Micro Normal 1094 | Game Over!

[Thomith]

VOTE: ORAM

Hey Hey.

[Thomith]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Testarossa

[Thomith]

Why are we putting somebody on E-1 on Page 1?

[Thomith]

Feel like anybody who actually hammered her so early would be scumclaiming anyway.

Or just not paying enough attention.

[Thomith]

Feel like anybody who actually hammered her so early would be scumclaiming anyway.

This kinda feels like you know I'll flip town

I didn't even catch this. Hm.

[Thomith]

Why are we putting somebody on E-1 on Page 1?

VOTE: thomith

Seems like someone saying the obvious to look towny

In all likelihood Testarossa might not be mafia because knowingly putting someone at E-1 is bringing a lot of attention to herself for little gain. I still kind of want to look at what she does from here before I commit this to a town read though.

I voted anyway to see how people to react, and gave weak reasoning to see who would jump on me.

Gamma jumping on me seemed relatively organic. your vote however feels less so.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hu Tao

[Thomith]

I mentioned the E-1 for two reasons.

1) Even though it probably isnt a Maf tell, I still wanted to point it out because regardless of alignment I think putting someone on E-1 on page 1 is silly.

2) I knew it was a very weak reason to vote, and knew it would bring attention to me, so I could gauge the reactions it brought to get the game moving.

[Thomith]

I mentioned the E-1 for two reasons.

1) Even though it probably isnt a Maf tell, I still wanted to point it out because regardless of alignment I think putting someone on E-1 on page 1 is silly.

2) I knew it was a very weak reason to vote, and knew it would bring attention to me, so I could gauge the reactions it brought to get the game moving.

Okay so you agree that your post was weird but just don't like my reasoning for saying it was weird? Okay I understand better now. And I would say it worked to get more discussion though I wish you waited until others chimed in so I could see any other's opinions on it. Thoughts on Black's reason for voting me based on your post?

I do agree it was weird - it kind of was by design to see how people reacted to it. It was something I wanted to try out to get the game out of RVS faster and I think it did its job.
The reason I didnt want to wait too long is I kind of wanted immediate reactions (usually these are more genuine than reactions that can be planned if they're made like a day later or so, at least imo)

I'll be real theres always that small voice in my head that I could be getting pocketed by her (but that's more because I'm a little paranoid than anything she has done) - otherwise I'm not too concerned about it, because she seems to have given her own reasoning in a seperate post later, despite voting immediately following my post where I voted you.

Why are we putting somebody on E-1 on Page 1?

VOTE: thomith

Seems like someone saying the obvious to look towny

In all likelihood Testarossa might not be mafia because knowingly putting someone at E-1 is bringing a lot of attention to herself for little gain. I still kind of want to look at what she does from here before I commit this to a town read though.

I voted anyway to see how people to react, and gave weak reasoning to see who would jump on me.

Gamma jumping on me seemed relatively organic. your vote however feels less so.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hu Tao

Also can you explain your thoughts on why gamma's vote feels authentic? All she said was that she feels like voting there at the moment?

Similar to your thoughts on me actually when I think about it - Gamma's vote felt authentic because it seemed like an immediate response to me acting weird, and also being the first vote reinforces that for me a bit.
Your post to me felt like it could have been jumping on to a wagon/attempting to make it grow, almost in a way that felt like you could have been overexplaining the vote to justify it?

Again I concede that in hindsight maybe i should have let it play out longer, my bad there.

[Thomith]

Spoiler: to Thomith

I mentioned the E-1 for two reasons.

1) Even though it probably isnt a Maf tell, I still wanted to point it out because regardless of alignment I think putting someone on E-1 on page 1 is silly.

2) I knew it was a very weak reason to vote, and knew it would bring attention to me, so I could gauge the reactions it brought to get the game moving.

Okay so you agree that your post was weird but just don't like my reasoning for saying it was weird? Okay I understand better now. And I would say it worked to get more discussion though I wish you waited until others chimed in so I could see any other's opinions on it. Thoughts on Black's reason for voting me based on your post?

I do agree it was weird - it kind of was by design to see how people reacted to it. It was something I wanted to try out to get the game out of RVS faster and I think it did its job.
The reason I didnt want to wait too long is I kind of wanted immediate reactions (usually these are more genuine than reactions that can be planned if they're made like a day later or so, at least imo)

I'll be real theres always that small voice in my head that I could be getting pocketed by her (but that's more because I'm a little paranoid than anything she has done) - otherwise I'm not too concerned about it, because she seems to have given her own reasoning in a seperate post later, despite voting immediately following my post where I voted you.

Why are we putting somebody on E-1 on Page 1?

VOTE: thomith

Seems like someone saying the obvious to look towny

In all likelihood Testarossa might not be mafia because knowingly putting someone at E-1 is bringing a lot of attention to herself for little gain. I still kind of want to look at what she does from here before I commit this to a town read though.

I voted anyway to see how people to react, and gave weak reasoning to see who would jump on me.

Gamma jumping on me seemed relatively organic. your vote however feels less so.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hu Tao

Also can you explain your thoughts on why gamma's vote feels authentic? All she said was that she feels like voting there at the moment?

Similar to your thoughts on me actually when I think about it - Gamma's vote felt authentic because it seemed like an immediate response to me acting weird, and also being the first vote reinforces that for me a bit.
Your post to me felt like it could have been jumping on to a wagon/attempting to make it grow, almost in a way that felt like you could have been overexplaining the vote to justify it?

Again I concede that in hindsight maybe i should have let it play out longer, my bad there.

Could you explain your thoughts on Black? Seems like she's saying the post is not weird, and thus her vote on me is for that. But you admit it is weird since you did it on purpose. What are your thoughts on the discrepancies there.

Acknowledging I've seen this just haven't got round to answering it yet - I'm leaving work here in a little bit so will answer when I get home.

I do want to do this for now;
UNVOTE:
I do like your lines of questioning in the last few posts.

[Thomith]

Spoiler: to Thomith

I mentioned the E-1 for two reasons.

1) Even though it probably isnt a Maf tell, I still wanted to point it out because regardless of alignment I think putting someone on E-1 on page 1 is silly.

2) I knew it was a very weak reason to vote, and knew it would bring attention to me, so I could gauge the reactions it brought to get the game moving.

Okay so you agree that your post was weird but just don't like my reasoning for saying it was weird? Okay I understand better now. And I would say it worked to get more discussion though I wish you waited until others chimed in so I could see any other's opinions on it. Thoughts on Black's reason for voting me based on your post?

I do agree it was weird - it kind of was by design to see how people reacted to it. It was something I wanted to try out to get the game out of RVS faster and I think it did its job.
The reason I didnt want to wait too long is I kind of wanted immediate reactions (usually these are more genuine than reactions that can be planned if they're made like a day later or so, at least imo)

I'll be real theres always that small voice in my head that I could be getting pocketed by her (but that's more because I'm a little paranoid than anything she has done) - otherwise I'm not too concerned about it, because she seems to have given her own reasoning in a seperate post later, despite voting immediately following my post where I voted you.

Why are we putting somebody on E-1 on Page 1?

VOTE: thomith

Seems like someone saying the obvious to look towny

In all likelihood Testarossa might not be mafia because knowingly putting someone at E-1 is bringing a lot of attention to herself for little gain. I still kind of want to look at what she does from here before I commit this to a town read though.

I voted anyway to see how people to react, and gave weak reasoning to see who would jump on me.

Gamma jumping on me seemed relatively organic. your vote however feels less so.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hu Tao

Also can you explain your thoughts on why gamma's vote feels authentic? All she said was that she feels like voting there at the moment?

Similar to your thoughts on me actually when I think about it - Gamma's vote felt authentic because it seemed like an immediate response to me acting weird, and also being the first vote reinforces that for me a bit.
Your post to me felt like it could have been jumping on to a wagon/attempting to make it grow, almost in a way that felt like you could have been overexplaining the vote to justify it?

Again I concede that in hindsight maybe i should have let it play out longer, my bad there.

Could you explain your thoughts on Black? Seems like she's saying the post is not weird, and thus her vote on me is for that. But you admit it is weird since you did it on purpose. What are your thoughts on the discrepancies there.

The reason I don't think Black's reasoning for voting you is scummy, despite the discrepancy you mentioned is because she didn't just echo my reasoning, she had reasoning of her own, which makes me feel good about the vote, as she wasn't just sheeping me, but had her own reasons.

I kinda like Hu Tao's questions here

I don't really like Thomith saying his Testa vote was purposely weak after he got some pressure for it. To me it felt like his frustration was real and he was genuinely worried about someone not paying attention to the VC and hammering me, which I think makes sense from a competitive standpoint. But the conversation with Hu makes me think he's trying to play it off as it all being fake for the sake of reactions

I'm not too sure what to say here other than try and explain my thought process:
I stand by the fact that I think the E-1 was silly, but as I said, I didn't think that Mafia are likely to do something to bring that much attention to themselves that early for no reason. I noted though that this was an easy vote, but didn't think that it would be easy to read scum using the opportunity to jump on this wagon, due to how easy it would be to justify the vote.
Because of that, I voted Testa, believing that there was a chance that I would be pressured for jumping on the "easy wagon" - however I thought it would be easier to gauge reactions for votes on me, because there would need to be a justification past "They put Black at E-1", so it would be easier to notice scum jumping onto a wagon on me if it did happen, or conversely to try and read who could be Town voting me due to good justification.

Not sure if I'm explaining it well, or if it's a flawed thought process but not sure how else to explain it..

[Thomith]

I think Hu Tao picked up on the same things I did, just expressed them in a way that wasn’t perfect

What do you think of Thomith's responses afterward?

Not great. Feels kinda desperate
I really just don’t care for the fact that the vote came before the explanation like it did

May I ask why you felt my responses felt desperate?

Spoiler: to Thomith

I mentioned the E-1 for two reasons.

1) Even though it probably isnt a Maf tell, I still wanted to point it out because regardless of alignment I think putting someone on E-1 on page 1 is silly.

2) I knew it was a very weak reason to vote, and knew it would bring attention to me, so I could gauge the reactions it brought to get the game moving.

Okay so you agree that your post was weird but just don't like my reasoning for saying it was weird? Okay I understand better now. And I would say it worked to get more discussion though I wish you waited until others chimed in so I could see any other's opinions on it. Thoughts on Black's reason for voting me based on your post?

I do agree it was weird - it kind of was by design to see how people reacted to it. It was something I wanted to try out to get the game out of RVS faster and I think it did its job.
The reason I didnt want to wait too long is I kind of wanted immediate reactions (usually these are more genuine than reactions that can be planned if they're made like a day later or so, at least imo)

I'll be real theres always that small voice in my head that I could be getting pocketed by her (but that's more because I'm a little paranoid than anything she has done) - otherwise I'm not too concerned about it, because she seems to have given her own reasoning in a seperate post later, despite voting immediately following my post where I voted you.

Why are we putting somebody on E-1 on Page 1?

VOTE: thomith

Seems like someone saying the obvious to look towny

In all likelihood Testarossa might not be mafia because knowingly putting someone at E-1 is bringing a lot of attention to herself for little gain. I still kind of want to look at what she does from here before I commit this to a town read though.

I voted anyway to see how people to react, and gave weak reasoning to see who would jump on me.

Gamma jumping on me seemed relatively organic. your vote however feels less so.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hu Tao

Also can you explain your thoughts on why gamma's vote feels authentic? All she said was that she feels like voting there at the moment?

Similar to your thoughts on me actually when I think about it - Gamma's vote felt authentic because it seemed like an immediate response to me acting weird, and also being the first vote reinforces that for me a bit.
Your post to me felt like it could have been jumping on to a wagon/attempting to make it grow, almost in a way that felt like you could have been overexplaining the vote to justify it?

Again I concede that in hindsight maybe i should have let it play out longer, my bad there.

Could you explain your thoughts on Black? Seems like she's saying the post is not weird, and thus her vote on me is for that. But you admit it is weird since you did it on purpose. What are your thoughts on the discrepancies there.

Acknowledging I've seen this just haven't got round to answering it yet - I'm leaving work here in a little bit so will answer when I get home.

I do want to do this for now;
UNVOTE:
I do like your lines of questioning in the last few posts.

Okay I'll wait for your response then

Just as a heads up I did end up responding in Post 61

[Thomith]

Good evening!

I just finished catching up, and there was a lot of things said with out a lot of things being said.

I am new I only have one game under my belt. And I don't have any day one reads on any one yet.

Hey!

What do you think of Hu Tao's questioning of me?
What do you think of my responses to that questioning?
What do you think of how Black has been posting so far?
What do you think of Arko's read list? Do you agree?

[Thomith]

[Spoiler = Arko post 90]

I'll address the part about black later- I've got a bit of shit to do, don't think there is enough time tonight to really address that, honestly. I'll get to it tomorrow. And I've got pizza coming.

1 - Oram -

It's still a neutral read, and they have 4 posts but I'll point out what feels scummy and townie. ISO 0 is NAI, but the general sitch there WAS a bit dodgy. Not sure WHERE in the chain though it was dodgy- vote 1 on black wasn't shocking, vote 4 (yours) was bold- a lil too bold for scum. so I've got a feeling the dodgy part is vote 2 or 3. It's less about the content, and more the chain of votes itself was pretty fucky. It's not directly scummy, but has the possibility to be done by scum. Probably a statistical read if anything. ISO 1 is just stating the obvious. considering it's still page 1 with that post, it's pretty NAI. ISO 2 is dismissive. NAI, but dismissive posts CAN be used to scumread. There isn't enough posts though to use it. ISO 3 can be seen as a townie train of thought, but I can't really tell how like it's truthful, or real. Basically- Slight bits of town, slight bits of scum, mostly NAI. not swinging either way to be town or scum, not enough of both to be null. If anything, oram is slightly more town than scum. but it's pretty hard to distinguish.

2 - Thom/Black -

My thoughts on it is that there is very likely one within it- considering their interactions. but of them being a team, yes that's a likelyhood. My feeling on that was mainly how honestly, both thom's AND black's interactions didn't feel very real when interacting with each other. It's possible ONE can be town, and like- statistically possible both are, no confirmations on that type of thing. But I do feel that they are more likely paired to each other if one is scum than someone else.

I actually made a small mention that black flipping scum is way less meaningful on thom than thom flipping scum on black- Due to the possibility of thom following black, and the fact black DID accuse thom.

3 - Naerys -

Yeah, I can see why. I didn't really order my reads by least scum to most scum- but yes, I did mention the fact Naerys was on a bit of a slippery slope to null, as they are closer to being scum than town by a sliiiigggghhhht bit. so yes, I do actually agree with you in not really liking the posts. but personally, too little posts, and not too strong of a dislike for me to put in null.

[/spoiler]

Specifically want to ask about the bolded, it may be me not understanding things correctly, so just want to make sure I 100% understand, but is the bolded not the direct opposite of what you said in your reads post regarding me or Black flipping scum?

[Thomith]

Well that didn't work...

[Thomith]

No, the bold is just there to give a "Title" to a topic. and no, it's directly brought up in that that either TvS or SvS is possible.

Let me clarify what I meant by comparing the two posts I was confused about:

*SNIP*

Black - Null -

Something is pinging to me here that black is scum. Considering I completed 1 game with them as scum... it feels similar to that game. but it also feels just mildy scummy. and then town at the same time. It's unironically a 50/50 whether they are town or scum, and that's not a good thing. I'm saying it now, I'm not feeling black as town. And I don't like it.

If Thom is scum, I'm honestly feeling this has a higher chance of being scum if not.

Thom - Null -

I'm not gonna list what has been said already, it's pretty obvious I agree just by the position. However, the thing I DO want to add is their interactions with black generally read to me like crazy as either scum trying to follow a townie, or a scum acting pair-pair with their partner then realizing: I should probably distance. Yeah,

if black's scum the chance of thom being scum is definitely higher. More than what black would be if thom flipped scum though-

the first scenario mentioned should be a good explanation.

*SNIP*

2 - Thom/Black -

My thoughts on it is that there is very likely one within it- considering their interactions. but of them being a team, yes that's a likelyhood. My feeling on that was mainly how honestly, both thom's AND black's interactions didn't feel very real when interacting with each other. It's possible ONE can be town, and like- statistically possible both are, no confirmations on that type of thing. But I do feel that they are more likely paired to each other if one is scum than someone else. I actually made a small mention that

black flipping scum is way less meaningful on thom than thom flipping scum on black

- Due to the possibility of thom following black, and the fact black DID accuse thom.

Stuff I have bolded and italicized is what is confusing to me, as it reads as contradictory to me, but I could just be misunderstanding it. Either way I'm very confused by the wording here.

Replacing ORAM.

Hi that's me

VOTE: Thomith
Do you remember me? You were in all the good marathons like ten years ago Good to see an old face.

I remember your name! the marathon comment has made me feel old though - the fact I joined this site when I was 13(?) is absolutely crazy to me.

Why are we putting somebody on E-1 on Page 1?

VOTE: thomith

Seems like someone saying the obvious to look towny

In all likelihood Testarossa might not be mafia because knowingly putting someone at E-1 is bringing a lot of attention to herself for little gain. I still kind of want to look at what she does from here before I commit this to a town read though.

I voted anyway to see how people to react, and gave weak reasoning to see who would jump on me.

Gamma jumping on me seemed relatively organic. your vote however feels less so.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hu Tao

I love how 2013 this post is

I'm hoping I catch up to the recent meta of this site eventually...

[Thomith]

I feel good about Kittie for now I think. I like how they answered the questions - sure it had to be prompted, but I think there was a decent amount of analysis in them. I'm curious to see their answer to my first two questions though.

[Thomith]

She* Apologies.

[Thomith]

VOTE: Arko

That is not at all what your first post said.

[Thomith]

I feel good about Arko for now

Why?

[Thomith]

Do you agree with it?

[Thomith]

"If Thom is scum, I'm honestly feeling this has a higher chance of being scum if not."

This bit is the bit that specifically sounds like the contradiction to me, because it sounds like you are saying if I flip scum, than black has a higher chance of being scum than not, which sounds different than you saying black flipping scum says more about me than me flipping scum on black.

[Thomith]

I feel good about Kittie for now I think. I like how they answered the questions - sure it had to be prompted, but I think there was a decent amount of analysis in them. I'm curious to see their answer to my first two questions though.

How so? Tbh her post felt pretty neutral to me. I would get it if that would be based on getting some vibes from that post, but I don't think she has said anything substantial?

Maybe I am just salty that there are so many scumreading Black, but are that ambigous about it because former games, which doesn't help. lol

Tbh to me I also thought it was weird that so many people were scumreading Black, but (at the point you made this post) not many people had voted her despite having her as a scumread... I'm going to leave it alone for now though, because it seems the game has moved past that now.

To me, Kittie reacted well to the questioning, and her thoughts seemed genuine and my gut is making me think she could be town after reading that post.
I want to see how she ends up responding to my first two questions before committing a read one way or the other (and of course, her responses to what has happened since).

Oh shit, I did just notice a typo. Yeah, I fucked that in the end of that post, it is the other way around.

But yes, besides that ONE typo I've been saying the same thing.

Fair enough, That's why I was so confused about how adamant you were because there was a clear discrepancy there
UNVOTE:

Got a bit of time before work

3: Klick voting Hu Tao: Can I get some like, thoughts on this vote? you are probably the first person here to have something besides a town read, let alone having a scum read. Would also be nice to hear your thoughts on more than just Hu Tao though.

I feel like the townreads on Hu Tao are rather weak reasoning for how strongly they're being expressed
I see no real reason she couldn't be scum

Her posting feels... careful, is probably the best way to describe it? I feel like there's a deliberate effort to make her posts feel like accurate description and to put out a large amount of content
I'm not really feeling the belief behind those thoughts though

At the point in time where I first starting reading Hu Tao as town, they were questioning things in a way that seemed like they were trying to get my motivations, and help move the game forward, which I don't really feel like Scum is likely to do that early?
Could you elaborate when you say you don't feel belief behind their thoughts?

Anyways fuck it I've got a reads list to post.

Hu Tao - Town -

Same reasons. I want klick to say why they scumread this.

Thomith - Town -

Indirect read on Thom, mentioned directly in the post about black. Go there if you wanna learn why thom is likely town.

Testa - Possible Town -

Still like testa as much as the previous read post, but since they posted more, I have more confidence in it. Honestly can see putting it up to town later.

Kittie - Possible Town -

Generally no reason to suspect currently. Last post was good but not like, spectacular.

Naerys - Neutral -

I like naerys, definitely closer to town than scum. Problem is I don't have too much confidence and they haven't been really too active. still need a bit more time to decide, but what little there is I'm liking fine enough.

Gamma - Neutral -

I don't mind gamma, but hasn't really been pinging either town or scum sensors. felt like they went into the background, honestly. It's not that you haven't posted much, you've just faded in compared to the other people I've been seeing, talking more about... etc.

Klick - Neutral -

Generally needs to elaborate more. slightly disliked their predecessor, and I don't know what the actual fuck is going through klick right now. Please, please god elaborate with your thoughts

Black - SCUM -

No further elaboration. Full, entire post for this. Go read that.

scum is Black + one of Gamma, Klick, Or Naerys I presume. Other combinations possible, but less likely to me. If anything, I should try to look at black's patterns a bit- might confirm hu tao a bit more, because I think she might of pulled the same thing she did in the recent scum round and possibly even the newbie with someone else.

You're selling me on Black. I could see a Black + Gamma team. I think you're my first true townread so far.

Why do you think a Black/Gamma scum team specifically could be possible? I haven't seen too much interactions between them that could insinuate that unless I've missed something?

Like, you seem dead-set on me being scum for…pushing a new player to provide better content??? And you additionally seem to be giving that new player a pass for what exactly???

Like, I’m not gonna play with kid gloves on, those were thrown in the wood chipper after my last off-site game. I am not gonna just let bad play snowball because a player is newer.

I dont like the aggression in this post.I agree that bad play should not be tolerated, not even newbies. But pushing for their 3rd or 4th post? That feels as if you were a shark that has smellt their prey

Do you think that aggression says anything about Gamma's alignment though? I feel like it's NAI most likely?


I'm going to properly read the Black case now.

[Thomith]

Okay, read the black case.
The effort put in makes me feel better than I did about Arko.
To be honest, I've never hugely liked meta cases - I do kind of see the comparisons, but not sure I want to 100% commit to any kind of scum read on Black solely based off a meta case alone. I find it a little weird that from what I recall, a lot of the early suspicion on Black was purely because "she's playing like she did in other scum games", which I'm not sure how I feel about.

[Thomith]

Okay, read the black case.
The effort put in makes me feel better than I did about Arko.
To be honest, I've never hugely liked meta cases - I do kind of see the comparisons, but not sure I want to 100% commit to any kind of scum read on Black solely based off a meta case alone. I find it a little weird that from what I recall, a lot of the early suspicion on Black was purely because "she's playing like she did in other scum games", which I'm not sure how I feel about.

Ok I re-read through, and to be fair, the only two people that mentioned suspecting black for mainly meta reasons, or because of previous scum behavior, was Arko and Kittiesecret.

[Thomith]

Okay, read the black case.
The effort put in makes me feel better than I did about Arko.
To be honest, I've never hugely liked meta cases - I do kind of see the comparisons, but not sure I want to 100% commit to any kind of scum read on Black solely based off a meta case alone. I find it a little weird that from what I recall, a lot of the early suspicion on Black was purely because "she's playing like she did in other scum games", which I'm not sure how I feel about.

Ok I re-read through, and to be fair, the only two people that mentioned suspecting black for mainly meta reasons, or because of previous scum behavior, was Arko and Kittiesecret.

What is your read on me?

I dislike that the Suspicion on you seems mostly on Meta, and that suspicion on you seemed to come quite quickly, but despite a lot of people suspecting you it took a while for anyone to commit to a vote.
I feel like you have responded to the suspicion well (Specifically in #98, #114 and #167), because it didn't feel like you were purely in defense mode, as you were asking questions, or otherwise furthering the narrative of the game to keep things moving.

Kind of unrelated to my read on you, but something I want to mention anyway, is I disagree with this:

*SNIP*
This case on gamma is just bad. Asking questions is like the easiest thing for scum to do so I'm not sure why gamma not asking questions is scum indicative

While I understand your point, I think it definitely matters the type of questions that are asked, and even if you aren't asking questions, whether the comments you are making are working towards the solve or progressing the game. You can pressure someone for what you feel is "bad play", but if there is no way for them to really respond (or it's unclear), that feels a little anti-town to me.

I want to tentatively read you as town I think, but as I said early, there's just that little bit of paranoia that you were trying to pocket me in the first few pages, but I'm trying to view everything else objectively rather than basing my ideas off that, because I feel like I can't objectively pressure you or read you based off something that you aren't able to control

[Thomith]

Good evening!

I just finished catching up, and there was a lot of things said with out a lot of things being said.

I am new I only have one game under my belt. And I don't have any day one reads on any one yet.

What do you think of Arko's read list? Do you agree?

I feel this is accurate for page 4.

These do not line up imo

Why don't you think they line up?

*SNIP*

Testarossa... That was a ballsy move, the e-1 on page one. Makes me think scum, paired with the fact that she didn't come back until post 78. I don't find the leaving of the vote to be indicative of anything tho, and I accept the reasoning on why it hasn't been moved.

Why do you think scum would make a ballsy move early? Would that not just bring a lot of attention to them?

You seem impossible to please atm. Despite openly admitting to faking your reaction, you still find an excuse to keep pushing me.

This seems a tad bit defensive...

Just sayin'

Do you think being defensive is indicative of alignment?

Spoiler: Gamma's Wall on Kittie

I feel like Kittie is playing a very textbook scum game here

Hellooooo everyone!

thought I would make an appearance today!

This feels extremely awkward, and common knowledge is that scum are more likely to be awkward at the start of the game.

I wanted to pop in again. I haven't had a chance to catch up. Migraine last night. I'll give everything a read this evening when I'm home and post my thoughts!

Another pop-in, this time making a promise of content. This feels quite self-conscious.

Good evening!

I just finished catching up, and there was a lot of things said with out a lot of things being said.

I am new I only have one game under my belt. And I don't have any day one reads on any one yet.

Claims to have finished catching up but shows absolutely zero work, and takes no stances whatsoever.

I'm posting on mobile please forgive my lack of formatting

GAMMA:
VOTE: kittiesecret
I don’t like the narration-esque manner of writing or the lack of any tangible content. Doesn’t feel like she actually gives a damn to solve.

Ouch! I do care to solve but nothing is going to be solved in the first 3 and a half pages.

THOMITH:
What do you think of Hu Tao's questioning of me?
What do you think of my responses to that questioning?

Honestly I'll need to go back and re read it. For more detail. But it felt like a lot of words to not say very much.

What do you think of how Black has been posting so far?

Black was scum in the one whole game I have played and totally flew under my under developed radar until much later in the game. So I can't help but have a bias in feeling she might be scum here. I feel like she is exhibiting some of the same game play here.

What do you think of Arko's read list? Do you agree?

I feel this is accurate for page 4.

TESTAROSSA:
Also happy bday Kittie, thanks for me being older than me and thus making feel myself younger.

thanks! I think...

What do you mean with a lot of things being said without being said?

Just lots of words no real meaning. But in my whole 1 game experience that seems par for the course. There isn't any substance to anything being said at this point. Anything could be read as scum or town at this point depending on the context you read it in.

HU TAO:
VOTE: gamma

Feels like pushing on a new person. They stated they were new, why not ask a specific question if you're worried she's not trying to solve?

Thanks

!

VOTE: Gamma

After being pressured, decides to go back to respond to posts. I’ll get into this with the next wall but this approach by Kittie is one I commonly see scum pull. I also think it’s a bad look that she voices assent to Arko’s early reads but fails to have one of her own on Arko? I think in that position I would have a townread on Arko as a newbie.

Good afternoon,

Popping into skim on my lunch break. I have no where to be this evening. I'll be back later with my thoughts to date.

And Thom, I'll answer your other questions then too.

Another self-conscious post promising content. This one is worse than the first imo since that one was at least posted when she had done absolutely nothing of substance.

ok here it is, I am sorry its long... expect more like this from me. and I apologize in advance for those as well. and its a little scattered. but I hope you get my point.


The whole first page caught me totally off guard going to a E-1 so quickly. I was like damn I just confirmed my role now were at E-1 WTF mang!

I don't think the back and forth about the E-1 on page 2 is indicative of any alliances, yet. as we move into the game we may be able to look back and gain some wisdom. but that's all I have to say about that.

Hey!

What do you think of Hu Tao's questioning of me?
What do you think of my responses to that questioning?

Apart from Hu Tao's gushing about the Scummies, she seemed to take issue you with you for no real reason. picking apart anything you had to say.

Why was it necessary to point out that we E-1 someone there when it was clear already? And the person unvoted immediately. Especially when it was a clear rvs wagon

Thom, was just saying what I feel a lot of us were thinking, we all just confirmed roles and now were here like damn. "pointing out" the obvious I don't think speaks to any thing other then a more wordy "Damn!" Yes we can all read what happened, but some times ya just gotta say something. and Thom went on to explain their selves.

what I think is unnecessary was how Hu Tao couldn't let it go. Everyone was moving on and Hu Tao was still posting paragraphs about it. forcing the issue.

THOMITH:
What do you think of Hu Tao's questioning of me?
What do you think of my responses to that questioning?

Honestly I'll need to go back and re read it. For more detail. But it felt like a lot of words to not say very much.

What I meant by this was everyone went round and round and round about the E1 issue and didn't go anywhere. the conversation didn't produce anything of note. but I wouldn't expect it to that early, as its still a bunch of people talking about essentially nothing.

(ok maybe I had some more too say about it *heh*)

In post 116, Naerys wrote:
Flat as in missing the desire to catch scum
I'm curious why you don't also feel this way about players like Kittie and ORAM

yea this seems off to me too... the accusation kind of came from no where with no basis...

Like, you seem dead-set on me being scum for…pushing a new player to provide better content??? And you additionally seem to be giving that new player a pass for what exactly???

Like, I’m not gonna play with kid gloves on, those were thrown in the wood chipper after my last off-site game. I am not gonna just let bad play snowball because a player is newer.

I feel like Hu Tao has taken on the pot stirring role. and I don't know how to read that yet.

I also don't expect kid gloves, my hurt was feigned. I was aware that I was behind the ball.

In post 85, Kittiesecret wrote:
Good evening!

I just finished catching up, and there was a lot of things said with out a lot of things being said.

I am new I only have one game under my belt. And I don't have any day one reads on any one yet.
In post 126, Kittiesecret wrote:
What do you think of Arko's read list? Do you agree?

I feel this is accurate for page 4.
These do not line up imo

how does this not line up???

At the time of making my post, there was little over 3 pages to read and most of that was Thom and Hu Tao going back and forth about the E-1.

Post #82 (isolation #2) » Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:02 pm

That was honestly slightly hard to make since well- 80 Posts plus the fact 3 people aren't really posting.

Arko even says it himself.


I can simultaneously feel like I don't have enough information to provide a read and feel like someone else read could be valid. and the read we're talking about here was vague at best, cuz again were working with only barely 4 pages of information.

AND black's interactions didn't feel very real when interacting with each other.

I don't love the idea of comparing to an older game, but in the (whole one) game I played with Scum-Black she didn't interact with her partner much at all.

Overall:

Arko... you really like your lists... that's all I've got to say.

Black... I'm just trying not to let my previous experience color my thoughts here. I see both similarities in play but also differences. I'm leaning more town, because Scum-Black would question and completely back off. Black here very much in the thick of it. but...I'll be watching.

Gamma... for as much as you call everyone else out for their posts, posting style or content you really haven't offered much up yourself. Almost hiding in plain sight... I feel like my vote will be staying here for the time being.

Hu Tao... I made my points above.

Klick.. came in hot, but seems alright for now, I don't know how to feel about that just at this moment.

Naerys... only like 8 posts and only 3 with some semblance of substance.. not a whole lot to go on (I know I know I'm one to talk)

Testarossa... That was a ballsy move, the e-1 on page one. Makes me think scum, paired with the fact that she didn't come back until post 78. I don't find the leaving of the vote to be indicative of anything tho, and I accept the reasoning on why it hasn't been moved.

Thomith... a very busy bee, feels town to me. *shrug*

My big problem with posting most of your content in this way is it smokescreens your play in two ways. First, you make yourself unavailable for live interaction which I think in the vast majority of scenarios is the mist important way of forming reads. The second problem is you cram your thoughts into large posts which makes them harder to process or engage with, which I think tends to have an effect of causing a short-circuit of anyone trying to parse the player that does it into going “big wall of content = town”.

You seem impossible to please atm. Despite openly admitting to faking your reaction, you still find an excuse to keep pushing me.

This seems a tad bit defensive...

Just sayin'

Useless shading.

VOTE: Kittiesecret
I genuinely think this is scum and y’all have just been bamboozled.

After reading this wall I did read back through Kittie's posts, and could potentially see where Gamma is coming from, specifically regarding Kittie potentially seeming self-concious to post content.
Specifically at the start of her wall post Kittie ended up saying this:

ok here it is, I am sorry its long... expect more like this from me. and I apologize in advance for those as well. and its a little scattered. but I hope you get my point.

This feels like something I used to do as Mafia, almost feels as if It's highlighting "Hey, look at the long content post I'm making".

Thoughts on naerys, everyone?

I dislike how 16 was never really elaborated on.
112 I thought originally seemed town motivated, while it doesn't go into huge detail, it explains at the least the first bits of her thought process.
It does seem as if Naerys sometimes is posting to seem like she is contributing, or at least be a presence (this and this come to mind), which does seem as if it could be indicative of her being Mafia. Finding it hard to get a strong read at the moment though to be honest.

[Thomith]

Thus why I'm asking about Naerys. Thoughts there?

I'm willing to explore that wagon. My vote on Thomith is pretty stale and I still don't really trust him but he's doing more than Naerys

VOTE: Naerys

This post is so bad. Stale vote? Feels like you are well aware who is town and who isnt.You are trying to position yourself on a wagon that you feel like it has chance of going through.
Doing more than me? Yeah, that is right. I sometimes get moody and lessen my activity a bit. Not AI for me though.

Stale meaning it has been there awhile. I still think Thomith could be scum. And yeah I think you could be scum too but I mainly want to put pressure on you to actually do stuff

Could I ask if that's still based on early game, or has your read changed at all? Have things I've done since made you think I'm more or less likely to be scum?

[Thomith]

I still would like to hear thoughts on Testa. Her ISO has some indicators that she's solving but it doesn't feel like anything scum couldn't come up with. Her posts have this agreeable tone that I would expect from scum that is trying to blend in while not making too many enemies. I'm not sure if she is the best fade today but I'm curious what other people think about her

While it's kind of a WIFOM reason, I do still think it would be crazy for scum to E-1 on Day 1 and bring a bunch of attention to themselves.
I do think it's worth noting that She seemed to not take a strong stance until 133, which was after the Black wagon started gaining momentum, so I could see your point about not committing to reads to not make any enemies. definitely something to keep an eye on. I do think 191 alleviates some of my concern regarding trying to avoid making enemies though, and that post seems genuine, as I did have similar concerns myself regarding the Black votes (or rather lack of votes compared to how many people said they suspected her).

Testarossa's questioning is something I like as well, because the questions she is asking do seem to be helping progress the game, get peoples thoughts, and get a better idea of where everyone stands.

I'm not sold that Testa is scum, but do want to note a Testa flip could give us some information on the reactions that happened in the early game/first few pages.

Kitties post wasn't that exciting to me, it gave more the vibes Arko's first readlist had to me with being kind of vague on most people. I don't get in contrast to that this hard scumread on Gamma.

Gamma's case feels a bit oldschool and I also think she has some points. Her energy for doubling down on Kittie here feels townie imo.

You seem impossible to please atm. Despite openly admitting to faking your reaction, you still find an excuse to keep pushing me.

I don't get this though. Why would you bother to please her or what do you mean with it?

I agree that kitties post was not that great.

Why not?


I think I want to do this for now, because of what Gamma has said, and what I also thought of in 238:
VOTE: Kittiesecret

[Thomith]

VOTE: Hu Tao

Did you ever explain this vote?

[Thomith]

VOTE: Hu Tao

Did you ever explain this vote?

I'm a little confused by this. I'm assuming you opened up Klick's iso to comment on this vote. Why didn't you take 60 seconds or so to look through it to see if he explained it? He doesn't have many posts and they're not very wordy

To be honest my point in mentioning that vote was because I didn't think they did explain the vote, but realise the sarcasm doesn't travel that well on the internet but that's my bad.
What is also my bad is I just double checked their ISO again because of you pointing it out and notice they did explain it so that's also my bad.

[Thomith]

Wait who is klick and ORAM

The people you replaced.

[Thomith]

Totally mafia
Hu Tao
Kittiesecret
Arko
Naerys
Gamma Emerald
Testarossa
Black
Thomith
Klick
ORAM

Is this real? If so we're seeing things very differently

Is this post satire?

[Thomith]

I'm pretty sure it's a shitpost.
Enchant has themselves listed as town, then every other player, including those who have replaced out as "Totally Mafia"

[Thomith]

Oh lol. I actually read it wrong. I didn't pay attention to the top half of the post and assumed the list was ordered from most scummy to least, that's my b

Ah gotcha, yeah I assumed you were just playing along but I see what you thought that list meant now

[Thomith]

Having read thom's recent posts I realized I have forgotten most of his stances since his reaction test and and went through his iso. I townread him for his dedication earlier, but also kind of think he lost his thunder since then. I think my problem here is that he comes across as a bit self-conscious going by how he seems to focus on other peoples reads on him, at least if they seem to suspect him. His Arko push looked alright on the surface, but failed imo to deliver explaining why Arko being contradicting about his Thom/Black thesis is actually scummy. ( even although it turned out just to be a typo)
Can you actually explain why you thought what was scum-indicative from Arko?

I don't think I've lost my thunder - while I'm not posting as actively as I have been (I have an assignment coming up, and am moving extremely soon), I'm still keeping up with the game, and attempting to still be commenting on as much as possible, even if it hasn't been in real time.

I question reads on myself to either a) Respond to any confusion, or defend myself if I am able to. from my perspective I know I am a mislim, so if somebody is suspecting me I need to convince them that they are wrong to avoid either being tunneled, or otherwise incorrectly suspected. b) Try and see the motivations behind the suspicion. Again I know that any suspicion on me is incorrect, so I find it useful to try and understand the reasoning for somebody suspecting me incorrectly, to try and figure out if this is just town being wrong, or scum trying to push a mislim on me.

The reason I went so hard on the contradiction because while contradictions aren't always inherently scummy, the intentions behind them definitely can be. From my perspective, there was a chance that Arko was wording things in a way that could mean he could push for either mine/blacks elimination, and potentially pivot what he "meant" the message to say depending on what wagon seemed to be gaining ground.

This is an example and I know now that this isn't what he meant, but let's say he was pushing the argument that Black flipping scum meant that I also was likely scum, however the Black wagon was not gaining enough speed, or people were looking at wagoning me instead, because of the contradiction, he could pivot onto me, and because the contradiction may have made the meaning of the post more ambiguous, he could have feasibly tried to claim that me flipping would give more information on Blacks alignment instead.
Depending on how he explained the contradiction, it felt as if he may have been trying to keep his options open on myself or Black, which read to me as potentially being opportunistic scum - again the fact that this was a typo cleared up the situation, hence why I unvoted.

It is noted that you seem to have started questioning me pretty much immediately after Black said she would not be opposed to my elimination today though.

*SNIP*

It's hard to explain but I get this gut feeling about certain people and sometimes I can't shake it. It happened in the last game I played with Crescent. They were doing all the townie things you would expect and no one really seemed to scumread them except me, and I ended up being right about them. I'll admit it's not a strong read and probably not worthy of fading him but I wouldn't be opposed going there

@Thomith if you're town then I know how frustrating this type of read can be. You've been cooperative and helpful and I still can't shake my gut feeling. I will say you have managed to keep your cool despite me having this feeling. I'm not really sure how to read that tbh. Most townies get frustrated or mad at me when my gut is wrong about them but maybe you're just level-headed

Honestly, if this were happening to me back in like 2013, I probably would be getting frustrated/angry right now (honestly, reading back some of my games from 10 years ago make me cringe now...), but I don't know how to try and change your mind if it's a gut read, because I feel like nothing I will say will realistically change your mind completely, so getting frustrated with you over it feels like a distraction and waste of time, where I think that energy would be better suited to trying to prove you wrong through my actions in the game if I can.

I questioned if your read on me had changed at all, to see if there was anything I could potentially answer for you to clear things up, but when it became apparent that it was mostly a gut feeling, I dropped it.

At the end of the day this is also a game, I'm here to have fun, not get mad over things.

[Thomith]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Enchant

[Thomith]

E-2 by the way.

[Thomith]

I am trying to figure out people. My D1 is usually bit weaker, but it gets better.
I am still on Black. I dont like her positioning upon me. She calls it "putting a pressure on me" but to me it feels like pure opportunism.

My problem is I have trouble with thinking your tunnel on Black feels like Arko's tunnel on her for example. Your play comes off as more static here, kind of like scum that doesn't know how to find a better target and how to engage with it. While I am no fan of the beetlejuicing argument, it's difficult to ignore how you were more present the very moment the wagon on you was formed. Can you explain why you think Black comes across as more opportunistic and with no intention of scumhunting here?

Also what's your take on Arko, Enchant slot and Thom?

Enchant likes to troll at D1, so its hard to read them.
Arko is thoughtful, feels like town.
I dont like Thom´s jumping on Enchant so null tier for now.

What do you think of Kittie's vote for Enchant?

[Thomith]

Looked back at the Enchant votes to see if there may have been any bussing on this wagon.

Kittiesecret - could be scum
Arko - leaning town, like the reads posts
Naerys - could be scum
Gamma Emerald - null maybe leaning town. Idk
Testarossa - maybe scum?
Black - prob town
Thomith - null
Enchant - no clue how to read
Klick - maybe scum, never explained scumread on me

Rough idea of how I'm feeling at the moment

Enchant replaced klick FYI

Oh LOL then I'm definitely fine voting Enchant

VOTE: Enchant

Not sure of the vote count

I feel pretty good that this vote seemed genuine - I'm townreading Hu Tao anyway, and being quick onto the Enchant wagon makes me feel better about them than I already did.

UNVOTE:

You should both consider that you may be voting for limbait and join me on the Enchant wagon. I don't think I would be opposed going Testa or Thomith but I think their activity level and the solving nature of their posts could be useful even if they're scum here. As of right now those are the only 3 players I'd be willing to fade

I could get on board with this if only get reduce the chaotic energy to make the game more readable.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Enchant

There's a world I guess where this is scum sheeping things that people have already said, but at the same time, newer players can also do the same thing so this is NAI at best I feel like. I'm willing to POE Kittie for this, I think at least for today.

VOTE: Enchant

Not much to this vote, again there's the WIFOM of does Mafia hammer their partner on Day 1, especially when the game was relatively split at this point, and wagons kept trading throughout the day. I feel like I'm also willing to POE Gamma here I think, again at least for now.

[Thomith]

Hmm the question is would be scum so bold as to bus their partner at d1?

I mean it's possible, but it didn't look like anyone else that voted Enchant wasnt doing it genuinely, at least to me.

The only vote that's hard to read is Gamma's, but tbh I'm inclined to believe Gamma is probably town here.

As Gamma said I'm not sure why you claimed, but that's fine I guess.

I'm going to need to reread everyone that wasnt on the Enchant wagon at some point soon, but right now I think I'm leaning between Arko/Testa as the last scum.

[Thomith]

I am trying to figure out people. My D1 is usually bit weaker, but it gets better.
I am still on Black. I dont like her positioning upon me. She calls it "putting a pressure on me" but to me it feels like pure opportunism.

My problem is I have trouble with thinking your tunnel on Black feels like Arko's tunnel on her for example. Your play comes off as more static here, kind of like scum that doesn't know how to find a better target and how to engage with it. While I am no fan of the beetlejuicing argument, it's difficult to ignore how you were more present the very moment the wagon on you was formed. Can you explain why you think Black comes across as more opportunistic and with no intention of scumhunting here?

Also what's your take on Arko, Enchant slot and Thom?

Enchant likes to troll at D1, so its hard to read them.
Arko is thoughtful, feels like town.
I dont like Thom´s jumping on Enchant so null tier for now.

What do you think of Kittie's vote for Enchant?

I think I'd still like you to answer this please Naerys.

[Thomith]

Inclined to think it rather was a bus, at least by gut. I can see a world with Arko as partner though. Ultimately I think it might be smarter to lim in me/Arko today as it's the smaller lim pool to clear. In worst case, if it should go till D4 half the Enchant wagon is going to get killed anyway, the off-wagon pool most likely never.

Is it only because of gut that you think it was a bus, or is there any other indicators that make you think it was a bus?

I doubt Gamma is the busser if it was a bus. Nobody had expressed intent to hammer, and Black seemed to be having a relatively hard time convincing people to jump on the wagon in the first place (it took a good few pages before the wagon grew), so I don't see Gamma hammering that early as the partner in my opinion.

[Thomith]

Actually I guess Enchant did fakeclaim IC. Hm.

[Thomith]

I don't really understand ORAM's reason for voting Gamma tbh. Like there wasn't any real interaction between Gamma and Thomith for her to follow up after the vote anyway and Thomith brushed Gamma aside pretty fast anyway.

I like their post and timing though with looking elsewhere and felt kind of similar about the situation minus the Black townread. Probably my first positive vibe.

I feel like there's a world where this is Scum trying to make their partner look good, while giving enough distance to avoid a pairing forming - stating that she doesn't understand the read, but also pointing out that she gets a good vibe on the slot.

Hu Tao looks alright as well. Her vote looked at first kind of like by textbook tbh, however I find that more nai. Everything that followed up looked good to me.

I disliked Thomith's early "bait" posts more tbh and that he ignored Black when he thought of himself acting suspicious for going for an easy wagon, when she basically the same. Probably in line with his read on her though, which formed shortly after that.
I don't think he acts like scum that got caught redhanded though. He just seems overexplaining in general to me, at least his dedication seems genuine.

This was made after multiple people had already started jumping on me for the early pages, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong), this was after Gamma, Hu Tao and Black started pressuring me for it, which I think is worth noting.

What pings you as scummy about ORAM, Arkos?

It's funny that you see a possible Thom/Black team. I thought they are t/s at most as they were acting too much together in like 3 situations at the beginning.
What feels similar about Black to your last game with her and would rather lean scum than town here?

I think I would put Naerys a bit more below, I kind of disliked her unvote, although for me it's more a gutread.

Arko's posts however...meh. I'm getting bad vibes here

I see your point regarding his Thom read. I have my thoughts about that as well, which reads else do you dislike though? Your readlists are pretty similar after all, so I figure you must be unhappy with his reasoning.

Speaking of that, on what is your scumlean on ORAM, now Klick, based on?

These two posts seem like they could be subtly defending the Enchant slot? Pointing it out, but I do want to reread the context of the posts around it to see if I get a different vibe than I did just from the ISO.

[Thomith]

I am 1-shot bulletproof btw.

Sus

Why don't you like this claim?

[Thomith]

I actually believe Thomith about his thought process, I think it's flawed and more complicated a plan than necessary but it feels real to me.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald
If you thought Thomith was being weird, why vote him with no followup? One could say you've voted and explained later yourself.

I think Black and Hu Tao can be town for now. My gut says at least one of the scumteam is in the group of players who haven't engaged yet, but it's early in the day and as they get involved they should become sortable.

This makes me feel better about Gamma being town I think. From my POV, ORAM here was Scum defending a townie to look good should I have flipped Day 1, so the vote on Gamma seemed part of that defense.

I don't know how to analyse the second point without it being pure WIFOM, so pointing it out, but leaving it alone for now.

Got a bit of time before work

3: Klick voting Hu Tao: Can I get some like, thoughts on this vote? you are probably the first person here to have something besides a town read, let alone having a scum read. Would also be nice to hear your thoughts on more than just Hu Tao though.

I feel like the townreads on Hu Tao are rather weak reasoning for how strongly they're being expressed
I see no real reason she couldn't be scum

Her posting feels... careful, is probably the best way to describe it? I feel like there's a deliberate effort to make her posts feel like accurate description and to put out a large amount of content
I'm not really feeling the belief behind those thoughts though

This feels like trying to push someone who is widely townread to try and muddy the waters a bit.
I guess there's a world where this is a bus, but with how townread Hu Tao was at that point it feels like that would just be counter productive I guess?

Also Arko mafia

Eh. Throw someone else under bus to save self?

I guess i can try that.

VOTE: Arko

I don't know how to read these weird interactions with Arko. Want to point them out, but it's Enchant, so who really knows that they mean.

[Thomith]

Kittie's vote on Enchant didn't seem like a bus, so I feel better about her too.

[Thomith]

I don't agree with the statement that I've been disappearing into the background.

[Thomith]

*SNIP*

Thomith... a very busy bee, feels town to me. *shrug*

Since you are now seemingly scumreading me, can you explain what you meant by this originally? What changed between this post and now?

[Thomith]

Mainly the stance on the flipped scum feels like what I’d expect scum to do
I also think the Black push is concerning in retrospect

I was going to defend Arko here, and say I didn't think he was the potential scum on the Black Wagon, because I remembered the sequence of events incorrectly, and thought he was one of the first on the wagon, but on a reread he was actually third.
Reading back though, it didn't seem like there was a huge amount of substance that seemed to be contributing to the Black Wagon, as Testarossa's vote was RVS still at that point I believe, and Naerys voted Black in 112, but this also seemed like early game vibes more than anything.
All this to say I think Arko's vote was the one that actually seemed to put pressure on to get the wagon going. There didn't seem to be any other strong wagon going at that point in time, so it wasn't as if this was a counter wagon in response to something I don't think.

There seemed to be multiple people suspecting Black, but there was a hesitance to put her at E-1, again pointing it out, not too sure how to read into that at the moment.

On a reread I like Hu Tao less than I did. Their early game questioning is what seemed to be carrying the Town Read for me, they seemed to be one of those people who while off the Black wagon, were kind of advocating for it still? Not sold though because Klick voting them for no reason as a "bus" would still feel quite weird to me. The early vote on Enchant also makes me still lean town I think.
I like Gamma more than I did, it seems to be applying pressure to get answers, but doesn't seem to be "stuck" on votes too long once getting reactions/answers to its pressure.

Naerys was still putting pressure on Black in 240, despite the wagon seemingly being dismantled for the most part at that point, while Testarossa jumped onto the Naerys wagon as soon as it started to pick up speed again.

Testarossa also jumping in with 339 to start questioning me, right after Black said she would potentially be willing to fade me still honestly makes me just think Testarossa could just be opportunistic scum trying to find a counter-wagon to Klick/Enchant (I think I mentioned that this felt weird to me before, but reading this again immediately pinged as weird to me again).

My gut is telling me there's a scum in Naerys/Testarossa.
I think I want to do this for now, to try and get things moving.
VOTE: Testarossa

[Thomith]

Anyways fuck it I've got a reads list to post.

Hu Tao - Town -

Same reasons. I want klick to say why they scumread this.

Thomith - Town -

Indirect read on Thom, mentioned directly in the post about black. Go there if you wanna learn why thom is likely town.

Testa - Possible Town -

Still like testa as much as the previous read post, but since they posted more, I have more confidence in it. Honestly can see putting it up to town later.

Kittie - Possible Town -

Generally no reason to suspect currently. Last post was good but not like, spectacular.

Naerys - Neutral -

I like naerys, definitely closer to town than scum. Problem is I don't have too much confidence and they haven't been really too active. still need a bit more time to decide, but what little there is I'm liking fine enough.

Gamma - Neutral -

I don't mind gamma, but hasn't really been pinging either town or scum sensors. felt like they went into the background, honestly. It's not that you haven't posted much, you've just faded in compared to the other people I've been seeing, talking more about... etc.

Klick - Neutral -

Generally needs to elaborate more. slightly disliked their predecessor, and I don't know what the actual fuck is going through klick right now. Please, please god elaborate with your thoughts

Black - SCUM -

No further elaboration. Full, entire post for this. Go read that.

scum is Black + one of Gamma, Klick, Or Naerys I presume. Other combinations possible, but less likely to me. If anything, I should try to look at black's patterns a bit- might confirm hu tao a bit more, because I think she might of pulled the same thing she did in the recent scum round and possibly even the newbie with someone else.

You're selling me on Black. I could see a Black + Gamma team. I think you're my first true townread so far.

I don't like Black's 180 on me. Seems like omgus. Unless they are known for being defensive in this way?

These were the two posts specifically that seemed like you were giving yourself a reason to jump onto the Black wagon, saying you could be convinced, throwing subtle sus on Black without voting/putting at E-1. It's a minor thing, but those two posts gave me pause on the reread.

At the end of the day though, Klick could have been the scum in that group who didn't vote Black but subtly were making it seem like they may have - I forget who said it earlier (will go back and grab the quote) but the reluctance to put Black at E-1 from Klick could have been because scum was on the wagon already, which is why I'm more between Naerys/Testarossa at the moment.

[Thomith]

It's weird though how Klick was all fine with the Black wagon, but explicitly said he didn't want to give it further momentum. Either he just wanted to avoid being the E-1 vote or his partner was already there and they didn't want to be both on a potential lim.

Klick was townreading him and Arko always had that slot in their nullreads, but always so phrased like "could be scum, but also town". Although he had Klick as second lowest read, but still as neutral. By reads it could fit well for keeping a partner warm. I still kind of think that whole meta case on Black was too over the top for scum though.

Leaving Naerys out, because of what I said before.

This is the post I was thinking of regarding Klick not joining the Black wagon.

[Thomith]

Yes but clearly my read changed after I talked with black directly when she was at e-2

True. Again, it was just something that pinged weirdly to me on the reread while specifically looking at how wagons were forming/changing, because of how quickly you were on the Enchant wagon, I still feel like you are likely town, it was just that time period specifically that I didn't notice before that gave me weird vibes.

[Thomith]

Understandable, just trying to find who has scummy intentions with their reads here.

You're fine I don't mind people questioning what I have to say. I'll be honest I feel like I'm struggling to find direction this game so being questioned helps that a bit, so works out for me too.

[Thomith]

Testarossa also jumping in with 339 to start questioning me, right after Black said she would potentially be willing to fade me still honestly makes me just think Testarossa could just be opportunistic scum trying to find a counter-wagon to Klick/Enchant (I think I mentioned that this felt weird to me before, but reading this again immediately pinged as weird to me again).

Ngl, I already said it once, but these self-conscious lines ping me so badly about you, that I can never commit to a townread on you.

Why do you think I would go for you as counterwagon without even suggesting you as option via vote? Read the room, at that point you were hardly scumread enough to get limmed, rather town or null, and Black even said she would rather keep you around for another day. Going for Kittie would have been better and more in line. Or voting Enchant, either get bus cred or the wagon dissolves because people don't trust me.

Can you explain why you joined the Enchant wagon? Also why do you think it's not Arko? He was putting pressure on Black, yes. But that doesn't mean anything ai. Scum can coast on tunneling as well.

Can you explain what you mean about my "self-conscious lines" because I genuinely dont know what you mean when you're saying that.

Just because you arent voting someone doesnt mean you're not suggesting them as an option.
My wagon had grown once before, so it's not out of the realm of possibilities that it could have happened again, while Kittie's wagon stagnated after only a few votes.

In all honesty I was following Black with the Enchant vote. I didn't like the push on her so thought there was a big enough chance of her being Town to see where the wagon went, and if enchant flipped town I feel it would have still given us a decent amount of information on black/others on the wagon. Admittedly I didnt expect the hammer to happen so quickly.

I haven't eliminated Arko by any means, but he seemed to be the most active voice against Black, where at the time, the Enchant slot wasnt in much danger, so I just dont know if scum randomly throw themselves in the spotlight like that.

[Thomith]

In post 204, Kittiesecret wrote:
*SNIP*

Thomith... a very busy bee, feels town to me. *shrug*
Since you are now seemingly scumreading me, can you explain what you meant by this originally? What changed between this post and now?

Originally, I felt your interactions felt very genuine and in line with trying to solve.

but watching as the game goes on, your posts feel flip floppy.

you went out of your way to build a case on 3 players and then arguably chose the one with the weakest case to cast your vote against. because they called you out for exactly what I'm saying above.

Testarossa, i feel is genuine in their quest to solve. she is interacting and asking questions. responding and putting forth good theories.

I don't think were going to hear from arko. i think we either elim the slot and go forth with the players we have. or hope that we get a good replacement.

I'm torn on where to put my vote at this time.

This feels like a misrep to me, which I'm finding myself disliking. To insinuate that I am voting Testarossa simply because they have suspected me is not true. I have stated more than those reasons in 428, and in 449 I explain why I discounted Arko for now.

I "went out of my way" to start questioning 3 players at the start of the day because the game was not really moving, so I did what I could to start generating discussion.

How do my posts feel flip floppy?

[Thomith]

Spoiler: Testarossa Post 480

Can you explain what you mean about my "self-conscious lines" because I genuinely dont know what you mean when you're saying that.

Just because you arent voting someone doesnt mean you're not suggesting them as an option.
My wagon had grown once before, so it's not out of the realm of possibilities that it could have happened again, while Kittie's wagon stagnated after only a few votes.

In all honesty I was following Black with the Enchant vote. I didn't like the push on her so thought there was a big enough chance of her being Town to see where the wagon went, and if enchant flipped town I feel it would have still given us a decent amount of information on black/others on the wagon. Admittedly I didnt expect the hammer to happen so quickly.

I think we talked about it before. I am on the fence about it for the whole game as it could just be a playstyle thing. Everytime someone scumreads you or feels uncertain about you, you are immediately summoned and jump straight out of the box to question the person. I can see why you would act like that as town to form better reads, but it also just looks like scum that is concerned to stay safe and tries to shoot down any possible suspicions.

I am questioning peoples reads on anyone, to try and figure out motivations for those reads. From my POV, anyone who is saying their are suspicious of me are wrong, because they are Town, so I'm trying to use my questioning of them to figure out if it's Town that is just wrong, or scum pushing a townie.

And you think you would have been so much better as counterwagon than Kittie? You, who wasn't even widely scumread besides maybe by Black? Like, did you get the vibe from my post that I was trying to convince Black to move away from Klick? Why should I act all passive as partner when I see the focus shifting to Klick? I don't see what you would see here.

The only people who were even considering Kittie was me/Gamma from what I remember, so it's not like Kittie had much wagon potential either. My wagon already grew once, with a lot of people still questioning my slot significantly, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that I could have been wagoned again.

The argument is a bit funny to me, when I look how you just started immediately questioning Klick when Black started mentioning and voting Klick. With a question that Klick already had answered before, to you even. If you were just following Black then why did you wait in doing so until Hu Tao has joined as well?

I actually don't know what to say here other than I decided to follow Black when I voted. I wasn't following Black the whole day, I just decided to follow her on that particular wagon.

For that matter, why not also joining the Naerys wagon back then (who was actually pushing for a Black lim) when it had three votes and you weren't voting anywhere else and were already town on Black anyway? You went for Kittie later and I have no issues about that one. Going by 238 you didn't seemed really town on Naerys though.

I didn't have a strong read on Naerys, and at that point in time I was beginning to suspect Kittie because of Gamma's wall. When I voted Enchant, I wasn't sure about anything else at that point in time, which is why i voted.

Not really sure how to format this, so I've just put my answers in bold.

Elements, can you explain your progression from Kittie as town down to your scumreads? Also why do you think that Thom is scum?

Kittie's position is more poe where Thom I think is scum
the tr of kittie was partly based on her being a newer player giving the benefit of the doubt to some of the "i'll read up in a bit" and "i'm not really sure about anything" vibe posts but then i remembered something either someone said or a game daisy was in where a newb!scum did exactly that just to be under the radar so that faded the bod. Wasn't a fan of the readlist especially the reasoning for the read on you. Generally not done anything that's pinged me as towny since that post i vibed with

Thomith I feel I may be tunneling on because of 107 which I can just see as replacement scum coming in and voting a buddy. I don't think I'll be able to see it a different way unless Thomith flips town.
Skimming Thom's iso I've only just properly clocked that their first vote was on ORAM which has given me pause
That being said 411 and 417 really rub me the wrong way
A lot of the read is based on partner equity

Why do 411 and 417 rub you the wrong way?

I also don't see why you aren't entertaining the alternative that ORAM/Klick were defending me because I'm Town, so they would look good after my flip? Both of those posts that you think is them buddying with me came when I still had heat on me Day 1.

I like elements, just like I like arko so I don't see myself voting there today

I find myself agreeing.
I liked Arko's case on Black, in that the effort did seem town motivated, the same way that Elements' reread posts seem like they are trying to solve for the most part.

My POE at the moment I think is Hu Tao/Gamma - I feel good about them and still think those slots are Town.
I feel pretty good about Elements, but Gamma does make a good point in 502 which makes me not want to fully commit to eliminating them as a suspect. I feel a similar way about Kittiesecret, I feel pretty good but not quite enough to eliminate her yet.

I don't think I'm willing to vote Elements right now. At most I might compromise on Naerys I think.

[Thomith]

I also don't see why you aren't entertaining the alternative that ORAM/Klick were defending me because I'm Town, so they would look good after my flip? Both of those posts that you think is them buddying with me came when I still had heat on me Day 1.

I was not aware of this context
I'll have another look when I've got time

This might change my view on Klick's post depending on how many were on your wagon at the time

I jumped straight to towning a partner rather than reading a town is because in isolation those two posts just seem like passing comments for the sake of making them, rather than defending the person a wagon is on

This is why context is important

For full clarity, at the time of the Klick post I believe that people were beginning to leaving my wagon, but still stating suspicion on me but wanting to move onto other reads at that point in time if I remember correctly.

The ORAM post was when people had begun wagoning me though.

[Thomith]

My POE at the moment I think is Hu Tao/Gamma - I feel good about them and still think those slots are Town.
I feel pretty good about Elements, but Gamma does make a good point in 502 which makes me not want to fully commit to eliminating them as a suspect. I feel a similar way about Kittiesecret, I feel pretty good but not quite enough to eliminate her yet.

I don't understand most of this? You're saying you think your poe is town? Then why are they your poe?

I'm new to this terminology , wasn't a thing when I last played.
I'm eliminating them from my POE I guess is what I should have said?
Basically I want to eliminate them from the list of people I think could be Mafia.

[Thomith]

Spoiler: Testarossa Post 480

Can you explain what you mean about my "self-conscious lines" because I genuinely dont know what you mean when you're saying that.

Just because you arent voting someone doesnt mean you're not suggesting them as an option.
My wagon had grown once before, so it's not out of the realm of possibilities that it could have happened again, while Kittie's wagon stagnated after only a few votes.

In all honesty I was following Black with the Enchant vote. I didn't like the push on her so thought there was a big enough chance of her being Town to see where the wagon went, and if enchant flipped town I feel it would have still given us a decent amount of information on black/others on the wagon. Admittedly I didnt expect the hammer to happen so quickly.

I think we talked about it before. I am on the fence about it for the whole game as it could just be a playstyle thing. Everytime someone scumreads you or feels uncertain about you, you are immediately summoned and jump straight out of the box to question the person. I can see why you would act like that as town to form better reads, but it also just looks like scum that is concerned to stay safe and tries to shoot down any possible suspicions.

I am questioning peoples reads on anyone, to try and figure out motivations for those reads. From my POV, anyone who is saying their are suspicious of me are wrong, because they are Town, so I'm trying to use my questioning of them to figure out if it's Town that is just wrong, or scum pushing a townie.

And you think you would have been so much better as counterwagon than Kittie? You, who wasn't even widely scumread besides maybe by Black? Like, did you get the vibe from my post that I was trying to convince Black to move away from Klick? Why should I act all passive as partner when I see the focus shifting to Klick? I don't see what you would see here.

The only people who were even considering Kittie was me/Gamma from what I remember, so it's not like Kittie had much wagon potential either. My wagon already grew once, with a lot of people still questioning my slot significantly, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that I could have been wagoned again.

The argument is a bit funny to me, when I look how you just started immediately questioning Klick when Black started mentioning and voting Klick. With a question that Klick already had answered before, to you even. If you were just following Black then why did you wait in doing so until Hu Tao has joined as well?

I actually don't know what to say here other than I decided to follow Black when I voted. I wasn't following Black the whole day, I just decided to follow her on that particular wagon.

For that matter, why not also joining the Naerys wagon back then (who was actually pushing for a Black lim) when it had three votes and you weren't voting anywhere else and were already town on Black anyway? You went for Kittie later and I have no issues about that one. Going by 238 you didn't seemed really town on Naerys though.

I didn't have a strong read on Naerys, and at that point in time I was beginning to suspect Kittie because of Gamma's wall. When I voted Enchant, I wasn't sure about anything else at that point in time, which is why i voted.

Not really sure how to format this, so I've just put my answers in bold.

Elements, can you explain your progression from Kittie as town down to your scumreads? Also why do you think that Thom is scum?

Kittie's position is more poe where Thom I think is scum
the tr of kittie was partly based on her being a newer player giving the benefit of the doubt to some of the "i'll read up in a bit" and "i'm not really sure about anything" vibe posts but then i remembered something either someone said or a game daisy was in where a newb!scum did exactly that just to be under the radar so that faded the bod. Wasn't a fan of the readlist especially the reasoning for the read on you. Generally not done anything that's pinged me as towny since that post i vibed with

Thomith I feel I may be tunneling on because of 107 which I can just see as replacement scum coming in and voting a buddy. I don't think I'll be able to see it a different way unless Thomith flips town.
Skimming Thom's iso I've only just properly clocked that their first vote was on ORAM which has given me pause
That being said 411 and 417 really rub me the wrong way
A lot of the read is based on partner equity

Why do 411 and 417 rub you the wrong way?

I also don't see why you aren't entertaining the alternative that ORAM/Klick were defending me because I'm Town, so they would look good after my flip? Both of those posts that you think is them buddying with me came when I still had heat on me Day 1.

I like elements, just like I like arko so I don't see myself voting there today

I find myself agreeing.
I liked Arko's case on Black, in that the effort did seem town motivated, the same way that Elements' reread posts seem like they are trying to solve for the most part.

My POE at the moment I think is Hu Tao/Gamma - I feel good about them and still think those slots are Town.
I feel pretty good about Elements, but Gamma does make a good point in 502 which makes me not want to fully commit to eliminating them as a suspect. I feel a similar way about Kittiesecret, I feel pretty good but not quite enough to eliminate her yet.

I don't think I'm willing to vote Elements right now. At most I might compromise on Naerys I think.

VOTE: Thomith
Your PoE is atrocious. Are you seriously assuming scum bussed in a micro?

I used PoE incorrectly as Elements pointed out later, we figured out more accurately my PoE was Testarossa/Naerys, while I'm still not fully decided on Kittie/Elements.

[Thomith]

Okay, so it does look like I'm likely the elimination today so I want to say some things before that.

Gamma/Hu Tao, I do believe our wincon here is for you both to get on the same page if you both do survive the night. Obviously make your own reads on each other, but I do think you are both the most townie in my mind so am conscious that if you both are able to make a strong townbloc, that you could solve the game together.

Gamma, I do urge that you at the very least reconsider your scumread on Elements, because I do think that both Arko and Elements have shown a lot of effort that I'm reading as town. Again I could be wrong about them, but at the very least I ask that you go over them again and see if you feel the same.

Elements/Kittiesecrets, I think you both could very much be town, I'm just not 100% convinced. I do ask that you consider what I have been saying when I flip Town. I am aware that I could be tunelled on Testarossa, so don't just insta-lim them tomorrow, but at the very least, I ask that you relook into Testarossa/Naerys, because I do think it could be as simple as the solve being one of them.

If there is anything anyone wants to ask, I'm around now for a bit. I'll claim if/when requested.

[Thomith]

Vanilla Townie

[Thomith]

I don't think Thom is scum here. Is there anyone else we can settle on?

The only way I see the vote changing is if me you Gamma and Naerys vote together, because I dont see anyone voting me changing their vote.
Maybe Elements would change, but im not positive.

[Thomith]

Maybe my reads are bad and game ends with Thom, I'll laugh

It won't.

[Thomith]

I already stated my 2 scumreads are naerys and kittie. But no one wants them.

I dont think Naerys can happen today, because Naerys isnt going to vote herself

[Thomith]

Sorry Thomith, I won't be ablemto read and check the context if things before deadline but if someone makes a kittiecase I could be persuaded there

I mean, I'm not going to make a case on Kittie just to save myself, because I dont think that Kittie is Mafia...

[Thomith]

Ah, Gotcha

[Thomith]

I would like to see this move, I feel confident about where my vote is currently based on the amount of time Thom had to claim with the axe hanging over his head. And the lack of a defense. If not I think the lim will give us a good amount if information going into day 3.

When else was I meant to claim? Genuinely curious - when I last played, you claimed at E-1 either when someone declares intent to hammer, or when somebody asks you to when you are at E-1. That's what I did here, I was at E-1, Hu Tao asked me to claim, so I did.

Every single question that has come up about my game, and everything that people have called me out for that made me suspicious I have responded to, and explained myself the best I can. I actually don't understand what else I am meant to defend.

[Thomith]

Thom do you still tr kittie?

The issue I'm having is for the most part I do. At least I did up until her last few posts, that just seem to be blatant misreps of me... I'm also worried I'm leaning this way because it seems to be the only other option other than me right now, and I'm just worried my judgement might be getting slightly clouded because of that.

The things I mentioned in 238 are what made me question her to begin with, but at the same time the things that did ping me as potentially scum motivated, could also just be coming from a newer player.

The issue I'm having as well is that I came into today thinking that Scum probably didn't bus yesterday, which made me come into today townreading everyone on the wagon by default.
381 was where Kittie voted Enchant, putting them at E-1, which seemed genuine to me?

[Thomith]

I feel like there's a big possibility that Kittie is Town that's just tunneled on another Townie...

[Thomith]

Scum could definitely bus. I do it all the time so I don't think you should Town read someone just for voting out scum day 1

You're right, but it's not just that.
The Enchant wagon felt genuine which is why I didn't think scum were on it. It felt like genuine frustration at the chaos they brought.
I felt like Kittie's responses to questioning early Day 1 for the most part was good, and I did get the vibes from her posts that she was genuinely trying to figure things out, until she tunneled on me today (but again, that could be a Townie Tunneling)

[Thomith]

I want to at least sleep on this I think (I'm sorry...)

As I said, I'm worried that I'm being slightly influenced on the fact that Kittie is the only other option right now, and the fact that she has been coming for me today, and it may be clouding my objective judgement of her, and whether I think she is Town or Scum.

[Thomith]

UNVOTE: