Micro 1013: IMoA [game over!]

[northsidegal]

greetings.

why is it that i only ever seem to replace into datisi's games these days? i guess they've just always got the best playerlists (or the only ones with people i know) and i get lucky in checking the replacement thread.

[northsidegal]

can you really call something infamous if it's neither "in" nor "famous"? although, if you're referring to that one thing from newbie games, i think that might be a slight misapplication.

on an unrelated note, it's been bothering me that i used to know who you are but i forgot, so i've been reviewing to try to figure it out. i realize i may have an unhealthy fixation on figuring out who people are (perhaps sometimes to the detriment of figuring out their alignment), but really it's just too much fun.

[northsidegal]

i've been reviewing and i remember that, but i'm pretty sure i also remember knowing you.

anyways, while we're talking, thoughts on this post?

Well there goes the dream...

did you want them to vote for you?

I was hoping for a lim before they posted!
We were 1 away!

[northsidegal]

anyways, while we're talking, thoughts on this post?

Are you asking because we weren't actually one away? Or because it is a questionable thing for town to be rooting for?

i asked because i had a few thoughts of my own reading that post, and i guess i thought it might be interesting or useful to hear someone else's.

@ta vera

, how experienced would you personally say you are at mafia? do you tend to get mislynched very often, or not frequently at all?

[northsidegal]

don't worry, i don't out people. i'm just interested in solving.

[northsidegal]

Nsg any thoughts on Sigmund tunneling your slot before rep in?

i've seen that style of play before, most frequently on MU (mafiauniverse). in my experience that sort of bravado

alone

isn't explicitly indicative of someone's alignment one way or the other, but my not unvoting when replacing in was a deliberate choice.

[northsidegal]

VOTE: Something Smart

i'm curious – why him?

[northsidegal]

for the record i think that this current discourse around SS is basically completely non-effective in sorting him (although it still might be useful for other people). i think that these sorts of accusations are basically autopilot for SS because in my experience some random thing fairly similar to this gets thrown at him like every single game.

[northsidegal]

VOTE: Moongrass

feeling somewhat directionless this game, although that may just be a function of me replacing in near the start of the game without there already being a lot of stuff to really dig into. anyways, that being said i think that this might be the best place to vote at the moment. both ta vera and VFP i'm leaning town on at the moment (although i am still reading up on meta tells there). iconeum, andres and SS are all practically null (like i said, i'm 100% of the belief that basically everything SS has said so far is so standard for him as either alignment that it's NAI). that leaves uneven, sigmund and moon.

sigmund has a deeply unpleasant playstyle but is probably not the most effective slot to vote, and between moongrass and uneven i think moon probably has more scum equity.

[northsidegal]

interesting, do you post new vcs instead of editing the placeholder post to avoid the "edited" tag being at the bottom? or is it just a random thing

p-edit:

Uneven is the towniest player in this game lol.

why?

[northsidegal]

Why PoE when you don't even have a read on Iconeum or Andres? Seems a bit hasty for you.

Their thought process is very original and lacking any kind of agenda. I am not concerned about them at all.

i'll answer your first line, but first i'd like to hear what you expect that my answer to it will be.

as to your second point, i feel as though you're taking a pretty strong stance relative to the body of evidence available when it comes to reading uneven. if someone were to confidently declare any player in this game either the scummiest or the towniest, i would guess that it could really only be one of my slot, sigmund's, or

maybe

ta vera's, so to declare that about uneven is a little surprising. do you really believe that at this point in the game scum needs to be explicitly posting with some kind of "agenda" rather than just blending in via asking questions?

interesting, do you post new vcs instead of editing the placeholder post to avoid the "edited" tag being at the bottom? or is it just a random thing

vote changes right after a vc are annoying, but vote changes right after a placeholder for a vc before i even managed to edit that vc in? not happening. have an updated vc instead.

gotcha. in that situation i like to just post the vc as it is when the placeholder goes down, then in my document with all the votecounts i start the next one with any of the changes that happen right after. although it's been a while since i've modded, so i guess i should say i used to do that.

[northsidegal]

Like how innocent and adorable is this post. Taking a joke into straight seriousness.

do you consider this strongly town-indicative? if so, why?

[northsidegal]

I have no idea why you're PoEing early unless you've decided that their meta says they are always VLA as town

i feel as though you're assuming that i've decided that you are today's lynch, or that i'm incapable of changing my mind. "PoEing" is just another word for looking at your reads and figuring out who the best vote is, and i'm not sure where the idea comes from that there can't be a best vote if some players are null or haven't contributed much, which seems to be the implication of what you're saying here. let me rephrase your question with the way that i'm interpreting it, which should hopefully give you some insight into why it's slightly baffling to me:

Why look at your current reads, determine the people you lean town on, have no information on, and have non-indicative or scum-indicative information on and then proceed to make a vote when you don't even have a read on Iconeum or Andres? Seems a bit hasty for you.

you're right in that, historically, i think that i've tended to have a preference towards "sitting back" and letting things play out for a while. thoughts on that: first, i think that i still basically am doing that. a lot of my thoughts / analysis i'm holding for now waiting for more discussion. i also think that i just wanted to make a vote here because i feel as though it's more difficult to sit back when nothing is going on, so i might need to at least start something to help myself form reads. i don't think i'm really being "hasty" or anything, and again i think you assume that what i'm saying here has some significant element of finality to it. do i come across as overtly confident to you?

[northsidegal]

do you really believe that at this point in the game scum needs to be explicitly posting with some kind of "agenda" rather than just blending in via asking questions?

If you think this is what I am doing why not attempt to interact with me? It is strange that both you and ta vera (at an earlier point) have both been happy to simply say 'UneveN is at/near the bottom of my list!' while making no moves towards sorting me.

to be clear, that question was a rebuttal of moongrass' reason to townread you, not an indication that i scumread you because you're "blending in via just asking questions" or anything.

in response to your question, in general, i'm much more of a believer that the best way to determine if someone is scum is simply to observe them rather than asking a long series of questions or anything. of course, i do ask people questions, but what i'm trying to say is that the idea that because i haven't asked someone any questions that i'm not attempting to sort them is a little off-base.

This reminds me of someone...who did turn out to be scum...

Who?

I'm not going to say but they know who they are.

bullshit

now you got caught out and can't answer something you faked in the first place?

VOTE: moongrass

i'll agree with you that that series of posts by moongrass was a little weird, but in general i think that scum basically never just makes up something like that.

[northsidegal]

i'll agree with you that that series of posts by moongrass was a little weird, but in general i think that scum basically never just makes up something like that.

I guess you didn't know who you were then. It reminded me of your defense as scum in TM2020 White flag.

no, i understood that you were referring to me and i even guessed that you were probably referencing that team mafia game. the point i was making about scum not tending to make stuff up about that is sort of regardless of anything actually having to do with you or what you were saying, though.

[northsidegal]

my calling it a weird series of posts also has nothing to do with whether or not i picked up on what you were saying. same with whether or not i agree with you on that other thing you were trying to get across to me.

[northsidegal]

-shrug-

what's the point of even bringing it up, and if you're going to bring it up, why bother with the whole "that person knows who they are"? just seems like a weird thing to do.

[northsidegal]

okay, i don't think that's a good argument for a lot of reasons but given that this line of discussion was never really about litigating it and i don't really care to anyways, i'm just going to leave it at that.

[northsidegal]

been busy, might be busy for the rest of today (irl, not today in-game)

I will say that I do like your push on nsg. I don't see scum doing that if nsg is town as they can just conveniently dispose of her N1 with no one questioning that NK.

i would say that you overestimate the amount of people in this playerlist who know who i am and how much the scumteam even ought to fear me, but given even sigmund seems to know me perhaps it's more people in the playerlist than i realized. (although that second part still might be overestimated, i am quite rusty.)

[northsidegal]

You have this image that I'm going to vote where's safe or care about a retaliation vote on me.

I care about a retaliation vote on you in coming days. You misunderstand my perspective. I don't care if I go down I care if I take town with me because they couldn't give good reasons for their vote and will be easy targets.

when did you go from VFP at the bottom of your readslist to "i care if i take town with me"? this is a strange thing to say, even in the hypothetical where you're just talking to people as if they're town (as a lot of people do). after all, if i thought someone were just voting me with literally no justification and they outright said they weren't going to give me one, i think that one of my first responses (and most people's first response) would be to make some sort of ruckus about how this is an obvious scum push.

even if

i were then to go on to try to appeal to the person and say "this will look bad for you if you do this with no reasons, even if you're scum you should give me a reason here", i wouldn't frame it as being worried about the person potentially being town and me maybe taking them down with me, i would frame it exactly like how i just did, because i would genuinely believe i were talking to scum and would thus want to engage on that level.

am i missing something here?

(also, i realize i've been responding mostly to you here for the past few posts as well as calling your posting "strange" pretty often – nothing specific meant by it, just so happened to turn out this way)

[northsidegal]

I'm having trouble following the thread of this game, that's definitely true. Not totally unhappy with my reads though. (Ta vera and nsg as townreads, Sigmund and Moongrass as townleans.)

again, not trying to harp on moongrass a ton, but why moongrass town? that's the only one here where i find it hard to see the perspective. nullread, maybe—townread, can't really see it personally at the moment.

[northsidegal]

nsg I know you've worked out who I am, and if that's the case you should know I'm town by now.

haven't actually, been a bit busy this week so haven't done as much sleuthing as i'd like. at this point i almost feel more invested in the game itself than in who people are (which i feel like is a rare feeling i should hold onto), but i put a decent amount of stock into self-meta claims similar to this, so i'll get back to it.


as an aside, i know is that this might mean little coming from me when it's something being leveled at me in the first place, but from an objective standpoint i think that post 193 never happens if me and ta vera are partnered. i only bring this up because it's something i sort of made a little note of when she posted it – i just thought to myself "huh, if i saw that interaction take place between two other people they probably would never be scum together".

[northsidegal]

if i thought someone were just voting me with literally no justification and they outright said they weren't going to give me one, i think that one of my first responses (and most people's first response) would be to make some sort of ruckus about how this is an obvious scum push.

That was in my first retaliation to his push on me, I told him that based on his reasoning he has no good reason to vote me. My later responses were addressing his argument that he doesn't need a reason to vote someone.

sorry, i don't really believe you and "i care about misreading people" doesn't really do it for me as a justification.

i find it difficult to look at the progression of someone being at the bottom of your readslist and you voting that person, to that person saying that they're going to vote you with no reason, to you voting someone else entirely, saying that you don't want to mislynch town so you'd really like reasons, and basically walking away from the conversation. i think that even the absolute most charitable players don't really tend to have progressions like that as town.

now, i could be wrong, but again i have to say it just makes it difficult for me to believe that you actually scumread VFP. instead, it seems more likely that you just wanted to disengage and vote for the easier ico wagon, for which support was building.

[northsidegal]

i get that you're having fun playing a character on an alt. i've done that myself fairly often. i'd just appreciate if you remembered that, if you're town, there are other people in the game trying to win who in part rely on you cooperating. and, even if you're scum, there's already one person who left this game in an emotional rage from your antics.

i'm not trying to come across as preachy (although i probably am), i just care about winning. i'm hope you can understand that.

[northsidegal]

I think Ta, SS, and Andre is a decent lim pool.

I would replace Andresvmb with Iconeum here. And outside of NorwegianboyEE's exit northsidegal has not felt particularly towny to me but I am willing to trust Sigmund on this matter at this time.

it's an interesting turn of phrase here to say that willing to trust sigmund on the matter. do you mean that you agree with his logic on norwee being town, or that you don't really see it yourself but you're agreeing because you think sigmund is town and trust his judgment? it's possible i'm reading into stuff too much here, but i'm just interested to hear a bit more of your thought process.

is your reason for scumreading ta vera mainly what you brought up in 453?

[northsidegal]

It is both what I brought up there and that she seemed frustrated that I was being townread in a way that mafia have before. Like the town is 'letting me' skate by through the parts of the game where I 'should' be miselimable and allowing me to potentially reach the part of the game where I can be semi-useful.

could you point to posts where you think this is happening?

[northsidegal]

Also I think 193 is an emulated behaviour for alt reasons but that is not alignment indicative.

what do you mean when you say "emulated behavior"? and, just to be clear, i'm not saying that post is alignment indicative, i'm just saying that it's non-associative-indicative.

i get that you're having fun playing a character on an alt. i've done that myself fairly often. i'd just appreciate if you remembered that, if you're town, there are other people in the game trying to win who in part rely on you cooperating. and, even if you're scum, there's already one person who left this game in an emotional rage from your antics.

i'm not trying to come across as preachy (although i probably am), i just care about winning. i'm hope you can understand that.

pls tell me more

does it bother you at all that you essentially harassed someone out of the game? even if you think he was overreacting, was there any self-reflection over whether or not you maybe went too far?

I have heard NSG is a legendary solver of puzzles

a peerless seer whose wise gaze can pierce the thickest of clouds.

I am waiting for her to deliver the scumbags on a plate so I may cut them apart.

i appreciate the confidence, but i am quite rusty. if you truly are that confident in me, i feel as though i've already posted a lot to engage with.

[northsidegal]

I understand.

[northsidegal]

what do you mean when you say "emulated behavior"? and, just to be clear, i'm not saying that post is alignment indicative, i'm just saying that it's non-associative-indicative.

I mean that I believe that post to be a behaviour that ta vera has observed other alts engaging in and deployed it here to obscure herself. I do not believe it to be non-associative indicative as even if she is your partner a) that does not necessarily mean she has revealed her identity to you and b) there are other players in the game.

okay, i don't agree. i think that regardless of whether or not ta vera is scum that post was sincere, and i think that my reasons to think that are pretty decent. i suppose i should elaborate on why i think it's non-associative indicative, though: it's not about whether or not ta vera would have told me who she is privately, which i agree is unlikely. i think just the more salient point is that if ta vera were scum and i were also scum, she either would not have made the post at all because she wouldn't expect me to actually try to figure out who she was (given that that sort of thing is vaguely town-adjacent to meta-ing people, something scum doesn't really need to do), or if she did make it she would have made it in the scum PT. i'm not sure if i have a great non-intuitive justification for that second point—it's really just the sort of thing that i feel would get said in the scum PT, especially given that revealing your partner's identity could have ramifications for people's reads and thus would fall under the purview of scum strategy, again pointing towards it being discussed in the PT.

do you have a specific reason to believe that that post was just a copy of observations of how other alts behave, or is it just working backwards from already thinking that ta vera is scum?

[northsidegal]

do you have a specific reason to believe that that post was just a copy of observations of how other alts behave, or is it just working backwards from already thinking that ta vera is scum?

Huh? It was working backwards from the fact that ta vera is an alt, not scum. I already stated that I do not believe it to be alignment indicative. I think the post was sincere in that ta vera is indeed trying to hide her identity and would prefer not to be outed, but the asking you not to if discovered and such is a behaviour of some alts that I believe she has observed as I have also observed it.

hm. i think i may be a little confused here over the connotations of "emulated behavior" and "a behaviour that ta vera has observed other alts engaging in and deployed it here to obscure herself".

when you say that it's a behavior of some alts that you believe she has observed, what conclusion exactly do you draw / do you think that i should draw from that? i feel as though i'm missing something here.

does any1 really care what frog-girl's secret identity is.

it's really more about the meta-conversation, although i suppose the conversation really isn't all that important.

[northsidegal]

sure, i agree it's NAI. i just think the specific context in which it was posted is evidence against a me/her team, which i brought up only because i noted it at the time it was posted.

let's leave it at that.

[northsidegal]

what's your coalition at this stage guys

funnily enough i think that i agree mostly with 543, i think mine is {nsg, uneven, ta vera, SS, sigmund}

uneven is iffy but i'm sort of trusting moon on it, SS is mostly null but on the towny side of null. could maybe sub one of them with VFP but i'm sort of doubtful and from what i've reviewed VFP has a better scumgame than i initially expected (no offense or anything, just what i expected based on join date)

[northsidegal]

what's your coalition at this stage

{UneveN, Sigmund, Moongrass, VFP, Andresvmb}

andres is a bit of a surprising inclusion. i'd also be interested in hearing your reasons for townreading moongrass.

[northsidegal]

andres is a bit of a surprising inclusion.

I liked his content with regards to Iconeum.

fair. i can even see where you're coming from and maybe even agree, actually.

i'd also be interested in hearing your reasons for townreading moongrass.

Willing to solo-pilot the game, hasn't crashed.

a little more dubious, i think.

[northsidegal]

i don't townread ta vera incredibly strongly, i think it just so happens that a lot of my posting has been in defense of her. i do lean town on her though, so i'll try to compile some reasons.

[northsidegal]

funnily enough i think that i agree mostly with 543, i think mine is {nsg, uneven, ta vera, SS, sigmund}

NSG I’m not going to lie - I think this is somewhat of a crappy coalition. I don’t know that I would have S_S as high as you do, or nearly enough to include in a “coalition”. And I’m also a bit confused as to why you seem so intent to misread some of my thinking, but that’s a bit self-centered I suppose.

could you elaborate on what you mean by / where you see instances of my misreading your thinking?

[northsidegal]

In post 648, UneveN wrote:
In post 647, northsidegal wrote:
andres is a bit of a surprising inclusion.

I liked his content with regards to Iconeum.

fair. i can even see where you're coming from and maybe even agree, actually.

You agree with how I’m looking at Iconeum, but you’re surprised another player might include me in their Town pool? I just didn’t get that at all.

you're confusing the chronology there. i was confused uneven included you, uneven gave the reason, then i said that i agreed that your progression on iconeum was good. this is also—to my memory—the only instance that i've even really talked about you or your contributions, so i don't think there's anything else you could possibly be referring to in 660 when you say i thought your contributions were good but not worthy of being townread than this.

[northsidegal]

you're confusing the chronology there. i was confused uneven included you, uneven gave the reason, then i said that i agreed that your progression on iconeum was good. this is also—to my memory—the only instance that i've even really talked about you or your contributions, so i don't think there's anything else you could possibly be referring to in 660 when you say i thought your contributions were good but not worthy of being townread than this.

Perhaps that me reading backwards when catching up. But I’ll say this - I think you should be able to read me properly here. Do you think I’m Scum?

let me answer your question with a few questions, hopefully this isn't annoying.

do you have some unique confidence that i should be able to read you, or is that more of a general statement of faith in my ability (as well as my alignment)? if it's the first, why? as i said elsewhere, i think you said we played together before but i can't seem to recall or find whatever game that might have been.

do you think that i scumread you?

do you think that you have objectively played in a towny manner this game or have otherwise specifically played your towngame? if so, what parts of your play this game so far characterizes that?

[northsidegal]

let me answer your question with a few questions, hopefully this isn't annoying.

do you have some unique confidence that i should be able to read you, or is that more of a general statement of faith in my ability (as well as my alignment)? if it's the first, why? as i said elsewhere, i think you said we played together before but i can't seem to recall or find whatever game that might have been.

do you think that i scumread you?

We played a game back in 2018 that I distinctly remember. Here: https://forum.mafia451.com/t/chosen-gam ... =andresvmb. You were somewhat lurky but read me correctly.

And yes, from how you’ve approached me, I think you SR me. I would rather you just stated it either way.

ah, i realized earlier that we had played on 451 but i guess it then slipped my mind.

i know you, but only as a moderator.

yeah, i guess i'm getting old. it's weird, i still feel like a newbie but now sometimes i'm among the oldest players in a playerlist, and i would be the equivalent of a 2013-er when i joined in 2017 (if my math is right). weird.

[northsidegal]

-shrug-

okay.

[northsidegal]

I mostly joined because of nsg, hi nsg!

hello!

it almost feels like this game is a birthday present to me or something, the amount of people who know me in it and who have also decided to conceal their identity such that i can enjoy trying to figure out who they are. it's fun, it seems rare these days for me to know a lot of people in a playerlist.

as to you sheeping me, i'd prefer for you to just follow what you think is best.

[northsidegal]

However, if nsg is strongly convinced on moongrass, I'm happy to sheep her D1 as I generally think she has a better read-rate than I do

She doesn't actually think I'm scum and will most likely move her vote elsewhere by day end.

Lets say you're right. Who is Sigmund's buddy?

pretty sure i know who you are now, but unfortunately i'd still slow down on you saying i don't scumread you. my reads were kind of thrown up in the air yesterday but i'm still not really convinced on you being town.

(by the way, i didn't need the hint! the timezones were enough)

[northsidegal]

my computer keeps crashing so i'm gonna type this sort of fast without really taking the time to quote anything directly to respond to sang froid scumreading sigmund

i townread sigmund primarily because i have a decently strong conviction that, were sigmund to be scum, he would be more actively pushing towards a scum win condition. you might think that he already his through whatever he's doing, the vote switching and etc., but i think that it would be a lot more "obvious" if he were scum. as it is now, i don't think sigmund is really "hardpushing" anyone, moreso kind of mulling around, seemingly bored – were he scum, i think that an actual, non-meme hard push would be being made on someone who the scumteam wanted dead. i don't think that we're seeing that, and based on my mental model of sigmund and in general of players like him, i think that that's town indicative.

just wanted to give my reasons

p-edit haha wow so many posts

[northsidegal]

The troublesome thing is that there’s no substance or thought process behind his pushes,

I think, and that’s further encouraged by the fact that when called on that he cannot provide it. Perhaps he’s just unwilling to, but I think it’s because there is nothing behind it.

He’s a lazy scumplayer

who wants to get by on being toneread as town.

My computer keeps crashing which is really annoying so I'll keep it short - I think the bolded claims are just false.

[northsidegal]

I think there hasn't been a lot of elaboration, but the votes have followed something of a pattern of mostly staying within one PoE.

I think that I'm a lazy scumplayer, and that sig's play doesn't resemble that or any other lazy scumplayer. I think sig is a high effort scumplayer and sort of a lazy town player.

I think sig has done some outrageous stuff, but is probably a townie. I also think that enough has been said about that outrageous stuff, and the rest is best left to postgame.

[northsidegal]

Btw can you ask dats for like a 24 hour extension just to see if we can get it

[northsidegal]

Btw can you ask dats for like a 24 hour extension just to see if we can get it

Who was that directed at nsg? That read like a post for a PT.

Directed at sang. PT slips as a hypothesis should basically always be discarded, as I said earlier in my PT.

[northsidegal]

I’m generally opposed to extensions on principle, I think they’re unfair on the scumteam in the vast majority of cases and don’t like to support them regardless of alignment.

Fair, just figured I'd ask.

[northsidegal]

I’m not seeing it yet, but I’ll take another look. I do have another 10 pages of catch up left too.

I think there’s a mistake you’re making which is WIM vs effort. I think Sigmund is probably a high WIM player regardless of alignment. I think you can make a lot of posts as scum and give the impression of activity while still being lazy in making a consistent effort with your thought processes etc, trusting that the WIM you exhibit will be misread as towniness.

I was going to quote some posts, but I think I will actually do it tomorrow.

For now, I actually don't consider sig a high WIM player this game - I think he's been listless and probably bored. Based on that, I think that - even absent any meta - it makes sense based on the play sig has displayed so far to think that, were sig to be scum this game he would probably be making more of his own fun. Do you get what I mean?

[northsidegal]

nsg, if I can’t sell you on Sigmund by EoD would you be willing to compromise on uneven?

Don't think so, uneven gets until at least tomorrow for me.

[northsidegal]

Moon, question on your progression here - did you townread me when you explained to me why you thought uneven was the towniest in the game?

[northsidegal]

Okay, moon. Say we're both town, and sig is town, Andres is maybe town, and uneven is town. Let's just say that's the case. Who's scum?

[northsidegal]

Is that why you said the same thing to ta vera?

[northsidegal]

I understood what you meant, I just wasn't sure if I agreed with the read.

gosh, you keep underestimating me

[northsidegal]

i used to drink copious, probably unhealthy amounts of tea, but lately ever since i got this fancy coffee maker i've been drinking copious, probably unhealthy amounts of coffee. it's pretty good!

[northsidegal]

by the way, i drink it for the taste, not to wake up or for the caffeine or anything

[northsidegal]

dang, less than a page in a whole day

[northsidegal]

I was prodded

VOTE: Something Smart

I think SS is just scum here. There's.anough players to suspect SS as well so let's see how much resistance there is here.

what happened to the ta vera read?

[northsidegal]

I also think this is nsg's scum meta,

you're wrong

I have knowledge of a masonry existing in this game, now it would be hugely unbalanced if there were also a neighbor PT with two town players in it because once the neighbors townread each other it's effectively a double masonry in the game with 4 pseudo confirmed town. Therefore, in the name of balance it's likely that one of the two neighbors is scum

and if it were Andre they would not have claimed their neighbor because if we did elim nsg at some point down the track it would mean Andre's head when the masonry is discovered.

take this from an nrg reviewer, you're wrong about neighborhood balance. a neighborhood where they both townread each other is nothing close to a masonry - the strength in a masonry is mostly the confirmed aspect, not the communication aspect. two people separately informed the other is town is way closer in balance to a masonry than a mutual townread hood.

for the record though, it's not impossible that setup wise one of the neighbors is scum. given a traffic analyst in this setup, the pieces would sort of start to slot into place.

also, the bolded is actually just nonsense, sorry.

[northsidegal]

i think scum informed of a masonry seems more likely than town informed?

[northsidegal]

{moon, sang, vfp} is i think my primary lynchpool, final answer for today

[northsidegal]

@moon, you never answered this:

Updated:

Uneven
Ta vera
Nsg
SS
Sigmund
Ico
Andre's
VFP.

it's unlikely Sigmund is partnered with Ico.
Andres/Ico could be interesting but I'm not sure Ico unvotes me as scum.

that was quick! why doesn't what you were just scum reading me apply anymore?

[northsidegal]

next time literally anyone is online and sees this let me know, i think there's a lot to discuss

[northsidegal]

next time literally anyone is online and sees this let me know, i think there's a lot to discuss

what's up?

i think that moon basically claimed scum last page, but i don't want to harp too much on that to the detriment of other topics.

what does your lynchpool look like right now, and how much does it intersect with {moon, sang, VFP}?

{moon, sang, vfp} is i think my primary lynchpool, final answer for today

Thank you for claiming scum.

i might not win this fight and get you lynched today, but you

certainly

will not win it.

[northsidegal]

please answer 952.

[northsidegal]

Something that I've noticed relatively frequently when looking back on a lot of my completed games is that, very early on in the game, a lot of the questions that I ask tend to be towards scum members. That isn't some brag—I'm not talking about my reads or my suspicions, just my outright questions about stuff that I don't understand. More often than not, when people say things which seem really odd to me, I tend to just write it off as different thought processes. To be clear, I think this is a good habit! It probably is more likely that someone just thinks differently than you than that person being scum. That being said, I think that sometimes I might go too far, or be too lenient—looking back on those games, if I were to give myself some threshold for stuff like that, I would've caught a lot of scum.

Moon, I know that as a player you have a tendency to kind of be all over the place, but I think that you have more than passed that threshold this game, and I think that it would be a disservice to the time I've spent reviewing and the things I've noticed if I didn't act on that.

Your progression on ta vera is nonsensical. You didn't answer 545 then and you can't answer 952 now because you have no answer. This progression

very closely resembles

one which is completely fabricated:

Spoiler:

VOTE: ta vera

Waiting on your response. You seem more interested in people's reads on you than your reads on them which seems like you're not interested in solving. I thought your push onto me was town indicative however you have just sat there happily in my blind spot shading me at each opportunity rather than trying to figure out my alignment. I found it annoying, now I find it scummy.

if everyone votes norwegianboy i can figure out who his partner is by what sound he makes when he breaks

could you say something about me please?

Yeah I was just skimming her ISO. It seems fine, I'm literally stumped with the lack of content to narrow down teams.

VOTE: VFP

Didn't mean to quote there.

Updated:

Uneven
Ta vera
Nsg
SS
Sigmund
Ico
Andre's
VFP.

it's unlikely Sigmund is partnered with Ico.
Andres/Ico could be interesting but I'm not sure Ico unvotes me as scum.

Your progression on VFP was similar. I'm just going to quote myself here because I don't think that I could say it better than I did then, and I don't think that you actually really answered anything that I said:

Spoiler:

You have this image that I'm going to vote where's safe or care about a retaliation vote on me.

I care about a retaliation vote on you in coming days. You misunderstand my perspective. I don't care if I go down I care if I take town with me because they couldn't give good reasons for their vote and will be easy targets.

when did you go from VFP at the bottom of your readslist to "i care if i take town with me"? this is a strange thing to say, even in the hypothetical where you're just talking to people as if they're town (as a lot of people do). after all, if i thought someone were just voting me with literally no justification and they outright said they weren't going to give me one, i think that one of my first responses (and most people's first response) would be to make some sort of ruckus about how this is an obvious scum push.

even if

i were then to go on to try to appeal to the person and say "this will look bad for you if you do this with no reasons, even if you're scum you should give me a reason here", i wouldn't frame it as being worried about the person potentially being town and me maybe taking them down with me, i would frame it exactly like how i just did, because i would genuinely believe i were talking to scum and would thus want to engage on that level.

am i missing something here?

(also, i realize i've been responding mostly to you here for the past few posts as well as calling your posting "strange" pretty often – nothing specific meant by it, just so happened to turn out this way)

if i thought someone were just voting me with literally no justification and they outright said they weren't going to give me one, i think that one of my first responses (and most people's first response) would be to make some sort of ruckus about how this is an obvious scum push.

That was in my first retaliation to his push on me, I told him that based on his reasoning he has no good reason to vote me. My later responses were addressing his argument that he doesn't need a reason to vote someone.

sorry, i don't really believe you and "i care about misreading people" doesn't really do it for me as a justification.

i find it difficult to look at the progression of someone being at the bottom of your readslist and you voting that person, to that person saying that they're going to vote you with no reason, to you voting someone else entirely, saying that you don't want to mislynch town so you'd really like reasons, and basically walking away from the conversation. i think that even the absolute most charitable players don't really tend to have progressions like that as town.

now, i could be wrong, but again i have to say it just makes it difficult for me to believe that you actually scumread VFP. instead, it seems more likely that you just wanted to disengage and vote for the easier ico wagon, for which support was building.

VFP was at the bottom of your readslist, you were voting him, he voted you back and said that he didn't need to give you any reason for it, and then you proceeded to vote someone else, and when responding to him said that you only wanted reasons so that you didn't take town down with you.

Even for a very spontaneous player

, that's a difficult progression to believe, especially for someone who displays the behavior that you're displaying here when you seem to have a scumread.

[northsidegal]

ngl but wouldnt it make more sense for scum to be informed of the existence of a masonry than town to be informed of the existence of a masonry

this is exactly what i'm saying.

[northsidegal]

They're normal, but frowned upon. They've happened in the past, though. It's not what's happening this game, at least with my neighborhood.

[northsidegal]

Fine I'll directly claim I am a Mason because you people don't know how to add 1 + 1. Can we focus on killing nsg or Andre now?

i don't believe that you actually believe that i'm scum. you pointed something out to me earlier in the game that nobody would ever point out if they thought the person they were talking to were scum. also, none of these reasons make any sense at all:

I actually think that out of the two nsg is more likely to be scum based on her approach to townreading Andre vs Andre's interactions with her. I also think this is nsg's scum meta, however I'm aware that is the weak part of my read considering it's 2 year old meta.

I have knowledge of a masonry existing in this game, now it would be hugely unbalanced if there were also a neighbor PT with two town players in it because once the neighbors townread each other it's effectively a double masonry in the game with 4 pseudo confirmed town. Therefore, in the name of balance it's likely that one of the two neighbors is scum and if it were Andre they would not have claimed their neighbor because if we did elim nsg at some point down the track it would mean Andre's head when the masonry is discovered.

If it were Andre, NSG would have likely been on board with his lim.

[northsidegal]

I don't even think this flips scum I'm just bored and its a mason claim so whatever

if this flips scum tho I'm going to laugh really hard

you have an obligation to play to your win condition as town. i actually can't believe that i defended you despite everything you've done this game, made the argument that you would be playing more as scum and wouldn't be as lazy, and now you're willingly voting someone you

know

, know for a fact isn't scum just because you're bored. despite everything i was under the impression that you were still actually at least trying to play the game.

[northsidegal]

like, holy shit that makes me angry. sigmund i think that you've done this exact same thing before to me, and i bet you i could even find the game if you gave me ten minutes. this

exact same situation

where you just shitvote me because "lol idk i'm just lazy". how about you play the game that you signed up for? how about you put in an ounce of the effort that the other players in the town are putting in to actually win the game, instead of voting someone you know for a fact is town just because?

[northsidegal]

If you are town nsg, please consider if Andre could be scum as that's the only way I could believe you're town at this point.

if you believe that either one of me or andres is scum, i don't see how we've gotten from andres being forced to claim to the situation now where you've claimed mason to try to redirect an entire wagon onto me with less than 12 hours left in the day. explain that to me?

also, quote where i've ever said that andres can't be scum.

[northsidegal]

Lmfao. Well at least this game is fun now. I guess you're right nsg. I won't win today, but you won't win tomorrow.

i hate to pull an RC but if you're town you've literally brought this on yourself by choosing to throw. it's on you.

[northsidegal]

its probly 2 town masons
2 town neighbors
3 VTs
2 mafia with 1 having some eavesdrop ability to look into town hoods

the seutp follows normal rules, there isn't an eavesdropper.

[northsidegal]

setup information:

~ this is a theme game. however, it will follow all normal rules.

~ any and all private topics will be open at all times.
~ the mafia is able to multitask by default.
~ sample vanilla townie role pm:

Spoiler:

vanilla townie

welcome,

playername

, to Micro 1013: IMoA! you are a

vanilla townie

.

role abilities:

~ you have no special abilities.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

[northsidegal]

VOTE: VFP

[northsidegal]

Why?

[northsidegal]

i don't believe that you actually believe that i'm scum. you pointed something out to me earlier in the game that nobody would ever point out if they thought the person they were talking to were scum. also, none of these reasons make any sense at all:

I pointed it out as a reaction test and told my Mason friend to watch you if I died N1.

Also, this isn't what I'm talking about -- I'm not pointing out a crumb about you supposedly being a mason (which you never pointed out to me), i'm talking about a crumb of another player's which you pointed out to me, which nobody would ever do to someone they believe could be scum.

[northsidegal]

What reasons of Moon's are you sheeping, or are you just following (to put it plainly) with no reasons?

[northsidegal]

personally, whenever i say that i'm sheeping someone, i typically mean that i'm agreeing with their reasoning. for instance, if someone made a case on why Mathdino is town, i might say "i'm sheeping him on mathdino being town" to imply that i agree with the case. i understand some people use it differently, though.

On a personal level, I would appreciate if you would take the effort to look for the harder answers rather than taking the "easier answer". I am town, and I care about winning. Thus, it kind of distresses me to see people who seemingly don't, especially when that becomes directed at me, given that I know that I'm town.

[northsidegal]

To clarify this, if nsg had gone ahead with the 1v1 on Moongrass, I probably would have sided with Moongrass against her.

this is just a point of personal curiosity – why?

[northsidegal]

i'd still like to know, but if it's game relevant or something, could you maybe PM it to datisi or put it in a personal PT or something? you don't have to (i get it's a little bit of a hassle), i just really am curious because it's somewhat striking to me.

[northsidegal]

-shrug-

it's what you're thinking now, so i just imagine you'd be able to give a better picture of your thought process now rather than thinking back on it after however long the game takes to finish, or for both of us to be in the dead thread.

[northsidegal]

i'm curious to hear why you think that i could be scum

[northsidegal]

like because let me give you an idea of things from my perspective:

i correctly identify a lot of weird manufactured trajectories and partner tells coming from moongrass throughout the game

i am—and i honestly hate to harp on this, much less bring it up, but it's true—objectively playing to my town meta in an incredibly strong way

moongrass' reasons for thinking that i'm scum are, even charitably, not very sensical, and i challenge anyone to disagree with me on this, because i would honestly like to hear an explanation, which nobody seems to have provided or be able to


p-edit: we've played a decent amount together, i'm certain. one of my most recent games was a normal which i think was also modded by datisi, you were scum

[northsidegal]

did you think she was fake angry at me

In 992? I think she was real angry, but it's not out of the question for her to be real angry there as scum.

on a player meta-level it actually is, but again i don't really care to become boon and harp on this a ton

[northsidegal]

also, for the record, this is part of why i find it unbelievable that moon thinks that i'm scum. i know that from an outside perspective this might just seem self-serving, or just a product of my being angry, but being as objective as i possibly can, it still makes little sense. moongrass' most recent example of my being scum is

team mafia 2020 white flag

. anyone with

any

familiarity with that game would

never

confuse my play here for my play there. it's just not possible.

[northsidegal]

also, for the record, this is part of why i find it unbelievable that moon thinks that i'm scum. i know that from an outside perspective this might just seem self-serving, or just a product of my being angry, but being as objective as i possibly can, it still makes little sense. moongrass' most recent example of my being scum is

team mafia 2020 white flag

. anyone with

any

familiarity with that game would

never

confuse my play here for my play there. it's just not possible.

this reads town af.

do you think moon is fake claiming mason here?

thats kind of a later problem not a day 1 problem isn't it?

yeah, it's a really bad situation made even worse by how close we are to deadline. a fake mason claim is an unlikely play from scum, but there are still a lot of inconsistencies with the idea that moon is a mason that makes me not confident in saying that she is. it's why i'm voting VFP right now, i think that even if i didn't believe moon it's something that you have to at least give a night.

[northsidegal]

like because let me give you an idea of things from my perspective:

i correctly identify a lot of weird manufactured trajectories and partner tells coming from moongrass throughout the game

i am—and i honestly hate to harp on this, much less bring it up, but it's true—objectively playing to my town meta in an incredibly strong way

moongrass' reasons for thinking that i'm scum are, even charitably, not very sensical, and i challenge anyone to disagree with me on this, because i would honestly like to hear an explanation, which nobody seems to have provided or be able to


p-edit: we've played a decent amount together, i'm certain. one of my most recent games was a normal which i think was also modded by datisi, you were scum

i actually do want to keep harping on this because i can't stay awake for much longer so i just want to be incredibly clear

there seems to be a decent amount of will for my lynch but as of yet i haven't seen a single

actual reason

other than "i am blindly following the person who claimed mason"

[northsidegal]

I also think this is nsg's scum meta,

you're wrong

I have knowledge of a masonry existing in this game, now it would be hugely unbalanced if there were also a neighbor PT with two town players in it because once the neighbors townread each other it's effectively a double masonry in the game with 4 pseudo confirmed town. Therefore, in the name of balance it's likely that one of the two neighbors is scum

and if it were Andre they would not have claimed their neighbor because if we did elim nsg at some point down the track it would mean Andre's head when the masonry is discovered.

take this from an nrg reviewer, you're wrong about neighborhood balance. a neighborhood where they both townread each other is nothing close to a masonry - the strength in a masonry is mostly the confirmed aspect, not the communication aspect. two people separately informed the other is town is way closer in balance to a masonry than a mutual townread hood.

for the record though, it's not impossible that setup wise one of the neighbors is scum. given a traffic analyst in this setup, the pieces would sort of start to slot into place.

also, the bolded is actually just nonsense, sorry.

moongrass is wrong about my scum meta

she's wrong about the setup balance

whatever point was in bold makes no sense whatsoever


i even quite plainly state in this post that i think that it's possible, setup wise, that one of the neighbors would be scum, but moon seems to somehow think that i think it's impossible. i don't think that andres is scum, but it's not because of random setup spec. it's primarily because i agreed with uneven that his progression on iconeum was good, as well as various reactions he's had both in the main thread and in our neighborhood to when i've indicated that i might scumread him, many of which seemed non-scum-indicative to me. i find that a sort of surprise at being scumread and appeal to previous games played together has a tendency to be town indicative.

[northsidegal]

why do you want to kill VFP?

i am town, you are town. moon is claiming mason. of the people remaining, i think that VFP is the most scum indicative of the bunch. i could also be convinced on iconeum, but my preference would be VFP.

[northsidegal]

if i were RC i might just try to lynch moon anyways. unfortunately, i'm not RC.

[northsidegal]

why not sang froid?

i guess if i have to be the one to say it.

moon seems to have indicated that sang froid is her partner.

[northsidegal]

Like what do you think I was doing?

i consider it a towntell (i.e. more likely to come from town than scum), but here's the key point: there

are

plausible narratives for doing what you did as scum, but i

don't

really see a plausible narrative for doing what you did if there was any chance you thought that i was scum.

[northsidegal]

-shrug-

sigmund asked why not sang, and i gave the reason from my perspective. you might be right. if i'm wrong then it's unfortunate that i'm not voting VFP instead of sang.

[northsidegal]

or, the other way around.

[northsidegal]

Like what do you think I was doing?

i consider it a towntell (i.e. more likely to come from town than scum), but here's the key point: there

are

plausible narratives for doing what you did as scum, but i

don't

really see a plausible narrative for doing what you did if there was any chance you thought that i was scum.

So the play makes no sense. it doesn't mean I'm scum, my actions weren't sensical as any alignment. I was trying to test two things - if you'd catch it and what you did either way. I then picked you for scum because you didn't seem to get it or read me based on it, and then I left it to pursue other people because you weren't a D1 lim anyway.

if something has a non-plausible explanation as town and a plausible explanation as scum, it makes sense to treat it as a scumtell. i don't know what else to say about that. i even like to think that i consider a lot of possibilities and keep my mind pretty open to plausible explanations for things from other people's perspectives.

i truly, honestly mean no disrespect when i say this – if you are town then i would appreciate, on a personal level, if you would try to avoid situations where your play is not sensical as any alignment.

Fake claiming mason. I mean really? I'm going to be really annoyed if I was right and you all made me change my mind.

you're not.

and, just to reiterate, this is all 100% on you. andres had claimed and had 4 people on him, you're the one who claimed to try to shift an entire wagon onto me with less than 12 hours left despite seemingly also being okay with andres.

[northsidegal]

No I claimed to stop you trying to sell me as scum for having info on town roles. You literally challenged me to lim you, I made my case for you over Andre based on mechanics and now you're upset I tried as if I did it for no reason whatsoever. I still don't understand your townread on Andre or why you were determined I was scum the whole day.

It was

your choice

to reveal information regarding masons. You claimed at approximately L-4. I never challenged you to eliminate me, I told you that you wouldn't succeed in trying to do so. What about the case for me over andre is "based on mechanics"?

I explained a little of my townread on andres in 1046, and have been explaining my scumread on you the entire day.

a plausible explanation as scum, it makes sense to treat it as a scumtell

It didn't have a plausible explanation as scum.

plausible explanations: you, being scum and looking out for crumbs, notice the crumb. in an effort to remain natural and play to your towngame, you point it out as a reason for a townread, with the thought that this is what you'd do if you were town. after all, it doesn't really harm you that much to reveal it to a townie. alternatively, you want to be able to point back to it the next day and say "i noticed this and this was why i townread that player".

likely? not the point. plausible? yes. to me, certainly more plausible than pointing out a crumb to someone you think could be scum.

[northsidegal]

have been explaining my scumread on you the entire day.

That's an exaggeration, you've said one post was weird and then asked me about my progression.

fair, it's an exaggeration to say that i've been explaining it the entire day, but it has been explained in a decently detailed manner, i'd say, if you would read some of my more recent posts.

Why do you seem mad enough that you wish you were RC to policy lim me? Like I'm not intentionally throwing the game for lols. I'm doing my best to work it out. It's actually fortunate you aren't RC for your sake, not mine.

i wouldn't say that i'm mad. it always bothers me to be scumread for no real reason. the RC comment was to say that i still genuinely can see a world in which you're scum, but on principle i'm not voting you and there's something of a bad feeling in that. it has nothing to do with "policy", i always play to wincon.

[northsidegal]

Yeah there's no reason for us to vote outside of the neibours with a Mason claim. Otherwise town effectively have 2 sets of masons, which I don't buy.

neighbors are not effectively masons.

[northsidegal]

Yeah there's no reason for us to vote outside of the neibours with a Mason claim. Otherwise town effectively have 2 sets of masons, which I don't buy.

neighbors are not effectively masons.

If both are town they really can be.
The second you can read the other as town you are basically masons.

Do you town read Andre?

no, they're not. the strength in masons comes from being

confirmed town

to each other, not the communication aspect. do you know what would

actually

be similar to masons? two people who knew each other so well that they could both very strongly claim that the other is town, and convince other people on that as well.

from a setup balance perspective, neighbors are simply not comparable to masons. they're just not.

[northsidegal]

no, they're not. the strength in masons comes from being confirmed town to each other, not the communication aspect. do you know what would actually be similar to masons? two people who knew each other so well that they could both very strongly claim that the other is town, and convince other people on that as well.

from a setup balance perspective, neighbors are simply not comparable to masons. they're just not.

No, having the ability to discuss thoughts in a PT is where the main power of a Mason is.
This is the same from 2 neibours who town read each other. Stop making out that this isn't strong.

I'll ask again, do you town read Andre?

on what basis can you assert the claim that the main power of masons is the private communication aspect, such that two neighbors who townread each other are comparable in strength? what sort of logic, evidence or authority allows you to make such a claim?

a 9 person 2 mason otherwise vanilla game is

roughly

balanced. i'd say the same thing about a 9 person 2 IC game, or a 9 person game where two people were separately informed the other was town but with no ability to communicate. a 9 person game with a 2 person town neighborhood is

nowhere near

the power level of the rest of those games. i think that if you ask anyone who looks at open games often they'd say the same thing. i think that if you asked anyone who's a part of the normal review group, of which i am, they'd say the same thing. i think that, logically, it makes sense to say that the actual power of masons rests in the fact that they can stop the other from being eliminated by virtue of testament to the other person's towniness, which you could replicate in the scenario i described last post by having two people with great reads on each other but no communication power, and is thus non-specific to the private communication aspect.


yes, i think andres is more likely town than not.

[northsidegal]

let me be clear about something – i'm talking from a

setup balance

perspective. if you take two people who get a super strong townread on each other and can convince the rest of the town on that, they

actually are

of a similar power level to masons! this is one of the reasons why i'm of the opinion that being a highly effective townie isn't just about "hard carrying" through scumreads or whatever, you can be super effective in raising winrates of games that you're in just by getting reliable townreads and protecting them, or making sure that you yourself aren't lynched as town.

the key insight here, though, is that this isn't

specific to the setup

, it's just a function of the players regardless of the setup. in terms of

setup balance

, neighbors are basically always a wash unless considering interactions with other roles. two people who are neighbors

could

become like masons if they got super strong townreads on each other and convinced the town of such, but that has basically nothing to do with them being neighbors, and the private communication aspect adds very little to it.

[northsidegal]

-shrug-

sigmund asked why not sang, and i gave the reason from my perspective. you might be right. if i'm wrong then it's unfortunate that i'm not voting VFP instead of sang.

or, the other way around.

mildly baffled and moderately disappointed that you’re not TRing me, nsg

-shrug-

[northsidegal]

so as i said in the hood you almost never see scum on a d1 wagon that lands on scum in a 9 person game

if i recall correctly that leaves uneven, ico, and SS

SS is town, so i think it's between uneven and ico

[northsidegal]

Andresvmb [4]: Iconeum, VFP, Moongrass, sang froid
VFP [3]: Andresvmb, northsidegal, Sigmund
northsidegal [1]: UneveN

not voting [1]: Something_Smart

I think Uneven and SS take the hammer in this game state?

like are scum really that cowardly these days that they won't make a move?

Think we probably just win with an ICo Yeeeeeeet.

this is probably valid for SS but probably not for uneven given i think she wasn't even around

also probably a point in favor of sang town given the yolo hammer

[northsidegal]

meh, sometimes you just can't control that kind of thing. i was about as invested as one can be in yesterday's wagon and i still woke up just a few minutes after the hammer

i don't have a pick yet because i haven't actually looked for partner tells, i just think today's lynchpool is {ico, uneven} almost always

[northsidegal]

i was going to ask why people seem to always think that i'm pushing them when i just say that i think that they could be scum, but i guess i get sensitive in the exact same manner if not more strongly whenever someone even implies i could be scum, haha.

i don't mean anything by it.

[northsidegal]

meh, sometimes you just can't control that kind of thing. i was about as invested as one can be in yesterday's wagon and i still woke up just a few minutes after the hammer

I was around before deadline but after VFP was hammered, I set an alarm.

why not post something? just didn't feel there was anything to say?

[northsidegal]

oh i guess i could be wrong about SS town?

[northsidegal]

meh, i still don't really think he's scum at the moment.

[northsidegal]

do you mean my conversation with moongrass about you when you say "things i previously brought up"? or something else?

[northsidegal]

SS is town

No

-shrug-

if you know something i don't, i'm open to hearing your reasons

[northsidegal]

I mean the fact that UneveN is in your pool is enough reason for me to doubt your judgement this game, think about it

this isn't really about

my

judgment here—as much as it seems like people are looking to me for who'll die today, i don't expect people to just trust my judgment or anything. i'm really more interested in your positive reasons

to

scumread SS rather than any reasons you might have to not believe my townread on him.

[northsidegal]

do you mean my conversation with moongrass about you when you say "things i previously brought up"? or something else?

Yes your conversation about your progression with regards to me.

to me, it's really about a balancing of the weight of various tells. for instance, i very strongly believe in that principle i talked about last page, where scum almost never end up bussing on a d1 wagon in a 9 person game. that pretty much leaves me with three people. now, i felt like the points moongrass made about you were enough to at least give you another day, but they didn't outright convince me that you were town. that's sort of the basic outline of why i'm considering you today.

[northsidegal]

i do think that's basically the direction we're heading

just want to do a re-read or two of the game first

[northsidegal]

relax. i like to keep my mind open to different possibilities. i get that all of us are just referring to ~reasons~ here because none of us have any actual reasons to give (myself included), but in my recent games i've found ~reasons~ to often blind me to things i should've been considering. so i'm rereading the game with an open mind, and not voting anyone yet – no need to sound the alarm bells.

[northsidegal]

hm

maybe we should just kill ico

[northsidegal]

Perhaps you don't fully understand what's going on. (Which, I guess, is understandable, considering you don't know everything that I know.)

Nobody pulls this line off better than SS

hahaha, that's quite the cinematic quote

[northsidegal]

okay jesus christ relax

[northsidegal]

So whatever it is, I don’t think it’s clearing for you

Whereas I do think my thing is soft clearing for UneveN, who I assume knows what I’m talking about

My not being able to thumbs up this post is why we need reactions.

[northsidegal]

anyways here are some quotes

Spoiler:

Icon's too in your face to be scum.
405 is town minded unless Ico and Moon are the scum team.

Andre was the other town read of mine for what it's worth.

I'll continue later I have work now.

I found that post empty. Obviously it was a meta read, the question could be considered posting for the sake of posting.

The post isn't of concern itself, but the way SS is playing before and after

VFP what are your thoughts on Ico?

So I have 0 experience with Ico and I have no meta knowledge.
But Ico just comes across as not caring and just to be in everyone's face.

The read list isn't of anything to be impressed with I agree there, and is pretty lazy. However, that would suggest that Ico is being lazy in general.
If scum, Ico is looking for the "scum don't do this" and most likely putting effort into their posts to get this read, so a lazy read post doesn't fit in this situation.
This goes back to my lack of caring comment.

The biggest down fall I see with Ico is still having Sigmund as scum while responding positively to my post about Sigmund being town.

I do think though that Ico would be a bad lim today regardless.

I was prodded

VOTE: Something Smart

I think SS is just scum here. There's.anough players to suspect SS as well so let's see how much resistance there is here.

So no takers to SS?

so via the ancient technique of lazy scumhunting, i guess it's ico

[northsidegal]

hmm, now if it's for the homies then that's tempting

[northsidegal]

great flavor datisi, thanks for modding!

good game all!

[northsidegal]

gg, wp to all, as ever

I’m so confused by how you and nsg didn’t see that UneveN was the mason, S_S? And by like... whatever it was you were both alluding to re: your being town

for a while i thought that uneven was a traffic analyst based on a post moon pointed out which looked like a crumb for that, and that thought didn't really get updated on for a while. when it did i decided to just stick with it basically to do what SS said, because the sudden shift would look weird and because i was pretty sure we were going with ico anyways

as a side note (and to sort of continue what i said a bit earlier), i think this is final confirmation for me that i should almost always try to ignore

~reasons~

, by which i mean i should never ever take thinking someone is a power role as an excuse to avoid reading them. in this case it didn't really turn out to hurt me, but the fact that i didn't update on what should have been an obvious fact for a while just because i saw the traffic analyst crumb and filed uneven away is definitely a mistake. in previous games i haven't been so lucky, and people i've ignored because of thinking that they must be a power role turned out to be scum.

[northsidegal]

great flavor datisi, thanks for modding!

good game all!

Will I be receiving an alt guess via PM?

sent. the only one i don't think i figured out was uneven, although i do have a pool of possible people. i also didn't guess VFP, although i honestly thought that VFP was a newbie, so i wasn't even looking.

[northsidegal]

I’m still kind of confused why you thought I was scum, nsg. Because I wasn’t at scum on VFP and ico when others had already reached that point?

honestly? it was almost entirely a partner read with moon.

[northsidegal]

Also, NSG’s thinking process in our hood is a great read. Thoroughly recommend. Talk about a good player.

thanks! and yeah, nice job on the votes! i've only had a few games ever where i only vote scum, they're a rare accomplishment!

[northsidegal]

could we get the PTs opened?