Open 142: True Love (Game Over) before 784

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Vote: Sonicchaos

Numbers in name suggests a sixteen year old and I hate teenagers.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I disagree with Korts and Percy's contention that Kmd's vote didn't supply us with information, it let us know that Kmd is playing to his meta. This may or may not be useful information, but it's not significantly more or less information than any other random vote would.

Furthermore Percy is wrong because Penn is both larger and louder than Teller making him significantly more awesome.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I disagree with Korts and Percy's contention that Kmd's vote didn't supply us with information, it let us know that Kmd is playing to his meta. This may or may not be useful information, but it's not significantly more or less information than any other random vote would.

I very much doubt that it will be useful information, which is my point - the "always vote Zazier" is not a useful pro-town meta to have established.

While I agree that it's not terribly helpful; provided it is a consistent behavior it isn't really an actionable item. Voting and/or lynching anti-town behavior instead of scummy behavior might improve overall site meta but it's also a recipe for losing plenty of games in the process.

Quite a lot has happened when I was sleeping and taking my exams. I'm going to read through; it's lunch break now.

Exaggeration thy name is kirroha.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Korts is just jealous

But that means that battle of the lovers has already started, while I wasn't even here ! Did DDD already join the fun?

Hey baby, how are you doing?

~~~

Anyways, sonicchaos in post 29 posts obvious and useless information, "so if somebody is found scum, then their lover cannot be sucm also." But the only way we get confirmed scum is by lynching them at which point their lover suicides so we'd know alignment even if the mod hadn't provided that information. Furthermore, there's the issue of his not so random "random" vote in that post. Several early things not to like.

Kirroha also seems happy to post obvious things, but without the content to back it up. Her post 49 is basically just providing all the possible scum pairings without even attempting any preliminary analysis. Again, it looks busy, but it isn't really helpful to the town.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

unvote, vote: kirroha

bandwagon gogogo

Ok.

Unvote

Vote: kirroha

Earlier posts had little to no content, posts with content have content that appears to my eye to basically be generally incorrect.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Earlier posts had little to no content, posts with content have content that appears to my eye to basically be generally incorrect.

wishy washy wagon jumpy

Wishy washy? Not at all.

Wagon jumpy? I think I made it obvious that's exactly what I was doing.

Anyway, why did you only vote for me after I listed you out as a possible scumbuddy of Korts'? That's filled with OMGUS, too.

Mmhhmm, I voted the first time I came into this thread after your posts with content and Kort's vote on you. It's not in fact possible to vote for someone if the reasons for your vote haven't actually happened yet, so that would be why I didn't vote you in this nebulous before you suggest I should have.

And about 'generally incorrect'... if you really want to say about how they're 'incorrect', can you list out HOW they're incorrect? Or you're just trying to convince the all the townies to vote for me?

Well I was purposefully being vague and bandwagoning to see what reactions it would garner, unfortunately no one reacted to it at all. And your last sentence almost seems like you're disassociating yourself from the town. Instead of "the rest" or "the other" townies, it's "all the" townies which seems to imply that you're not one of us. Not that I put much stock in such slips, but it's just another point against you.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Wishy washy? Not at all.

Wagon jumpy? I think I made it obvious that's exactly what I was doing.

And I thought wagon jumping was a scumtell?

You answered this yourself with your question to Korts. "I thought hopping on a wago,

without a reason

, was a scumtell." Since I had a reason; not a scumtell by your own assumed logic. Even when done without a reason, it also depends on who does it because it's part of some people's meta whether town or scum.

Well I was purposefully being vague and bandwagoning to see what reactions it would garner, unfortunately no one reacted to it at all.

Oh... does that mean your vote on me was just put to see if the scum will come and wagon me as well?

That was amongst many possibilities of things that could've happened, yes.

And your last sentence almost seems like you're disassociating yourself from the town. Instead of "the rest" or "the other" townies, it's "all the" townies which seems to imply that you're not one of us. Not that I put much stock in such slips, but it's just another point against you.

That I can explain. In

Newbie 754

, my first game - I was a Townie, and in one post I said "the other townies". However, they misinterpreted that to be that I knew the people I suspected were also townies, so they put that as a point against me, exaggerated it and got me lynched. I didn't want that to happen again, so I guess I'll admit it - it's because of that that I didn't use "the other" townies again. I don't want to be mislynched again because of a simple mistake.

Hence why I don't put much stock in such "mistakes"; but it's better to note such things when I see them in case they are relevant instead of ignoring them.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

But anyway, I've got good news
DDD has told me he's not scum. Which means we only have to check the three other pairs to win. This should be easy

But I thought you can't just trust your partner that easily? Mitey has also told me she isn't scum, but I still get slightly suspicious even though I'm trying very hard to trust her. I believe that we need to trust our partners in order to be able to catch the scum, since they are the only people we can privately talk with, but no matter how hard I try I'm still getting suspicious signals from Mitey. Why don't you have that problem?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

This is a good thing, replace an unknown with a player that I've good a real good read on.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

FoS: DDD.

Lurking is anti-town. I have no idea why you would post how chummy and well versed in some player's meta you are, without commenting on the game itself, especially when questions have been posed to you. Your wagon-jump left a sour taste in my mouth as well; I thought "he's probably just applying pressure", but I'm less satisfied with this pro-town explanation now.

Percy, I'm clearly not lurking, the last time I posted was a touch over twenty four hours ago. The only person who posted any content since that time was you. So I'm basically the last person you can accurately call out for lurking, yet that's the reason you call me out. Interesting.

To answer your question though, kirroha hasn't helped herself at all, really. Amongst other things she "confirms" her vote on Korts and then in her next post she voices her uncertainty of her own position. It looks to my eye as if she's trying to rally support to her position by projecting strength while simultaneously distancing herself from the mislynch.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

EBWOP: from the potential mislynch.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD: Would you think that Kirroha's vote/confirm vote while doubting it is more of a way to signal to the scumbuddy that it's not as serious or that it's a breadcrumb if votes start to pile on Korts (for any particular reason) and therefore gives her something to point to if she doesn't want to lose a scumpartner and unvotes later on?

I don't believe it's any sort of signal to a scum partner since they can daytalk so there's no need to drop signals that the town might pick up on when they could just go to PM/QT and let their partner know exactly what they're planning.

But it's another possiblty that it's a setup to remove the vote later if she thinks that there's too much pressure on a scumbuddy. It's just odd behavior for a player project such confidence in their action, then immediately trying to remove their culpability from the situation.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I mean to say you've been vague, which is as bad as lurking in my mind (and perhaps more dangerous). You jumped on the kirroha wagon for vague reasons (deliberately, apparently) or ones that had already been said that you heavily paraphrased; the one original reason you did pick out was rather silly.

You need to work on your time sequence, I voted kirroha for vague reasons, intentionally. The "heavily paraphrased" and "silly" were part of point/counterpoint after the vote had already been placed and were not reasons for placing or even sustaining my vote.

I didn't like your post before your last one, because it didn't engage with the game in any meaningful way.

It acknowledged a new player in the game and let the town know that I have experience with him as a player. A smoking gun? No, but it supplies more information to the town than, “Welcome, Amished!”.

EBWOP: from the potential mislynch.

Do you think that this statement of yours is more or less scummy than kirroha's:

Or you're just trying to convince the all the townies to vote for me?

?

Since I know my alignment, I know my comment was just a simple mistake. Since I do not know kirroha's alignment I do not know if hers was a mistake or a tell or some sort. But again in 86 I said, "Not that I put much stock in such slips" because it's possible for anyone to make a dumb mistake unindicative of alignment.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Kirroha ISO #7 is of course her most interesting post. Prior to that she was trying to look busy without giving any feedback on the actual progress of the game which is suspicious in and of itself, players should be engaged with the game, not listing the possible scum pairs to no great benefit.

So let’s look at ISO #7…

First her reaction to her partner is suspicious. Scum doesn’t want their partner lynched; townies should have no problem with it if their partner is scum. Furthermore, kirroha drops minor suspicion on her partner (to give the appearance of actually considering her partner as scum), but then immediately writes it off due to potential bias. So she’s not ignored her partner, done her due diligence in evaluating them as scum, and then dismissed them. It’s a terribly convenient way for scum to look good and avoid putting their partner in the limelight where they might cost them the game.

Her tendency to lay out every option in the Korts case isn’t pretty either. What purpose does it serve? It can just as easily be done in your head, or on scratch paper, or in word privately and only her conclusions shared with us. It doesn’t help us to bog us down with arguments that are just going to be tossed out. So it’s mostly for show, a pro-town player doesn’t need to look like they’re going through the motions, scum does.

Her evaluation of sonicchaos (SC) is bizarre and completely opposite of my read. Her pro-town read on him is entirely based on him “breaking up the fight between korts and kmd” which simply didn’t happen. I mean look at the post she quoted, SC posts a single line pointlessly summing up the korts/kmd situation, there’s no fight breaking up there he’s offering a passing thought before he posts pointless (and incorrect) setup garbage. And her argument that scum wouldn’t correct the mod on proper vote count is completely bogus as well as someone else also noted.

Later on there’s the anti-town behavior that I noted with her confirm of her vote followed by her very next post which backpedals from that confidence to try and distance herself from the vote that she was just so sure of. All in all, there’s plenty of anti-town behavior from kirroha to justify placing and sustaining a vote.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

If there's no significant postings in the near future I will put Percy at L-1 because while I feel kirroha is most likely to be scum, I think Percy is a solid option as well at this point.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Where'd DDD go? >_>

Work and then was out and about for most of the last two days.

Percy's arguments about me are junk. I made clear the original reason for my vote clear in a back and forth with kirroha. And my reasons for sustaining my vote might not have been original (though I'm pretty sure I originated some of them), but that doesn't mean they aren't valid. In fact considering Amished generally agreed with my post and no one has said, "Gee Danny I really think you're grabbing at straws there" means that my arguments aren't invalid.

However, I think Percy/kirroha simply doesn't make much sense. Kirroha's reaction is so blatant and extreme and I just can't see that making sense from a scum perspective.

As for the QT question, ZazieR and I haven't used it basically at all. I disagree with Amished's logic however. If I have any questions or thoughts that are relevant they should be looked at by everyone. It's not that I (I can't speak for ZazieR on this matter) have something to hide, but that I think it's better for the town if everything is done out in the light of day where everyone can see and evaluate it.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD: But Kirroha's reaction towards Percy also doesn't make much sense from a townie perspective. There's no way to be that certain about another player's alignment, and then to be that adamant about somebody's alignment that you don't know doesn't make any sense to me either.

It could be town-kirroha's overly emotional version of the same thing I did in the last game we were in together and we were both townies in that game (in which case it doesn't speak to Percy's alignment). And it could be scum kirroha putting serious WIFOM into the situation figuring she either looks right if town-Percy gets lynched or if she gets lynched then town Percy is the "obvious" (mis-)lynch and at least she gets her partner into LYLO. I think that it's just too insanely risky for a scum/scum pair to do that.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

You weren't that emotional though in that game DDD, and I never said anything quite so outrageous.

If you had to pick one situation for them what would it be? Kirr-scum/Percy-town, Kirr-town/Percy-scum/both town?

Sure, but not everyone is the robot I am and since I don't have past experience with Kirroha I don't know if such tone is the status quo or a tell of some kind.

Kirr-scum/Percy-town looks most correct to me. Everything about Kirroha, including the overly emotional post screams scum, since I have a hard time seeing that action in the light of scum/scum that suggests to me that Percy is less likely to be scum (at least in conjunction with kirroha). If I was ranking potential kirroha partner's they'd go...

1) kmd, 2) ZazieR, 3) Percy, 4) Amished 5) Korts

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I made clear the original reason for my vote clear in a back and forth with kirroha.

Oh, you did? Care to quote it for me?

Well I was purposefully being vague and bandwagoning to see what reactions it would garner, unfortunately no one reacted to it at all.

Oh... does that mean your vote on me was just put to see if the scum will come and wagon me as well?

That was amongst many possibilities of things that could've happened, yes.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

However, I think Percy/kirroha simply doesn't make much sense. Kirroha's reaction is so blatant and extreme and I just can't see that making sense from a scum perspective.

Too scummy to be scum is a terrible argument. This comes close to that. Being "so blatant" is not a towntell.

Agreed, which is why I still believe kirroha to be scum. But when making connections it makes more sense to me and seems likelier that it's a WIFOM trap instead of obvious buddying.

I made clear the original reason for my vote clear in a back and forth with kirroha.

You said that "seeing if scum would jump on the wagon" was one of "many" reasons. This is not clear, by any stretch of the imagination.

No, I voted kirroha to see what the reactions would be. That's a single reason and a fairly clear one. However, there are a full spectrum of possible reactions, scum jumping on a wagon being just one of many reactions. I then kept my vote on her for reasons listed in my ISO #13.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Also I seem to be getting bad vibes from my partner mostly because he trys to counter a arguement using Wifom. News flash: Any argument that your not 100 percent sure of can be reduced to Wifom. Including all of your buddying talks. Including your likely partner chats. Yet you use this as the basis of your arguments? Why?

Is the "argument" the post above where I responded to kmd?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD- 106 156 172 are the post numbers where I concluded that off of.

I think you mean 104 since 106 is a Korts post.

Anyways, I'm just not understanding your criticism. As Amished and I have discussed there are three logical explanations for Kirroha's overly emotional plea to not lynch Percy. Town kirroha defending someone she truly believes is a townie, scum kirroha defending a partner, or scum kirroha defending a townie to try and look both right and misdirect the town. I happen to believe the third explanation fits best, but people in could hold the first or second position in good faith. Frankly, I'm not sure why my position on this bothers you.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Because, DDD, your using WIFOM as the basis for your attacks and your defense. Thats hypocritical at best and scummy at worst.

Does anyone agree with this guy and can subsequently explain what he's driving at? Because I'm not seeing his point at all.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I don't like Amished's last couple of posts. I'm not sure how he gets any read on MiteyMouse, let alone a pro-town read. As Korts mentioned I think there's too many exceptions and twists in his statements regarding Percy/KMD. And I find his comment about me being AWOL junk, my last post was yesterday and while there was a time gap between posts it's basically the same gap as last weekend when he said the exact same thing. Maybe it's too much to expect him to pick up on a trend like that, but it's still a little disappointing.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Look I posted on Day 2! And I hope youse guys are right about this.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm pretty well convinced that Amished has to be scum right now because of how terrible his arguments are against me since he's a better player than that.

First he tries to use playstyle against me (verbosity), except he himself admits he has no experience with my scum game which gives him no control group which makes his equation invalid.

He tries to link kirroha and I together and goes so far as to suggest I was defending her when I vote her in my fourth post, never unvoted and pushed her as the lynch for the entire day except for one post when the game slowed down and for some reason it seemed like the kirroha wagon had no support.

I call her busy, but not helpful to the town in post 3, vote her in post 4, I give reasons to sustain my vote in 9, I build a full case in 13 and say, "All in all, there’s plenty of anti-town behavior from kirroha to justify placing and sustaining a vote." In 17 after kirroha's "don't lynch Percy" meltdown I post, "Kirr-scum/Percy-town looks most correct to me. Everything about Kirroha, including the overly emotional post screams scum, since I have a hard time seeing that action in the light of scum/scum that suggests to me that Percy is less likely to be scum (at least in conjunction with kirroha)."

Furthermore, Amished says,

Finally in 23, he realizes that he won't have a target in D3 when Percy mislynches"

Except at that point I had completely backed away from Percy as scum, in fact in 17 I said...

If I was ranking potential kirroha partner's they'd go...

1) kmd, 2) ZazieR, 3) Percy, 4) Amished 5) Korts

So maybe you felt the follow-up lynch of Percy was inevitable, but in my posts I argued against that very thing and got grief from Sajin and KMD from 19-21. So my disagreement with the lynch of Percy/Korts was nothing new and if you had given me a chance I would've argued against it on D2, sadly I was denied that chance by your (collective) speed lynch. I'll give Amished his own ISO read later, but town Amished plays mafia in reality, while scum Amished has to make up terrible arguments like the above.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm pretty well convinced that Amished has to be scum right now because of how terrible his arguments are against me since he's a better player than that.

You're placing a burden of proficiency on me. I have 4 completed games, and you've only seen me in two that are still ongoing. Of the two you've seen me in, I've been NK'd N1 both times, and therefore have only seen me in a very limited role regarding knowledge of NK's, links, anything like that. I've even mentioned in our QT that this is the first game where I've been able to find scum successfully.

Except I was following along in the still active newbie game where you replaced in as scum, I have both halves of your equation.

First he tries to use playstyle against me (verbosity), except he himself admits he has no experience with my scum game which gives him no control group which makes his equation invalid.

I have two games of yours where you were town. In a game of *only* town and mafia, you not being in your town meta = you being mafia.

False, let's late it out in a nice little syllogism. You claim A is a fact, however you discount B because you've never played with me as scum. In which case I'm simply breaking with the playstyle you've seen before which in no way indicates alignment.

A) Verbosity = Town
B) Verbosity = Town or Scum

Going through again, you still weren't attacking her all game. Posts 6-8, 10-12, 14-16, 18, 20-23 (all of which were while Kirroha was alive) have nothing in them where you were attacking her. 14 out of 19 (going from 4 where evidently your vote was serious) are you *not* attacking her.

So, you're resorting to hyper-literalism to try and be correct, not much of a case if so. No, I did not attack kirroha in every post, I "only" voted for her, built a case on her, never unvoted her, and pushed her as the best choice of lynch on D1 with a single minor exception. Somehow this doesn't seem to mesh with your theory that I was defending her.

The you putting Percy at L-1 was in 16. Being that close to voting for somebody, then putting them way down on your list not 11 minutes later (post 154-156) after I told you that your explanation wouldn't fly with me (making it clear that I wouldn't unvote Kirroha for your reason) is highly suspicious.

Cool, either you're not paying attention in your desperation or out and out lying. The threat to put Percy at L-1 was post

14

, several days before, the time sequence your theory relies on doesn't exist. And why would I be motivated to do anything based on you "not unvoting kirroha" when you didn't vote her till your post #24 right before deadline, scum? Your arguments here are based on things that you're creating from thin air.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, why did you see me as the most likely to be Kirroha's partner? And why are you now pushing Amishedscum over Kmdscum? You originally had Zazie as second most likely. Why aren't you looking at Sajin now?

Because you were tunneling on a player that I had just identified as likely town and while your buddy-buddy stuff with ZazieR might be par for the course for you, it still made my uncomfortable that one of you was buddying with the other.

Why don't I take a look at Sajin? Mostly because Amished has resorted to simply making things up now to push my lynch. As it stands I'm unimpressed by my partner, he came into the game and attacked me for a poor reason, but in retrospect ZazieR pushed on kirroha pretty hard and I don't see such blatant bussing as likely at that point.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Why has DDD suddenly become more verbose?

You want an answer for that or is that just rhetorical musing?

Anyways,

Vote: Amished

So kmd can do the right thing if he feels so inclined and I'm not around for a while to finish things off.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I did not make up things at all. You attacked someone using WIFOM and you dismissed something using WIFOM in posts right next to each other. How is that confusing?

Because, DDD, your using WIFOM as the basis for your attacks and your defense. Thats hypocritical at best and scummy at worst.

Does anyone agree with this guy and can subsequently explain what he's driving at? Because I'm not seeing his point at all.

*crickets*

Simply, either no one understood or agreed with your argument. I "used WIFOM" to explain the kirroha/Percy situation, guess what, I was right, the non-WIFOM answer was wrong. I still fail to see how applying a little rationality to the situation and examining things beyond their most basic perspective is scummy.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

So kmd can do the right thing if he feels so inclined and I'm not around for a while to finish things off.

I actually think you are more likely scum.



I don't want to hammer on a lynch I don't necessarily agree with...

Sure, but with the setup and votes going the way there are there's no threat of scum quick hammering so there's no reason for me not to vote my conviction, so I might as well put it out there as a valid option.

What do you think of the underlined section in 254, what possible town motivation could exist for Amished twisting the facts of the situation so egregiously.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

At DDD- Your not even making a case on our pairing. Do it or I vote you and yes I want more of a reason why its ok to disprove and prove something using the same logic.

Sent you a PM, but might as well ask the question here as well. What do you mean by case in this context?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Why am I scum? Thats what I mean.

I don't understand, why would I build a case on someone I don't believe is scum?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Then you don't deserve a win here as scum or town. You have never suspected me in the least the entire thread. You answered my questions with questions so you did not have to commit.

KMD I await your opinion on this.

And you never answered my question. Probably because there isn't a good answer. Why should I fake interest in one player who the evidence leads me to believe is town and there's another player I believe to be scum?

Won't be around tomorrow during the day, full case on Amished to be written up but probably not till well after midnight.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

He didn't even try, shrug.

Seriously, go fuck yourself in the ear with a flathead screwdriver.™ I was right on Day 1, I was right about Day 2, I didn't have the right person on Day 3, but I had the right pairing. Don't blame me for the fact that you don't have the mental capacity to look past the most basic fucking explanation for anything in the game.