Open 142: True Love (Game Over) before 784

[Kmd4390]

Vote ZazieR

obviously.

Mitey, why no vote?

[Kmd4390]

Vote: Sonicchaos

Numbers in name suggests a sixteen year old and I hate teenagers.

Lover Pairings

sonicchaos1993/Kmd4390

Jail bait?

[Kmd4390]

Vote ZazieR

obviously.

Mitey, why no vote?

vote: Kmd

Schtick votes are not constructive.

Schtick votes?

[Kmd4390]

I vote her in every game, yes.

I was asking what a schtick vote meant more than anything. You just answered that though.

Anyway, what's wrong with it? Will you have a problem with her voting me when she comes online tomorrow too? Do you see it as a scumtell or just not productive?

[Kmd4390]

DDD, I'm actually 15, and I don't really act like a teenager.

Game-related...
Typical 1st day situation. Not much info. Vote: DDD because

I hate people who use stereotypes.

[Kmd4390]

To clarify:

You just grouped together all people who use stereotypes.

[Kmd4390]

Why is it a scumtell if it's done in every game?

[Kmd4390]

I don't see it as anti-town.

[Kmd4390]

My random votes are always on players who I've enjoyed games with, even when Zaz isn't in the game. It shouldn't be treated differently than any other game.

Also, I tend to be the one to start discussion in most games based on a small catch I make. I'm not generally a non-contributor in any way.

[Kmd4390]

I know what you are saying. I am disagreeing.

[Kmd4390]

Percy, why DDD?

[Kmd4390]

Because Teller is more awesome than Penn.

Kmd, why didn't you address the rest of my post?

I don't see anything more I need to say about it.

Why jokevote when you have real stuff to base a vote on?

[Kmd4390]

Did you even read my post?

I think the RVS is a good way to start conversations. Anyone who thinks that they have anything more than the weakest read on someone at this point is playing with information that the town just doesn't have. The RVS sees people getting votes for reasons they can't fathom, and this leads to panic and irrational play, scum's desire to focus on particular players and so forth, from which we deduce scumtells.

Given enough time we can start to build sensible cases, rather than getting out of the RVS with the first knee-jerk case that crops up, leaving most of the playerbase completely ignored

.

Yeah, I read it. But aren't "knee-jerk" cases the thing that leads to "sensible cases"? Also, isn't a knee-jerk vote better than random voting?

How about I quote the other part that you've ignored twice now:

I believe this situation can be (mostly) resolved when Kmd votes for someone else; or, he could stubbornly cling to his vote on Zazier, and if he decides to do so, I'd like to hear more detailed reasons as to why this will produce good info for the town.

I didn't ignore it. I'll put my vote where I want to put it. My vote will give info when I feel there is info to give. Right now, I don't have suspicions yet. You and Korts both seem pretty townie and no one else has done much.

Will that work?

I actually like this idea.

2. I don't want to die day 1.

If you are town, you should look just as closely at me as you look at anyone else. If you are scum, you want to keep me alive whatever it takes. This kind of looks like the second..

This is an interesting idea. It might just be me but, perhaps we need to just list the Scummiest people and see how they fall into the pairings. I just think it might be hard to rank a pair of people. That being said, ranking the pair might get us more info.

Since our pairings are public, we also have to worry about the Scum trying to possible save Townies or bus Townies. We may have to look at this in pairs as opposed to individuals...I'm not used to this set up.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY DDD!

So... You said:
Interesting idea.
but need to list scummiest people and see how they fall into pairings.
ranking pairs gets more info.
not used to this setup.

Did you even take a stance there or just post a lot of nothing to look active?

Unvote, Vote Mitey

Scummiest thing in the early parts of this game.

[Kmd4390]

This is actually the first game where my vote on Zazie has been called anti-town.

But anyway.

Kmd: do you actually think that Percy's post, taking a middle of the road stance on every issue that was brought up, would be a reasonable basis for any non-joke post?

I thought there was enough information that he covered that he could have voted. He could have voted me for an "anti-town" vote. He could have voted you for your reaction to it. He could have voted Sonic for voting you. He could have voted someone for lurking. Sure, non of these are reasons to lynch. But all four of these votes would have brought up some discussion and some debate. Random voting when he did really didn't.

And on a second read, I see a lot of IIOA in that post of Percy's that you mentioned. It looks like he's just recapping the game and not really adding anything to it.

[Kmd4390]

Kirroha, who specifically do you find suspicious right now and why?

[Kmd4390]

Um, actually... Has ZazieR posted even once yet? I can't find any posts of

hers

.

She's V/LA for a day or two. She isn't posting on MS at all for most of yesterday and all of today so far.

[Kmd4390]

Vote Kmd

OMG SCHTICK VOTE

[Kmd4390]

Also, the mod doesn't require unvotes. Your vote is on me.

[Kmd4390]

Schtick vote?

Korts attacked my vote on you because I do it in every game which gives no info.

[Kmd4390]

Can a "knee-jerk" case lead to a sensible case? Yes.
Can a "knee-jerk" case lead to a horrible case? Also yes.
I prefer for there to be some more information out there before we start attacking people for silly things. The RVS is a great way to provide this information. As I stated, the scum hate the RVS, as it's much harder to manipulate than stupid cases, especially those made by or against bad players.

The possibility of a case being horrible is NOT a reason not to pursue cases.

The sooner a game is out of the RVS, the better.

My vote will give info when I feel there is info to give.

What the hell does this even mean? Are you saying that you won't participate in the RVS? If so, why vote at all? Or are you saying that you agree with my position, except you've just got a placeholder vote?

I made my vote in the RVS. I meant when something serious came up, I'd place a real vote instead of just my jokevote.

BTW note that Percy's post took a middle of the road stance on every issue that was brought up. On the fence is a good spot for scum to be enjoying the view from.

Sorry Korts, but this is crap. I didn't take a strong view on any issue, because I don't have enough information to take a strong view (which includes my lack of serious voting). Instead, I asked questions and stated my opinion. The fact that I didn't charge out of the gate and agree with one of you 100% on page 2 doesn't even come close to a scumtell.

I didn't see opinions. I saw IIOA.

And on a second read, I see a lot of IIOA in that post of Percy's that you mentioned. It looks like he's just recapping the game and not really adding anything to it.

Nice try. I actually take time to analyse both your position and Korts' vote, as well as calling out sonicchaos on his non-random "random" vote. Calling it IIoA is ridiculous.

You state what happened. You don't take any kind of stance. It's textbook IIOA.

@Kmd: What is your opinion of ZazieR's play so far?

No read yet, but I respond as I read and I see that she has posted after this post. I'll answer your question at the end of my post.

3) Korts is scum, Kmd is town. From past experiences, I think that scum would like to create a huge wagon on a townie early in the game by exaggerating their movements to scummier than they already are, and in such a setup where every lynch is extremely crucial, I think this is a possibility worth considering.
4) Korts and Kmd are both scum. This is also likely, but very risky. Korts is making himself look rather scummy by doing this, and Kmd might be attracting unwanted attention to himself. Still, if it ended up working, it would be the perfect distancing tactic.

Thus, though I find possibility 3) and 4) quite likely, 1) is still the most likely for me, so I won't vote or FoS him. Still, IGMEOY, Korts, Kmd.

You say 3 and 4 are likely. Both have Korts as scum. Why no vote on him? Then you go on to say it is more likely that we are both town. Why is that? Why point out the others as likely if you don't believe them?

Kirroha, is Korts your scumbuddy?

@hohum: kirroah voted me.

Okay, Kirroha is spelt wrongly, but anyways...

He tells the mod about a mistake on his vote. If he were scum, there is absolutely no benefit in doing something like this, knowing that it most probably won't be noticed and would just increase his vote count by 1. He could always pretend not to see my vote, and still pass off as town. But he pointed out the vote. Either he is scum with a ridiculously high level of sportsmanship or town.

Actually, it's better to correct any mistakes regardless of alignment. Null tell.

2. I don't want to die day 1.

He's honest. I doubt scum would like to reveal the fact that they don't want to die.

Actually, why would town me so worried about dying. If your lover is scum, you have to die in order to win.

I find it interesting that you are so quick to clear Sonic.

Vote Percy

For meta reasons.

Care to elaborate? (Never mind. I see it in your next post)

To clarify: his post 30 is a good case of only information and not taking a stance. This was not the case in the games I've seen him as town (open 98 and twice in mafia 87). This however was the case in mini 751 (Suzumiya Haruhi Mafia modded by Tar).

Interesting.

Jail bait?

Well, you should actually think about something else
(HINT: our convo yesterday)

lol.


---------------------------------------------

Percy, I'm very sure Zaz is town. She is questioning like she normally does as town.


So, going Scum -> Town (scum on top), here is my current list:
Percy
kirroha
sonicchaos1993
MiteyMouse
Debonair Danny DiPietro
Korts
ZazieR
Kmd4390

-------------------------------

Percy seems to not want to take stances. I see that as a major scum tell normally, and with the meta provided by Zaz, it makes it even more damning.

Unvote, Vote Percy

Suspicious of Kirroha for that last post.

Sonic and Mitey for reasons mentioned previously, but less suspicious than both Percy and Kirroha.

DDD seems really under the radar. No read.

Korts is extremely protown. The only way I see him as scum is if Kirroha is his buddy. The way he isn't afraid to be suspicious of Percy and even seems to support looking at Percy looks really protown. Also, questioning my vote was a great discussion starter.

Zaz is obvtown because her meta matches her town play.

I'm town because my Role PM says so.

[Kmd4390]

No, it's not a reason to not pursue cases. It is a reason to take everything that everyone says with a grain of salt.

Discussion has to start somewhere. And it did. Korts blowing up my vote on Zaz started discussion here.

I made my vote in the RVS. I meant when something serious came up, I'd place a real vote instead of just my jokevote.

I think this was exactly Korts' original point. Your vote means nothing, you didn't want to achieve anything by it, so why vote at all? The only reason you would vote ZazieR is to have a 'placeholder' vote, knowing that it will achieve nothing. You're still insisting that it doesn't mean anything. Thus, I'm happy to upgrade my initial reservations about "not pro-town" to "anti-town" and

Unvote, Vote: Kmd4390

.

It's a joke vote. Of course it doesn't mean anything. So you are voting me this late over a joke vote? What happened to taking the early game with a grain of salt?

Oh and nice OMGUS btw. XD

I also find it interesting that Kmd was satisfied with kirroha's "pick someone who hasn't posted, say their name and then say nothing about the game" approach to his question.

I find it even more interesting that you ignored this comment of mine.

I asked her for a suspicion. She named a suspicion. I wasn't calling her scummy yet at that point. I had no problem with her answering my question.

You state what happened. You don't take any kind of stance. It's textbook IIOA.

Er, no it's not. I analysed the situation, and didn't take a strong stance because there wasn't one to take. IIoA is not fence-sitting scumtell, it's a "not intepreting what's happening in the game and stating your opinions about it" scumtell. I certainly interpreted what was going on, I just didn't express a

strong

opinion.

Actually, there WAS a stance to take. You pick one side or the other. That is taking a stance.

IIOA-Information instead of analysis. You gave information on the game. I guess you could argue that you analyzed by looking at possibilities, but you didn't pick a side. Maybe not IIOA exactly, but still scummy.

Percy, I'm very sure Zaz is town. She is questioning like she normally does as town.

Oh, I'm

very

happy with my vote on you. Why on earth are you defending ZazieR, given that she's not under threat at all,

and

using meta that cannot possibly tell us anything? Even if I concede that she's playing how she normally plays, she's a smart player and could easily fake her meta. This comment basically boils down to "trust me, she's town", and that's not unnecessary at this point, and also a crap argument. This is much worse than kirroha's buddying up to me.

You asked my opinion of Zaz. I said I'm very sure she's town. Now you are attacking me for answering your question. Am I supposed to lie and say she is scummy? Because she really isn't. I'm not giving specific meta because the second I do, her meta changes whether she is trying to change it or not. Awareness of one's own meta means it no longer exists (unless it's an intentional meta).

I agree that she is a smart player. But there still is a difference between her town and scum game. Maybe I'm not an expert at picking her out as scum, but I can sometimes pick her out as town, and she's playing how she does when I do.

You don't have to trust my reads. I was simply answering your question regarding my read on her.

Kind of humorous that my "crap argument" isn't even an argument I was making. I think we call that a strawman around here.

Percy seems to not want to take stances. I see that as a major scum tell normally, and with the meta provided by Zaz, it makes it even more damning.

Hilarious. Did you even read my other games? What exactly about my play in the other games makes you think I'm scummy? Come on, be specific.

According to Zaz, who I see as town, you don't take strong stances as scum, but you do as town. Now, of course, this meta becomes useless after this game because you are aware of it, but it's still there now.

Amished replaces sonicchaos1993

I guess I move pretty quickly, don't I?

Percy, I'm clearly not lurking, the last time I posted was a touch over twenty four hours ago. The only person who posted any content since that time was you. So I'm basically the last person you can accurately call out for lurking, yet that's the reason you call me out. Interesting.

Flat out lurking? No. You aren't. Active lurking? Maybe.

@KMD: You don't have to worry about jailbait anymore, you might end up with another avatar like your current one.... I don't even want to know the story.

I don't want to know the story either. That's why I didn't ask.

-----------------------------

Still like my vote on Percy. Would be willing to lynch him or Kirroha.

[Kmd4390]

Prodded. Will post tomorrow hopefully.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, I've been putting off walls-o-text for way too long.

Oi, Kmd--why so convinced that your town read of Zazie is correct?

I could be wrong, but I like to think that I've played enough games with her to be able to tell. And she looks how she usually does as town. (Thought I responded to this already, but it doesn't look that way.)

I made my vote in the RVS. I meant when something serious came up, I'd place a real vote instead of just my jokevote.

I think this was exactly Korts' original point. Your vote means nothing, you didn't want to achieve anything by it, so why vote at all? The only reason you would vote ZazieR is to have a 'placeholder' vote, knowing that it will achieve nothing. You're still insisting that it doesn't mean anything. Thus, I'm happy to upgrade my initial reservations about "not pro-town" to "anti-town" and

Unvote, Vote: Kmd4390.

It's a joke vote. Of course it doesn't mean anything. So you are voting me this late over a joke vote? What happened to taking the early game with a grain of salt?

Oh and nice OMGUS btw. XD

Again, this was Kort's original point. Your vote was a schtick vote - just a joke, used to appear participatory in the RVS rather than to gather information for the town. Your rationalisation for using this particular voting style have been extremely poor.

Oh, and stop using acronyms you don't understand XD.

I don't generally take info from the RVS. I take it from the small things that happen immediately after and everything that blows up from there. Does my early game playstyle that I use and consider effective in most of the games I play make me scum here? How the hell does that make sense?

Oh, and you're right. I've played +/-70 games and don't know OMGUS when I see it.

Actually, there WAS a stance to take. You pick one side or the other. That is taking a stance.

IIOA-Information instead of analysis. You gave information on the game. I guess you could argue that you analyzed by looking at possibilities, but you didn't pick a side. Maybe not IIOA exactly, but still scummy.

Oh, there we go. It's not IIoA! I'm sorry, but your position is ridiculous. I also didn't just 'look at the possibilities', but stated my opinion as well. What

you

wanted me to do was to say "I agree with Korts!" or "I agree with Kmd!", but I simply didn't. There wasn't enough evidence there to make me swing wholly to one way or the other. What exactly was scummy about what I did?

Ok, sure. You didn't agree with me that my vote didn't make me scum (what?) and you didn't agree with Korts that it was anti-town (seems you do now). Fair enough if I could see this from your more recent posts. I'll get back to that in a second though.

You set yourself up to go whichever way looked easier later. Scum love having options.

But anyway. Your stance at the time was that you couldn't pick a side, right? You simply didn't agree or disagree with either of us. The early game should be taken with a grain of salt. That was your stance.

But now you are voting me later in the game over this same issue. And this is after I have called you scum and Korts is your lover. If you are scum, you obviously won't want Korts lynched. And you don't want someone who is suspicious of you alive. So you go back to this old point that you took no stance on, and even said meant nothing. And you use it to vote me.

You asked my opinion of Zaz. I said I'm very sure she's town. Now you are attacking me for answering your question. Am I supposed to lie and say she is scummy? Because she really isn't. I'm not giving specific meta because the second I do, her meta changes whether she is trying to change it or not. Awareness of one's own meta means it no longer exists (unless it's an intentional meta).

I agree that she is a smart player. But there still is a difference between her town and scum game. Maybe I'm not an expert at picking her out as scum, but I can sometimes pick her out as town, and she's playing how she does when I do.

Firstly, I'm not attacking you for answering the question. I'm attacking you because your answer is crap.

Secondly, you suggest that the only alternative to saying "I'm very sure she's town" is "I think she's scummy", which it's not. It's a false dichotomy. My original attack was on your use of "very sure".

Finally, let me reiterate. You're saying that

sometimes

you can get a town read on ZazieR, in a way that you can't substantiate; that you're not an expert, but you're

very sure

she's town. Sorry, not buying it. Now I think your initial vote on her was a distancing measure, because now you seem to be going out of your way to defend another player who isn't under threat, and that's really weird.

So it's crap for my read on a player to be that I think she is town? Ok.

I'm pretty sure of it. What is wrong with that?

I'm going out of my way to defend her by saying I think she is town when a player asks me for my read on her? Interesting. Guess I should have ignored the question, right? That's pretty protown.

Kind of humorous that my "crap argument" isn't even an argument I was making. I think we call that a strawman around here.

You were saying that ZazieR is town, for meta reasons. That's an argument. I have not over-inflated your argument to more easily take it down (which is the strawman fallacy); I have argued that your conclusion does not follow from your premises.

Yeah, I said I thought she was town when you asked.

The strawman is this:
Percy: Kmd, what are your thoughts on Zazie?
Kmd: I think she is town.
Percy: You are defending her, buddying up to her, and saying "trust me, she is town". That's scummy.

Don't think you said that? I can quote it if you really want me to.

According to Zaz, who I see as town, you don't take strong stances as scum, but you do as town. Now, of course, this meta becomes useless after this game because you are aware of it, but it's still there now.

Oh, hilaire. You didn't even read the posts, you just trusted in almighty ZazieR! This is why I hate meta arguments - no-one bothers to check them. This was my second post in Suzumiya Haruhi Mafia, where I was scum up to my eyeballs. I'd call that taking a stance, wouldn't you?

Ok, you're right. You took a stance there and that was the same game she pointed to. Multiple scum groups change everything. I will not consider that game to point to any kind of meta for here.

To summarize my case against Kmd:
(1) His RVS vote was not pro-town. His explanations of his reasons for voting in such a manner have been weak.
(2) He has accused me of IIoA, OMGUS, strawmanning and "not taking a stance". All of these are demonstrably false.
(3) He himself has engaged in strawmanning, misrepresenting my arguments and establishing false dichotomies.
(4) He voted me for meta

that he hasn't even read

.
(5) His buddying up to ZazieR unnecessary, overblown and unwarranted.

1. So I'm scum for doing something I do regardless of alignment?
2. IIOA was the wrong term. The point was valid though. OMGUS and Strawmanning were valid. Not taking a stance was valid when I pointed it out.
3. LOL! Any backing for this? Or are you just trying to sound impressive?
4. I actually have a lot more reasons to vote you than "meta". I actually just dismissed that point.
5. Buddying by saying I thought she was town. This is getting kind of funny.

I wish I could vote you again. I would.

-------------------

Sorry guys, didn't get through much. Still like my Percy vote though. Will read the rest ASAP.

[Kmd4390]

So by that you mean if a person likes jumping on wagons in every game regardless of alignment, it is not a valid reason? Does that mean that we have to properly review the games that the people have played in before stating something?

Actually, it

does

help to have meta on players. For example, Zwet (who I'm sure you've seen on MS) loves to hammer players he may or may not find scummy regardless of alignment. Very annoying and unhelpful, but it's his meta.

The big thing that jumps out at me (and I know it has already been spoken about) is KMD defending Zazie.

as no reason to

yet he is. Now, this could be a few things...friends playing together and wanting to believe each other, a Scum buddying up with a Town or a Scum defending his partner. I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt for now but,

FOS KMD

Actually, the reason is that I was asked my read. My read is that she is town. She tends to ask questions as town where as scum she makes more definitive statements. I'm seeing more questioning and having fun, which she mostly does as town. (Yes, she seems to have fun as scum too, but more as town. The zombie thing is what I mean here.)

Now something interesting to note...in our private conversations, kirroha
did not say that she was Town. I'm not saying that this means that she is Scum but, it is interesting to me seeing as I'm not sure as to her alignment.

This almost looks like a forced "lover attack" after our previous discussions about how attacking your lover is a likely towntell.

3. If Kmd were scum, he's either lying/buddying or simply buddying. If he's town, then he's claiming access to knowledge that he simply doesn't have.

I didn't claim access to knowledge. I claimed a town read.

As to meta, I generally am against it, but there are certain things that you can look for. In a newbie game that I replaced into, SensFan (pretty well known, long time *good* player) self voted. Obviously, we thought it was scummy, but his meta was such that he does odd things when he's town. We stopped suspecting him, and he turned out to be town when he was NK'd. Meta can be useful, just that people have to pay attention.

TBH, I don't think this is a good example. Someone doing "odd things" as town doesn't make scumtells null. More specific things, maybe. But "odd things", no.

However, everyone - I don't think we should rush. I won't let you all lynch Percy without enough proof. After reading some of his posts I really feel that he's a townie. I don't think he's scum. We shouldn't waste a lynch, especially when they are so precious now. THAT'S WHY I WON'T LET YOU ALL LYNCH PERCY.

Um, what? Won't

let

us? Pretty strong defense here. How do you see him as so townie? I don't think you would defend your buddy so blatantly, but maybe I'm wrong.

Stop being so vague and elaborate on what she looks like usually as town and what she looks like in this game. If you can't do so, it will be assumed that you are either buddying up or protecting a partner.

I'm not saying you can't go after her if you think she is scum. I just said my read on her is town. That's all.

Why am I not being accused of defending you, Korts? I called you town too.

This post makes me want to lynch Percy. Also, the fact that he doesn't reply to me in our QT. PERCY PLEASE DO SO

This is interesting. He is posting pretty actively here, but he's avoiding your QT?

Did you ask a question that would make scum uncomfortable? Was he replying before or has he been relatively quiet there all game?

The other likely paradigm is Kmd/Zazie. Note that Zazie more or less ignores Kmd's meta bias in her favor; there is also Kmd's initial blind trust in Zazie's meta read on Percy, with Kmd apparently never looking into it himself.

I dismissed the meta point when I looked at the game.

[Kmd4390]

Fair enough, Amished.

I thought the example you provided was similar to excusing scummy actions by players with intentionally anti-town metas. I see that that is not the case.

[Kmd4390]

@Kirroha: Does that mean you know that Percy and Korts are both Townies?

I don't know about Korts, but it's true that my suspicions have lessened a lot on him, and I've forgot to

Unvote

in the last post.

Percy is the towniest player to me thus far. I really don't know why you all are so eager to lynch him at the beginning. Lynches are very precious to us in this setup. We really can't waste it. That's why I won't let you all lynch him.

You seem pretty overly defensive of Percy. And to just drop the case like that.

I'd say you are scum with either Percy or Korts. Probably Percy because Korts looks ridiculously townie.

-------------

Amished, are you saying you wouldn't vote me if you thought I was scum? Because I'd sure as hell vote you if you were scummy. I know that if you are scum, I can't win unless I die. So if I thought you were scum, I'd push that lynch in a second. Fortunately for you though, I currently see a Percy/Kirroha scum team.

[Kmd4390]

However, I think Percy/kirroha simply doesn't make much sense. Kirroha's reaction is so blatant and extreme and I just can't see that making sense from a scum perspective.

Too scummy to be scum is a terrible argument. This comes close to that. Being "so blatant" is not a towntell.

Sure, you're sticking to a meta. That doesn't mean it's not a meta that you've established to help you be scum.

Nobody ever called it anti-town before Korts. Not once. I didn't think anyone here even

knew

that meta. How would it help me as scum coming into this game?

Oh, argument from authority now. You've played 70 games? Then I must be wrong! I am so sorry, mafia master!

How fucking dense are you? Did I tell you to do anything? No. I said I know what OMGUS is by now.

You said the early game doesn't mean much. I vote you. After you had said that me voting someone else would be the protown move, you decide to vote me for my early game, which you didn't have a problem with before, after I voted you. Of course you won't admit it's OMGUS, but it is. (I also have a theory that OMGUS can happen subconsciously and after someone votes you, you start to see them as suspicious unintentionally for that reason, but I won't get into that here.)

I did take the early game with a grain of salt. I thought you may be jokevoting, but I also wanted to give you a chance to actively participate in the RVS. You didn't. You continued to defend an indefensible position. That's why I voted you.

Also, Korts is in no danger now. I don't think that had anything to do with my actions. Do you?

And I'm using authority. It's indefnsible (is that a word?) why? Because you said so?

And no, I don't think Korts has anything to do with your vote on me. You voted me because I am an immediate threat to your game. Because I caught scum, and if I'm dead tomorrow, maybe you, or at least your buddy, will still have a chance.

Let's try it with quotes, rather than with your ridiculously biased "summary", shall we?

If you think that looks less scummy on your part that way, I will laugh my ass off.

Hopefully that makes things a little clearer for you. I didn't misrepresent your argument - you said "I am very sure she's town because of her meta". I think that's crap.

Ok. That was my read. You think my read is crap. That's fine. Why is Zazie scummy then? Why haven't you expressed suspicion on her? Seriously, unless you either think she is scum, or you think it benefits me as scum to say I think she is town, I think you should drop this.

1. Just because you do it all the time doesn't make it any less scummy.
2. I have addressed this in this post, I feel.
3. You did it in the last post I responded to, and pointed it out then. You did it in the post I'm responding to now.
4. The point was that you didn't read it, but used it as a motivation to vote for me.
5. Telling someone they're town and saying that you trust them is buddying up. How else would you do it?

1. It makes it a null tell.
2. Ok. Agree to disagree then. I think my arguments were valid for reasons I stated. You think they aren't.
3. Where?
4. I didn't vote you on meta alone. I said that the meta added to the already existing case. With the meta dismissed, that addition is dismissed as well. Everything else is still there.
5. Seriously, you asked me my read. I looked closer and she seemed to be questioning as opposed to giving statements. That is her normal town game.

No you didn't. You said more than "I have a town read", and you know it!

"I am very sure she is town" was all I said until you attacked that much. Most everything I have said about Zazie being town was in response to you. I have not overblown anything. I've just answered crap attacks from scum.

What knowledge did I claim? And when? Quote it.

That doesn't change the fact that you were willing to believe it. Scum don't have to read closely or pay much attention, they just need to apply pressure in the right places. That's exactly what you're doing, and I've caught you doing it.

Actually, scum should pay more attention than town. They need to know how to control the game. Which players to paint as scummy. You get it though. You are doing a pretty decent job here as scum.

I get uneasy whenever anyone defends me or says they have a town read of me.

Why the fuck are town reads scummy in a game where scum don't even kill?

(Just as an example of some of the irrelevant bits in our QT: We have an avatar bet going on. I fail to see how that's especially useful in game).

This is true.

Normally I wouldn't have a problem with you refusing to reveal a towntell. But you cite Zazie's meta as proof of her alignment--you won't give scum any hints on how to act by showing her specific towntells; on the other hand, if you don't provide the specifics so that others can research as well, your case for her innocence will necessarily seem bullshit. You may not think you are able to identify this apparently strong tell, but you should try.

Your evasive answers aren't helpful here.

Um.

Percy, I'm very sure Zaz is town.

She is questioning like she normally does as town.

That's her specific town playstyle. I gave it in the post where I answered Percy's question. I'm not refusing to do anything.

We didn't talk at all before I tried to engage him in discussion. He's replied, so my post served its purpose.

Wouldn't town use the QT as much as they possibly can?

That is irrelevant. The fact that you initially trusted blindly in Zazie's judgement--which seemed especially damning, and thus should've warranted criticism rather than instant agreement--implies some sort of connection.

There is obviously a connection. That doesn't mean a connection as in we are scum in this game though.

But my faith in the kirroha-Percy axis is renewed. I'm prepared to vote Percy, pending on unspecified parameters which I am expecting to resolve soonish. If he flips scum, I trust town to carry on with a kirroha lynch.

Definitely agree with this.

[Kmd4390]

Um.

Why was Zazie replaced?

Sajin, I have a town read on you based on Zazie's play, yes.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, need to respond to scum again.

Nobody ever called it anti-town before Korts. Not once. I didn't think anyone here even knew that meta. How would it help me as scum coming into this game?

You may have been able to avoid the RVS, if Korts didn't call you on it.

Avoid the RVS? I fucking joke voted. That's what you do in the RVS. RVS. Random voting stage. I made a random vote, not truly random. Just like everyone else does. Discussion came from the RVS. Just like any other game. How the fuck am I "avoiding" the RVS by voting?

How fucking dense are you? Did I tell you to do anything? No. I said I know what OMGUS is by now.

By telling me that you knew what OMGUS was, you were implicitly rebutting my defence. I was telling you that it was a crap argument, because it is.

How is it a crap argument. I've said specifically why it's OMGUS. All you say is "nuh-uh".

Now you're arguing that it's subconscious OMGUS, something you are aware of, but I'm not (or at least saying that it's a possibility - incidentally, subconscious OMGUS seems like a towntell to me). I'm saying that my case is more than that, and you're being dismissive.

You misunderstood me. My theory is that subconscious OMGUS happens. Someone attacks you, you'll want to attack them. This is regardless of alignment. You either are town and honestly start to see them as scum, or you are scum and start to see them as too protown and needing to die.

It's indefnsible (is that a word?) why? Because you said so?

Yes, indefensible is a word. And yes, your position is indefensible. Your initial vote meant you avoided the RVS, and you've gone to great lengths to say that it meant nothing. But doing something that means nothing is just the same as doing nothing, so why do it at all?

Because that's how mafia games start. By making something of nothing. That's exactly what happened. And you didn't see it as a big deal at all until after I voted you.

I am conscious that the original vote reason was not very solid at all. It wasn't OMGUS, but I voted based on your actions and my read of you.

What changed between the time there was no side to pick and the time you voted me? Because you looked at the same point to say both.

Since then, your responses have been scummy, and my case has developed. I would be more than happy to ignore the "jokevote" scenario and still keep my vote on you.

I could say the same thing, scum.

Why is Zazie scummy then? Why haven't you expressed suspicion on her? Seriously, unless you either think she is scum, or you think it benefits me as scum to say I think she is town, I think you should drop this.

Again

with the false dichotomies. My read on ZazieR is pretty null, given that she hasn't posted in ages and I had a null read back when she was posting.

So you don't think it benefits me as scum to see her as town and yet it's scummy to see her as town? Still not following you here. How are you dumb enough to honestly believe this? You are either scum or the most retarded townie I have ever seen.

I think your statement that you were "very sure" that she is town was an unsupported, scummy statement. That does not mean that I think ZazieR is scummy, or that I have to establish that to make my point.

How was it unsupported. I said it was based on meta and even said what specifically she did that she normally does as town.

I didn't vote you on meta alone. I said that the meta added to the already existing case. With the meta dismissed, that addition is dismissed as well. Everything else is still there.

The point is that you didn't read it!

You just said "oh, that's another point against Percy!" without bothering to do your research. Sure, you retracted your statement when you were caught out, but that doesn't make the initial statement any better.

Fair enough.

I had a strong town read on a player who provided meta. I was wrong to blindly trust that meta.

What knowledge did I claim? And when? Quote it.

That's just the point - there is nothing in the thread to give you a "very town" read.

You

claimed that she was very town and didn't say why, beyond a meta impression. I'm saying that no meta impression can be that strong, and you haven't provided any evidence to show us why we should think she's town.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH ME

I'm sick of repeating this. My read is that she was town because she normally asks a lot of questions as town. If you want me to go through every single post she made before I said that and compare it exactly with a game where she was scum and a game where she was town, I could do it. I personally think that would be a waste of time, but that is exactly why I have the read I do. I'm not here to make your opinions for you. I'm here to get my own reads and push my own cases. I think I'm doing that right now.

Actually, scum should pay more attention than town. They need to know how to control the game. Which players to paint as scummy. You get it though. You are doing a pretty decent job here as scum.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Town can only win if they participate and read everything. Scum can just skim and get vibes and pick and choose a few quotes. Good scum should read, but scum can get away with not reading.

Bullshit scum can get away with not reading. Scum HAVE to read in order to make cases that are actually convincing. Just as much as, if not more than town.

Why the fuck are town reads scummy in a game where scum don't even kill?

Have you noticed all the attention kirroha's getting for her read of me? Do you think that her actions should be dismissed? Oh wait, no, you think that the kirroha/Percy axis is great, and that kirroha should be lynched! At least

try

to be consistent.

Kirroha flat out said she WON'T LET us lynch you. That is a terrible stance to take. Looks like newbie scum whose buddy is going down. When you flip scum, I'm setting my effort on Kirroha next.

You also asked me where you strawmanned, misrepped and established false dichotomies. The instances are clearly marked in my posts, including this one.

Don't throw around words you don't understand unless you can point to them specifically. Go play a newbie game. The ICs will tell you what all this stuff means. Maybe you can be scum with an IC too. They'll show you how not to get caught like this.

----------------

Can we lynch this guy now?

[Kmd4390]

Like your response was any better - "it is OMGUS even if you're not aware of it, because it's subconscious".

That was

one

possibility. I actually think you are more than aware of your OMGUS.

Fuck you. Seriously, fuck you.

If I'm lynched today and you're actually pro-town, I know you'll step away from your computer and think about how terrible a player I was, how it was all my fault, how you are the mafia king and how it doesn't really mean anything about your mafia abilities that you are so wrong about me. You're still great at mafia. You're awesome. You've played 70 games! It's really all my fault!

Have fun with that.

Did I ever say that?

I said that if you are town, you are retarded. I'd stand by that, but I'd still be upset about being wrong. That is how I am. I'd blame myself before I'd blame you.

Yes, you did. However, I don't agree that you could have the strong impression you had, and still think there's a good possibility that you were buddying.

Agree to disagree?

Or that she's newbie scum who wants townie points from being against a town lynch. kirroha's alignment is independent of mine, as far as I can see.

What is your opinion on Kirroha right now?

Anyone who is even thinking of voting for me because of kirroha's actions is on drugs.

I agree.

It's points against her when you flip scum, not the other way around.

I marked them clearly. Look, I've even gone to the bother of quoting it all for you below. I've either bolded or inserted comments to make it even easier for you to read

Bout time. Now I can respond to it.

First one- I don't see the misrep. You asked my opinion. I answered. You disagreed with my answer (by calling it crap) and called it scummy.
Second one- I never said that you had to think she was scum. (I did say that it made no sense for you to attack my opinion unless you either disagreed with it or thought it had scummy motives, but that was later.) This is actually a strawman on your part.
Third one- I'm not strawmanning. I'm calling it how it is. Your vote is OMGUS. Plain and simple.
Fourth one- It's not a misrep at all. You continue to ask about my town read on Zazie. I continue to answer. And you tell me stuff like "my defense of her is overblown" when all I am doing is responding to you.
Fifth one- I don't see anything wrong with this one. If it doesn't benefit me as scum, and you don't think she is scum, what is wrong with my stance?

So, yeah. Don't you accuse me of being unclear and "too amateur for Kmd's awesomeness", because I have been transparent from the beginning.

Can I just call you 'caught scum' instead?

I've been thinking more and more that Kmd may simply be tunnelled town, and a jerk.

Awww, how sweet. Guys, he said I'm a jerk. <3

My own personal desire to be vindicated has outstripped my objectivity and value to the town. Most other players have been happy to just step back and let us fight it out, which is never a good sign.

I agree that if by some chance you are town, scum are on the sidelines. DDD would probably be the first place I'd look. But Kirroha is your scumbuddy, so that doesn't matter.

Kmd has been evasive and done the three things that I've said over and over again (misrep, strawman, false dichotomies), and I pointed them out. My case is, at the moment, centred around his poor responses to my attacks rather than the initial charges I levelled, and I can't tell the difference in my head any more between Kmd being scum and Kmd and I tunnelling and clashing and blowing things out of proportion

And you haven't blown ANYTHING out of proportion, right?

I don't think I have enough of a case to vote Kmd. If I am lynched, we can't afford another mislynch, and I don't want to develop the Kmd/Percy axis any more than I have, because I just don't have good, objective arguments any more as to why he should die after me, or vice versa. We're getting close to the deadline, and I feel that I need to widen my focus with a solid re-read.

If you are town, you really should have another real suspect soon.

[Kmd4390]

Percy, would you like me to tone down my attacks? I don't mean anything personal by it.

[Kmd4390]

Mitey, if Kirroha is scum, you can't possibly win AND survive. Realize that before calling yourself selfish.

[Kmd4390]

Well, I haven't read the whole post yet (3:20AM and tired/lazy), but it looks like Percy just named possible scum from every pair but his own and voted the biggest suspect other than himself.

[Kmd4390]

I see what you did there.

It's different. I'm attacking your stance and admitting to it. You were saying my certainty was scummy. I'm saying your stance itself is scummy.

You have 4 suspects in a game with 2 scum? Really? And they include players in every pair but your own. Convenient much?

[Kmd4390]

You're simply pointing out that my suspects happen to fall in a configuration you call scummy, as you think attacking someone in every pair simultaneously is a good way to make friends and influence people.

Look.

Read what I am fucking saying for once.

I never once said that you were trying to influence people. You are setting yourself up to accept any lynch but your own. Scum do this all the fucking time.

If you name just one player as scum from every pair but your own, you can just as easily jump on their lover to get the lynch.

-----------------

I actually wouldn't mind a Kirroha lynch right now, but obviously, I'd much rather lynch obvscum Percy over here.

[Kmd4390]

It's fucking hard to fucking read what you fucking don't fucking

write

.

Really? That's all you've done all fucking game, so it can't be that hard.

I explicitly said I wanted a kirroha/Mitey lynch. I do not want anyone but them to be lynched today.

If Mitey flips scum, then I will turn my sights to Amished.

Is that clear?

If you go after a DDD/Sajin lynch, I'm pointing back to this post. No more hopping around for you.

[Kmd4390]

Because we don't have a very recent vote count, here's an unnofficial one for my convenience as well as everyone else's.

Kirroha - 3 - DDD, Korts, Percy
Percy - 2 - Kmd, Sajin
Not Voting=Amished, Kirroha, Mitey

The number of players not voting just before a deadline is unacceptable. Kirroha and Mitey are both lurkers and that pair has the highest chance of containing scum. While Percy is the scummiest individual player BY FAR, the Kirroha lynch works too. I think she is his buddy, so I won't stand in the way of that lynch.

Unvote, Vote Kirroha

Amished, I notice you haven't voted ANYONE yet. Why is this?

I still want Percy dead ASAP.

[Kmd4390]

Simulpost.

That's a hammer.

[Kmd4390]

I don't see how Korts is scum for getting suspicion from a newer scum player. I do, however, (obviously) think that Percy is scum.

Vote Korts

[Kmd4390]

I think newer scum are more likely to defend their partner and be wishy washy on everyone else.

(As first time scum, I tunneled on a townie.)

[Kmd4390]

I think Kort's attitude towards kirroha on Day 1 is difficult to square with Korts-scum, given that it was sustained over several pages, abandoned then resumed twice, and filled with content.

Of course you do. His lynch is your loss.

I'm going to re-read Amished. If Korts and I are killed before I'm done, then I suggest you all look at Amished too when (and if) Korts flips town.

Yeah, he might be easier to lynch than I was, right?

Also,

I explicitly said I wanted a kirroha/Mitey lynch. I do not want anyone but them to be lynched today.

If Mitey flips scum, then I will turn my sights to Amished.

Is that clear?

If you go after a DDD/Sajin lynch, I'm pointing back to this post. No more hopping around for you.

Mitey was town. Kirroha was the scum. And you are still going to look at Amished?

[Kmd4390]

Yeah, Korts can't be scum. Percy is though.

[Kmd4390]

Damn.

Guess I don't get to enjoy my iPod avatar for very long. Be gentle Amished.

I kind of feel bad about my attack on Percy now. Percy, assuming you are still reading, nothing personal. I just thought you were scum.

I'm leaning DDD as scum because of the way he's kind of flown under the radar (he's been here posting pretty actively, but hasn't gotten much attention) and because his attack on Kirroha seemed like half-assed distancing. Amished is my number two choice. I haven't seen much from him that has looked suspicious, but small things have caught my attention. And I'm pretty sure Sajin is town.

[Kmd4390]

Amished, I can follow most of that. But, how did Kirroha being scummy give you a read on Mitey. Unless you are saying that because Kirroha was scum, Mitey had to be town, I don't follow you there.

Sajin, if posting during twilight is a scumtell, you are the only townie still alive. Why did Amished stand out during twilight?

Amished seemed to be saying that he was pretty sure we hit scum with yesterday's lynch. I said basically the same thing, but more confident than Amished. Why was his post scummy? I'm more concerned with DDD's "you guys" comment to separate himself from a lynch that scum would know contained two townies.

[Kmd4390]

Seems to be saying he thinks Percy is scum even if our true lynch, Korts, wasn't.

And Percy being town doesn't make him right.

[Kmd4390]

Yea, KMD; there's no scum/scum lover pairing, so with Kirroha being scum in my eyes, Mitey would then have to be town. As Mitey was rather neutral just on her own, Kirroha being scummy raised her from neutral to pro-town, even without much contribution.

Fair enough.

I don't have much on Sajin, but him coming in and attacking his partner right off the bat accusing DDD of WIFOM arguing rather than using better facts than that make him townie in my eyes as well. Zaz was pretty pro-town throughout as well, so DDD really is my only target. We need 3 to lynch, and as there's only 1 scum there's really no possibility of a quick hammer if I'm wrong so I'll put my vote out there as well.

Remember how I said small things keep popping up? Why aren't you looking at me at all? It looks like you are basically saying that because you think Sajin is town, DDD has to be scum. There's a town-town pair out there and no guarantee that it's us. You're starting to make this decision harder for me.

[Kmd4390]

DDD, why did you see me as the most likely to be Kirroha's partner? And why are you now pushing Amishedscum over Kmdscum? You originally had Zazie as second most likely. Why aren't you looking at Sajin now?

Amished, I missed 243 for some reason. Reading now. (looks like we simulposted, so I missed it.) Ok, so you basically looked at my play for the entire game and I missed it. And so did Sajin. Interesting.

Sajin, you said in 249 that Amished "completely ignored" me "which makes him scum". What is your opinion now that he looked at my whole game in 243?

[Kmd4390]

Why has DDD suddenly become more verbose?

[Kmd4390]

So kmd can do the right thing if he feels so inclined and I'm not around for a while to finish things off.

I actually think you are more likely scum.



I don't want to hammer on a lynch I don't necessarily agree with...

[Kmd4390]

I'm gonna wait for Amished to answer.

One of the two of you is probably scum, so I think watching you two go at it a little bit might help me make a decision.

[Kmd4390]

KMD I await your opinion on this.

I find myself agreeing with you. DDD has pretty much given you a free pass. He just said that "evidence" leads him to believe you are town, but hasn't said why. He really hasn't looked at you at all. He was set on lynching Kirroha and is now set on lynching Amished. I think he planned the entire game from Day 1. Buss Kirroha and then go after the town/town pairs for the win.

Vote DDD

[Kmd4390]

What ever happened to your waiting for amished kmd?

Your exchange with DDD reinforces my original thought that DDD is scummier than Amished.

[Kmd4390]

I win.

[Kmd4390]

Yeah, I actually convinced myself that Percy was scum.

It made it easier to force a case on someone who honestly was playing a pretty good game.

Korts, I was really happy to see your self-hammer. Sajin's vote on DDD was the only thing that made me happier in this game.

[Kmd4390]

Well played, Kevin! I am impressed.

(Also, not offended at all, I really enjoyed this game)

Thanks. It was fun. And my attack on you was 100% strategical. I was trying to make you look much worse than you actually were. You were actually playing a good game and I was laughing through most of my attacks.

I regret how I phrased my first attack on you, Kmd. I really thought you were scum because of your buddying with ZazieR, rather than the voting thing, but I edited the post at the last minute because I thought the argument flowed better if I voted you for the first thing, then said "and here's another reason!". I then had to defend my stupid votereason, which took focus off the actual votereason, without appearing to backpedal.

Well. My actions regarding Zazie weren't because I was scum. That's just how I am with her. I usually see her as town and I always random vote her. I never saw it as anti-town. It's just what I do.

I was almost 100% sure DDD was town by the end, and either Kevin or Amished was scum. When Amished voted DDD and Kevin jumped on, I

knew

Kevin was scum. Sajin's votereason was pretty crap, and I think there were far more convincing leads on the others than just DDD not talking about Sajin.

Yeah, I thought I was done when Amished got to L-1 and I didn't hammer. I had shown suspicion on Amished just to try to look protown, but nowhere near enough that I would ever have to lynch him. But then he was at L-1 in LYLO and I had to absolutely refuse to lynch him. I was just waiting for a reason to vote DDD and finally got it when he wouldn't look at Sajin who was actually pretty obvtown to begin with.