Mini Normal 2323 [There is an Inventor] | FIN

[davesaz]

Agree Katsuki's post is interesting.
Makes me think it's my first time witnessing a slip, after lecturing people for a couple months on how they don't happen.

[davesaz]

The other obvious possibility is joke. I don't have enough background to know how likely that is from Katsuki.

[davesaz]

Thomith's mention of werewolves would have made my eyeballs go click but it's a reasonable guess given clues in the rules post.

[davesaz]

Will Gamma's thing be a success
or will it dissolve into a big mess?

[davesaz]

Hmm, ok. I think if I were scum in Thomith's shoes I would feel like I was caught for the wrong reasons and I would want to ask you about the specifics behind your read so I could maybe try and dispute them. I would be more interested in what you think I was doing differently so I could take note of that and try to avoid it in future scum games. He didn't really seem curious at all, he was just like "yeah you're probably right"

But I understand that people have different reactions to things than others so I don't think this is a super solid way of reading him

Was this expectation specific to Thomith or your general thought on how scum might react in that case?

[davesaz]

Thomith's mention of werewolves would have made my eyeballs go click but it's a reasonable guess given clues in the rules post.

Wdym?

The anti-town faction would know what their name is. If there were not other clues that it isn't "mafia" like usual, it would be potentially interesting to mention it.

[davesaz]

Any thoughts on davesaz?

It feels less potentially opportunistic than the other 3 posts I mentioned so I wasnt overly focusing on it tbh.
I feel like it seems similar to my initial reaction, I just didn't say something sooner because I didn't want to guide your response to the questioning.

Mmm.

The difference between you and him is that, unlike you, he doesn't lack the background knowledge on me to at least have some sort of thought. He's more than happy to entertain a serious push on me if it develops, yet left room to backtrack with that

"I don't have enough background"

as his pretense to remain non-committal on providing any sort of useful comment.

FWIW, the last time I played with him, I literally posted nothing but pepes for the first 3/4 gamedays in team mafia.

Oh, was that you? It was years ago and I absolutely hated it.

[davesaz]

Ask anyone here if I'm ever commital on anything in the first 24 hours.

[davesaz]

Thomith's mention of werewolves would have made my eyeballs go click but it's a reasonable guess given clues in the rules post.

Wdym?

The anti-town faction would know what their name is. If there were not other clues that it isn't "mafia" like usual, it would be potentially interesting to mention it.

Again, it is literally mentioned in the opening posts that this is a villager vs werewolf game?

ikr, is everyone in this game high or what?

I see that very few people understand the difference between "did" and "would have".

This, and the Katsuki-related post, are jokes on the theme that

I do not believe slips happen

ever

.

[davesaz]

I see that very few people understand the difference between "did" and "would have".

This, and the Katsuki-related post, are jokes on the theme that

I do not believe slips happen

ever

.

So what's your conclusion then?

None of it is meaningful.

[davesaz]

I really don't like this trend of early self voting.

[davesaz]

Is that a weak reason for a vote? Sure. Did I use it anyway? Yes, because it's early and I don't really have solid scumreads right now.

This seems like a town pov.

[davesaz]

The rest of his posting has been underwhelming

The game is rather underwhelming so far, why should I be any different?

[davesaz]

Black and Dragon feel town.
I want to look at Gamma's vote. I have a potentially interesting take on the rhyme gimmick but will need more data to firm it up.
Naerys reason on Thomith feels genuine from memory but I don't think it's correct.
Hu Tao is showing a lot of range on having a variable play style. Despite noticing that I will have to re-read a couple things that I'm not sure on whether they're wrong theory or disingenous.

[davesaz]

convenient excuse of "oh I forgot"

Forgetting is a RL thing. Accusing me of lying about RL is a pretty dangerous thing to do.

[davesaz]

Black and Dragon feel town.
I want to look at Gamma's vote. I have a potentially interesting take on the rhyme gimmick but will need more data to firm it up.
Naerys reason on Thomith feels genuine from memory but I don't think it's correct.
Hu Tao is showing a lot of range on having a variable play style. Despite noticing that I will have to re-read a couple things that I'm not sure on whether they're wrong theory or disingenous.

What makes you feel like Black and Dragon are town?

I feel like they are trying to interact in ways that develop reads.

[davesaz]

I’ve only *done* this once before to memory, so I’m concerned
What data davesaz thinks he can upturn

Behavior in a game that isn't the same can result in corrections to player connections.

[davesaz]

Black and Dragon feel town.
I want to look at Gamma's vote. I have a potentially interesting take on the rhyme gimmick but will need more data to firm it up.
Naerys reason on Thomith feels genuine from memory but I don't think it's correct.
Hu Tao is showing a lot of range on having a variable play style. Despite noticing that I will have to re-read a couple things that I'm not sure on whether they're wrong theory or disingenous.

Can you tell me what about dragon is town?

I gave an answer to this exact question 5 posts ago. Posting that seems to me to be motivated by discovering others' alignment.

[davesaz]

Hey Dave, as a person, do you think you've changed (much or not) in the past 8 years?

I don't know, maybe a little. Nowhere near as much as I'd expect someone under 30 or under 20 to change in the same time.

[davesaz]

I think Katsuki's claim in RVS was a reaction test, not a joke as a lot of people seem to be saying.

Extend that thought to some of the reactions to Katsuki. Might any of them also be reaction tests?

[davesaz]

I think voting yourself is kinda counterintuitive to this though - it's only going to scare people away usually, not build the wagon. Which is why it's sus you did it twice

I really wish the trend of self voting would stop.

[davesaz]

I don't really know what to think about Dave

Why not?

[davesaz]

I'm liking Black's thought process so far. I think it's not totally out of her scum range but it does feel genuine and I feel okay townleaning her for now.

I don't fully see the Hu Tao scum read so I'm gonna try something different

VOTE: Gamma

What about her scumread on me do you not like?

I like the scumread, I just feel your response to it was fine I guess

you're putting reads in my mouth, for that I'm displeased
refrain from doing it again or you may wind up deceased
I've not spoken a word about Hu Tao as of yet
so I don't see why that relates to the vote that I get

Two people in this game can read Gamma by tone.
Posting in rhyme takes them out of their zone.
Why does town want to be harder to read?
To a scumcase will this analysis lead?

[davesaz]

It's hard to describe but Dave's iso just feels a little... stiff

It feels like he's trying to be careful or something

I don't like his initial reaction to Katsuki's juggernaut claim (70) and I think him being so easily open to the idea of finally witnessing a slip doesn't mesh with his opinion that slips never happen in 213

I'm not a big fan of him asking me a question in 97 and then not following up with my answer

I think a lot of his posts feel like filler posts or ways to seem busy without actually solving much. There's a little bit of solving in 316 but these are just blanket statements that scum could easily come up with. His Gamma train of thought from this post has gone no where and he doesn't seem to have any interest digging further, and then the Naerys/Hu takes both give off the vibe that dave needs to reread or look further but I get the feeling he is just going to leave these reads hanging

His mentioning of hating self votes a couple of times (251, 399) just feels a little performative imo

Not sure why you'd think this instead of thinking I'm posting exactly what I think with no filters at all.

[davesaz]

Why haven't you gone back to your To Do List in 316 yet?

Yesterday up to when I started posting today, for the most obvious reason of all.

408 is part of the followup.
I can't expand much on the reason for the Hu Tao observation without getting into a forbidden subject. The correct way to read that comment is that it's going to make it hard to get a read on her.

[davesaz]

Gamma, what's the reason that this is the season that now is the time for you to rhyme?


See 408 if you haven't already figured out where I'm going with this.

[davesaz]

My dear dave, how do you do?
I have a tiny question for you
Out slips that “do not exist”
Does TMI belong on that list?

That's primarily a theory question and the answer is thus primarily theory. If you'd like to rephrase to a specific in-game incident I'd be happy to apply this to specifics.

First a clarification that "doesn't exist" should really be expressed as "isn't AI", since people obviously do hit submit on posts that are messed up or seem to be messed up. I tend to write the short form where the part I leave out is really obvious to me but others may not have a shared understanding. It's really annoying when that happens on technical documents.

I think my reaction to something that seems TMI would depend on how trivial or obvious the TMI seems to be. If a reasonable person could guess it, then I'd be less likely to think it's AI.
Also I keep in mind that some town may have specialized knowledge that other do not, for example having a role that is predictive of another role existing or not existing. Especially in complex games. So "TMI" does not necessarily equal "scum" for certain specific cases.

[davesaz]

Thomith I can see as a decent suspect
since if katsuki is town scum would detect
the ruse of her Juggernaut claim quite readily
and could lead to how he's pushed certain people so heavily

Fine, I'll directly answer this.
I don't think

anyone

would actually believe a Juggernaut claim, and I don't think anyone would true claim it.
TMI is not required to take that position.

[davesaz]

I don't like the way Dave is focusing on Gamma's rhyming but his point about Gamma maybe wanting to avoid being tone read isn't awful

I'm doing more than you think, those posts are poking for a specific reaction. Gamma isn't taking the bait in a situation where the scum and town responses can be markedly different.
I'm starting to believe the explanation that was given.

[davesaz]

Why haven't you gone back to your To Do List in 316 yet?

Yesterday up to when I started posting today, for the most obvious reason of all.

408 is part of the followup.
I can't expand much on the reason for the Hu Tao observation without getting into a forbidden subject. The correct way to read that comment is that it's going to make it hard to get a read on her.

Ok, that's fair. Who do you think is scum?

I don't think I've seen much if anything that's overtly scummy. Lots of contenders for least towny, so many that I'd have to think about it.
As someone who goes primarily by memory, breaks like holidays wreak havoc on me.

[davesaz]

CCS seems fine so far

I don't see it, please explain.

[davesaz]

I have found both his feel and tone off this game compared to past town games of his, but I'm having trouble with bringing myself to nom him just for that alone today. One of those games I only stumbled upon because I discovered an old game of mine I modded that he happened to be in back in 2015. It's possible I've played in other games with him and seen him scum before, but I can't remember any of them outside of TM2018.

In the event he flips town, it doesn't really give me any helpful information to progress my reads. Fairly low quality nom today IMO, willing to give more time to sort out his alignment.

For clarity for ISO skimmers, above post relates to Davesaz.

If this is the reason you asked me if I've changed as a person, I have consciously avoided flipping out since returning from hiatus. Look carefully at my post history and you'll see me only in the Minecraft thread for at least a year and maybe more. I'm happy to say that I've only had a couple blood pressure spikes since returning.

[davesaz]

Calling CCS a lurker wagon feels like a try at deception
The marginal content he’s posted is my read’s real conception

I agree with this.

[davesaz]

VOTE: CCS

[davesaz]

I replied to Gamma with agreement.
Me asking you to revisit cCS seems to be what prompted your scumread. If anything you sheeped me on the read, though I can't prove it since I didn't say why I asked you the question.

[davesaz]

First time since the game started that I've had enough minutes in one chunk to really look at things more than just reading new posts, and you stood out.

[davesaz]

I don't mind seeing an E-2 given we're down to 4.5 days.
Which are you more concerned with, the count or who is being voted?

[davesaz]

Like you either don't know why snivy is getting votes in which case you should just read the 2 pages since you last posted to find out, or you do know why he's being voted and you think there's something sus about the wagon, in which case you should express your thoughts and not just ask the room what they think

yeah I'd been reading, on my phone, did not see what the original reason to vote cCS was but I gathered that Gamma was the first to do it, and it seemed like everyone else was sheeping, which is why I was wondering why it happened so fast. I want someone to answer so when I'm back on my PC tomorrow I can compare what's actually happened to how people explain it. I dont want to be backtracking and looking through ISOs on my phone in the evenings.

It's less of a trap if you explain what the trap is.

[davesaz]

I dont like dave/gamma interactions

What don't you like about me trying to figure out Gamma?

[davesaz]

Its just a feeling that something fishy is going on here

You know how Gamma ATEs when people take sideswipes?
Now think again about how I'm posting.

[davesaz]

I think Naerys wanting to flip a null read over her scumreads indicates that she doesn't really care who is faded. The argument that a Snivy flip gives us a lot of info doesn't check out either considering he's one of the least active slots in the game

Basically Naerys my confusion is

You are voting Katsuki, saying you are scumreading Gamma/dave, but you want Snivy limmed.

Can you walk me through this

I parked my vote on Katsuki bcz of that ugly picture.
Gamme/dave was a gut feeling i had at a certain point
i wanted Snivy limmed bcz it would give decent info
now i think its better to lim me, only claim scum will get from me is "vanilla" tho

Naerys wtf are you doing

If you are scum you should fight

If you are town you should fight even harder

I have a plan.

Two things come to mind here.
If Naerys is town vengeful hoping to bait scum, I think her reads are more likely to lose us another town. It's hard to tell given my reads aren't all that strong, but just a bad feeling here.
It's also possible she's scum with cCS and with a less valuable role.

[davesaz]

Actually I read something wrong so the scum with cCS thing is just me being d'oh. Unless it's some very weird distancing thing.

[davesaz]

Town-reading somebody for making reads is just simply wrong.

I have no skin in how you read Black, but I do have some comments on this.
I tend to think that early and unsupported (in the form of reasons given) town reads are scummy. In that respect, I agree that merely having unsupported reads isn't good justification for a TR. If the reads in question are supported in some fashion (explanation, conversation that leads to the read, etc) then it's quite different for me. It won't be a strong indicator of town, but it will be at least town points.

[davesaz]

Normally I'd be perfectly fine with D1 nomming CCS slot contribution, but I really don't like how that wagon came about. We went from stalled wagons 3 votes apiece on Dragon, Naerys and Thomith, with Thomith being the counterwagon with dragon and naerys voting for him, to suddenly being able to construct a wagon on the lurker. Nothing in his posting had changed, he could've been voted or examined at any time during the day, but no one thought to mention him at all until it came to WAGON HO!

I had more time. See 447 and 449. I used that time to look at Black, which turned up the post I quoted in 450. This prompted me to thread to cCS's very short ISO, because I didn't see any reason to TR cCS. After reading that, I posted 450 but I wasn't very interested in pushing a lurker as little can be learned from it. When it became a wagon (after Black revisited and Gamma weighed in) I figured why not, we need wagons with more than half the lim number to do wagonomics on. (I picked that term up from Bob, had been doing it without the name forever)

[davesaz]

people i have absolutely no clue on: {ssbm_Kyuoko, KittyTacky, Gamma Emerald, Hu Tao}
and people i would gladly vote are just {Naerys, davesaz, camelCasedSnivy}

Concrete read:

I think saying "haha I'd vote myself" is very performative. It's a very forced way of saying "look I'm town I don't care if people vote me!"

Does this really ping anyone else's scumdar?

I focused more on my own name, ngl.

Not listing anyone as town is equally as weird.

[davesaz]

JacksonVirgo feels town.
KittyTacky town lean.
Naerys possible scum.

[davesaz]

I wanna say that Dragon doesn't feel town at all. Nothing looked overtly bad in real time (to the extent that I've been real timing that is) but in totality it's really lacking.
I don't think it's manipulative, but it sure feels solicitous. (think I got the right word there, ready to serve / please)
Dragon doesn't strike me as someone who goes over the top on looking for someone to follow that much.

[davesaz]

Ah, I don't scumread Gamma. I don't have a read on Gamma at all because the rhyming prevents me from using the method I want to use.

[davesaz]

If y'all are scumreading me for that, get better glasses!

[davesaz]

What bugs me is

any

avatar with motion. I'd prefer the software didn't even allow it.

[davesaz]

Almost stole the pagetop by accident but biancospino managed to get the 3rd post in while mine came up in preview.

[davesaz]

I have pretty severe strabismus, and on desktop with my right eye focused on text my left eye is staring right at the avatar.

[davesaz]

@Naerys - Why are me and Hu Tao wrong on Dragon?

I don't think dave and Gamma are s/s. I think Dave is town - looking at his ISO, Dave looks to be genuinely sorting Gamma. I'm not sure why he's rhyming along with Gamma, my guess is it's just for fun, but there's an indication that it might be some sort of bait. I think pointing out that Gamma might be avoiding being tone-read by 2 people in this game at least refers to me as one of the 2 people, maybe the other is dave himself? Regardless, I don't think Gamma is rhyming to avoid being tone-read by me at least. I can only tone-read very specific posts of hers and she can just not post them at all if she's scum, though I suspect that is hard for Gamma to do in some cases.

Do you have like an actual real read on Gamma? Aren't you supposed to be really good at reading her?

Not yet no, I usually skim her early posting unless she's asking me direct questions because I can usually rely on her to at some point post something that pings me if she is scum. If the game goes long enough without me getting pinged I'll go back through her ISO and I should be able to read her from there - the less I interact with her now the less poisoned my read will be later. I've found I'm good at just reading a Gamma ISO without being in the game and guessing correctly on Town or Scum if I have enough to read.

Do you have a read on GE yet?

no and I probably won't until toMorrow unless she says something that pings me

Do you not think that's scum indicative for her? I just exoect to be town pinged by her but I am not.

I actually like quite a few Gamma posts, once I re-translate the rhyme back into what the regular post would say.

[davesaz]

VOTE: KittyTacky - will explain later

Instead of voting town, vote scum kyouko with me

You seem pretty sure of town!Kitty, what's driving that?

[davesaz]

If I had to guess I would say Dragon/Thomith is TvT

And if one was wolf you'd be saying Dragon correct?

Jackson what was the point of this question

Honestly, don't remember

I think this has played out far enough to be able to comment on it now.
I initially saw the question as just trying to get confirmation on the relative position of Dragon and Thomith in Black's reads.
I think that this could be made up as an answer if scum wanted to avoid confrontation over it. Not remembering would be a convenient way to sidestep if it was meant to be a gotcha, but given those two ways to respond to 1024 I think the not remembering answer is more likely town than scum. Wanting to confirm reads is more nai as both alignments want to know that. It's a small thing but every little thing helps.

[davesaz]

I still think cCS is scummy, but I might have a playstyle bias against low effort.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Naerys
Time is too short to do much thumb twiddling. We need to make some kind of progress at generating higher wagon numbers so at least that will be available.

[davesaz]

Maybe Dragon is scum. My posting on this page doesn't get any more town than that, so that's gotta be a chainsaw.

[davesaz]

FWIW this is similar to what I'm using.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Naerys
Time is too short to do much thumb twiddling. We need to make some kind of progress at generating higher wagon numbers so at least that will be available.

I was very, very open about why I voted. Dragon saying I wasn't is extremely sus, but he's already at E-2.

[davesaz]

Gamma doesn't assume I have a guilty if she knows you're town, which she would know if she were scum and you were town. Therefore if you are town, she can't be scum. I'm not as sure on this as I am on how I read Gamma but I'm pretty sure this is the way she would think

I think this reasoning is wrong. If Dragon and Gamma are both scum, scum!Gamma would certainly see it as a guilty, and probably not say anything about it initially, and then perhaps mention it if pressed on the reaction to Hu Tao -- because if scum then Gamma needs to line up some players to have legit reasons to scumread.

I don't think this is the case, because I also see the "heinous" thing as a likely town!Gamma tell.

pedit: things are getting lively, 5 more posts while I wrote that

[davesaz]

i kind of always read dave as stiff (sorry dave)

no worries, I kind of expect that.

[davesaz]

I was continuing to read to see if you got to the point where I did that, but I'm at the post below:

I read to that point later but had to leave for work so didn't have a chance to post further on it.

[davesaz]

pedit @JV: Sorry, I'd share where I am with the last few pages but I'm thinking bed looks really nice right now because I have an 8am call tomorrow.

I saw time zones mentioned. My extended RL team has members in eastern standard (-5), mountain standard (my tz -7), India (+7.5?), China(?), UK (UTC), Sweden, Germany (+1), Dubai (+3 or 4?), and more. Finding a time that's good for everyone is pretty much impossible.

[davesaz]

explanations are being given because it's expected

I demand others give explanations. I therefore do what I want others to do.

[davesaz]

If one more person votes Dann I'll hammer BTW.

This bothers me. If you feel strongly enough then vote and let someone else hammer.

[davesaz]

Heh, I didn't scroll far enough. Drawbacks of reading and responding post by post.

[davesaz]

Hu Tao, your towngame is one of the worst on this site currently. This is dead serious.

Why?

You seem to recognize the holes in it but I don’t see jack shit from you to patch them. You also consistently go down the most idiotic rabbit holes of logic.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. This seems to come out of the blue. What triggered 1751?

[davesaz]

Lots of gold medals in conclusion jumping to be had here. Enough that I can't tell what's genuine and what's not.

[davesaz]

Did anyone ever explain why we are convinced there is 1 scum off wagon?

I don't think any scum team is stupid enough to all vote the same. Straight forward enough for you?

[davesaz]

VOTE: Naerys
Time is too short to do much thumb twiddling. We need to make some kind of progress at generating higher wagon numbers so at least that will be available.

Ngl this vote bothers me: there was like 48 hours left at this point? And why Naerys?

For big wagons to be useful they have to happen with enough time to generate movement. Big wagons are utterly necessary if you plan to use voting patterns. Small wagons don't cause panic.
Naerys was highest count at the time.
Any more silly questions?

[davesaz]

Did anyone ever explain why we are convinced there is 1 scum off wagon?

I don't think any scum team is stupid enough to all vote the same. Straight forward enough for you?

Why would it be stupid to all vote the same?

Patterns like that are easy to see. Someone posted remembering a game where scum did all vote together -- I think I'd notice that if it did happen. Provided I lived long enough to notice...

[davesaz]

pedit @JV: Sorry, I'd share where I am with the last few pages but I'm thinking bed looks really nice right now because I have an 8am call tomorrow.

Can you get to this yet?

I tunneled hard on work the last couple days.

[davesaz]

Reading those pages again didn't do anything to reload what I was thinking at the time.

Dannflor is more concrete to me than Dragon was.
It bothered me quite a lot to see multiple people continue to refer to Dragon as if Dann wasn't here.
Thomith sure seems invested a lot in excluding a set of off-wagon people from consideration. Why can't all scum be on wagon is not the right question to ask. The correct question to ask is why not also look for people on the wagon.

[davesaz]

Hu Tao, your towngame is one of the worst on this site currently. This is dead serious.

Why?

You seem to recognize the holes in it but I don’t see jack shit from you to patch them. You also consistently go down the most idiotic rabbit holes of logic.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. This seems to come out of the blue. What triggered 1751?

Did you miss the last page?

I saw it almost in real time, at least in terms of how I was reading at the time, and it didn't initially seem that odd to me.
To borrow your terminology, 1751 is getting toward the direction of being more than 100% relative to the prior page events.

[davesaz]

Reading those pages again didn't do anything to reload what I was thinking at the time.

Dannflor is more concrete to me than Dragon was.
It bothered me quite a lot to see multiple people continue to refer to Dragon as if Dann wasn't here.
Thomith sure seems invested a lot in excluding a set of off-wagon people from consideration. Why can't all scum be on wagon is not the right question to ask. The correct question to ask is why not also look for people on the wagon.

How is what I'm doing any different from people who only want to look off wagon?

I don't know who is saying look only off wagon. I see some preference for looking there first, in comparison to a preference for not looking there at all. Or at least that's how I'm interpreting what I'm seeing.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Naerys
Time is too short to do much thumb twiddling. We need to make some kind of progress at generating higher wagon numbers so at least that will be available.

Ngl this vote bothers me: there was like 48 hours left at this point? And why Naerys?

For big wagons to be useful they have to happen with enough time to generate movement. Big wagons are utterly necessary if you plan to use voting patterns. Small wagons don't cause panic.
Naerys was highest count at the time.
Any more silly questions?

your vote directly led to the premature elimination that occurred. This response feels like you don't want to be held accountable for that.

A lim is needed. I don't know anyone's alignment. So I vote. I don't see any denial there.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Naerys
Time is too short to do much thumb twiddling. We need to make some kind of progress at generating higher wagon numbers so at least that will be available.

Ngl this vote bothers me: there was like 48 hours left at this point? And why Naerys?

For big wagons to be useful they have to happen with enough time to generate movement. Big wagons are utterly necessary if you plan to use voting patterns. Small wagons don't cause panic.
Naerys was highest count at the time.
Any more silly questions?

your vote directly led to the premature elimination that occurred. This response feels like you don't want to be held accountable for that.

A lim is needed. I don't know anyone's alignment. So I vote. I don't see any denial there.

What exactly do you think was created/caused by your vote this is useful?

Sorry, I don't understand what you're asking. Maybe some words are missing?
I'm stating why I voted, full stop. No attempt to hide it, which is what you seemed to be insinuating.
pedit: vote counts are useful. Have I been unclear about that?

[davesaz]

Well the next next votecount after you voted was the final one of the day. Doesn’t seem very productive to me.

With a little work, you can determine what the vote count is after every count.
The movement of the votes is what actually matters.
A flip is productive, more productive than a no-lim.
These are extremely basic concepts. I know you understand them.

[davesaz]

Well the next next votecount after you voted was the final one of the day. Doesn’t seem very productive to me.

With a little work, you can determine what the vote count is after every count.
The movement of the votes is what actually matters.
A flip is productive, more productive than a no-lim.
These are extremely basic concepts. I know you understand them.

Sure I understand the concepts, I just don’t understand how you’re applying them.
How about you spell it all out for me at once.

You're calling my vote sus, I'm proving it is not sus.
That's all.

[davesaz]

A lim is needed. I don't know anyone's alignment. So I vote. I don't see any denial there.

A nom is needed again, you should come join the town party on dragondann!

Stuff to do first, and there are 5 days.

[davesaz]

can you walk me through *why* your vote isn't sus step-by-step???

What I've said is already 100% of the reason. You not accepting it is ringing some serious alarm bells.

[davesaz]

A lim is needed. I don't know anyone's alignment. So I vote. I don't see any denial there.

A nom is needed again, you should come join the town party on dragondann!

Stuff to do first, and there are 5 days.

To make this perfectly clear, I think the Dann/Dragon slot is likely to be scum and those thoughts have been strengthening across the game day and in particular the last 10 or so hours.
I have both general and specific reasons. I understand it's slightly hypocritical of me to say this as someone who strongly feels reasons should be given, but I don't want to call attention to the specifics.
Part of the time since 1984 has been spent reviewing those things to verify my memory. I'll probably crunch some more info when there is a break in the meetings tomorrow.
If someone hammers before that I won't mind, but I'm going on record with delayed intent.

[davesaz]

At least we should only have one of these extra vigs, unless wolves had more than one inventor to start with.
N1: Dann gives level 1 inventor to town
N2: some townie gives whichever shot Dann chose to use to someone. Dann is already limmed so no more shots from that source.

We still have the missing N1 kill, and something else caused a 2nd N2 kill since neither of those deaths can be from one of the "inner" inventions yet. The earliest an inner invention can be used is N3.

Do not hammer until we have a good handle on what the recipient should do. Worst case is a 3 kill night and all could be town if the 2nd recipient is town, has the vig/hider, and targets town (killing their target and themself), plus a wolf kill.

[davesaz]

N1 Dann gives an inventor shot.
N2 The inventor gives a vig shot.
N3 the vig has to use their shot.

[davesaz]

Inventor gives a thing. The given thing is not used the same night it is given. If it were there would need to be 2 night deadlines, one to give it and another to use it.

Dann gives out inventor shots. Read the role card very carefully.

[davesaz]

Inventor gives a thing. The given thing is not used the same night it is given. If it were there would need to be 2 night deadlines, one to give it and another to use it.

Dann gives out inventor shots. Read the role card very carefully.

No it's just phrased very weirdly, but he doesn't give out inventor shots, i asked the mod about it for clarification

@MOD: We'll need this to be answered in the thread. Does Dann's role give inventions that give the inner abilities, or the inner abilities directly?

[davesaz]

Given the mod's answer, someone is a backup.

[davesaz]

The town really need me to town read them.

[davesaz]

Don't know alignment of the backup.

[davesaz]

That may be a possibility in which case the danger is less than it might be, but there are other possibilities that are worse.


What do you make of 2262?

[davesaz]

I'm a little confused as to why we are assuming scum have a backup?

Did you miss any sections of posts?

[davesaz]

I wanted to see if anyone seemed to have TMI first.

I received an invention on Dann's list after Dann was limmed.
Therefore there is a backup, and it wasn't Katsuki for the reason already mentioned.

[davesaz]

Before the scum flip we didn't know it was town only, maybe that's why it wasn't claimed?
Someone reacted pretty strongly to day 2 start. I don't remember who it was and won't be able to look for several hours at best.

[davesaz]

From Katsuki flip:

one-shot activated UniversalBackup — At Night, but at most once during the game, you may activate this ability. Assuming no interference with your action, when a non-Vanilla player aligned with you dies this Night, you will inherit their role and lose this ability.

The backup is only for deaths the same night and same alignment.

[davesaz]

There could be another town backup, a scum backup, or another inventor ability that's essentially the same as what flipped.

[davesaz]

Did you notice that Elements' list was from most likely to be partner to least likely?
Possible followup question if you did know that.

[davesaz]

Bottom of 98, I think I missed pages because the last page I remember reading there had been no claims other than me implying I received one of the combo vigs.

[davesaz]

Well Gamma followed your/kyouko slot which was performing a JAILKEEP and ROLE INVESTIGATIVE action. And there was no kill that night.

Where did this come from?

[davesaz]

I remember thinking Katsuki had a guilty due to an abrupt read change and some posts, and one or both of Gamma and Kyouko were trying to cover.
Gotta go back out rn, no time to look for it now.

[davesaz]

Not sure I believe Elements claim. The time to claim who the action was on was immediately, not after an eternity of thought about what wouldn't be incriminating.
Also, was the follow (?) result "rolecop" or "rolecop-like"? Could make a difference as what Elements said was vanilla cop. A rolecop would be able to give a specific role.
I think it's a good thing now that I haven't said what my role is other than having received the invention.
I've been working and only skimmed about 2-3 pages so might have missed a detail or two...

Hu Tao needs to leave things hanging a bit longer for reaction tests, instead of giving up on the very next post. Or be a little less direct, like are you sure you jk'd me etc. Don't go as far as JV did that other game though, something in the goldilocks range.

[davesaz]

I was going to jump on Elements vanilla result on me being fake, but end of day went too fast and I came back to a locked thread.
Don't know if it would make a difference in the outcome, as I didn't have any good leads on last wolf to vig.