Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[Simenon]

Vote Andycyca

GTKAS' vote

[Simenon]

@ nureins: Never joke-voted, never will. I'll vote soon enough, and it will be with purpose.

But thanks for asking.

Who's joke voting? I'm taking my vote seriously.

[Simenon]

@ nureins: Never joke-voted, never will. I'll vote soon enough, and it will be with purpose.

But thanks for asking.

Who's joke voting? I'm taking my vote seriously.

What do you hope your current vote placement will accomplish?

The same thing the previous and subsequent votes accomplished, and what all these votes accomplish in the start of every game. That's serious business.

[Simenon]

Am i doing it wrong?

No. I'd wish the metagame would place less emphasis on it being a "joke", because that gives the wrong impression that random voting is frivolous, which I believe it's absolutely not.

[Simenon]

I'm not really following all this nonsense. It is joke voting, there can't be any argument built on that, although we pretty much have done that. I think by us talking about matters that are not relevant to this game will allow scum to respond way too easily as Townie.

Every single game will start out with this argument, so let me try to take a different course: if you legitimately thought that random voting helps the scum, why does every single game on this site start with random voting, including the sites best posters, and why did a mafia discussion topic have near unanimous support for random voting?
I'll give you a hint: It isn't because it's fun.

SO the topic will develop discussion, but I think thsi type of discussion has a scum slant to it. I support discussing

Scum will

always

have a chance to manipulate discussion. Yet, we have it anyway.

[Simenon]

Ah, goats beat me to the punch.

[Simenon]

This conversation reminds me of my custom title on another mafia site:
"Random voting" is not a defense.

True words, people.

[Simenon]

Why are you trying to appear to gather information out of a series of irrelevant posts?

Gathering information? Unprecedented!

He must be an original role.

[Simenon]

TPT is town, by the way.

[Simenon]

I don't like the way Pope's #41 completely ignores what's been posted, and assumes Matin's alignment based on a null-tell.

Not a great case, but good enough for my first vote.

Vote: The Pope's Tiara

I think there were plenty of ways of reading post 41, but "seriously" was not one of them.

I also don't like how quickly Ythill backed down from his original position, and yet didn't switch his vote, which would normally indicate a change of mind.

The Ythill bandwagon is a good one.

Unvote
Vote Ythill

TPT: Despite evidence to the contrary, obnoxiousness isn't necessary.

[Simenon]

TPT is town, by the way.

Why are you so sure?

I'm not sure. Where did I say I was sure?

I dislike how you make many posts, but with little content. Enough reason to change my random vote into a non-random one.

Unvote
Vote: Simenon

And yet, you have yet to point out where I'm adding "little content". I'm commenting on the game and trying to find scum. That, in my opinion, is enough content for me.

You defend the Pope but give no reasoning.

I am not defending pope. I am stating my opinion on him. The two are not the same.

You also vote for the person on Pope’s offensive but again do not provide the reasons for why he is wrong.

Yet, I never said I voted Ythill for his voting pope. I just stated my reason for voting him.

That's three straight incorrect assumptions in a row. One of these kinds of games, I guess.

What Ythill said was that he’d “consider that response” which is something you have do or it will lead to tunnel vision.

He had two options: argue it or not. And he chose the latter.

[Simenon]

And if you see Simenon's last action, I'm not prepared either. He JUMPED over Ythill as a fast runner. Let's see what appears from all this debate.

That expression is meaningless unless you qualify it.

[Simenon]

TPT is town, by the way.

Why are you so sure?

I'm not sure. Where did I say I was sure?

The way you phrased that sounds like stating a fact rather than an opinion. It is strange to state something like that without explaining yourself.

I do it all the time. Since this is a normal game with day roles being highly unlikely, I feel there's little harm in phrasing that way. It has more of an impact.

[Simenon]

Ok. I can see how that makes a bigger impression on the words you say if you are confident about them during more serious investigations, but if you had reason to doubt you’d explain that too though? At this point we’re more or less even anyway.

It's an impression. It's a feeling. It's my gut. I don't see a scum reacting the way TPT did. It has nothing to do "scum-tells" or other notable quackery. If I had a reason to state, I would have stated it.

@ Simeon: I didn't choose to refrain from arguing. I opted to refrain from arguing at that moment, for two reasons. (1) I was leaving for work. (2) Pope's answer caught me a little off guard because I couldn't imagine anyone claiming that his previous statement (#25) was a joke.

So, in other words, you chose not to argue it, whatever your reasons.

I do understand the tactic of posting statements like "TPT is town" even when one is not sure, but I would like to read at least a summary of your reasons for finding him innocent.

Pope losing his cool might be obnoxious and bad for the town, but it feels genuine enough to me. And I feel the players pushing his wagon are scummy.

Even if I do not agree with the words, I do agree with the essence.

what

If you really think he is town, why havent you tried to explain it carefully ?

Why was it necessary that I do?

there are plenty of players voting for him ! So your words can only generate more votes on him...

what

Do not take it personal and close in your shell.

I am neither taking it "personal" nor closing in my "shell". Brevity is the soul of good mafia posting.

People is telling you that your opinions can only be useful if they are reasoned...otherwise, as I told before, your words can only put tpt under more pressure and this is bad if you think he is town, is that right ??

Them's people are wrong. Later in the game, if/when Pope dies, they can look at my statement and know exactly what I felt about Pope. A statement like that has no unnecessary embellishment. I'm a telling it like it is.

you did two things:

quicly said that TPT was town without any argument

See, there you go again. Your use of "quickly" makes no sense here unless you clarify what it means.

voting the only other participant with a relevant number of votes

Good for me. I'm glad I did. Without bandwagons, mafia would be a near impossible game.

Precisely, to know which one is the correct, Id like to know your reasons and carefully describe them. Why TPT is town, why ythill is scum. You seem to be participating a lot. Please do not take things as personal and try to answer the questions of others and to give all of us arguments for a better vote...

The one way a player can possibly emulate the brilliance that is MeMe is by not stating reasons for why a player is town. In fact, I regret making the original statement. It can only help the scum:
1. If a player is established by everyone to be town, it greatly increases the likelyhood for a townsperson to be nightkilled.
2. I am not going to try to move any votes off of someone unless I have a reason other than "this person is a better lynch." Voting is the best possible tool out there for gathering information. I am not going to corrupt that natural process.
As for why Ythill is scum, well, I stated my reasons already.

Why do you have your words to have more of an impact if you are not so sure about tpt ? that is the point.

Nobody can be sure until he's dead.

You are mildly convinced that he is town, so ponder your words about him.

Okay okay okay. When did I say "mildly convinced?" You wouldn't call an object "a tiny bit humongous". I'm not "convinced" at all. But he appears town to me. That's enough for me to state as much.

Do the same, this helps to know how much you value him.

Don't lecture.

Also, I'll note you said "what the hell could lead a townie to vote himself." So you are noting someone with a rational mind wouldn't vote himself. But then why would a scum ever want to? It's generally not in a scum's interest to react irrationally. Now, faking that irrationality is a whole different story. But I don't think Pope's doing that. That's an emotional reason for not supporting Pope's lynch. And, on page 5, that is definitely enough.

~~~~
The above post is

way

too long.

[Simenon]

Even if I do not agree with the words, I do agree with the essence.

what

The essence of Cass' argument, though i would not have written it so plain, probably because my suspicions on all of you are milder than hers...but I agree with the essence of her argument...

Explain what that essence is, because it isn't clear to me.

If you are town, you have only created more suspicions on you and him.

Both you and Cass like to throw out assertions without backing them up, and then when they're questioned, throw out more assertions. It's not helpful or clear.

do you want me to repeat ?
my opinion is:
1. u defend him with reasonable arguments, u decrease the number of votes on him.

See: I have no interest in decreasing the votes on him.

2. u defend him without arguments, u increase the number of votes on him and on you...

Either prove it or stop making the point. Recycling the same argument and not explaining is really, really annoying.

Oh congratulations, People is wrong and you appear as being correct after the lynch of an innocent...and ?? is this a way to help the town ? I think no...

I don't see how it hurts the town.

quickly simply meant without a written reflection.

That's a bizarre usage of "quickly".

There was a bandwagon on TPT. If Bandwagons are the essence of the game, why didnt you remained on it to extract more information? why you tried to deviate attention from this bandwagon to another at this precise moment, instead of defending with arguments the person inside the bandwagon ?

I have already stated that I felt the bandwagon was a bad one. I like bandwagons, but I'm not going to back a bad one. Ythill had already developed as an option at that point.

Precisely, to know which one is the correct, Id like to know your reasons and carefully describe them. Why TPT is town, why ythill is scum. You seem to be participating a lot. Please do not take things as personal and try to answer the questions of others and to give all of us arguments for a better vote...

No. My sentence means how could a RATIONAL TOWNIE would do that ??
This is the part I cannot understand. This leads me IRRATIONAL TOWNIE OR SCUM. And I have serious doubts on irrationality, given TPT's post, therefore... (you can end up the logical argument). In any case, I asked for information about Voting Oneself, since it is something completely new for me, so I wanted more information.

1. You shredded the quotation to fit your point. That's not compelling.
2. A scum has no reason to vote oneself either. So, the only option that's left is "irrational townie" or "scum who is trying to act like an irrational townie." I felt the former.

I do not like Simenon's explanation. Posting gut feelings (for that's what it was...) as if they are facts confuses things. And even more so in the long run. It also makes it very easy for him to backtrack on things he has said, later in the game. My vote stays where it is.

1. Show where I've posted "gut feelings" as fact.
2. Show where I've backtracked.

If you don't quote, post numbers please.
Assertions are lazy.

[Simenon]

Well, I think not helping town is generally a scum-tell But yes, if there is no evidence on anyone, I think lynching the least helpful player is not a bad thing. It's the smallest loss for town, and he might just be scum... I much prefer evidence, though.

Ugh. This post contains my three least favorite words: "scumtell", "evidence", and "least-helpful"

[Simenon]

Both you and Cass like to throw out assertions without backing them up

That's what

you

did and what started this whole debate.

It was an assertion, but I was not using it as grounds for an accusation.

How is saying someone is town, and the badnwagon on them is bad,

not

a defense of that person?

Because I haven't commented on any of the reasons why people might suspect TPT. I've merely stated my feelings on the matter; I haven't actually responded to any of the accusations.

1. Show where I've posted "gut feelings" as fact.

the only option that's left is "irrational townie" or "scum who is trying to act like an irrational townie." I

felt

the former.

Did I say that was a fact? I don't believe I said that was a fact. Hey, it appears I even used the world "felt", which suggests it was a feeling, not a fact!

You haven't yet. I will as soon as you start doing it. The excuse 'short posts are good' will not convince me.

That's pure crap. You can't seriously be accusing me of crimes I haven't committed, but

will

. That's plain silly.

A question: isn't 'TPT is town' an assertion? Isn't your explanation of that comment full of assertions? Or are these very special, rare,

good assertions

?

They certainly aren't the basis for a lynch, or a way to accuse someone of being scum. Your assertions actually require proving to be effective. Since I'm not trying to actively move votes with mine, mine do not.

[Simenon]

Oh Lawd, this game done blew up, gonna have to do a reread. Peoples be making some

long ass

posts.

Sorry.

OMGUS at Nureins and Simenon. Why be so exclusive for? It's like you two are bickering while the rest of us just give commentary on the side.

I don't easily drop arguments.

Post 105 was long enough as to clarify each point, especially if they are clear...Cass voted you because of you posting so much with so few words/arguments...I didnt agree with her words, though I did with the essence of this argument. I clarified later why I found you suspicious at first...Post 105, second of my paragraphs...

Here we go again.

What

words?

What

essence?

is it not helpful to make assertions ?

Not if you don't back them up!

especially reasoned.

Then they cease to be assertions when you reason them.

Also, it is curious that YOU state that CASS and ME are making assertions without backing them. Am I the only laughing at this ? I guess the answer is NO..

I'm sure anyone else would realize that I'm actually quoting your assertions, commenting on why they are assertions, and them asking you to back them up.

Umm curious...so I considered tpt mildly suspicious (he was competing with Ythill in my mind to get the first serious vote) and I WANTED TO DECREASE THE VOTES ON HIM because even for my thoughts, L-2 was exagerated for him. And YOU, who thought he was town, was not interested in decreasing the votes on him ?

Nope. I'm fine if people who I think are town get run up. I can be wrong, and I'm not about to disrupt the vast amount of information we can gain from a bandwagon.

Let's see, which is the word for this attitude ?

I would use "protown".

With respect to TPT, it is not your sentence what reduced the number of votes on him. Nobody has taken your words as an argument to cast out a vote.

But I stated that this wasn't my intention! Why are you going around in circles?

First of all, I guess you want Cass to answer this question, asi you quote her. It is curious that in a post in which you put dozens of my quotes, you include one of Cass without clarifying she did. Especially curious when you try to put us in the same basket (you can read your first words in the post to support this assertion...).

what

Even if it is not for me, I'll answer anyway.

Hey, that's bad for the town. Don't do that.

1. Clearly, not a very developed form of an opinion and the reasons of such opinion, but simply a statement declaration.

How do you know it wasn't developed? Just because I didn't develop that opinion in the thread doesn't mean I hadn't thought about it first.

2. She did not. Her words were: "It also makes it very easy for him to backtrack on things he has said, LATER IN THE GAME", which was also a reason for which I didnt like an unreasoned statement by you. Pretty clear that no accusation to you of backtracking. Umm, by the way, is backtracking a word for what I let undefined in my debate about decreasing votes ?? umm Im just interrogating, not stating, though Im starting to answer myself that yes...so you didnt want to help tpt...you just put words for other reasons we cannot know...

When she said so, I responded to it by saying that her comment was useless. It's about as helpful as "I think you're are going to be scum, so I'll vote you." It's a nonreason.

Who is accusing you of backtracking now or in future? Your posts in which you try to sell the idea that Cass and Me were accusing you of things like backtracking are crap...your insistance is for me very scummish...

No, they aren't. Reread the Cass post.

And for god's sake stop treating your self like a dual account.

[Simenon]

I feel good about my vote on him, overdefensiveness this early (with just one or two votes on him) also tends to be a scum-tell

"Defending yourself, are you, scum? HAH! Overdefensive!"
I did once actually think this was a valid argument back when I first started playing, until I played as scum and realized just how easy it was to lynch townies with the "Attack them, then when they defend themselves call them overdefensive" trap.

Great Yos quote.

plus his slight OMGUS-ing on me and nureins... bad vibes all over the place.

No, I have not.

And Cass, you turned it into a big issue when you used it as a basis for voting me. I'm doing nothing else except responding to your arguments.

[Simenon]

Corrections:

Then

asking you to back them up.
think are town

getting

run up

[Simenon]

Simenon, all I did was swap my random vote for a vote with a weak reason. The way you responded to that makes it a vote with a

stronger

reason.

It's you reacting to me that is the cause of your vote. That doesn't mean I'm created that reaction in you on purpose

You are still contradicting yourself. First you say "X is town", is a good post - now you say "assertions must be backed up". Those two opinions are mutually exclusive.

Don't be dense. I responded to your original post by saying assertions are bad when you try to lynch somebody for it. If you had actually read that, you wouldn't need to bring it up again.

If you can say "X is town", why can't I say "X gives me scummy vibes". Or "misrepresenting is scummy". What's the difference? That it's directed at you?

I would have no problem with that. That's a statement that doesn't need verifying.

But "You have done X, which is why I'm voting you"

does.

Because if you aren't going to go through the effort of actually proving it, what good is it?

"X is town", on the other hand, can't be proven. You can't even prove it if you say "X is town because he did Y". You can't ever prove it. Which is why "evidence" is such a dead and useless word.

If I had posted "Simenon is town", would you have urged me to back it up?

Nope.

[Simenon]

Unvote

More later.

[Simenon]

@ Simenon: For chrisskaes, answer the question. Did you accidentally misread my response about arguing later vs. not arguing at all? What, am I typing in braile?

You'd actually have to wait for me to become available to answer the question.

No, I did not misread it. My point just wasn't valid, that's all.

[Simenon]

I'll agree that conciseness is the best possible posting style for the town. But I am not one to let points against me go unanswered. And I certainly don't think argument is "chaos".

[Simenon]

It is never best to avoid discussions.

Argument is the only tool we townies have besides our vote. It shouldn't be misused. But you

can't

refuse to use it all together.

And scum are lynched over semantics. This is a game about language.

[Simenon]

-Simenon and Nureins have posts longer than John Holmes.

I haven't actually posted anything long. I don't think I gave more than a three sentence response for much.

[Simenon]

And I haven't even shared all of the scumtells I've seen from you.

Bad idea.

[Simenon]

Ythill is absolutely correct on the latter.

[Simenon]

unvote

The water is too murky.

[Simenon]

unvote

The water is too murky.

If you have such a clean read, why dont you go ahead and give it?

I did not claim to have one. However, I also didn't throw up my arms and say "WELP LOOKS LIKE THE WATERS ARE TOO MURKY CONTRIBUTE HERE."

[Simenon]

unvote

The water is too murky.

If you have such a clean read, why dont you go ahead and give it?

I did not claim to have one. However, I also didn't throw up my arms and say "WELP LOOKS LIKE THE WATERS ARE TOO MURKY CONTRIBUTE HERE."

That's a load of bullshit. I said nothing about giving up. I removed my vote because I no longer felt like my vote should be sitting on Nurein when I didn't feel confident about what is going on there.

Well, you sure phrased that strangely.

Because I was reading it as "the water is too murky". Which is a totally empty statement.

The

REAL

problem I have with your statement is Pot, Kettle, Black.

Remember this?

Unvote

More later.

It's later.

And there's more. I've been commenting on the game to my satisfaction, certainly.

And I honestly don't see the hypocrisy. You said "the water is too murky", which implies that you can't make a point. I said "more later", which is the direct opposite.

[Simenon]

Vote matin

Hasn't said anything controversial or substantive, except in a defense of him/herself (what is your gender, by the way?)

I think we should pressure somebody who doesn't talk as much right now.

[Simenon]

Argh. I can see scum cheering at my stupidity. Yes I feel the heat of beign suspected by a lot of people. I can only ask that I be given benefit of the doubt, like really really give me benefit of the doubt.

Argh in a game like this, that is not a logical thing to request. But I am sick of being teh stupid player, I do try.

I will be useful to Town for as long as I live. Don't lynch me!

Yes I believe that was anotehr of my suicidal raves. Argh at my impatience. Argh that can't possibly be an excuse for scummy behaviour! Sorry eveyrone for me completely losing it again!

Honestly, can I redo with a clean slate? I wish I never posted anything now.

Not only am I going on a rave, I think that if I just let everything go, then maybe you will see me better.

Present emotion: OMGUS at lots of people! Especially myself. Argh. I want to vote Tritch to save my own ass but I think Tritch just lost it like a normal human being.
Also no1 seems to be suspecting Jahudo except me! Doesn't that say something about scum backing off? Read Jahudo's posts!!

please don't lynch me

That's a whole lot of flipping out for someone who has no votes on him. Let's change that!

unvote
vote - Habitang

Agree. It sounds way too fake and it really doesn't fit the post at all.

Unvote Vote habitang

[Simenon]

I don't buy a lot of the reactions to his latest post. It was an unnecesarry appeal to emotion, yes, but he's done this before, just not so explicitly. The added intensity seems to have naturally developed from the increased number of arguments against him.

Oh come on. It was plain silly and unreal.

[Simenon]

I noticed you're leaving out Cass, Goat.

[Simenon]

I noticed you're leaving out Cass, Goat.

Out of what?

The opportunistic club. I don't see why that necessarily has to refer to voting.

[Simenon]

I noticed you're leaving out Cass, Goat.

Out of what?

The opportunistic club. I don't see why that necessarily has to refer to voting.

Look at the 3 people I listed again. I left out Nhat and you and you are both voting for habitang. That list was not a "who's currently voting for habitang list," which is why I'm still confused by your line of questioning. I agree with your general sentiment though, and I generally will count FoS' as similar to votes in situations such as this.

I understand the function of your list, but I was making a point myself: if you're going to nail somebody for opportunistic behavior (which I don't oppose), I would naturally go for the person who isn't committing to a vote.

[Simenon]

Andycyca, who seem to be lurking in plain sight.

What?

[Simenon]

I understand the function of your list, but I was making a point myself: if you're going to nail somebody for opportunistic behavior (which I don't oppose), I would naturally go for the person who isn't committing to a vote.

I disagree with the idea that a FoS is more opportunistic than a vote. Both can be opportunistic, but a vote actually furthers along the wagon. I feel much more confident going for the person who threw on additional meaningless reasoning to justify their vote, especially since Andycyca was in my top 3 prior to the habitang vote anyway.

If presented the choice, I'd always go for the easier one. And the easier choice there is to "FoS".

But whatever.

True, but silly and unreal do not tell me anything about his alignment.

They sure do tell me something!

[Simenon]

I'll have partial access from the 15th to the 31st. Last year, I was able to continue my games, but I can't be sure this time. If an issue arises, I'll contact the mod.

[Simenon]

True, but silly and unreal do not tell me anything about his alignment.

They sure do tell me something!

About his alignment? Really? Please explain what and, more importantly,

how

.

The whole point of being town is being real. Townies shouldn't fake anything. Meanwhile, a scum wants to fake emotional explosions because they keep them from getting lynched. This is at the heart of Pooky's strategy, and why it is so hard to get him lynched as scum (although habitang, with all do respect, is no pooky).

[Simenon]

@ Sim: I obviously wasn't reading "unreal" as literally as you meant it. Rereading habit's appeal, I do see what you mean but it's a tone he's had all along. What do you think of earlier examples like his #27 & 30 (#s in isolation)?

I see more fake looking posts.

But I mean, two "arghs" in one post?

Yes, but habit was in no danger at all. The effect of the post was to draw the spotlight to him, something which could have been foreseen. To play the WIFOM game... what do you think of a player who is crafty enough to employ this tactic but daft enough to time it so poorly?

I don't think habitang crafted that post well at all.
~~~
Could someone actually provide examples where andy would be considered "active lurking"?

Because (this is aimed at goat, who will get this reference) when I think active lurking, I think CPE. Or WoD. I definitely do not consider andy's play anything like that. You might accuse it of being empty, or devoid of original thought, or opportunistic, but the "active lurking" charge needs to be proven.
~~~
Goat's comments on Jahudo are interesting, especially conclusions 2 and 3.

[Simenon]

He doesn't have a lot of solid stances or opinions. He follows along with the game and will comment on most issues, but that's about it. Until his vote on Habitang, I couldn't honestly tell you exactly how he felt about people, because most players he seemed to have fairly down the middle. He mentioned suspicion of TPT, but also was unwilling to lynch him yet. I disagree with his vote on habitang, but at least his reasoning is consistent with his play thus far, at least lending him credibility for now.

No, I mean actually prove it with quotations, links, or post numbers.

I'm not sure what you mean by interesting.

engaging or exciting and holding the attention or curiosity

[Simenon]

Goat, I'm not convinced by his apologetic tone as of late, and I didn't find the "partner" comment was too out of place until I heard his later defense of it, which is muddled and hard to believe.

[Simenon]

The people making the long posts are really making it hard for the people with partial access.

Could you please minimize your PBPA just a little bit, Jah? It would be a big help.

[Simenon]

The people making the long posts are really making it hard for the people with partial access.

Could you please minimize your PBPA just a little bit, Jah? It would be a big help.

I dont want to assume anything, but your posts were equally long and frequent when your access was full,.

hm?

[Simenon]

I raised the point because you're wrong. My content was nowhere near the level of Jahs PBPA's or your incessant ramblings.

[Simenon]

Or maybe I'm just frustrated because your ramblings tend to focus on defending people who are perfectly capable of defending themselves.

[Simenon]

Or maybe I'm just frustrated because your ramblings tend to focus on defending people who are perfectly capable of defending themselves.

The only scenario under which Im able to see your frustration is that you are scum and you would like to lynch an innocent I would defend...

So, so, so wrong. Complete more than one game before you talk shit about mafia theory.

Indeed, your vote to habitang is the most unreasoned, and your first participation in the game was defending someone who was "perfectly capable of defending himself" by saying, hey guys, he is town. I prefer to give reasons for stating my opinions, that is obviously different.

Less verbose =/= less reasoned.

See? I managed to say that in four words, plus three symbols. You probably would have said it in at least seventeen paragraphs.

And by the way, it sounds to me extremely suspicious that you have a vote on a player, Jahudo makes a full case on that player, and instead of making comments and read profusely, you ask this player to be concise, forget to comment on him and focus on ridiculous lurking things around him...

Why?

Is there anything you would like me to comment on?

Otherwise, shut up.

[Simenon]

Otherwise, shut up.

You can't tell people to shut up in this game. Sorry.

Finger of Shame Simenon

.

Back to my read.

I get angry when new players try to lecture me on what "town would never" do.

[Simenon]

Note that I didn't tell nuriens to "shut up".

The charge that I have not "provided enough content" was in fact exactly what I responding to, Ask me what to comment on, and we'll get somewhere.

Otherwise, well, you know.

[Simenon]

Listen, I'm going to take a short break from this game, because I've been nasty sick these past couple of days, and I think it's been affecting my play.

[Simenon]

I wasn't talking to you.

[Simenon]

Fact remains is that such a pbpa is not really solid evidence

What exactly is meant by "solid evidence" here? Do you consider your own reasonings against goat to be "solid evidence"?

[Simenon]

Well there isn't much evidence that I can actually point to say Andycyca is sucmmy here and here.
Ectomancer probably posts less than Andycyca but Andycyca has a tendency to not commit and label a lot of things as null-tell.

At this stage especially I would like to hear about his top suspect, there is plenty of evidence to go on.

More wishy wishy washy. What does this actually say about anything?

It's great there is so much discussion with the new guys, keep it up. Except it seems like the rest of us have dropped off with this new round of discussion.

It seems like a while since Andycyca last posted. Makes me more suspicious of him. He is fitting my drive-by lurking more. He was quite active when it came to my lynch but now as things with that have died down, so has he.

My vote stands.

The first part of this post is annoyingly useless. "Keep it up, guys" is not the most subtle way of buddying up to new replacements.

The second point is invalid. Why is it significant that he slowed when habit's lynch died down?

THank you, habit. Somebody needed to say something. Let's put the conspiracy evidence on hold until we have a confirmed alignment to work with.

This gave me a bad vibe. I think it's the "somebody needed to say something" bit. What prevented you from saying something?

I too am interested in what "slippery" actually means.

[Simenon]

...and he needs to be replaced. :/

[Simenon]

You think it's natural to tell someone to shut up in a mafia game? Do you think it's pro-town to tell someone to shut up? Please answer with 'yes' or 'no'.

Do you think it's protown to tell someone to answer with only a "yes" or "no"?

This is a serious question.

[Simenon]

I don't find it an easy question to answer "clearly".

And I was shutting down conversation. I was demanding it.

[Simenon]

nuriens' posting strategy:
Make bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Accuse poster of contrary opinion of repeating himself.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Accuse poster of contrary opinion of not reading nurien's posts "all along" and of repeating himself.

[Simenon]

You put the word analysis in quotations, but I never used that word.

Why?

[Simenon]

You put the word analysis in quotations, but I never used that word.

Why?

Those aren't quotation marks, they're irony marks. It was an analysis, but I dont consider it worthy of that name, thus.

Do you believe it was meant to be taken as a serious analysis?

[Simenon]

I just can't take Ythill seriously when he just insists on referring to anyone he attacks as scum and just harps on them about it.

How else?

On another note, I'm very happy where my vote is.

[Simenon]

Oh christ, "Slight FoS". What does that even mean? Should we do a "slight fos" count?

[Simenon]

Simenon, do you think that your play style is helpful to the town?

If we are to take your depiction as accurate (I personally find it unfair), then I don't see how it can possibly hurt. I'm asking what I think are the right questions; vague and inconsistent language that should at the very least be cleared up. Could I be doing more? Certainly. But as I've said, this game is very hard to get into, and I have a lot of work to do. So here it is.

Do you think that the fact that Ythill ignored all the points that I quoted above is pro-town?

What exactly are you asking here?

[Simenon]

How

is it unfair. Back this up.

The burden of proof is

not

on me here.

Not bad =/= not anti town.

Yes, it necessarily means it's not anti-town by definition.

You have to actually contribute.

In my view, I am contributing.

Now, what I am going to say is not that I assume you are scum, but I think you could imagine that it could be possible that someone started thinking you were scum, desperately trying to avoid getting into really big debates (such as ythill-me) but also trying not to lurk. Could you give us the town version of your behaviour (ie. clarify your behaviour while assuming that you are town)?

What?

This question is really, really muddled.

Why should I have gotten into a big debate?

Horrible. Absolutely horrible. Just answer the question please. Yes or no with an explanation.

No. It is your job to clarify your questions. I am not going to get pushed into responding to verbal traps.

And for god's sake stop being disingenuous. Your insistence on forcing "yes or no" answers on confusing questions is bizarre.

[Simenon]

See, Sim? Now he's doing it to you.

yeah. This:

You are wrong. If that is your definition of scumhunting, then this debate is over. You didn't reply to the points I told you to reply to, and you blatantly continued what you were doing. You are not helpful to the town in doing so and I am now pretty damn sure that you are in fact scum.

is pretty silly.

[Simenon]

Yeah. I mean, for a guy that claims to not be slippery, that's a whole lot of

Argue like I tell you to or you are obv-scum and I'm not talking to you anymore.

What was "Hahahaha. Whatever, scum."

[Simenon]

How

is it unfair. Back this up.

The burden of proof is

not

on me here.

You could've just answered the question.

Nope. The burden of proof is on you. I can't respond to evidence that isn't there.

Not bad =/= not anti town.

Yes, it necessarily means it's not anti-town by definition.

So, let's try again. I do think your play is bad for the town. Why? Because it doesn't contribute, and gives the town less information than when you would contribute more.

But I think I am contributing. I wrote that before, and then you responded by asking me to prove that claim. But you have yet to provide evidence for my lack of contribution. See? You have to back up your claim first so I know what I am actually responding to.

You're contributing a bit, but not enough. You just comment on single one-liners that you picked up and you reply to them with a one-liner. Sure, this contributes a bit, but you could've done more.

I'm trying to do the little bit that I can.

And most of my posts are "one-liners." That doesn't make my points any less valid.

You could've also answered it. Let me rephrase. I want you to clarify your play in your last few posts. I can't do this since I don't know if you're town or not, and you do know your own alignment.

I think I already did. My play for right now has been to either respond to your points if they're valid or to ask you to back them up if I think they aren't.

I didn't say that. If you had gotten into a big debate, it would've been helpful, but there are also other ways to be helpful. For example, I think that what Cass is doing is helpful. I am not going to tell you exactly how to be helpful, if you're town you should know what to do.

Thanks. I've played consistently for almost two years as both town and scum, which as you can imagine involves plenty of games and plenty of posts. I don't think you need to tell

me

what helps the town and what hurts the town.

Let me rephrase: What do you think of Ythill's playstyle (which includes not answering a very large part of my defense)?

I couldn't care less about Ythill's playstyle. It seems fairly mainstream and conventional. I don't like his "hahaha your scum" thing, since it seems uncharacteristic.

Now, if you were to ask me how I think Ythill's play has been, that's different. I'm not too impressed. I've already quoted a few posts where the language felt strange to me. I will quote myself if you need me to.

Learn to back up your claims.

Why

is it silly?

Learn to back up

my

claims? That's rich.

It's silly because you're obviously trying to shoot his point down by pretending to take offense, when really Ythill's point is actually quite reasonable.

[Simenon]

If it came to deadline, I'd be willing to vote for any of the three wagons.

I actually suspect nuriens is town. But his posts are hard to read and he's a struggle to keep up with. When you get to the point of his post, it ends up not being worth reading in the first place. I wouldn't support his lynch above SirDan, but I certainly wouldn't mind finishing him off if it came to that. See my characterization of his playstyle (it was a joke, but it had some truth to it).

I've already commented on Ythill being awkward in this game. I still am seeing his Post 621 as a big act of hypocrisy. Some of his language choices have been unfortunate ("someone needed to say something"). His argument with sirdan was silly at best. As much as I dislike constraints on discussion, I have to agree with the rest of the thread: "haha you're scum" is a waste of space. I'm not liking much here, but there are also some things to appreciate; his attack on Jah, for example.

I'm probably going to devote more time to sirdan later. In the meantime, a rough summary: I don't like his initial attack on goat, which was a much hyped analysis that turned out to have nothing much behind it. When he was called out on that, he ceded points until he was left waffling. His attack on Ythill was marked by men in straw. Eventually, when the straw guys collapsed, he wrote If that is your definition of scumhunting, then this debate is over", which was weak. I don't like his repeated attempt to force people into taking simplistic issues on complex questions (there are many examples of this). He explanation of it was okay, but I still think it discourages nuance, when many of his questions require that nuance.

That's just where I stand. I would prefer a wagon on pacman, but since these are our three leaders, I'm okay with them too. Jahudo is also someone I'm willing to consider.

[Simenon]

I actually suspect nuriens is town. But his posts are hard to read and he's a struggle to keep up with.

It seems it is hard to read my posts, but you are buying all my arguments. You consider Ythill suspicious for something I first noted so long ago when he attacked me. Now I'm fascinated for how people awake to that attitude so late. And you consider Sirdan suspicious for something I first noted so long ago when he constructed Goat's case. Anyway, I do not want any medal at all, but if you consider me town, I guess it is not only my task to write "better" but yours to read "better" too.

You're assuming that I consider post 642 to contain original thought, which is a baseless assumption as well as an incorrect one.

[Simenon]

I have a first choice (obviously pacman) and a second choice (sirdan), but after that it all gets pretty arbitrary, right? I don't see the point in a ranked list.

[Simenon]

I play for fun, not to nit-pick through 27 dry ass pages to appease anyone.

Why do you play mafia

Ecto: Good catch. Pac oughta die today.

[Simenon]

An interesting tidbit, in another game I'm playing, some of the players are trying to say that being replaced in a game without a good reason is a scumtell in itself. I don't totally buy it, but has anyone else seen this argument before?

It's not a good argument. It exists because it is necessary for this site to discourage flaking in any way possible. Such arguments arise out of that necessity. It's similar to "lynch all people who don't read their win condition." These metas exist only to discourage behaviors we find unethical. Nobody actually believed someone who doesn't read their role PM is damaging the town, but there needed to be a reason to justify lynching players for this bad behavior.

Also, Goat has it right that in some specific cases, requesting replacement could be motivated by alignment.

[Simenon]

If we can't get a lynch on sirdan or pacman, I'd be willing to vote for Ythill as a last resort.

[Simenon]

I've played a few games where the idea to "compromise lynch" has been generated, but it is always shot down and a tacit compromise is reached anyway. I feel this will share that fate.

[Simenon]

Since when am I inactive?

[Simenon]

How do you define "bickering"?

I view the topic of their discussion as being very relevant.

[Simenon]

How about people vote instead of talking about intentions? If someone actually gets to L-1, who knows what will happen? Wouldn't that be more interesting than all this bickering about misunderstandings?

Why didn't we just lynch someone on the first page! That would have be even more interesting.

[Simenon]

Sarcasm doesn't feel as good when you misspell "been".

Anyway, I would like more time to talk about the choice between pacman and sirdan.

[Simenon]

Get. Over. What. Ending. All. Of. Your. Words. With. Periods. Is. Annoying. And. Doesn't. Reinforce. Your. Case.

What "case" are you referring to here?
~~
Of course, I'd be willing to lynch Sirdan. He's my #2.

[Simenon]

Ugh, I lost a big post due to stupid CPU.

What "case" are you referring to here?
~~
Of course, I'd be willing to lynch Sirdan. He's my #2.

I meant his reasoning to vote me, not really a case. Also, it wasn't really meant seriously. You should know to ignore comments like that.

Nice try, but I'm not going to ignore it when you throw crap around, whether you mean it as a joke or not.

[Simenon]

@ Sim & pacman: You've both stated suspicions of sirdan, please vote for him soon. We have four days left during which to prompt, receive, and analyze his claim. I doubt I am wrong about sirdan but it is possible. Just in case, I'd like to have time to seriously consider any claim he gives.

What?

It's tied 4 and 4. Why exactly is it necessary I join your wagon right now? I am much more convinced of my own.

[Simenon]

I think both should claim right about now. If you think it would help, certainly I'll switch, but I'm not sure I should right now.

[Simenon]

It's optimal for town to get one claim at a time because we might not need the second one and it may needlessly endanger our power roles. However, I do not feel that it is a huge disadvantage to get both claims at once. Not enough to get in a distracting argument over it anyway...

Obviously one will claim before the other. I'm not suggesting anything in unison.

The real question is, will both (or either) of our candidates actually claim @ L-3? And can we reasonably read anything into their refusal if they choose not to?

I'm predicting that if one does claim and the other doesn't, we'll finish off the latter. It's a huge advantage to claim at this point.

[Simenon]

I can't let this blatant role fishing slide. On the off chance that both are pro-town power roles, then that's two-for-one for scum. One would be sufficient, but two is just being greedy.

FoS - Simenon

uh

First of all, learn what role fishing is. Asking for a claim is not role fishing. Although I've had to make this argument twice in recent games, so perhaps the definition has changed.

Secondly, Ythill brought this up, and I responded. I do not think the two should claim together. My statement was badly written, but my point was that either of them should claim now.

[Simenon]

Plenty of scum fake claim doctor in games that don't happen to have doctors.

Just saying.

[Simenon]

Plenty of scum fake claim doctor in games that don't happen to have doctors.

Just saying.

Sure they do, but:

A) in a closed setup, they run the risk that there IS a doctor

Fake claiming Doctor gives you two advantages
1. If there is no other doctor, you get to fakeclaim a valuable but unprovable role. That is an ideal situation for a scum.
2. If there is a doctor, that doctor dies the next night, barring roleblocking.

B) I know you didn't say we should lynch a claimed doctor, so don't read that into this statement, but: There's no point in lynching a claimed doc on day one unless there's a counter-claim. (which you well know) (I'm putting this statement here more for nureins who hasn't unvoted)

It's certainly better than nothing. But we shouldn't put as much value on it as we would any other power role, for the reasons above.

[Simenon]

And personally, I think if the doctor ISN'T sirdan, and we DO have one, he should keep his mouth shut while the situation sorts out.

Agreed.

[Simenon]

Darox should claim.

[Simenon]

I find your analysis interesting, Ythill, because I see no greater phony in this thread than habitang. His posts, particularly his outbursts, are loading with a disturbing amount of drama, all of which seems pretty faked. I took issue with his later posts too, because they avoided taking a position on anything. And Pacman just seems off.

I haven't summarized my thoughts on habitang, but I certainly have written about him.

[Simenon]

I may have a reason as to why there was no scum kill.

Anyway, this looks bad for Ythill, sirdan, and Goat's replacement, I think. Hopefully more later.

[Simenon]

By the way, it seems fairly obvious to me that nuriens is reacting this way because he wants to avoid kuribo's vindication in any way possible.

[Simenon]

I still don't like the cop-out argument that Darox did nothing to establish himself as town.


NEITHER DID PACMAN.

Yeah. It's an excuse that allows lazy scumhunters and scum to be torpid rather than actually looking for something scummy.

[Simenon]

notice how nuriens drops the "nice but determined townie" attitude for a pure nasty one.

[Simenon]

Good luck to our mod finding two replacements in a 41 page game. :/

[Simenon]

So the players responsible for leading the town led it into a scumlynch and nothing changes.

I remember when players used to at least promise to take a new look at the game.

[Simenon]

Mod, that entire post should be removed.

Why?

[Simenon]

Sorry for not posting more. I've been very busy at work.

notice how nuriens drops the "nice but determined townie" attitude for a pure nasty one.

In the first place, he still seems quite reasonable to me. In the second place, Kuribo (on purpose or not) causes this kind of reaction in people. He attacks in a way that demands an aggressive response and leads to irritation. This is his playstyle, it would surpise me if he would deny this.
So it's hardly fair to throw suspicion on Nuriens for being affected by this playstyle. It's a null-tell.

FoS: Simenon

He's very blatantly lurking today, and this makes him my number one suspect, though not by a large margin.

Other suspects, in no particular order: nuriens, sirdan, nhat/darox2, goat. Mostly based on the analysis of interactions that other players have posted.

Oh please. If any other player had written the posts nuriens gets away with, that player would have been lynched long ago. Nuriens is just one crazed ramble. And you don't even know what lurking is.

[Simenon]

Cass, you're just wrong.

Oh please. If any other player had written the posts nuriens gets away with, that player would have been lynched long ago. Nuriens is just one crazed ramble. And you don't even know what lurking is.

That's just nonsense. Nuriens rambles, but I don't see strong scum-tells in there. The thing that makes me doubt him is his interactions with Habit/Pacman, not his posts. If they are so blatant, why don't you point out where exactly?

This is not a question of SCUMTELLS. Do not rip my posts out of context.

It is never best to avoid discussions.

Argument is the only tool we townies have besides our vote. It shouldn't be misused. But you can't refuse to use it all together.

And scum are lynched over semantics. This is a game about language.

Again, Do not rip my posts out of context. This was a response to someone that was GAME RELATED. If it's theory that manages to be GAME RELATED, you would think that it would be useful.

You mentioned length. How the fuck does me writing a short post have anything to do with lurking? I just manage to avoid writing like nuriens, but everyone should, because nuriens is a perfect example of what to avoid in mafia.

I'm really getting tired of this bullshit. You know *nothing* about my playstyle, so I don't want to here shit about my "methods" from you. Certainly not when you have no respect for any notion of fairness. It's a load of disingenuous shit that makes me tired of playing this game.

[Simenon]

Sirdan is the most frustrating player I've ever had to read.

[Simenon]

Notice how Cass still hasn't explained why the post she quoted is a poor one

in context

.

It's easy to assert things and not back them up. But we've been through this.

[Simenon]

Why thank you. Now, if you'd like to reply to my accusation of you a page back, I'd be completely satisfied. Or at least tell me that you've read it.

I've read it, but I'm not going to argue it, because you don't have the ability to argue effectively.

[Simenon]

Simenon: Do you have any changed feelings today? What do you think about the current situation and who are your suspects / what do you think about the people with votes on them?

No, I really don't. I'm dismayed that it seems very few players (I can only think of Goat and kuribo) are actually examining what the cause of the Darox lynch was. These players are trying to avoid responsibility at all costs. It's sad.

I'm close to voting nuriens.

[Simenon]

It ain't.

Vote nuriens

That's

L-1.

[Simenon]

That is unfortunate.

[Simenon]

VOTE CASS

(guys we should lynch cass

like right now)

[Simenon]

WHO DO I WANNA LYNCH

WE'LL FINISH THIS GAME IN A PINCH

LET'S GIVING LYNCHING TOWN A PASS

LET'S GO AHEAD AND LYNCH A CASS

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CASS LYNCH


GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CASS LYNCH

CASS LYNCH WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Simenon]

Roleblocker.

I blocked pac night one. That's why I said "this might not be doc" or something like that.
Cass night two.

Unvote

[Simenon]

And I was really hoping for 2/2.

Can we get a list of claims?

[Simenon]

oh fuck.

Vote Darox

sorry to rain on your parade buddy.

[Simenon]

It's kind of obvious what ecto is going to claim, isn't it? I mean, it all fits.

[Simenon]

whatever. Even if there are two protown roleblockers, we've got time to lynch someone else.

[Simenon]

I mean, even if we lynch two.

[Simenon]

"oh fuck, I missed Darox's claim."

[Simenon]

uhh no. Let's lynch one of me/Darox, have ecto shoot the other one, and then lynch ecto if necessary.

[Simenon]

Watcher and Tracker are so similar, it's really hard for me to imagine both being on the same side though.

Blue Jam Mafia

[Simenon]

Honestly, does it matter? Follow the Goat plan. I endorse it. I do wonder, though, why I would counter Darox when it would seem better for a scum just to claim townie. But that's all for posterity's sake.

And I don't think you need protecting Ecto.

[Simenon]

But Simenon and Darox always play like that.

My play in the first ten pages of this game is far more representative of my playstyle than the subsequent forty.

[Simenon]

I just want to note that I'll be willing to be lynched just so that we can follow the fucking plan.

[Simenon]

Ha. "Goebbels."

I thought nuriens was the best playing scum and it's a shame he lost after confusing the town that many times.