Mini 493: Methodical Mafia - Game Over!


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Post Post #75 (ISO) » Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:13 pm

Post by Mr. Flay »

LoudmouthLee wrote:
Mr. Flay wrote:
Speak English or Die, Lee.
I can't even figure out what you're upset
about
. So you really expect us to believe that Methodical Mafia includes a one-shot Watcher role? (I never said Cop, I'm not sure where you're coming from there). The only possible use for that role is to be a mass target N1, which, conveniently, you suggested RIGHT out of the gate. Forgive me if I'm a little bit suspicious... :roll:
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Okay, that was painful. Let me reread, regroup, and hopefully come back with something more intelligent later tonight...

I can't think Glork would be so ostentatious about his randomness if he knew he was scum, which makes it seem more like suboptimal protown play. Still aggravating, for all the reasons Seol already mentioned (I can tell this is going to be a hard game not to "me too" in...)
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Post Post #76 (ISO) » Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:32 pm

Post by ojpower »

Mr. Flay, you need to change your avatar.
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Post Post #77 (ISO) » Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:30 pm

Post by Mr Stoofer »

Mr Stoofer wrote:[13] Remember, it’s a game and it’s supposed to be fun. Be nice to your fellow players and your mod. I have zero tolerance for abusive posts.
Those of you who have who have played in my games before will know that I mean it when I say that have have zero tolerance for abusive posts. I regard post 52 as unacceptable and posts 62 and 71 as borderline. I trust you'll all keep Rule [13] firmly in mind for the remainder of the game. Thank you.
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Post Post #78 (ISO) » Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:35 pm

Post by Mr Stoofer »

On a lighter note, I have slightly revised "How to play Methodical Mafia":
To help you formulate your lists, I will open the thread and start “Day 0” once I have sent out all the role PMs. Day 0 will last for about 7 days and during that time you may discuss strategy and ask any questions you may have. There will be no lynch on Day 0.
All lists must be sent to me before the end of Day 0.
We will then go to Night 1, which will last only so long as it takes me to process the lists.
Now that everyone has checked in, I am going to set the deadline for Day 0 as
12 noon BST on Friday 31st August
. All lists must be sent to me by then.
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Post Post #79 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:50 am

Post by Xdaamno »

Glork wrote: Xdaamno: I'm not sure why you've chosen to focus on the case of a
Doctor
randomizing choices. Anyway, to answer your question -- the Doctor's job would be to predict the scums' targets each night, and to try to protect against their kills. There's a pretty massive WIFOM game going on, so I fail to see how carefully choosing a list D0 would really be all that beneficial for a Doctor anyway. As far as other roles go, they fall into a similar situation, especially with roles that involve information. Of the most "typical" roles, the Roleblocker is probably the one that I think matters the least. I have no idea how I would go about choosing my list if I were a Roleblocker. I donno... it seems to me that all of the town's lists are going to be underinformed, whereas the scums will have at least a decent idea of how to lay out their gameplan. I'd like to try to throw a wrench into that potential gameplan, if possible.
I assumed the randomization was some form of counter to the scum outguessing you? The doctor is the only role that directly counters the scum (Or atleast I didn't take into account the RB at the time), so I just assumed that'd be what would be randomized.
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Post Post #80 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:29 am

Post by ojpower »

The mafia and SK are obviously not going to target the same people we all agree to target, right?

Hmm.
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Post Post #81 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:40 am

Post by Seol »

ojpower wrote:The mafia and SK are obviously not going to target the same people we all agree to target, right?

Hmm.
Wait, what?

Agree to target? With the possible exception of my plan, why would anyone reveal who they're intending to target?
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Until one man hangs by his neck, by half this curs'd town's will[/i]
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Post Post #82 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:49 am

Post by Xdaamno »

(And what's wrong with Flay's avatar?)
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Post Post #83 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:49 am

Post by ojpower »

Targeted people die, right?

Why wouldn't you reveal who you want to target?

With so many possible kills, wouldn't having all the townies target the same person work the best? Also, having a doctor protect that person would really limit the kills...
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Post Post #84 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:50 am

Post by ojpower »

-off subject- Flay's avatar shouldn't appear to look like some old man who's in his 60's. I'm sure he's a lot younger than that, unless there are 60 year olds on Mafiascum.
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Post Post #85 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:54 am

Post by Mr Stoofer »

Anyone who wants to discuss avatars in this thread rather than play this game can just PM and I'll replace them immediately. Or just post some more comments about avatars in this thread, and I'll do the same.
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Post Post #86 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:57 am

Post by Xdaamno »

Hm, sorry.
ojpower wrote: Targeted people die, right?

Why wouldn't you reveal who you want to target?
Think about this. The mafia and SK are anti-town. They do not wish for the town to have much info, they'd rather keep it to themselves, tie everyone in knots, and win.

What possible gain could they achieve from letting everyone else know their plan?
ojpower wrote: With so many possible kills, wouldn't having all the townies target the same person work the best? Also, having a doctor protect that person would really limit the kills...
... The townie's don't target anyone, this isn't texas justice. :|
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Post Post #87 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:08 am

Post by distad »

Hmmm... regarding LML's theory...

what are the odds of having a mafia watcher?

I mean, if that's the case, proposing his theory makes complete sense. Town powers would waste the N1 picks on someone who certainly would NOT be scum-targeted, AND scum would know who the power roles are...
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Post Post #88 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:25 am

Post by ojpower »

Alright, I see what you all are saying.
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Post Post #89 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:12 am

Post by Xdaamno »

distad, I'd say the chance of a mafia watcher in this game would be
smaller
than the average chance of having a watcher in any other game (Due to the list-orientated play, which a watcher can't have much foresight on); or atleast there's no evidence to suggest there would be one.
distad wrote: I mean, if that's the case, proposing his theory makes complete sense. Town powers would waste the N1 picks on someone who certainly would NOT be scum-targeted, AND scum would know who the power roles are...
If vanilla townies don't have any lists to make, then his theory can't make sense (And they don't).
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Post Post #90 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:40 am

Post by Mr. Flay »

Argh! Could we STOP with the claims please???
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Post Post #91 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:48 am

Post by Seol »

ojpower wrote:Targeted people die, right?
Please explain exactly how you came to be under this impression.
[i]The hungry maw of Twilight snaps, but shall not have its fill,
Until one man hangs by his neck, by half this curs'd town's will[/i]
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Post Post #92 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:56 am

Post by Xdaamno »

Mr. Flay wrote:Argh! Could we STOP with the claims please???
...

Overreaction, but I guess it won't help to talk about it anymore.
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Post Post #93 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:04 pm

Post by ojpower »

Seol wrote:
ojpower wrote:Targeted people die, right?
Please explain exactly how you came to be under this impression.
Sorry, I was reading the rules, and I thought maybe all roles could target, since the front page role PM example had like everything.

Misunderstanding.
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Post Post #94 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:37 pm

Post by BrianMcQueso »

LML's role is sketchy (brilliant insight, eh?) While a tracker with a one-use self-target is realistic as a role, I'd say it's also somewhat unlikely. Enabling pre-list discussion combined with the ability to target oneself a single time conveniently leads to the exact plan LML has proposed. If genuine, it could be potentially game-breaking. I'm skeptical that a moderator would include a specific role function that would essentially end the game before the first lynch.

Target lists should not be random. Day 0 is a huge boon to creating your targeting list. A cop can start with the scummiest person and work their way down towards the townliest. A doctor should pick a few of the townliest players to protect, and have some repeat protections (if the doctor does not, and the Mafia missed a kill, then they could reasonably assume that their target is less likely to receive protection the next night. Of course, now that I've brought this to everyone's attention, I've opened a big bottle of WIFOM, and the doctor should protect however the heck they damn well feel they should). Without the benefit of Day 0, then everyone would be forced into random lists, but we have information to guide our choices now, no matter how limited it might be.

We were given two entire weeks for discussion, so let's make good use of that time and get a lot of information that will help our power roles. Day 0 should not be considered a kick-back day that doesn't really matter because there is no lynch. Day 0 could be the most significant day of the game.
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Post Post #95 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:46 pm

Post by Seol »

ojpower wrote:
Seol wrote:
ojpower wrote:Targeted people die, right?
Please explain exactly how you came to be under this impression.
Sorry, I was reading the rules, and I thought maybe all roles could target, since the front page role PM example had like everything.

Misunderstanding.
It's not the roles targetting that confuses me. It's the "targetted people die" bit that confuses me. What gave you that idea?

Also what in the front page role PM example mentions anything about targetting, let alone dying?
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Until one man hangs by his neck, by half this curs'd town's will[/i]
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Post Post #96 (ISO) » Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:32 pm

Post by ojpower »

Well, mostly Texas Jestice NYPD type games.

Are you trying to go somewhere? It's not working.

Well, I obviously read the rules wrong. My apologies. It does say target, though. I guess I shouldn't skim things like that.
Mr Stoofer wrote:
How to play Methodical Mafia


Instead of submitting choices each night, during Night 1 all players with night choices must send me a list of all their targets for the entire game. On Night 1, your target will be the first player on your list.
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Post Post #97 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:22 am

Post by Seol »

ojpower wrote:Well, mostly Texas Jestice NYPD type games.
What's this game got to do with Texas Justice games? Have you been involved in a lot of Texas Justice games in the past, or come from an environment where it's a common archetype of game? Was there something about this game that lead to to confuse it with Texas Justice?
ojpower wrote:Well, I obviously read the rules wrong. My apologies. It does say target, though. I guess I shouldn't skim things like that.
Ah, sorry, when you said the role PM example I thought you meant the role PM example, not the game blurb. Yes, it does mention targetting there.
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Until one man hangs by his neck, by half this curs'd town's will[/i]
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Post Post #98 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:33 am

Post by Erg0 »

BrianMcQueso wrote:LML's role is sketchy (brilliant insight, eh?) While a tracker with a one-use self-target is realistic as a role, I'd say it's also somewhat unlikely. Enabling pre-list discussion combined with the ability to target oneself a single time conveniently leads to the exact plan LML has proposed. If genuine, it could be potentially game-breaking. I'm skeptical that a moderator would include a specific role function that would essentially end the game before the first lynch.

Target lists should not be random. Day 0 is a huge boon to creating your targeting list. A cop can start with the scummiest person and work their way down towards the townliest. A doctor should pick a few of the townliest players to protect, and have some repeat protections (if the doctor does not, and the Mafia missed a kill, then they could reasonably assume that their target is less likely to receive protection the next night. Of course, now that I've brought this to everyone's attention, I've opened a big bottle of WIFOM, and the doctor should protect however the heck they damn well feel they should). Without the benefit of Day 0, then everyone would be forced into random lists, but we have information to guide our choices now, no matter how limited it might be.

We were given two entire weeks for discussion, so let's make good use of that time and get a lot of information that will help our power roles. Day 0 should not be considered a kick-back day that doesn't really matter because there is no lynch. Day 0 could be the most significant day of the game.
I can think of a good reason why a tracker role would be included, but not so much for a watcher.

A formulaic approach to target lists (e.g. BMQ's suggestions above) will work better for some roles than others.

For roles that interact with the scum directly or indirectly (e.g. doctor, roleblocker) the individual with the role really needs to make the decision for themselves regarding what method to apply. Simply protecting the towniest players first allows the scum to get free kills on the scummy-looking players early in the game if they choose to take that path with their list. The counter-scum are playing double-bluff as much as anything. I'd probably advocate a weighted random approach, where certain players (e.g the most townie for the doctor) are preferred, but there is still an element of unpredictability in the selection process.

A cop, on the other hand, can and should investigate players in order from most to least scummy. Presumably scum can only stop the cop's investigation by finding the cop themselves, not by finding their targets. Hence, no need to take probable scum actions into account.
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Post Post #99 (ISO) » Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:38 am

Post by Mr Stoofer »

Please not the following clarification:
Mr Stoofer wrote:
How to play Methodical Mafia


Instead of submitting choices each night, during Night 1 all players with night choices must send me a list of all their targets for the entire game . On Night 1, your target will be the first player on your list. On Night 2 your target will be the next player on your list, and so on.
If the next player on your list was dead when the Night began
, I will ignore their name and go down to the next name, and so on until I get to a living player. Once I get to the end of the list, I will start again at the top of the list.
Last edited by Mr Stoofer on Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

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