Mini Normal 2323 [There is an Inventor] | FIN

[Gypyx]

Ok so we really have half the alive players as new slots huh, lmao

also that's a rough night for me, black and katsuki kinda were my top SR's

[Gypyx]

Yeah i mean that's good but my ego is sad and shattered

[Gypyx]

Yeah i mean that's good but my ego is sad and shattered

So where are you at right now? Any other reads you had?

You / Thomith are my 2 biggest townreads, kyouko a little bit too but i'm being careful cause i'm bad at reading big posts (bad attention span)

[Gypyx]

The strongwilled also goes through protections iirc

Checked the wiki and yes it does

only commuting protected from strongwilled

this setup is bonkers, looks like i'll have to design a normal of my own soonish UwU (preins accepted)

[Gypyx]

Yeah i mean that's good but my ego is sad and shattered

So where are you at right now? Any other reads you had?

You / Thomith are my 2 biggest townreads, kyouko a little bit too but i'm being careful cause i'm bad at reading big posts (bad attention span)

Can you explain these three reads further

Your play was very strongly protown through the entierty of day 2 (didn't read day 1) and i felt like you've asked a lot of very pertinent questions that would've been better left unsaid, especially consider that we now know katsuki / black as town

as for thomith i just don't see him making no attempt at leaving the fence he's on when his would be scumbuddy was in danger, like, it don't make no sense, i feel like his lack of proactivity also comes more from a town perspective rather than a struggle to look uninformed

kyouko is ~vibes~

[Gypyx]

does anyone know if Lazy gets disabled if there is a mafia and a traitor still alive?

[Gypyx]

anyways ummm where are we going with all of this setup spec

i guess it's fun but there's just no point right now

[Gypyx]

Inventor gives a thing. The given thing is not used the same night it is given. If it were there would need to be 2 night deadlines, one to give it and another to use it.

Dann gives out inventor shots. Read the role card very carefully.

No it's just phrased very weirdly, but he doesn't give out inventor shots, i asked the mod about it for clarification

[Gypyx]

Inventor gives a thing. The given thing is not used the same night it is given. If it were there would need to be 2 night deadlines, one to give it and another to use it.

Dann gives out inventor shots. Read the role card very carefully.

No it's just phrased very weirdly, but he doesn't give out inventor shots, i asked the mod about it for clarification

@MOD: We'll need this to be answered in the thread. Does Dann's role give inventions that give the inner abilities, or the inner abilities directly?

this just occured to me but +town points for everyone who misundersteanding dannfloor's role since his scumbuddies would probably already have received an explaination

[Gypyx]

this just occured to me but +town points for everyone who misundersteanding dannfloor's role since his scumbuddies would probably already have received an explaination

OR, scum don't wanna seem like they know too much and thus are faking confusion

Hence the "+town points" and not "OK SO EVERYONE WHO MADE A SINGLE MISTAKE IS TOWN"

Especially think dave's misundersteanding is towny

[Gypyx]

Love wins

[Gypyx]

also that's a rough night for me, black and katsuki kinda were my top SR's

Actually, can you explain why you SR the two of them?

I read their interactions very strongly as scum theatrics (kept pushing each other in a way that wasn't really progressing anything or even not ending on killing each other) and even in their effects it felt like it was meant to push away from the dann wagon?

individiually i've also felt that katsuki was quite scummy / fabricated in their posts and black i've only had some minor pings but it seemed like her scumgame was quite high level, soooo... yea

[Gypyx]

Inventor gives a thing. The given thing is not used the same night it is given. If it were there would need to be 2 night deadlines, one to give it and another to use it.

Dann gives out inventor shots. Read the role card very carefully.

No it's just phrased very weirdly, but he doesn't give out inventor shots, i asked the mod about it for clarification

@MOD: We'll need this to be answered in the thread. Does Dann's role give inventions that give the inner abilities, or the inner abilities directly?

this just occured to me but +town points for everyone who misundersteanding dannfloor's role since his scumbuddies would probably already have received an explaination

Not necessarily could put on an act

Is dave included in "could put on an act"?

[Gypyx]

felt like you've asked a lot of very pertinent questions that would've been better left unsaid

Do you have any examples off the top of your head?

Nope since i didn't really bother taking notes but with a quick reread in your ISO i could mention how you asked people their reads on you or that 1779 is a great counteragression onto a scum slot for instance

[Gypyx]

The more I do setup spec the more I'm convinced it's 2 scum, so might need someone to pull me out of the spiral.

We could have outright been in ELo today with 3 scum if we mislimmed on Day 1 and 2, which seems crazy.
Even if we then limmed correctly in ELo, town would just lose because of the vig bg shot.

I think it's best to assume we still have 2 scum until we get to that point no?

[Gypyx]

felt like you've asked a lot of very pertinent questions that would've been better left unsaid

Do you have any examples off the top of your head?

Nope since i didn't really bother taking notes but with a quick reread in your ISO i could mention how you asked people their reads on you or that 1779 is a great counteragression onto a scum slot for instance

I insinuated that the important questions that I asked, that you're TRing me for has to do with black/katsuki. Can you elaborate on that somewhat?

Well, i recall that what made me think that was how you acted during it yeah, i can go and look for specifics if you wanna but iirc but it seems like you want immediate answers

maybe i should start taking notes huh, how about that

[Gypyx]

individiually i've also felt that katsuki was quite scummy / fabricated in their posts and black i've only had some minor pings but it seemed like her scumgame was quite high level, soooo... yea

What about Katsuki felt scummy/fabricated?

Disparity between her confidence and what i'd expect from her reads basically, Big words with small reads

[Gypyx]

individiually i've also felt that katsuki was quite scummy / fabricated in their posts and black i've only had some minor pings but it seemed like her scumgame was quite high level, soooo... yea

What about Katsuki felt scummy/fabricated?

@Gyp this is the last one. I'll let you know why I'm asking in a moment

Yeah i was just distracted with irl stuff inbetween, sorry

[Gypyx]

well, i've made my answers, spill the tea now

[Gypyx]

Well, i guess you're maybe overestimating a bit on how much i've read (read through the game at 23:00, skipping through the boring parts) which, fair, should've been more open about it ig

And yeah, of course i'm gonna act a bit less confident in my reads when you ask questions and i realize that clearly, i don't know what i'm talking about, you think it's a scum trait or what

as for a read i'm more confident on, i'm really curious as to why you seem so guilty about your vote on me, i know this goes opposite to my read on you but that just rubs me in a weird way

[Gypyx]

I do think you're wolf here,

but I am also aware I was asking for immediate answers as you put it so feel free to delve further into it after the fact,

in fact I want you to elaborate more on the reasonings for town-reading me and the reasons for scum-reading Black specifically if you can get into the thick of it, as those are the reads I feel are the most faked if you did fake them. For what I did though, which is probably obvious lol, was that I wanted to see if you genuinely felt the things you were saying, or just saying them as a cover.

Typically I wouldn't be looking at anybody that just replaced in with a fine-tooth comb but you appear to have done some reading during the night so I felt that I should check the depth of that

and with that none of what you said had shown me it had much of any depth at all, in fact I don't think I see anything in there that would make me feel you read day 2 with the lens of scum-hunting at all. The things you've said that were meaningful in my eyes were the things you had to ISO-dive to get which doesn't show me that you feel the words you're saying at all. The Katsuki/Black reads feel the most shallow to me as I said before and I saw that after re-reading what we had for D3 that those appear to be the strongest most notable reads for you as you said them immediately and had to be poked to get your others, your reactions to me asking deeper don't really line up with what I felt was your feelings behind the SRs either.

I have a feeling this could be because I was barraging you with questions

but the fact you started to take a back step to my questions with the "I should take notes" stuff and the like feels like it was trying to throw out a scapegoat to throw the heat onto (as you saw I was throwing a bunch of q's your way rather quickly) rather than onto yourself.

I understand that you just replaced in and that I put you on the spot so by all means prove me wrong

on this by

showing

me what you feel about the game but I do think it's you and then one in ccs/gamma/dave. I did feel badly about your predecessor but I could never place it, nor had the confidence to really push it but I feel with someone that's actually speaking I can do something about this feeling.

Guilty might be the wrong word but like, that's a lot of words to reassure town me that she doesn't need to take things badly here

[Gypyx]

Well, i guess you're maybe overestimating a bit on how much i've read (read through the game at 23:00, skipping through the boring parts) which, fair, should've been more open about it ig

I figured that if I were wrong, that's what it would be but you'll show me that. Or you don't, that's up to you

i'm really not sure what you mean by these words

[Gypyx]

You're just the nicest person alive huh

pedit : and okie, guess there's not a lot more to say about this then

[Gypyx]

what do you mean by suicidal funny ability

[Gypyx]

Do you have any particular thoughts on either of those?

Gamma i have as town instinctically (aka : it was revealed to me in a dream) and i have pretty much zero thoughts about camel slot

[Gypyx]

Compulsive Bodyguard+Vig are surely funny.

And suicidal.

what even is this setup anymore

[Gypyx]

Well, i guess we can give a pass for enchant today and kill them tommrow if they're still alive?

[Gypyx]

like, unless you obvtown today i think that invention probably comes from town?

[Gypyx]

wait uh

enchant didn't claim they received a compulsive Bg vig?

[Gypyx]

ok i'm gonna go hide into a hole

see y'all tommorow

[Gypyx]

Greetings, I am your new Gamma! My lucky number is 19, I like long walks in mysterious forests, and voting scum.

VOTE: Enchant

I agree that it is quite likely to be a 2-person scum team with this vig-happy setup and the talk from Dragon at the start of the game.

And I have no idea why dave is talking like there must be a backup. A backup in addition to the backup shot we see in the Katsuki flip? What does the mod have to do with any of it? I am confused.

Actually that's kinda on point i think, dragon strikes me as the kind of person who would pull this kind of stuff

anyways, did you perhaps have more theories to entertain us with duelist? this game certainely feels like we're at a standstill lol

[Gypyx]

Elements replaces ssbm_Kyouko, please welcome them!

Hello Elements! I think the remaining scum's N1 kill was blocked. You wouldn't happen to be able to provide info about a blocking action N1 to hopefully wrap up this game would you? Maybe even with a side of rolecop showing if the target was a backup?

Ok now you're just being fishy VOTE: Duelist

[Gypyx]

fishy as in rolefishing

[Gypyx]

yo yo yo (it's like a yo yo but moves in all three dimentions at once)
I'm not going to religiously read 93 pages so throw things at me to look at so I can catch up
or don't, up to you i guess

I already did, see above.

Elements replaces ssbm_Kyouko, please welcome them!

Hello Elements! I think the remaining scum's N1 kill was blocked. You wouldn't happen to be able to provide info about a blocking action N1 to hopefully wrap up this game would you? Maybe even with a side of rolecop showing if the target was a backup?

Ok now you're just being fishy VOTE: Duelist

Do you

not

think that a missing N1 kill warrants any blocking actions being claimed here so we can narrow down the suspect pool? Or rolecop results showing someone is a backup? Please explain why, in that case. It's d3 with a caught scum and probably one remaining, so I don't see the wisdom in continuing secrecy of valuable information. We could even go full massclaim but that's quite possibly overkill given the situation. We definitely should be claiming these relevant pieces of information if we have them.

I think that while this is all true, the fact is that any hard guilty would probably get claimed naturally, trying to provoke it just risks leaking info to scum, besides, considering you're saying that to someone who's just coming into the game (aka : very limited perspective) it really feels like you're trying to provoke a slipup one way or another

[Gypyx]

Am I not being clear? I'm saying it to everyone. If you have info from n1 on a blocking action or rolecop of a backup, please claim it NOW.

I mean, that's what your words meant, but once again i didn't feel like that was the intent behind those? This is kinda going nowhere tho so i'll stop bothering you about

[Gypyx]

about it

[Gypyx]

i belive in u jackson, you go get em' <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

you can even case me if that's something that would get you back in, you get a pass

[Gypyx]

me and my mason partner are preparing a muppets show to entertain u jackson

[Gypyx]

Gypyx do you

really

suspect kage?

Greetings, I am your new Gamma! My lucky number is 19, I like long walks in mysterious forests, and voting scum.

VOTE: Enchant

I agree that it is quite likely to be a 2-person scum team with this vig-happy setup and the talk from Dragon at the start of the game.

And I have no idea why dave is talking like there must be a backup. A backup in addition to the backup shot we see in the Katsuki flip? What does the mod have to do with any of it? I am confused.

I'm not going off of much, but there's also this post which pings me for reasons i don't understeand myself

[Gypyx]

kage is also my strongest SR right now

[Gypyx]

If I do yet another (I think it's the fourth) "delve into my brain" session today. I'm fairly confident that all three in { dave, hu tao, enchant } are all town, with enough a degree of confidence that I would probably need mech information to consider changing my stance on them. Does anybody disagree with any of these, if so why? I feel this is a good topic to bring up with a stagnant game as I don't want to be complacent just because of a slow game (to my standards anyway).

Hu Tao i'm a little less certain on but i wouldn't really be inclined to call them scummy either

although it's not like i have strong scumreads anyways

[Gypyx]

What's your thoughts on Kage claiming Gunsmith?

i'm waiting for a fullclaim

[Gypyx]

I feel like a Gunsmith claim isn't that unbelievable in this setup?

i think a gunsmith needs a very specific thing to be realistic in this setup actually

[Gypyx]

And you made me realize that enchant was repped in camel's slot lmao

still think enchant looks individually towny but that changes things

[Gypyx]

Did you see where gamma thought kyouko had a guilty on dragon?

Still have no idea why gamma thought kyo had a guilty
does gamma get paranoid about night action results? like, i could maybe see red!gamma thinking there was a guilty because of her knowing dragon was red and then acting like she was trying to protect dragon?
I can see it as a tmi red play to try and look more town
I don't see where anyone would see a dragon guilty from

that's the general feeling people had at the time too from what i've read

[Gypyx]

Also I've seen here and there people saying it's probably a 2 player red team
but I also have in my head that that was based off something dragon said and now dragon has flipped red is that not like, the worst thing to base things off?

it's also based off of the game being able to end in like 2.5 days if it's indeed a 3 man scumteam

[Gypyx]

still think enchant looks individually towny but that changes things

Enchant's iso reads to me like it's Enchant playing the game

you gotta read between the lines bestie, altho yeah granted it's still enchant

[Gypyx]

yay that's me <3<3<3<3

[Gypyx]

curious what elements have to say about that but then i'll have to come fowards with info of my own

[Gypyx]

i mean, scum can still be manually multitasking though? the no multitasking rule is there to make sure the inventor wolf can't also do the factional kill

[Gypyx]

yeah whatever i'll fullclaim

i'm a lazy Inventor (announcing FruitVendor, Cop-Inventor, compulsive personal Strengthener, Macho)

i gave the cop inventor invention to black night 1, this might be what caused the gunsmith guilty

assuming every claim as true, this would make the setup the following :

Town lazy Inventor (announcing FruitVendor, Cop-Inventor, compulsive personal Strengthener, 1-shot activated Macho)
Town JOAT (activated Ascetic, activated Informed, activated UniversalBackup)
Town combined JKer investigative
Town with a gunsmith and follower shot
6VT

Werewolf lazy weak compulsive Inventor (compulsive combined Vigilante Bodyguard x2, compulsive combined Vigilante Hider x2, compulsive strongwilled weak Vigilante)
Werewolf ???

this feels like it makes sense?

[Gypyx]

the 4th wall breaks are getting out of hand

[Gypyx]

Wait why the hell you would give macho

idk, take it like a fruit vendor? the activation is non-madatory and this maybe allows to check if like there indeed is 2 scum or 3

my N2 was also spent on Black so no result from that one

[Gypyx]

the 4th wall breaks are getting out of hand

how many reds did you think were left again?

i think we're only facing one scum left, like, 99% postivie

[Gypyx]

i think we're only facing one scum left, like, 99% postivie

would you have not been able to use your ability last night then?

I am not aware if my lazy modifier prevents me from acting or not

[Gypyx]

i asked and i got told that i am not aware

[Gypyx]

what does a "stengthener" do?

makes a player unroleblockable

[Gypyx]

nvm read the wiki wrong, it makes a player unstoppable from anything for the night protective or roleblocking, only exception is commuting (any commuters in chat?)

[Gypyx]

cop inventor vends cops?

i give someone the ability to give someone a cop shot

[Gypyx]

also ummm not that it matters but i've read my role PM wrong, the macho is not activated it's passive, so that's basically a machoifier

anyways the important part is that i gave black the cop invention night 1 so maybe it's actually katskui who received the gun from the wolves? not sure if this changes anything

[Gypyx]

certainely don't regret replacing in

[Gypyx]

anyways ummm who's the kill today

[Gypyx]

oh we have 4 days

[Gypyx]

anyways ummm who's the kill today

mafia

Townslip from enchant actually we're facing werewolves today

[Gypyx]

One is our mortal ennemy and the other is something that mods do when they want quirky flavor

[Gypyx]

One is our mortal ennemy and the other is something that mods do when they want quirky flavor

Or mess with gunsmiths?

nah Werewolves still show as having guns in normals

[Gypyx]

You can always go and suggest it if you think it would make normals cooler !

[Gypyx]

idk why it got removed from the wiki (readability i assume) but here from the normal changes thread : In Normal games on mafiascum.net, a Gunsmith gets guilties on all Mafia (except Traitors and Doctors), Cops, Vigilantes, Gunsmiths, Role Cops, Vanilla Cops, Backups of roles with guns and JoATs that have any of these listed powers. A Werewolf faction should be treated the same as any other Mafia family.

[Gypyx]

Wait why the hell you would give macho

Macho goes against the Town
Dann was also a compulsive wolf, making the compulsive strengthener even more suspicious. Dann couldn't have used anything except something compulsive.

The thing is my role can really mess with the wolf vig inventor basically

combined Bodyguard vigilante just becomes a vig with that

[Gypyx]

You also would have to think think that the godfather that's in the setup is there as a red herring to give scum a fakeclaim, which sounds really weird as a remainder of my role doesn't like too great of a fakeclaim (i'll admit it's a bit sus)

[Gypyx]

Unironically make arsonist normal plsplspls

[Gypyx]

13 players total. A wolf that gives out vig's. A cop-inventor. My inventions. A role-based cop role of sorts.
7+ positives for a Town to get, as they're uninformed.
That's over half the game on D1 that can be shown a positive for a gunsmith, that's actually crazy.

12 players*

[Gypyx]

even more reason to belive we're in a 2 scum game imo

anyways, i think it's the only vote i feel kinda good about today, sorry VOTE: Enchant

[Gypyx]

even more reason to belive we're in a 2 scum game imo

How?

town would need some extremely guaranteed and powerful roles to outweight a 9v3 with 2 kills per night

the closest we have to consistency is a jailkeeper / a follower

[Gypyx]

anyways, i think it's the only vote i feel kinda good about today, sorry VOTE: Enchant

Do u think the remaining wolf os in my pool I just said?

I think your claim is the only one i'm doubtful of right now, or maybe kage but it's a stretch

[Gypyx]

I'd be shocked if you didn't doubt my claim

Yeah sorry i'm predictable most boring plays of 2023

but i also view the way you played around all that as very towny individually so like, it's ok?

[Gypyx]

both

your role and Kage benefits the wolves more than the Town. You can for sure argue that yours was to supplement the Towns fight against the vig's but like a macho-maker and the strengthener is like almost entirely a negative utility role, especially with a JK and a protection-based invention in the game. The Gunsmith that has a positive on everybody and their mother is not counteracting powerful scum kills, it's to find PRs/some inventions. Like it has a positive on every claimed and flipped PR in the game right now + more from the inventions.

Reminder that the strengthener is personal so it pretty much doesn't benefit scum, or like, half as much

[Gypyx]

The only thing I don't super duper like is the macho-maker which doesn't make much sense to have but I'm willing to overlook that for now. Kage on the other hand, that's almost certainly a scum role masked to look like a town one. If not by social play (aka he's a v-cop or something), then it's made with the Godfather in mind to be a safe fake-claim for them.

Combined BG vig shoots the machoified guy

BG doesn't work

free vig shot (big)

[Gypyx]

what is kage's role exactly btw? didn't understeand that part too much

[Gypyx]

The only thing I don't super duper like is the macho-maker which doesn't make much sense to have but I'm willing to overlook that for now. Kage on the other hand, that's almost certainly a scum role masked to look like a town one. If not by social play (aka he's a v-cop or something), then it's made with the Godfather in mind to be a safe fake-claim for them.

Combined BG vig shoots the machoified guy

BG doesn't work

free vig shot (big)

Hey, how about you stop making sense

vote me out or suffer Jacksonvirgo

[Gypyx]

what is kage's role exactly btw? didn't understeand that part too much

He appears to be Katsuku 2.0. A JOAT with a Gunsmith, Follower and a Modifier Cop. All of which aid in finding PRs instead of wolves in this setup

I see

unrelated but it seems we have 3 inventors and 2 JOATs, would kinda make sense for one of both to be scum?

regardless i think we wait a bit before killing kage regardless

[Gypyx]

If I humour not playing conservatively, (and p-edit, if elements can even act) I mean we can funnel actions to sort the entire 4+ player PoE in one cycle. An example world that I'm just coming up with off the top of my head is to:
1. Lim Enchant
2. Dave kills Kage
3. Elements blocks Thom
4. Gypyx / JV gives each other an invention.
5. Hu Tao vibes (or uses the invention I gave)

With this
- Enchant gets sorted
- Kage gets sorted
- Thom gets sorted
- Gypyx / JV solve whether it's a 2 or 3p wolf team.
- If it's a 3p wolf team and we flip a wolf today, Hu Tao gets sorted through Thom's inversion. Otherwise the same as below
- If it's a 2p wolf team, the unsorted resides in { Hu Tao, JV, Gypyx } in which we can resolve manually.

coolio

[Gypyx]

i missed dave's claim, what's his thing?

[Gypyx]

Strengthener / Macho

so like, the interesting stuff is gone, i guess you'd rather have the macho? doesn't look like we have much left in the way of protectives

[Gypyx]

i missed dave's claim, what's his thing?

What's your claim again? What's a personal strengther do?

i can make someone's action through roleblocks / protections but it doesn't affect the scum kill

[Gypyx]

spicy

i guess scum could've noticed kyouko looked like she indeed has a PR and roleblocked off of that? it's not inconcievable anyways

pedit : never trust genshin impact characters

[Gypyx]

I don't think it's actually necessary to cross-invention each other, I just said each other cuz it seems cleaner to think about but if u got a Macho left, you should probably place it on someone scummy so that if it lands and somebody gets a suicide-vig they can avoid killing themselves.

i think it would be more pertinent to give out the compulsive strengthener? like, macho *might* land us a kill, but having a scum permanently blocked from killing is way better value

[Gypyx]

compulsive

[Gypyx]

god i'm so bad at keeping track of this setup

guess i'm fine with machoing then yeah, might target thom might not who knows

[Gypyx]

yay ^.^

i can be your lawyer if you want

[Gypyx]

Hm wait,

@Gypyx

you said that you scum-read Black. Why did you give Black an invention?

Fruit Vendor is better in the hands of scum than town no? Like, if we manage to reach 1 scum left, it basically confirms if the person is giving a fruit / doing something else

i wasn't super confident on the read still so that's why i gave the FV rather than the compulsive strengthener

[Gypyx]

Alright then. Let's make sure to verify the result Elements got on dave first though. I have trouble imagining it's not accurate because in the bizarro world where the scum get to choose the vigs and JK action she's still trueclaiming at least the N1 action part of her role. Can't imagine why she'd lie about the target.

Now you've got me actually thinking too much about bizarro worlds, alas. Probably because it's 4am. I guess if we somehow get to tomorrow and our results are me getting Macho but also clearing Gypyx off her modifiers but we didn't get either scum yet, we resolve the flip via who got the scum vig or something? I feel like Elements would likely be scum here because of the compulsive so we probably go flip her? And resolve me via the vig? Leaving Jackson/Hu/Gypyx in 3P elo with Gypyx as conftown from my action and I think maybe also Jackson because Hu is confirming his action and was 'cleared' as vanilla by scum thus not actually clear- unless whatever the invention does can prove otherwise? I would actually need to think about this more.

Dear lord, why did I go down the rabbithole?

what zero controvesy day does to a MF

[Gypyx]

don't hammer before elements responds

[Gypyx]

it seems like we have another wolf huh

i got you invention jackson

[Gypyx]

Holy shit, I had elements at near lock-town. That's terrifying

What was that based on?

[Gypyx]

also, if i understeand correctly there was no nightkill tonight?

[Gypyx]

Elements' claimed that she JK'd Hu Tao on N2. It was public information that Hu Tao received my invention on N1, why would Elements risk getting called out like that unnecessarily when the chances were that an invention received N1 gets used N2. I don't like that at all. I gotta re-address my TR on Hu Tao. The fact I just about lock-towned a wolf is scary enough that I have to rebase myself.

pedit: Yeah as likely chance dave had the vig and shot Elements

by public info do you mean it was known day 2? sorry things are messy

[Gypyx]

Actually, maybe wolves simply don't have access to the factional kill? That would explain how nights went

[Gypyx]

yeah whatever i'll fullclaim

i'm a lazy Inventor (announcing FruitVendor, Cop-Inventor, compulsive personal Strengthener, Macho)

i gave the cop inventor invention to black night 1, this might be what caused the gunsmith guilty

assuming every claim as true, this would make the setup the following :

Town lazy Inventor (announcing FruitVendor, Cop-Inventor, compulsive personal Strengthener, 1-shot activated Macho)
Town JOAT (activated Ascetic, activated Informed, activated UniversalBackup)
Town combined JKer investigative
Town with a gunsmith and follower shot
6VT

Werewolf lazy weak compulsive Inventor (compulsive combined Vigilante Bodyguard x2, compulsive combined Vigilante Hider x2, compulsive strongwilled weak Vigilante)
Werewolf ???

this feels like it makes sense?

add jackson's thingy which isn't really out anyways

[Gypyx]

Actually, maybe wolves simply don't have access to the factional kill? That would explain how nights went

Then the redacted PMs of the wolves would be a mod lie?

I mean

they have access to the kill theoretically but if they're all some compulsive *whatever* they can't actually perform it

[Gypyx]

that would explain the black / katsuki deaths night 2 with nothing claimed as black would've got the exploder and chose to kill her pet scumread

[Gypyx]

making kage's modifier cop an actual cop

[Gypyx]

kinda think it's hu tao by PoE?

[Gypyx]

Like my paranoia is telling me that JV being adamant it probably wasn't 2 scum was potentially TMI, but I fully aware this is probably me being paranoid.

nah i agree it's super fishy, especially since we hadn't realized there was no mauling done yet

[Gypyx]

making kage's modifier cop an actual cop

With the invention you got from JV would you say they're likely town?

I fear my paranoia is making it hard for me to commit to a read on them. (I keep seeing "gotcha" moments that I think I'm only seeing because I'm paranoid/tunelled)

I think it's ev-neutral, him waiting so long to give it out is probably protown tho

[Gypyx]

Also nobody ever let me do setup spec again.

we're all blind and stumbling around, i think you're fine

[Gypyx]

Okay good, dave got the memo on shooting Elements instead if she was wrong about him being vanilla. I was a little worried since it hadn't been explicitly stated. Damn, that was a nice fakeclaim from her. Adding Simple for no particular reason was just a chef's kiss.

I got the Macho, of course, and the Vig+BG invention so I shall be exploding myself tonight if we don't catch the last wolf here.

I didn't realize that inventions from an inventor would trigger ModifierCop as well, as I got a list of all of the modifiers Gypyx claimed for her inventions: lazy, announcing, personal, compulsive. I may have chosen targets differently if I'd realized that but still, I'm inclined to clear her because Elements was the backup so the last wolf must be the Godfather and giving all that on top seems a bit much? Although I guess expecting things to not be a bit much from this game at this point is maybe... a bit much?

We need to know what's going on with Jackson's inventions now.

ATTENTION EVERYONE WE VERY LIKELY ARE IN ELo

[Gypyx]

Role guard would have been very nice to have

[Gypyx]

Melo, my bad

like, unless we can protect kage she's dead tonight, so we're basically at 4 players

since i'm mech cleared i also think we need to vote today

[Gypyx]

Yeah I agree, I think I misplayed the order I was giving but I didn't know the game was going to turn out the way it did. I felt the others were much stronger

why'd you give out neighborizer over role guard this night though

[Gypyx]

since i'm mech cleared i also think we need to vote today

Mech cleared?

whoops my bad, i though godfather was a modifier

[Gypyx]

I think i'm still somewhat cleared since it shows my modifiers in the order i own them, therefore my inventior action isn't compulsive and i could've performed the wolf kill if i wished to

[Gypyx]

ATTENTION EVERYONE WE VERY LIKELY ARE IN ELo

You think there's going to be a nightkill tonight when we don't seem to have had them yet? I think we're just in 3P tomorrow. Although my head is kind of spinning now.

Ok but like, why are there no nightkills?

Because all the wolves are compulsive (all the flipped wolves at least)

but they are also lazy

unless i'm getting it wrong, you aren't forced to attempt to perform a compulsive action once laziness kicks in, so there will be a maul tonight

[Gypyx]

@Mod can we get confirmation that a lazy compulsive something wouldn't have to act with one scum left?

[Gypyx]

Yeah I agree, I think I misplayed the order I was giving but I didn't know the game was going to turn out the way it did. I felt the others were much stronger

why'd you give out neighborizer over role guard this night though

Oh, that's a good fuckin' point. I didn't really think that much, I think my internal bias of the game is gonna end soon was making me think the choice was useless but you're right I should have

I mean, don't wanna be rude but you kinda gave wolves a free kill and as it turns out we're losing a vote over that ~_~

[Gypyx]

@Mod can we get confirmation that a lazy compulsive something wouldn't have to act with one scum left?

Well Lazy would mean you can't do it with one wolf left, so it's not that they wouldn't have to use that ability. They can't

Yeah idk maybe i talked myself into beliving the wolves are way stronger than they are

[Gypyx]

oh my bad now i misunderstood how role guard works

i'm in my girlfailure era sorry

[Gypyx]

Logically I think it should just be between Me/Hu Tao?

4 VTs in this setup though makes me unsure?

You're my most confident townread right now and i do think only 4 PRs against such an explosive power from scum would be even weirder

[Gypyx]

@Mod can we get confirmation that a lazy compulsive something wouldn't have to act with one scum left?

That is correct; a lazy compulsive nonfactional ability need not, and in fact cannot, be used when only one nonvillage is left

(it may still be attempted to be used, but would have no effect)

[Gypyx]

I do think Elements and Hu Tao scum slipped together so I don't really think the wolves are anywhere else. Which makes me all depresso as they were my top TRs, ugh

what's the slip in question?

[Gypyx]

I do think Elements and Hu Tao scum slipped together so I don't really think the wolves are anywhere else. Which makes me all depresso as they were my top TRs, ugh

what's the slip in question?

Well slip is probably not the right word. Elements' guessed Hu Tao didn't act the night after I gave them the invention (and the invention was public info at this point). Hu Tao then did a weak, and tbh just completely fake, reaction test on Elements that lasted 2 seconds and then they gave up on it which gives me the vibe of "Oh town-me would be doing this, so I'll do this" but never committed to it at all. I feel that's incredibly likely to come from scum that knew Hu Tao wouldn't counter-claim them and then they had to attempt to distance from that. I don't see why Elements would risk getting counterclaimed by

two

people when they had the option to double-down on Dave to limit risk or to have JK'd a VT claim.

That's very fair

guess i'll wait a bit to see what Hu Tao has to say but i kinda struggle beliving it's anyone else

[Gypyx]

I will be very disappointed if wolves actually get to kill here finally. It

should

matter that we took the second one out and are in 4-1 here rather than 3-2.

I guess I've got to agree that Hu seems the most likely suspect. If Jackson's 1-shot Doc invention is scum too, I'm just going to cry. The jailkeeper was scum. There's bonus kills all over the place. We might not even make it to 3P ELO despite being at 4-1. The setup is definitely chaos.

I guess I'll have to revisit what might've been going on with kills. If Hu is the godfather, she must have been compulsively doing

something

also in order to not be able to use Maul. Hopefully something totally useless to the wolves.

i mean, it matters kinda, if we were 3 v 2 today we would litterally lose the game regardless of if we lim correctly or not

[Gypyx]

Also Elements was a rolecop, not vanilla cop like she claimed. I wonder why the switch. Obviously she never targeted dave or she'd have been able to claim his info accurately. Who would she have targeted, then? Feels likely to be relevant. Not Jackson because his invention went through to Hu. Probably not Gypyx because Black had the gun which could've been either invention but if she was rolecopped they probably would've tried to kill her next as a PR that could mess with their stuff? I guess it's possible Hu was the n1 target instead but why lie about the night?

She probably copped someone who was viewed as somewhat conftown but for whom it would've been weird to target?

I gues the only profile that fit this is black which could make sense if we think Katsuki was the one with the gun

[Gypyx]

did we even make use of a single invention this game

[Gypyx]

Holy shit I had a massive revelation

inb4 worst take of the game

[Gypyx]

I love being a little rude

[Gypyx]

When this thought popped in my head I actually laughed, cuz it's the smartest thing. What if Hu Tao is attempting to sow doubt in the inventors by fake-claiming they received an invention that nobody is claiming, hoping it causes enough doubt that they cross-vote each other.

hang on you're cooking

i don't think this game makes a lot of sense with you as scum anyways

[Gypyx]

reminder i wasn't aware of the modifier cop when claiming and also that it kinda doesn't make sense to give scum one of the only roles that's somewhat consistent in terms of town utility

if you think i'm still worthy of suspicion we could always no kill ofc, but idk if it's best to dilute our town voices

[Gypyx]

kinda regretting my very bad night actions not gonna lie lmao

[Gypyx]

I think you're Town, I'd be hugely impressed if you were wolf ngl

oh please you're embarassing me

[Gypyx]

bottom text

[Gypyx]

As am I lmao, we love a setup based around inventors and both kinda had pretty awful actions lmao

this game is just me going through multiple painful stages of learning more info and realizing i completely failed to play around it

[Gypyx]

bloop

Scumslip ????????????

[Gypyx]

yeah likewise

i'm stuck between the wish to make sure i don't miss something obvious but also not wanting to paranoia myself into missing the scum in plain sight

[Gypyx]

VOTE: hu tao

fuck it we ball?

[Gypyx]

I just wanted to make sure we hadn't missed a slip up in the claims, not necessarily suspecting you.

The only issues I had with Gyp's claims she like immediately debunked which was a godsend, which is why I think that if she's wolf she deserves to win.

What's the issue in question out of curiosity? Feels like i've had to recontextualize my role a lot of times lmao

[Gypyx]

muahahahahhahahahaha

i was town

[Gypyx]

Still processing the fact that we're in 5p MElo

like that's so weird

[Gypyx]

lemme go spamping bianco

[Gypyx]

me and bianco need to join forces and design the least normal of the normals

[Gypyx]

i mean, the WIFOM was pretty tame once you understood the main gimmick of the setup

[Gypyx]

i mean, the WIFOM was pretty tame once you understood the main gimmick of the setup

How much worse could you get it

i dunno, we'll see

[Gypyx]

Hey, I saw that a hammer was reached; however, I'm currently in the office and won't be able to resolve stuff for like, a couple hours.

Until then, have some suspenceful Twilight.

https://imgur.com/YoeCrLK

all credits go to laplacian

[Gypyx]

nailbiter to the very end huh

[Gypyx]

well ummmm

see y'all in a few hours i guess

[Gypyx]

jackson you sly rascal

[Gypyx]

wp tho, really wanted to belive you were town for this one

[Gypyx]

I was going to jump on Elements vanilla result on me being fake, but end of day went too fast and I came back to a locked thread.
Don't know if it would make a difference in the outcome, as I didn't have any good leads on last wolf to vig.

i mean, you could've tried to shoot elsewhere and trust we would notice elements claimed a bad result but i kinda see where you're coming from

[Gypyx]

Wait who gave me the cop invention??

black

i gave her the cop inventor

[Gypyx]

what were the infos bianco?

ftr that's a super creative setup but i think it was a fair bit scumsided

[Gypyx]

bottom text

[Gypyx]

funny how the whole scumteam replaced out

[Gypyx]

But also note that, for instance, had HT given the Macho to JV instead of you, the Village would have pretty much unavoidably won after toDay's mislim; so leashing the Macho would have essentially granted the Village an extra elimination yesterDay

I'm shocked Gypyx didn't realise I immediately rejected the idea of getting Macho'd myself. I immediately pivoted cuz that was a "nuh-uh"

tbh i wasn't really considering you as scum so i don't think it would've ever crossed my mind lol

[Gypyx]

I think the thing that was weird with this setup is that town actually had to do a lot of the heavy lifting rather than scum being the ones needing to outplay

[Gypyx]

There's a couple of things I'd like to say about the balance. First off, it was probably a fair bit imperfect; perhaps 13p would have been more appropriate after all, and I don't believe adjusting further would've been necessary (in fact, that would have probably been townsided; if this game lasted another Day, I think Village would have almost surely won). Another musing could be to remove the lazy mod entirely, but then a very awkward situation would happen if only one wolf remained unable to kill.

While I still believe the game was reasonably balanced, for some value of reasonably, it was notably extremely night-oriented, and as such it did heavily punish night actions going badly. The setup contained a pretty considerable number of safeguards to mess with the wolf-given guns; namely, an half-BP, an activated ascetic (which could avoid getting the gun in the first place, or worst case scenario turn a kamikaze shot into just a loyal vig); both were killed off before being able to do anything. Most of all, Gypyx's role was intended as a crucial cornerstone for endgame, but didn't end up working; the fact is that the comp. Strengthener could work as both a delayed RB, and as a way to magically turn a combined Vig/BG into just a Vig; and Macho could be used to much the same effect, but with a faster timing (if a Macho-Inventor and a combined Vig/BG target the same player, that player dies and the BG survives, since the Macho shot, being passive, would use itself immediately). In particular, if today

anyone at all

(except HT) had the Strengthener invention, the game wouldn't have ended.

the problem was that a lot of the thing that needed to be done by town looked like stuff that was pretty unimportant

for instance, the macho / strengthener were the 2 strongest part of my role but it's hard to realize that until very (too) late

kage's role likewise had the modifier cop as it's best part and guess what? it's also the action that looked the most useless

town also lacked some "guaranteed" utility, like, something that could work even if we didn't figure out the mechanics to the best of our ability

[Gypyx]

let's just stay constructive

[Gypyx]

bianco, what i'd advise you is like, if you wanna keep designing games like this with strong concepts but few public info, take 5 roles at random (including VTs) and from that info ask yourself "can i reasonably figure out what's going on with these flips"

[Gypyx]

bianco, what i'd advise you is like, if you wanna keep designing games like this with strong concepts but few public info, take 5 roles at random (including VTs) and from that info ask yourself "can i reasonably figure out what's going on with these flips"

See that's probably a good advice but I'm not sure I'm good enough to follow it. Because, the problem is oftentimes I may think the answer is yes, but only because I'm to biased to be entirely honest with myself, since obviously I do actually know the setup

well, you can always try asking someone else but of course that requires some organisation

[Gypyx]

and he even puts it as his signature

unbelivable

[Gypyx]

and he even puts it as his signature

unbelivable

How could I not

yeah that's fair i would've done that if i was capable of being good at mafia