GTKAS' vote
Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)
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Simenon Entitled
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The same thing the previous and subsequent votes accomplished, and what all these votes accomplish in the start of every game. That's serious business.Ectomancer wrote:
What do you hope your current vote placement will accomplish?Simenon wrote:
Who's joke voting? I'm taking my vote seriously.Ythill wrote:@ nureins: Never joke-voted, never will. I'll vote soon enough, and it will be with purpose.
But thanks for asking.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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Simenon Entitled
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Every single game will start out with this argument, so let me try to take a different course: if you legitimately thought that random voting helps the scum, why does every single game on this site start with random voting, including the sites best posters, and why did a mafia discussion topic have near unanimous support for random voting?habitang wrote:I'm not really following all this nonsense. It is joke voting, there can't be any argument built on that, although we pretty much have done that. I think by us talking about matters that are not relevant to this game will allow scum to respond way too easily as Townie.
I'll give you a hint: It isn't because it's fun.
Scum willSO the topic will develop discussion, but I think thsi type of discussion has a scum slant to it. I support discussingalwayshave a chance to manipulate discussion. Yet, we have it anyway.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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Simenon Entitled
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I think there were plenty of ways of reading post 41, but "seriously" was not one of them.Ythill wrote:I don't like the way Pope's #41 completely ignores what's been posted, and assumes Matin's alignment based on a null-tell.
Not a great case, but good enough for my first vote.
Vote: The Pope's Tiara
I also don't like how quickly Ythill backed down from his original position, and yet didn't switch his vote, which would normally indicate a change of mind.
The Ythill bandwagon is a good one.
Unvote
Vote Ythill
TPT: Despite evidence to the contrary, obnoxiousness isn't necessary.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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Simenon Entitled
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I'm not sure. Where did I say I was sure?Cass wrote:
Why are you so sure?Simenon wrote:TPT is town, by the way.
And yet, you have yet to point out where I'm adding "little content". I'm commenting on the game and trying to find scum. That, in my opinion, is enough content for me.I dislike how you make many posts, but with little content. Enough reason to change my random vote into a non-random one.
Unvote
Vote: Simenon
I am not defending pope. I am stating my opinion on him. The two are not the same.Jahudo wrote:You defend the Pope but give no reasoning.
Yet, I never said I voted Ythill for his voting pope. I just stated my reason for voting him.You also vote for the person on Pope’s offensive but again do not provide the reasons for why he is wrong.
That's three straight incorrect assumptions in a row. One of these kinds of games, I guess.
He had two options: argue it or not. And he chose the latter.What Ythill said was that he’d “consider that response” which is something you have do or it will lead to tunnel vision.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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Simenon Entitled
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I do it all the time. Since this is a normal game with day roles being highly unlikely, I feel there's little harm in phrasing that way. It has more of an impact.Cass wrote:
The way you phrased that sounds like stating a fact rather than an opinion. It is strange to state something like that without explaining yourself.Simenon wrote:
I'm not sure. Where did I say I was sure?Cass wrote:
Why are you so sure?Simenon wrote:TPT is town, by the way.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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It's an impression. It's a feeling. It's my gut. I don't see a scum reacting the way TPT did. It has nothing to do "scum-tells" or other notable quackery. If I had a reason to state, I would have stated it.Jahudo wrote: Ok. I can see how that makes a bigger impression on the words you say if you are confident about them during more serious investigations, but if you had reason to doubt you’d explain that too though? At this point we’re more or less even anyway.
So, in other words, you chose not to argue it, whatever your reasons.Ythill wrote: @ Simeon: I didn't choose to refrain from arguing. I opted to refrain from arguing at that moment, for two reasons. (1) I was leaving for work. (2) Pope's answer caught me a little off guard because I couldn't imagine anyone claiming that his previous statement (#25) was a joke.
Pope losing his cool might be obnoxious and bad for the town, but it feels genuine enough to me. And I feel the players pushing his wagon are scummy.I do understand the tactic of posting statements like "TPT is town" even when one is not sure, but I would like to read at least a summary of your reasons for finding him innocent.
whatnureins wrote:Even if I do not agree with the words, I do agree with the essence.
Why was it necessary that I do?If you really think he is town, why havent you tried to explain it carefully ?
whatthere are plenty of players voting for him ! So your words can only generate more votes on him...Do not take it personal and close in your shell.
I am neither taking it "personal" nor closing in my "shell". Brevity is the soul of good mafia posting.
Them's people are wrong. Later in the game, if/when Pope dies, they can look at my statement and know exactly what I felt about Pope. A statement like that has no unnecessary embellishment. I'm a telling it like it is.People is telling you that your opinions can only be useful if they are reasoned...otherwise, as I told before, your words can only put tpt under more pressure and this is bad if you think he is town, is that right ??
See, there you go again. Your use of "quickly" makes no sense here unless you clarify what it means.you did two things:
quicly said that TPT was town without any argument
Good for me. I'm glad I did. Without bandwagons, mafia would be a near impossible game.voting the only other participant with a relevant number of votes
The one way a player can possibly emulate the brilliance that is MeMe is by not stating reasons for why a player is town. In fact, I regret making the original statement. It can only help the scum:Precisely, to know which one is the correct, Id like to know your reasons and carefully describe them. Why TPT is town, why ythill is scum. You seem to be participating a lot. Please do not take things as personal and try to answer the questions of others and to give all of us arguments for a better vote...
1. If a player is established by everyone to be town, it greatly increases the likelyhood for a townsperson to be nightkilled.
2. I am not going to try to move any votes off of someone unless I have a reason other than "this person is a better lynch." Voting is the best possible tool out there for gathering information. I am not going to corrupt that natural process.
As for why Ythill is scum, well, I stated my reasons already.
Nobody can be sure until he's dead.Why do you have your words to have more of an impact if you are not so sure about tpt ? that is the point.
Okay okay okay. When did I say "mildly convinced?" You wouldn't call an object "a tiny bit humongous". I'm not "convinced" at all. But he appears town to me. That's enough for me to state as much.You are mildly convinced that he is town, so ponder your words about him.
Don't lecture.Do the same, this helps to know how much you value him.
Also, I'll note you said "what the hell could lead a townie to vote himself." So you are noting someone with a rational mind wouldn't vote himself. But then why would a scum ever want to? It's generally not in a scum's interest to react irrationally. Now, faking that irrationality is a whole different story. But I don't think Pope's doing that. That's an emotional reason for not supporting Pope's lynch. And, on page 5, that is definitely enough.
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The above post iswaytoo long.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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Simenon Entitled
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Explain what that essence is, because it isn't clear to me.nureins wrote:
The essence of Cass' argument, though i would not have written it so plain, probably because my suspicions on all of you are milder than hers...but I agree with the essence of her argument...Simenon wrote:
whatnureins wrote:Even if I do not agree with the words, I do agree with the essence.If you are town, you have only created more suspicions on you and him.
Both you and Cass like to throw out assertions without backing them up, and then when they're questioned, throw out more assertions. It's not helpful or clear.
See: I have no interest in decreasing the votes on him.Simenon wrote: do you want me to repeat ?
my opinion is:
1. u defend him with reasonable arguments, u decrease the number of votes on him.
Either prove it or stop making the point. Recycling the same argument and not explaining is really, really annoying.2. u defend him without arguments, u increase the number of votes on him and on you...
I don't see how it hurts the town.Oh congratulations, People is wrong and you appear as being correct after the lynch of an innocent...and ?? is this a way to help the town ? I think no...
That's a bizarre usage of "quickly".Simenon wrote: quickly simply meant without a written reflection.
I have already stated that I felt the bandwagon was a bad one. I like bandwagons, but I'm not going to back a bad one. Ythill had already developed as an option at that point.There was a bandwagon on TPT. If Bandwagons are the essence of the game, why didnt you remained on it to extract more information? why you tried to deviate attention from this bandwagon to another at this precise moment, instead of defending with arguments the person inside the bandwagon ?Precisely, to know which one is the correct, Id like to know your reasons and carefully describe them. Why TPT is town, why ythill is scum. You seem to be participating a lot. Please do not take things as personal and try to answer the questions of others and to give all of us arguments for a better vote...
1. You shredded the quotation to fit your point. That's not compelling.No. My sentence means how could a RATIONAL TOWNIE would do that ??
This is the part I cannot understand. This leads me IRRATIONAL TOWNIE OR SCUM. And I have serious doubts on irrationality, given TPT's post, therefore... (you can end up the logical argument). In any case, I asked for information about Voting Oneself, since it is something completely new for me, so I wanted more information.
2. A scum has no reason to vote oneself either. So, the only option that's left is "irrational townie" or "scum who is trying to act like an irrational townie." I felt the former.
1. Show where I've posted "gut feelings" as fact.I do not like Simenon's explanation. Posting gut feelings (for that's what it was...) as if they are facts confuses things. And even more so in the long run. It also makes it very easy for him to backtrack on things he has said, later in the game. My vote stays where it is.
2. Show where I've backtracked.
If you don't quote, post numbers please.
Assertions are lazy.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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Ugh. This post contains my three least favorite words: "scumtell", "evidence", and "least-helpful"Cass wrote:Well, I think not helping town is generally a scum-tell But yes, if there is no evidence on anyone, I think lynching the least helpful player is not a bad thing. It's the smallest loss for town, and he might just be scum... I much prefer evidence, though.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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It was an assertion, but I was not using it as grounds for an accusation.Cass wrote:
That's whatBoth you and Cass like to throw out assertions without backing them upyoudid and what started this whole debate.
Because I haven't commented on any of the reasons why people might suspect TPT. I've merely stated my feelings on the matter; I haven't actually responded to any of the accusations.How is saying someone is town, and the badnwagon on them is bad,nota defense of that person?
They certainly aren't the basis for a lynch, or a way to accuse someone of being scum. Your assertions actually require proving to be effective. Since I'm not trying to actively move votes with mine, mine do not.1. Show where I've posted "gut feelings" as fact.the only option that's left is "irrational townie" or "scum who is trying to act like an irrational townie." Ifeltthe former.
Did I say that was a fact? I don't believe I said that was a fact. Hey, it appears I even used the world "felt", which suggests it was a feeling, not a fact!
That's pure crap. You can't seriously be accusing me of crimes I haven't committed, butYou haven't yet. I will as soon as you start doing it. The excuse 'short posts are good' will not convince me.will. That's plain silly.A question: isn't 'TPT is town' an assertion? Isn't your explanation of that comment full of assertions? Or are these very special, rare,
good assertions?SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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Sorry.nhat wrote:Oh Lawd, this game done blew up, gonna have to do a reread. Peoples be making somelong assposts.
I don't easily drop arguments.habitang wrote:OMGUS at Nureins and Simenon. Why be so exclusive for? It's like you two are bickering while the rest of us just give commentary on the side.
Here we go again.nureins wrote: Post 105 was long enough as to clarify each point, especially if they are clear...Cass voted you because of you posting so much with so few words/arguments...I didnt agree with her words, though I did with the essence of this argument. I clarified later why I found you suspicious at first...Post 105, second of my paragraphs...
Whatwords?
Whatessence?
Not if you don't back them up!is it not helpful to make assertions ?
Then they cease to be assertions when you reason them.especially reasoned.
I'm sure anyone else would realize that I'm actually quoting your assertions, commenting on why they are assertions, and them asking you to back them up.Also, it is curious that YOU state that CASS and ME are making assertions without backing them. Am I the only laughing at this ? I guess the answer is NO..
Nope. I'm fine if people who I think are town get run up. I can be wrong, and I'm not about to disrupt the vast amount of information we can gain from a bandwagon.Umm curious...so I considered tpt mildly suspicious (he was competing with Ythill in my mind to get the first serious vote) and I WANTED TO DECREASE THE VOTES ON HIM because even for my thoughts, L-2 was exagerated for him. And YOU, who thought he was town, was not interested in decreasing the votes on him ?
I would use "protown".Let's see, which is the word for this attitude ?
But I stated that this wasn't my intention! Why are you going around in circles?With respect to TPT, it is not your sentence what reduced the number of votes on him. Nobody has taken your words as an argument to cast out a vote.
whatFirst of all, I guess you want Cass to answer this question, asi you quote her. It is curious that in a post in which you put dozens of my quotes, you include one of Cass without clarifying she did. Especially curious when you try to put us in the same basket (you can read your first words in the post to support this assertion...).
Hey, that's bad for the town. Don't do that.Even if it is not for me, I'll answer anyway.
How do you know it wasn't developed? Just because I didn't develop that opinion in the thread doesn't mean I hadn't thought about it first.1. Clearly, not a very developed form of an opinion and the reasons of such opinion, but simply a statement declaration.
When she said so, I responded to it by saying that her comment was useless. It's about as helpful as "I think you're are going to be scum, so I'll vote you." It's a nonreason.2. She did not. Her words were: "It also makes it very easy for him to backtrack on things he has said, LATER IN THE GAME", which was also a reason for which I didnt like an unreasoned statement by you. Pretty clear that no accusation to you of backtracking. Umm, by the way, is backtracking a word for what I let undefined in my debate about decreasing votes ?? umm Im just interrogating, not stating, though Im starting to answer myself that yes...so you didnt want to help tpt...you just put words for other reasons we cannot know...
No, they aren't. Reread the Cass post.Who is accusing you of backtracking now or in future? Your posts in which you try to sell the idea that Cass and Me were accusing you of things like backtracking are crap...your insistance is for me very scummish...
And for god's sake stop treating your self like a dual account.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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Cass wrote:I feel good about my vote on him, overdefensiveness this early (with just one or two votes on him) also tends to be a scum-tell
Great Yos quote.Yosarian2 wrote:"Defending yourself, are you, scum? HAH! Overdefensive!"
I did once actually think this was a valid argument back when I first started playing, until I played as scum and realized just how easy it was to lynch townies with the "Attack them, then when they defend themselves call them overdefensive" trap.
No, I have not.plus his slight OMGUS-ing on me and nureins... bad vibes all over the place.
And Cass, you turned it into a big issue when you used it as a basis for voting me. I'm doing nothing else except responding to your arguments.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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Simenon Entitled
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It's you reacting to me that is the cause of your vote. That doesn't mean I'm created that reaction in you on purposeCass wrote:Simenon, all I did was swap my random vote for a vote with a weak reason. The way you responded to that makes it a vote with astrongerreason.
Don't be dense. I responded to your original post by saying assertions are bad when you try to lynch somebody for it. If you had actually read that, you wouldn't need to bring it up again.You are still contradicting yourself. First you say "X is town", is a good post - now you say "assertions must be backed up". Those two opinions are mutually exclusive.
I would have no problem with that. That's a statement that doesn't need verifying.If you can say "X is town", why can't I say "X gives me scummy vibes". Or "misrepresenting is scummy". What's the difference? That it's directed at you?
But "You have done X, which is why I'm voting you"does.Because if you aren't going to go through the effort of actually proving it, what good is it?
"X is town", on the other hand, can't be proven. You can't even prove it if you say "X is town because he did Y". You can't ever prove it. Which is why "evidence" is such a dead and useless word.
Nope.If I had posted "Simenon is town", would you have urged me to back it up?SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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You'd actually have to wait for me to become available to answer the question.Ythill wrote: @ Simenon: For chrisskaes, answer the question. Did you accidentally misread my response about arguing later vs. not arguing at all? What, am I typing in braile?
No, I did not misread it. My point just wasn't valid, that's all.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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Well, you sure phrased that strangely.Ectomancer wrote:
That's a load of bullshit. I said nothing about giving up. I removed my vote because I no longer felt like my vote should be sitting on Nurein when I didn't feel confident about what is going on there.Simenon wrote:
I did not claim to have one. However, I also didn't throw up my arms and say "WELP LOOKS LIKE THE WATERS ARE TOO MURKY CONTRIBUTE HERE."Ectomancer wrote:
If you have such a clean read, why dont you go ahead and give it?Simenon wrote:Ectomancer wrote:unvote
The water is too murky.
Because I was reading it as "the water is too murky". Which is a totally empty statement.
And there's more. I've been commenting on the game to my satisfaction, certainly.Theproblem I have with your statement is Pot, Kettle, Black.REAL
Remember this?
It's later.Simenon wrote:Unvote
More later.
And I honestly don't see the hypocrisy. You said "the water is too murky", which implies that you can't make a point. I said "more later", which is the direct opposite.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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Agree. It sounds way too fake and it really doesn't fit the post at all.nhat wrote:
That's a whole lot of flipping out for someone who has no votes on him. Let's change that!habitang wrote:Argh. I can see scum cheering at my stupidity. Yes I feel the heat of beign suspected by a lot of people. I can only ask that I be given benefit of the doubt, like really really give me benefit of the doubt.
Argh in a game like this, that is not a logical thing to request. But I am sick of being teh stupid player, I do try.
I will be useful to Town for as long as I live. Don't lynch me!
Yes I believe that was anotehr of my suicidal raves. Argh at my impatience. Argh that can't possibly be an excuse for scummy behaviour! Sorry eveyrone for me completely losing it again!
Honestly, can I redo with a clean slate? I wish I never posted anything now.
Not only am I going on a rave, I think that if I just let everything go, then maybe you will see me better.
Present emotion: OMGUS at lots of people! Especially myself. Argh. I want to vote Tritch to save my own ass but I think Tritch just lost it like a normal human being.
Also no1 seems to be suspecting Jahudo except me! Doesn't that say something about scum backing off? Read Jahudo's posts!!
please don't lynch me
unvote
vote - Habitang
Unvote Vote habitangSEND THE VECTOIDS-
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Oh come on. It was plain silly and unreal.Ythill wrote: I don't buy a lot of the reactions to his latest post. It was an unnecesarry appeal to emotion, yes, but he's done this before, just not so explicitly. The added intensity seems to have naturally developed from the increased number of arguments against him.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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I understand the function of your list, but I was making a point myself: if you're going to nail somebody for opportunistic behavior (which I don't oppose), I would naturally go for the person who isn't committing to a vote.Goatrevolt wrote:
Look at the 3 people I listed again. I left out Nhat and you and you are both voting for habitang. That list was not a "who's currently voting for habitang list," which is why I'm still confused by your line of questioning. I agree with your general sentiment though, and I generally will count FoS' as similar to votes in situations such as this.Simenon wrote:
The opportunistic club. I don't see why that necessarily has to refer to voting.Goatrevolt wrote:
Out of what?Simenon wrote:I noticed you're leaving out Cass, Goat.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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If presented the choice, I'd always go for the easier one. And the easier choice there is to "FoS".Goatrevolt wrote:
I disagree with the idea that a FoS is more opportunistic than a vote. Both can be opportunistic, but a vote actually furthers along the wagon. I feel much more confident going for the person who threw on additional meaningless reasoning to justify their vote, especially since Andycyca was in my top 3 prior to the habitang vote anyway.Simenon wrote:I understand the function of your list, but I was making a point myself: if you're going to nail somebody for opportunistic behavior (which I don't oppose), I would naturally go for the person who isn't committing to a vote.
But whatever.
They sure do tell me something!True, but silly and unreal do not tell me anything about his alignment.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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The whole point of being town is being real. Townies shouldn't fake anything. Meanwhile, a scum wants to fake emotional explosions because they keep them from getting lynched. This is at the heart of Pooky's strategy, and why it is so hard to get him lynched as scum (although habitang, with all do respect, is no pooky).Ythill wrote:
About his alignment? Really? Please explain what and, more importantly,Sim wrote:
They sure do tell me something!True, but silly and unreal do not tell me anything about his alignment.how.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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I see more fake looking posts.Ythill wrote:@ Sim: I obviously wasn't reading "unreal" as literally as you meant it. Rereading habit's appeal, I do see what you mean but it's a tone he's had all along. What do you think of earlier examples like his #27 & 30 (#s in isolation)?
But I mean, two "arghs" in one post?
I don't think habitang crafted that post well at all.Yes, but habit was in no danger at all. The effect of the post was to draw the spotlight to him, something which could have been foreseen. To play the WIFOM game... what do you think of a player who is crafty enough to employ this tactic but daft enough to time it so poorly?
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Could someone actually provide examples where andy would be considered "active lurking"?
Because (this is aimed at goat, who will get this reference) when I think active lurking, I think CPE. Or WoD. I definitely do not consider andy's play anything like that. You might accuse it of being empty, or devoid of original thought, or opportunistic, but the "active lurking" charge needs to be proven.
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Goat's comments on Jahudo are interesting, especially conclusions 2 and 3.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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No, I mean actually prove it with quotations, links, or post numbers.Goatrevolt wrote: He doesn't have a lot of solid stances or opinions. He follows along with the game and will comment on most issues, but that's about it. Until his vote on Habitang, I couldn't honestly tell you exactly how he felt about people, because most players he seemed to have fairly down the middle. He mentioned suspicion of TPT, but also was unwilling to lynch him yet. I disagree with his vote on habitang, but at least his reasoning is consistent with his play thus far, at least lending him credibility for now.
engaging or exciting and holding the attention or curiosityI'm not sure what you mean by interesting.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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hm?nureins wrote:
I dont want to assume anything, but your posts were equally long and frequent when your access was full,.Simenon wrote:The people making the long posts are really making it hard for the people with partial access.
Could you please minimize your PBPA just a little bit, Jah? It would be a big help.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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So, so, so wrong. Complete more than one game before you talk shit about mafia theory.nureins wrote:
The only scenario under which Im able to see your frustration is that you are scum and you would like to lynch an innocent I would defend...Simenon wrote:Or maybe I'm just frustrated because your ramblings tend to focus on defending people who are perfectly capable of defending themselves.
Less verbose =/= less reasoned.Indeed, your vote to habitang is the most unreasoned, and your first participation in the game was defending someone who was "perfectly capable of defending himself" by saying, hey guys, he is town. I prefer to give reasons for stating my opinions, that is obviously different.
See? I managed to say that in four words, plus three symbols. You probably would have said it in at least seventeen paragraphs.
Why?And by the way, it sounds to me extremely suspicious that you have a vote on a player, Jahudo makes a full case on that player, and instead of making comments and read profusely, you ask this player to be concise, forget to comment on him and focus on ridiculous lurking things around him...
Is there anything you would like me to comment on?
Otherwise, shut up.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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More wishy wishy washy. What does this actually say about anything?habitang wrote:Well there isn't much evidence that I can actually point to say Andycyca is sucmmy here and here.
Ectomancer probably posts less than Andycyca but Andycyca has a tendency to not commit and label a lot of things as null-tell.
At this stage especially I would like to hear about his top suspect, there is plenty of evidence to go on.
The first part of this post is annoyingly useless. "Keep it up, guys" is not the most subtle way of buddying up to new replacements.habitang wrote:It's great there is so much discussion with the new guys, keep it up. Except it seems like the rest of us have dropped off with this new round of discussion.
It seems like a while since Andycyca last posted. Makes me more suspicious of him. He is fitting my drive-by lurking more. He was quite active when it came to my lynch but now as things with that have died down, so has he.
My vote stands.
The second point is invalid. Why is it significant that he slowed when habit's lynch died down?
This gave me a bad vibe. I think it's the "somebody needed to say something" bit. What prevented you from saying something?Ythill wrote:THank you, habit. Somebody needed to say something. Let's put the conspiracy evidence on hold until we have a confirmed alignment to work with.
I too am interested in what "slippery" actually means.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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nuriens' posting strategy:
Make bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Accuse poster of contrary opinion of repeating himself.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Accuse poster of contrary opinion of not reading nurien's posts "all along" and of repeating himself.SEND THE VECTOIDS-
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