Open 135 - Polygamist Mafia, Incomplete/Mod Error before 775

[Wall-E]

/cumfirm

[Wall-E]

[Wall-E]

heh heh i was born nasty *chainsaw-guitar solo*

[Wall-E]

vote: Archon

for making me laugh at a falling man's pain

[Wall-E]

This is a post that would be flooded with content if the game were on.

[Wall-E]

Agreeing with 46.

Vote: Tenchi

L-4

[Wall-E]

Not really. Any reason for the unvote? He wasn't in any immediate danger.

[Wall-E]

Not really. Any reason for the unvote? He wasn't in any immediate danger.

Correct, but I detest random bandwagons and the RVS in general. I feel what I stated in my above post, that the bandwagon, that seems to be based on nothing in particular, will do little good besides Tenchi claiming a Lover (He could fakeclaim, of course, but we would have little evidence of such to begin with), which I don't believe would be particularly beneficial to the town. I fail to see any benefit that a random wagon gives us in this game, simply because we'll have no way of knowing if Polygamists are fakeclaiming lovers, or if we have legitimate lover claims. It may also put pressure on Techi, but at the moment he has absolutely nothing to defend against, so the pressure will be weak at best. I'd prefer to wait until I see something legitimately scummy to vote, and potentially for a bandwagon to form.

Four of us have three friends who won't let one of their own die. Under any circumstances. Your fear of the Tenchi wagon (bussing in the RVS?) is noted. Having strong emotions about a particular course of events in mafia is anti-town, because every scenario is helpful in different ways, so hating RVS bandwagons is both irrational and counterproductive.

[Wall-E]

Personally I don't see Pie as jumpy, just upset at the speed with which the bandwagon formed on Tenchi. As for me, I tend to err on the side of risky plays, so I like a good early-game wagon, but certainly I know that not everyone is like me and Pie's caution is therefore justified (even if faked to cover jumpiness).

I'd also like to point out that it's possible Pie was bussing his partner to keep the scum off his trail? He seems to be the only one who was concerned with Tenchi's life.

Tenchi's vote on him would suggest otherwise, though, and if they are not partners I don't think Pie is scum. Tenchi wouldn't have pushed the distancing further with his vote.

Unvote: Vote: Tenchi

Hi Tenchi!

[Wall-E]

While I liked my post 74, I like pie's latest more. I'd join the mikek wagon if it came up strongly and mikek failed to properly address it, and for the record, I love to hammer.

[Wall-E]

The logic in my prior two posts is the link between them.

What do you think of post 74, Ace? Specifically of my analysis of Pie and Tenchi's alignments?

[Wall-E]

I like the zwet idea.

Unvote: Vote: zwetschenwasser

IGMEOTenchi

[Wall-E]

zwet, you'd garner a lot less negative attention if you didn't seem to crave it

your signature alone tells me you're considered something of a troll and proud of it

when you make a claim, like, "That vote was OMGUS!" you have to back the claim by showing some supporting evidence

simply repeating yourself won't convince anyone

in fact, it will likely get you hung

if you took the time to outline WHY you think a vote on you is OMGUS others might listen

it's completely useless to all of us for you to have a pissing match with another player, going back and forth saying, Nuh uh! Yeah huh! Nuh uh!

you don't have to be telling the truth, but you do need to be convincing... as it is now i'm afraid i'm going to have to push for your lynch whenever you do things like this: There is a reason this happens to you. Your pride in it is distasteful in the extreme.

i'm only telling you all of this because i've seen some very insightful posts from you in the past and i know you've got things to bring to the table that we need

[Wall-E]

That is a fair point.

Next time explain yourself first so there is no way I can say this:

You came up with that reason after I called you out, scumbum!

[Wall-E]

Actually no, I assumed that you would see the blatant OMGUSery in Tenchi's post without my help.

Assume: Make an ass out of you and me.

[Wall-E]

i feel stupider now

[Wall-E]

What did you personally learn from zwet's reaction?

[Wall-E]

everyone stop feeding the troll so much

zwet stop being intentionally cryptic for attention

HAEL NAU or whatever you said is

not

obviously the words, "Hell no." You really expect anyone to understand that? Being cryptic is anti-town in this case.

[Wall-E]

Here's the thing: I can't distinguish between zwets as a troll and zwets as scum. He's ruining my reads of EVERYONE ELSE in this game, and so I want him (and his three scumbuds) to die.

[Wall-E]

Explain please.

[Wall-E]

While it is an AtE, such things can be null-tells, and it's a very believable post regardless of the departure point.

*sigh*

It doesn't look like Archon is going to be posting much in this game. At least zwet is around to play, I'll say that much.

[Wall-E]

While it is an AtE, such things can be null-tells, and it's a very believable post regardless of the departure point.

*sigh*

I don't know what to say since you used to prosecute me because for it (Appeal to Emotion) in our previous game.

I was scum.

[Wall-E]

I think that zwet's crazy enough to bus his partner, and I'm even more convinced of this given how he's denying the viability of the tactic.

Unvote: Vote: zwetschenwasser

just in case.

[Wall-E]

Just in case I'm not already voting for zwets.

[Wall-E]

Unvote: Vote Tenchi

[Wall-E]

Yep, a whole bunch of people are trolling for information.

Tell you what. Everyone post a link to one game in which you were scum.

http://sharkey.gamespite.net/forum/inde ... pic=2546.0

Honestly, nobody has ever been able to get an accurate meta-read off me. But there you go.

[Wall-E]

I'm Guildenstern in that game, BTW.

[Wall-E]

oh, and please don;t vote for zwet. Give me a moment.

Still waiting. I will vote you if you post again with no explaination of this post.

[Wall-E]

*you and Archon and Wall-E

I still think Archon is actively lurking though. Notice that instead of commenting on other players, he is commenting on his activity.

Archon: Answering my questions on 214 may change my mind.

Bargaining with your vote?

[Wall-E]

Unvote: Vote: Archon

for being super-nervous about losing for the scumteam.

[Wall-E]

Unvote: Vote: zwets

The last thing we want is for zwets to win this game. I really hope I'm not Hitler.

[Wall-E]

ZWETS YOU KNOW I CAN'T TELL WHEN YOU ARE BEING FACETIOUS!!!

mumble mumble

I'm keeping my vote on zwets because he's up to something.

[Wall-E]

Appeal to emotion (pity).

[Wall-E]

He's clearly lying or joking. Notice the nazi comment right before it. The coincidence would be too great for someone to say Nazi and then zwets to pop up with Hitler Sympathizer or whatever he said.

[Wall-E]

If I had my druthers we'd kill Archon/zwets today.

[Wall-E]

Is... is that my very first game on mafiascum? How cute!

[Wall-E]

hah

[Wall-E]

I read Archon town.

Unvote: Vote Tenchi

Good odds he's scum, and he's pushing a case I totally disagree with.

[Wall-E]

Please note that I completely refuse to give evidence on why anyone in this game is or could be town.

As far as why Tenchi is scum, his case would be great against a player with a different meta, but against Archon I simply do not see merit here. Archon's failure to defend is noted as scummy, however.

For the record, two very pro-town looking players may try to distance (bussing) to keep the scum from targeting them at night and eliminating them together. It's a very slim chance, but I have already done it with my own partner.

[Wall-E]

ITT mykonian's most recent post mirrors my own thoughts on Tenchi. He's pushing a cruddy case. He did this as town in the game we last played together, but this time he's doing it much earlier and on far less evidence.

[Wall-E]

Looker, I think we'd just generally like some comments from you and myk was giving you an opening if you wanted it.

I can't really comment on the Archon case besides it being a total misrep.

I can't really ask you to explain his erratic actions, but I will ask what do you think is being misrepresented, and by whom? To what end?

Hear hear!

Please note that I completely refuse to give evidence on why anyone in this game is or could be town.

Can you explain why? Or would that be giving things away, too..

I forgot this was NIGHTLESS!

Ok, I've never played a nightless before, so the implications of the setup hadn't occured to me yet. That said, I'm adjusting my policies accordingly, and would like to officially retract all my stupid statements to-date.

For the record, two very pro-town looking players may try to distance (bussing) to keep the scum from targeting them at night and eliminating them together. It's a very slim chance, but I have already done it with my own partner.

This set-up is nightless. So that doesn't apply in this game.

I'm going to fully explain why I think Archon's town in my next post.

[Wall-E]

Looker, I heard far too little from some people, and direct questions may help to get you talking. You avoided the question nicely

You didn't ask one.

Wall-e, does Tenchi know that he is slightly known for pushing weak cases?

Uh, let's ask him. Tenchi, are you known for pushing weak cases?

And can someone explain to me why distancing helps town?

It doesn't. I'm stupid.

Archon is town:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

Modkilled in this game for claiming that the mod gave him permission to quote a PM the mod accidentally sent him describing the scum setup. Died town and lived a spazzy, non-contributing life while alive. He was aware of the discrepancy which was probably his major motivation for posting the PM in the first place. (off the record, KoC's call to modkill you was unfortunately necessary, but his own fault ultimately for tempting you with that and not qualifying that you aught not post it)

This is the only game he's completed. He acted the fool and learned some lessons about how to play here and he's about as good as I was when I first joined last year. Most every post I've seen from him when looking through his "View all posts by this user" list contains a scumtell, an appeal to emotion, fluff or something similar. It's his meta, and I won't lynch him for it. Neither should Tenchi.

I'm not saying he's guaranteed town by any stretch, but his meta would suggest that this game is just business as usual for him, and further evidence would be requred to convince me.

[Wall-E]

As I said before, my meta knowledge of Tenchi is that he's more hesitant as town to push a case. I'm waiting to see how he reacts to my previous post.

[Wall-E]

Nope, sorry. He probably knows more about me than I do of him, since he was playing town and I was a scummy scum-scum.

[Wall-E]

Unvote: Vote: Archon

because Looker and I are polygamists pushing a mislynch.

What about Tenchi's case is so compelling to you, Looker? You say it's a good case, but what convinced you to vote Archon? The schedule post? It looks pretty real to me.

[Wall-E]

IS THAT SOME KIND OF JOKE

[Wall-E]

Woman: You're joking, right?

Kay: No ma'am, we at the CIA have no sense of humor that we are aware of.

Sigh. Well if I've screwed the pooch, sorry. I've been yelling at people all day not to joke around me because I don't get jokes (hence I suck at making them). Sorry myco, I certainly won't begrudge the vote.

[Wall-E]

Hrm. I can't believe myconian would policy vote me like that. I actually expect better from him than that.

[Wall-E]

Unvote.

Nothing to add for now.

[Wall-E]

Tenchi, even before reading, five posts in a row is not the way to do it.

Not a scumtell.

he is rather jumpy though

[Wall-E]

Post 341 means that Wall-E and Looker cannot credibly claim to be lovers, so that can't be the scumteam.

Unvote: Vote mikek

Guys, this game is over. Mikek is the scum, and he's just lost for his team.

[Wall-E]

you would

[Wall-E]

ad hominem

there's nothing wrong with me mykonian

i just found your partner out is all

you seem awfully concerned... do you want to claim lovers with looker?

[Wall-E]

Um?

Wait, how do I keep gettin caught up in this Wall-E/Looker lover situation? That ain't got nothin to do with me so keep that little unfunny jokey joke attributed to Wall-E cause it ain't none of my business.

Also, the strong buddying between [Archon] and Wall-e is noted, and I now think the scum team is: Archon/zwet/Wall-e/Looker.

Post 341 means that Wall-E and Looker cannot credibly claim to be lovers, so that can't be the scumteam.

Archon and zwet claimed lovers. In 341 Looker claimed that he's not Wall-E's lover. So it can't be that Archon, Zwet, Looker, and Wall-E are all scum (or if they are, they've really screwed up because now Wall-E and Looker have no lover to credibly claim). Is this really that complicated?

Wall-E, you're pretty exasperating. Try answering some questions and giving some reasoning behind your actions (if there is any).

I miss questions sometimes because I find something I want to say and forget to answer them. I'll gladly answer anyquestions, please be patient with em.

I had an idea based on the Looker/Me thing. Everyone should go around now and say the name of one player who is NOT their lover. No two people are allowed to say the same person. From this I will be able to divine several things using Excel. Thoughts? Looker's already done me, so I'll say that Acemarksman is not my lover.

[Wall-E]

Please note that nobody is being forced to do this! Let's discuss it first!

[Wall-E]

I was just wondering that myself. I got all excited over my idea. Sorry.

[Wall-E]

Instead of starting yet another tangential discussion you should slow down, stop flailing, and answer the questions being asked of you.

Why did you go from defending Archon to voting for him?
Why did you claim scum?
Why did you name Looker as a scumpartner?
Why did you unvote Archon?
Why did you vote for me?

I defended Archon because I believed him to be town.

I voted him to see what the reaction would be.

The joke was a joke, both partially to see how Archon would react and test my meta on him and to see how the town reacted to the possibility of his lynch.

I unvoted Archon because I still think he's town.

[Wall-E]

Assembling the answer to the last one.

[Wall-E]

Instead of starting yet another tangential discussion you should slow down, stop flailing, and answer the questions being asked of you.

Why did you go from defending Archon to voting for him?
Why did you claim scum?
Why did you name Looker as a scumpartner?
Why did you unvote Archon?
Why did you vote for me?

I defended Archon because I believed him to be town.

I voted him to see what the reaction would be, both partially to see how Archon would react and test my meta on him and to see how the town reacted to the possibility of his lynch.

The joke was a joke.

I unvoted Archon because I still think he's town.

Fixed.

[Wall-E]

PBPA: mikek

First post: Confirmation

Second post: After giving zwets a pass on his one-liner posting style due to meta, he goes on to parrot someone else's call-out of Pie's mini-flip-out. Next, he says this:

By the way, I'm pretty sure that we're going to massloverclaim before this day is up. This will provide us with useful info---it greatly reduces the number of possible combinations of players that could be polygamists, which makes it easier to analyse votes and such. I don't think it gets the polygamists much, either.

This rhetoric without reasoning is him greasing the wheels for a lover claim because he knows it would help the scum more than the town (it's case-by-case, but any massclaim is usually a bad idea day 1, in my honest opinion). He goes on, in his third post, to justify the massclaim's usefulness, because he's already stuck his head in.

I vote him and state my suspicions, and he ignores me, instead posting this:

About massclaim, I looked back at the previous polygamist game (viewtopic.php?t=9086) and they unanimously went for massclaim by the end of page 2. Thinking it through, here are what I see the advantages and disadvantages as being:

Pros

• Simplifies the game
  - A massclaim reduces the number of distinct entities from 12 to 6. It basically reduces this game to Lovers Mafia (4 townies, 2 mafia lovers) except with each "person" having two votes and two voices. Instead of looking for a group of 4 in 12 individuals, we'll be looking for 2 groups out of 6 to be linked. This exponentially reduces the number of possible groupings we have to hypothesize about.
  
• Can help catch scum
  - Once we know everyone's claimed lover, we can look more skeptically at any linkings/distancings between people who claim not to be related. Scum may have contradicted themselves or revealed inconsistencies, depending upon what situations arise.
  
• Removes noise
  - We've got a bit of a problem initially in that if two people seem to be linked, it could just be because they are a townie lover pair. Once we know all the claimed pairs, we won't get this noise interfering with scum hunting.

Cons

• Reveals targets
  - If a pair of townies are both particularly scummy or weak at defending themselves, that might make them a target for the scum to try and push a lynch on.
  
• Trains scum
  - Once the polygamists have made their false claims in-thread, they'll be more aware of the possibility of slipping up and revealing their true status.

Anything else? The conclusion I draw from this is that a massclaim gets us more information than it gets the polygamists, and it gets us more useful information if we don't do it right away. So I think we're going to want to massclaim eventually, but not right now. Probably late day one or early-to-mid day two. Thoughts?

Talking about something, even to denounce it (which he's clearly not) is a sign of interest. Like the little kid who studiously avoids looking at girl in his class or a man who repeatedly begins discussions about how vile he finds a certain kind of pornography... mikek, by talking (albiet neutrally) about a lover claim, is demonstrating a positive desire for it. The sooner the better.

His fourth and fifth posts are 'chime-in on the hot-topic' posts. His tone is neutral at best.

At this point zwetschenwasser and Tenchi got into the most ironic circle-jerk of a WIFOM mindbang I've ever seen and it's hilarious. Tenchi tried to teach zwets why his actions were anti-town by doing the same thing back

to him

and wound up getting voted for it.

Note here, in [*code*] tag to differentiate it from the case on mikek:

Code: Select all

sekinji uses rhetoric to back mikek's attempts to keep the massclaim idea circulating. Possible connection.

...but then...

182 has me thinking he's town.

231 nearly eliminates Archon as scum in my book once-and-for-all: Despite this I vote him to see his reaction.

247: zwetschenwasser continues to be a spaz. I'm really starting to hate that the most town-looking candidate is so linked to him, and being never 100% sure of anyone, I'm starting to push my zwets policy lynch a bit harder.

OK, Easter weekend was a busy time for me and other people too, by the looks of things. Let's get cracking.

Firstly, welcome to our new players, Jazzmyn and Looker!

Secondly, wow, y'all post a lot. Got 100+ some posts to catch up on here. I won't comment on every little thing that catches my eye, although I'll be taking some extra notes for cross-referencing later. One thing I think will be useful is noting down who seems like they could or couldn't be partners and why. This might catch scum forced to claim.

Page 6: Tenchi prodding zwet further. Apparently zwet doesn't think Wall-E, Archon, or Ace have valid reasons for voting for him, but doesn't give any justification.

What about it?

Page 7: Tenchi says Archon's last few posts have been content-light. I think that's fair. ortolan makes a long post, most of which I agree with. What I find odd about it is how much he defends zwet (subtly, but he does). He also questions AceMarksman vis-a-vis the massclaim discussion. Ace responded:

Linking players together into scum-triangles. Further clears zwets/Archon in my book.

My argument was "your cons in your previous post outweigh the pros IMHO." And this standpoint was for today, and I never supported not claiming at all, just massclaiming. We've got to see our position tomorrow to determine if a massclaim is needed.

His reasons are pretty vague but I think I've come to generally agree. My position: massclaim day one only if we can determine it will really help in some tangible way (probably don't). Massclaim day two when it's useful. This may be towards the end to allow us all the logic available to make the right choice, or it may be early on on Day 2 to direct our thoughts and scumhunting. What we should definitely not do is claim Day 1 unless it's obviously beneficial.

[a small amount of hot-topic commentary with fence-sitting, then...]

To me, those favouring early massclaim are suspicious; those who think it is suspicious to favour a massclaim later, e.g. Day 2 are suspicious; those who are defending those who appear to favour an early massclaim are suspicious. This means Archon, Zwet, Ortolan, and Mikek.

I don't think I fit into any of those categories, so I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Again, fixated on the massclaim idea and commenting mostly on his own scummy call for it.

Jazzmyn makes the case that in this game zwet is not town with a scummy playstyle, but scum with a scummy playstyle! She also notes that Ortolan has been defending zwet, and that Archon's claim to be removing a random vote wasn't quite kosher. Possible linkage?

More linking of other players into triangles.

Tenchi again asserts/asks that Zwet and Archon cannot be buddies. Zwet claims that bussing is not a viable tactic here. He's right scum cannot afford any of their own to be lynched, but he's not right that this means they can't argue/distance. Ace and Jazz question zwet's interpretation, and Wall-E is moved enough to actually place a vote.

Page 9: Archon OMGUSs Tenchi and asks for people not to vote zwet. Wall-E immediately unvotes and follows the vote onto Tenchi. WTF is that about? Tenchi and Ace call him out on this. Zwet says Wall-E is obviously town because he's acting crazy and... unvotes tenchi.

Archon gets worked up...

Tell you what. Everyone post a link to one game in which you were scum.

Sorry, I've never been scum.

Page 10: Looker replaces sekinj.

Ace calls out Archon on his OMGUS vote and votes for him. I think his logic is good.

Archon claims his lover is zwet. Um. This is a big thing, more on this below. Zwet confirms. Wall-E votes Archon (reasonable..).

Zwets makes a stupid joke claim. Wall-E votes him for it (?).

OK, that's basically up to where we are now.

So the biggest issue at this point I think is Archon's claim and whether we believe it. Frankly I find it kind of frustrating reading back over Archon and zwet's posts. They both seem to be very erratic players, however this could easily just be the way they play rather than an alignment-tell. Honestly, they've both been very anti-town. Archon with his claim (after consensus that early claim is bad!) and zwet with his... well... shall I say zwettishness?

What I find hardest to understand is the exchange between zwet and Archon on page 7. It doesn't make sense to me with them as town, and it doesn't make sense to me with them as scum, either. If they're town, why is zwet casting suspicion on Archon? Why call him a liar? If they're scum trying to distance, why on Earth did Archon claim zwet as partner? Are they just scum acting totally irrationally so we can't read them?

I also notice that Archon cast his first vote for Zwet, for asking why Pie is alive. Distancing? When he removed this later he claimed it had been a random vote, which does not ring true (as Jazzmyn said). Did he realize his error and try to correct it?

Archon's response to Tenchi accusing him of lurking was off kilter. Ever since then he's appeared very angry.

What we have to decide is what is Archon's motivation here. Is he a townie who's genuinely pissed off and claiming his partner because he's fed up? Is he scum who has melted down and claimed a lover in the belief this will remove suspicion? Is he scum who's feigning being a pissed off townie to clear himself and one of his scum partners? I know which way I'm leaning on this question, but I'd like to see everyone active and commenting on this situation.

Mod: Can you prod PieIsPopcorn please.
Mod: Votecount, please.

- Wall-E's note: This isn't scumhunting.

@Archon: Why did you claim, what is your reasoning here? Why did you vote for your claimed partner in the first post?

@zwet: Why were you arguing with your claimed partner on page seven? What's up with the stupid falseclaim?

@ortolan: Why were you so defensive of zwet in your big post?

@Tenchi: Why didn't you ask the mod to prod PieIsPopcorn? What do you think about your earlier claim Archon + zwet cannot be buddies together, now?

Despite all the scummy things I've done - voting with no justification, declaring one claimed lover scum and his partner town, throwing an accusation on mikek with no real explaination - he fails to even basically scumhunt by directly addressing me with a single question. Instead he's focusing on the clusterfuck WIFOM mindbang exclusively and pushing the massclaim by trying to keep the town on-topic about it. Once even one person claims he'll have useful information, and as long as he plays it cool he always has a safeclaim in one of his three partners.

A golfball sitting near a hole will never fall into the hole. It's only when the ball is moving that it can fall in. Discussion about a massclaim is the movement (regardless of the direction, it's still movement) and the massclaim is the ball. Actually doing it is when someone drops the ball into the hole, at which point we can't get it back (no metaphor is perfect).

More to come.

[Wall-E]

Wall-e, it was one big gambit?

what did you get out of it?

and for the new people: please don't use things like this. This is or an excuse for scummy play, or town that made a play that is hurting him, and giving low profit.

What percentage value does a vote have weighed against a huge block of text that clears someone as town?

That's the only defense I will give on this issue.

[Wall-E]

Wall-e, what are you doing here?

You do two things: you say massclaim is bad, and he is advocating it

you say it is bad to look for unnatural links.

This is the way this game has to be played: first, you try to find links, or make them unlikely, after that, by massclaim, you can see who lied about there lovers, who reacted weird on their lovers etc. Mike has read a previous game, scumhunts in a way that is required for this game, and all you can say is: "massclaim is always bad", and "he is looking at connections"

why is massclaim always bad?

because with the nightkill, mafia can abuse it: there is no nightkill, so a massclaim benefits town because it gives us information, and that same information can't be abused by mafia. The fact that you step over this because "massclaim is always bad" is rubbish.


and connections, seriously, you want to be looking for them. IT IS A LOVER GAME! What do you want to be looking for, if the only thing that differentiates scum from town is that they have two more links? No town wants his lover to die, something that is the way you look for scum in a normal game. Here you need to look as mike does, and you call him scummy for it.

Wall-e, please stop this insanity. You were better in the start of the game.

Please tell me: What will be the benefits of a massclaim?

I won't change a long-standing policy of not claiming without justification just because you ask me to tell you why I won't.

The bolded is you shifting the burden of proof to me.

It's not, "What's wrong with a massclaim?" it's "What are the benefits?" I see none. You seem to support one, so please enlighten me. Better yet, don't. You're giving the scum what they want. Let's just skip to lynching mikek for BEING scum and PUSHING this idea.

[Wall-E]

mykonian: A vote is just a bolded name. A block of text demonstrating an in-depth look into another player's alignment, rather a relevant subject considering Archon's plays and the attention surrounding them, is never a bad thing. Can anyone say how it would be? Honest question there. So the question is this: Which, in your mind, holds more weight about how I feel about Archon - a single, bolded name or a block of text outlining why he's town? If the answer is the vote, I'm hoping you'll accept my word that I was pressuring him. If not, you'll probably keep your vote on me and I'll just feel bad.

[Wall-E]

no, wall-e, you say it is scummy, then you should tell me why it is bad.

Lets tell you why it is good to massclaim. That way, if you got two people that are scummy, and they are lovers, you've got a bigger chance that you've got scum. If you find a pair with one protown, and one antitown player, you need to think about that. It is plain and simple information that is beneficial for town, because it increases the quality of the lynch.

Now tell me why your policy of no massclaim is so good, and why we should absolutely lynch Mike for it...

Alright, point taken.

Claiming at all will give the scum a ton of information. It will give us zero, but lock the scum into their claims, which they undoubtedly have already set-up.

Your turn.

[Wall-E]

good townies point their fingers as they see fit regardless of the rest of the town's opinion on said player (especially in a nightless, where 'who's town' is not taboo to discuss)

[Wall-E]

What benefit would I gain as scum, though?

I got that Archon's town, 70% sure.

[Wall-E]

Do not vote for mikek if you disagree with me. I'm just one man, and I think I've found scum. Draw your own conclusions.

That should handle the, "Asking in a personal way," bit.

[Wall-E]

What benefit would I gain as scum, though?

Did you want to get on to the archon weagon, without knowing good reasons to get on it, and used a joke instead?

Wall-e, he got 5 votes! Only two more, and that would have been a lynch. With bandwagon eager people (Jazzmyn), you could suddenly have caused a lynch, and of course people on the end would be to blame...

That's just insulting.

[Wall-E]

heh

I meant it was insulting to the town.

And if we got a quicklynch on Archon before I had a chance to unvote, odds are good the hammerer would be scum.

[Wall-E]

Scum as in the same thing archon is? So you mean we get two for the price of one...?

Hey yeah! Suck that, myconian

[Wall-E]

The what in the what?

[Wall-E]

See, zwet thinks I'm scum! The defense rests!

[Wall-E]

Not really what?

[Wall-E]

Scum as in the same thing archon is? So you mean we get two for the price of one...?

I absolutley hate this. This screams of noob-scum-tell. Only a nooby idiot that is scum would so carelessly put this out in a fashoin of "well we all know archon is scum."

You have misread what was being said here. Please go back and re-read it. Ad hominem is discouraged when not clearly intended good-naturedly, as well. Please don't use ad hominem if possible.

[Wall-E]

I had an idea based on the Looker/Me thing. Everyone should go around now and say the name of one player who is NOT their lover. No two people are allowed to say the same person. From this I will be able to divine several things using Excel. Thoughts? Looker's already done me, so I'll say that Acemarksman is not my lover.

Yeah, this is a good idea (sarcasm). It is exactely the same as a lover-claim, for everyone who even bothers to use exel. Why not just lover-claim then Wall-E? This is the same right?

wall-e, Why would a townie be purposely disorientated, lying, to eager scum hunting, unclear and why would a townie claim scum?

You just don't make sense. It looks like you are really doing your best, but I know different

You do not understand how the plan will work, and if I explain it the scum can weasel out of it.

I'm just one man, and I think I've found scum. Draw your own conclusions.

indeed

vote: Wall-E

Fair enough.

[Wall-E]

Unvote

because I'm not so certain mikek would have done as much lover-themed mafia game research as scum as he has. I also appreciate him (grudgingly) addressing my concerns, and he's convinced me I was up the wrong tree again.

Hrm. Gregory. Gregory Gregory Greg.

Why the vote?

[Wall-E]

Bah, you can explain any scummy action away as "fishing for reactions". Eventually, that excuse is not enough.

You have never played a game with DGB, obviously. She does that shit ALL THROUGH THE GAME. It's completely infuriating.

[Wall-E]

Post 341 means that Wall-E and Looker cannot credibly claim to be lovers, so that can't be the scumteam.

Unvote: Vote mikek

Guys, this game is over. Mikek is the scum, and he's just lost for his team.

Wall-E, explain the above post.

I had the thought that, like nightkill speculation, speculating on who isn't partners with whom could be considered a scumtell. It's unsupported by any precident, so I dropped the idea.

mikek, who is scum in this game and why? Please refrain from telling me I'm scum. I know my alignment. I'm interested in your opinion on other players.

[Wall-E]

Walle is voting mikek or not?

Not.

And stop changing your avatar! It's really annoying getting used to a new picture every time I read this thread!

[Wall-E]

If we haven't decided who to lynch by the 29th nobody will die. Are we OK with that? It would only essentially reset the votes.

Personally, I like days to go on forever. And ever. And ever.

But that's just me.

[Wall-E]

no, days going on and on and on are not good, the town talks it's self out of good ideas.

then again, this game is nightless...

This is rhetoric. Can you link me to a game where the town talked itself out of a good idea? If not, please keep your unfounded opinions to yourself.

[Wall-E]

Is it the exception or the rule? Your example (though we haven't actually seen it) seems to indicate it's the rule that longer days help the town.

Are we going to follow my plan? Everyone claims one person who isn't their lover? It will work very well so long as the rules are followed:

Rule 1: Everyone must claim one person who is not their lover.
Rule 2: No two players may claim that the same player is not their lover.

[Wall-E]

who is gonna claim next?

claimed

Mykonian: not lovers with Looker
AceMarksman: not lovers with Archon
Looker:Not lovers with Tenchi
Tenchi: not lovers with ortolan
Wall-E: not lovers with AceMarksman

Ace: Can we be fair about this whole thing? I mean its pretty obvious you cannot be in a threesome with Archon.

Claim somebody else.

Pause. Do we want Ace to claim again?

No.

Don't claim someone new.

The remaining options for those who have not claimed yet:

mykonian
Gregory
Jazzmyn
PieIsPopcorn
sekinj
Seraphim
Wall-E
zwetschenwasser

Others need to claim NOT their lover. Make sure that you all say the word NOT so as to keep people jumping back into the thread after a long absence from claiming their ACTUAL lover by mistake. Also to keep scum from trying this and using the slip as an excuse to do so.

[Wall-E]

EBWOP: I believe that I threw the mod's name in by mistake. I was reading the names off the scrolltab at the bottom of the thread.

[Wall-E]

Life's not fair, kiddo.

[Wall-E]

Those who have already NOT-claimed:

Mykonian: not lovers with Looker
AceMarksman: not lovers with Archon
Looker:Not lovers with Tenchi
Tenchi: not lovers with ortolan
Wall-E: not lovers with AceMarksman
Gregory: not lovers with Jazzmyn
mikek: not lovers with Gregory

Those who haven't been NOT-claimed yet:

mikek
mykonian
PieIsPopcorn
Seraphim
Wall-E
zwetschenwasser

Those who haven't NOT-claimed yet and still need to:

zwetschenwasser
Jazzmyn
Tenchi
Archon
ortolan
PieIsPopcorn

[Wall-E]

Edit:

Those who have already NOT-claimed:

mykonian: not lovers with Looker
AceMarksman: not lovers with Archon
Looker:Not lovers with Tenchi
Tenchi: not lovers with ortolan
Wall-E: not lovers with AceMarksman
Gregory: not lovers with Jazzmyn
mikek: not lovers with Gregory
ortolan: not lovers with mykonian

Those who haven't been NOT-claimed yet:

mikek
PieIsPopcorn
Seraphim
Wall-E
zwetschenwasser

Those who haven't NOT-claimed yet and still need to:

zwetschenwasser
Jazzmyn
Tenchi
Archon
PieIsPopcorn

[Wall-E]

Edit:

Those who have already NOT-claimed:

mykonian: not lovers with Looker
AceMarksman: not lovers with Archon
Looker:Not lovers with Tenchi
Tenchi: not lovers with ortolan
Wall-E: not lovers with AceMarksman
Gregory: not lovers with Jazzmyn
mikek: not lovers with Gregory
ortolan: not lovers with mykonian
Archon: not lovers with Wall-E

Those who haven't been NOT-claimed yet:

mikek
PieIsPopcorn
zwetschenwasser

Those who haven't NOT-claimed yet and still need to:

zwetschenwasser
Jazzmyn
PieIsPopcorn

[Wall-E]

I agree with 527.

[Wall-E]

Azm

mikek, is Gregory your lover?

ANYONE ELSE WHO ANSWERS THIS QUESTION OR ADDRESSES THIS POST IN ANY WAY BEFORE MIKEK ANSWERS IS ANTI-TOWN: DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST UNLESS YOUR HANDLE IS MIKEK please.

Only tell me the answer to that if you are town. If you are scum, the wrong answer will get you killed.

FYI.

[Wall-E]

HOLA MIKEK

I'm not going to do a PBPA because they are very time consuming both to create and for you guys to read, and I find they are usually unpersuasive.

And yet...

Wall-E posted a lot of fluffy posts

, especially early on. I'll not be addressing those individually, but I will note that posting fluff increases your apparent activity without actually helping to scumhunt.

Define 'a lot' of fluffy posts, please. What number would be scummy and therefore worthy of being used as a reason to lynch me?

Wall-E moved his vote around erratically

.

As I do in every game.

Wall-E is frequently evasive.

As noted above, he voted frequently without giving reasons, and when pressed for reasons his given explanations rarely added up. He often just flat out ignores questions. Particularly egregious is post 368. This took ages for an explanation, and when it came it made no sense. He has just ignored further comments on this issue.

You don't like my reasoning on some things? That's what I'm reading here. The other part is that I'm being evasive. Not actively so, but I suppose I can't deny a fair amount of laziness in this game on my part. I've rarely gone very deeply into the discussions.

What, specifically, are these things you don't like my reasoning on?

I'm going to introduce you to the concept of anticipatory information. You know I'm going to ask the question, so please append it to your initial post.

Corndog will be our code-word for this concept for the duration of this topic.

Post 462: Unvote - After claiming the game is over and fabricating a spurious case on me, he abruptly withdraws his vote.

Spurious? Please back this claim with some evidence or argument. I feel my actions there were fully justified.

Wall-E's "misunderstanding" about the game set-up looks insincere

. It would make no sense at all to have night kills in this set-up, the game would be won or lost on day 1. I find it hard to believe he could make this mistake. At the time I accepted it, thinking to myself that his not knowing how the scum operate is a pretty strong town tell. Now, I think this tell was fabricated. It seems implausible to me that he could actually misunderstand the game the way he did, so it was faked. Only scum would have reason to fake that.

The only possible refutation I can give to this statement is to say that it was not fabricated, I truly have never played a nightless mafia game before this one, and the conceptual mechanics of the setup had eluded some of the finer points of my reasoning.

Early on he was pinging his vote about between Tenchi and Zwet/Archon.

These three are problem players for me because they are active but seemingly always mildly scummy. Hence my fascination with attempting to discern their alignments. Did it interrupt something momentously awesome you were contemplating undertaking?

When Archon claimed, he voted for him. He then voted Tenchi for pushing a case on Archon (when Wall-E himself had just been voting Archon!). Then he votes Archon and fakeclaims without reasoning to "fish for reactions". He never explains what reactions he was looking for, or found. I'm not sure what reaction he expected other than "WTF are you voting for someone you said was town, without giving reasons?".

After this he unvotes (apparently bored of trying to make something stick to either of those two) and votes me, claiming the game is over. He doesn't explain this at all, but eventually posts a PBPA that is totally unconvincing. Once that's dismissed he retracts his vote. His eventual explanation for his vote was that he found speculating about pairings to be a scumtell, but now realized this was wrong. That makes no sense. Why would he declare "the game is over" if he found a mild scumtell? This is still unexplained, and he just ignores requests for explanation.

In my opinion, if you want me lynched, this could be the angle to push. I have arguably been pretty evasive, though I assure you it's due to limited time and nothing to do with intentionally being evasive. I understand that you cannot tell the difference, and if there is a thing you want me to talk about, put it in a post like this:

WALL-E: WHY DID YOU VOTE FOR ME HERE?!

and I will do my best to appease you.

He seems to like starting new conversations, rather than actually drawing any firm conclusions or giving clear reasoning. For example, when I asked for specific explanation of post 368, he decided to make a PBPA analysis on me instead. He was probably hoping to change the subject and distract from having to explain. There's also this "NOT claim" circle thing we did which was his idea. The idea was unexplained, nobody but him knows what we're going to get out of it, and all he's done with the finished data so far is ask me to re-iterate my NOT-claim. Prediction: Nothing much will come of this NOT-claim thing and Wall-E will try to change the subject again.

More on this later.

The Wall-E/Looker claim business.

Reading this with fresh eyes, this could have been staged to make us conclude that they are not lovers. When I first saw this exchange, all I drew from it was that Looker and Wall-E could not be lovers. But what I didn't notice was that if they were scum together, the could each have another player to claim as a lover, while taking advantage of this large distancing effort of making clear they are not going to claim one another as lovers.

That was the moment I discovered how brilliant it would be for us all to not-claim.

First of all, some people would be nervous even to talk about it. These would be people lurking to hope the idea goes away because they do not want to be the one to lose for their team by breaking their team's strategy apart. Some would be flat-out against it.

I considered mikek mostly scummy for being against it but not stating WHY he was.

He wouldn't point out downsides for NOT-claiming despite all the negativity.

Corndogs.

Post 368

. Talked about this above, but I think it bears repeating: Wall-E has refused to explain this post, and given a false explanation for it.

Bullshit PBPA

to distract from post 368. Reading the PBPA it was obvious to me that he had not noticed any of these things and drawn a conclusion from them, he had started with a conclusion he wanted to find evidence for and gone scraping for it. In the end it was so weak and easily refuted I'm surprised he bothered posting it. Surprised that is until I realised it was actually made to distract from his inexplicable post 368 and make it look as though he had his reasons.

You rather remind me of a very stern person who has purchased a corndog and realized that it is stale.

Rather than talk about how awful the corndog was, all he can do is say, "I hated it! Absolutely hated it!" and will not say what was wrong with the corndog.

What I'm asking is this: Rather than you say, "It's nasty! So awful! I can't eat a bite!" I want you to say "You burned the corndog and used old hotdog oil and also this is a rat whisker here."

How did I burn this corndog? What about my case against you is flimsy, weak or otherwise unworthy of consideration? Worse! Worthy of my deconsideration, if you will. You say it, but do you MEAN it? If you meant it, I'd expect to see more... depth to your thoughts.

More Corndog. Anticipate that I and everyone else will be assuming the worst from everything you say and fill in some blanks for me to work with. I like Cumbaya as much as the next bloke, but we've got a game to play mister!

Inconsistency over claiming

. He said he found it very suspicious that I was "pushing for massclaim". I was never pushing for a massclaim until later in the game, when it would help town most. He also said he thinks Archon very likely town, and Archon was more in favour of massclaim, and earlier, than me! Inconsistent. He's also now had us do a NOT-claim each. If a full claim:

will give the scum a ton of information. It will give us zero, but lock the scum into their claims, which they undoubtedly have already set-up.

... then how can it be that a partial claim will help? If a full claim gives ZERO information to us, a partial claim has to give even less. I think Wall-E has two reasons for asking us to do this: to distract us and to change the subject, and also to get scum enough information to deduce the lover pairs, without telling us too much of use.

Again. What would you rather talk about/do instead of listen to me post? What was I distracting from? I need you to believe what you say and convey such with your language. If you really do believe I was distracting from something, what was it?

Finally, what I saw as a fairly big

scum slip

he made while trying to fabricate a PBPA on me:

Despite all the scummy things I've done - voting with no justification, declaring one claimed lover scum and his partner town, throwing an accusation on mikek with no real explaination - he fails to even basically scumhunt by directly addressing me with a single question.

Unprovoked description of your own play as scummy is hella scummy

It was provoked by you potentially being the mafia.

I noticed you were hesitant toward the not-claim and even mildly vulgar during the time it became clear that others would be playing along. I hypothesize that scum would be jumpy like that, afraid of not-claiming incorrectly and revealing themselves in some unknown way. Like someone who is watching a terrible train crash and is unable to stop it, but stays and yells loudly out of concern. You were concerned that the one lynch we needed would be you because of something you'd said or done earlier in the thread.

The problem is that I have already claimed that I distanced from my partner in the beginning of day 1, thereby destroying this notion that there will be no such behavior from anyone. I have nothing to show you that will tell you that I'm definitely not the mafia, but I DO now have nearly ... 20 pages of information to read and think about. Did you want to add something useful to that?

Get more corndogs.

[Wall-E]

The analysis I have for the entire claim:

mikek looked nervous about the not-claim
zwets also looked somewhat sour on the idea

I noticed some other people gained small bits of information from it. I hope it helps in the long run. I'm not telling what else I may have learned from it.

unvote: Vote: Jazzmyn

because of when you not-claimed.

[Wall-E]

I'm ready to claim my lover if you want his word to weigh against this wagon at all, scum.

Jazzmyn to help along his participation.

Nothing else to add for the moment.

The word Corndog in my post was meant to draw attention to and illustrate a point using a metaphor. Did you read the part where I explained how mikek was like a man who ate a poor corndog?

What do you think of that analogy, ortolan?

[Wall-E]

I do not know how to 'read' zwets.

[Wall-E]

The reason for my rapid defensive posting is the speed with which this wagon gained members. If scum see this and want to push it, they can mislynch, the first of only two that they need.

[Wall-E]

If scum see this and want to push it, they can mislynch, the first of only two that they need.

This is not a post coming from a town-aligned player.

Explain why not.

[Wall-E]

If scum see this and want to push it, they can mislynch, the first of only two that they need.

This is not a post coming from a town-aligned player.

Explain why not.

Corndog: Can you not forsee scum quicklynching out of desperation in this game? Assuming I'm town (stretch it) would scum jump on this wagon? I'm giving those voting for me the benefit of the doubt, since they probably dislike my style? I don't know, not many reasons have been forthcoming, but I have faith in the majority's sense of the order of such things.

[Wall-E]

Archon, what do you think of mikek's case on Wall-E and Wall-E's corndog reply? What about the current events on this page?

No. you first.

"No." is not a logical response to a request for opinion. You can say, "I'd rather deign not to reply," but then I'd ask you, "why not?" and we'd go round and round...

Why not just give Tenchi the information he requested?

[Wall-E]

No, please respond. You see, I happen to know that zeeNON is lying outright and should be aware of this fact. For some reason, he's distancing (?) for real dude it's rather late in the game?

[Wall-E]

/in for the redo

[Wall-E]

I've decided to post like this for the entire redo.

[Wall-E]

Let me ask you this: Did the not-claim make the scum nervous at all?

[Wall-E]

For the good of the Human Race, I will do it.

[Wall-E]

Wall-E, when you said "this game is over, mikek just lost for the scumteam" did you actually see anything or was that just a ploy to get me to overreact or what?

THAT I will NEVER tell.

[Wall-E]

[Wall-E]

best. post-game discussion. EVER.

[Wall-E]

oh gods alive this is going to be hard