Mushroom Kingdom Mafia (Game over!)

[armlx]

Hmm, odd, the message wasn't showing up in my inbox despite the timestamp on it being from early this morning.

/confirm.

[armlx]

Vote farside

'

Pre-empting my thinking she is scum actually every game I play with her.

There's actually a decent reason (for page 1) to believe Alabaska is town right now, btw.

[armlx]

It's not 100% assured, but usually mafia are allowed to talk during day start confirm phases (ie. every newbie game atm). I would think that Alabaska as scum would have at least noticed if his inbox started filling with messages from random people.

[armlx]

Vote farside

'

Pre-empting my thinking she is scum actually every game I play with her.

There's actually a decent reason (for page 1) to believe Alabaska is town right now, btw.

I get the first part, but where from left field did you get this.

vote: Armix

for trying to bring up a game still on going and causing confusion.

Most of said games with you are ongoing, however, Weather Mafia was definitely the start of it.

[armlx]

6) You may not discuss this game outside the topic, unless your role says you can, and if you can, you may only do so during the night.

Ok, strike that, reverse it. There is in fact nothing that would suggest Alabaska is any alignment at this point.

Mod edit:
Visible votecount:
Surye (1): Celebloki
Alabaska J (1): populartajo
populartajo (1): Rogue Shenanigans
gimbo (1): Alabaska J
Mr. Incrediball (1): Riceballtail
farside22 (1): armlx
armlx (1): farside22

Not voting (17): iamausername, Xtoxm, Phoebus, sideney, somestrangeflea, Surye, killa seven, mr. incrediball, TheSweatpantsNinja, MafiaSSK, alvinz95, FaerieLord, Gimbo, Cream147, DragonsofSummer, Pepsidude, Dead Rikimaru

With 24 alive it takes 13 real votes to lynch.

[armlx]

6) You may not discuss this game outside the topic, unless your role says you can, and if you can, you may only do so during the night.

Ok, strike that, reverse it. There is in fact nothing that would suggest Alabaska is any alignment at this point.

But yet you said this:

There's actually a decent reason (for page 1) to believe Alabaska is town right now, btw.

Yeah, I did not see said rule. I am used to instead mafia being able to talk during confirms on a day start.

[armlx]

You are correct in your thoughts Armix

All roles are out. Please confirm in thread. Players who can talk during the night are allowed to talk now until Day 1 starts.

Oh, so I was right. Strike my striking and reversing and reverse it.

[armlx]

Gimbo, you are not being helpful.

TSN, you are basically attacking a Rosso-esque player for behaving in that manner. Think about it.

[armlx]

Gimbo is an alt.

Irrel. If he is someone's alt, their alt can have a meta of acting dumb.

[armlx]

But then gimbo responded, and sometimes I can't help but feed trolls.

I would have said that phrase, but doing so does in fact feed the trolls.

[armlx]

Thats about what I would expect from you, but your logic fails for 2 reasons.

1) Logical scum hunting increases the odds of lynching scum.

2) D1 wagons that are logical, even if they are wrong, lead to the basis of D2 and D3 logic.

[armlx]

This all sounds like more reason to suspect that

A) you are BM

and

B) you are a good vig target as using a lynch on you is a waste of valuable information gathering.

[armlx]

Actually I haven't seen Rosso for quite a bit; this a welcome respite from the lack of Rosso I have experienced.

The last 3 times I saw him he was lynched D2. Not a good track record.

[armlx]

yea i miss rosso. no homo

No one compares to Baby Jesus though.

[armlx]

Imagine if Rosso, on top of acting like Rosso, was also very good at mafia.

[armlx]

What's BM?

Beast Mastery.

Or Battle Mage, a player infamous for multi-posting, though I guess all his multi-posts are to talk about a new subject.

[armlx]

vote alvinz95

Wait! I CAN argue with dice!

unvote,
vote somestrangeflea

This post is win.

SSF, do you already know why truely randomizing your vote is anti-town, or do I need to go through the rant?

[armlx]

vote alvinz95

Wait! I CAN argue with dice!

unvote,
vote somestrangeflea

This post is win.

SSF, do you already know why truely randomizing your vote is anti-town, or do I need to go through the rant?

Anti-town maybe, but not, given the context, scummy.

You are correct. I am not saying you are scum, just not playing optimally.

[armlx]

vote: Cream147

I concur with this assessment of Cream's vote, and your response does not instill confidence either.

Unvote, Vote Cream

This vote is not about wagoning, its about you attacking the EXTREMELY easy lynch target on the basis of him acting normal for him.

FOS SSF

secondary to that, but you at least tried to make a case.

[armlx]

No, Gimbo, SSF is making valid arguments about why your actions are scummy. I have however seen enough players who just act this way or worse regardless of alignment (as discussed earlier) who are often the target of D1 mislynches. And its often the people who just say "Yeah, X is being scummy" and vote them who are scum, rather then those who analyze the players action based on a normal person's strategy rather then the skewed one said player has.

[armlx]

vote: Cream147

I concur with this assessment of Cream's vote, and your response does not instill confidence either.

Unvote, Vote Cream

This vote is not about wagoning, its about you attacking the EXTREMELY easy lynch target on the basis of him acting normal for him.

FOS SSF

secondary to that, but you at least tried to make a case.

How am I meant to know what's normal for him exactly?

His posts this game are very odd. So I clicked the profile button under his posts, view all posts by, and saw he was acting similarly in his other game. Had it been his first game, I probably would have just given him the benefit of the doubt anyways, as I doubt a new player would come in and deliberately act like this as scum, and if he was an alt odds are he would out himself as one at some point.

[armlx]

Things I endorse:

Using all coins ASAP so scum can't drain them.

Things I do not endorse:

Coin Pooling. Putting all the coins in one basket seems like the optimal way for something disasterous to happen, and pooling them with multiple people seems like the optimal way for scum to just get a bunch of coins.

I think that having some kind of system so that all coins are redistributed to someone we know/assume are town from lynchee's is probably a good idea though. That way other people can use coins still (issue with all pooling on one person), but at the same time we maximize the amount of coins used by pro-town people without risking the scum getting any by only giving to 1-2 confirmeds.

[armlx]

Yeah, but we won't do that. We will just lynch them.

I think you may be misreading what I am saying. The person about to be lynched bequeaths their fortune onto a confirmed.

[armlx]

Yeah, but we won't do that. We will just lynch them.

I think you may be misreading what I am saying. The person about to be lynched bequeaths their fortune onto a confirmed.

No one is confirmed D1 as town.

Your point? So we just don't have them hand out any, or we choose someone we can all agree is pro-town.

[armlx]

The problem here is people who know they are on the ropes will be eager to become our investigators. Because we still have to come up with a D1 lynch and whenever we start gaining the momentum on someone, they might step in and say 'hey, i'll investigate for you, don't kill me'. In which case, we will have a big problem D1 (right now).

I was referring to this.

TSN, I don't trust scum to A) claim the correct number of coins they have or B) us to only give coins to town at this point in time.

And yeah, Gimbo, even mafia will give away coins because of that. Only stubborn people on both sides won't.

[armlx]

That said, if it where to happen, I'd pool. But I'd rather have everyone do his own thing

I agree with this statement.

[armlx]

I concur with Phoebus, Gimbo. If you are going to want us to trust you with something like this, you have to put all your chips in the pot.

[armlx]

Full claiming was definitely the right option in this scenario.

[armlx]

Phoebus, alignments are revealed according to the first post.

I support the lynch, Gimbo revives the victim if they are town plan.

[armlx]

Phoebus, I see no reason to care if the claim is real or not today. If it isn't, we will know soon enough and lynch him.

[armlx]

iam, he was probably assuming him only scum would want to kill him at this point.

[armlx]

The trade + trade back thing seems valid, though I don't see what it accomplishes besides prove Surye has no item. Pretty sure Gimbo has an item based on that farside thing, unless farside was just bluffing her item (which was probably the other reason Lawrencelot was talking about as the first post says there are no power roles), and again his claim is confirmable by itself.

Those calling out Surye for the plan are dumb, as if Surye doesn't give it back he obv dies. Trading a scum for an item in a scenario where odds are you can NK that same item out of the game seems poor.

I found Gimbo's statement that one of the 6 players who talked about him early was scum and that we would just have to look back on D5 or whenever to see funny, as if you choose a random 5 people out of 24 odds are there is at least 1 scum among them.

SSF saying that he agrees with TSN that coin stuff can break the game but then saying he doesn't want to pile coins is odd. Saying you don't think TSN's strategy is a breaking one is valid, but saying it may be but not wanting to do it is shady.

SSF also attacked Gimbo's claim, saying 1-up is not a alignment based item. SSF, it is. Revival is a very town specific action.

Surye did the same. Deserves an

FOS

for that, but not his other behavior.

[armlx]

1-up for scum is very useless until it is very broken more or less.

[armlx]

Right, Surye, thats what I meant. Its useless, unless it ends up in endish game and turns into +1 scum.

Mod edit:
Visible votecount:
Cream147 (3): armlx, Phoebus, Alabaska J
TheSweatpantsNinja (2): sideney, iamausername
populartajo (2): Rogue Shenanigans, farside22
Xtoxm (2): DragonsofSummer, alvinz95
Alabaska J (1): populartajo
Surye (1): Celebloki
Mr. Incrediball (1): Riceballtail
somestrangeflea (1): Dead Rikimaru
farside22 (1): TheSweatpantsNinja
Surye (1): Gimbo
armlx (1): killa seven
Gimbo (1): somestrangeflea

Not voting (7): Xtoxm, Surye, mr. incrediball, MafiaSSK, Pepsidude, Cream147, FaerieLord

With 24 alive it takes 13 real votes to lynch.

[armlx]

Surye's part in this proves nothing except he has no item. You are definitely being paranoid farside.

[armlx]

TSN, please lay out how this coin claiming is going to be game breaking again, because right now I don't see it in the slightest.

[armlx]

Don't think Lawrencelot has been on since then Gimbo.

[armlx]

I get what you are saying Gimbo.

TSN seems like town, albeit his logic is not stellar. There probably is an optimal coin plan, but I don't think D1 mass claim and sort is it. Cream is more suspicious to me.

[armlx]

Rogue Shenanigans action is pretty odd to say the least in the context of poplar's post.

FOS Rogue Shens

Still think Cream's indifference on top of the opportunism is 10x scummier though.

[armlx]

Why would we be lynching cream? It seems like the rationale was "if cream is town, we can revive him." That's no reason to stop hunting scum.

Mainly because he attacked Gimbo early for more or less being the easy wagon.

Mod edit:
Visible votecount:
farside22 (3): TheSweatpantsNinja, iamausername, Gimbo
Cream147 (3): armlx, Phoebus, Alabaska J
TheSweatpantsNinja (2): sideney, Riceballtail
Xtoxm (2): DragonsofSummer, alvinz95
populartajo (1): farside22
Alabaska J (1): populartajo
somestrangeflea (1): Dead Rikimaru
armlx (1): killa seven
Gimbo (1): somestrangeflea

Not voting (9): Xtoxm, Surye, MafiaSSK, Pepsidude, Cream147, FaerieLord, Celebloki, mr. incrediball, Rogue Shenanigans

With 24 alive it takes 13 real votes to lynch.

[armlx]

If I'm wrong, please explain how you reached your '1 in 5' figure without knowing this.

This is rarely a valid argument unless the estimate is way off the standard 1/4 estimate.

[armlx]

Not really farside. 20 player theme games often have 6 scum, I've seen 24 player games with 7-8. All depends on groupings and types.

[armlx]

Did scum win those games? I only ask because that seems like a high % compared to # of players.

Its still pretty even with town power roles.

Pop, can gimbo even buy/use one of those as he already has the item.

[armlx]

Cream, indifference to minor cases is pretty scummy. Its the easiest way to get out of it as you stall until someone else does something dumb.

[armlx]

Notice the word 'pretty'.

Do you understand what it means? Pretty = quite = very.

[armlx]

EBWOP:

unvote, vote: no lynch

I don't get it.

[armlx]

MafiaSSK replaced out as soon as being prodded? Shocking.

Unvote, vote farside.

Where is that coming from?

FOS Alabaska

, might become a vote.

[armlx]

It's coming from a previous game armlx. See Mini 584.

The farside vote? Thats what I'm talking about. Not the replacement comment.

[armlx]

Umm, your just randomly voting Farside out of nowhere?

[armlx]

Umm, your just randomly voting Farside out of nowhere?

That was TSPN, and it's not out of nowhere, he was voting farside for a while then switched over to SSK momentarily for whatever silly meta reason.

Which is not to say that TSPN is not a good vote. That's just not a good reason for one.

I feel really dumb about now. I'm not even sure how I confused their two avatars to the extent that I did.

[armlx]

Sorry, I have a thing about being called wrong when I'm right (or indeed where I'm wrong), and I was right in this case.

Except you are wrong.

pretty

4.

Informal[/b] Rather large in size or degree; considerable
5. To a fair extent, rather

Irrelevant parts omitted.

Now stop trying to misconstrue statements based on false technicalities.

[armlx]

It's a town specific action, which means revival would be an action for a pro-town role, but, as I've already mentioned, the revival isn't part of a role, it's an item which could be completely independent of the role which holds it.

He started with the item, its basically his role.

On the breaking thing

We could, you know, play Mafia. You seem to be focussing on the coins as though they are the sole factor that will make or break the game. They're like powers in any other game: They're useful if we've got them, but we shouldn't be relying on them. Vigs, Cops and Bulletproofs (powers which we can buy) exist in many other games, but they don't serve as a replacement for standard scumhunting.

I missed our first line about it being abusable however. That sorta justifies this, but still, breaking the game is good, and you just completely ignoring thinking about that mechanic is pretty anti-progress.

[armlx]

Let's just lynch Cream instead.

I endorse this product or service.

[armlx]

Why cream huh?

Have you read the past 3 pages, let alone the entire game?

[armlx]

His attacking Gimbo early when it was evident Gimbo was not being scummy within his standard behavior was the start, then him completely dismissing/ignoring said accusation, then responding with the "I'm always scummy" defense, which I know is not true, and trying to dissuade a lynch with a soft claim of power role under the logic that even if he is revived he will be NK'ed ASAP again.

[armlx]

then him completely dismissing/ignoring said accusation

I covered that.

[armlx]

Ah, but his recent actions are more severe and, I feel, deserve separate mention.

Fair enough.

[armlx]

confirmed innocents are often just as powerful as unconfirmed power roles

Not true until much later in the game.

[armlx]

Cream, the town wants you dead. So no, it is not being opportunistic. It is following the town's lead. Which in this case is a null-tell

Umm, Cream is actually right here.

FOS FL

for making Cream's lynch look like a foregone decision, especially while not voting for him.

[armlx]

Ehh, I rarely vote.

I realize, but pushing a lynch without voting is not a good thing.

[armlx]

Mod, maybe some prods would be in due order as per the list Gimbo posted (minus those who have posted since then and what not).

[armlx]

I should start a count. The number of people whom guess my sex right

I did!

Don't try to build a meta against me with so few games under my belt...

Actually, only partly true, having few games under your belt simply means any meta has to based on ongoings.

[armlx]

Everyone has the potential of making something scummy and be bandwagoned to death.

True, but not true. Everyone has a chance, its just uneven so that scum have more of a chance.

[armlx]

No Lynch = very bad in 95% of scenarios.

[armlx]

If it is day one, then this percentage increases by 5%.

QFT, give or take. Barring an interesting open set up, this is true.

[armlx]

IMO, sidney is pretty null ATM based on my experience with him.

[armlx]

No, I do NOT believe Gimbo could be scum. Like I said, 1 up as scum is basically useless till it is way too good, and also if the ability is what I assume it is that is borderline too good for scum.

The exact reason for FOS/voting FL was:

Cream, the town wants you dead. So no, it is not being opportunistic. It is following the town's lead. Which in this case is a null-tell

When cream was only around min votes for deadline lynch (1/2 normal lynch) and FL wasn't voting Cream.

[armlx]

@ People with a townie PM: Did your PM ever suggest to you that Peach was anything but an actual player?

No.

[armlx]

I voted for FL for pretty much the same thing that armlx did

Except I didn't vote her, I am too busy with Cream.

[armlx]

The reasoning is still valid though...

Yeah, just felt like that was worth clearing up.

[armlx]

I think those questions were directed at all of those listed.

[armlx]

although pheobus thinking peach might be scum is odd...

You seem to be confused. The issue is not that, but instead him thinking no player has the role Princess Peach in the game.

[armlx]

For those who aren't aware, I was reaction fishing with my NL vote.

Traps only trap lazy people, not scum or town in specific.

[armlx]

True, but laziness can help catch scum if you do it right.

Wrong. True laziness is a null tell, forced laziness is lying and what not. Distinguishing the 2 though....

[armlx]

i'm sure i am confused... what is a mechanic, then?

A mechanic is something like the coins, an in game set of actions that changes the fundamentals of the game.

If I was a little tougher on LAL I would

goborage- What part of Riceball's posts is lying?

STRONG FOS Rogue Shenanigans

. His behavior this game seems very odd compared to my overall read on him, less content and more votes.

[armlx]

No, I wouldn't be surprised with a town-anger response. I kinda expected it anyway. I'm just trying something out. With the large number of players, I figured I could at least get enough of a reaction before it could escalate into my lynch.

Reactionary play where you do something legitimately scummy is dumb. Just saying, it just makes people validly want to lynch you, and your "trap" of them isn't worth anything.

[armlx]

Sounds like a lie:

For those who aren't aware, I was reaction fishing with my NL vote.

because:

I'm thinking you just wanted to sound cool after making such a lame post

But I can buy RBT making a fail trap.

I wouldn't so much call that a lie for the purposes of LAL. LAL lies are proven true.

[armlx]

All the people wagonning me are clueless goons.

Especially the one (whoever it is -- i can't even bother to find out at this time -) who wants to policy lynch me just because they find me and my words annoying -- get help/training/whatever...

If your play is going to be based on how you react to people's words...you've got another thing coming....might as well give up playing now.

Policy lynching is usually a stupid thing. Doing it just because you don't like what you're hearing about yourself...especially more so...!


Given all the raving about me these last few pages, only one person seems to have caught on to what I'm saying (though they don't seem to approve) but I'm fine by that.
The rest of you are a bunch of clueless lunatics with torches, out on a witch hunt!


For what it's worth, I'll echo Gimbo's polite post to Cream and

unvote: Cream ; vote: killa seven

This post makes me face palm in so many ways.

[armlx]

I think armlx is the government in my brain posting my thoughts before I can.

Interestingly enough, you are one of the people I have not yet mind bugged.

[armlx]

Because I find that his use of words, in particular, are what makes it scummy. They sound pro-town upon looking, but if you run them through your head as though someone were saying it, they sound very anti-town whichever way you run it.

What does this even mean?

[armlx]

What the heck Armix a strong FOS for Rogue. Get with it. He doesn't even give a good reason to jump from one wagon to the other.

If I had a second vote it would be there. However, I do not. Cream's utter dismissal of the case on him and Rogue + Riceball's attempts to pass off scummy actions as reaction testing would all deserve votes if I had them actually, but I find the first more suspect. Unsure who wins the tie breaker between the last two based on Rogue's wagoning vs. Riceball's rediculous "It just sounds scummy" comment on skitzer.

[armlx]

cream's wagon is dead. Sad Sad

Is this even a valid reason to unvote?

Not that I disagree with your choice of secondary vote at all, but do you believe Rogue is a better lynch then Cream?

[armlx]

Ok, so other things on Cream:

Lynch baiting
Defending himself on incorrect semantics.

[armlx]

do you believe Rogue is a better lynch then Cream?

I forward this question to you Alabaska J.

I remain unconvinced that this is true.

[armlx]

It kind of is when we have a deadline in two days and we need to get someone to 7 votes to get a lynch.

I did not notice that.

Unvote, Vote Rogue

[armlx]

Rogue's last post was not a claim.

It is highly unlikely my vote will move.

[armlx]

In other news, everyone calling

Phoebus

"Pheebz" is annoying me for some reason.

^Pheebs

THERE ARE NO OTHER PHEEBSES.

OR PHEEBZES.

I lol'ed.

[armlx]

UNVOTE; VOTE: RS

Curious to see if my vote matters or not in the end, but I'll appease Alabaska's request.

From Nolynch to hammer. Nice.

Is that a hammer? I thought we were still pretty far from a real lynch. By my count rogue is at deadline lynch + 1 aka real lynch - 5.

[armlx]

Something really bugs me about that claim. I don't think DK has been pro-Mario in ANY game in the Mushroom Kingdom. If I am wrong, someone can correct me, but vote stands.

[armlx]

Hmm. That certainly is more recent canon then the ones I was thinking of (namely way back when DK threw barrels at Mario).

Unvote

DK is pretty iconic, and until I see a counter claim, I would believe that RS is telling the truth about his role name. Rule 25 also implies that anti-Bowser is pro-town.

Vote Riceball

as of him + Cream he has more votes and this vote is the most progress towards the day day not resolving in a No Lynch. I will still vote RS if absolutely necessary to end the day in a lynch rather then NL, but if given the choice I would rather lynch Riceball after that claim.

[armlx]

The issue is if we want test Rogue we don't have actual time to do it today.

[armlx]

Crap, I just realized we don't know what time zone Lawrencelot is or what time of day the deadline is. This could get awkward.

Mod edit:
Visible votecount:
Rogue Shenanigans (6): goborage, Alabaska J, iamausername, Riceballtail, somestrangeflea, mr. incrediball
Riceballtail (5): skitzer, Gimbo, armlx, TheSweatpantsNinja, farside22
Phoebus (3): ashmite84, killa seven, Rogue Shenanigans
FaerieLord (1): Surye
Cream147 (1): sideney
Alabaska J (1): populartajo
killa seven (1): Phoebus

No lynch (1): malthusis

Not voting (5): andersonw, Cream147, FaerieLord, Celebloki, DragonsofSummer

With 24 alive it takes 13 real votes to lynch. Deadline: June 25th. At deadline, it takes 7 real votes to lynch.

[armlx]

6PM GMT tommorow...First post

Ok, will be online before then if needed to make a lynch.

[armlx]

I thought he had the banana for some reason and couldn't use it till he had 10 coins.

I don't get what you are getting at here. His claim is still straight up confirmable.

[armlx]

I rarely ever want to lynch someone with a confirmable claim who hasn't had a chance to confirm their claim, and especially have no desire to do so Day 1 of a large game.

[armlx]

Also I don't know how long getting 10 coins will take. I don't think we should be putting someone on the back burner so long without a good reason.

It shouldn't take that long. We can definitely help him with it. Even if he is straight up lying and just takes them its not the biggest loss as its 2 cop investigations max trading for a sure fire caught scum.

[armlx]

Sigh, another testable claim, though this one is cheaper if he is scum and more expensive if town.

Unvote, Vote Cream

[armlx]

Ummm, no. Confirmable at 6/10ths. I doubt we will be able to confirm whether a recieved coin is still in your possession.

[armlx]

I can attempt to give it straight back.

Good call.

RBT is confirmed to have that role. Lynching him today is not optimal.

SSF, you are wrong. If any of these players claimed an unconfirmable claim I would lynch them on the spot. None have. No reason to lynch confirmable townies when there are still other suspects.

So people, lets focus and not just screw up today.

[armlx]

We don't have any confirmable townies. We have some semi-confirmable roles. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. A bunch of people (including you, I think) thought the same thing about Gimbo and his role.

Semi-confirmable roles is the same thing at this point in the game.

[armlx]

People are calling him out on making an L-15? vote for a scummy looking guy

It was pretty evident without even metaing Gimbo that was his play style.

We don't have any confirmable townies. We have some semi-confirmable roles. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. A bunch of people (including you, I think) thought the same thing about Gimbo and his role.

Semi-confirmable roles is the same thing at this point in the game.

I CLAIM "SOMEONE WHO CAN RECEIVE COINS". GIVE ME A COIN TO PROVE THIS, AND I WILL RETURN IT.

*receives coin*
*returns coin*

I'M A CONFIRMED TOWNIE YAY.

I don't even feel this needs to be justified with a response.

[armlx]

It's called "Reductio ad absurdum".

Yeah, that. It falls in that large pile of bad reasonings.

[armlx]

@ armlx: You really shouldn't have nipped the Gimbo wagon in the bud then. I'm pretty sure you would have caught at least 5 other scum.

That is a valid point.

[armlx]

It's called "Reductio ad absurdum".

Yeah, that. It falls in that large pile of bad reasonings.

...

This is the part where you explain why.

Because you aren't using a reasonable, applicable comparison. You are comparing chihuahuas to wolves.

What you are doing is Strawmanning though. You are asking me to defend myself by explaining known logical fallicies, drawing attention from my original argument.

[armlx]

Because you aren't using a reasonable, applicable comparison. You are comparing chihuahuas to wolves.

I'm not "comparing anything to anything". I'm applying your argument...

Semi-confirmable roles is the same thing [as confirmable townies] at this point in the game.

...to an absurd situation (claiming a role which can receive coins) to highlight the flaws within it.

What you are doing is Strawmanning though.

GRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAH

*ahem*

Not true. Strawmanning is when you take a twisted form of an opposing argument and then disprove it. As you can see above, I haven't twisted your argument.

Yes. That is what you are doing. He is proven to have a non-standard role, and that is good enough for now. Your argument was "the game rules work, so I must be town", mine is "the game rules don't apply to him, which is a sign his role works as claimed, and usually that is pro-town".


K7, your vote is the same as voting NL. Please move it.

[armlx]

In like a couple hours....

[armlx]

But my argument still stands. Why should people who have had aspects of their role confirmed be seen as more likely to be town than those who have not?

Scum are more likely to be vanilla then town, and that specific ability seems very odd for a scum.

Same with perma jail.

[armlx]

Whats your point Surye?

[armlx]

I can see scum uses for a permanent stoppage of a players Night Choices and the removal of a Townie vote...

Did he say it removed the vote? And what about the bulletproof part?

Huh. I would say this is less likely to be true in Themed games.

Well, I guess it depends on the size of the scum group somewhat, but even then I expect a 50% ratio of scum as vanilla as opposed to a 20-40% town ratio.

[armlx]

Visible votecount:
Rogue Shenanigans (5): iamausername, mr. incrediball, skitzer, somestrangeflea, Surye
Cream147 (4): sideney, Riceballtail, armlx, farside22
Riceballtail (3):TheSweatpantsNinja, Alabaska J, Surye
Phoebus (3): ashmite84, killa seven, Rogue Shenanigans
Alabaska J (1): populartajo
killa seven (2): Phoebus, goborage

No lynch (1): malthusis

Not voting (5): andersonw, Cream147, FaerieLord, Celebloki, DragonsofSummer , gimbo

Also, visible vote count.

My hatred of wasting kill opportunities is clashing with my hatred of lynching confirmables outside of LyLo.

[armlx]

SSF: I would unvote. Not sure from there.

What with the ability for Town to buy killing items, I'd say Bulletproof is fairly useful for scum too.

Trading the ability to kill for bullet proof is not that good for scum.

Referring to RBT's claim.

I see.

[armlx]

Surely you can see where I'm coming from?

Yeah, sure, but I also would rather go to my next option that is still viable then lynch a confirmable role.

Only if they're the last scum alive...

Just in general its bad IMO.

[armlx]

Sigh, while I hate to do this, NL < lynching possible scum but confirmable if town.

Unvote, Vote RS

to ensure we get to 7 real votes.

[armlx]

Why are people claiming at the

drop of a hat?

L-1 or 2?

Are you sure you need the answer to this question?

Mod: tags fixed

[armlx]

ashmite, Riceball was going to lynched at deadline.

Gimbo, there are ways to do that that wouldn't result in his death.

[armlx]

Re: RBT, numerically yes RS was on 6 and RBT was on 5, but all the heat was currently on RS and no one was really discussing RBT, and he just pops in out of the blue and goes "all right guys, you've twisted my arm, I'll claim."

No, RS had just claimed and votes were shifting.

Unless you know something we don't, we don't know how many real votes he has.

No, I don't, but if its less than 7 it could be awkward.

[armlx]

Surye, you stole my point.

[armlx]

Results?

[armlx]

Yeah, definitely revive PT. I don't care what the other effect of the Shroom is, but the only way it could not be dangerous to revive RS is if the Shroom made him a complete stump (no actions, no coin stuff, no votes, only posts), and even then that would mean nothing as he would probably just not post. PT is an assured pro-town poster at the least.

Still interested in a Cream lynch.

Vote Cream

. SSF is mildly suspect for even suggesting a no revive.

[armlx]

if bringing a scum back to life is outweighed by the bad effect of this 'shroom... then that's an extremely odd shroom... if it's even possible to consider using this on a scum, then wouldn't it be detrimental to the town to use it on pop?

Except that it shouldn't be remotely considerable to use it on a town. Unless the draw back involves automatically town deaths. Then it could be awkward.

[armlx]

If the special property is what I think it is, that was not a good move...

What do you think it was?

[armlx]

I think that the revived player's alignment changes to that of the reviver.

Meh, I still don't see why that would be a problem. Just given a scum group a recruit like that would be unreal powerful, so Gimbo would be confirmed town on balance reasons.

[armlx]

I thought about it too SSF, but that'd be a bit unfair unless there's a good number of different scumgroups

I think Gimbo should say the entirety of the item, now that he used it

I endorse this product/service.

Or PT actually.

[armlx]

Gimbo/PT should reveal first, then Surye can confirm.

[armlx]

Why are you voting the person who has no part in refusing to claim SSF?

Mod edit:
Visible votecount:
Cream147 (1): armlx
Riceballtail (1): skitzer
Gimbo (1): Riceballtail
Surye (1): somestrangeflea

Not voting (18): iamausername, Phoebus, sideney, Surye, killa seven, Gremwell, mr. incrediball, TheSweatpantsNinja, Alabaska J, farside22, andersonw, malthusis, FaerieLord, Gimbo, Cream147, Korts, ashmite84, goborage

With 22 alive it takes 12 real votes to lynch.

[armlx]

Because he has both the information that we want and a reasonable possibility of being lynched.

Gimbo lacks the latter, so pressure votes won't work.

I realise that Surye hasn't actually posted since this whole scandal began, but it's always nice to have some pressure!

So, your point is you think Gimbo is town, but he is hiding info that would aid the town, so you want to pressure someone else in order to get him to reveal the info? This is 100% confusing.

[armlx]

So you want me to reveal, and if I do, it would probably hurt town, and I'll said 'i told you guys so' and then we lynch you, SSF, how's that plan?

I don't think it will hurt town. Reveal please.

[armlx]

You're going to need about 11 more people to agree with "let's lynch Flea if he does the oh-so-scummy thing of

attempting to spread fear and distrust about a pretty much confirmed townie and create baseless wagons on less confirmed townies based on said statements

Fixed.

Unvote, Vote SSF

[armlx]

Hang on. You actually believe that I don't really believe anything that I've said about Gimbo's alignment over the last 30 pages? That's a pretty strong accusation, and so far, the only basis for it is "not following the crowd".

Yes. I see no reason Gimbo should be anything BUT confirmed townie at this point,
and your pressing the issue is really scummy.

1. "baseless wagons... based on said statements" is a contradiction in itself.

Baseless simply means they lack a logical base, not an illogical one.

2. "Creating a wagon" is a way to say "casting the first vote on someone" whilst attempting to make it sound scummier than it is.

No, I'm referring to how you tried to push the rest of the town into pressuring Surye with you.

3. My vote for Surye was to obtain the information Gimbo was withholding. I've told you this multiple times already. It was not "based on said statements" made to "spread fear and distrust about a pretty much confirmed townie"

Again, Gimbo is pretty much confirmed town. I fail to see how indirectly bandwagoning him is going to help get the info. The correct procedure is just ask, not put votes down.

4. "less confirmed townies" implies that Surye is, in some shape or form, partially confirmed, which is not true.

No, it doesn't. He is less confirmed then Gimbo by being completely unconfirmed.

You're spared a vote because I want to hear a defence before I decide whether to or not. That, and I'm almost certain I'll get cries of [OMGUS Votes]

You seem awfully concerned with not being lynched.

Attempted to completely derail a conversation.
Attempted to dismiss a large amount of consistent gameplay as scummy using one sentence.
Contradicted yourself.
Radicalised a common action.
Ignored the reasoning given for an action then replaced it.
Misrepresented the standing of another player.

1st point: No, I didn't. I've said Gimbo should reveal, and said that your way of trying to go about it is scummy.

2nd: Except I'm right.

3rd: See above

4th: What common action? Trying to start an indirect wagon on a confirmed townie?

5th: I have a feeling your stated and actual reasons differ, hence my post. Replacing stated reasons with intended reasons is a part of making cases, amirite?

6th: I misrepresented nothing.

[armlx]

Gimbo is town. He is also wrong. Reveal the drawback please.

[armlx]

SSF, think Gimbo is town yet? Or still gonna hound a double voting reviver?

[armlx]

You seem to believe I think he's scum.

Thats how I'm reading your doubt that he is anything but confirmed town. If I am mistaken, please show me examples of your saying he isn't scum at all and I will rescind my accusation, as that is the main basis of it.

[armlx]

K, thats what I thought. My vote stands. Explain to me from a mod-balance perspective how Gimbo can be scum.

[armlx]

^ please justify why, do you have a better option?

2nd.

Pop has zero value? Does that mean he can't use items?

Pop is still valuable. He can discuss and scum don't really have incentive to kill him, especially with the whole confirmed not Peach thing.

also I know it means little coming from me but I feathered TSN, because I was suspicious of the coin pooling idea, and he checked out, for what its worth

Thank you for sharing, it helps. Also, why would it mean less coming from you?

[armlx]

I do. Namely "not confirmed townie".

You are cleary A) Scum or B) someone with no clear concept of the set up metagame or game balance

Only because you say so.

No, because trying to unconfirm people who actually have no chance of being scum is scummy.

Which is scummy because..? Kinda hard to get a wagon on your own...

Except your wagon was based on bad premises to begin with. Your justification was bad logic on someone you weren't trying to wagon.

"Just asking" wasn't going anywhere.

Except it did get somewhere.

You don't say "less full" for a glass that's completely empty...

You are working with semantics here.

Because..?

Not wanting confirmed townies = scummy, but thats not even the point here. You accused me of derailing a conversation, except everything I stated was on topic.

Because you say so.

No, because Gimbo is actually impossible to be scum and your insistence that he could be is nothing more then a thin scum ploy to set up a mislynch.

See above.

I was referring to the top of the post where I explained how it wasn't a contradiction.

You said "creating a wagon". Not the same as "trying to start in indirect wagon on a confirmed townie", which isn't even right as it implies that I was trying to get Gimbo lynched...

If you weren't trying to get a lynch, why did you place a vote instead of just asking unkindly?

The only assumptions I make about any setup are these:
1. There is at least 1 scum in it.
2. The town is bigger than in the largest scumgroup.
3. The mod won't lie.

How do you counterbalance a scum with an item which revives someone and takes their vote?
Give a townie an item which revives someone and takes their vote. Well that was easy.

There are probably tens (maybe hundreds) of other ways, but, since I'm a player, it's not my job to work any of them out.

Well, assumption 3 is a crap shoot, and there's so many more things you can straight up assume. 2 of these are

Targeted or delayed revival is either a town 1 shot or a zombie cult.
Double voters are pro-town unless the set up gives you an inordinate amount of town power to make you think otherwise.

Your balancing solution is terrible BTW. The strength of that ability for scum is beyond believable. Scum double votes are way too powerful, especially in a hidden real vote count system. Early hammers, auto-winning end games, etc.

[armlx]

I said it doesn't mean much coming from me because unless someone feathered me during the night, or I missed something in my read throughs I'm not confirmed town

Actually, I don't see why anyone wouldn't accept a town result on someone at this point, so long as its not a very, very bizarre case (ie top 2 scummiest people are the 2 people involved). I don't think scum would go out of their way early to link themselves to a false result.

[armlx]

Gimbo, there's a difference between being investigated and having an item which makes you more likely to be town.

This is a good way to explain why Gimbo's post was off track.

FALSE!

You are NOT confirmed town.

And then you accuse Grem of lying? I have half the notion to lynch you for saying this garbage. If you are going to say you're confirmed town, then you should be saying TSN is too, since there's at least as much evidence his direction than yours. You are defeating your own defense.

This is not. Threatening to lynch someone far more confirmed then anyone except maybe the 2 people mod confirmed town is not good play.

[armlx]

Then, by that merit, I'm confirmed too right?

Somewhat. Your role is not meta-confirmed town by being a reviver and double voter, 2 pretty much exclusively town roles. I think you are likely to be town as disabilities like you have are usually pro-town, but there still is a fair chance it could be a scum role, especially as only the non-item/coin part of your role has been demonstrated.

[armlx]

IAU, I wouldn't clear Gremwell just yet. The possiblity of scum faking an investigation on town still exists.

[armlx]

Gimbo, I do not believe the result is incorrect, only that by revealing it Gremwall is not confirmed.

[armlx]

^ yes, but the result could be incorrect, nothing about the investigation or Gremwell is confirmed. confirmed = 100%, 99% = unlikely but still unconfirmed

I doubt the result is incorrect. The two scenarios is if Gremwall is scum group A, TSN is scum group B, which is very unlikely and for all intents and purposes makes the investigation pro-town unless Gremwall flips scum, or a straight up gambit which is fairly risky. The later can be eliminated by simply saying TSN can not be the person to investigate Gremwall so that if it is true Gremwall is investigated by a 3rd party or or lynched to reveal alignment.

[armlx]

This made me laugh. You make less sense than a *insert something with no sense here*. I have a problem with Gimbo. He continually reminds us how he's nearly confirmed town. I can just imagine him as scum laughing behind our back. I'm pretty sure Surye is town. If he were scum, I don't think he'd care about Gimbo revealing the fact that Gimbo has 2 votes, he'd agree with Gimbo to keep it a secret, and then kill Gimbo at night.

You would also distrust Gimbo.

Either Cream or SSF is fine with me for now.

[armlx]

I would like to have pop investigate as he is the only true known alignment, but I worry about the scum taking him out before we get an answer.

Well, if they do, that's one more night gone by that they don't get to kidnap Peach. Sounds good to me.

This is a good post.

[armlx]

This is wrong though, as all I believe ssf is trying to say is that Gimbo is not necessarily confirmed given the information we have about him.

I see it more as SSF trying to leave Gimbo open for accusation. There is straight up no way in my mind if the game is balanced for him to be scum.

[armlx]

We don't know all the items and the number of scum players!

Actually irrel unless the mod just wanted to make the game more random and cut the scum numbers to fit in Gimbo's role as scum.

[armlx]

Or add more town power roles in the form of one-shots. We have a lot of potential one-shots. I think we have just seen the tip of the iceberg, really.

I don't think you fully comprehend just how powerful a scum double voter is.

[armlx]

Waiting on Riceball's transfer to fail before sending a coin.

[armlx]

if we get him a star he could hold everyone's extra coins over night and re distribute them the next day to keep scum from gaining coins from kills. only drawback is if there is some sort of scum coin stealing night ability. . .

I don't like this. Its practically a mass claim on coins, which I think will help the mafia more then us by far.

Alabaska's distrust of a confirmed townie is odd. Add him to the list.

[armlx]

Armlx, why do you think a massclaim on coins is bad?

Same reasons mass claim early is usually bad, gives scum perfect information while not leaving enough people cleared to win on the spot.

[armlx]

Actually, I don't think the primary goal for the scum would be to kill a confirmed townie anyway. Look at it like this: to scum, populartajo is now confirmed not-Peach.

You make a valid point, but this sounds like something that isn't good to risk as if the scum are just going for the killing people method of winning it just lets them blow us out.

[armlx]

I guess. I haven't really done the math, and discussing scum strategy much further seems like poor play as it just tells them how to play correctly.

[armlx]

What is the count on PT's coins? I have extra to give, but its not worth it unless he needs more.

[armlx]

I'd say that the mushroom does what it say it does, no more, no less.

Agree. Anything else is probably bastard moddery.

[armlx]

EBWODP: I can endorse the Star a day plan, as its actually a plan that we can prove logically works, instead of TSN's abstract concept or the cop thing that is iffy at best.

[armlx]

how many coins does he need as of now?

I am unsure. My count shows him short by 1, other people show him as over. I just want an answer from him.

[armlx]

I can see what Alabaska is saying (power roles more likely to have less coins which would be revealed), but it shouldn't be a huge issue.

[armlx]

Armlx and Alabaska
1. How many coins do you think scum could have?
2. Why do you think power roles more likely to have less coins?

1. This depends on whether the scum have pooled coins or individual coins, I'm assuming the later as the scum can buy multiple Fire Flowers barring additional hidden restrictions. From there, I see 2 alternatives.

A. 1 scum starts with 5+ coins, one with 3ish, and the rest with 0-1, aka 1 free kill for scum + 1 semi-power role + 3 vanillas.

B. Each scum has around 2-3 coins. Same total number as the first, with easier multi-kill potential, but the scum would have to consider coin swapping a bit more strongly.

The lack of a a second kill last night implies B, though infi things involving Mushrooms could have also happened.

2. Why is a cop less likely also be able to role block in a normal game? Same concept of keeping each role within limits. Also giving any power role 3+ coins makes them 1 shot unkillable, which doesn't seem the most balanced. Basically, I think Gimbo's role is very indicative of the power roles we can expect this game.

[armlx]

FoS: all lurkers
-skitzer
-Phoebus
-sideney
-andersonw
-malthusis
-ashmite84

start posting and contributing please.

Mod, please prod these people.

[armlx]

for some reason, I think that a scum is among the people who did give coins, esp. the ones who have a history of giving people coins willingly (maybe to prove something?).

I agree on the first point, but not the second. The first point is pretty much assured based on number of coin givers anyways.

[armlx]

I think the recent stall in gameplay is directly influenced by Flameaxe not yet having mod powers, and with the popular-coin-situation pretty much resolved, we should return to our regular scheduled programming shortly...

I concur with this. When in doubt, blame BBM.

[armlx]

yes, but scums might also give items willingly to appear pro-town while townies don't feel the need to give anything. its like the conscience of a scum.

Too townie comes to mind.

[armlx]

I will donate or coin-claim if that is the plan the majority wish to follow. Maybe we could vote?

Vote for Gimbo if you think this is a good plan. Once he gets lynched, we know it's a good one.

Nice posting.....

[armlx]

Lets not discuss potential pro-town roles, K?

As for the scum though, I would expect 5 in each group given the size, and the lack of a second kill which makes it pretty much assured there's no SK as 2 kills would have had to not happened then (assuming each group has a kill)

[armlx]

EBWODP:

First thing was referring to Gremwall.

[armlx]

I believe very much so that the DK Crew is a scumgroup.

No, thats obv. Its just a matter of whether they have a kill or not.

[armlx]

Mario-some sort of bowser roleblocker or peach bodyguard
Luigi-some weaker version of mario or something altogether different

This is what I was referring to Gremwell

[armlx]

We should test Riceball's no vote thing, but I can't think of a way to do that w/o potentially outing other double voters.

[armlx]

wait, how can we test it without getting RBT lynched? like i'm a double-voter, u could use me if you want.

Just get someone to L-1 and have him hammer, or have him on a band wagon that grows to lynch numbers.

[armlx]

I've just re-read RS' D1. On more than one occasion he defended Cream saying he didn't see the case against Cream / there were better lynches than Cream. Unless the two are in cahoots, I would have thought that the Cream wagon would have been a cushy place for RS to park his vote and get lost among the crowd.

Good call. Cream is acceptable to me.

Unvote, Vote Cream

That is 5 actual votes by my count: Alabaska, Ashmite, Gobor, Mr. I, myself, plus PT's non-vote.

[armlx]

Or you can just vote and we can determine if you have a vote or not by the visible vote count.

[armlx]

EBWDOP:

Visible vote count at the time of lynch I mean.

[armlx]

This is the second time armlx made a HUGE assumption on what the actual vote count is. I do not like this one bit. No sir. HoS: armlx

I highly doubt there are that many double voters in the game. Its usually a mechanic that is used sparingly to avoid "whoever logs on first wins" scenarios. Unless there is a reason to assume someone has more then 1 vote we shouldn't.

No votes is more likely though.

[armlx]

Oh, and though you seem to believe otherwise, scum don't act as predictably as you seem to think.

WIFOM defense.

Also, something interesting to note, the rules explicitly state Bowser can kidnap Peach, nothing about the DK crew.

[armlx]

Malth has been replaced elsewhere I believe. Why is he still in this game.

From what I've gathered from flavour (this is just an assumption), both teams want to be kidnapping the princess. Therefore, I find it more likely that the only competition between the scumgroups is who can kidnap her (and hold onto her) first.

See the rule I quoted.

[armlx]

Second Gimbo's post.

[armlx]

FaerieLord hasn't posted in a week and could also do with prodding.

He is active elsewhere. Prod would be nice.

[armlx]

So thats a presumed 8 real votes as PT = 0 and gimbo =2.

[armlx]

That's L-2. Claiming would be in your best interest. Before I hammer.

???????????????????????????????????????

He forgot the [joke]text[/joke].

[armlx]

I say we give the shroom to whoever popular investigates, as they seem like a very likely target, since that would effectively waste a star.

That would be Gremwell.

[armlx]

How are we certain that scum can buy things for the same amounts we can? I've kind of been wondering about this.

Because there are values posted on the front page for changed values, and that item has no changed value?

[armlx]

I agree with PT on this. All this has done (beyond clearing cream) is given out info for no reason.

Unvote

Back to SSF then.

Unvote, Vote somestrangeflea

[armlx]

sure I cleared a townie & because I go after some who questioned it that is scummy? If a few people are questioning it what makes them town versus scum?

I def don't think what you did is scummy, I just think what they did is not scummy and if they are town they are FAR away from the right tree to bark up, if you catch my drift.

[armlx]

sure I cleared a townie & because I go after some who questioned it that is scummy? If a few people are questioning it what makes them town versus scum?

I def don't think what you did is scummy, I just think what they did is not scummy and if they are town they are FAR away from the right tree to bark up, if you catch my drift.

Who is this quote by?

Farside.

[armlx]

Wait..what if Gremwell is an Investigation-Immune scum with along with TSN? It's possible.....

Extremely unlikely.

[armlx]

However Alabaska, your plan of action, to bring Elias in and give him a dayvig, would not work. Elias has clearly disappeared off the face of the planet.

I don't get it. But I agree with the words in bold and that Riceball is just being antagonistic.

[armlx]

Elias is V/LA for like forever because of some summer camp.

Again, don't get it. Is he in this game or something?

[armlx]

I am not going to lynch a person because they did not get a vanilla townie pm, sorry.

Second this.

[armlx]

and the fact that nobody counter-claimed yoshi means nothing to you?

I have an answer to this but would rather Alabaska answer first.

[armlx]

For everyone who seconded, thirded, fourthed, etc., my issue isn't necessarily that alabaska opposed the lynch, but the way he opposed it. I mean, he didn't even seem to consider it. . . sort of like he already knew he was town.

Can you point me to posts?

[armlx]

I feel his wagon is being pushed on very poor reasoning.

[armlx]

RBT is Yoshi. Alabaska has a case of the tunnel visions. Neither is getting us anywhere.

I endorse this post. I seemed to remember alabaska's vote flopping a lot, but upon review it wasn't anything other people didn't do (the whole deadline issue).

[armlx]

Also, armlx, smalltown plus is open and ready to start once you (and pwnz) confirm.

Thanks for the notice.

Not sure on the incrediball case, though this may be my general thought of what his meta could be messing with me.

[armlx]

btw, can't the scums kill one of Grem or TSN tonight? I mean, if they don't want confirmed townies, that's optimal. Therefore, the star tonight really only gets us 1 confirmed townie at best.

They could, but where does that get them?

If Grem was anything BUT town, why would he ask to be checked?

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=WIFOM

[armlx]

yea I know WIFOM....but that's a reach, isn't it?

Not really.

[armlx]

Hello peeps, I already reread, top of my scumlist is cream. For a lot of reasons that the town in general has already pointed out and because, way back when, he said:

Vote: Gimbo. By the way Gimbo, saying the word 'fuck' so excessively is in no way cool, but it is quite annoying. And remember,

if the town lose, you lose

Why on earth would you vote someone you know is town Cream? Further, how do you know he's town? That and I think that his claim does not exclude him from suspicion.

Slips are over-rated.

2nd.

Mod edit
Visible votecount:
mr. incrediball (5): iamausername, Gremwell, populartajo, Alabaska J, Syzygy
Alabaska J (3): Riceballtail, Thesweatpantsninja, farside22
iamausername (2): somestrangeflea, Cream147
ashmite84 (2): Korts, Lord Gurgi
Cream147 (1): killa seven
somestrangeflea (1): Armlx
killa seven (1): goborage

Not voting (8): Phoebus, andersonw, DarlaBlueEyes, FaerieLord, Surye, skitzer, mr. incrediball, ashmite84

With 23 alive it takes 12 real votes to lynch.
Deadline: July 27, 9 PM GMT

[armlx]

Can someone cite a reason they are voting Alabaska/IAUN outside of their reactions to Cream's claim?

[armlx]

Also, I've noticed that I'm being cited as scummy by Gurgi for "game behavior." Is it possible for you to be any more vague? I really don't think so.

I agree with this statement.

[armlx]

Also, we have a new Gimbo everyone:

where IS everyone??

Apparently so.

Epic lols.

[armlx]

4 days till deadline, lets get this moving I guess. Not really enthusiastic about this from an analysis stand point (though its not terrible), only a policy one.

Vote mr. I

Claim soon please.

Mod: not counted, unvote first

[armlx]

This is so awkward.....