Newbie 594: (Game Over!)

[Nocmen]

/confirm

[Nocmen]

Hmm...why not start this off with a question.

Do you personally care who the ICs are?
Are you scum trying to base a meaningless wagon on the new people, and trying to avoid the ICs?

For those that don't know me, I've recently come to a playstyle where I ask a lot of questions. If I ask you questions, please ask them. I prefer questions right now greatly because it can gain much more information than random voting can.

And I ask this to everyone right now... why should I think you are town?

[Nocmen]

Well, I beleive that bastard games aside, we should be looking at a completely randomized setup. Especially for newbies, no one should be persuaded by the fact that I am an IC and that makes me equally likely to be scum as anyone else.

[Nocmen]

/confirm

I hate to say this, but it may be a bit too late because you have been replaced according to the mod, unless I read it wrong and you are the one replacing in.

I actually do care who the ICs are. The more information the better IMO, even the most benign. If a player is experienced and they make a newbtell/scumtell move I can tell if its scumtell. Second question- No.

The one concern I have with this is that do you think that if a newbie makes a "scumtell", you can automatically just assume that it was because they are new and not because they are scum? If I were a newbie and scum, what would stop me from making one of these tells and using the logic of "I'm new" as my defense, and thus making you think I am town?

I'm not saying that this always happens, as sometimes new players can and will make mistakes. What I'm saying though, is that from your post I got the idea that you will be able to automatically tell what is a newbie mistake and what is a scumtell.

[Nocmen]

EBWOP:

Also, from my own Post 13,

And I ask this to everyone right now... why should I think you are town?

[Nocmen]

It's more for the IC than the newbie. If a newb scum does make a mistake, I will consider previous posts and actions and judge it out of 10 on my notes scum to newb (i.e. 7 scum, 3 newb), and later use it if I think they are scum by different actions in my case.

Also to your question- You shouldn't think anyone is town unless they died, your cop and did not get a result, or your scum. To help you think I'm town, I'm answering all your questions.

I completely understand that this was towards the IC, and it actually is a very good way of making sure that you will be suspect if the ICs try to use newb misintelligence as a way of taking advantage of them. But I personally know that an IC would not make a mistake like that on purpose, unless it was to mislead new players, in which the other IC would then hopefully realize what was going on.

As for my question, I played it out there because I want to see the way everyone's tone and answers are, and how they vary in interpretation and choice. It's one of my favorite ways of getting a feel for the other players in the game, ask them questions. And I think that everyone should be answering questions, and I have no problem answering or having others diligently ask their own.

[Nocmen]

And I ask this to everyone right now... why should I think you are town?

No sensible answer to this question. You can have any idea about my alignment only if you are scum.

About the who are the IC's question - of course the setup is random and it doesn't give any information about alignments. But in abundance of better information But if we have to lynch at random, it might be beneficial to at least to be able to decide whether we want experienced or inexperienced people alive (although I'm not even sure which is better to town, other things equal).

There is no such thing as a random lynch. Under deadline pressures Day 1 (and only day 1 because there is information garnered during night in subsequent days), there has to be something to go off of for us to want to lynch somebody.

And I ask this to everyone right now... why should I think you are town?

Why don't you answer it yourself first?
Why should we think You're town?

With my hints toward asking questions, I was waiting for someone to actually go and ask me my own question. My response is this: I can't just sum up in a few words whether you think I am town or scum. Your job is to decide if you see my actions as town or scum, and vote me or someone else from that information. It is not just my answer to this question that will allow you to make this decision, but my actions as a whole.

[Nocmen]

There is no such thing as a random lynch. Under deadline pressures Day 1 (and only day 1 because there is information garnered during night in subsequent days), there has to be something to go off of for us to want to lynch somebody.

What? Do you suggest a no lynch if there is nothing?

No, I am not saying go with a no lynch. In any setup open like this, there are almost no times when I would push for a no lynch on day 1. I'm saying that there will be something for you to go off of, by saying someone will be lynched randomly is such a lie. There will have to be posts that sway you towards one way or another towards who you think is scum. I'm saying that we may be lynching someone who isn't as certain scum as we would like, but it is not random.

[Nocmen]

With my hints toward asking questions, I was waiting for someone to actually go and ask me my own question. My response is this: I can't just sum up in a few words whether you think I am town or scum. Your job is to decide if you see my actions as town or scum, and vote me or someone else from that information. It is not just my answer to this question that will allow you to make this decision, but my actions as a whole.

Then isn't the answer going to be the same no matter who you ask, and thus be a pointless question?

No, if people go and just copy-paste the same answers as someone else, that shows that they are incredibly lazy, or something may be up. I'm not going to push for someone's lynch based on just my question alone, but as I said before:

As for my question, I played it out there because I want to see the way everyone's tone and answers are, and how they vary in interpretation and choice.

[Nocmen]

You know, three days is no where near enough time to get a proper lurking strategy going. Many times people will have a hard week, or they will be away for two days, as I just was, and thus can not post for that time. A week or so is pushing it, but not a few days.

Though split, you say you have no suspicions yet. Do you have anything that has been said or implied in posts that gives you any opinion of a player? Doesn't have to be scummy or townie, but like "hmm, _____ is annoying", "Nocmen asks too many questions", etc.

[Nocmen]

Ok, well do you think I am scum and are certain of it to place a vote and lynch me right now? Or are you just trying to get me to talk more, slip up, and/or see how I respond? I hope its the latter, because a lynch on page 2/3 before there is much discussion is, well, stupid if your town.

I admit, that would be a pretty quick lynch.

Though split, you say you have no suspicions yet. Do you have anything that has been said or implied in posts that gives you any opinion of a player? Doesn't have to be scummy or townie, but like "hmm, _____ is annoying", "Nocmen asks too many questions", etc.

Nothing strongly convinces me yet...

It doesn't need to be something strong. Have you gotten ZERO opinions of the other players in the game so far?

Here's what I have gotten, which is being on the short list of things as well:

"Bat has a few posts about knowing who the ICs are"
"Atticus gives a damn about spellcheck"
"Rickenon is good at getting with the drift of my questions"
"Silence will allow a completely random list"
"zf knows the purpose of what I was doing"
"Bat and I have different definitions of lurking"
"zf's vote...I can see it being both ways"
"split seems very adamant towards posting opinons of others"

[Nocmen]

With my hints toward asking questions, I was waiting for someone to actually go and ask me my own question. My response is this: I can't just sum up in a few words whether you think I am town or scum. Your job is to decide if you see my actions as town or scum, and vote me or someone else from that information. It is not just my answer to this question that will allow you to make this decision, but my actions as a whole.

Nocmen, I don't believe that that answers the question. You didn't say anything incriminating about yourself. You just told us how to play the game. Truly, you've only given us a really bad strategy of how to find scum. And who wants to give the townspeople a bad strategy? Scum.

No, it's not really a bad strategy. You've only given us the core of the game.

So. When will you answer this question that has been posed by yourself and by Rickeon? Or will you answer it at all? I, personally, could care less about your actions concerning this matter. It doesn't say anything about you.

I did not ask the question as a means of using that as the tell-all way to fidn the scum. I asked the question as just a way to judge how people's tones and posting style are when asked a question that is somewhat difficult to answer.

As for incriminating myself...what kind of scum would go out there and say that they are scum and give evidence towards that.

I purposely allowed the question to be asked to me so that everyone else could compare my answer with the others. I also notice that you haven't answered the question, while you are pushing heavily saying my answer isn't good enough in your post.

I also love later on that you suggest I may start bitching about stuff, when you really have no idea who I am or if I just want to help people out here. Confusion over stuff like pure randomization of rules and trying to express my opinions of how it almost always should be clear is something that should be done in a newbie game. All I have seen from your posts that is helpful is complain about spell check and the proper place to put the apostraphe when referring to you in the possesive form.

[Nocmen]

Please, I'm Atticus. So when something belongs to me, it'd be Atticus's. I am not a number of Atticu. But more importantly, what do you want me to explain? Battousai explains everything in that post. I haven't contributed much. I don't usually, but no, I haven't. As for the whole IC-noob-scum-thing: yes, I should know, and I do know that most mods fully randomise roles. But I don't know anything about bird1111. I expressed instead what I thought Battousai's opinions (not mine) might be, because Nocmen looked like he might start bitching about it.

Atticus' = Atticus's

Battousai was FoSing you in part for the randomising thing, I only wanted to say that it did indeed seem unusual, that I could think of a reason why you might not have understood that, but it wasn't my place to explain your posts for you. Are you saying you were conscious all along that it's standard practice to randomise roles?

It is standard practice to randomize roles. I'm not sure what you are getting at, but all I see is that you made a blur between explaining for someone and telling your opnion of a post.

[Nocmen]

I did not ask the question as a means of using that as the tell-all way to find the scum. I asked the question as just a way to judge how people's tones and posting style are when asked a question that is somewhat difficult to answer.

As for incriminating myself...what kind of scum would go out there and say that they are scum and give evidence towards that.

I purposely allowed the question to be asked to me so that everyone else could compare my answer with the others. I also notice that you haven't answered the question, while you are pushing heavily saying my answer isn't good enough in your post.

I also love later on that you suggest I may start bitching about stuff, when you really have no idea who I am or if I just want to help people out here. Confusion over stuff like pure randomization of rules and trying to express my opinions of how it almost always should be clear is something that should be done in a newbie game. All I have seen from your posts that is helpful is complain about spell check and the proper place to put the apostrophe when referring to you in the possessive form.

I didn't expect you to use a simple question for tripping up newbies as a way to find scum, Nocmen. I expected you to use whatever information you could get to find scum.

And I didn't expect you to say that you were scum. Maybe I misused the word incriminating. What I mean is that you didn't say anything about yourself when you answered Rickeon's question. It's like you copied something out of the wiki.

And unfortunately, you

failed

to answer the question, because you have not told anyone why we should think you are town. It's not that your answer isn't good enough. It's that you didn't answer.

Anyone can start bitching about anything, Nocmen. Your tone towards Battousai when you question him wanting to know the ICs seemed like a lead in to a possible bitchin'. Whether I know things about you or not doesn't mean I can't make assumptions about you.

Yeah, speaking of Spellcheck. I did indeed fix your spelling errors.

Maybe I have "failed" to answer my question thouroughly, but the truth is that there really is no perfect way at answering that question. I do not control your mind, I do not decide who you think is scum or not (crazed, non newbie roles aside). You may say that my answer is inadequate, but it is still much more of an attempt at answering than you have given.

A look at the "answers" other people have given:

Also to your question- You shouldn't think anyone is town unless they died, your cop and did not get a result, or your scum. To help you think I'm town, I'm answering all your questions.

I don't see anything personal about him or his attitude towards the game there. The closest thing is that he wants to answer all of my questions.

No sensible answer to this question. You can have any idea about my alignment only if you are scum.

This is pretty much with the same arm of a response than what I have given.

Rickenon's reply was just asking me more questions about it, but he hasn't given a response either than saying "Won't all the answers be the same?". The answers probably will all be in the same generalized reply. However, as I said, you can get so much information about people if you get several to all respond to a same challenge with their different opinions.

But see, while you are going after me saying that my answer isn't good enough, I don't feel that anyone else has answered something in the way you wanted me to answer my question as well. In fact, several people have not even attempted at answering the question, including

you

.

The purpose of the question is not to get people to slip up, its to get an idea of the players tones and attitudes, as well as starting discussion, ignoring a drawn out random stage.

[Nocmen]

Dang it, I hate when I miss a page.....

Zu: I know I'm not in any danger of being lynched, I am overdefensive at times, but I seriously didn't see a vote was warranted for my previous FOS of Atticus. A FOS, sure.

You know, thats pretty overdefensive as well as bit. One vote is nothing to be afraid of early on. Why? Because lets say you were to be lynched right away, your death wouldn't be in vain, because the only people that would really jump onto the lynch right away would be scum. That's even harder now than other newbie games because there are 9 players not 7 players. Same amount of scum, but need one more player to lynch.

Calling this first vote unwarranted, when zf had reason to suspect you already, does seem like an overreaction.

[Nocmen]

Vote : Zu_faul

He's made a total of four posts, two of which are attacking Bat, and two which do nothing but repeat what Nocmen says.
That, and my gut feeling, warrents a vote from me. ^^

As pointed out, you have not made many other posts either. If you really want to call someone out for not posting, at least post some information quite a lot.

If anything, this post screams out that you just want to go and attack the weakest link.

[Nocmen]

If anything, this post screams out that you just want to go and attack the weakest link.

Why should one not want to attack the weakest link?

There is a difference between a weak player and a scummy player. To me, the weakest link is the person who looks the most open to attack, for bs reasons.

[Nocmen]

Thanks for the defense of Zu_Faul, Bat, Nocmen, and Split.

Oh, and being the third person Split, isn't doubleposting a bit redundant, especially when you have nothing new to add? =P

Unvote

I wasn't defending zu_faul at all, I was just saying that your logic of the vote was pretty much unwarranted.

[Nocmen]

Brief Player by Player in order to maybe get more discussion going because its sort of died out a bit.

Rickeon - All he has done is question my question which I posed to all of the town. Only 3 posts, not enough to sway me at all

silence - I don't like the way that he feels the weakest person is always scum, and that we should attack them. Also towards the inactive half of players.

BlackWolf - Confirmed, votes zf for not posting much, and then unvotes. Also criticizes split, when he is reiterating what Atticus said the post before his.

Fos: BlackWolf

gorillaman - Starts, says Atticus is a bit overdefensive, and then gets into some talk about whether roles are randomized or not. However, not enough as well to really make me suspect him yet.

split - I don't like the fact at all that he is only repeating what is said, as well as saying there is nothing that makes him suspicious at all, until he says Batt may be a little over-defensive. And then voting for being a little overdefensive too?

Fos: split9102

, this may be removed however, as his actions do remind me of my early actions playing mafia.

Battousai - Calls Atticus out for lurking, being only a couple days into the game. His defense and criticism of calling it something trying to make him slip up seems a bit overdefensive, but to me this just seems like his play style. First person I'm undecided on that has actually posted more than 3-4 times.

zu faul - First person to call out Battousai on possibly being overdefensive, and the well placed vote in order to see his reaction seems a bit like a good play. Is that from experience? I don't know.

Atticus - While we took opposing sides on the argument over whether my question can really be a good tool to base people's playstyles on, while saying I didn't answer it, when he hadn't either. But I do know that he is definitely trying to look into things, which is somewhat of a plus for now.

Order of people from least scummy to most so far:
zu_faul
Rickenon
silence
Atticus
Battousai
gorillaman
split
BlackWolf

Also, why not see if we can get another start from a

Vote: BlackWolf

[Nocmen]

Actually, the double post was a glitch in the forum.

It wasn't that that was being referred to, but the fact that you said what me and Battousai had said just a few posts up.

Oh, I never did answer that question, did I? I guess that makes me somewhat of a hypocrite, but not really.

You should think I am town if you look at my past games. I am usually rather indecisive, lurky, and generally unhelpful. Most of the time regardless of my role (One game, however, I was a dayvig and became extremely paranoid of crappy player Battle Mage, and shot a few other people too). So that shouldn't really help you in deciding if I am town, but please don't call me scum just based on the reasons stated above. That's who I is.

It's too late to bother with the question anymore, it was just a nice way of trying to get an opinion on the posting style of new players. I put you in the middle, not having anything to suspect you on, and somewhat likened by the fact you seem to be actually analyzing posts and searching for scum. Why are you at the middle then? Because it seems that your playstyle is the same whether you are town or scum, and the possibility that you are a good scum player is out there.

[Nocmen]

gorillaman ... says Atticus is a bit overdefensive, and then gets into some talk about whether roles are randomized or not.

You've misread my posts - neither of those statements are correct.

Overdefensive:

That was a bit more defensive than necessary. Second paragraph's pretty convincing; I can think of an explanation but obviously that's Atticus' job to give.

Randomizing roles:

Battousai was FoSing you in part for the randomising thing, I only wanted to say that it did indeed seem unusual, that I could think of a reason why you might not have understood that, but it wasn't my place to explain your posts for you. Are you saying you were conscious all along that it's standard practice to randomise roles?

So, mind explaining what you mean by neither of my statements are correct?

[Nocmen]

I noted that Battousai was being defensive, not Atticus, for your first statement, and I was talking about Batt's FoS and Atticus' understanding of the rules for the second, not whether the roles were randomised.

Now I'm calling you overdefensive - why is your first reaction to argue with me, rather than reading the posts again to see where you'd gone wrong?

For some reason, I definitely read the wrong post before I went and said that. It was my confusion with the time stamps and looking at each players posts player-by-player.

The second though can be hard to decipher, I can see the meaning you were trying to get, but not until now. Over the first few reads it just seems like you are asking if he should expect the roles to be random.

[Nocmen]

Rickenon's last post was a week ago, and he has 3 posts total, two of which were complaing about how my question was worthless.

silence...I don't know. He only has 4 posts total, one of which was a confirm, so it's hard to tell. And his last post left a bad taste on me.

[Nocmen]

Eh, just wanted to see reactions.

If you want to see my reaction, why don't you wait for me to show up before unvoting?

Has Rickenon already posted in this game? I don't think so.

I get protown vibes off of silence.
gorillaman seems rather scummy, though I didn't get what Nocmen meant with "overdefensive" in that one post. gorillaman was defending someone else. Nocmen should have answered the question proposed by gorillaman.

I've posted. I've been following the game fairly closely, I just haven't seen anything I could say that's actually worth saying.

I suppose I should force myself to talk more, but nothing so far seems overly notable..

Like I've already said once in this game(not to you), there has to be something you can at least comment on. Anything, doesn't need to be "that makes _____ look scummy".

[Nocmen]

unvote, Vote: Rickenon

Now you have something to comment on.

Who does?
There's no one named Rickenon in this game.

You know what he meant.

There is a difference between a weak player and a scummy player. To me, the weakest link is the person who looks the most open to attack, for bs reasons.

Should have answered this earlier. Misunderstanding/different use of words on my part, I would have defined weak rather as 'in greatest danger to get lynched' - person open to attack only for bs reasons isn't really too weak as those reasons won't get him killed. But with the definition you gave - of course we want to kill the scummiest rather than the 'weakest' player.

That still confuses me. If you want to attack the person who is in greatest danger of getting lynched, you have to beleive the arguments put forth towards why they should be lynched. If not, then it's just wagoning.

[Nocmen]

Unvote, Vote Rickeon

Well, I really don't see what I could defend. I haven't done anything that could go either way yet this game.

You do have something you defend. You seem like you are unwilling to criticize anyone or call anyone out for their actions. You just want to sit back and let what happens happens, and my feeling is that you will use that and jump on a wagon later.

[Nocmen]

That, and the other thing is that he only seemed to come out when he were called out, aka actively lurking.

[Nocmen]

Unvote, Vote: Rickeon

[Nocmen]

Unvote

My vote was for pressure. Now that he has posted about something I can remove it. For now.

[Nocmen]

I think there is a lack of original content overall.

Split and Rickeon, can you comment more? Rickeon has commented about one thing, but there are much more things to comment on. Split has been pretty silent overall.

[Nocmen]

Responding to prod.

I find split and BlackWolf's lurking very suspicious.

I'm gonna assume you were joking with that statement...since I've actually been busy the last couple days.

He chose to attack you, without bringing any reasonable reason.

After a few people pressured him to post

anything

repeatedly, does it really count as opportunistic?

There is many things he could at least comment on. Hell, I wouldn't have mind even if he went and completely overanalyzed something small, assuming that it meant that he was giving off his own stuff.

Still want split/rickeon to comment more, I'm going to save my vote unvoted until they get a response, unless I see that pressure vote is needed to get information out.

[Nocmen]

And Bat, your case on me at the moment is:
1) Made contradictory post, while fully aware that it was laughably ironic coming from me
2) Gave reason/excuse for previous post
3) Unvote when people react, which shows a want to appease the town
Am I right?
Cause I just wanted to clarify with you first.

This is coming from your POV, so I have to gather the what I can from my own.

1)You made a contradictory vote
2) Saw people reacting negatively, gave an excuse
3) Said you got reactions and unvoted. The person who you voted for never reacted, and I don't see what kind of reactions you would have expected to get in the first place from the other players.
3b) I gather you unvoted to appease the town

I was waiting for Bat to respond before commenting on this, as I wanted him to actually give unique information and not risk him using my thoughts.

BlackWolf, when did you decide that this was trying to get a reaction? Do you have any proof of a possible hint towards this? Many times breadcrumbs are made towards a pressure/gambit vote, and I would like to see if you have any. Also, why should the rest of us town not vote you for the same reasons that you placed your vote?

[Nocmen]

Yes, it would be incriminating. But I still wanted to hear his own other reasons for attacking BlackWolf. Right now I see BlackWolf as somewhat scummy, but not warranting a vote for now.

[Nocmen]

1)You made a contradictory vote
2) Saw people reacting negatively, gave an excuse

BlackWolf, when did you decide that this was trying to get a reaction? Do you have any proof of a possible hint towards this?

I think the best proof of it being a vote for a reaction is when I placed it. Was there any other vote on zu_Faul? No. Was there any chance of

anybody

else voting for zu_Faul? Nope. So, what else could I have been trying to do with that vote?

So wait...every first vote placed on someone is always to get a reaction out of people? Not every time, there are many times where I am sure that the person wants to vote to lynch the other person. I think votes are a very crude way of doing this, as it will more times than not evoke suspicion.

3) Said you got reactions and unvoted. The person who you voted for never reacted, and I don't see what kind of reactions you would have expected to get in the first place from the other players.
3b) I gather you unvoted to appease the town

I

was

looking for something in zu_Faul's reply, or baring that, some sort of defensive post from somebody else, which would have shown a connection between the two. As it was, I got replies from three other people, before I unvoted, as you pointed out. I unvoted at that point because I felt it was useless to try and get anything more from that pressure vote, since there was no need for zu_Faul to post a defence.

I very much enjoy to hear the person I attack thoughts before I actually decide whether I should keep my vote on them or unvote. As mentioned before, you can get information from whether they actually show their own unique thoughts or try to get them off someone else. I personally try to use a bit of both, as sometimes someone will say something much more elegantly than I could actually word it. But if people say all of my thoughts...I must not have been thinking much.

[Nocmen]

Would it be fair to say that if BlackWolf's town he was the easy target for scum to attack those last couple of pages?

Actually, split, zu_faul, and/or rickeon would be the easiest to attack for them not posting much lately. The ones who can't defend themselves make easier targets, IMHO.

And if you are directing that quote to my posts and possibly Nocmen's, then perhaps you can give us someone else to "attack." Let's see, there's the lurkers and then there's BW.

So you are saying that you want to attack people, and constantly have someone to do that to. What do you mean by "attack", theres a difference between attacking and trying to show someone is scum.

[Nocmen]

Is that true? Hmm...very much so.

Lets take the risk.

Vote: Rickeon

[Nocmen]

Just posting to point out that L-1, so I will NOT be voting for him.
And please, nobody else vote before he gets on.

Thank you for pointing out what the action the scum need to take here.

[Nocmen]

I don't think we should be quiet, and really I have no problem what pace we go on, as long as we put thought into our actions as well as our votes. I don't like having different styles though for being a power role or not, as that really can hurt the town by saying things and making such things evident in this game.

[Nocmen]

Well, I have no problem with him being a l-1. I want to hear what he says when he is really under the pressure of a hammer. If someone is to lynch him now, they better have damn good reasons for it.

[Nocmen]

If the scum is stupid enough to hammer now, let 'em.
It'll only mean we know who at least one of the scum are.

Well, if you act differently as cop and town, it makes it easier for scum to NK you then doesn't it? Its the same for acting differently as town and as scum.

Well, that's only if they know your meta-game.
I think it'd be perfectly normal for, say, a Doc to not act as aggresively as usual, to draw less attention to himself, or a Cop for the same reason.

But eliminating one of the scum is still a very nice thing to know, that's half of our victory condition.

[Nocmen]

Well, the longer this goes on, the less chance of actually being able to tell if someone hammers him because he was scummy or if he is being hammered because someone wants to move the game on and get out of Day 1.

The "risk" I took in 155 was seeing if someone would be anxious to go and hammer him when I put him and L-1. Now it's past that chance of being feasible, so

unvote[/b[

[Nocmen]

Unvote

. Stupid tags.

[Nocmen]

That is actually really unreliable.
It's completely possible he acts differently as cop then as town, now isn't it?

Are my accusations unreliable as well?

@Nocmen: Didn't you see my last post? I thought it was worth at least a comment from you.

I understood what you said completely. My whole vote was somewhat of a risk, hence the "Let's take a risk". I was sort of hoping someone would get really anxious to go and hammer and we would be able to have one of the scum guaranteed for tomorrow. I was going to give it 5 days exactly, as that's usually my period for inactivity or something. By the time that rolled around, I retracted my vote because it would be challenging to distinguish a vote because he was inactive and a vote because someone wanted to hammer when they got the chance.

[Nocmen]

The risk was that it could possibly go on for too long, giving anyone who hammered a semivalid defense as to why they did so, and the fact that we would be losing someone who very well could be town. The main thing of his suspicious was that he was inactive and hadn't said much. I unvoted him because anyone could have hammered and just said "I wanted to get this game moving a bit so I got rid of dead weight" which is in a game like this a decent reason. There was nothing much else to gain from someone hammering him at that time.

As for my comment about his inactivity, I'm not always fully keeping track of stuff. Early on I only said that because I went through the thread once, and then went through everyone's posts induvidually when I made that post. Having a low number of posts when I did that, that's how I knew he was not posting much at that time. Later on, I had been checking up on this game but not as much as other games, and I didn't realize how long it had been since Rickeon actually posted until someone pointed it out and I looked at it.

[Nocmen]

Mr Blonde, but if you look at the majority of Day 1 lynches, they are still on townies. I would rather take out a townie who is dead weight and not contributing than another townie who is actually contributing, but has a little scumminess. Especially with F11, a townie death Day 1 doesn't put us in LyLo like it did with C9. If someone is hurting the town in general, like a lurker not contributing anything, this could hurt us a lot.

Maybe my remark was made up, but that is not anything to do with my alignment, sometimes you can't really keep track of everything.

But I do find your conclusions on the game a bit confusing. You say that zf could be trying to draw suspicion away from Atticus, as well at Battousai having a possible connection with Atticus (Though I find this not much more than him guessing at what Atticus's posts meant, as 131 is his reasons for voting Rickeon).

What really confuses me though is that zf goes and foses us on the wagon in post 174...when he was also voting on the wagon. ZF, care to comment?

[Nocmen]

*sigh* My point is very simple. If you felt this description: "you have not been doing any scumhunting untill this point in the game, and only post suspicions when prompted to." applied to another person in the game, wouldn't you be voting for them? I sure as hell would. But BlackWolf is only interested in something so far as he can use it to protect himself. That is scummy. Also, see my post on tu quoque.

Tu quoque would involve me dismissing the hypocrisy.

As a logical fallacy, it works like this (stolen from wikipedia):

A makes criticism P
A is guilty of P
Therefore, P is dismissed.

I'm not dismissing P, I'm attacking A for being inconsistent. As a correct logical argument, it works like this:

A makes criticism of P for Q.
A is guilty of Q.
A's position is suspicious.

I agree with this completely. If you are to accuse someone along those lines, you must make sure you are not guilty of them yourself. Case in point, the whole way BlackWolf called certain people inactive earlier on this game.

[Nocmen]

Battousai has made 3 votes total in this game, and 3 FoSes. And look at how many FoSes others have given in this game...its more than Battousai. If anything, I commend FoSes over votes, but only to a point. The way Battousai is using the FoSes are fine, but a few more and it looks like a person is trying to set up bait to try and get anyone else in trouble for it.

Speaking of that...

Unvote, Vote: Zu_Faul

[Nocmen]

A number of things. One of which it seems to me like he jumps around and pops up only when it is convenient for him to do so, and when something about him is mentioned. A lot of his posts have been trying to get other people to say things, which is fine for a newbie game, but when its been said so many times by all of us, I think he may be trying to get someone to slip up. He's accused/voted people for the reasons of not scumhunting and "trying to tell our partner something". But what has he done? The most scum hunting I have seen from him was his vote on gorillaman.

[Nocmen]

weilawei, your system seems kind of strange if you include unvotes in there. What purpose would an unvote have in scumhunting?

I don't think his system is all based on trying to find people who are scum hunting. If a person goes and jumps on and off a wagon quickly, that could be a scumtell.

[Nocmen]

Better post later/tomorrow. I'm living hell week with classes and work.

[Nocmen]

I know this will probably sound a bit hypocritical, but I don't think we should base a lynch just off not scumhunting. A lot of people have...mis understandings of what scumhunting really is when they are a new player, I know for one I didn't scumhunt much in my first few newbie games.

[Nocmen]

Scumhunting to me is actively going and looking into a persons actions and finding evidence that looks scummy. Reiterating what others say, is not.

[Nocmen]

1. He has made quite a few accusations towards people, while he could easily be accused of the same things.
2. He seems to be actively lurking and only posting when people call out to him or give him a reason to talk
3. His way of scumhunting seems to be just getting people to talk.

[Nocmen]

1. He has made quite a few accusations towards people, while he could easily be accused of the same things.

Like for example...

3. His way of scumhunting seems to be just getting people to talk.

Because it is just better to lynch them without allowing them to say anything, riiiiiiiight

Theres a difference between attacking someone and entrapment. I think you are much more entrapment, trying to take advantage of newbies in order to make them say statements to use.

[Nocmen]

The one thing that concerns me about BlackWolf is that he seems to be a lot more organized in his defenses rather than his scumhunting.

Unvote, Vote:BlackWolf

. ZF could go both ways, I can see his posts being as logical and trying to figure out logic behind the actions. Though BlackWolf's defensiveness combined with zf's attack on Mr. Blonde for attacking BlackWolf...

[Nocmen]

I know this means that BlackWolf could be lynched. I just looked through carefully and I see his actions as either trying to cover something up or just not wanting to cast suspicion on people.

The most striking resemblance is it to my beginner scum play.

[Nocmen]

(I think there's miscount: nocmen is voting BlackWolf...)

Yea...and if not,

Unvote, Vote: Blackwolf

to make sure.

[Nocmen]

Silence's posts leave a somewhat bad taste with me afterwards, to the point where it is somewhat threatening. I don't like that he has gone under the radar either. I would like it if he is much more active day 2 than he was today. But he does live up to his name.

[Nocmen]

weilawei - Being inactive all over is not an excuse for being inactive.

As for BlackWolf being defensive, there is a point where you must go and still try to attack some people, look into them being scum and point that out. I don't like the way he is not doing that. My logic recently playing mafia is that one of the best defenses is to try and point out people that have done things just like you have.

[Nocmen]

I'm going to look through the thread for all associations with BlackWolf, and post my opinion. However, I am not going to base my whole reasons for finding someone scummy off those actions in general.

[Nocmen]

Well, we don't know if a cop actually exists or not. But if he does, remember you should not claim unless you have a guilty result.

[Nocmen]

While it is good to go and help out the cop, ...oh I see what you did there.

[Nocmen]

If I say what I'm really thinking it will only hurt the town.

[Nocmen]

Well, I may have some clues as to if we have these roles or not. I have reason to beleive there is a Cop and Doc in here. If people make sure not to lynch either a cop or doc today, we can use that to have one shot to have the cop get a guilty tonight. Which I'm not sure if I like, him having a 1 in 5 chance of actually getting the scum with a guilty result. But on the other hand, I feel like I have a way to test a theory, which would either confirm someone as town or make me highly suspect them.

I think the cop, and the cop only, should come out now. Keep the scum guessing about the Doc. The doc knows who the cop is, and protect him. The main problem that can happen, though, is if the doc is lynched today.

[Nocmen]

Also,

Vote: weilawei

[Nocmen]

Ok, this whole cop thing is dragging on and we only have a 50/50 chance of a cop even being in the game. I think we should start scumhunting today, especially those who have not scumhunted at all D2.

Like I said Weilawei is the scummiest person left in the game. Post 212, he defended BW recent posts and pointed out he's for helping scum. Then when gorillaman continues his attacks on BW, weilawei jumps in on gorillaman and muddies the water with the tu quoque which effectively got gorillaman's attention away from BW.

Which is one of the main reasons I am voting for him as well. I did not like his way that seemed a lot like defending BW.

[Nocmen]

Mind telling us why you don't think his actions would match up with being a partner?

[Nocmen]

the main problem I have with weilawei is that his actions seem like an all over attack, not focusing on anyone, and just sort of jumping on someone when he sees a vulnerability.

[Nocmen]

Hmm...I didn't realize it had been so long since I last posted. Looking towards weil and Batt...

weilawei: I never really understood his vote on gorillaman ...and I still don't. Then he goes onto this whole debate over whether it is a logical fallacy or not, and I see that as primarily just a means of getting a better reason for his vote. I don't like how he also seems to use the counter and not his own work to look for scumminess. I see his attack on Batt completely bs, at least for the initial fos for the numbers. He then goes more in depth to say that Batt is retalitory, but the only thing I really saw from the posts was Batt putting an FoS on ZF after ZF FoS'd him. Then afterwards...he goes and jumps on the BlackWolf wagon...Then goes back to a paired Batt/BlackWolf scum group, and votes Batt again. Very ironic considering he first attacked Batt for having a large amount of voting/FoSing.

Batt: First thing really with the game to look at is him FoSing Atticus for lurking...which is weird because at that time there were quite a few people lurking/inactive in this game...and he goes after him. Then attacks BlackWolf for being hypocritical. The key point with this vote is that he says "holding my vote until I had something else to add on" as well as he doesn't really go after BW until others point it out. Then has a brief questioning of Rickenon, and votes him. After there is already a pair of votes on him, of course. then when it seems the wagon may not work, goes back to BW. Now he votes weilawei...

With only one scum left, and 7 alive...I'm pretty sure it comes down to one of these two as the final scum. I have the opportunity to go and hammer Batt right now...which 1. may win the game for us immediately. 2. allow us to look much more in depth and possibly lynch weilawei tomorrow and 3. Give any possible cop another chance to get a guilty.

I see it as worth it...his only real attack on BW seems like he wasn't using his own information, and he wanted to try to say he was after his scum buddy to makehimself look better.

Unvote, Vote: Battousai

[Nocmen]

I have reason to assume that right now, we do not have a cop or doc in this game. Though, if someone has a guilty result, I suggest that now is the time to claim.

[Nocmen]

Sorry about not posting, I had graduation last night distracting me for most of yesterday. As for why I don't think there is a cop/doc, gorillaman was my biggest candidate for who the doc would be, which explains a few of my posts from last night talking about that.

Really I don't know who my candidates for scum will be, but I will continue with the leads where we were at yesterday.

[Nocmen]

A look at all 4 of the remaining players:

Atticus - He seems to be using a bit more deeper thinking into posts in order to cast suspicions, which sometimes seem as a bit scummy because upon first look it is as if he is going in really deep, but many times it helps me a bit. Leaning towards town.

Zu_faul - I suspected him for all of his FoSes earlier in the game, but he has been better since then, but that may have been becuase I called him out on it for his actions? I don't know...neutral for me.

silence - He's been actively lurking it seems, not really doing as much as I would like, but then again I haven't been the most active player either.

weilawei - He has been hard to get a read on. I see him as some good arguments, but a lot of what he argues is just numbers...

I'm leading towards suspecting weilawei and silence, but I'm not sure about trusting the IC's just with that. I really dont know, tomorrow I will look more into voting patterns and associations with the dead.

[Nocmen]

Sorry for not doing what i wanted to today, I was at grad parties all day and now I'm just getting back at 330am.

[Nocmen]

I really think upon a reread that we can trust ZF here, just from the way BW attacked him. I think that really was a newbie attack, and that changes my gut to trust what ZF has said now.

But this post:

Vote : silence

If it approaches deadline, then I'll probably switch to Weilawei, second candidate for scum.

Makes me really uneasy and I think he was trying to avoid voting his scum buddy.

[Nocmen]

Weilawei. I'm thinking that BW was being very, very cautious about attacking his buddy, and didn't want to when he made that post.

[Nocmen]

My list:

1. Game and Watch Forever
2. silence
3. zu_faul
4. Atticus

[Nocmen]

As for why I voted so quickly Day 2... I feel that a lot of my post with the hammer explained it, but I suppose I can add more. It seemed that at that point, we had him cornered, and it was the perfect opportunity to take out someone who I thought was scum. If he wasn't scum, it wouldn't be game over right away. The only thing we had to lose was him as a townie, while if I waited we may not have had as good an opportunity to lynch and see if he really was town.

As for gorillaman, he definitely cleared himself up day 2, he seemed pretty townie in my eyes. Also, even though this may hurt me saying it, he was my prime candidate for who would be a Doc in this game.

[Nocmen]

One of the biggest things I don't understand from silence:

The main problem that can happen, though, is if the doc is lynched today.

Maybe the cop should come out only after we have agreed who to lynch, and that person has not claimed doc.

It just makes me uneasy. The problem with the idea though is that the doc would still be lynched, and I really think he wanted to have a clear target as who would be the Cop in this case.

[Nocmen]

So, if we look at the list all 5 of us have:

ZF:

1. Atticus
2. Game and Watch / Weilawei
3. Nocmen
4. Silence

Me:

1. Game and Watch Forever
2. silence
3. zu_faul
4. Atticus

GnWF:

So if you want my list:
1. Silence
2. Nocmen
3. zu_Faul
4. Atticus

silence:

1. Nocmen
2. zu_Faul
3. Atticus
4. Game and Watch Forever

Atticus:

GNFW
silence
zuFaul
Nocmen

4 Different people are beleived to be the most scummy. The only one that is a repeat is GnWF, which is top suspected by me and Atticus. The only one not suspected in spot one is ZF.

A few other things:
Atticus is pretty low on everyone's list, except for ZF's.
Me and Silence are all over the place in our rankings.
GnWF is near the top, beside's silence's list.

However, we can not really look at the posts and try to figure out associations, as we know that there isn't actually any any associations between the living to be made, because there can only be 1 scum still alive.

[Nocmen]

Well, if you go along with that, we have me and GNWF as the top two , each with being found most suspicious by two people. Take that as you will.

[Nocmen]

Sorry about that, got my prod, it's been a very very hectic week. I'll get a better post in tomorrow, I'm out of town today fro the holiday.

[Nocmen]

Well from what it looks like, GnWF has gone inactive on this site, as from another game and now the fact that he has not picked up his prod yet.

I think if we can boost discussion quickly, we need not worry about forcing a quicklynch at this point.

[Nocmen]

Well, I was sort of possibly considering a lynch on GNWF because of his inactivity as well, but I'm not sure if he is lurking because he is scum, or because all of his people actally left this site.

[Nocmen]

The people who have had the same role as him, aka him, weilawei, and split.

[Nocmen]

I don't think a deadline is the right thing to do in this situation, but I am unsure whetehr it is best to go and lynch GNWF and hope that was right or we can get things right tomorrow, or if we should look into the other options.

[Nocmen]

Really, the only reason why I am considering going for GNWF is that there seems to be no better options. I don't want to mess up at put us in LyLo though. But it would kick up activity, prevent a mod from finding another replacement, and it seems to be me like the scummiest, albeit a small margin.

[Nocmen]

We can always garner information regarding the possible alignments of people as how they respond to a wagon and such.

Therefore, I propose trying

Vote: Game and Watch Forever