Mini Normal 2327: Bird Species (Game Over)

[shaddowez]

Hi
VOTE: shaddowez

OMGUS!

VOTE: Naerys

Sidenote, I didn't even pay attention to the playerlist when I /inned, but really like it

[shaddowez]

I'm asking you why you're assuming he's town who wants to kill you for being good at mafia rather than mafia trying to push you for an excuse

good point, Aristeia feels towny thanks to this post

agree

I guess I'm reading this differently than you two, but Black never even alludes to gob being town. 36 reads to me more like she's accusing gob of being spiteful and pushing for a lim rather than actually pegging her as scum this game.

[shaddowez]

I'm asking you why you're assuming he's town who wants to kill you for being good at mafia rather than mafia trying to push you for an excuse

good point, Aristeia feels towny thanks to this post

agree

I guess I'm reading this differently than you two, but Black never even alludes to gob being town. 36 reads to me more like she's accusing gob of being spiteful and pushing for a lim rather than actually pegging her as scum this game.

assuming spite is someone's motive also assumes they're town imo

but explain why it doesn't

Spite means "You beat me last time so I want to lim you here regardless of my alignment or yours". At this point I think it's probably NAI, but if forced to choose a flavor I'd probably say scum. Why? Because scum are looking to get everyone else eliminated, and until closer to endgame even if they 1v1 have more to gain from a mislim.

[shaddowez]

Can I be newbie town too?

[shaddowez]

Will we have a morning newspaper/description with night events or smth like that? Or just "X is dead".

It depends on the mod, but I for one hope that we get some carrion bird facts at least

[shaddowez]

D1 threadplays are worthless.

VOTE: Black

Is this just a way of saying you don't like RVS?

[shaddowez]

I think cakes vote seemed weird though. And nurses post seemed forced that I quoted. I'm fine with either of them being the elimination so far

What do you find weird about the cakes vote? Do you still think that in context of their interactions?

[shaddowez]

@mod

- Forgot the kids have off Monday, v/la until Tuesday

[shaddowez]

I'm here and catching up. There's been a lot. What do I need to know while I'm reading?

[shaddowez]

I think cakes vote seemed weird though. And nurses post seemed forced that I quoted. I'm fine with either of them being the elimination so far

What do you find weird about the cakes vote? Do you still think that in context of their interactions?

Just that he says he's sheeping gob, but gobs vote really was just based off past experiences not this game

I know this is super old at this point, but came back on it during my reread and felt it needed to be addressed. The reason for voting cakez is as weak as the reason you're using for the vote itself. People sheep all the time for worse reasons. The fact that it was post 59 and therefore still RVS makes this look like a reason to vote, not a reason to scumread.

[shaddowez]

Either way, I think nurse is still the best vote right now based off what I said earlier

Just to clarify, this is based strictly off of the fact that you thought one of his posts was forced?

[shaddowez]

But both games I've played where she was scum I called her scum day 1.

Can you link these? Not sure what you call 3p, but you didn't say a word about Black on D1 in 901, and you weren't in the game where her and T3 were scum. Interested in seeing your interactions with her in the games you're referencing.

[shaddowez]

Kinda starting to feel better about gob, he doesnt feel manipulative at all, i can understand fear of Black even if i dont really agree with his push.

I'm trying to make sense of this - you don't like gob's push (fine), but unless you know that Black is town I'm not sure why manipulation is the argument you'd go with for gob's arguments.

[shaddowez]

gob, what are your thoughts on Naerys and her flip of her read on you?

[shaddowez]

T3s ISO is pretty bad, but me voting based purely on that would be a very pot/kettle situation. I really don't like how fast people piled on, several without any reason.

[shaddowez]

T3s ISO is pretty bad, but me voting based purely on that would be a very pot/kettle situation. I really don't like how fast people piled on, several without any reason.

Who joined without reason? I think there's a consensus that the ISO is bad

Hu Tao didn't say anything outside of "being good with it", and while I don't disagree at all that his ISO is bad people just mimicing that and voting based on it don't seem like they're putting any more effort in than if they just said "I'm sheeping <X>" (and for transparency, I specifically mean Naerys' jump onto the wagon).

[shaddowez]

i hate repeating stuff people already said

That's the biggest problem I have with the wagon. Nobody's said anything but "His ISO is really bad", and people are just repeating that and voting him.

[shaddowez]

I don't really have a read on T3.

I guess I'm fine with him being limmed if that's what we're settling on.

Up until his recent posts, this is where I was at too. The "bad ISO" was really just low content with a weak push (?) on Black. However:

why is it scummy? You can't just quote a wall of posts and call it scummy, that doesn't mean anything

i hate repeating stuff people already said

That's the biggest problem I have with the wagon. Nobody's said anything but "His ISO is really bad", and people are just repeating that and voting him.

I think the wagon served a purpose of making T3 do stuff. I don't think the stuff he is doing is all that compelling

These I absolutely agree with. He came back into the thread, didn't even acknowledge his wagon, and tried to...make a case...maybe?.....on Cakez without saying much. The reads lists is weak, and he claims that Black made a towny post while still voting Black. Now, I'm willing to do this.

VOTE: T3

This is E-1

[shaddowez]

didn't even acknowledge his wagon

How am I supposed to acknowledge my wagon, exactly???

The reasons people had voted me was "my ISO is bad"

Wtf do you want me to respond??? istg I get this in literally EVERY game

On one hand, fair. On the other hand, you could have attempted to engage with any of the 5 people on your wagon in a way that could try and convince the rest of us you're town. Instead you just basically threw shade at Cakez and disappeared again.

[shaddowez]

I'm sorta agreeing with gob and don't like the wagon comp, but I don't like the reaction either.

[shaddowez]

True. On the other hand, my ISO really did suck.

StD did something similar to this in my last game where he was scum (came in and just agreed with the reason he was being voted), but I'm getting a slightly different vibe here. I'm not against a T3 lim yet, but don't want someone to come in and derphammer.

UNVOTE:

[shaddowez]

I guess I was trying to demonstrate my towniness by, like, making content. In the past that hasn't really worked, because I'm limmed in virtually every town game I play.

Let's be fair, you

were

scum in the last game I played with you

[shaddowez]

Naerys is playing a lot differently than town games I've been in with her. There's a lot less effort, and 79 and 155 seem like she's setting up a reason to vote later on.

VOTE: Naerys

[shaddowez]

Was at a Cub Scout thing all day. Consolidating for deadline. With a claim and no guarantee I'll be conscious in 15 minutes

VOTE: t3

[shaddowez]

Final solve*: RN/Naerys/StD

*This is based purely on wagon analysis with no other evidence provided. Final does not mean final, and can and will change. Use at your own risk. The author of this statement takes no responsibility for the elimination of innocent townies based on others actions, even if they are done based on this obviously perfect determination.

[shaddowez]

But why

Largely PoE, based on knowns and weak town reads. While not impossibly, it's highly unlikely that all 3 scum are on T3, but based on the fact that there were no votes on scum it's reasonable to assume that all 3 scum were voting. Since T3 was the wagon that went through, my guess is that 2 of the scum were on that wagon. I was SRing Naerys yesterDay (and voting there until deadline), and this hasn't changed. Her position on the wagon is also suspect. So, who's the second? It's not me, Cakez, or Ari, which leaves Black, RN, and Smiley. I'm TRing Smiley, and between the other two since I'm already SRing Naerys the below points me to RN:

Don't worry Naerys: I'm Town again this time.

This doesnt sit well with me, feels like posturing.

As for StD, the only other person I'm not TRing much at all is NaS, but I think it's more likely scum was on a wagon than not.

[shaddowez]

given that Ari was killed whilst voting T3, i think its likely that there is scum not on the T4 wagon as well

Everyone you've listed was on the wagon, so who do you think it could be that was off the wagon?

[shaddowez]

So D1 reads aren't much to go off of, but T3 was SRing Cakez and gob, so not terribly useful there

Ari was SRing Black and NaS. Need to look further there - seems like there were better targets, so there's a better than good chance there's scum in those thar field...reads.

[shaddowez]

Shaddowez the hedgehog

While I'm not quite sure what you mean, I'm not completely against it. That is, provided you have rings for me.

[shaddowez]

It could be that 2 scums were in Cakez wagon (to distance themselves from a mislim) and thus they did not kill Cakez (to play against him) and killed a townie on the T3 train (to compromise other members of the T3 train). I am more inclined to look closer at Cakez wagon for scum search.

SirCakez (4) - Save the Dragons, T3, Hu Tao, gob

Unless you don't believe gob's claim, you're saying that both StD and Hu are scum, there's no "searching".

[shaddowez]

Also what was the benefit of gob claiming right now. Did he think his partner would get heat today or something?

If he's scum then he wanted to out the Vig. He started pushing me when he realized the Vig was one-shot

Which post made him realize the Vig was one-shot?

Snow claimed 1-shot

Snow never claimed 1-shot

[shaddowez]

sus people:
gob
NotAScum
RN
StD

Town:
Smiley
Snow

Hu,Black,shaddowez are null

Why StD in the sus pool?

[shaddowez]

sus people:
gob
NotAScum
RN
StD

Town:
Smiley
Snow

Hu,Black,shaddowez are null

Why StD in the sus pool?

Do you townread StD?

Not particularly, but I also don't TR Naerys. And since she hadn't mentioned him in any post up until then, curious as to what the reason for her read is.

[shaddowez]

Also what was the benefit of gob claiming right now. Did he think his partner would get heat today or something?

If he's scum then he wanted to out the Vig. He started pushing me when he realized the Vig was one-shot

Which post made him realize the Vig was one-shot?

Snow claimed 1-shot

Snow never claimed 1-shot

I noticed this but didn't want to say anything about it. Kind of wished you didn't bring that up

I considered not, but also thought that the reactions could be informative.

[shaddowez]

Do you have a take on the Gob/Snow situation?

Working under the assumption that one is a vig, Snow has a much higher likelihood of being town. He wasn't in any danger of being limmed, so the only thing a cc does is put a target on him if gob ends up limmed and flips green.

Like others have said, it is possible gob was trying to cover for the real vig. However, that's a pretty long gambit - while it would be hard to believe that Cakez was the scum target and Ari was the vig, explicitly stating the target makes it a pretty high bar to hit without knowing which was which. Not infeasible in this situation, but unlikely.

[shaddowez]

Black needs to go. Her attempt at distancing was poor and awkward. It never felt a genuine interaction between gob and Black, her response was over the top and showy. Just go and read her iso and tell me it's a genuine attempt to find a scum, she seemed to have made her mind throughout the conversation with gob. It wasn't genuine at all.

VOTE: Black

Do you SR Black independently, or only via partner equity?

[shaddowez]

I agree with NAS being scum. I think the last is Dragons. I liked Naerys push on gob day 1. I liked shadows overall play. And I don't think random and NAS are a team. I think black is town and I think smiley is town.

What did you like about her push on gob D1?

I think in general I feel pretty good about her atm. I'm currently combing through Gob at the moment though, so that maybe could change things.

Speaking of which, feels like Gob was consistently transitioning between feeling neutral on Naerys and shading/scumreading her. Would say it feels less partnery to me right now

Why does this behavior make them feel less partnery?

For me, I think intuitively it feels less likely scum would consistently hold their partner in that position without there being a softening in opinion at some point. Like there's never really a moment where Gob "feels better about Naerys" like I might expect if partnered. Stuff like 666 where it seems like Gob is less trying to shade Naerys to distance and more like he's trying to make a Naerys lim happen. It feels closer to scum trying to push on town than scum trying to distance from a partner to me.

Looking at it from Naery's end, I also find myself vibing with her Gob push during day 2 as well(it feels like it came at a point where Gob was still up in the air in terms of whether they'd be limmed). I think I lean town on Naerys atm, they're not in the group of people that i'm near 100% sure on being town, but they're also not in the group of people i'd want to look at limming today either right now

Naerys does a similar thing in reverse, first with a SR on gob on D1 switching to a TR somewhat randomly and without explanation in 218. There's some nonsensical back and forth between them, and then her posts on D2 feel forced. 839 and 842 don't make sense for all of a sudden believing he's lying about the vig kill in 852.

VOTE: Naerys

[shaddowez]

I keep forgetting shaddow exists in this game. I suppose he should go into my PoE as well

It wouldn't be a game with both of us and you not an SK for me to not end up in your PoE.

[shaddowez]

Not sure what you mean by partner equity, but mt SR on Black is pure on her back and forth with gob.

That's what I meant. What are your thoughts on the third?

[shaddowez]

I'm back and catching up, but based on what I've read so far I'm comfortable with HT. Her defense on Naerys, regardless of Naerys' alignment, feels like it's forced and not a real town read. Some of the assumptions/reasonings there don't come off as legit.

VOTE: Hu Tao

[shaddowez]

Their*** (I'm so sorry HT!)

[shaddowez]

Because I think one of RN or NAS is scum based on how yesterday went. I think it's NAS

What about NAS' play yesterday makes you think this?

[shaddowez]

I'm back and catching up, but based on what I've read so far I'm comfortable with HT. Her defense on Naerys, regardless of Naerys' alignment, feels like it's forced and not a real town read. Some of the assumptions/reasonings there don't come off as legit.

VOTE: Hu Tao

How come you don't question my read on you?

Because you already said you were going to look more into me, and I care more about trying to find actual scum than waste time asking about people's reads on me.

[shaddowez]

Because I think one of RN or NAS is scum based on how yesterday went. I think it's NAS

What about NAS' play yesterday makes you think this?

The way that they went for black and wanted black over gob. Seems like something a new scum would do. RN I think was just paranoid because I've been literally pretty much confirmed town and he still wanted be eliminated before

That literally didn't happen. They voted gob and didn't vote Black until toDay.

[shaddowez]

I'm back and catching up, but based on what I've read so far I'm comfortable with HT. Her defense on Naerys, regardless of Naerys' alignment, feels like it's forced and not a real town read. Some of the assumptions/reasonings there don't come off as legit.

VOTE: Hu Tao

How come you don't question my read on you?

Because you already said you were going to look more into me, and I care more about trying to find actual scum than waste time asking about people's reads on me.

So you think I'm scum because of my Naerys read but smiley had a similar read to me, which I stated before him

1. Not just because of this
2. Smiley shows his work, doesn't just state final thoughts.
3. I've never said that I agree with Smiley's Naerys read, but based on the above 2 I haven't found anything to directly question about it just yet.

[shaddowez]

Yes, I'm trying to convince smiley that it's sus that everyone is seemingly fine with me being eliminated but the other votes have trouble going through. I don't think everyone willing to vote me is sus clearly it's just that it seems to be the easy vote.

Even though I'm the only one that's only voted you?

[shaddowez]

shaddow why did you not comment on the gob/Snow situation until you were asked about it?

I had been in the office that day, so was catching up when I got back to my hotel that evening between dinner and everything else. Timing just happened to work out that way.

[shaddowez]

shaddow why did you not comment on the gob/Snow situation until you were asked about it?

I had been in the office that day, so was catching up when I got back to my hotel that evening between dinner and everything else. Timing just happened to work out that way.

When you were catching up you didn't say anything about the gob/Snow stuff though. You pointed out that Snow wasn't 1-shot and you asked Naerys about her StD read. Why did you wait until Smiley asked you about the situation before sharing your thoughts about it?

I had 5 posts in about a 2 hour period, including the one where I answered. My other comments were all responses to a single comment, not the situation as a whole. I was responding to the situation, it just happened that Smiley directly asked me about it before I got to post it.

[shaddowez]

1. NAS and Shadow is who I'm thinking at the moment. I agree that Black is likely town. Unless there is another PR out there hiding.

Well, now I'm curious. You said you were going to look back into me, asked why I didn't ask about my read on you, and now all of a sudden after I voted you I'm in your top two. What reasons do you have for your read on me?

[shaddowez]

1. NAS and Shadow is who I'm thinking at the moment. I agree that Black is likely town. Unless there is another PR out there hiding.

Well, now I'm curious. You said you were going to look back into me, asked why I didn't ask about my read on you, and now all of a sudden after I voted you I'm in your top two. What reasons do you have for your read on me?

Well. I think I explained this already. I think nas/rn has one scum only. I think naerys is town. Dragons is conf town. Only leaves you left

So you don't have any explicit scum reads based on activity, just PoE based on people you're townreading?

[shaddowez]

everyone is seemingly fine with me being eliminated but the other votes have trouble going through.

You're getting quite nervous HT, do you feel everyone else is conspiring against you?

this post indeed feels very forced

Unfortunately I don't think black will vote Nas today which limits us voting actual scum

It could be me, but this sounds like TMI

[shaddowez]

everyone is seemingly fine with me being eliminated but the other votes have trouble going through.

You're getting quite nervous HT, do you feel everyone else is conspiring against you?

this post indeed feels very forced

Are you referring to NAS or HT here?

[shaddowez]

rereading time

Yay

I hope you're feeling better

I also hope you're feeling better. How's the reading coming along?

[shaddowez]

everyone is seemingly fine with me being eliminated but the other votes have trouble going through.

You're getting quite nervous HT, do you feel everyone else is conspiring against you?

this post indeed feels very forced

Unfortunately I don't think black will vote Nas today which

limits us voting actual scum

It could be me, but this sounds like TMI

Now you're just scum posting. How is this TMI? Unless you're saying that Nas and I are partners?

The bolded above makes it sound like you know whether or not NAS is scum.

[shaddowez]

Well Vigs are strong but they tend to hit town more often than not which greatly benefits scum. Neo's are weaker than actual cops because they can't distinguish between a town PR and scum

viewtopic.php?t=92020

This is the game I'm comparing to. Scum had a 1 shot. Town had 3 pr. I don't really consider BP a pr but yeah

That's an interesting game to link. I realize it's only one comparison, but your play seems different than that game, and Naerys' feels very similar.

[shaddowez]

I'm also not sure why you would compare this game to just one game and be satisfied with your conclusion

Smaller sample size means less room for error, obviously!

[shaddowez]

Also, my conclusion was just that the play was similar between the two games. While those two are two of my top SR ATM, that was based purely on play this game....I've been burned more by meta than it's worked out for me, so I try not to use it regularly.

[shaddowez]

Shaddow what is your current readslist

About to head off for the night, but putting this in my ISO to come back to tomorrow.

[shaddowez]

I'm back and catching up, but based on what I've read so far I'm comfortable with HT. Her defense on Naerys, regardless of Naerys' alignment, feels like it's forced and not a real town read. Some of the assumptions/reasonings there don't come off as legit.

VOTE: Hu Tao

How come you don't question my read on you?

Because you already said you were going to look more into me, and I care more about trying to find actual scum than waste time asking about people's reads on me.

So you think I'm scum because of my Naerys read but smiley had a similar read to me, which I stated before him

1. Not just because of this
2. Smiley shows his work, doesn't just state final thoughts.
3. I've never said that I agree with Smiley's Naerys read, but based on the above 2 I haven't found anything to directly question about it just yet.

Have you played with me before?

Can you answer this question BTW. Not sure if you missed it

Sorry, I did miss this - yes, but I think it's only been 1 game.

[shaddowez]

Shaddow what is your current readslist

About to head off for the night, but putting this in my ISO to come back to tomorrow.

From least likely to be scum to most likely to be scum:

{shaddowez} - because I know my alignment, therefore the most sure I'm the towniest
{smiley, STD} - smiley because unless he has us all fooled has been townie all game, and STD because of the PR clear
{Black} - because she's impossible for me to read. I'm pretty sure she's town though, unless it's a smiley/Black team
{NaS} - doesn't scream town, but doesn't scream scum either
{RN, Naerys} - still SR Naerys, and could see some partner equity with RN.
{HT} - because I'm voting here

[shaddowez]

What do you think about shaddow?

Its my prefered lim for today, tbh.

Why?

[shaddowez]

What do you think about shaddow?

Its my prefered lim for today, tbh.

Why?

[shaddowez]

Thanks for running this Ausuka!

Good game all! Also - tfw you realize you had 2/3 of the scum team pegged on D1.