Mini Normal 2316 | Halloween | Endgame

[Black]

Hi :3

I will catch up later

[Black]

Oh god now I have to scum read black.

Catch me if you can

[Black]

Wow I just replaced and I already sniped the mod

[Black]

Aren't you the one trying to catch in this gif? Much to think about.

I mean yes but really it just looks like we're fighting

Are you town this game Shea?

[Black]

Haven't you rolled scum in like 4 straight games or something

[Black]

Ah jeez, it’s like a whole new game with all these replacements—nice to see you though, Black.

Hi Annie

[Black]

Yeah I'm reading that the same way you are

Ok I guess I'll read now

[Black]

Spoiler: Page 1

18 is like the 5th vote on my slot and 20 feels a little performative

I like Annie and DE voting Wartortle here

Spoiler: Page 2

I'm not really a fan of python's 26. It indicates to me they think there's more than a random chance of my slot being scum based on 5 which doesn't feel like a real read. This post gives me pockety vibes too

The questioning in 27 feels good from DE70

Python not elaborating whatsover in 30 feels weird considering they did a quick reread of my slot's other game and should be able to point out

something

here

35 same Annie

DE70 feels townie on this page

Spoiler: Page 3

I don't like DE70 saying he's just going to openwolf this game

65 DE70 voting for someone he thinks is townie just so he can openwolf is kinda

Naerys just hopping on a wagon and putting it to e-2 with nothing original to say in 68 and 69

I kinda like THS's response in 70

Spoiler: Page 4

In 93 DE70 says he's voting for THS because he made a bad case, when originally he was just voting for him because he townread him and wanted to openwolf. Also like why is THS sus for making a "bad case" on page 3? I feel like townies do that quite often

I like that Smiley is picking up on this as well in 96

Not liking 98 and 99 from DE70 either. My early townread here has quickly faded. 98 in particular I don't like how he called his vote in 65 a real vote when in the same breath he also said THS is probably town

Spoiler: Page 5

My read on Wartortle is much closer to Annie's here than DE70's

I kinda like 116 from THS. A lot of his posts just feel genuine so far

More openwolf comments in 119. Not sure if this is still a joke or if DE70 is super analyzing his own posts and thinks he's acting scummy

Python feels a little better on this page I guess

Spoiler: Page 6

125 I'm kinda feeling this too

127 feels very honest. Annie feels town here

I don't like DE70's questioning of Annie in 134. Like it kinda just feels like DE70 is doing exactly what he was accusing Smiley of doing earlier - reaching. These questions don't really feel like an attempt to sort Annie, rather a way to try and get him to say more suspicious stuff. Idk if I'm reading that right but it's the vibe I'm getting

I love 136 from Annie, in particular it feels like we're on the same page re: DE70

138 -- Can we just fade DE70 for intentionally playing scummy? This is annoying lol. This also feels like an overreaction to Annie calling him sus

I don't really like 140 from BlackStar. Also the Smiley and THS scumreads in 144 are ???

Spoiler: Page 7

I like OWER's 157

DE70 not pursuing his Smiley read because two other people said he felt townie with very little evidence feels weird

I'm not vibing with THS's self-vote in 168. Like the frustration doesn't really feel super real here

[Black]

That was kind of tiring and took longer than I thought so I might switch up the format for the remaining pages. Need some lunch for now

[Black]

Hi Enchant :3

[Black]

Why am I scum?

[Black]

Ok I have read the remaining pages

AnimatedWizard [4] : OutWorldER, Hu Tao, BlackStar, Roden

I think Annie feels pretty townie this game and I hate this wagon composition. OWER has been fine I think but I haven't liked much from the other 3 slots here. Hu Tao isn't doing anything, BlackStar seems to just be pushing things along in a really agenda driven way and I think his vote is the worst on the wagon, and then DE70 has pinged me quite a bit this game. With DE70 though I think I'm willing to hold off there for now. I have a history of not really liking his posts ever so I need to check my bias there

I would be ok voting for Hu/BS, but I think I want to sheep Shea right now. I agree that something feels off about about Wartortle. I don't like how he has interacted with the game so far and his townread on Wiz feels a little too on-the-fence for me with the constant repeating of how baffling his posts feel and how he could be newbscum. 333 doesn't feel good either

VOTE: Wartortle

[Black]

Ok I have read the remaining pages

AnimatedWizard [4] : OutWorldER, Hu Tao, BlackStar, Roden

I think Annie feels pretty townie this game and I hate this wagon composition. OWER has been fine I think but I haven't liked much from the other 3 slots here. Hu Tao isn't doing anything, BlackStar seems to just be pushing things along in a really agenda driven way and I think his vote is the worst on the wagon, and then DE70 has pinged me quite a bit this game. With DE70 though I think I'm willing to hold off there for now. I have a history of not really liking his posts ever so I need to check my bias there

I would be ok voting for Hu/BS, but I think I want to sheep Shea right now. I agree that something feels off about about Wartortle. I don't like how he has interacted with the game so far and his townread on Wiz feels a little too on-the-fence for me with the constant repeating of how baffling his posts feel and how he could be newbscum. 333 doesn't feel good either

VOTE: Wartortle

yeah my read on ani is fence-sitty cuz i can’t read him but i was also p strongly townreading him earlier

Doesn't really seem like it to me

81 you said his post was "absolutely transparent scum buddying"
You ride the fence in 82
In 184 you said "Wiz could be scum" was the "least spicy take I have seen in my life"
186 you give a definitive "Wiz is town" for some reason
In 333 you say you don't know Annie well so you're down to vote for him, despite townreading him?
You ride the fence more in 364

To me your read here seems really flip-floppy and not in a natural townie way trying to figure him out. It feels like you have an agenda

[Black]

I agree with OWER that 402 and 404 feel kinda performative in a scummy way

[Black]

No it wasn't.

I didn't say it was, I said it felt that way to me

I also feel like you keep doing things that naturally get townread (ie self-voting, OMGUS voting) but they don't really feel natural to me. You're either a townie that can't hold your emotions in check or you're scum trying desperately to be townread

[Black]

Outworld might be a town fool but I expect you to know better

Who are you again? I don't think we've met

[Black]

UNVOTE: THS

So far I have little to no confidence in this town

Enchant says its Smiley, I think it could be Annie, DE thought it was Annie, Black thinks it was DE, I don't think its Wartortle, Status and Annie say its Wartortle, Wartortle says it's not Annie. Who is wrong here and who is leading us off the track?

Like these posts feel weird considering you're impulse voting yourself and others. If you are actually town here then I think you are part of the problem tbh

[Black]

I think I'm leaning scum for you here

[Black]

Hmmm. A quick skim over Steady's scum game here and I'm not seeing many similarities. I'm not going to rule out the possibility of Steady!scum based on a meta read but his play here seems less involved and thoughtful, like maybe he's more of a tryhard as scum? Would like to read a town game of his next

[Black]

Steady's town game here feels more in line with his behavior this game. Slightly defensive, frustrated, annoyed. In his scum game it felt like he was more level-headed and played a type of mediator role. Obviously this doesn't mean much since I think good players can mimic their town game as scum, but I felt like pointing it out

[Black]

Hmmm. A quick skim over Steady's scum game here and I'm not seeing many similarities. I'm not going to rule out the possibility of Steady!scum based on a meta read but his play here seems less involved and thoughtful, like maybe he's more of a tryhard as scum? Would like to read a town game of his next

I probably shouldn't be like this, but I'm pissy about being misread because in 1092 I had generally accurate reads but couldn't get enough grip on the game state because people wouldn't stop calling me scum

I understand this feeling and I get this way as town sometimes. This feels genuine enough

I think I'm comfortable leaning slightly town on you with this new information in my head

[Black]

Black spittin hard holy hell

Why do you think 5 is more likely to come from scum?

[Black]

I was looking for any indication that 26, 28, and 30 were real thoughts but I don't think I'm going to get that

[Black]

I was looking for any indication that 26, 28, and 30 were real thoughts but I don't think I'm going to get that

Do you think we'd make "non-real" thoughts as scum there?

-A

I think you could, yeah. It's a little bit different but one of your first posts in F&I was asking mala who her scum partner was because you were suspicious of her. You are more than capable of faking a thought as scum here imo

[Black]

I vibe with Black's entrance here.

What does your readslist look like?

[Black]

No u

Wanna join us on the Wartortle wagon?

[Black]

Python what was the point of 441? Do you have a read on Wartortle?

[Black]

What big fights?

You don't have any read on Wartortle this game?

[Black]

What is bothering me about python is that they say they mentally checked out from the game once Wiz vs. DE started happening, but I'm not noticing a difference in their posts pre and post DE/Wiz. They have pretty much the same attitude towards the game in regards to giving minimal reads and sheeping people

Like it kinda just seems like an excuse not to give reads or really play the game, especially considering the DE/Wiz argument wasn't nasty at all but rather fairly civil, so why did the walls take an emotional toll on python? Why did they accuse DE70 of tunneling in 226 if they didn't even read the walls they posted?

I'm willing to give python the benefit of the doubt if they are actually not feeling this game but something feels weird about how they have managed to position themselves on certain wagons while not actually doing much

[Black]

I don't really know how to feel about python. Does anyone else have any reads on them?

@Smiley why is python your top townread?

[Black]

Annie can you point out specific questions that make you think they are trying to sort people

[Black]

I think black is town but I am noticing a lack of sharpness pointed at me in particular which is my only nagging doubt there right now.

Sharpness?

[Black]

You have never liked it when I don't engage with you a lot. But yeah you seem kinda town

[Black]

I still don't really know what you're getting at XD

I kinda want to let you cook tbh

[Black]

This is what I mean Black. Granted, I was scum when I said this but it was still a true observation on my part

Ok thanks for clarifying, I think I get it. I don't really think you are a baddie this game but I'm not opposed to stabbing you later if I have to

Oh wrong sharp

[Black]

This feels opportunistic to me. You're casting shade on them without explicitly saying that you think they're scum which will make it easy to hop on the wagon later if it gains momentum

Huh? Why would he explicitly say he thinks their scum if he doesn't think that? Did you read his post or?

[Black]

I feel like it would be way easier and less suspicious if I just… said I wasn’t sure about Python in the first place here, instead of going, “I really trust them, oh wait, never mind.”

I don't think changing your opinion based on new information is inherently scummy

[Black]

BlackStar just seems to be reaching here but it also could be conf bias

[Black]

This feels opportunistic to me. You're casting shade on them without explicitly saying that you think they're scum which will make it easy to hop on the wagon later if it gains momentum

Huh? Why would he explicitly say he thinks their scum if he doesn't think that? Did you read his post or?

I said that it seems like he's setting the scene to hop on the wagon later on. That's why his post was negative towards python but ended with him putting them down as null. He's sitting on the fence and seeing how things play out

I did something similar yesterday when I reevaluated my Steady read after looking at his past games, but you said you liked my posts. Did you like my posts just because everyone else did? I feel like if you're town here then you would have questioned my Steady stance a little more

[Black]

P.E.: I think BlackStar is town—this feels like him last game

I agree with this and that's kinda why I'm thinking this could be conf bias

[Black]

To be clear I agree it feels kinda like him last game but I wouldn't say I think he's town

[Black]

Ok, that's fair. I still think it's not unreasonable for Annie to put python in the null pile after townreading them and then finding out his main reason for townreading them wasn't really accurate

[Black]

What do your reads look like BlackStar

[Black]

Town Lean

TheHoldSteady
Roden
OutworldER
Thestatusquo
Black

Null

Wartortle
usesPython
Hu Tao
Smiley
Enchant
Naerys

Scum Lean

AnimatedWiz

Thanks. Can you talk about your Smiley read a little?

[Black]

Ok, I'm fine with that answer for now, in particular the "long posts that aren't directed at us"...I can relate to that

[Black]

As a member of the town, I am interested in everyone's biggest scumread at the moment

I've learned the less I talk the less i get scumread.

These feel a little too conspicuous to be scum?

Hu do you have a scum game on MS

[Black]

blackstar's analysis on page 19 is questionable but it only's really AI if he's wolf w/me and obviously he's not

What is the point of this post

[Black]

@mod: I am voting for Wartortle

fixed
-dann

[Black]

I've learned the less I talk the less i get scumread.

Does it actually work ._.

Hi. I hope your surgery went well. Are you caught up with the game?

[Black]

I've learned the less I talk the less i get scumread.

Does it actually work ._.

Hi. I hope your surgery went well. Are you caught up with the game?

Hello, i was released bit later than i expected, but i am doing fine. And yes, i am caught up.

I'm glad to hear it went well. Who do you think is scum?

[Black]

I think either Hu Tao or Roden who are sitting on Animated wagon, might be scum. From Ani i get townie vibes. I think scum is testing waters for easy lim.

What happened to your Wartortle scumread?

[Black]

I'm not sold on Naerys!scum but I think if Wartortle flips red then she could be a partner. Her putting Wartortle at the bottom of her readslist and then forgetting that she thinks he could be scum makes me feel like the read may have not been real. She didn't respond to my post asking her to join the Wartortle wagon and doesn't seem to be interested in voting there at all despite scumreading him. Like OWER mentioned I kinda want to give her the benefit of the doubt with the surgery and tiredness though

I've never played with Naerys but she's giving more LHF vibes than anything, and I don't mean that as an insult in any way. I think some players are just more likely to be pushed than others

[Black]

Spicy take...I think OWER could be scum here

[Black]

I don't really think OWER and Wartortle are scum together though

[Black]

Essentially your ISO looks like mine typically looked when I was new at playing scum

32 feels like a reach and 34 doesn't seem very consistent with 157. When you say things like "24 was really bad and I don't see town motivation for it" and "it really hits as a scum fretting over his appearance", I would expect you to be more wary of him, but instead you brush it off as "I'm not huge on DE" and you vote for Steady instead. I think this whole early sequence makes you and DE look paired

195 is something I did in my first few scumgames. You have stronger scumreads but you decide to park your vote on an inactive slot. You say you like "pressuring lurkers D1" which isn't necessarily scum indicative but it reminds me of myself before I learned to stop making these votes and trying to justify them. It just makes it seem like you are doing something without really having to do anything

I think scum are probably pushing Naerys this game and your shade in 241 feels like you are positioning yourself to vote there at some point

Like your whole early game feels relatively lurky yet you are still pushing things along. You say you're busy and you work a lot so I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt here

The vote on Annie in 247 feels opportunistic and when I read 266 I get the feeling that the whole "this is anti-town at best" is you committing to a vote here despite knowing Annie is town. You also had Annie as a strong townread earlier so it feels fake that this post alone would put them at the bottom of your list. Then you say this:

It does not help that your "theory" reads a lot like you actively shading Naerys without actually committing to a read on the slot. It reads like scum poisoning the well rather than a town that's solving.

Which reminds me of the stance you took on Naerys right beforehand:

That said I'm also a little bit weird on Naerys at this point as I find it strange that she brings up post 20 as her reason for SRing Wartortle but only started pushing that read recently. I don't feel like that lines up with Naerys own opening in 39 and 41.

It's just strange that you find Annie scummy for essentially doing the same thing as you which was shading Naerys and not committing to a read

Your readslist in 291 feels weird. I don't think you've mentioned or interacted with DE or Steady at all since your early vote/scumread on them. Now suddenly they are at the top of your list? That doesn't feel real to me. Like there's no progression here at all to indicate that these are real reads

Your vote for Steady in 419 doesn't track with your readslist and your unvote in 552 based on a weak meta read that I made makes me feel like you have no conviction in anything you are saying or doing. You just seem all over the place and pushing things to see what sticks. It feels really agenda-driven imo

And then finally your vote for Wartortle just now gives opportunistic vibes as well since pressure has shifted from Annie/Steady to Wartortle

Everything just seems fake to me, and after looking over your ISO in more detail I think I would be fine fading you or Wartortle today tbh. I don't really think you two are paired because I think you could have continued to TR him safely here instead of trying to bus, so I really need to decide which of you two is more likely to be scum here

[Black]

Eh, I guess Wartortle and OWER could be paired. There isn't much harm in putting him to e-4 here and having his wagon run alongside Annie's

[Black]

DE, THS, Wartortle <-- Townreads
Smiley <-- Townlean
Naerys, Python <-- Null
Enchant <-- Scumlean
You, Hu Tao <-- Scumreads

Like DE, THS, and Wartortle being your only townreads here just can't be real. You have voted for all 3 of them and called them scum at different points in the Day. And yeah reads change but you had the confidence to put them in the townREAD pile, not even townlean or null. In DE's case you voted for him before this list and you actually expressed a progression on him why you started to TR him, but you voted for THS and Wartortle after this list and I feel like the reasons weren't anywhere close to strong enough to drop them from a solid townread to scumread. It feels fabricated

[Black]

I think we should vote between OWER and Wartortle today in case that isn't obvious

[Black]

Roden seems to have siteflaked and I kinda wanted to give DE's replacement time to cook before we yeeted them, but I do agree DE's posts were questionable enough that I could probably go there if need be

[Black]

Not getting amazing vibes from Roden’s catch-up, but I’ll have to provide details later this morning.

I'm feeling this too

I'd be ok with a Roden vote

[Black]

OWER's responses to me and other people over the last few pages are fine enough to where I think I'd rather fade Wartortle or Roden instead

[Black]

kinda want to lim usesPython for that fucking spamfest.

kinda surprised you reacted like this given that you've played with Ranger before without complaining about the spam

I don't really mind the spam but I don't think Ranger typically posts 15 readslists in a row. You can correct me if I'm wrong

[Black]

Python do you have any specifics about your OWER TR that you're willing to share?

[Black]

I'm not sold on Naerys!scum but I think if Wartortle flips red then she could be a partner. Her putting Wartortle at the bottom of her readslist and then forgetting that she thinks he could be scum makes me feel like the read may have not been real. She didn't respond to my post asking her to join the Wartortle wagon and doesn't seem to be interested in voting there at all despite scumreading him. Like OWER mentioned I kinda want to give her the benefit of the doubt with the surgery and tiredness though

I've never played with Naerys but she's giving more LHF vibes than anything, and I don't mean that as an insult in any way. I think some players are just more likely to be pushed than others

didn't i push naerys tho

Why should this clear her as your partner?

[Black]

Deadline is in 2 days. Still plenty of time but we should start thinking about consolidating wagons

[Black]

I agree!

We should vote black as soon as possible!

I had to check and yeah your unexplained vote on me from 4 days ago is still there

You're useless

[Black]

Nuclear vibe read: Enchant might be scum

Nah I'm low-key feeling this too but I have no confidence in that read

[Black]

i never said that it clears me but it certainly makes me less likely to be her partner and i find it strange you didn't mention that

I completely disagree with the assessment that you pushing her makes her less likely to be your partner

[Black]

hm maybe it's a difference in philosophy of scumhunting but i still find it bad that you didn't mention that at all

What do you mean by bad? Scummy? And why would I mention it if I don't believe it to be true?

[Black]

Unless you mean you find it bad that I didn't mention you pushing her, which rereading that's probably what you meant. It's fairly common around here for scum partners to push each other early and I do it when I'm scum pretty often. I didn't bring it up because I don't think you pushing her makes it any less/more likely you are paired and it would just be fluff text

[Black]

Explain maybe?

Your vote on Naerys feels opportunistic. When reading your catchup post it feels like you mainly scumread her for having bad reads which isn't even really scum indicative. When I compare your read on her to OWER and to an extent BlackStar I feel like your vote should have gone to one of the latter two, but instead it goes on Naerys who just so happens to be one of the leading wagons

Nothing in your catchup gave me enough town vibes to make me reconsider my scumlean on DE

Initially I had an issue with your readslist because I thought it was ordered and that didn't match your reads but looking at it in more detail, it seems like you just threw names into the piles without ordering them. Correct me if I'm wrong here

[Black]

n the mean time, can I get a quick summary of why Wartortle has so many votes

371
416
556

And python's vote is unexplained

[Black]

As far as opportunism, I don't really understand this point. If I'm scum making up scum reads, voting Wartortle is the optimal play regardless of his alignment. If he's town, he's a much better vote than Naerys since that furthers the gap from my own potential wagon, and if Naerys is also town who is LHF then I'd want to keep her around for the next Day phase. If Wartortle is scum, the best play is for us to commit to scum theatre so one of us gains town cred if the other flips.

I was assuming your vote was based on the first 15 pages, but if you checked the most recent vote count and voted accordingly then that kinda feels weird to me. Why not wait until you have read the other half of the game before voting? Like I can see town motivation for wanting to check the vote count I guess but it also feels a little slimy

If you are scum and Wartortle is town, he's a much better pocket target than Naerys imo. He seems to put more thought into the game than she does and I think having him townread you back would be more beneficial to you than Naerys TRing you

If you are both scum then I agree some theatre would be a good play, but it's not the only play. You being the 5th vote on his wagon would almost certainly be his demise, whereas now you have brought the wagons much closer together

[Black]

I'm not sure why you interpret my post as shading. I was elaborating on my opportunism read since Roden didn't understand it. I don't need any extra justification to "hop on a Roden wagon." I've been pretty transparent with my DE/Roden read

[Black]

Why are you ignoring the context? Roden gave his opinion on what his best play as scum would be depending on Wartortle's alignment. I didn't really agree with his logic in the WIFOM and responded accordingly

[Black]

Also how does that logic apply to Annie when Annie has had Roden as his top SR and isn't even voting for Wartortle?

[Black]

Why are you ignoring the context? Roden gave his opinion on what his best play as scum would be depending on Wartortle's alignment. I didn't really agree with his logic in the WIFOM and responded accordingly

The context of how you got to that convo is fine, it's the vibe when you're giving the read that's off

The vibe that I think Roden could be scum? My posts should have given you that vibe long before that one

[Black]

Why are you ignoring the context? Roden gave his opinion on what his best play as scum would be depending on Wartortle's alignment. I didn't really agree with his logic in the WIFOM and responded accordingly

The context of how you got to that convo is fine, it's the vibe when you're giving the read that's off

Like the way you talk about wartles alignment feels aggressively neutral for someone that's your top scumread

I just don't understand this. It really feels like you are ignoring the context. Roden and I were both speaking in a hypothetical scum!Roden world and discussing his play based on a town and scum Wartortle

[Black]

I don't really have an emotional attachment to my Wartortle SR. Like I still think he could flip town. Even if I did I wouldn't expect it to be super transparent in a hypothetical like that

I think this vibe read is probably genuine from you

[Black]

You're...scum reading me for checking the VC?

Do I really need to explain why I would need to check the latest VC before making a vote? I don't want my vote on one of my town reads, and I don't want to accidentally hammer a player or even put them at E-1 without intent

It was the fact that you checked the VC and decided to vote for Naerys when to me it felt like your OWER SR was stronger. You say you don't really want to start a new wagon but I can't help that it felt a little opportunistic

Also, why would I vote later after reading the rest of the game? I explicitly said I was going to go off of the information I had from the first 15 pages and play in the present, and then read the rest during the night phase. There is no "voting later", especially when the vote deadline is so close

I actually missed the part where you said you would catch up with the rest at Night

What makes you think I’m trying to pocket a town!Wartortle? I haven't even interacted with him, not even when he quoted me. I haven't done anything to influence him in particular to town read me, so this accusation feels off

I don't really think you're trying to pocket him but if you are scum and he's town then that's my best guess as to why you would TR him here. I don't think a pocket attempt has to involve a lot of interactions. I think a slight defense of the slot plus a townread is enough to make a town player think "hm maybe they are town since they're right about me"

Yes, being the 5th vote on Wartortle would almost certainly be his demise...which is why I said I would vote him if we were both scum. I'm not sure what your argument is here

I think scum like to try and pseudo-bus D1 instead of full sending it. A distancing type thing. Voting him here wouldn't be that great of a play if you are both scum imo when you could just as easily make Naerys an equally possible fade

Kinda feels like you're working backwards from your scum read on me to look for reasons to justify it here

It could be a little conf bias, sure. I'll reevaluate at some point

[Black]

Well, large boulder with number 244 is finally off my shoulders.
Looking at the timer here, we should try to consolidate on a elim.

Feel free to put Wartortle at E-1

[Black]

Can we talk about how it's not fun to play with Enchant

[Black]

And it sucks because they replace into every game they can just to troll

[Black]

I mean it's just Enchant really. At least Not_Mafia keeps to himself for the most part. Enchant just fills the thread with nonsense and then hammers

I guess it's kinda on me for encouraging the E-1. I wasn't thinking about Enchant

[Black]

Anyway i agree that Enchant should be the suspect for tomorrow.

maybe black who assumed i am TROLL and not mafia getting elims i want?

I didn't assume. You are a troll, regardless of your alignment

[Black]

Nah, it slipped my mind. I've been trying to get Naerys to vote Wartortle for a hot minute because I thought her reluctance there was odd

[Black]

Why should acknowledging when someone makes interesting remark be a scumtell?

i don't think you actually believe it. i don't think that scum black ever does this or that scum will ever do this in general and i think you know it

Tbf setting up an Enchant hammer would be a smart move if I were scum, but I'm town here and I just fucked up by not thinking about them. I wanted to get a claim out of you and in hindsight the correct play would have been to do that at e-2 with Enchant in the game. I'm sorry

[Black]

I mean, I’ve seen how effective Enchant in the late game can be—they’re no slouch once they’re able to have a lot of information. And still, they did provide their reads and information through D1 here—not really a troll, just someone who obfuscates a lot to ensure they make it deep into the game.

I do think D1 tends to be a drag for a lot of people, though—so many vibes to comb through, and so little mech to help sort it out. Might as well make it a little more fun to have the will to keep playing, y’know?

Meh. I find Enchant's way of having fun to be annoying and a hindrance. To each their own I guess

[Black]

Status seems towny. On the other side, Black needs some investigation.

Come at me sis

[Black]

Ayyy the protective/block role is goated, whoever you are!

7 to eliminate. Let's not get anyone to 6 unless we want them faded yeah?

[Black]

VOTE: Naerys

I don't like her positioning after the flip and this was Wartortle's top SR

[Black]

VOTE: Black
Positioning? WTF?
You are the one who goaded me into voting, which i unfortunately fell for

I mean you said it was the best course of action so it sounds like you would have voted there anyway? I don't see how that makes me scummy fypov

Are you going to make a case against me or is this all you have?

[Black]

If you are town here then you need to consider the fact that I was trying to get you on the Wartortle wagon long before EOD (see 460) and my motivation for that was because I thought you two could be paired (see 557)

I will admit it was my mistake for not considering Enchant but you should only think I planned the Enchant hammer if you think I'm scummy outside of that. So make your case

[Black]

Naery's reaction to the no flip feels pretty like the kind of reaction I've seen from scum on no flips.

Yeah 814 feels pretty bad to me

[Black]

So Enchant is the Naerys partner

Enchant feels kinda annoyed and frustrated here compared to how frivolous he was D1. I would probably feel this way too if my kill didn't go through

GGEZ

[Black]

I kinda want to go Enchant before Naerys tbh. I think he might flip red regardless of what she flips. If she is town then Enchant seems informed of her alignment. He's subtly defending her here which probably indicates a pockety type thing going on

[Black]

VOTE: Enchant

[Black]

Naery's offense feels real tho.

Or, more accurately I feel like she wouldn't try to fake this particular emotion if she were scum in this spot.

That's kinda the vibes I'm getting

[Black]

I think all reactions sucked.

OH MY WHY THERE'S NO KILL IT WAS PROBABLY DOC/ROLEBLOCKER?

Drop this topic, i don't really care why it happened.

Fun fact: congratulating doc on noflip is also scumtell.

These posts gave me those vibes. We pointed out Naerys's bad reaction and Enchant pulls the ALL LIVES MATTER card. Then he frustratingly tells us to drop the topic, and then tries to turn the attention back to me by shading me for congratulating the Doc/RB

I feel like if Enchant were town here then he wouldn't be so quick to try and alleviate pressure off of Naerys. It's not the best read ever but it's the vibes I got in the moment

[Black]

I wanted to open with vote on Smiley.

I also think this post is really weird, like Enchant looked back over his ISO and remembered he called Smiley scum at the end of D1 and felt like bringing this up in case anyone pointed it out

[Black]

It has nothing to do with ego, but rather making sure your reads and actions are consistent with each other

[Black]

Like what was even the point of posting 833?

[Black]

Because people like you complain i do nothing and my reasoning is moon.

You don't strike me at the type of player to start doing stuff just because other people complain about your playstyle

[Black]

So Enchant is the Naerys partner

Enchant feels kinda annoyed and frustrated here compared to how frivolous he was D1. I would probably feel this way too if my kill didn't go through

GGEZ

You say Enchant is the one who feels annoyed and frustrated but Enchant wasn't the one who raged at another player and called them brainless.

The difference to me is that Shea can be pretty abrasive at times and he showed that somewhat with some of his arguments D1, whereas Enchant's attitude feels completely different than D1

[Black]

VOTE: Black
Positioning? WTF?
You are the one who goaded me into voting, which i unfortunately fell for

I mean you said it was the best course of action so it sounds like you would have voted there anyway? I don't see how that makes me scummy fypov

Are you going to make a case against me or is this all you have?

This feels subtly defensive

Sure, I can get defensive as town, but really I'm just trying to figure out if Naerys's read on me is real or not

[Black]

Enchant is starting to seem more like his town self to me. Meanwhile, I thought Status's push on Wartortle was the drizzling shits. That's where my vote is going.

VOTE: TheStatusQuo

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe Status is town and Enchant is scum

I don't really like this progression

Enchant/THS is my new solve

[Black]

Status's day one was really, really bad

but they seem town thus far here

dunno what to make of it

Why do you think Shea seem town here?

[Black]

Something about the hedginess feels unnatural to me

[Black]

Why do you think Shea seems town here?

[Black]

Hmm. Ok. That could be a real read

[Black]

whereas Enchant's attitude feels completely different than D1

Enchant hates D1. And does everything possible to make that stage as short as possible.
Cant blame Enchant for hating D1. I prefer later stages of game too.

You're implying here that he doesn't lolhammer on other days which isn't true. And wouldn't D1 go by faster if he actually tried to solve people and push things instead of whatever the heck he does?

Also you seem really familiar with Enchant so it feels strange that you blamed me for the lolhammer when you clearly forgot about him too

[Black]

I played with Enchant in large 244, which is recent experience. True, even there they lolhammered later in the game - and they were town. I dont think this is AI for Enchant, tbh.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the lolhammer is AI for him

whereas Enchant's attitude feels completely different than D1

Enchant hates D1. And does everything possible to make that stage as short as possible.
Cant blame Enchant for hating D1. I prefer later stages of game too.

You're implying here that he doesn't lolhammer on other days which isn't true. And wouldn't D1 go by faster if he actually tried to solve people and push things instead of whatever the heck he does?

Also you seem really familiar with Enchant so it feels strange that you blamed me for the lolhammer when you clearly forgot about him too

I blame you for manipulating me. Although i should blame myself more tbh

Manipulating you? You said voting Wartortle was the best course of action. Smh

My point is that if you're town then it doesn't make sense for you to think I'm lying about forgetting about Enchant's tendencies to lolhammer when you did it too

[Black]

Quick hammering day one is a play I would never make as scum because it's naturally going to bring negative attention to myself. Same with placing at e-1. So look in the middle of the bandwagon where your scum vote is not as likely to draw attention and you're more likely to find a scum.

Enchant will quick hammer as town or scum so you can't really use this logic on him

[Black]

VOTE: Black

Go on

[Black]

It just seems like you’re controlling the flow of the game more than anyone else. You were one of the people who pushed the Wartortle wagon through. As soon as the day started you worked to get the Naerys wagon going.

I post a lot, yeah, but I don't think that's scum indicative, especially for me. If I'm scum here then what would be the benefit of backing off of Naerys after I helped build the wagon?

You seem to make a lot of posts along the lines of “I think these people are partners, this looks like the solve” and the confidence behind those posts feels unearned.

There isn't confidence behind these posts

It feels like you just want to push lims through

If you're saying you think I'm trying to rush the day, that's just not true. I don't do that as scum or as town

[Black]

VOTE: Roden

Someone wagon this with me

[Black]

There's not much of one. DE70 didn't feel good to me and Roden doesn't feel much better. I touched on it a little in 669

[Black]

I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately

First of all...rude

Second, you think Naerys, OWER, and Enchant are all town? Because I know for a fact you don't. So why the shade?

[Black]

Like holy informed vibes Batman. Not only does it seem like you know I'm town here but I think you know the people I'm voting for are too

[Black]

Because I know for a fact you don't

huh?

Roden thinks you and OWER are scum but for some reason he seems to think I can't vote for scum

[Black]

I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately

First of all...rude

Second, you think Naerys, OWER, and Enchant are all town? Because I know for a fact you don't. So why the shade?

Who are you voting

You said I'm not capable of voting scum, which implies you don't think I've voted for scum this game. So yeah this is pure shade and I think you know I'm town

[Black]

Everyone hop on. I'm driving this wagon off the cliff

[Black]

That's 3 votes. Remember we stop at 6

[Black]

I'm telling you to stop fucking around with bad votes and pointless shade

It's Day 2 and you're voting someone you barely have a case on. Do you seriously have so little information that you can't formulate a legitimate case? Do you find it impossible to work with other people and try to reset after making a bad mis-elim go through?

Oh look, more shade. And you have the audacity to tell me not to shade

[Black]

I don't really give a fuck

[Black]

You're my problem. I will gladly take you up on a 1v1 and vote myself tomorrow if you're town here

[Black]

Woah calm down, Black

I mean the guy is purposely being snarky and rude just to piss me off and shade me. Mission accomplished. I'm not personally attacking him, I just said I don't give a fuck if he thinks my response is real or not

[Black]

I'm sorry but I can't stand the way people like Roden play the game. They weave little personal insults in their posts and then act holier than thou

[Black]

I'll be taking the night off from the thread but I want to see more votes on Roden please, not less

[Black]

Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky

I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated

Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip

And you're still doing that today

That's cap. I was clearly willing to re-evaluate in 697 and I even admitted I was wrong about one of my points in that post. But whatever dude

[Black]

I'll be taking the night off from the thread but I want to see more votes on Roden please, not less

You're tunneling

I should step away

[Black]

Actually maybe I should stick to my guns and go wiz first

Annie is locktown

[Black]

I am not scum. Feel free to look at my other games to get a feel how town!me looks.

Can you go into this a little? I'm curious to hear what you think the difference is between your town and scum games

[Black]

His posts in that exchange with Black just came across as more logical to me, whereas Black seemed like she was flailing and just being defensive

Yeah...the potshot in 932 didn't make me happy. My emotions were the driving force behind those posts but I don't really think that's scummy. I also don't think logical = townie

I'm surprised you didn't get defensive/emotional vibes from posts like 940, the first part of 947, 950, and 966 though. It feels like you are being a bit selective with this read

[Black]

Actually after reading your post again it does seem like you noticed some emotion in there (frustration)

[Black]

I think Roden's perspective during that exchange is telling though. He talked to me as if I was town up until 973 where he then calls me scum and then votes for me a couple of posts later. This doesn't really feel like town that has re-evaluated their read

[Black]

I don't think I want to fade Naerys today. Annie is locktown

Smiley is someone that I townread every time he posts, but his posts are so infrequent that the trust is a little weak

I still think Steady is probably town but I don't have a strong read here either way

Python's posts feel good for the most part but they're closer to null than townread. I feel this way about Shea too

Hu, Enchant, and BlackStar are all in my "meh" category. I can't really figure these slots out

I'm most comfortable with an OWER or Roden fade

[Black]

I think Roden's perspective during that exchange is telling though. He talked to me as if I was town up until 973 where he then calls me scum and then votes for me a couple of posts later. This doesn't really feel like town that has re-evaluated their read

Hm, the tone between that post and the one before it is really different. Goes from what sounds like upset at a fellow townie to what sounds like a suspicion of a deep scumread, and only in a minute’s time, too.

It's not just the post before it. 932, 947, 950, and 966 all indicate Roden is thinking from a town!Black perspective. He flips this in 973 and suddenly assumes I'm scum. It doesn't feel like a natural progression to me

[Black]

Python's posts feel good for the most part but they're closer to null than townread. I feel this way about Shea too

I’d love to hear more about this—are there specific posts that ping you oddly, or any general patterns?

Eh, not really. It's just general vibes. I feel like they are both kinda selective in what they respond to/push, but that isn't really scummy, it just makes me think they are filtering their thoughts I guess? I think it just boils down to me not trusting them as players because they have burned me as scum before. They feel townie enough to where I don't currently want to fade either of them

[Black]

I'm losing the thread on this game. I'll need to get something to jumpstart me back into it.

Thoughts on me vs. Roden?

[Black]

P.S.: Realized I didn’t ask about why your Naerys read had changed to not being the highest-priority lim target. I know you had mentioned earlier in D2 thinking that flipping Enchant first would help sort Naerys, but you don’t seem as keen on going for Enchant either now.

I would be ok with fading Enchant but it doesn't seem like many others agree with me there

As for Naerys I kinda got town pings from her interactions with Shea. I think her posting has gotten better as D2 has gone on and I liked her response to my self-meta question. This could still be scum but I think there are probably better options today

[Black]

VOTE: OutWorldER

[Black]

*raised eyebrow*

Can we get a readslist from you

[Black]

This is just Roden 2.0

It would be cool if people could keep their composure when getting pushed instead of having complete meltdowns and flaming the person doing it

[Black]

VOTE: Roden

[Black]

I don't get why people are jumping on OWER for 1067

I just wanted a wagon and I don't really care if it's on OWER or Roden. In this situation at least OWER is putting in effort (and in a respectful way) so a Roden wagon it is

[Black]

Come on guys

There is a huge difference in wanting a wagon and wanting to fade someone. I can't tell if you are deliberately reaching here or if you just don't understand why a townie would want a wagon formed

[Black]

BlackStar, I don’t think you’re wrong that Black is very limhungry, but she has been pretty keen to also defend townreads and such. Additionally, I don’t think pushing for an elimination is super scummy if she makes good arguments for the targets—I mean, we’re supposed to want the people we think are scummy to be eliminated, right?

I mean, it’s not like she denied wanting to eliminate people in her response to you in 924 (though I will say she didn’t technically confirm it either), and she was like this in our last game too—lots of “sharpness,” as Shea put it.

Again, I'm not pushing for an elimination here. Wagons are useful without getting all the way there

[Black]

No, she says if what you’re implying by her wanting to create a wagon is that she wants the day to be short,

that’s

not true—she’s debating the reasoning for her pushes, not that she has them.

That is what I was implying and she just said a few posts ago that she doesn’t really care who we lynch. OWER making a case that Black herself doesn’t even seem that excited about doesn’t seem like a good reason to hop on a wagon. Especially since she claims to scum read Black. Why would you join a wagon with one of your top scum reads just like that?

And maybe it’s just me, but I only ever vote for the person I’m scum reading the most at the moment. Flipping around just based on what lim seems more likely to go through seems like a bad idea.

Oh so you really don't get it then

Btw we don't use the L-word

[Black]

VOTE: Roden

I don't care and I lost interest, just kill Black tomorrow

Now

I'm ready to fade this, but I still think we wait until we get closer to the deadline

[Black]

5 days until deadline uuuuuuuuuuuuuh.

Just a bit until we stop this trashtalk?

I don't think python is out of line at all here

[Black]

Ah, uh… I think I was holding the idiot ball again. I kind of just assumed the wagons were only for elimination instead of remembering that it forces claims and such.

Not only that but it's useful to see who is willing to join the wagon and their reasonings for hopping on/staying off

You will never, ever catch me trying to rush the day as either alignment

[Black]

Thanks for explaining—the patience and clarity is appreciated.

[Black]

Python, I fear y’all are going to have a lot of policy votes if you keep adding more conditions on.

Why do you care?

1. Can’t do VCA on someone who policy votes a lot of different things.

2. It dilutes the limiting power of a policy vote—people won’t respect the vote if they know someone else will catch it soon after.

3. It’s kind of funny.

I literally have 0 clue who our vote is on rn without checking, I'd be surprised if anyone could VCA us with any sort of reliability

How do you not know who your vote is on?

[Black]

Having zero clue who your vote is on sounds wild and I don't really believe that. I don't think python is that blase when it comes to the game

[Black]

I move my vote around way more and I'm always aware of where it's at, and I don't even think about the game on the same logical level as python

[Black]

I don't know why you would lie here so I don't have anywhere to go with this. It's just a little shocking to me

[Black]

scum is some bullshit like roden/python/hu tao

idk Roden seems to be getting run up

4 votes and they could all easily be townies. There's been resistance to the wagon too

[Black]

I actually kinda like that solve from Wartortle

[Black]

scum is some bullshit like roden/python/hu tao

idk Roden seems to be getting run up

4 votes and they could all easily be townies. There's been resistance to the wagon too

We're saying that Wartle is getting their reads pushed instead of everyone forgetting

Oh yeah I misread you there

[Black]

I don't know what world you're living in BlackStar. Roden definitely lost his cool and made it personal after I voted for him. Saying I'm not capable of voting scum is a ridiculous take considering I've voted for two of his scumreads this game

Idk what to tell you. If he's town then he can't handle his emotions and maybe this game isn't healthy for him. If he's scum then he's pulling out all the strings to try to reverse the wagon (OMGUS, AtE, self voting)

[Black]

I would be ok with a BlackStar vote but I would much rather fade Roden

[Black]

I would be ok with a BlackStar vote but I would much rather fade Roden

is that your brain talking or your annoyance at them?

Not to put too fine a point on it but WHY do you want roden limmed?

I think he's probably scum. I've talked about why if you just read my iso

[Black]

Actually, I think I just want to go OWER here

I was looking in my ISO for Roden stuff and I found 561 which reminded me of how confident I was in this read D1 before I got talked out of it

VOTE: OutworldER

[Black]

I think there's a real chance that Roden is the type of person that just can't handle being incorrectly pushed

[Black]

Roden is probably going to hate me moving foward and he might not even play the game anymore but I think there's a greater chance in OWER flipping scum here

[Black]

I mean, but thats what I don't like about your ISO blackstar. You seem to be unwilling to push the game forward in any direction. It reminds of how scum look when they're worried that if they push the wrong person that they'll end up getting counterpushed or they can't think of anything to push so they fall back into the much safer pattern of pointing out slight flaws in things other people think rather than trying to advance their own thoughts.

I just second guess every thought about people that I have

and don’t feel like sharing thoughts that I’ll probably back out on a page later. When I post, it’s because I feel somewhat strongly that it’s something important to mention

Man I feel this

[Black]

I'm gunna VOTE: blackstar until I actually see some indication they're trying to find scum.

What are your thoughts on OWER

[Black]

Looks a lot like the town ower I played with in 2170

Can you give me some specifics. I feel like this is the first time you've mentioned OWER all game. Did this read just form?

[Black]

I think there's a lot of solving thoughts in a lot of his posts. Like there's a bunch of observations like this which feel like they're going a step further beyond what scum would do to fake a read a lot of the time. I think the main difference between the two games is that he is more present there and less here, but the content when he's here feels very similar to me.

Kinda seems like the way I play scum tbh

Thanks for sharing your read

[Black]

That was something I noted in 561 too. I think OWER is just me as scum

[Black]

Annie, can I get you to switch over to the OWER wagon?

[Black]

Like what differences would you expect to see from townOwer that you're not seeing?

I couldn't really tell you. Some people are just good at seeming townie when they are scum

[Black]

@Black I don't see why it isn't possible that my town play simply reminds you of your own scum play. I often (read 2 years ago) was considered limbait in other games I've played as town (see Student Council Mafia or Mini Normal 2185), so the idea that my town play reminds a player of their scum!self isn't wild to me.

It is possible

[Black]

BlackStar kinda feels like he did in Normal 2313 and I thought he was scummy there too

[Black]

And I could be wrong about outworlder.

I need more than just "he is posting townie sounding stuff which is what I do as scum" though and like not trying to be rude that feels like what a lot of this case is?

I feel like reducing 561 to that is really disingenuous

[Black]

I'm not going to try and convince you to vote OWER. I think you could be his partner and if he flips red I'm coming for you next

[Black]

Nah I wouldn't say I scumread you. It's just an association read

[Black]

Ok bet

[Black]

I could definitely be wrong here. I don't think I am though

I'll try to look through OWER's games when I get to my PC

@OWER: Have you rolled scum on here before?

[Black]

You're not actively analyzing the evidence. "Well some people are good at faking town stuff" is not a good faith response to the question "what would he be doing differently as town, here's an example of him doing plenty of the stuff you're scum reading him for as town what is he doing differently?" its a deflection at best.

If you think x is scum because of y, someone telling you well here he is doing y as town should make you reevaluate your position. Indeed, that should have been part of your initial read formation in the first place. So the fact that you seem to have not considered it is why it feels half formed to me.

Dude. You asked me that question and I said "I couldn't really tell you"

Why do you seem mad all of the sudden?

[Black]

LMAO ok sure buddy

[Black]

I'm autoflipping Shea if OWER flips scum

[Black]

I could definitely be wrong here. I don't think I am though

I'll try to look through OWER's games when I get to my PC

@OWER: Have you rolled scum on here before?

Once, in Mini Normal 2179. However, I'm unsure in how useful it would be for determining my alignment in this game because I had the good fortune that game to roll a scumteam with both Flavor Leaf and Alchemist and I essentially got hard carried that game. My memories of that game are mostly me lurking out while FL blew smoke everywhere.

Links:
Game Itself: viewtopic.php?t=85010
The Maf PT for that Game: viewtopic.php?t=85015

Thank you for this. I will look over it and consider it when I get home

[Black]

pedit: I'm not mad. I think your read is bad and I think you're scum now.

Yeah? Is that so? You think me having bad reads is scum indicative of me? Because I know for a fact you don't

You're pushing this because I'm now a threat to you and OWER. Who is your third?

[Black]

I'm not scum reading you for the read exactly, I'm scum reading you because you seem unwilling to interact with why the read might be wrong and because the way you're going about pushing it and interacting with me about it is scummy as fuck.

I mean if you can't accept the fact that I don't have the capability to look at his other games atm then idk what to tell you

Go ahead and scumread me for that. I don't really care

[Black]

You think I tied you together with him because I'm mad? Yikes

[Black]

You know how I feel about meta so why would I blindly believe your weak meta read on OWER? You even said yourself you could be wrong. Like what?

[Black]

Your progression here doesn't make sense if you are town

[Black]

Yes, because if you spent like 10 seconds thinking about it you would realize you have never once in your life playing mafia seen a scum player interact with a scum read on their buddy the way I am doing right now. So either you're mad and not taking the time to think this through or you're scum imo.

I've seen scum try to defuse a wagon before it really picks up speed by dropping a subtle townread on them, so idk what to tell you

[Black]

Nah, I'm done engaging with you. You just want to fight. You are caught for the wrong reasons and I'm sorry it has to be this way

[Black]

My town read right now is subtle? Fucking listen to yourself.

I've spent like 6 pages arguing it. Very subtle. Maybe no one will notice!

It was very subtle at first, now you are using AtE to try and blow it into "oh look I've been defending OWER for 6 pages!!11!!"

Like go look at your initial read when I asked you. You said he feels like he did in another town game you were in. That's the most basic townread you can drop. You gave me some extra stuff when I asked you to but then you shifted into attacking me. You're scum here

[Black]

Thank you, this is exactly it.

Hi Roden. I feel like I may have been wrong about you. Will you vote OWER with me?

[Black]

Don't worry Shea, I'm only going to push you if OWER flips red. If you're confident in your TR then you have nothing to worry about

[Black]

I think there's a real chance that Roden is the type of person that just can't handle being incorrectly pushed

Not even close, I've been mis-elim'd so many times for much dumber reasons. I just don't have WIM this game.

Roden is probably going to hate me moving foward and he might not even play the game anymore but I think there's a greater chance in OWER flipping scum here

This is what frustrates me, we've barely interacted and you think I hate you. Like you just keep assuming things about how people think and act and it's like you can't imagine any other outcomes.

I'm sorry. The way you engaged with me really made me think you despise me. I shouldn't assume that though

[Black]

Fwiw I do consider other outcomes, even if I don't type them out

[Black]

We could have the greatest enemies to friends story ever if you helped me flip OWER

[Black]

Don't worry Shea, I'm only going to push you if OWER flips red. If you're confident in your TR then you have nothing to worry about

I don't think town says things like this. It's too premeditated

I was live posting lol, not sure how you got premeditated vibes from that

[Black]

Also can you explain the manipulation vibes?

[Black]

I just... I don't think that interaction was TvT—and that sucks because both are townreads for me. It felt weird to read over, since to me it felt like Shea was oversimplifying Black's arguments, but instead of defending herself Black was committing hard to a sudden switch on Shea (via OWER). It was just... I dunno how describe it, but it was weird.

It's not TvT. Shea is scum

especially considering the sudden switch on Roden

Roden reminds me of how I usually react to getting pushed when I'm town. Frustrated and defeated. I think he could still be scum but I'm willing to work with him to take down a common SR (OWER)