Open 876 - Fire and Ice - Postgame

[Alianna]

1.18

Votecount 1.18

usesPython (E-2): Oclaxian Empire, The Bulge, Aureal, Doctor Drew, Black
The Bulge (E-2): Enchant, biancospino, usesPython, furtiveglance, HighPrincessErinys
Black (1): Kokichi Oma

Not Voting (2): Malakittens, osuka

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2023-04-20 18:48:28).

[usesPython]

Aureal and Black, can you walk us through why you're on our wagon instead of Bulge/Drew?

-A

[furtiveglance]

Cmon yall

The choice is clear

[usesPython]

Kokichi you sr Black, who do you think the other scum are?

-A

[The Bulge]

did i miss the part where someone on my wagon gave a shred of reasoning? python said drew/bulge about a million times and everyone else was like yea sure why not, does that about sum it up?

[The Bulge]

waiting for sweet release

[usesPython]

I also want to repeat myself that Drew isn't happening today, not with my vote. I have a very strong gutread there that scum!Drew and town!Bulge is not a thing.

Can you walk us through this read?

-A

[usesPython]

As far as Bulge, I do agree it is odd that they have seemingly danced around discussing me, especially given the discussions surrounding the Bianco wagon and by proxy HPE as well.

Why do you think Bulge would do this?

-A

[Malakittens]

Ugh I don’t know which one I want.

Can I get a quick summary of the wagons

[usesPython]

Ugh I don’t know which one I want.

Can I get a quick summary of the wagons

uhhh we're mostly being wagoned cause people don't like Nameless mechposting and me metaing

Black's getting wagoned by Kokichi cause apparently she was obvtown in DN and isn't in this game

Bulge wagon is part of a Bulge/Drew solve. Bulge's pretty much refusing to give any reads on Drew even in places where it'd have been extremely natural to do so, Drew's supposedly tring Bulge but doesn't really seem to care if they get limmed and is more focused on distancing himself from the Bulge/Drew associative. Bulge is getting wagoned over Drew here as a compromise cause otherwise Bianco doesn't wanna be on the wagon

-A

[usesPython]

General consensus for scummyness seems to be Python == Bulge/Drew > Black > Drew > Bulge

-A

[usesPython]

Also we're really sorry about giving you so many pages to go through, would you prefer a quick rundown on opinions of the people on wagons instead?

-A

[Enchant]

Also we're really sorry about giving you so many pages to go through, would you prefer a quick rundown on opinions of the people on wagons instead?

-A

Sure why not

[usesPython]

Why people are on the wagon they're on:

1. Spoiler: Black

   I SR python and Drew btw so I'm cool with either wagon

   I will literally self-hammer d2 if it's not Bulge/Drew
   
   -A

   I don't believe you, but I'll still join your cause
   
   VOTE: Drew

   Shrugging your shoulders and going "welp nothing I can do about it" instead of actively fighting against consensus to keep your tr's alive is not townie behaviour
   
   -A

   I mean in his defense you would just accuse him of defending his wolf mate. And I'm also not sure how valid this point is. If I barely have a TR on someone I'm not gonna fight tooth and nail to make sure they don't get limmed

   I'm not really a fan of python backing Drew into a corner here
   
   Might reconsider my vote

   
   That's what the nightkill is for isn't it? Why go for a "Flip Black and then flip me if Black flips town" gambit as scum here?
   
   -A

   Going back to this with python's recent posts in mind, I'm having a really hard time believing that they can't see the benefit of scum proposing a gambit here. I'll even go as far as to say they are deliberately acting obtuse about it
   
   If what python thinks is true that town basically loses if we lim town here, it would make

   complete

   sense for scum to propose a gambit. That's one townie down and there isn't even a guarantee the scum gets limmed D2. It's so easy to get out of a gambit
   
   I think this contradiction in python's logic suggests they are a wolf
   
   VOTE: python

   I actually think a python/Kokichi team makes a lot of sense if I'm solving for pairs

   
   
2. Spoiler: Python

   Bulge wagon is part of a Bulge/Drew solve. Bulge's pretty much refusing to give any reads on Drew even in places where it'd have been extremely natural to do so, Drew's supposedly tring Bulge but doesn't really seem to care if they get limmed and is more focused on distancing himself from the Bulge/Drew associative. Bulge is getting wagoned over Drew here as a compromise cause otherwise Bianco doesn't wanna be on the wagon
   
   -A

   
   
3. Spoiler: Mala

   
   Not on a wagon
   
   
4. Spoiler: The Bulge

   Which when combined gives the chances of
   

   Town

   : 8/12 (66.67%)
   

   Mafia

   : 4/12 (33.33%)

   lmao

   colourcoded and everything and not a single useful mechpost to be found

   Also glad to see you're ignoring 223 when you're just straight up wrong in 247, explains a lot
   
   -Nameless

   223 is entirely based on false premises/nonsensical assumptions (ie, scum shooting at random, doctor healing at random, groupscum have =rand accuracy, whatever youre saying about "full control over the lim"?) and your other posts considering nolims are pointless bc why would we ever do that. these mechposts are a waste of time at best and an active distraction from any actual scumhunting/townplay at worst

   If actions and reads aren't random then the double target = no nightkill rule is even more likely to go into effect, go do the damn math if you're gonna hold these positions
   
   -Nameless

   my position is that your math is a waste of time and a distraction from actually doing anything useful, and also that no limming is a stupid idea

   are u capable of making game-relevant posts as scum?

   
   
5. Spoiler: furtiveglance

   i looked at two votes on dragon + hpe saying it wanted to vote and made a decision without reading why ppl were voting it.

   

   its ok to not have an opinion

   anyway
   
   VOTE: python

   Sus posting, unexplained vote at the end being the worst
   
   VOTE: The Bulge

   I'll get a bit of momentum going here, sure. Drew tends to be a bit more jokey as scum I think, and I've seen a bit of that here.
   
   VOTE: Doctor Drew

   Bulge is very likely scum, I'm gonna move back.
   
   VOTE: The Bulge

   Bulge is very likely scum, I'm gonna move back.

   I'm not getting these vibes...can you elaborate?
   
   A quick look at his ISO and he seems kinda townie to me. He's definitely putting in some effort to solve

   I agree that he's pushing, but I see an agenda.

   1.14

   Votecount 1.14

   
   
   usesPython (4): Oclaxian Empire, The Bulge, Aureal, Doctor Drew
   Black (3): Kokichi Oma, HighPrincessErinys, biancospino
   The Bulge (2): furtiveglance, usesPython
   Malakittens (1): Enchant
   Kokichi Oma (1): Black
   
   Not Voting (2): Malakittens, osuka
   
   With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to secure an execution.
   
   The day deadline is in (expired on 2023-04-20 18:48:28).

   Python town. I can vote Black if need be

   Actually I think this is coming from a mech misunderstanding: Just because groupscum can do something that is -EV for town doesn't mean that it's +EV for that groupscum. Your argument that we're forcing a 1f1 with a town does get that it'd be +scum winrate in that scenario but it misses the point that it'd be -groupscum winrate (e.g. If we were Ice Mafia then it'd cause Town and Ice Mafia win rate to go down while Fire Mafia win rate goes up)

   That's assuming the 1v1 actually results in both players getting limmed. Like I said it's too easy to get out of a gambit, so proposing the gambit on D1 should be a viable scum tactic to you
   
   And I think it's something you as scum would propose here. We now know you think the town essentially loses if we lim green D1, so it makes perfect sense for you to propose a gambit based off of weak associatives to try and push a mislim here
   
   

   And you'll just come up with some mech BS or find a way to wiggle your way out of your end of the gambit D2
   

   This last line seems really uncharitable and disproportionate
   
   VOTE: Black

   VOTE: The Bulge

   
   
6. Spoiler: Enchant

   VOTE: Drew
   
   Counterwagons are funny

   VOTE: Bulge

   Enchant you too, are you willing to get on a Bulge wagon instead of a Drew wagon?
   
   -A

   I really don't care k

   You don't care because you sr both or because you just want a lim and are willing to wagon whomever?

   Second

   Also this is day 1, i literally don't care.

   
   
7. Spoiler: Doctor Drew

   Yes I did explain the push on Bianco initially, and didn't like how they discredited my questions I had to HPE.
   
   Also, python how did I really push HPE? I took what Black said about HPE's voting style and ran with it, yes I poked/prodded/and pressured, but I never was really thinking of wagoning them. In fact, in retrospect given how Black has been acting, Black could have just been throwing shade at HPE hoping that I WOULD start a push and wagon on HPE(that thought kinda just popped in my head while typing this).
   
   As far as Bulge, I do agree it is odd that they have seemingly danced around discussing me, especially given the discussions surrounding the Bianco wagon and by proxy HPE as well.
   
   Pre Edit: Actually Black my initial push was just off Bianco voting Ice in the manner they did. But my scum read gained strength how they acted after my initial suspicions. And an early game wagon isn't just to figure out the person you put on the wagon, but how everyone else reacts as well.
   
   There was something else about Bulge, but I am phone posting and I want to get this post out and then make sure it was actually Bulge who said it.

   Oh yes it was Bulge, but more about userPython.
   
   I joke around about 'ugh, mech speak' but I get that in certain game types it can come in handy to break things down like that. But it seems like the main conclusion is that 'hey, we should hunt scum'. I think Bulge said it best here
   

   your other posts considering nolims are pointless bc why would we ever do that. these mechposts are a waste of time at best and an active distraction from any actual scumhunting/townplay at worst

   Especially since others have rolled their eyes at the mech speak, and python seemed to double down on it. Almost seems like they are purposely obfuscating the game under the guise of seeming so obvtown on the surface.
   
   Pre Edit: Open wolfing is my play style lol

   Pre Edit: Open wolfing is my play style lol

   If this is the case then Drew not mentioning Bulge and Bulge not mentioning Drew until now looks really bad
   
   -A

   I also haven't mentioned you until now, or Furtive, or Koki, and barely Aureal. In fact, most of my game here has been Bianco and HPE, with a bit of Black and osuka in there as well. Are they all my scum buddies? Are you?
   
   I only talked about Bulge because you(or someone here today) asked me about them. There wasn't much for me to say that wasn't already said, and I repeated. The mech speak post they made was an 'oh ya there was one thing now that you reminded me' sort of thing.
   
   You are attaching me to the Bulge for them not really discussing me, and puts me in a spot where they is no way to defend against that.

   Bianco knows how to butter me up, and I may just fall for it.
   
   But after sitting on it for a bit, feel a bit more confident about this given today's interactions.
   
   VOTE: python

   
   
8. Spoiler: biancospino

   Ok, I'm going to put my foot down here. I do

   not

   want a Drew lim today.
   I may be amenable to a Bulge lim instead.

   VOTE: Bulge

   
   
9. Spoiler: HighPrincessErinys

   This one thinks it trusts Python, and of course it's got a scumread on Ice for his vote on Mala, but otherwise it's... rather lacking in reads honestly. Need to give this game a look over sometime and try to come up with SOMETHING.

   Why does it seem like you're afraid to vote?

   Because that's what you're interpreting me as feeling.
   But also because 1) Python is a townread and 2) IceDragon is a scumread, yes, but for something that's very inconclusive on it's own. He hasn't given us much else which, to be fair to you, is probably worth an eyebrow raising too, but... either way, not in a hurry to get a lim when we still have alot of discussion time available.

   This one thinks it trusts Python, and of course it's got a scumread on Ice for his vote on Mala, but otherwise it's... rather lacking in reads honestly. Need to give this game a look over sometime and try to come up with SOMETHING.

   explain python read.

   Just getting town vibes from them but its not exactly concrete. 'Trust' might've been minor hyperbole but it's still a bit of a townlean atm.

   VOTE: The Bulge
   This one supposes it's willing to vote here.

   
   
10. Spoiler: Aureal

    Hmmm. You've played a lot with bianco, then? I'm kind of surprised. What do you think of bianco's turn against Black?

    Is weak reasoning(again), seems a bit of wagon hopping as well.

    
    Yeah, there's something kind of fuzzy about the logic and I'm not quite putting my finger on it right now. That vote and Python's willingness to sheep Kokichi's meta read after remembering the one game we played with Black had her as mafia are both sticking out to me as particularly fishy. Not really feeling the furtive vote that much anymore, though it'd be nice if he'd do a little more, so how about a VOTE: usesPython.

    Elaborate on the fishyness
    
    -A

    
    Hmmm. Well for one, I don't recall you trying to use other people's opinions on meta before. And I'm not clear whether you're actually reading DN to try to figure out whether Kokichi's assessment is valid. Are you just skimming ISOs there?
    
    But I guess the thing that's making me most twitchy is the way it sets Kokichi up as a fall guy if his read is wrong. Yes it's his idea to flip him next if he's wrong but it's not protown to encourage that. My last two games had situations like that where I got into a "one of us is town and one is scum" showdown (HI ENCHANT) except we actually were all town.

    Okay seriously, WTF. Bulge I'm not familiar with but I expect more checking of your facts from

    you

    . I had over three times as many posts as furtive had (and still more now since I'm doing a long day's work worth of catch-up now) and it's clear our ISOs aren't even close to comparable. He hadn't managed more than three sentences in a post! I'm wrecking his sentence record with just this modest post!

    Drew how did you know to wagon Aureal so fast
    
    You're doing the same thing Black was doing in Newbie 2111 where you're just kinda...

    there

    ? Like you're posting but it's not really going anywhere?
    
    -A

    
    Not really going anywhere? Not sure what you mean- I remember in that game you accused Black of not being first on any reads and I totally was first reading the post where HPE voted Black as HPE being town. Which a bunch of people, including you I believe, then sheeped.
    
    Oh, and there didn't really seem to be a lot of resistance to the Black wagon for a while there. Then I decided I didn't like it, and now somehow it's not really a thing whereas

    your

    wagon is. Hmm.

    
    
11. Spoiler: Oclaxian Empire

    i'm gonna read and post some light thoughts from the last 10 pages as well. i may or may not be able to remember why i thought these things in the morning.
    
    - i don't like koichi gambit
    - i don't like black being pushed for meta reasons, and i don't like python for that, but i've already expressed anti-meta. i mildly dislike hpe from it, but that's more so disagreement of opinion rather than content of post.
    - i'm mostly skimming over the meta argument, but i do like the kokichi vote, but i also disagree w/ the idea of koichi doing it. but i think it's just like, strictly worse to try to gambit out yourself on this if you're scum, unless you really think your partner can deepwolf the rest of the game?
    - i don't know what to make of koichi being so dead-set on black being scum? nor like, really what it's being based off of. koichi, would u please like to explain that?
    - osuka posting feels townie, i think? i didn't sit down and read it, more so skim osuka and just go "yeah that looks townie i think"
    - i think python becomes more scummy for icedragon saying he wanted to play differently on this account, and trying to use meta for that on an alt is just still - scummy, but it could also just be the actual vehement *hatred* we have for stuff like that making us think it's scummy.
    - python and us are both systems. we just sign our posts less often, and aren't signing because its hard to tell who's actually fronting.
    - bulge v python feels ok to me. i think bulge is probably town, but i was already tring bulge from what i could remember of this game.
    - koichi claiming to want to be scum in this setup / not reading the setup feels townie? i think its mostly bc town might look at the numbers of the setup and go "that looks fun" and not look at special mechanics, where scum are forced to look at special mechanics?
    - hi enchant!

    
    
12. Spoiler: Kokichi Oma

    I thought you were bragging in one game that you never flipped scum before? Unless you have an alt i'm not aware of I guess. Either way you're scum here.

    I think you might be confusing me with someone else? We only played Death Note together. I've finished 5 games on site and 3 of them were wolf games lol

    Maybe I was. Either way, I think you're scum here

    Cause the time she was town in the game I played she was OBVIOUS town. And she's not that here. It's a gut feeling. And my gut feelings are right 50% of the time
    
    

    Vote black today. If they don't flip scum, you can vote me tomorrow. that's how strong my gut feeling is

    VOTE: Dragon
    not random

    Good, no more RVS. Why?

    I believe others made it clear already, but 45 leaves a bit of an unpleasant taste. It's latching to Aureal's question in a sly fashion. And weakly reframing the question as an accusation

    I agree that 45 is bad, but I don't think it's enough for me to vote them yet

    Out of RVS on page 3. I love it
    
    I don't have an issue with Dragon's 45 nor do I have an issue with the wagon that formed off of it
    
    My only issue atm is HPE's 54 where he says he's on board to vote Dragon but doesn't want to turn it into a wagon?

    Oh no.. You finally flipped scum didn't you
    
    VOTE: Black

    See, if you did find 45 bad, but not enough to vote, and you did vote in response to 79, then you must have found 79 even worse right? So you should be able to point to what's wrong with it, and the answer should not be gut.
    I've already asked this to you way back then btw

    I don't have experience with Dragon. I can do so with Black. Which is why it's different

    Since you all seem scared to vote Black today, if I die make sure Black is the vote the next day

    
    
13. Spoiler: osuka

    
    Not on a wagon
    

If you're feeling misrepped please just correct any errors, summarizing the opinions of 13 people is hard

-A

[Kokichi Oma]

Why do you even TR Kokichi so much python?

Because i caught you

[Kokichi Oma]

Why do you even TR Kokichi so much python?

They're not as blatantly manipulative as they were in DN mafia

-A

Wait who are you

[Kokichi Oma]

This one doesn't think it wants a Black elim anymore, and it's not very sure about voting like, Python or Drew either at the moment. But its pretty sure that it'd like to elim furtive who really is not playing like he normally would in its opinion.

This one thinks that one is choosing poorly. But we will see tomorrow.

[Kokichi Oma]

Kokichi you sr Black, who do you think the other scum are?

-A

Mala is on the opposite team. IDK about anyone else

[Black]

Why do you even TR Kokichi so much python?

Because i caught you

You couldn't even elaborate on your gut read and now your wagon has fallen apart because of it. Better luck next time!

[Kokichi Oma]

Ugh I don’t know which one I want.

Can I get a quick summary of the wagons

You're sooooooo lucky Black is scummier than you otherwise i'd be pushing for your elim

[Black]

Getting a lim through requires more than just repeating "X is scum!" and then ignoring everyone's attempts to get you to expand on that

You'll get better in time

[Kokichi Oma]

Why do you even TR Kokichi so much python?

Because i caught you

You couldn't even elaborate on your gut read and now your wagon has fallen apart because of it. Better luck next time!

Hey. Other mafia. Make sure to kill Black tonight for a free scum kill. TRUST ME

[Kokichi Oma]

Getting a lim through requires more than just repeating "X is scum!" and then ignoring everyone's attempts to get you to expand on that

You'll get better in time

You misunderstand my intentions. In this game I don't need to push you to be voted out, I just need other scum to kill you OR have you voted out.

[Black]

At this point Kokichi this just seems personal

[Kokichi Oma]

I have nothing against you. You're just scum this game