Newbie #840 (Game Over!)

[geekalicious]

Hey everybody! To get the ball rolling on discussion, can everybody state their policy on lynching lurkers?

[geekalicious]

Hm, well, I'd defer to the wiki definition:

When a player is intentionally quiet during a game's Day, or misses their Night Choice, they are said to be lurking. The term most often applies to voluntary absence, but players who unintentionally find themselves absent over a sufficient length of time without first notifying the game moderator and other players are also often accused of lurking (even though they are more accurately flaking).

My own policy on lynching lurkers (since I know the question will come up)? On the one hand, lurking hurts the town by decreasing discussion. Also, scum can hide behind the screen of silence. On the other hand, however, you have town players that simply don't post nearly as much as others. While I definitely do not endorse that (last game I was in, the scum escaped when we were in lylo because too much lurking stalled discussion), it leads me to conclude that lurking isn't necessarily the best of scum tells and should mostly be used in conjunction with other tells.

[geekalicious]

I really detest the random voting stuff, but it seems to be customary here....But since I've got to randomly vote, I might as well vote for nobody...

Random Vote: Snow_Bunny

Blast! I meant nobody! Ah, well, anyway....

If you detest random voting so much, why did you vote for somebody? I personally don't really like random voting either which is why I posed a question as an alternative.

Is there a specific reason that you're looking for us to all state policies, Geekalicious?

I never asked you to state all policies, just what you feel about lynching lurkers. *putting words in my mouth*

[geekalicious]

Mod, just noted that I'm listed as an SE.... I only have one game of experience.

[geekalicious]

Geek - the random vote was a joke. Snow_bunny sounds like nobody....Ok, I thought it was funny, at least. Anyway....Ok, if you think that statement was putting words in your mouth, fine. Why do you want us to discuss our lurker lynch policies right now?

The game has to begin in some way, and if you don't espouse the random voting phase, then the only alternative I've seen is to ask questions. Also, especially in a newbie game, questions are useful for introducing some strategies early on that will help us to find the scum.

[geekalicious]

That thing about, don't mess with my family, or what ever, was a joke, any way who really cares, so many null voted that we could not lynched someone if we wanted to. And why the heck would I think she was a lurker?

I'm finding this implication of a "family" to be somewhat scummy. It could have been a joke or a reference to the scum "family", and I'm not quite sure which. Additionally, I also want some more qualification on why you chose to vote for Snow_Bunny over the other players. Like she's mentioning, it seems to be OMGUS as you already had a vote out on her.

Any way who really cares, at the first day its really hard to kill off someone if you have to have a strict majority, not just the most votes.

Sorry if I'm being dense, but what do you mean by this...?

In re: the earlier question - two votes are bad if they are random because it makes it easier for someone to be lynched at random. I should think that this is fairly self-evident.

CooLDoG - if not for inactivity, why your vote for Snow_Bunny when she already had one on her?

No time to post the rest of my thoughts - I'll be back after class.

I still can't see what led you to accuse CooLDoG for voting for Snow_Bunny because of lurking when he said absolutely nothing to suggest that as the vote reason.

[geekalicious]

Actually, I'm having a hard time stomaching it, overall.

Between the, apparent, slip up (the use of family) and the reaction to the FoS I am bothered.

I'm doubly bothered by Sposh's vote in regards to the OMGUS voting - because it reads as CD is town being pushed up via scum, which is a fairly hard line stance at this juncture.

Although concerned with CD, I find post 44 more voteworthy.

Vote: Sposh

I think Sposh's vote on Snow_Bunny is scummy too. However, isn't it hasty to vote for Sposh before he even has a chance to respond to the accusations against him?

[geekalicious]

The more I see of CooLDoG's play, the scummier he's seeming. First, he referenced to some ambiguous "family" then he put what seems to be an OMGUS vote out on Snow_Bunny. When pressure about the vote, he then voted no lynch. When explained to why voting no lynch is a bad thing, he takes the opposite extreme,

Fine, but then who should I vote for, unless we bandwagon we can not get any one lynched at all, right? So we would be in the same position after all. Thus my vote is almost useless, and I can almost predict that we will end up in the same position that you described. And how could one no vote be any better then voting for one random person, whom would have no chance of getting his neck pulled?

and basically says that if we're not voting no lynch then we're lynching someone randomly, not based on the tells they produce.

Well, as of now it looks like the only person the people should lynch is me, but it would be almost harisy me to vote for myself right, plus I have no idea who should be a scum. Also if I roleclamed right now it would be of no use to me since you would just shout, "SCUM!!!". In the end since people are now yelling at me to go to bed I might vote change in the morning. Depending on what happens. I will say again I don't know of any one yet that would be worth my vote so thus I null vote until I see someone who should be killed. This will be my new policy all game long, since I will change it latter to a person that might be a scum it won't matter what it looks like at first. But Dad must have drilled too much math in me over the past few weeks/years... I always look at a strict % of almost everything *sigh*.

Now, he goes to another extreme and suggests roleclaiming and self-voting when there's only one vote on him at the moment! Basically, he's starting to look less like possibly flustered noob town and seems to be going deeper into flustered newb scum territory.

Not to mention the other things that can happen with a lynch. For example: Day 1 we pull it together and hit the Mafia RB.

That opens up some serious possibilities for the next day. In that situation, what do you think could happen?

Roleblocker? Definitely a possible scum slip. I don't think it's vote worthy in and of itself, but it's definitely enough to raise some suspicion on my part.

[geekalicious]

I've chosen my first vote "victim".

Vote: Netopalis

He seems very active and engaged in the game; it seems like some kind of excitement, which makes sense if he's scum. Also, despite all of his posts, many aren't really helpful, with only questions and such, which is, in my experience a way of scum.[/s]

So you're criticizing someone for being TOO involved, for being "very active and engaged in the game"?

You can say they are scummy if they is too pro-town. They might be doing that to keep us from seeing the scum under their pro-town face.

So, what, do you prefer an occasional scum tell out of a player to prove them as pro-town vs. "too" pro-town?

[geekalicious]

Let's see what every one is about so:

ME, CD: Made a jest on first page about "family" thus making him look scummy, and prompted 2-3 votes on him. He then with pressure took off his vote and then no lynched, then he after more facts unvoted, thus looking even more scummy.

Sposh: He post very little and now seems to think that CD is not scum at all, could this be because both him and CD are scum, or in my opinion to distance himself from CD making CD look like scum and he a bandwagon normal townsperson while he is really scum and CD is not?

Netopalis: one of the main people that thinks cooldog is scum. He also now has gotten a small amount of scummy thoughts toward him for his "theory" post about why not to vote no lynch on CD, Cd then after that unvoted

Snow_Bunny: Is who started getting CD into scummy ground, since it his vote on her that got all of the Lynch CD, and was what really started the scum hunt, other then that she is one of the only players not to have a "scum tag" on them.

geekalicious: almost hates cooldog's choice of no lynch and thinks he is scummier by the second, could he be scum himself, or just trying to be a townly man? As we know one way to not look scummy is to be an active player for the town, while stabbing them in the back at night.

SpyreX: is in my opinion the smartest player, but could that mean he is scummy? so far however he has shown no signs of being scum, but just like geek...

DarkLightA: just voted for Netopalis , for being to active and maybe scum.

I tried to show this from a "outside" perspective so we can all get a better Idea of what I am thinking and what has happened at THE MOMENT

all I have to say for now...

I just have a serious problem with this post. You point out that everyone could be scum in this game for varying reasons. Basically, however, this will obviate you from taking responsibility later on for your voting patterns because you can basically point back at this post and say "Well, I thought he was scum here! See, see!" Honestly, combined with my other posts against you, I think it's time for a vote.

Vote: CooLDoG

[geekalicious]

still say we need to think about this more SB is right, we need more info... but seeing as there are 3 votes, might as well...

vote:darklighta

and fyi I will not change this vote unless he can prove he an't worth a lynch.

Wow. Putting a player at L-1 before the other two players (who, for all we know at this point could be our scum team) have posted. Nice. [/sarcasm]

But look what if their an't a doc, he clams doc and we have no one to counter claim. I guess that is a risk we will have to take, but very well we only need one more person to post and then we shall start the speedy trial. Who cares about speculations, we just need to be sure we get this guy and we limit the error that we may have, but if he role clams doc my vote stays.

Ah, so you're going on again about lynching quickly, talking about having a "speedy" trial. Scummy because the quicker we move to lynch, the less time we have to discuss and figure out the situation.

Vote: CooLDoG
I believe that is how you vote for a lynching.
I believe CooLDoG is extremely active and is convincing people to vote for another player. It seems logically clear that he seems to be the one to be the most suspicious.

Could you give more of an explanation for your vote? If you're confused about different things, then just ask one of us/ pay a visit to the MafiaScum wiki for technical term definitions.

[geekalicious]

DL, you responded to none of the allegations against you. Are you unaware of the gravity of your situation? Barring unforseen circumstances, you WILL be lynched today. Make your case.

I don't see how you say that he responded to none of the allegations. Let's look at DarkLightA's case side by side with Sposh's.

Who is really worrying me at the moment, though, is DarkLight.

He only has about six posts at this point, one of which was the random FOS (why wouldn't you random vote?).

He then comments on the lynch all lurkers debate and says we should focus on people who make short statements rather than meaningful posts. He cites an example from a game he played (would you mind linking us to that game, DarkLight?), then EBWOPs and says he really enjoys fast games. (Isn't a day that moves too fast bad for town?)

And as if his random FOS instead of a random vote wasn't bad enough, he actually takes the time to UN-random-FOS, giving another example of when he got lynched during random voting because "people weren't fans of unvoting". (This seems like another stretch of logic... mind linking us to THIS game, DarkLight?)

He's also telling people not to trust anyone, which to me, seems like pretty basic logic! It felt unnecessary to say that, from where I stand. Also, I do NOT agree with his vote at all on Netopalis for being "excited" about the game. It also seems hypocritical to say that Netopalis doesn't have many helpful posts.

I think I'll Vote DarkLightA for all the reasons stated above. Sorry about the really long post!

@Sposh:

why wouldn't you random vote? --- I explained that in my random fos post.
would you mind linking us to that game, DarkLight? --- @mod: Can I post a link? It's a different site, but not mafia-related. They just have forum games every now and then
he really enjoys fast games. (Isn't a day that moves too fast bad for town?) --- Don't put words in my mouth. I also explained this later. It's not fast games, it's games that move quickly, as in 2+ posts an hour on average, instead of 1 post a day. This ends up helping town, as it pressures mafia.

And as if his random FOS instead of a random vote wasn't bad enough, he actually takes the time to UN-random-FOS, giving another example of when he got lynched during random voting because "people weren't fans of unvoting". This seems like another stretch of logic... mind linking us to THIS game, DarkLight? --- It's the same game as the previously mentioned one.
@the random FoS unvote:
You random voted
You un-random voted

I random FoSed
I un-random FoSed

See the similarity?

The first point of Sposh's he addresses is the whole random voting deal. He had already explained why he didn't random vote, and to me, not engaging in random voting isn't really a scum tell to begin with. Next, he goes on to specifically ask mod permission to link up to the game Sposh requested.

Then, he goes on to talk about how he already explained in what sense he likes fast games. However, I'll go ahead and note that this is hypocritical on DarkLightA's part to say he likes games that are fast like that and then be one of the less frequent posters.

Also, DarkLightA does have a point that Sposh did random vote and unrandom vote in a parallel way that DarkLightA random FOS'd and un-random FOS'd.

So overall at this point, I'm much more so alarmed at the speed at which the DarkLightA wagon formed, pushing him to L-1 before the two remaining players had even posted AND when we're not even three real life days into the game.

[geekalicious]

I think what we must do to find who is in the mafia. We need to see which TWO people are helping each other and supporting each other.

You make the process sound simple. What if the members of the scum team are deliberately distancing themselves from each other?

[geekalicious]

Oh, and muh316, not sure if I mentioned this earlier, but it would be really helpful if you got an avatar. It'll make it much easier to identify your posts during re-reads.

[geekalicious]

I'm going to agree that you need to read the whole thread, muh316. Admitting to laziness like that is scummy and definitely puts you on my radar.

As far as DarkLightA's claim is concerned, I don't like that he claimed just a generic power role, nothing specific. If he doesn't get lynched today, then we can't have him prove his claim with night actions such as an investigation because the claim is too general.

2) Do games really ever have one post a day!? I find this hard to believe. Also, I didn't see the post where you explained this, so I apologize.

Unfortunately, yes, they sometimes do.

[geekalicious]

As I said before the lynch, the speed of the bandwagon on DarkLightA made me feel disconcerted. Our deadline wasn't until, what... September 30th, and we've already lynched?! I definitely think one or both of the scum was driving the lynch at such a speed. My suspicions still fall on CooLDoG for all his eagerness in lynching with statements like

Good, now we see what they think, and we make him roleclaim, and then we are set to go.

I also want muh316 to explain his hammer. Especially after he admitted to being too lazy to read the thread fully (which could basically be used as a lack of knowing what's going on in the game sort of excuse when he does scummy things), I am now more suspicious of him.

[geekalicious]

In light of Netopalis flipping mafia roleblocker, I'm definitely seeing SpyreX's slip much less as a potential wording error and more so as a definite scum slip. Also, note that when SpyreX made the slip, Netopalis immediately helped excuse him, saying

SB, I'd say that's just speculation as an example of a best case scenario...I don't think he was implying that he knew that there was one.

which was probably a way to dispel suspicion off of his scum partner.

Vote: SpyreX

[geekalicious]

The question remains is why would SpyrX hammer out NET even if he was his scum buddy. It could have been a matter of sacrifice for the mafia. Maybe SpyrX is not scum. We have to think about this clearly.

It's called bussing and could likely be an attempt by SpyreX to dispel suspicion off of him through having hammered his partner.

[geekalicious]

Geek - A moderate stance on lurking is fine. However, when the play has been bordering on lurking is a little bothersome. A defensive-attack on DLA for saying that Net was too involved makes sense (as I would agree) but is also a good spot for correctly defending a partner. Then, 1 post day 2...before the cop claim/cc. And the quickvote start of today. Overall, not impressed.

I haven't had time to fully read the rest of your posts yet, but I'll go ahead and respond to this point. As far as the day 2 lynch was concerned, I basically woke up that morning, checked the thread and didn't see anything to comment on, spent the whole morning in lectures, went to lunch, then during my lunch break, saw all that had happened with the Netopalis lynch. The thread basically went too fast for me to even know what was going on during class.

[geekalicious]

SpyreX, first off, I don't like how you basically post and put at least some small degree of suspicion on everyone else before you defend yourself when you're at L-1. Looks like you're trying to displace suspicion as far as possible.

Secondly, your defense lies (by your own admission: "However, and WIFOM all you want: ") mostly on WIFOM type points like whether scum would that CC'd cop would try to clear his partner, and it just isn't striking me as very genuine.

[geekalicious]

Because I fully expect to be lynched and I want this out there via tomorrow? And, well, everyone has done at least something to warrant suspicion?

And when the attack is, ultimately, based on what a scum said it IS WIFOM.

I'm really not impressed with the fact your vote is on me and this hedging about whether or not I'm actually scum.

1) I didn't complain because you posted your suspicions. I complain because you post your suspicions first before you address the issue of defending yourself at L-1 which seems like you're trying to spread suspicion around to try and delay your lynch.

2) If my case against you was just about your potential scum interaction with Netopalis alone, then I wouldn't have a vote out on you. This is about the fact that I think you made a genuine scum slip when you mentioned a "mafia roleblocker" on Day 1.

[geekalicious]

I'm putting money on the scum being one of (Green / Cool). And if its green I think its a scum win come tomorrow.

Green/ Cool....?

[geekalicious]

Yes, I’ll agree with Sposh that we don’t need to vote for anyone until we come to an agreement about who the scum is. If we vote before we’re decided, the scum could just come in and hammer, thus ending the game.

WHY would someone kill SpyreX?

Speculation about the night kill isn't the best way to go... It tends to lead down a dark WIFOM laden path.

I don't like muh's rationale behind the vote, and I think geek has been coasting through the game, but I definitely find CooLDoG more suspicious from a rational point of view, whereas Spyre is only suspicious because of what Neto said.

I’ll go ahead and respond to the idea that I’ve been coasting through the game. Honestly, this is one of the fastest games I’ve seen. As an example, in my previous game to this one, we spent about 19 pages arguing and went almost to the first deadline (which would have been September 30th for us) before we lynched. I definitely try to be an active poster.

[geekalicious]

END OF DAY ONE VOTES:
DarkLightA (5) - Sposh, Netopalis, CooLDoG, SpyreX, muh316
CooLDoG (1) - geekalicious
Sposh (1) - DarkLightA

Not Voting (2) - Santos, Snow_Bunny



END OF DAY TWO VOTES:
Netopalis (4) - Snow_Bunny, Sposh, muh316, SpyreX
Snow_Bunny (1) - Netopalis

Not Voting (2) - CooLDoG, geekalicious



END OF DAY THREE VOTES:
CooLDoG (3) - SpyreX, muh316, Sposh
SpyreX (2) - geekalicious, CooLDoG

I still think muh's random hammer at the end of day one is incredibly scummy, but I also find the fact that geekalicious was sitting out on Neto's lynch odd as well.

I already explained why I wasn't present on Day 2. I literally woke up that morning, then came to find Netopalis to be lynched that afternoon. Literally no time for commentary.

Geek was never been voted for throughout this entire game. He has also been lurking a lot. He seems a bit suspicious as he has been staying on everyone's good side and not getting into serious arguements. He's playing a bit too safe. The inactivity and what I mentioned just puts the clues together. HE could be the one. He could be part of the mafia.

This goes back to the issue of being too town. What do you define as "playing too safe"? I've put votes out on people and stated my opinion as the game has gone on. So, are you going to go with voting for me specifically because I haven’t drawn a lot of suspicion? Or could you actually give me solid examples in the thread where I’ve been scummy?

I can’t post any more right now, but I plan to post my reads soon.

[geekalicious]

You are being too pro-town. Which us leaving me to my suspicions. Most of the townies here have made many slips. You on the other hand have none.

Oh, so you what, do you like the occasional scum slip out of someone to clear them as innocent, eh? Also, I note that you still haven't given any solid evidence on why you're suddenly finding me so scummy when I don't recall you expressing any suspicion before.

[geekalicious]

Previously I had all suspicions on other users. I had thoughts about you but the others were much more important. At some times I completely forgot who you are.You were lurking.

Alright, so I'm getting strong accusations of lurking from the player that didn't show up until page 7 of the game? Uh huh. Additionally, you keep evading the request: Give me specific instances of me engaging in scummy behavior. If you don't have any evidence, then you're just pushing a case along for no reason which looks very scummy to me.

[geekalicious]

This is my first game and I had completely forgotten that I even signed up for mafiascum until i got a PM notification from iamusername.
I never said you were engaging in scummy behavior all I said was that you were lurking. Which MIGHT be what a scum does.

So, before when you said this:

You are being too pro-town. Which us leaving me to my suspicions. Most of the townies here have made many slips. You on the other hand have none.

what do mean by suspicions if you don't see aren't accusing me of undefined scummy behavior?

[geekalicious]

EBWOP: what do mean by suspicions if you aren't accusing me of undefined scummy behavior?

[geekalicious]

Its just a strong feeling I have in me about you. In this game you can't trust anyone. We trusted Neto and he turned out to be scum. I'm just trying to get this game somewhere. I havent voted yet so dont be worried.

Claiming to have suspicions about me without summoning any solid evidence is scummy.

I hammered him BEFORE DLA did the claim that he was doc.

So, you're basically admitting that you hammered before you gave him an opportunity to clarify his claim?

[geekalicious]

FoS: muh316

Since we've been in lylo, he's been throwing suspicion on me without producing any evidence when previously he never expressed any sort of suspicions. Coupled with the hammering and admission of being too lazy to read the thread earlier in the game, I just feel he's distinctly scummy.

[geekalicious]

Oh, and Sposh, most of this past page seems to be interaction between me and muh316. Could we get your opinion at the moment and FoS?

[geekalicious]

I'm observing the interactions at this point, and I'm waiting to see how it plays out. At this point, I'd vote muh over geek, but I'm still undecided, because I think muh has played scummy enough to where geekscum could paint him as a Mafia member quite easily!

Not quite sure about your logic behind this.... You admit that muh316 has played scummy, yet somehow I'm the one painting him as scummy? Didn't he paint himself scummy through his actions?

Also, laying back and trying to see what interactions come out of lylo isn't exactly pro-town, Sposh. It makes you seem like scum that's opportunistically hovering.

[geekalicious]

I dont know how I am playing scummy. I was just stating my opinion on Geek.

Stating your opinion about me without stating evidence behind it is scummy.

[geekalicious]

Believe what you want to. It's called an OPINION. What you are thinking at the time. It was just a thought that came into my head that was telling me that you were scum and I thought I should share it with you. If I was by any chance mafia then I could have targeted Sposh.

This is not a game of only opinion. Either you bring solid evidence against a person, or you look scummy for trying to push a case along without any substance. Additionally, targetting me does not make you any less scummy. In fact, it makes you more scummy since you can't even bring up instances of me engaging in scummy behavior.

[geekalicious]

Hm.... As the game continues to move further and further into the Day, I'm just becoming more and more convinced that muh316 is our final scum. He just keeps trying hard to displace suspicion onto me, a player he can't even summon instances of scumminess on. The SE in my last game told me that when you're in lylo, you vote whenever you really become convinced that a player must be scum. I'm almost at that point here. muh316, either give some actual evidence or cases on who you think to be scum, or I'm going to go ahead and vote for you.

[geekalicious]

I was just saying that I could have targeted you IF i was a mafia member because you seemed to have played a bit more scummier than Geek. It could have been an easy lynch for you. And how are you so sure that Geek is town. I must say that I am town. The problem is whether you believe it or not. I could soon be said to that I was the worst townie ever. Geek go ahead and vote for me. I bet sposh is waiting anytime to hammer any of us so be careful. If i vote for you then hammer comes down on you and if you vote for me then hammer comes down on me. He could be our scum geek.

Oh, so now you go from having suspicions against me without any examples to having a case against Sposh without any concrete examples mentioned against him, all while STILL not providing any evidence against me.

Vote: muh316

[geekalicious]

Wow. Putting up demonic faces after someone votes for you. That really makes you not look like scum. [/sarcasm]

Sposh, I've put my vote out there. What are your thoughts/ analyses at the moment?

[geekalicious]

WHY would someone kill SpyreX?

The thing is WHY would mafia kill spyrex if he was our main suspect. It would make sense if they killed one of us but Spyrex was unexpected.

Hm, I wanted to go ahead and post commentary on why I chose SpyreX as the Night 3 kill over muh316 or Sposh. It was a difficult decision, but there were two main factors:
1. SpyreX was our IC and hence I figured his scum tuners would be much more likely to zone in on me with CooLDoG gone. He was already starting to get suspicious, and I didn't think I'd be able to survive lylo easily with him present.
2. I knew that I wouldn't really be able to sway votes toward SpyreX on Day 4 based on the following:

I don't like muh's rationale behind the vote, and I think geek has been coasting through the game, but I definitely find CooLDoG more suspicious from a rational point of view, whereas Spyre is only suspicious because of what Neto said.

This has all turned into a WIFOM, but when you come to think of it, why in the world would a mafia member try to take down his partner. It makes sense into what SpyrX is saying.

Basically, regardless of who I left alive with SpyreX, I saw that they wouldn't be likely inclined to vote for him in lylo.

A sort of contributing side factor was that I knew killing SpyreX would be very disorienting for the town since it appeared that the scum strategy was clearly to set him. Killing him basically set things off balance.

Anyway, really fun game! The speed was shocking at times. Seriously, I literally felt a cold shiver run down my body when I got done eating lunch and saw that my scum partner had been lynched without me getting a chance to hop on that wagon. I would have bussed him if I'd actually had the chance time wise to do so.

Finally, an obligatory: GO SCUM TEAM!

[geekalicious]

I think calling Snow_Bunny "nobody" may have been part of what did you in, Netopalis.

[geekalicious]

Haha, yeah, but I love puns, and it took me FOREVER to figure out. Seriously, it was like 3 days later in class when I finally went "Ooooooh...."

[geekalicious]

I don't recall if you said why in the thread, but why did you pick Netopalis for your investigation, Snow_Bunny? It was a great choice; I'm just wondering what about him really struck you as investigation worthy.

I'm just really enthused to have actually won this game... This is only the second game of mafia I've ever played, and my first as scum.