Mini Normal 2323 [There is an Inventor] | FIN

[Katsuki]

VOTE: katsuki
Been a while since I’ve seen your face
Let’s hope this game has a reasonable pace

If people are racking up as many posts as you, I'm not holding my breath in hopes of it. 40k+ posts in like 4 years is kinda insane, reflects the phonepost spam nature of games nowadays I suppose. This will be my first normal since I first joined the site in hopes of dodging one of those games, which is weird for me considering how many activity record setting games I was in.

Mod gave me this new role I've never heard of called Juggernaut and I don't know what I should do with it, wanna help me out and give some pointers?

[Katsuki]

Damn almost sniped that pagetop.

VOTE: BLACK

[Katsuki]

The other obvious possibility is joke. I don't have enough background to know how likely that is from Katsuki.

This rubs me the wrong way too.

[Katsuki]

Damn almost sniped that pagetop.

VOTE: BLACK

Are you going to ignore people's questions/comments about you?

Also you can use [ v ] [/ v ] to vote, just take away the spaces

You guys post enough and I don't feel like adding in like 6 posts of rather useless fluff on top of that, and wall posts aren't my style.

[Katsuki]

I'm trying to push this out of rvs already.

Why do you feel the need to?

[Katsuki]

Thats basically scum confession
VOTE: Katsuki

Katsuki what exactly does your role do

I think Katsuki’s claim deserves a closer glance
Not sure it’s real but it makes me look askance

These 3 posts about Katsukis claim make me want to keep an eye on these slots.
I feel like it was obvious the Juggernaut claim was a joke, and I do feel like it could be an easy opportunity for an opportunistic scum to jump on that.

Any thoughts on davesaz?

[Katsuki]

I'm willing to give myself some more time to see where my Black read develops given player unfamiliarity.

Happier to push this one to a lynch.

UNVOTE, VOTE: DAVE

[Katsuki]

I'm willing to give myself some more time to see where my Black read develops given player unfamiliarity.

Happier to push this one to a lynch.

UNVOTE, VOTE: DAVE

btw "lynch" is forbidden on this site now, you should use alternatives like "elimination" (or "lim" for short) or "execution" or whatever

I see. That's going to be a very hard habit to break... apologies in advance for any future slips if they happen.

[Katsuki]

Any thoughts on davesaz?

It feels less potentially opportunistic than the other 3 posts I mentioned so I wasnt overly focusing on it tbh.
I feel like it seems similar to my initial reaction, I just didn't say something sooner because I didn't want to guide your response to the questioning.

Mmm.

The difference between you and him is that, unlike you, he doesn't lack the background knowledge on me to at least have some sort of thought. He's more than happy to entertain a serious push on me if it develops, yet left room to backtrack with that

"I don't have enough background"

as his pretense to remain non-committal on providing any sort of useful comment.

FWIW, the last time I played with him, I literally posted nothing but pepes for the first 3/4 gamedays in team mafia.

[Katsuki]

I'm willing to give myself some more time to see where my Black read develops given player unfamiliarity

What is your read based on?

For now, lets call it gut while I get to know you better.

How good are you at scum btw, in your opinion?

[Katsuki]

Oh, was that you? It was years ago and I absolutely hated it.

Indeed, even tried to get the mod to prohibit my posting.

[Katsuki]

I'm willing to give myself some more time to see where my Black read develops given player unfamiliarity

What is your read based on?

For now, lets call it gut while I get to know you better.

How good are you at scum btw, in your opinion?

Well I'm 6-0 as scum so I think I'm pretty decent. I definitely have holes in my scum game though. There are things I'm pretty weak at

Thanks, appreciate you providing this for me.

[Katsuki]

My general impression is she doesn’t like day one
So she does silly things to make it more fun

It depends. RVS is the best period of the game for scumhunting. Entire games can be won off the back of the RVS phase.

[Katsuki]

*That being said, you're right I do have a tendency to have a great deal of disdain for D1 if the town is being bad and will just disappear until late game after the distracting voices have died off before participating. You probably caught me in one of those games.

[Katsuki]

Katsuki would you say your juggernaut claim was a joke?

No, am sad Gamma never gave me pointers.

*That being said, you're right I do have a tendency to have a great deal of disdain for D1 if the town is being bad and will just disappear until late game after the distracting voices have died off before participating. You probably caught me in one of those games.

I don't remember the issue in those prior cases being bad town
I moreso recall high post density causing your motivation to drown

Ah yeah that'd do it, that's one and the same to me. Town posting at high velocity with extreme fluff to post ratio is antitown, you end up drowning out actually useful posts in addition to providing scum an easy haven to blend into. Activity and banter is fun and all, but ultimately need to be productive overall.

Here I am sounding like a boomer lecturer, fuck me.

[Katsuki]

I see that very few people understand the difference between "did" and "would have".

This, and the Katsuki-related post, are jokes on the theme that

I do not believe slips happen

ever

.

So what's your conclusion then?

[Katsuki]

LMAO

[Katsuki]

Everyone else null

Are you not getting anything out of Katsuki?

Are you?

[Katsuki]

@Katsuki, is your top scumread davesaz currently? And is that based just on him claiming not to have a background with you even though je should have, or is there more to it?

I'm at a point where I'm quite content to sit back and see how things play out. I'm also somewhat rusty and mishandled my posting regarding dave so kinda gave him an easy out of any potential pressure. Rushed my posting and gave him the chance to use the convenient excuse of

"oh I forgot"

. The rest of his posting has been underwhelming and given me no reason to not trust my gut for now.

There is one player I'd be happy to see nom'ed today, but with the current game state there's no realistic chance of me getting support for their nom today so in the meantime I'm just going to chill until flips hopefully go my way to enable me to nail a wagon onto them.

[Katsuki]

Who is it?

I intentionally left out the name.

[Katsuki]

The rest of his posting has been underwhelming

The game is rather underwhelming so far, why should I be any different?

For starters, I disagree with the assertion that this game is rather underwhelming so far. If anything, this D1 has probably been one of the more productive ones out of the the games I've played in like the past 7 years it seems.

Since the above is simply my opinion, that aside even if we were to take your statement as fact that this game is underwhelming, the gamestate is independent to your ability to post in line with your alignment if town.

I'm obviously not going to convince you that you're scum, but its the wording and tone on posts like this that feel off to me compared to past experiences of Davetown.

[Katsuki]

convenient excuse of "oh I forgot"

Forgetting is a RL thing. Accusing me of lying about RL is a pretty dangerous thing to do.

Neither of us can prove it, it is what it is, hence why I haven't pushed you on it at all, only on the way you entered this game which I found off.

[Katsuki]

My general impression is she doesn’t like day one
So she does silly things to make it more fun

It depends. RVS is the best period of the game for scumhunting. Entire games can be won off the back of the RVS phase.

I disagree with this but that could just be attributed to differences in game theory

The two cleanest town games I've played in, one was a 13p that ended in 3 RL days (3hrs actual day time) because we caught all the scum in RVS, and the other was a 13p team mafia game that ended in 3 days as well because we caught 2 scum off their first posts of the game. It's not something you have to subscribe to, but was there really a need for you to pick this particular point out?

[Katsuki]

Scum and fun don't rhyme miss

[Katsuki]

@Katsuki, is your top scumread davesaz currently? And is that based just on him claiming not to have a background with you even though je should have, or is there more to it?

I'm at a point where I'm quite content to sit back and see how things play out. I'm also somewhat rusty and mishandled my posting regarding dave so kinda gave him an easy out of any potential pressure. Rushed my posting and gave him the chance to use the convenient excuse of

"oh I forgot"

. The rest of his posting has been underwhelming and given me no reason to not trust my gut for now.

There is one player I'd be happy to see nom'ed today, but with the current game state there's no realistic chance of me getting support for their nom today so in the meantime I'm just going to chill until flips hopefully go my way to enable me to nail a wagon onto them.

Just wanted to clarify by the first sentence, that has nothing to do davesaz and should've been a different line. Meant to read that I'm content with this game state and how the day is progressing to let my reads continue develop.

Our votes are quite scattered at the moment as well so lets spice things up a bit.

VOTE: NAERYS

[Katsuki]

Who is it?

I intentionally left out the name.

I think you've made a little obvious that it's me though

Make your case

Why do you think it's you?

[Katsuki]

That's a cute avatar you got

Thanks, I think so too. Figured you'd appreciate it.

[Katsuki]

You already said you scumread me, and you mentioned you didn't want to push the person due to the game state and I think you're referring to a few people townreading me

What I don't understand is if you think I'm scum and you're town then why would you not push me? You seem content with just hopping on the Naerys wagon instead

Out of those wagons, I think she is the most likely to flip scum, and that her flip provides the most information.

[Katsuki]

Hey Dave, as a person, do you think you've changed (much or not) in the past 8 years?

[Katsuki]

HAPPY NEW YEAR
HOPE EVERYONES ENJOYING THE HOLIDAY
SEE YALL NEXT YEAR

[Katsuki]

Bit unfortunate we have NYs but the game must go on. Have 4 days left on the day so ideally we get a proper wagon going so we're not left having to do any deadline noms.

@Mod: can we get a prod on kyouko, and probably gamma soon as well?

[Katsuki]

@Mod: can we get a prod on kyouko, and probably gamma soon as well?

Gamma Emerald is still outside of prod range.

Prodding ssbm_Kyouko.

Do note that, being New Year's Eve, I will be a bit lenient and will not consider prod timers to be ticking today.

ya gamma was 5hrs off figured I'd just put it in the same post instead of making another one later.

That being said, would it be possible to get a one day extension on day deadline to account for holiday inactivity then?

[Katsuki]

Okay so assuming it is a reaction to voting myself, what do you think about the vote?

Do you have any thoughts on the game outside of your wagon that you tried to drag us back to RVS with after we had already managed to swiftly progress past that stage?

[Katsuki]

I feel like I'm having a hard time reading people this game. All my reads are kinda stale and I'm not super confident in any of them

It's okay. Just copy my vote all game. I'm not scum or anything

Don't think it's possible for a hu tao enthusiast to be scum.

[Katsuki]

votecount

Votecount 1-XI

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to hammer, or 6 to decide for no execution.

Naerys (3):

camelCasedSnivy, KittyTacky, Katsuki

DragonEater70 (3):

Hu Tao, ssbm_Kyouko, Thomith

Thomith (2):

Naerys, Gamma Emerald

ssbm_Kyouko (1):

DragonEater70

davesaz (1):

Black

Not Voting (2):

davesaz, Celebloki

notes

• The deadline is due in (expired on 2024-01-07 07:46:06).
  
• You can find the combined mod ISO here
  
• Celebloki is V/LA 'till 01/JAN

I'll be thoroughly amused later on if it turned out the leading wagons were both on scum.

[Katsuki]

I'll be thoroughly amused later on if it turned out the leading wagons were both on scum.

It’s happened before but it took substantial luck
And a scumteam presence describable in one word: suck

I don't think it's fair to say suck. If my statement is correct, then you can clearly see the unsuccessful effort to divert and drum up another nomwagon.

Wanna join me in making this game state more interesting? The bloodlust in me is thirsting for some flips.

VOTE: DRAGON

[Katsuki]

I'll be thoroughly amused later on if it turned out the leading wagons were both on scum.

It’s happened before but it took substantial luck
And a scumteam presence describable in one word: suck

I don't think it's fair to say suck. If my statement is correct, then you can clearly see the unsuccessful effort to divert and drum up another nomwagon.

Wanna join me in making this game state more interesting? The bloodlust in me is thirsting for some flips.

VOTE: DRAGON

Why are you against starting a new wagon on the person you said you wouldn't mind fading?

I have found both his feel and tone off this game compared to past town games of his, but I'm having trouble with bringing myself to nom him just for that alone today. One of those games I only stumbled upon because I discovered an old game of mine I modded that he happened to be in back in 2015. It's possible I've played in other games with him and seen him scum before, but I can't remember any of them outside of TM2018.

In the event he flips town, it doesn't really give me any helpful information to progress my reads. Fairly low quality nom today IMO, willing to give more time to sort out his alignment.

[Katsuki]

I have found both his feel and tone off this game compared to past town games of his, but I'm having trouble with bringing myself to nom him just for that alone today. One of those games I only stumbled upon because I discovered an old game of mine I modded that he happened to be in back in 2015. It's possible I've played in other games with him and seen him scum before, but I can't remember any of them outside of TM2018.

In the event he flips town, it doesn't really give me any helpful information to progress my reads. Fairly low quality nom today IMO, willing to give more time to sort out his alignment.

For clarity for ISO skimmers, above post relates to Davesaz.

[Katsuki]

Still have time left on the day to see what CCS decides to show up with. Lurker wagon would've been more useful 10pgs ago.

[Katsuki]

Edit: the link wasn't working with the [img

] tag (because it wasn't, scrictly, a link to an image). Original post:

Spoiler:

[Katsuki]

GDI THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE MY PAGEBUMP!

Image didn't even load properly so whatevers

[Katsuki]

someone report this mod for stealing my glorious pagetop ty

E: reduplicated image removed.

[Katsuki]

Katsuki could be a CCS partner

She consolidated to the Dragon wagon and tried to recruit Gamma there after a CCS fade gained some traction

Now she's discrediting the wagon by saying it would have been more useful 10 pages ago

Nah I'm merely calling a lurker wagon a pretty poor choice given that we have stuff to work with. I don't like how the wagons stalled where they did, with attempts to start up alternative wagons on any player other than dragon/naerys.

I'm fine with being tied with CCS scum should that slot end up actually flipping scum. It won't hold any water should dragon flip scum though.

[Katsuki]

Katsuki could be a CCS partner

She consolidated to the Dragon wagon and tried to recruit Gamma there after a CCS fade gained some traction

Now she's discrediting the wagon by saying it would have been more useful 10 pages ago

Nah I'm merely calling a lurker wagon a pretty poor choice given that we have stuff to work with. I don't like how the wagons stalled where they did, with attempts to start up alternative wagons on any player other than dragon/naerys.

I'm fine with being tied with CCS scum should that slot end up actually flipping scum. It won't hold any water should dragon flip scum though.

I don't think any of the arguments for Naerys/Dragon/Thomith are very good so like the stuff we have to work with isn't very convincing to me. I also think reducing the CCS wagon to just a "lurker wagon" isn't really accurate. He's a low poster but the content he has produced hasn't been particularly townie at all

By stuff we have to work with, I meant in terms of we have their posts to work with. We also have the wagons to work with, which likely are highly illuminating as to this game state - only thing missing is flips.

Sure, his content hasn't been shining town. What about his content do you think makes him likely to be scum and nomworthy?

[Katsuki]

Wow why is snivy at L-1 so quickly?

HMMM

[Katsuki]

Most of CCS’ new posts don’t sway me from the cause
But the reaction to the wagon formation gives me pause

Whose reaction are you referring to?

[Katsuki]

*whose/what

This doesn't seem like one of those playerbases to powerhammer, but I will say I def have words that need to be said before we head into night. Post tomorrow.

[Katsuki]

Most of CCS’ new posts don’t sway me from the cause
But the reaction to the wagon formation gives me pause

Aight re-read this today without a heavy head this time and I think I get what you're saying here. Still would like for you to clarify my question from last night just to make sure we're on the same page because it matters to me that I get the right interpretation.

[Katsuki]

Ok thanks we are seeing the same thing then. Yeah would like to see more from Snivy too but not holding my breath on anything useful from him.

[Katsuki]

Most of CCS’ new posts don’t sway me from the cause
But the reaction to the wagon formation gives me pause

Aight re-read this today without a heavy head this time and I think I get what you're saying here. Still would like for you to clarify my question from last night just to make sure we're on the same page because it matters to me that I get the right interpretation.

Ok thanks we are seeing the same thing then. Yeah would like to see more from Snivy too but not holding my breath on anything useful from him.

Do you have an independent read on Snivy / thoughts on the wagon?

I do. Wasn't feeling well enough yesterday to post it so it'll be written up sometime later today hopefully.

[Katsuki]

Yep. My reads are generally super fluid on D1. Plus I have a theory and I think wagoning Thom will help me decide if I could be right or not. That's all I really want to say about it atm

I mean there's fluid and then there's reads where you don't show progression on, but I'm going to out of respect assume that theory holds more weight than the lack of apparent progression and see what you do with it, I will be holding you to explaining what it is even if it falls through though.

I'm glad someone is catching on to that. The issue isn't exactly the lack of progression (this is more the result of effect rather than cause), it's the intent behind her posts. She's been quite deliberate in her actions and motivations in progressing her wincon if my read on her is correct.

[Katsuki]

I've been waffling on the original post I had and have decided to withhold it for now.

Where I am right now, I still think that Dragon is most likely to flip scum out of the leading nom candidates based off of a number of factors. I also have a sneaking suspicion that there's a good chance he is the strongest PR the wolves have.

Normally I'd be perfectly fine with D1 nomming CCS slot contribution, but I really don't like how that wagon came about. We went from stalled wagons 3 votes apiece on Dragon, Naerys and Thomith, with Thomith being the counterwagon with dragon and naerys voting for him, to suddenly being able to construct a wagon on the lurker. Nothing in his posting had changed, he could've been voted or examined at any time during the day, but no one thought to mention him at all until it came to WAGON HO!

Currently where I'm sitting looks roughly like this.

CONFTOWN:

ME

STRONGTOWN:

KYOUKO
KITTY

TOWN:

HUTAO
GE

LIKELY TOWN

THOMITH (conf town if Dragon+Naerys both flip scum)

That leaves davesaz, CCS, Jackson, Black, dragon and Naerys.

dave I'm firmly null on atm.
CCS is null leaning town
JACKSON I'm tempted to toss him into the town pile.

That conveniently leaves dragon, black and naerys. Is the game really this easy? Maybe. I'm pretty confident that there's at least two scum in that pool (wouldn't shock me if I nailed all 3, but would surprise me a bit playing with a new group of players). I quite like what Black has been doing from a scum perspective, and in my eyes it makes the most sense that it stems from Dragon being scum. Plus, she's no longer a fluffy adorable Umbreon. If Dragon flips scum, she is buddy #1 and needs to be TURBONOMMED accordingly.

So TL;DR, at the moment I think the game is fairly straight forward, with Dragon likely to be scum and his buddies being pretty obvious post-flip. Therefore I'm happiest with a Dragon nom today.

[Katsuki]

Can you go into this further? What do you think the intent behind my posts have been and how have I been progressing my wincon if I'm scum?

If I don't at some point this game, note to remind me to post-game if I'm right and you're still curious.

[Katsuki]

That conveniently leaves dragon, black and naerys. Is the game really this easy?

Lol I would say that generally this means ur wrong but I recently won a mafia tournies finals when I made this exact statement D1

I've certainly had many games where I cracked games wide open D1 before with perfect reads so it'd be nothing new, just something that I would find to be quite unexpected considering that I'm playing with a group of unfamiliar players and rust.

[Katsuki]

(also sry pronouns jackson, should've been them and not him)

[Katsuki]

All the power to ya. I can see Dragon/Black for sure. Naerys I get too but I wanna make sure I'm not falling into my usual pitfalls with them before I make any stance

In the context of it being Dragon/Black (and Naerys), everything you're saying about her play should make a lot more sense.

Not falling into pitfalls is basically why I was debating whether to put my stances out like that. Preferable course of action for me would've been to just see the Dragon flip first before I solidified my positions like that, but I think there's merit in getting my reads out today in case I do end up getting shot overnight.

[Katsuki]

Where I am right now, I still think that Dragon is most likely to flip scum out of the leading nom candidates based off of a number of factors. I also have a sneaking suspicion that there's a good chance he is the strongest PR the wolves have.

Purely to get under your brain wrinkles, assuming this is the case, do you feel Naerys/Black are acting in a way that would back the idea of your solve up?

Their posting threw me for a bit of a loop tbh. I was far more certain about it being the 3 of them last night when I was lying in bed than today.

Black's been my most solid scumread today and I would like to think I'm not wrong on that one.
I didn't like a lot of Dragon's posts that he made recently, namely #348, 372, 375 and 428.

Early game certainly gave me Black/Naerys partner vibes. I feel like if we actually do have Dragon and Black both flipping scum, we can probably safely nom Naerys and then if we're wrong, go from there.

[Katsuki]

*their posting today threw me for a loop

I probably need to go back and look at it again tomorrow, was occupied with getting my post out today. It's somewhat putting cart before horse though considering we don't actually have 3 noms so don't necessarily need to hard solve all 3 scum today.

[Katsuki]

Where I am right now, I still think that Dragon is most likely to flip scum out of the leading nom candidates based off of a number of factors. I also have a sneaking suspicion that there's a good chance he is the strongest PR the wolves have.

Purely to get under your brain wrinkles, assuming this is the case, do you feel Naerys/Black are acting in a way that would back the idea of your solve up?

Their posting threw me for a bit of a loop tbh. I was far more certain about it being the 3 of them last night when I was lying in bed than today.

Black's been my most solid scumread today and I would like to think I'm not wrong on that one.
I didn't like a lot of Dragon's posts that he made recently, namely #348, 372, 375 and 428.

Early game certainly gave me Black/Naerys partner vibes. I feel like if we actually do have Dragon and Black both flipping scum, we can probably safely nom Naerys and then if we're wrong, go from there.

Black has also been a solid SR for me, as has Thom but you seem to town-lean them so I can ask the reasoning for that in particular? I'll check over the posts you have here, a lot of what I don't like about Dragon is from his early game. It felt incredibly detached and showoffish, trying way too hard so I don't understand how anybody town-reads that based off vibe alone. Content wise I don't have any particular thoughts onhim.

Thom has mostly been because his posting hasn't felt like scum to me and that he seems like a pocket misnom.

It was very hard for me to sort dragon early because I couldn't tell if the vibes and things he was doing was just a him thing, if you will. The timing of when he did the self-wagon felt off and unnatural to me, I was tempted to naked vote him for that too. How long he tried to cling onto that wagon justification to call kyouko scum didn't seem natural as well.

[Katsuki]

348,372,375 what do you not like about these posts? All I can personally see wrong is that he's in the habit of reaching his feelers out to see what he can or cannot push, he did this with Kyo "does anyone see that X is wrong" rather than "X is wrong", and the next page he asked for thoughts on Black. Memory does not serve me right but if it happened twice, I'm sure it's happened more times. The explanation on the vote stuff is janky. He reaches his feelers out only to make the stance anyway, does this come from a wolf more than town? Unsure.

428 I ain't reading this chonky boi

It's the way he tries to paint players as scummy, and setup nom options. Think about the wagon statement, it's completely arbitrary and ground in no reason that of those 6 players, there has to be 2 scum and they're perfectly split in the subset of 3|3. That's basically just

"oh I can just pick any two players out of 6 and justify my vote on any of them"

. There's no scumhunting there, just setting up nom options. Since he already was insistent on kyouko being the scum of one group of 3, he was basically throwing out

"there's scum among CCS, Kitty, Katsuki"

blind.

#428 was just a pretty bad reads list that didn't really make sense to me and reads more like a misnom agenda.

[Katsuki]

Normally I'd be perfectly fine with D1 nomming CCS slot contribution, but I really don't like how that wagon came about. We went from stalled wagons 3 votes apiece on Dragon, Naerys and Thomith, with Thomith being the counterwagon with dragon and naerys voting for him, to suddenly being able to construct a wagon on the lurker. Nothing in his posting had changed, he could've been voted or examined at any time during the day, but no one thought to mention him at all until it came to WAGON HO!

I find this take somewhat disingenuous
I had mentioned CCS earlier on as a player I found suspicious
I spoke of it in post 258, much earlier than
the vote count with the triple-tied wagons
I already brought up how the names on Thomith gave me hesitation
I felt more attached to my Thomith vote until that rumination

I know your stance. It goes without saying that we don't have 5 scum votes on CCS.

[Katsuki]

It was very hard for me to sort dragon early because I couldn't tell if the vibes and things he was doing was just a him thing, if you will. The timing of when he did the self-wagon felt off and unnatural to me, I was tempted to naked vote him for that too. How long he tried to cling onto that wagon justification to call kyouko scum didn't seem natural as well.

Yeah the self-wagon was pretty awful, that's the main reason I am reading him as I am. I'm not sure I reciprocate that read, I got something completely different as I just said before. I think even if I would have seen the same thing, the whole timing-aspect is missed because I'm reading it when it's already happened.

It's somewhat of a smokescreen. He's able to just use that to farm content to do absolutely nothing of actual use (sit in a corner and harp about kyouko scum for a good 3/4 days).

[Katsuki]

Katsuki feels townie over the last couple of pages and her scumread on me feels more natural than Jackson's

Black's been my most solid scumread today and I would like to think I'm not wrong on that one.
I didn't like a lot of Dragon's posts that he made recently, namely #348, 372, 375 and 428

I don't understand this though. If I've been your most solid scumread then why haven't you pushed me at all? You say you don't think you're wrong but you haven't cased me at all, you've just been voting for existing wagons instead

I believe this read is genuine but I've never been confident that someone is scum and just ignored them or didn't push them at all. I'd like to understand where you're coming from here

1. I rarely case people in the wall poster sense.

2. Too much effort to push a player that only I am scumreading D1. Much easier to flip scumbuddies first and then nom you off their flips instead.

3. I quite like you as a player, and was perfectly happy to sit back and watch you play. After all, I don't have to necessarily get you nom'ed D1, just nom'ed at some point during the game. Obviously carried the risk of me dying overnight early before being able to lay down a foundation for you being scum.
On that note will be quite sad if it turns out that I'm entirely wrong about my reads this game and you were town. I have too many townreads for that to really make sense though, and would involve me being entirely wrong about all my scum/town reads. I don't believe we have something like a kyouko+hutao centered scumteam so.

[Katsuki]

Where I am right now, I still think that Dragon is most likely to flip scum out of the leading nom candidates based off of a number of factors. I also have a sneaking suspicion that there's a good chance he is the strongest PR the wolves have.

Purely to get under your brain wrinkles, assuming this is the case, do you feel Naerys/Black are acting in a way that would back the idea of your solve up?

Their posting threw me for a bit of a loop tbh. I was far more certain about it being the 3 of them last night when I was lying in bed than today.

Black's been my most solid scumread today and I would like to think I'm not wrong on that one.
I didn't like a lot of Dragon's posts that he made recently, namely #348, 372, 375 and 428.

Early game certainly gave me Black/Naerys partner vibes. I feel like if we actually do have Dragon and Black both flipping scum, we can probably safely nom Naerys and then if we're wrong, go from there.

Black has also been a solid SR for me, as has Thom but you seem to town-lean them so I can ask the reasoning for that in particular?

Gave this some thought.

I think a lot of my Thom townlean is influenced by me seeing Dragon and Naerys as scummy. For him to be scum, it means I have to be wrong somewhere, which is quite possible if dragon + naerys aren't both scum. I really want to see Dragon and Naerys flips ASAP because that should consequently inform us as to Thom's alignment. If they're somehow both town then he's obviously scum.

Short version is that my townlean on him isn't anywhere close to as strong as my townreads on kyouko kitty hutao jackson and GE.

[Katsuki]

I'm so tempted to powernom naerys on principal and eat the vengeshot if she actually has one. Policy this 10/10 times she should not be allowed to survive anywhere close to LYLO.

[Katsuki]

Jesus every time I see my avatar I cringe

its cute. We could've been friends if didn't have fangs and ears this game.

[Katsuki]

Jesus every time I see my avatar I cringe

its cute. We could've been friends if didn't have fangs and ears this game.

So
A. I initially read this as a scumclaim
B. Even if you scumread me, why can't we be friends? Alignment in a game of mafia has nothing to do with how cool a person is outside of the game. I've definitely (or at least tried to) befriend people as opposite alignment.

I left out the word 'you' LOL.
Fine we can be friends even if you have fangs and fuzzy ears if that makes you happier. I'll remember you fondly when wearing your pelt coat.

[Katsuki]

1. I'm not saying you should wallpost a case. I just think explaining why you think I'm scum might help others see what you're seeing

2. I just don't agree with this. If you are the most confident in scum!me then it shouldn't be a ton of effort to push me, regardless of what the other players think. You haven't even tried. You've barely elaborated on your scumread at all. That approach just doesn't make sense to me

3. Are you typically right about your D1 reads? Because I'm not and I'll be shocked if your D1 read accuracy is high

1. I don't see the benefit of giving scum that information before I'm ready to nom them.

2. This may be the case if it weren't for the fact that there are already available wagons on acceptable nomcandidates to me. Drumming up a push on you would only serve to dilute focus, and there's no sense in distracting one scumwagon with another.

3. In games where I don't have a good read on the game I tend to not state any reads publicly, and continue to observe deeper into the game until they form. Other games, I get players whom I can read in the span of a couple posts.

If you want examples of high accuracy, off the top of my head I'll give you these games:

viewtopic.php?p=6761905#p6761905
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=15776
viewtopic.php?t=17423

[Katsuki]

If you want examples of high accuracy, off the top of my head I'll give you these games:

Perfect D1 readlist, bottom 3 players were the scumteam.
viewtopic.php?p=6761905#p6761905

Had 3 scum read D1, tried to distract one scumwagon with another scum if I recall.
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=15776

Had like 7 hard townreads (not publicized in game thread) and solid 2 scumreads D1.
viewtopic.php?t=17423

Should've given mini blurbs.

[Katsuki]

I guess just your Katsuki read then

The thing that pinged me a bit was that they seemed to hard tunnel on Dave early in the game, and then seemed to begin attempting to switch to faster wagons when they started emerging. The jump off of dave felt a little wonky to me.

Pre-emptively saying things like "I dont like day 1" to almost give an out of how hard you're going to try rubs me the wrong way too, but tbh this is probably NAI, just pinged me at the time.

After reading the ISO again, I probably could bump them up a tier.

We must have very different definitions of hard tunnel. How hard would you quantify my push on Dave this game? Because neither the duration nor the intensity with which I pushed Dave would qualify as "hard tunneling".

I never said I didn't like D1s, just not D1s with like 200 pgs, which was the context of that convo with GE.

[Katsuki]

1. I guess the benefit would be to show others why I'm scummy. But I do understand the concept of not wanting to let someone you think is scum interact with your reasons to try and sway you or convince others you're wrong

2. You thought I was scum very early though so I don't really think diluting focus is a great reason to not push me

3. I'm impressed if your D1 read accuracy is actually good. That's not very common in my experience. I don't have the time on my lunch break to look over those games but I'll take your word for it. The way you worded it just seemed like you'll be surprised if you're wrong about people which I thought was weird because I'm constantly having to reevaluate my reads

2. If you're talking about early on, first it took me some time to solidify my read on you. I was also in the process of developing reads on the rest of the game. It doesn't make sense for me to push for your nom before I'm ready to. By the time I had gotten a satisfactory grasp of the game a couple of days in, there were already other existing wagons that I was happy with first.
It comes down to you not a being a player I know well enough to POWERNOM after 5 posts, and me liking you enough that I would actually be terribly sad if I happened to be wrong and misnom'ed you D1.

3. Some players I can read with 90-100% accuracy within 10-30 seconds, but it doesn't apply this game as none of those are present. I don't share my reads unless I believe that they're likely to be right. This just so happens to be one of those games where I have a high number of townreads I'm comfortable with, and a scumread I feel confident in.

[Katsuki]

Gotcha fair enough on the second point then.
I remember when I played in 2011 that a 90 something page Mini game I was in was like the 4th longest game at the time . Things have definitely changed.

To me it felt like you had one reason to push dave that didn't really grow, and the fact you were the only one there for a while, where it felt things were kind of happening around you (at least that's the vibe I got at the time) it felt kind if tunelly?

You're going to make me sound like a boomer when I say that I played in a lot of activity record setting games back then. >_>

Ya, the reasons I had for suspecting Dave didn't really grow like you said, which is why I never escalated my push there.

[Katsuki]

you are super welcome to PM me pokemon avatars that look good and I might choose one.

Hi I think this one would look fabulous on you.

Spoiler:

[Katsuki]

Kyouko I think is scum. I'd prefer that here for certain.

If not kyouko, then who else would you entertain for nom de jour?

[Katsuki]

At this point, I'm half amused by watching to see who actually gets deadline nom'ed because we're 2 days out and still can't seem to come to a consensus. Scum are obviously fine with this gamestate so long as the wagon isn't on them. Hopefully those of you who are town start focusing up.

I am still of the opinion that Dragon has a high probability to flip scum here, and provides us the most information pertaining to the alignment of other players to crack this game wide open.

[Katsuki]

At this point, I'm half amused by watching to see who actually gets deadline nom'ed because we're 2 days out and still can't seem to come to a consensus. Scum are obviously fine with this gamestate so long as the wagon isn't on them. Hopefully those of you who are town start focusing up.

I am still of the opinion that Dragon has a high probability to flip scum here, and provides us the most information pertaining to the alignment of other players to crack this game wide open.

I believe this happened in the game where I rhymed previously
I ended up sniffing out a scum that was slanking deviously
I don't think we need to vote out another low-content slot
But I think taking the road less traveled is worth a shot

How about this, you give me dragon today, and I give you CCS tomorrow if I live? In the event that Black is scum, I don't think I live past today, and with dragon scumflip I think it'll be enough for you guys to go back and observe how diligently she worked to construct any wagon not named dragon from like pg16 on without me.

If we nom CCS today and he flips town, and I die overnight, I don't have the confidence that you guys will consecutively nom Dragon and Black D2/3 accordingly.

[Katsuki]

Your Dragon/Black read is hot garbage

There are many players I haven't tried to wagon that are not named Dragon

You're in a really bad tunnel rn if you're town

I'd be shocked if you thought my read was good

How about this, help me get untunneled on you by flipping Dragon today. ^_^

[Katsuki]

Kitty, Hu, Gamma, Dave, kyouko, Katsuki

I haven't tried to build a wagon on over half the player list so why are you misrepping me so bad?

Wake tf up

I did not misrep you, I said any wagon not dragon, not every single player not dragon. Factually, it's true that you have not entertained a dragon wagon once. The closest you came was a statement saying

"dragon could be scum"

, then later calling him town that same page.

[Katsuki]

I like Dragon and I don't think he's been particularly scummy so of course I haven't entertained a wagon there. And yeah I think he could be scum but he's in the bottom half of the players I'd like to fade today, so no, I won't be helping you push there

That's quite a lot of players you have in the pool ahead of "could be scum" then.

Unlucky for me, was hoping you could help me untunnel off of you.

[Katsuki]

VOTE: kyouko
While I think Dragon is a fine place to go,
I want to vote somewhere less covered, that being kyouko
honestly kyouko fits the bill of the scum I voted in the past rhyming game
since I regard both slot's content involving me as lame

we do have 2 days left

don't think you are going to get anywhere really

Glad you're aware. That's really rich coming from you given your contributions thus far today.

Are you ready to play with the class yet? Because the alternative seems like for her to move her vote back onto you.

[Katsuki]

I'll be fairly low activity into deadline. Good luck wagon building. o7

[Katsuki]

Won't be around later, I'm fine with doing this, L-1 by my count.

VOTE: NAERYS

[Katsuki]

Some overnight mood music before I get to this game tomorrow.

[Katsuki]

IN THE MEANTIME I CANT IGNORE THIS LOL

VOTE: DRAGON

[Katsuki]

I also townread most of the people on the wagon but my already weak confidence is a little shaken

Here have a song that was stuck in my head this weekend.

[Katsuki]

I was hoping to full send the wagon, but it was definitely a stretch. But you dilly-dallying probably ruined it

As much as I wanted a chance to look at the game today and post, I could never complain about quicknoms and sub24hr days lol.

[Katsuki]

Well majority seems to think there is a scum in kyouko/gamma/Dragon.

Possibly two

Now the question is, which players do you think believe in that latter statement?

[Katsuki]

I was going to try to roleswap with Kyouko if another person left the Dragon wagon

Hu Tao trying to stall for time was absolutely heinous

This is the kind of "100%" reaction I'm talking about btw - notably "absolutely heinous". The words like, ring out when she means them

So what do the 90-110% reactions look like? Like

"absolutely heinos"

and

"absolutely heinouss

"?

[Katsuki]

Well majority seems to think there is a scum in kyouko/gamma/Dragon.

Possibly two

Now the question is, which players do you think believe in that latter statement?

Did you really read 100 posts in 2 minutes and this was the only thing you wanted to comment on?

I haven't read, it was one of the p-edits that caught my eye on scroll thru.

[Katsuki]

I have 10 pgs to catch up on, lovely.

[Katsuki]

I gotta go get my kid, still not caught up

you dont actually have to reply to my post btw I just wanted to make a joke

[Katsuki]

Well majority seems to think there is a scum in kyouko/gamma/Dragon.

Possibly two

Now the question is, which players do you think believe in that latter statement?

The people that were talking at the time

Those names are?

[Katsuki]

I think there is at least 1 scum in them though.

Unlike traditional VCA, you think it's likely that at least 1 scum just so perfectly managed to be on during the 30min window that drove the Dragon wagon to L-2?

[Katsuki]

sup wolf

[Katsuki]

You already said you scumread me, and you mentioned you didn't want to push the person due to the game state and I think you're referring to a few people townreading me

What I don't understand is if you think I'm scum and you're town then why would you not push me? You seem content with just hopping on the Naerys wagon instead

Out of those wagons, I think she is the most likely to flip scum, and that her flip provides the most information.

Where is all this information you were supposed to gain from the Naerys flip?

Things have changed since pg15, 3 days into D1. My read progressed to DE scum, and as of present that's still the case. She was not my lead nom candidate, but her play towards the end of the day was nonsensical enough to justify deadline wagoning, and voting for her at that point in time gave me a chance to potentially have time to post again before day end if circumstances changed (eg. PR claim wagon shift). I'm still not done looking over the game yet to determine what her flipping town means for my reads.

[Katsuki]

We didn't have a night kill last night. I want to make sure it's clear if kyouko is claiming a guilty on dragon that our doc if we have one should be on kyouko

Even if she's not claiming guilty on dragon, our protective role should be on her anyways. Kyouko town is a strong town asset.

[Katsuki]

Okay. I'm not going to try and tip toe around this anymore.

Kyouko do you have a guilty on dragon or no?

No, I wouldn't have investigated Dragon and I'm usually the type to just come out with it if I have a guilty rather than play the "I really think it's them" game

Unfortunate, you had a chance to. I was heavily tempted to claim a fake guilty on Dragon today, but it would not have been a good idea to.

[Katsuki]

I think Katsuki is scummy

Mainly it seems like she has zero interest in convincing others that her scumreads are scum. I've been her strongest scumread for pretty much the entire game but she hasn't pushed me at all. She hasn't even questioned anyone else's townreads on me. It doesn't really feel like her scumread is as strong as she says it is. I think it could be a fake read

She didn't seem to have any issue with the Dragon wagon falling apart D1 despite comments like this:

I still think that Dragon is most likely to flip scum out of the leading nom candidates based off of a number of factors. I also have a sneaking suspicion that there's a good chance he is the strongest PR the wolves have.

I still think that Dragon is most likely to flip scum out of the leading nom candidates based off of a number of factors. I also have a sneaking suspicion that there's a good chance he is the strongest PR the wolves have.

Her confidence in these reads doesn't match her actions and reactions to things. She should be more concerned about people's townreads on me if she's sure I'm scum, and she should have fought more to keep the Dragon wagon going if she was of the belief that he was the best fade. Instead she just kinda faded into non-existence

She's not fighting for what she believes in and that makes me think she doesn't really believe in these things. She's just playing from the background

Well, it sure is a great thing that I'm getting my dragon wagon now then! ^_^

[Katsuki]

is this a sudden thought black or something that has been stewing for a while

nah shes been throwing sprinkles of suspicion my way all game now. Gotta keep reapplying the paint of scumminess on me to keep it fresh.

[Katsuki]

People usually don't get to e-1 that fast unless there is a guilty.

That's not true, when I played at least.

I'd be willing at this point in time to stake for later game reference that the votes of Kyouko, GE, Jackson and Katsuki were probably all town.

(no ones probably going to look back on this deeper into the game anyways but ya never know)

[Katsuki]

is this a sudden thought black or something that has been stewing for a while

I've been going back and forth on her slot, but this particular thought has been stewing awhile. I called her out on her lack of action towards me quite a bit D1

so like why the timing on supporting the wagon on me at the same time? the vibe I'm getting is that I'm like katsuki's pet scum read and i don't understand why you're moving to want to support that at the same time as casing a katsuki!scum world

do you have an independent read on my slot or think that we're partnered or anything

Yeah I have a tinfoil that she's trying to bus you in order to turbolim me

Your focus on this and you asking this question makes me want to believe it even more

Sounds like a great trade for town, especially if I'm supplying the wolf nom first!

Here, I decorated this tinfoil hat just for you!

Spoiler: This is totally shiny and aluminum btw

[Katsuki]

Sounds like a great trade for town, especially if I'm supplying the wolf nom first!

Here, I decorated this tinfoil hat just for you!

I look forward to flipping your scumbuddy. Maybe then you will FINALLY push your top scumread

Thanks, me too!

It also amuses me that you're just suddenly coming out with the Katsuki/Dragon scumlinks now, on the cusp of a Dragon scumflip.

I guess I spent the entire second half of D1 just powertunneling my buddy while simultaneously eliminating potential misnom options when I could have joined the CCS push instead.

[Katsuki]

Cute WIFOM, but you're wrong. You didn't powertunnel him. Your push on him was actually very weak, and you seemed perfectly content with everyone hopping off his wagon. Just like you seem perfectly content with a bunch of people townreading me. Your reads aren't real

[Katsuki]

I still think you wanting to “discuss” felt very disingenuous.

Am I wrong? You are not really a person who likes to go into major detail from what I know. As such you wanting “more time to discuss” doesn’t really feel like it’s your style. My theory is you’re covering for Dragon here so he can slip away, I am keenly aware that giving scum more time is a bad idea.

Reminder for you to keep this on your mind later in the game once you have more flips to work with.

[Katsuki]

Sounds like a great trade for town, especially if I'm supplying the wolf nom first!

Here, I decorated this tinfoil hat just for you!

I look forward to flipping your scumbuddy. Maybe then you will FINALLY push your top scumread

I'm pinning this post to the top of every page for the rest of the day btw. There should be absolutely 0 reason that today ends in anything other than a Dragon nom from this spot.

[Katsuki]

Well majority seems to think there is a scum in kyouko/gamma/Dragon.

Possibly two

Now the question is, which players do you think believe in that latter statement?

Can you explain why you ask this once Hu Tao answers?

Sure. Majority thinking there's scum in that pool of players is not a statement I'm going to question since there are indeed a number of players who've mentioned one of those players in the set being scum. It's also fairly a useless statement just out of sheer probability (that there are at least 5-6 players in the game that have expressed a scumread on one of kyouko/gamma/dragon).

Two of those players being scum, however, is a more serious statement. Thus I'm curious of the basis behind that comment if there were actually players that shared that view, or if it was solely a Hu Tao view that was mixed in with the prior statement to give an illusion of 'many people believe this'.

At this point, wolves need to figure out and start laying down preparations for who they're going to misnom chain to a dragon scum flip.

[Katsuki]

Sounds like a great trade for town, especially if I'm supplying the wolf nom first!

Here, I decorated this tinfoil hat just for you!

I look forward to flipping your scumbuddy. Maybe then you will FINALLY push your top scumread

[Katsuki]

At this point I'm willing to leave Dannflor alive to let him cook

Can we fade Katsuki instead? I don't think her reads are real

VOTE: Katsuki

Ahh the classic scum tactic of

"X is scum powerbussing their partner Y, lets flip X first!"

. I'd be rich if I got paid every time scum tried this on me.

[Katsuki]

Are you just gonna sit around and not engage with Dannflor's posts at all? Y'know, the guy you presumably think is lockscum?

Why should I be engaging with the slot I think is lockscum whom I already have my vote on?

[Katsuki]

Mainly it seems like she has zero interest in convincing others that her scumreads are scum. I've been her strongest scumread for pretty much the entire game but she hasn't pushed me at all. She hasn't even questioned anyone else's townreads on me. It doesn't really feel like her scumread is as strong as she says it is. I think it could be a fake read

Didn't she explicitly say that she was taking a step back and seeing how things pan out?

I did at the time.

Her arguments make 0 sense though. Just because I may hypothetically have a scumread on Black, doesn't mean it's protown for me to thus question each and every single player why they are townreading Black. That's not even a natural town thought to have in the first place, given that it's a horrendously ineffective way to scumhunt since more of those players are bound to be town than scum from a pure numbers perspective, and secondly just because people may have wrong reads misreading my scumread, so what? Does that make them all scum?

The order of things is entirely reversed. Looking into the player's townreads of flipped scum is something you do after a slot flips scum, not before.

Black's just flinging whatever shit she can at me in an attempt to portray me as scummy, hoping something sticks.

[Katsuki]

You should be pointing out stuff he's saying that is scummy because you should be interested in convincing others that you're right about him. You're not interested in this because your read is fake. It's too much effort for scum!you to case your scumreads so instead you just hang out in the background and pop in to shade people

I don't think today is ending in anything other than a DE nom. I think I've painted a large enough target on my back as a primary suspect in the unlikely event of a DE townflip.

What else are you going to try and discredit me with next?

[Katsuki]

This doesn't make any sense. I've never met someone who is not interested in why people townread their #1 scumread. If you are town then this is just a stubborn way to play. You're so convinced you're right about your page 5 gut read that you aren't even willing to listen to why other people that have way more experience playing with me townread me. You're supposed to work with other people to try to solve the game, not tunnel endlessly and refuse to cooperate with anyone

I don't think this type of behavior comes from town. I haven't seen a townie do what you're doing and quite frankly I'm getting annoyed by your bullshit

Well, you've met someone now then who enjoys sitting back and chilling. Congratulations.

Your statement of me not working with others is simply your scum-clouded version of events, just like your claim that my scumread on you is based on pg5 gut.

Our conversation is designed on your part to be a giant distraction from the dragon/dann wagon that doesn't advance town's gamestate other than act as feeble attempt discredit me.

My alignment is simple to figure out as the game progresses. I've spent two game days now pigeon-holing my alignment to be tied to DE/Black slot. What a wonderful scum strategy to guarantee instant death upon both of your townflips if this me driving the misnom train, or in your previous scenario, offering nothing to my team's wincon outside of POWERBUSSING DE-wolf in some grand master plan to setup a singular Black misnom.

[Katsuki]

You should be pointing out stuff he's saying that is scummy because you should be interested in convincing others that you're right about him. You're not interested in this because your read is fake. It's too much effort for scum!you to case your scumreads so instead you just hang out in the background and pop in to shade people

I don't think today is ending in anything other than a DE nom. I think I've painted a large enough target on my back as a primary suspect in the unlikely event of a DE townflip.

What else are you going to try and discredit me with next?

Assuming both are wolves, do you genuinely believe scum!black would make themselves look even worse to push you rather than just committing to the bus? I feel that's diminishing Black's skills pretty substantially to not even humour the idea that them doing this would be strange but with that being said I do think both have scum equity with pretty differing amounts but regardless if Black is a wolf, I don't think it's very likely at all Dragon is a wolf and vice versa.

I mean part of it is that I had been planning to do a deeper dive into her ISO this game to be doubly sure but I haven't had the time to because I've been engaging her.

I did play a minigame that I never normally do last night of flipping through random Black games to see if I can read her alignment correctly, and I was right about all her town games. I didn't finish going through the scum game but the way she actively played this game is so different from those other games, the scum motivation behind the posts she makes here has misnom intent unlike those town games.

[Katsuki]

I'm kinda jus ttrying to type as fast as I can since it seems like we have a hammer.

I think you've been quite intentional about how you've played this game with how you structure your posts and what you're looking to achieve with your posts this game compared to your other town games.

[Katsuki]

I didn't finish going through the scum game but the way she actively played this game is so different from those other games, the scum motivation behind the posts she makes here has misnom intent unlike those town games.

Before I add my own thoughts, can you explain what parts of what she's doing is misnom intent?

Ah, she's not actually hammered. Deleted my entire post because I really don't feel like going into more of a back and forth with her. It's one of those things I was waiting until I had actual flips to better justify the things I'm seeing to post.

I did have a reply written to your earlier overjustification post, but accidentally copied over my paste. :/ The answer to that question was yes though, she overjustifies a lot more not just her votes/unvotes, but also her stances. It boils down to her job being to look town as oppose to find scum.

[Katsuki]

I mean part of it is that I had been planning to do a deeper dive into her ISO this game to be doubly sure but I haven't had the time to because I've been engaging her

This is such bullshit

You've barely engaged with me all game. I've had to force these interactions out of you. You've had plenty of time to ISO dive me

You've been tying up pretty much all my time in the past hour or two.

[Katsuki]

I'm kinda jus ttrying to type as fast as I can since it seems like we have a hammer.

I think you've been quite intentional about how you've played this game with how you structure your posts and what you're looking to achieve with your posts this game compared to your other town games.

I think your meta read is garbage and if you're town then I'll be looking forward to adding you to the list of people that have tried to meta read me and failed miserably

We'll just have to see. My scumread on you was before I took a peek at your other games, which I only bothered to do because I would admittedly feel bad if I misread you this game since I enjoy you as a player. I never take the time to go out of my way to read games of other players that I wasn't in, you're the first by my memory.

[Katsuki]

It boils down to her job being to look town as oppose to find scum.

See this is my main problem with Black at the moment, and it's hurting my head quite a lot they are somehow are balancing a fine line between what I consider scummy, and then justifying it in a way that works well and it keeps going back and forth. Usually it's one way or another in my reads but they're like constantly dead on that line wobbling between the two and I'm unable to really see if that's just them as Town (the game I was reading them last, just closed I had a pretty substantial scum-read on them so this game has to be different somehow) or they're scum that's really good at squeezing out of things which is why I asked them directly which again is probably stupid but I really want this out of my head. I feel like I'm getting played?

She's good, is all I can say lol. It's a huge reason why I love her play so much and why I've just been sitting back. I'm enjoying how she plays and I neither have the energy nor the ego to try and make the game unpleasant for everyone else while I try my way to deathtunnel her into the ground D1. There's also a degree of unfamiliarity there ofc, so I really wanted to take my time to figure out the rest of the game before pushing for her.

Just look at her tactics to try and convince the game that my read on her is bad. What need is there for townBlack to do this when I'm not even pushing for her nom today, when I've been pretty clear that I want her flipped

after a dragondann scumflip

?

[Katsuki]

Anyway I'm starting to cross a personal line I've set for myself where I don't get super frustrated at the game, so I'm going to take a deep breath and just chill

I will say that this is just a game and that hopefully we can all enjoy ourselves, or at least not have a bad time from playing. Nothing is personal.

[Katsuki]

Just look at her tactics to try and convince the game that my read on her is bad. What need is there for townBlack to do this when I'm not even pushing for her nom today, when I've been pretty clear that I want her flipped after a dragondann scumflip?

I do this as town in every single game I play. When someone has a bad read on me I call them out on it. If you looked over my games you should know this

We can revisit this post-dragondann flip.

[Katsuki]

And part of the reason I brought up your bad read was because I thought you were scum and the read was fake

I'm not just calling your read bad so people will think I'm town. I wanted to show them that you're scum

I know that you want to show them that I'm scum, am well aware of that. I take no offense for you calling my reads or play bad.

[Katsuki]

Anyway I'm starting to cross a personal line I've set for myself where I don't get super frustrated at the game, so I'm going to take a deep breath and just chill

I will say that this is just a game and that hopefully we can all enjoy ourselves, or at least not have a bad time from playing. Nothing is personal.

<3

Yeah my bad. I recognize that I probably made it not enjoyable for a little bit there

Not at all, dw about it.

[Katsuki]

This just a meme solve: it would be funny if the team was Dann + cCS + Katsuki

That would be pretty funny if I tried to derail a nomwagon from one buddy to the other on D1.

[Katsuki]

Just look at her tactics to try and convince the game that my read on her is bad. What need is there for townBlack to do this when I'm not even pushing for her nom today, when I've been pretty clear that I want her flipped after a dragondann scumflip?

would you consider that people generally don't like it when other people read them wrong

That statement of yours has nothing to do with the words and tactics that were being employed in her posts yesterday.

Also it depends. I love it when people read me wrong when I'm scum.

As town, you should also have no idea if she actually ends up flipping town or scum this game. At the very least, you're making this statement with the assumption that she for sure received a town role PM.

[Katsuki]

(also I don't consider that being the case pre 2018, but am willing to concede it being more of a phenomenon post 2018 with ppl getting personally offended over being scumread after seeing games just devolving into toxic personal attacks between players whenever they felt they were being wrongfully scumread. Certainly not present in this game at least, thankfully)

[Katsuki]

3 votes on ccs. Only need 3 more votes. Black and Jackson care to join?

What happened to your "there is possibly 2 scum in {kyouko, GE, dragondann}"?

[Katsuki]

Possibly is the key word. Also I've already gave my list of people I want to vote in.

That's what makes you guys so hard to read, y'all throw out like scumreads on 8 different players that shift on a 2-day basis. XD

But that aside, my issue with the post when you made it initially was that it seemed like setting up misnoms for you to go push for kyouko/GE scum upon a dragondann scumflip.

[Katsuki]

3 votes on ccs. Only need 3 more votes. Black and Jackson care to join?

What happened to your "there is possibly 2 scum in {kyouko, GE, dragondann}"?

I'm sus of katsuki, kyouko, Dragon, gamma and Camel.

Not in any order. I wouldn't be surprised if at least 2 scum is in there.

Convenient you left this post out.

I didn't see this actually. Fair enough.

[Katsuki]

The way I see it cCS being scum doesn’t preclude Hu Tao’s earlier statement

I honestly just think CCS nom today is so bad in the context of Naerys townflip D1.

The obvious common theme behind both wagons being Black being the momentum generator on both.
She was the one that laid the original post detailing the "case" for CCS scum that got that wagon started.
She was the 3rd vote that pushed momentum for deadline nom of Naerys.

I have a feeling that even in the event where you guys flip Naerys and CCS town, you still won't nom Dragondann accordingly tomorrow. Which is a scary scenario for town.

[Katsuki]

I find it interesting you're coming for me today Katsuki. You had me as a strong Town read yesterday. What changed?

I'm trying to figure out who the 3rd wolf is.

I think that jackson, kyouko and by proxy GE are town.

Your play today hasn't given me comfy vibes today compared to yesterday.
Kitty I'm not comfortable enough giving a free townpass on but hasn't given me reason to go on yet.
Thomath feels much worse today than he did yesterday.
Dave I feel better about today compared to the hardnullsus of yesterday.
CCS just reads like misnom fodder.

So yeah, gut says it's one of you/Thomath that I'm likely wrong on, and I'd probably lean Thomath at the given moment in time of post writing.


dragondann flip is far more illuminating as to the motivations of other players so far this game and thus their alignment. I'm more focused on getting him flipped, then trying to nail down 3rd wolf right here right now.

[Katsuki]

That's what makes you guys so hard to read, y'all throw out like scumreads on 8 different players that shift on a 2-day basis

Are you implying that I'm hard to read? Because that's not the impression I've gotten from you this game. You seem pretty convinced I'm scum

Nah, you're one of the few players who posts with easily followable logical intent >_>

[Katsuki]

I think it's odd that you're painting me as the momentum generator on the current CCS wagon when it's Hu Tao that is campaigning for the fade

This just feels like shade for the sake of it

I'm talking about D1 if that post wasn't clear with the wagon order.

[Katsuki]

Or so you think

If you're town then the pie on your face at the end of the game will be very sweet

I'm sure it will.

[Katsuki]

Or so you think

If you're town then the pie on your face at the end of the game will be very sweet

This is a terrible post for me to make if I'm playing to win, but I'm mode retirement no cares have fun.

Let's play a fun WIFOM game because I'm bored.

If I'm dumbtown, which reads of mine are wrong?

[Katsuki]

I find it interesting you're coming for me today Katsuki. You had me as a strong Town read yesterday. What changed?

I'm trying to figure out who the 3rd wolf is.

I think that jackson, kyouko and by proxy GE are town.

Your play today hasn't given me comfy vibes today compared to yesterday.
Kitty I'm not comfortable enough giving a free townpass on but hasn't given me reason to go on yet.
Thomath feels much worse today than he did yesterday.
Dave I feel better about today compared to the hardnullsus of yesterday.
CCS just reads like misnom fodder.

So yeah, gut says it's one of you/Thomath that I'm likely wrong on, and I'd probably lean Thomath at the given moment in time of post writing.


dragondann flip is far more illuminating as to the motivations of other players so far this game and thus their alignment. I'm more focused on getting him flipped, then trying to nail down 3rd wolf right here right now.

These reads aren't terrible. I think Jackson might be a little too high, and Dann too low. Hu Tao is probably town

I don't really think you're "dumbtown" on any of these except your read on me

So where does the scumteam fit in then in that case if it's not you and Dann is too low?

[Katsuki]

So where does the scumteam fit in then in that case if it's not you and Dann is too low?

Scum is probably like CCS/Thomith/Jackson but I don't have much confidence that this is the complete solve. I work better after some flips and associations

It's a shame you won't give me dragondann today. We could've been best friends upon his townflip if you really think I'm wrong on him.

[Katsuki]

If one more person votes Dann I'll hammer BTW.

Hey Dann can you vote Dannflor?

[Katsuki]

okay

dayvig: hu tao

Nice.

I'll take this opportunity to claim N2 compulsive PGO.

PLEASE STAY AWAY TONIGHT FAM IF YOU DONT WISH TO DIE THANKS

[Katsuki]

That’s atrocious if real and she flips town

Are dayvigs normal now? I thought they weren't lol

[Katsuki]

I did whoops. I believe Katsuki is Town because they are not entirely for sure, but a lot of how they're acting is in their own little bubble. I feel experience leaking from them more than anybody else in this game which I'm not sure how much of that's true but it's the feeling I am getting so the fact they're in their own little bubble and not really putting too much focus into getting their teeth into the game as I would expect from them, even if they weren't as experienced as I am assuming, doesn't make much sense from a wolf perspective. In day one where I was talking with her about the three reads she had, I felt that the reads she had were genuine and were not made just for the sake of making a push. This could very well be done on purpose as a way to make this argument, as she has made this argument herself which drops its weight for me somewhat but in what world would scum hard-lock themselves onto a push such as theirs on Dragon's slot from that early in the game to this point? That feels incredibly silly, now that I'm saying this now though I feel like I'm holding my SR of Dragon's slot into this read so I'll try and take it out. I feel that taking into account my feelings about her level and seeing that for what it is, exponentially comes from town more than scum. Even with that pushed to the side, the discussion we had around the three slots made me feel like I connected and "mind-melded" in a way that I could feel her genuine feelings towards the slots, it felt like I was talking with someone who genuinely believed what they were preaching, and that comes from a Town.

How does it feel being mind-melded?

[Katsuki]

Katsuki is someone I really wanna play more with

IDK about that, I have a very established reputation as a lurker VI.

[Katsuki]

I feel like I've been burned by ignoring a replacement's scummy behavior more often than I've been rewarded by ignoring it.

People tend to do this a lot. Big difference between Dann replacing into a slot that already gave us a lot of info vs Jackson replacing into a 2 post slot.

[Katsuki]

Cute.

[Katsuki]

That's all it is really, just not thinking all 3 scum would risk voting together on a misfade. I don't think it's super common. I know Dann linked a game but I feel like that's the exception, not the rule. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong here if anyone has more compelling evidence. I've only been playing for a year

I've certainly played a game before where my entire scumteam just voted as a 4-man scumblock (then 3) all game long.

VCA with 1 flip is a pretty fruitless endeavor regardless.

[Katsuki]

i think ive been holding back tbh for how sick i am of people not bothering to read me because it's too hard

Which players do you think have been doing that?

Also because I wouldn't want you to be upset, I'll say that I read you as scum.

[Katsuki]

I'd be surprised if I lived until endgame tbh

[Katsuki]

I wouldn't be

If you're wrong about Dann then that means you are endlessly tunnelled on two townies. You're no threat to scum in this scenario

Mmm, quite unfortunate that I haven't been able to find a reason for you to not be scum in 374 posts.

[Katsuki]

I wouldn't be

If you're wrong about Dann then that means you are endlessly tunnelled on two townies. You're no threat to scum in this scenario

Mmm, quite unfortunate that I haven't been able to find a reason for you to not be scum in 374 posts.

I think that says more about you than it does me since quite a few other people have found me as town

IDK how much stock I put on other people's ability to read you accurately Ms. 6-0.

[Katsuki]

~•~

This is such a cuter bump

[Katsuki]

A lim is needed. I don't know anyone's alignment. So I vote. I don't see any denial there.

A nom is needed again, you should come join the town party on dragondann!

[Katsuki]

Stuff to do first, and there are 5 days.

Just don't forget

[Katsuki]

I'd like other opinions on this

Sure. She's probably town.

[Katsuki]

Why?

Because I think I saw the green word Village in her role PM.

I'm color blind and dyslexic tho.

[Katsuki]

Oh ok cool story bro

I also didn't see her name in your role PM if that helps.

[Katsuki]

p-edit: GDI THAT WAS MINE

[Katsuki]

People definitely found me as scum in those 6 games. It took a combination of good teamwork and some weaseling out of tough situations to win them all. But sure, go ahead and assume I was universally townread in those games and just steamrolled everyone. Whatever it takes to keep convincing yourself you're right about me

Most of it is based on what's happening in this game tbh.

Trying to find a way to say that without hurting the confidence of the townies who may be wrong about you this game, because clearly you have many players fooled this game. Your scum and town games are so incredibly distinct from one another that it's personally obvious to me. All the things I noticed from this game were missing from every town game of yours, and only present in the scum games. The reason for it is really just because you're proficient at scum and recognizing what you need to do as scum to achieve your wincon. So unless you suddenly decided to play to a scum wincon as town this game, it's really just simply that you're scum this game.

Just because other's don't share my view, doesn't mean that I have to conform to everyone else's belief.

[Katsuki]

Vote me then. Push me. Explain to the class why I'm scum instead of just popping in with shade every now and then. The confidence in your read mixed with your lack of action makes zero sense from a town!you perspective

Sure it makes sense; I already have a scumwagon at L-1.

You could always just hammer him, and if he flips town, I sheep you the rest of the game no questions asked.

[Katsuki]

Why am I the only player that notices Katsuki's positioning around me is TERRIBLE

I don't think it's terrible.

[Katsuki]

It's absolutely terrible

Your read doesn't make sense

Everything you say about me indicates you're absolutely sure I'm scum, but then you've mentioned twice now that if Dann flips town you'll think I'm town

You mean to tell me your read on me is PURELY an association read based on me being scum with Dann, yet you post stuff like 1969 and 2004? What the fuck?

Actually, I think it's fairly obvious what's been established for the class every time I've pushed you on dragondann today.

[Katsuki]

Sounds like a great trade for town, especially if I'm supplying the wolf nom first!

Here, I decorated this tinfoil hat just for you!

I look forward to flipping your scumbuddy. Maybe then you will FINALLY push your top scumread

[Katsuki]

For any TFT players here, I gotta say hitting a 3* 4c on 5-1 is probably one of the most satisfying feelings ever.

[Katsuki]

I want katsuki to explain what things she sees as signs of your scumplay
I don't particularly care for that statement unsubstantiated

You can comb my iso for the bits and pieces. Beyond that, I don't plan to break down her scumplay, that's just rude (also in the words of Ooba,

"never tell someone their tell once you've spotted it"

.

I've only been calling for Dragondann + Black since #686. I've given Black copious amounts of opportunities today to

bus him

prove me wrong that it's the two of them and she's balked every time. Even when she called me scum with dragondann, she tried to go for my nom first, which is classic scum misnom strat that was also laid out somewhere in my ISO already.

At this point I think it's clear she won't ever call my deal for dragondann flip because she knows it will never flip town. She's done everything from calling for pie on my face for being wrong on her, yet she's been given all the opportunity in the world today to prove that I can't read this game for shit and refused to take it.

[Katsuki]

VOTE: Black

This was why I didn't want to seriously push Black today but I couldn't control myself. I don't want to shift attention from one scumwagon to another scumwagon only to watch them both get away at the end of the day.

We focus on dragondann first and Black's alignment will become obvious.

[Katsuki]

I'm going to stop being a distraction to town goal of nomming Dann now. I just wanted to make it abundantly clear today that Black should get powernommed upon Dannwolf flip.

[Katsuki]

I'm thinking at this point her heels are dug far enough in that either flip will damn the other. I'm still for a Dann lim but we've had opportunity for it to get hammered and Black backed down when intent was given. I want to try to push this at least for a little while - it will definitely be easier to get to Dann with Black out of the way too.

Sure. I think the order matters because Dann is more likely to be a PR than black, but I won't get in the way of your push.

[Katsuki]

How is Katsuki being wagoned right now?

Scum getting desperate.

[Katsuki]

Just a hunch.

Thought process is my ISO.

[Katsuki]

if Dann is a PR he's a scum PR, this continued defeatism from both members of the slot is not what town PR does.

Yeah I'm saying he's possibly a POWERFUL WEREWOLF if that wasn't clear.