The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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Hey now, do we really need to go that far? Work with us here, tbm.TheButtonmen wrote:TheButtonmen wrote:Day one starts once ten people have confirmed in thread.
Eight slots have confirmed so far, your voting while amusing is also pointless.
Balam, confess!Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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We were talking about the presented quotes in #120. We originally thought the contradiction was imaginary but after AIM-fueled reflection came to the conclusion that the point of view Gummybear puts forth does contain an inconsistency. We however feel the inconsistency is, if anything, genuine and not the result of intentionally taking an anti-town position. We dislike the amount of reasoning put forth in #120 since, as evidenced by our position, we don't feel the relevant conclusion follows as straightforwardly as the lack of reasoning suggests.Pathetric wrote:What do you think I was trying to say?Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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I agree with Ether, haven't we learned our lesson from Bible Verse Mafia? Allowing out-of-game sources can be problematic even without direct proof of authenticity.
Final Destination's defense is weaksauce. This wagon is reaching its final destination:Unvote, vote: Final DestinationEverything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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We still like our Final Destination vote - the meta argument has merit and the first response reeked of scummy. ISOing Pathetric in light of YosCayke's argument we find ourselves in agreement with the latter.
As evidenced by our single vote change. Try reading the thread.Untrod Stranger wrote:All that Frogito has done is wait for bandwagons to grow just big enough to hop on unceremoniously. Has no strong opinions, but yet jumps on the biggest wagons at the time.
I never worry about intentional quickhammers. Unintentional quickhammers are a different story.Untrod Stranger wrote:And the cincher is that insencere warning about the L-1. That line sounded like a surreptious invitation for someone to hammer. Notice he wasnt afraid of the quickhammer, otherwise he wouldnt have voted. So then why put up a warning?Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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We don't care about your stupid anti-meta stance, Greymarble.
RTFT? I'm enough of an opportunistic bandwagonner normally that I know that that's not what I'm doing currently.Untrod Stranger wrote:Hey FrogJerky, dont be trying that arrogant asshole "RTFT" bullshit on me, it doesnt work. Your single vote change is enough to convince me of rampant opportunism. Sit on it long enough to not arouse suspicion and then hop on the more likely wagon now.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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We are in favour of edited VCs.
@Greymarble, easy. Fate is very aggressive and active as town. Final Destination has not been aggressive or especially active. There's ample scum motive since his town style is hard to emulate and furthermore, we've seen him try to clean up his act in Wait your turn, Tex and the difference wasn't nearly as big there. So yep, that's a good meta-based argument.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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1. That's not the entirety of our case, as should be evident from the way we phrased it. The main thrust of our case is #142, which is a weird overreaction that intentionally focuses on the weaker parts of the meta arguments and tries to dismiss the stronger parts by suggesting they must be similar.Final Destination wrote:1. Besides using meta as the entirety of his case being extremely weak,
2. FES uses SOLELY FATE'S meta in his post. What kind of logical fallacy is this? That since Fate is part of the hydra, if it is not posting like Fate's "town style" it is scum. Seriously, AGM's name isn't even MENTIONED in this post.
3. Using other game examples of me "trying something new" to imply that unless I fail miserably at cleaning up my act I'm scum... as if it were impossible for me to improve. I'll admit I didn't give Tex's game HALF as much effort at this one D1, since I basically treated it like a marathon/mechanic based game and didn't take it seriously at all. This game isn't an attempt to "clean up my act" btw, as I said earlier its an attempt to apply my hydra philosophy (that both heads shoul dagree on everything before posting) to a HYDRA BASED game. This results in more thought out posts, less caps (hard to CAPS when co-writing something), and... yeah.
4. AGM wants to list a fuckton of my games where I emulate my town style, which is apparently "difficult," as scum. If you're going to use meta to sit on a wagon, at least get it fucking right.
2. We don't feel sufficiently familiar with AGM's meta to make that type of argument about him. Certainly the hydra nature of your slot makes meta-based arguments harder to apply, but when the difference is this big, they're definitely still applicable.
3. We're having a hard time believing there wouldn't be any room for a more boisterous Fate in this new framework. It is clear that part of the change is intentional; that doesn't fully explain your behaviour.
4. You can start by linking us one.
Someone doesn't understand early-game bandwagonning.Spot wrote:Tunnels on us.
Shanba was not yet familiar with the ways of the hydra.Spot wrote:Suddenly changes their mind and says we were probably playing badly, not scummily. Only...there's no unvote.
#142 is the main reason we're voting for Final Destination. Seeing as it was made by AGM, I don't see how it would be relevant to our Fatemeta argument.Spot wrote:Tries to rectroactively give a little reasoning and comes up with meta and "their response reeked of scummy". Not convincing at all. Still looks like a bandwagon vote.I mentioned the defense as being weaksauce in the original voting post.
Greymarble wrote:Did you even read post #142? Y'know, right when you mentioned them not being aggressive and all?Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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I've been having the issue that every time I see something I want to post, either CES is not there for me to run it by or he's already posted something about it, leaving only redundancy in his wake . He's kindly deigned to let me take this one, though.
The yoshate is as distinctly bad as the FES hate.
is pretty hilarious really. I'm extremely surprised that he'd choose to attack yos and not us, given there's already a wagon on us, and his reasoning is distinctly weak - people always call ether obvtown cause she IS obvtown most of the time. I'm not really feeling it yet - still don't think her vote on gummybear was particularly good - but CES thinks she's town so you know whatever.FES has overall not much in the way of content as I look through their postings.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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We find the "not forming a bloc" accusation silly. No offense to Ether, but I don't particularly trust her reads either. As a whole, the case is unconvincing and contains elements that seem shoehorned in. We still like our vote.
Why the qualifier?Yeastarian2 wrote:legitimately scummyEverything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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I'm not sure they would've thought that far ahead. It's not an obvious consequence if you haven't seen people post logs before.Pathetric wrote:but that pushing for the mod to allow everyone to reveal their private hydra quicktopics or logs is probably a town tell (I think scum would be hesitant to have to get into making faking logs or having to come up with tons of fake scumhunting conversations in their quicktopics).
We may both be in the scumchat in-crowd, but I (CES) haven't played with Ether all that much. Apart from [redacted, ongoing], there's no game with both of us since 2008.Pathetric wrote:and talking about isoing Ether and agreeing with Yos2 seems forced, I wouldn't have thought either CES or Shanba would need to do that to determine Ether's alignment.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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We agree with this sentiment. We have serious trouble believing that FD believes some of the things that he's posted (e.g. his appeal to Lynch All Liars).Yeastarian2 wrote:It really looks like you just decided "I really wanna for for Yos now, because I want to get him off my back, what bullshit justification can I invent for it."
We are unconvinced by the case against US.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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Isn't "Quoting your hydra qt is fine." just the naïve go-to position? We think it's a town tell because it suggests there are things in the qt that they want to quote, but not because they held the wrong position re: hydra QTs.Lord Fonzi wrote:however we (and particularly the Fonz head) think that the QT-posting thing, given that it would likely be disastrous for scum, is an enormous towntell.
Vote: Final DestinationEverything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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Bullshit.Final Destination wrote:I know we never called him town but we thought he was very town, aka our stance on FES being scum yesterday.This is a lie. You were voting YosCayke and pushing their wagon for most of Day 1 and you were still doing it at the end.
Confirm vote: Final Destination
Calling one post good isn't the same as agreeing with a wagon. P.S. There are 2 people in this hydra.Final Destination wrote:Agreeing with popular bandwagon, without a bandwagon vote When the FUCK have you ever seen a CEStown not on the main wagon d'jour? Especially one he AGREES with? For a tactical bandwagon hopper he sure has tunneled on me a fuck of a lot,
Bad =/= scummy.Final Destination wrote:He said 323 was bad yesterday, however he forGOES a BW wagon today (ala Balam's vote)
Question: Do you disagree that #323 and #328 are bad and good posts respectively?
We intended to get in a good post (i.e. not a one-liner like that one) later, but then the Day ended.Final Destination wrote:He has no original content, which he PROMISED "later" in the post.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Hmm. I obviously leaped to a conclusion there, but it's ambiguous - US is tangential to that what he's talking about and the supposed relation between our alignment and YosCayke's is clearly established in FD's posting. In any case it's still a lie - at the end of the day he was advocating that YFC was scum and that by associative tells we weren't.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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We're slightly baffled by the suggestion that we should be voting beaverweasel, considering we had a much stronger scum read on final destination yesterday. On the basis of a single post that we thought was a bad one, not even a scummy one (bad refers to the quality of the case, not possible motivation), we're apparently supposed to throw away everything we have on FD?
Or is the argument that someone voted for BW first, and that he's therefore a bandwagon, and we should therefore be sheeping on that wagon? Cause that's also pretty clearly dumb. (- Shanba)
The reasons we had for voting Final Destination yesterday still hold. In particular, his SHOCK and HORROR at HOW DARE PEOPLE VOTE ME is so awkward and over the top it simply doesn't look honest.
daspot's pushing on UB yesterday looks like scum going after a weak target. Unicorn brethren is a loose cannon, and probably dangerous to the town just by virtue of being totally unpredictable (see: the hammer on US - who saw THAT coming?) But we don't think he looks scummy, not at all. Plus, there's number of posts where it looks like one head is trying to reign in the other - and in particular, going from an unpopular position (UB is scum) to a popular one (FES is scum). He's probably a scumbag too.
Yoscayke is still just town. Also why would yoscaykescum spend ages buttering up pathetric then off them night 1?Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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Your previous post clearly implied differently, stating a level of consistency that simply wasn't there.FD wrote:We just never got the chance to post it because there was a quickwagon derrrrp.
And then the morning hit, and we made our stance abundantly clear. So stop acting like "OMG FD is making stuff up!" Our advocacy is 100% clear ALL. THE. TIME.
If you make a mistake, your case is void!FD wrote:Also, it's really telling how bad your vote is that it's all predicated on "yeah, but's." E.g., You say something that's wrong, somebody tells you its wrong, and then you go, "Yeah, but what about THISSS!"
We think it's a townie's duty to point out true things. Thus, I see the truth of those statements to be pretty relevant to motivation.FD wrote:But ok... so you're saying unless you say somethign CONTROVERSIAL that I DISAGREE with we can't find you scum? That seems to be what you're implying, that because "well what I SAID wasn't wrong, was it?" that somehow constitutes as a defense of TOWN motivation in your posts. You're wrong, and scum.
*shrug* Priorities change.FD wrote:Ok, then NIGHT ended, and was THIS your good post?:Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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By voting without commenting on the meta argument we implicitly endorsed it. I'm not sure why you'd hold FD flying under the radar prior to that point against us - I don't believe there's any serious comment about FD prior to the meta argument by anyone.Lord Fonzi wrote:Froggy: Our big issue here is the FD vote. Jumping a wagon at L-1 with 'their defense of the accusations against them was weak' as justification looks about as obvious a scum piling on vote as this head has ever seen. That they'd shown no interest in FD earlier makes it even worse.
That depends to a great extent on what type of players it contains. They've struck us as Mastinesque so far, which would make it fairly null.Balam wrote:All right, so we know now that you meant that BeaverWeasel's case was bad. What does that say about BeaverWeasel's alignment?Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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If one of them had realized it, I don't think they would've suggested it (assuming there was a consensus in the first place; RC strikes me as a person who'd suggest it in-thread regardless). And that was a town tell committed by UB, not FD.GummyBear wrote:Surely ONE of the heads would have realized how disastrous it would be for scum-UB to have that rule in place. Additionally, he talks about a specific towntell committed by FD, and then votes for FD.
Yeah, no.Unicorn Brethren wrote:We are totally ready to drop it like it's hot on FES, but will wait for him to speak first.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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That post had "More content later." in it for a reason. Trying to paint that as representative of our play is scummy.Final Destination wrote:I mean, have they commented SWEETFUCKALL on other people other than an occasional? "This post is bad, This post is good" with even still a later QUALIFIER that bad posts aren't even scummy!
Our comment on Spot was intended as an answer to this question the first time you posed it.Copper wrote:Frogito Ergo Sum, who is your second strongest scum read?Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Our meta argument was based on your behaviour then. Obviously, once that argument has been made, you have plenty of incentive to change up your game and this in no way invalidates the early scum tell.Final Destination wrote:
IM GLAD YOU LINKED THATFrogito Ergo Sum wrote: @Greymarble, easy. Fate is very aggressive and active as town. Final Destination has not been aggressive or especially active. There's ample scum motive since his town style is hard to emulate and furthermore, we've seen him try to clean up his act in Wait your turn, Tex and the difference wasn't nearly as big there. So yep, that's a good meta-based argument.
POINTS FOR WHO SPOTS THE SCUMBAG.Frogito Ergo Sum wrote: The reasons we had for voting Final Destination yesterday still hold. In particular, his SHOCK and HORROR at HOW DARE PEOPLE VOTE ME is so awkward andover the top it simply doesn't look honest.
FD didn't really catch our eye before Greymarble drew attention to them. We voted them in our next post. It may be instructive to note that the entire wagon sprung up in less than 6 hours; we were never in a position to join the wagon at an earlier point.Lord Fonzi wrote:They seem to be saying 'They were really scummy, but we happened not to notice until they were already at L-2.'Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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We don't have a weak townread on Unicorn Brethren, we have a strong townread on Unicorn Brethren and (actually rather more importantly) if you look around, we're hardly unique in that position. UB is, on the other hand, a very easy target. And you pushed him pretty damn hard. You called him out for inconsistency, voted him, posted things like this and this, but then suddenly turn around and post this? Like, in that post he says they FoSsed him because "His first few posts in the game threw us off." when if you actually read the post containing the FoS, that's not what happened at all.DaSpotthatkillsu wrote:@ FES (whenever it was you posted this)
I think that we didn't push that hard on Unicorn Brethren, and that even if we had, your apparently weak townread on UB should not make that a scumtell. Also, we STARTED the "popular" position on you.
@ FD
I would GLADLY be on the FES wagon.unvote vote:FESI'm just afraid my other head will want to switch it back for some reason.
I mean, how can you make posts like this and say you weren't pushing UB hard? Also you didn't START the popular position on us. You're the third vote on the wagon, after Untrod Stranger and Final Destination (both of whom wrote up cases that are now the backbone of the case on us.) That's very definitely not starting a position.
We think the lynch is possible, but not likely. It's an issue we're aware of, but we feel FD vs. us isn't going to go away and the only real alternative (Beaverweasel/SVT) is not a good lynch (since we need to do better than random.)Copper wrote:Frogito Ergo Sum:Do you think FinalDestination is going to be lynched today?Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Frankly, none of our top suspects have a lot of votes. We're not going to compromise onto a wagon we view as strictly worse than our current wagon unless we have some pressing reason to - either because we believe the pressure will give interesting reactions or because there's a deadline or because the wagon isn't that much worse than our current one.Copper wrote:FinalDestination is not getting lynched today. Even if he is scum, your vote is not helping to lynch scum. You know this.
We would compromise onto a daspot wagon.
If you're going to make this claim, back it up.Spot wrote:We may have been 3rd in the vote count for FES but who came up with that good as balls case? hmmm... oh right us.
P.S. Yes, you were pushing the wagon.
'Balam wrote:Frogito Ergo Sum, in post 450, you pointed out a number of things from DaSpotthatkillsu's behavior toward Unicorn Brethren early on Day 1. Would the possibility that those 3 posts you linked in the first paragraph came from 2 different heads make any difference to your read?
No, it makes no difference to our read. We actually discussed it together when discussing daspot and came to the conclusion that one head is probably backtracking for the other's awful position.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Consider that Spot is our #2 suspect (we've made this abundantly clear). Consider that the FDwagon isn't going anywhere. Can you say with a straight face that voting for Spot in this situation isn't obviously the right thing to do for us?Lord Fonzi wrote:Oh, and just to note, given that last bit of rampant opportunism, this head will definitely prefer a FES lynch to a spot one if it comes to that.
Don't be a twatdonkey.Greymarble wrote:I've put up with enough bullshittery voting from FES in [REDACTED ONGOING GAME] he gets his ass lynched out of this one.
It doesn't. We were aware of the problem before you asked us (I don't forget my guiding philosophy when scum!) and vote change would've happened regardless of your little "game".Copper wrote:Congratulations, when poked and prodded enough you can begin to act vaguely pro-town. Why does it takes pokes and prods?
You can add town reads to YosCayke and Copper (he played much scummier in our earlier game) to that list if you want.Balam wrote:I'm not willing to lynch GummyBear at this point in time because they actually have a wider range of stances and reasons behind them, whereas Appleface has locked themselves onto a single pair without even mentioning anyone else except... let's see, Unicorn Brethren (town) and Super Vanilla Townie (bad lynch, worse than random). I probably shouldn't be accusing Greymarble of tunneling whilst these guys are still alive.
Totally unreadable, as evidenced by the fact that quite a lot of people have non-null reads on us? I (CES) may play ultra-concisely occasionally, but there is very litte basis for that claim otherwise.Greymarble wrote:P.S. If FES's playstyle is to be totally unreadable, town or scum, then it's time to say "I dun care. " I've been accused of being hard to read, but it was because I read as town when I was scum. Not because I always read as meh.
I totally do that as scum too.Greymarble wrote:That being said I don't even find the meta case that convincing, and the last 'unvote, vote' just seems like a 'well, better play to my town meta' more than anything else.
These two are probably most useful in that regard.Lord Fonzi wrote:I'd kinda like to see some CES scum meta to be honest, because I doubt it's THAT different.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Because there's a viable wagon that we agree with. You'd think that we'd be able to make a more useful vote than FD, but for the longest time the only genuinely viable wagons were the one on us and the one on BeaverWeasel.Lord Fonzi wrote:But why now? The timing doesn't seem to fit with any honest appraisal of the game. You stayed on FD far longer than it was doing any good. So one might think, fine, they're tunneling. But if you're really tunneling, why wouldn't you wait until the last possible moment to change your vote? So it looks like you tried to look like you were tunneling to justify the earlier wagon hop, but then dropped the tunnel as soon as there was a viable counterwagon to your own. Which says playing to survive to me.
Here are the other two games I've played as scum since my return (as CES).Lord Fonzi wrote:of course, these are the scum games CES WANTED us to seeEverything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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I hope CES will forgive me for taking the opportunity to post under my own steam, here, but I just NEED to at this stage. I'm baffled by this wagon. I don'tgetit, and it's almost certainly largely scum driven. I mean, I'm not even sure why FD is voting us any more - it seems like he's just tunneled hard on us (his latest accusation of us tunneling is laughable, in context) - we called out his ridiculous overreaction (which IS scummy, like it or not) and cited the meta case, and now he thinks we're scum? Uph. Honestly I'm beginning to lose conviction that they're scum anyway, but w/e. We're not voting them any more. If we survive and CES still thinks you're scum, we'll have to compromise or w/e.
The one thing I've learnt from this game is that CES and I have massively different playstyles. Personally, I think we should have been pushing FD harder earlier, and he thinks we should have jumped off the FD wagon earlier, and between us we ended up doing neither and parking our vote there for no real reason.
Frankly I think Copper's jump on our wagon is scummy. He skirts around it for ages, then invents a little game that allows him to jump on board. I don't like people telling me not to vote someone. I'm pretty certain that we could still get FD lynched if we tried - but well, I guess we haven't really been making things happen this game. It's hard when everyone thinks you're scum and no one will listen to what you say except to invent scumtells in it (/bitter).
Daspot is like ridiculously insanely scummy and I have no idea how ANYONE can think he's town. Like, that exchange at the beginning, read it again. He votes UB, pushes UB (and yes, that is pushing. WTF. I have no idea how he can think that shit isn't pushing - repeating "omg x is scummy" and bringing him up over and over is pushing the lynch) and then his partner comes in, realises what a terrible idea it is to push the ridiculously soft UB wagon and tries to reposition them. Peu importe that everyone thinks they're town - it's a soft wagon because UB is essentially this game's VI, this game's designated day 1 wagon (and that he didn't get more votes is pretty extraordinary, really) and pushing that wagon is generally both attractive and lethal to scum. So yeah, daspot needs to die.
Apart from that, I personally liked the gummybear case that fonzi was talking about - CES was lukewarm on it though. Hah, that's counter to my meta, I know, but lurking scum is back in vogue (probably since no one lynches lurkers any more). On that note, if me and CES have had low activity it's partly because we haven't agreed on much.
I don't really want to claim, and fonzi's suggestion that us getting out of this mess sans claim would mean we're scum is bullshit.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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Shanba wrote:
?Ergo, the only way Froggy survives this without a claim is if he's scum. Therefore, I want a claim.
My bad, wrong account.Shanba wrote:
Actually this is a massive glaring backtrack and I'm baffled copper didn't call you out on it.Gender: Male
Post #636 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:56 pm
Copper wrote:
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Fonzi: If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that any last-minute energy towards daSpot would indicate FES scum (because we're the only voter on the FES wagon who would be similarly happy with a daSpot lynch.) Why wouldn't you want to keep that to yourself, and see if this change in momentum indeed occurs?
Eh? I'm not saying that at all. I was saying there wasn't any chance of that momentum shift actually happening, so we might as well stop going round in circles. I kinda agree with FD here...
Just to elaborate further - it's impossible to read the sentence "the only way froggy survives without a claim is if he's scum" without an implicit "If he's scum, it's possible he survives. The sentence makes no sense otherwise. Then he later says "there wasn't any chance of that momentum switch happening" with an implicit "even if he is scum". I'd have said it wasn't important, but a) copper letting it go for no apparent reason and b) him then calling me out for using his exact words leaves a serious bad taste in my mouth.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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@Copper, Shanba really only describes part of why our vote got parked on FD. The main reason, as far as I'm concerned, was lack of a proper alternative. It's hard to convince Shanba to vote for someone else when you yourself are barely convinced that this vote switch will do any good.
You haven't played with me nearly enough to make that kind of call and I don't know why you think you do. A completely unforced retraction of a case isn't a priori scummy. As far as I can tell, you made a case based on the observation that Fate wasn't aggressive which you didn't actually agree with as a result of a general stance on meta. I, on the other hand, think meta arguments are wholly valid and your "retraction" meant nothing to me. It's not the strongest of arguments (certainly not enough for my vote to be glued to FD without additional evidence as was foremostly provided by AGM's over-the-top "rebuttal" and his later behaviour)Greymarble wrote:And frankly, having played more with CES, I dun like his response to my case retraction on day 1. That was a tossed together case that was very similar to what I use to pin lynches on townies when I'm scum, me retracting it that way would be something I'd think would make town-CES likely to slam his vote into ME. Not glue it to a player for reasons that are terrible, were terrible, and will always be terrible.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Anyone who thinks this is town reasoning, should be shot.Spot wrote:Not to mention that your defense of FES is so lame, you have to resort to using the word "obvious" about 4 times. Your entire defense boils down to "he's obviously town". Just as I suspected, you have proven yourself a scumbuddy of FES. Now to find the 3rd scum.
Do you dispute that Fate hadn't been aggressive? If Greymarble had offered up a refutation of their own argument beyond "lol meta", then that might be relevant. Otherwise, their statements don't impact the validity of the argument.Balam wrote:As I understand it, Greymarble retracted the case not because they didn't believe in meta but because they made the whole thing up. Greymarble even admitted to this, which makes your continued push with it on Day 1 bad.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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The problem with your analogy is that there wasn't a Democrat option. In terms of theory, I definitely agree with Copper. The actual argument just relies on an assumption (the existence of Democrats) that while usually valid wasn't valid here. Honestly, Copper, your stance on this issue has been a little naive - I don't suddenly stop thinking about stuff like this when I'm scum.
I see Fate hasn't gotten the memo that there's more than one scum in a game.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Although I like the thought put into this, it doesn't feel to me like something signsign/quadz would do intentionally. They're not particularly devious.Balam wrote:Even my fellow head AGar was confused by my GummyBear vote, so I'll explain. There have been numerous complaints about the game state in this thread, starting with Super Vanilla Townie, and then GummyBear busts in here and goes, "This game sucks!" Way to dampen the town's morale. Bringing town down in this manner is a scum tactic that I have seen work. I'd expect, after 4 people have complained, that the next person to feel that way would know to shut up and do something about it. Slapping a vote on the big wagon and then going, "Game sucks, can we move on now?" isn't productive. Heck, even deadline lynching is more productive than post 752.
That said, Gummybear's responses to this wagon have bad. I don't know what would possess them to defend themselves based on an information argument (#760); the "flash wagon"-"running headlong" thing was pointless; "why does that apply to you calling us the only viable lynch, but not us calling FES and Daspot the only viable lynches?" relies on a switcheroo in the meaning of viable from "viable [as far as I'm concerned]" to "[objectively] viable".
Why were you expecting pressure? Why didn't you vote earlier if you thought we were scum? How exactly is a vote for us new? Why would it kickstart discussion? If anything, it strikes me as moving towards ending the Day.Gummybear wrote:Hell, when we made our vote on FES, I figured it would throw a lot of pressure on us, but a) we think they're scum, and b) it's something new and different and would hopefully kickstart discussion. And hey, lookit that, it worked.
HI BALAM.Balam wrote:HI FROGITO ERGO SUM.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Balam never even used the word "viable" as far as I can tell.Gummybear wrote:I used a consistent meaning of viable throughout my argument; if someone else was using a different meaning, then I expect them to say that we're using different meanings.
Far from fluff. I really don't see why you would expect a backlash if you were town (and your answers here aren't convincing), while it makes perfect sense for scum who are aware they're placing a L-1 vote on a townie. The point of 4/5 was that if you're trying to kickstart discussion, then you're not pushing towards the end of the day (end of day = end of discussion for fairly obvious reasons). Which were you doing?GummyBear wrote:FES wrote:Why were you expecting pressure? Why didn't you vote earlier if you thought we were scum? How exactly is a vote for us new? Why would it kickstart discussion? If anything, it strikes me as moving towards ending the Day.Hi there, obvious fluff-questions. 1: because we hadn't very active, and we were putting you at L-1. 2: Because we were voting someone we thought was scummier. 3: See 1 and 2. 4: See your question number 1. 5: Ummmm... that's because it is? I mean, deadline IS still Saturday, right?
Greymarble's meta argument for Spottown seems very situational and a bit too finicky to work in the altered context of a hydra game. I can easily imagine partnering with dana leading to more activity; the fact that people pointed out to him that activity was a problem for him as scum doesn't help either. Spot is scums.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Why are you this claim-focused?Profane Confusion wrote:I'd like to see a claim. Not really sure how FES escaped without providing one Yesterday.
Vote: Spot
UB should be ReaperCharlie, tanstalas, Fritzler, Stefunny, Kise and Kaleidoscope. Copper is anonymous and its anonymity predates this game, so I doubt they'll tell us who they are.Profane Confusion wrote:Unicorns, did you guys ever confirm your complete identities? Also, who is Copper made up of?
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In that post you seemed more concerned with me claiming than getting me lynched. This post isn't much better.
Shanba and I both felt the wagon was worthwhile due to the way they responded to the wagon and the deadline was ~7 minutes away.Profane Confusion wrote:What made you hammer Gummybear? I don't really recall you commenting much on that wagon as it was forming, and I don't see you mention anywhere that you found them scummy either.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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We were around at the time, but we weren't particularly motivated to get a proper post up.Profane Confusion wrote:
See to me this seems to indicate that you were observing the thread for awhile on Saturday but choosing not to say anything. I mean I doubt you just randomly popped up right on time just minutes before deadline for the hammer. If you're town, I don't really get why you wouldn't give input on the things that were happening while Gummy was at L-1. I could see why scum might do that though.Frogito Ergo Sum wrote:Shanba and I both felt the wagon was worthwhile due to the way they responded to the wagon and the deadline was ~7 minutes away.
Did you notice that Gummybear offered to hammer itself?Profane Confusion wrote:Not necessarily. I know the times that I've been scum, I've always have much rather had the sure mislynch the Day it's available than wait another Day for a time that I wouldn't even be guaranteed to have that same mislynch opportunity again. Towns can be fickle sometimes.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Frogito Ergo Sum Townie
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Uh, yeah? Posting 2 ascii hammers and a vote doesn't take a whole lot of mental effort.Profane Confusion wrote:
But motivated enough to hammer? lol.Frogito Ergo Sum wrote:We were around at the time, but we weren't particularly motivated to get a proper post up.
And you don't think a failure to self-hammer would've looked damning? Mescum would've stayed the hell away - either Gummybear does as promised or there's a no-lynch and a freebie mislynch the next day.Profane Confusion wrote:
Yes, and I had mentioned a couple of times that I thought Gummy's whole reaction to being at L-1 looked town. I'm assuming you're bringing this up in this case though because you're trying to say a you-scum could have just sat back and waited for the self-hammer. But like you said before the deadline was like 7 mins away and Gummy was nowhere in sight - kinda hard to self-hammer in that case, so I think what I said there still has some validity to it.Frogito Ergo Sum wrote:Did you notice that Gummybear offered to hammer itself?
UB is still a town read in our books.
One game doesn't make a pattern.Lord Fonzi wrote:As I noted, the scum games CES supplied show a pattern of attacking a partner consistently, but jumping off to lynch townies later in days.
Our guess for scum: FD/Spot/PC,Unvote, vote: FDEverything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Are you reading our posts at all?PC wrote:I swear their most recent scum list looks like they just took a bunch of names and threw them into a hat.
Consistency is a slight scum tell, just fyi.Spot wrote:he [FD] has stayed with most of his reads and has been pretty consistent.
We don't see anything particularly pro-town in Gummybear's L-1 posting. Do elaborate. Furthermore, we'd like a response to our last question on this subject: wouldn't a failure to self-hammer on their part looked damning?PC wrote:After the Gummy-hammer by FES, I felt even more confident in my read of FES because I really couldn't see how anyone with enough experience would actually hammer Gummy after the series of posts they posted at L-1.
They got lots of votes, thus they must be scum?PC wrote:The whole "I want a claim" thing was me thinking most others would easily see FES as scum too especially when they started racking up the votes from the get-go.
I don't think this assessment is even close to accurate.PC wrote:Final Destination hasn't seemed afraid of conflict (a trait that I more often associate with town than scum) and they've been taking an active role in scum-hunting.
Spot's mistake there seems genuine and I think scum would be aware of how many people were alive. Hmmm.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Profane Confusion wrote:Oh Daspot. Daspot Daspot Daspot. Having good logic does not always mean a player is town.
I agree with LF's 381 since I can't point to anything specifically pro-town that Copper has done all game either. So I'm concerned with how people are just ticking them off without really looking into them.
For example, Copper, I don't really get your vote and case. It seems to amount to "Balam has been shady around FES wagons. Therefore Balam is either scum with FES or Balam is scum while FES is town and they're waiting for the FES flip to unleash some fury." The thing that puzzles me is I always got the impression that you thought FES was scum, so I don't get why you'd now choose to vote off-wagon for this kind of reason. Break it down for me?
Yeah.Frogito Ergo Sum wrote:Are you reading our posts at all?
In response to part 1, see this post and this post both made by me.Frogito Ergo Sum wrote:We don't see anything particularly pro-town in Gummybear's L-1 posting. Do elaborate. Furthermore, we'd like a response to our last question on this subject: wouldn't a failure to self-hammer on their part looked damning?
As for the second part, I don't really know. People who genuinely thought Gummy looked like scum would have probably not listened to their excuses for not self-hammering, but I still don't think it'd be as cut and dry as them getting insta-lynched the next Day.
That's not what I was saying there, but I could see how you might have read it that way. I was saying that at D3's start, the momentum was going in your direction, and I thought whoever hadn't checked into the thread by the time I voted you would be voicing some suspicion of you too. So it seemed appropriate to me to ask for a claim.Frogito Ergo Sum wrote:
They got lots of votes, thus they must be scum?PC wrote:The whole "I want a claim" thing was me thinking most others would easily see FES as scum too especially when they started racking up the votes from the get-go.
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Uh. Damn browser.Mod, could you delete that?
I can't actually, only list mods can delete posts.
The first link just has you saying it and the second one just mentions willingness to self-hammer, which was significantly undermined as a town tell by the fact that they already had postponed it once. You yourself said you weren't sure they'd follow through.Profane Confusion wrote:
In response to part 1, see this post and this post both made by me.Frogito Ergo Sum wrote:We don't see anything particularly pro-town in Gummybear's L-1 posting. Do elaborate. Furthermore, we'd like a response to our last question on this subject: wouldn't a failure to self-hammer on their part looked damning?
Sure, but it's pretty clear that going for the no-lynch is superior for scum, no?Profane Confusion wrote:As for the second part, I don't really know. People who genuinely thought Gummy looked like scum would have probably not listened to their excuses for not self-hammering, but I still don't think it'd be as cut and dry as them getting insta-lynched the next Day.
Well, for the most part, it's nothing new. He held a similar position at the end of Day 1 and given the situation he's in, he has ample motive to change tack. FD does make one point we agree with regarding YosCayke's inconsistently suspecting FD. I don't remember any mention of FD as a suspect on Day 2 (and FD must've fallen down to at least #3 on the scum list as evidenced here) but they're right back at it Today.Profane Confusion wrote:FES, what do you think of FD's 990?
That said, any town credit FD gets for that point he immediately wastes by trying to spin Ether's "Probably Yosarian, I guess" comment into a scum tell.
P.S. re: lurking, I think FD and I have both suffered activitywise from wanting to synch up with our partners. Independent heads are more than twice as active as one combo.Last edited by TheButtonmen on Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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Quick post, because we've been negligent.
Ether's position on Yos points to YosCayketown, not to YosCaykescum.Ether wrote:Yosarian seems obvtown, or he's snowing me very well. I usually find him scummy by default, but he just looks like town to me here.
PC, you do realise the no-lynch would only lengthen the game if the scum kill got prevented at some point, right? You're really stretching to find a scum motive for the hammer here.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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I keep bringing it up because regardless of how clearly I stack up the evidence in favour of my position, you seem incapable of ceding the point and instead respond with a "but".Profane Confusion wrote:FES, I've pretty much dropped that point for the most part already. I only keep bringing it up because you keep asking about it some more. There are other reasons I find you scummy. The hammer was just icing on the cake.
Can Lord Fonzi and PC actually give their cases now? The only evidence I see arrayed against Copper are that he's avoided the spotlight (which strikes me as normal for Copper), a non-existent scumslip and the suggestion that he's trying to chain lynches by voting Balam, which strikes me as nonsensical; we do have a problem with the Balamvote but our problem lies with its uselessness; the notion that Copperscum is planning to get Balamtown lynched today and then us to win the game does not pass the sniff test.Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see.-
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