Open 177 (Monks and Masons) - Game Over.

[ODDin]

Vote: Wulfy

He's gotta be a werewolf with this username.

[ODDin]

Scien: Actually, I've missed that. Not confirming is a null tell IMO, though.

[ODDin]

Well well, out of the RVS already.

On the farside / Scien exchange:
It seems to me farside is being extremely and overly aggressive. The argument against Scien does have a point, but it's not an overly strong point. Yes, it raises an eyebrow that he decided not to push it a bit further to get out of the RVS - but nothing more than that. It's a very, very weak scum tell at best. farside is, IMO, blowing it completely out of proportion.
She's also getting "royally pissed" over this, and I'm not sure why that is. I mean, really, headdesk over that?
It's also giving me a tunneling vibe. She's practically disregarded all other players during that exchange.

Why would she do that? I have an idea:

I notice that very few scum now how to be aggressive in the beginning of the game. They either followers, or they hem and haw or backtrack or make wishy washy comments. I don't go after the agressive person. typically scum watches, waits and doesn't do much else.

Could well be read as: look how extremely and terribly aggressive I'm being right now. Ergo: I'm not scum.

And my personal recent reference of scum being extremely aggressive at the start of the game: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11779 (DNW, scum, attacking Starbuck, also scum, very aggressively in the early stages of the game)

So, I'm currently getting scummy vibes from farside, thus,

unvote, vote: farside

Other thing of note: in posts 26 and 27, Wulfy and maemuki continue playing randomly even though we're clearly out of the RVS by that point. Especially alarming is Maemuki, who's also still voting for herself.

[ODDin]

I was asked from scien why I felt him not being aggressive was bad and I was answering the question. I get the impression reading your comments that you didn't read the exchange between us at all.

I have read the exchange well enough, thank you, and yes, I know this comment was triggered by you answering a question. However, it feels to me you used it to say "look here, look here, I'm not scum." It's a gut feeling, I feel like you, umm, "overexplained" with this post.

The statement of being "royally pissed" was used to describe something else, namely the back and forth between Farside and Scien. Because what they are discussing the whole time is basically the same thing.
As for the head desk, do you disagree that when somebody points out something he sees as a possible lead, but doesn't persue it, deserves a head desk or something like that or not?

Not really, no. It's something to note, it may even be something to vote over to start discussion early in the day. It's not something to be annoyed over so much. farside seems overly emotional over this. Reading over the whole exchange makes me wanna go "jeez, come down..."

Not liking this. There's barely any discussion besides the arguments between Scien and Farside. Heck, even you (ODDin) mentioned one thing besides this discussion.

That's why I said "tunneling vibe". It's not strictly tunneling at this point, due to the lack of much else to talk about.

Also, I don't think my quote of farside is twisting her words. All I said is what I felt when I read that (yes, I felt that even though knew it technically came as a reply to a question on the subject). That's what I felt, so I wanted to let the town know I feel that. I'm not saying I'm certain this is the case, but people need to be aware that that post by farside might have had an ulterior motive, so to speak.

[ODDin]

farside: I voted for you on the 3rd page of the first day of the game, with no other votes against you. At this stage, I don't see my vote as expressing "I want you lynched at the end of this day". It's meant to pressure you. It's there so I can analyse the way you and others react to it. At the moment, I don't see anyone at all I want to actually lynch - all current arguments are pretty weak, mine included.

As for Scien's reactions, they seem pretty honest. I didn't notice excessive nervousness and signs of cracking in his posts.
Yes, your argument against him does have merit. However, I don't feel his words changed the status of the argument. He reacted pretty much the way I'd expect him to react, be he town (who made a small mistake) or scum (that doesn't crack that easily).
I was at first slightly bothered by his analysis of what would have happened had he done otherwise, but when I thought about it, it does make sense in the context of the questions he's been asked.
That's why I didn't comment on his posts.

Meta on you being emotional and aggressive as town will certainly help. If this is indeed a matter of playstyle , my suspicion of you will drop. As I've said, my perception is somewhat coloured by a recent game where scum acted in a way quite similar to yours here (bussing their scumpartner, actually, but considering that right now is too big a logical leap).

[ODDin]

farside - of course I expect you to defend. I was replying to post 97, where you basically said that I voted you over a very weak argument. Yes, it's weak, but mind you, I don't think you can hold that against me at this point in the game. The beginning of the day is a good time to be voting and pressuring over all sorts of things to stir things up and get healthy discussion. You accused Scien of *not* doing that, after all.

[ODDin]

(Just noticed that I'm saying more or less the same thing as RB is saying right above me. An interesting pattern there?)

[ODDin]

Something seems contradictory here.

What?

*bites* You place me in a basket with someone I'm attacking? Did you even read my post or see the first line of my statement (involving dog acting) and just ignore it?

FoS at the Octopus.

There wasn't much to "read" in that post. All it said was:

*barks*
Submited:

Votes ugly bird Maemuki

You wanna tell that doesn't look like a random vote? I'm not saying you're playing randomly right now. I'm just saying that that post was a random vote (or seemed very much like a random vote, seeing that it wasn't backed up by any argument, and there weren't any arguments on Maemuki for you to follow).

Also, it's not just an octopus, it's Cthulhu Ninja Zombie. Have resepct.

[ODDin]

First of all, something I forgot to reply to earlier:

In post 83, farside said:

The head desk was actually because of YJ and Maemuki exchange. It made me want to cry. Also note I'm very sarcastic person and it's just my nature to be sarcastic.

But there were 2 headdesks in post 23, one of them regarding Scien. Here:

I almost felt like smacking my head on my desk reading the exchange between YJ and Maemuki. Anyone care to explain if there is a past relationship between these two because frankly goofiness likes this just gives me a bad taste.
Next:

Vote: Hewitt

Why hello there.

Although I don't know what to think about the Wulfy not confirming thing, or the person going after him without mentioning this. No really, its a curiosity, and I haven't made up my mind if it actually means anything >.<

Wow this is so weak. I mean really? Seriously you have a good thought and you feel like random voting?!!!

*smacks head on desk*

I feel better. Scien I don't get it. Your not being aggressive on this, your sitting back and just bringing it up but you don't want to press on it.

*alert*
*alert*
*alert*

unvote:
Vote: Scien

The only time I see people touch on a possible scummy thing and back off our typically scum. Your non aggression seems like something I see when people (scum) want to make a weak case but don't want to be agressive in it as it might look weak when it is.

(Second headdesk bolded)
So that's what I was referring to earlier.
I understand it's sarcastic (and I realise you didn't, I hope, actually smck your head on your desk), but it still expresses more agitation than I'd expect.

On the contrary, well kind of, I am currently getting a weird vibe from it for different reasons. I find it hard to believe that anyone could be on my side now after all the spinning that has happened, and ODDin seems to be defending me... I think that is strange.

I did not defend you. What I said was that what you said didn't change my standing regarding the argument against you, and thus I didn't comment on it. Farside's argument against you does have a point. Everything you said in reaction to it didn't change my opinion on it - it didn't make me feel "that's a good defence, I agree with Scien now", and it also didn't make me feel "Scien is nervous and cracking like scum, his words make me more suspicious of him".

For the record, me voting for farside doesn't mean I mean I find her initial argument against Scien technically wrong. Seeing we have two different scum groups, you can have scum attacking scum even without bussing.

Also, I do think that pressuring using relatively weak arguments in the beginning of the game is acceptable. I'm doing it myself.

@Wulfy: What I'm saying is, by the time you random voted Maemuki, the game was already well out of the RVS. Reading farside's argument against Scien and saying something about it doesn't seem like that hard a thing to do...

Anybody can make a tl;dr version of Scien's posts? There's no way I'll read all that. I'm too lazy.

I'm not sure how comfortable I am with a player who doesn't read everything in the game. It's mafia. We post a lot here. This isn't even close to really big walls of texts.


Also, really high levels of obtuseness with not understanding what EB is saying. Seriously people, it's not that hard.


Scien does contradict himself somewhat in this: at first he said he wasn't sure if his observations on Wulfy and myself meant anything. "Not being sure" means allowing the possibility that it does, in fact, mean something. Later he says he knew for certain it didn't mean anything and knew it weren't scum tells.


Nikanor: not reading things is bad. You're expected to read everything in the game. If you don't consider it fun, you shouldn't be playing the game.


@Farside: You've ignored my request for meta of you being emotional and getting annoyed and agitated over arguments.
You've also mostly ignored both myself and EB when we said that you were accusing us for doing what you accused Scien of not doing. You responded to EB only to the extent of saying "I don't get what you're saying".
What's up with that?


Also, I do find FoSs useful. They concisely explain your standing and opinion on people.

[ODDin]

I would jokingly say go looking at any game with me and empking but I don't think you have a sense of humor.

Ouch.

[ODDin]

Is there anybody out there that disagrees with this?

You see, to apply pressure you need to make clear that you're ready to lynch, sure. That said, you might pressure somebody without intending to lead it all the way to the lynch just there. Not every vote means that if everybody else votes right at that moment for that person you're going to be satisfied.
There is such a thing as "pressure votes", and they are being used extensively, whether you like it or not.

[ODDin]

Fuzzyman, while discussion of cons and pros of pressure votes is generally valid, you're contributing painfully little to the game overall, and such a discussion isn't, IMHO, the most important thing to talk about right now (unless you have some immediate practical uses for the discussion, in which case, do enlighten us). It seems like you're trying to do as little as possible. Your posts are very short, provide little actual info, and mostly discuss tangential issues.

This is not to say you're the biggest offender in the not-contributing department. Yank is the prime offender, I think, and he's followed by hewitt and YJ (although YJ did acknowledge this and said he was gone and expressed intention to catch up, so he's getting the benefit of doubt right now).

So, more content please. Answering these questions can be nice:

1) What do you think about the arguments against Scien? Do you think they are have merit? Do you suspect Scien for being scum based on them?
2) What do you think about farside and her behaviour in that exchange?
3) Who do you find most scummy? Why?

[ODDin]

If you think farside is the most scummy person, why aren't you voting for her? You haven't voted at all, in fact. Why is that?

Also, earlier you said you dislike those voting for farside - yet you find her the scummiest person yourself. If so, shouldn't it make sense to you that others also find her the scummiest person and thus vote for her? She's only got 2 votes on her, that's hardly dangerous territory or a serious bandwagon.

[ODDin]

Farside has stated that this is natural behaviour from her. Have you checked if this is true? If not, why?

Not yet, because I was busy with real life stuff and didn't have the time to yet. I will, though.

Then why point it out?

I was drawing attention to what might be the beginning of a trend. It seems like laying the groundwork for tunneling, in a way. I wanted the town to be aware of that, should it become more serious in the future.

Question: What's your impression of scum in your games? Are they mostly passive or mostly aggressive?

I don't have that many games behind my belt, frankly, but I've seen both. I've seen lurking scum and I've seen very active and aggressive scum. I really can't say which I've encountered more.

ODDin, why point out that your vote against Farside was a pressure vote?

I think I said so in reply to farside's accusations of me pushing for a lynch over a weak argument, or maybe accusations by hewitt for being opportunistic, or both. I said it in defence of myself, basically, to explain that this vote is not, per se, "pushing for a lynch".

farside - of course I expect you to defend. I was replying to post 97, where you basically said that I voted you over a very weak argument. Yes, it's weak, but mind you, I don't think you can hold that against me at this point in the game. The beginning of the day is a good time to be voting and pressuring over all sorts of things to stir things up and get healthy discussion. You accused Scien of *not* doing that, after all.

And it was you who stated this about what Farside did:

On the farside / Scien exchange:
It seems to me farside is being extremely and overly aggressive. The argument against Scien does have a point, but it's not an overly strong point. Yes, it raises an eyebrow that he decided not to push it a bit further to get out of the RVS - but nothing more than that. It's a very, very weak scum tell at best. farside is, IMO, blowing it completely out of proportion.

But in the first quote, it seems you agreed with Farside.

I don't see your point. I read these two posts by me, and I don't see any contradiction. I do think her argument has merit. At the same time, I don't think it has enough merit to get all that excited and agitated over as she did. All the while I myself am currently voting based on a relatively weak argument - which is, basically, what she accused Scien of not doing.

[ODDin]

I need to do a small reread, but in the meanwhile I'll answer to something:

That's a pretty silly statement. Any vote on a player, regardless of intention, is pushing farther and farther towards a lynch because you can't control other players' actions and a pile-on isn't unheard of. Any vote on any player is always a push for a lynch.

I disagree. "Pushing for a lynch" means not only voting, but also actively advocating that you believe a certain person should, in fact, be lynched, and that it's the good and smart thing to do. It's not the same as voting.
It's a theory thing, though, regarding what implications and underlining meanings votes have or haven't.

[ODDin]

The massive headache Vote Count

Scien: ZazieR
Farside22: ODDin, YankCane
Fuzzyman: ElectricBadger, Wulfy
Hewitt: Scien
YamiJoey: Nikanor
ODDin: Farside22

Not Voting: hewitt, Fuzzyman, Maemuki, YamiJoey

For now.

unvote:
vote: Oddin

Ladies and gentlemen, OMGUS.

[ODDin]

Yeah, like you'd say "I vote ODDin because he voted me". You voted me because of the argument I laid out against you. This certainly makes it feel like OMGUS. OMGUS means that I suspect that the true reason behind your vote isn't the one you've stated - and I do.

Other than that:
1) This is hardly new material. You commented on this argument long ago, and nothing new was said about it in quite some time. Why did you vote for me only now?

2) What you're doing is hypocritical. Earlier, you've voted Scien for not pushing a weak case. Now you're voting me because I did push a weak case.

3) This is the second time now you're accusing me of not reading things, which feels like you attempting to invalidate my arguments. I am reading what you're saying, and I know what's going on. When I say something, it means I think so even if other things have been said on the subject matter - that is, it means I think you're lying.

[ODDin]

Finds scien's reaction town. I keep feeling there is a pairing here which really struck me with scien's first comment to now this one.

I never, ever, said i think Scien is town. All I said was that his reaction to the argument didn't make me feel he's more (or less) scummy. I said this in post 151, although I think it should've been clear even before that. I also said several times that farside's argument against Scien has a point - that is, I think it gives Scien scum points, albeit not much.
So who's twisting whose words?

I also explained the OMGUS thing. No decently experienced scum votes without giving any arguments at all. OMGUS helps scum take the heat off themselves by turning the attack towards the one who's attacked them. It's usually pretty difficult for people to simultaneously suspect two people who are both attacking each other (although in this game, it might actually mean they're both scum without any busses involved, but that's a different point).
So, when a decently experienced scum undertakes OMGUS, one would expect him to fabricate an argument to support it.
You getting all that edgy over me saying it's OMGUS only strengthens my suspicion. I'd expect town to react a bit more calmly to accusations, really. After all, if you're town then you know you're town, and truth works in your favour. Also, town tend to more readily acknowledge when arguments against them have basic merit, and don't feverishly try to counter every single accusation being thrown in their general direction.

[ODDin]

One thing you say about me is true, however - I did focus on you a bit too much lately. I have been planning a reread to repair that for some time now, I just never find the time with all sorts of stuff I need to do. I hope I can get to this soon.

[ODDin]

*facepalm*

He reacted pretty much the way I'd expect him to react, be he town or scum.

Read the sentence. I removed the parantheses to make it easier for you. Now read it again. Now understand what it says. Thank you.

[ODDin]

The Nothings Changed Vote Count

Scien: ZazieR
Farside22: ODDin, YankCane
Fuzzyman: ElectricBadger, Wulfy
Hewitt: Scien
YamiJoey: Nikanor
ODDin: Farside22

Not Voting: hewitt, Fuzzyman, Maemuki, YamiJoey

... What?
What has my vote on you has to do with my opinion on Scien? Suspecting you doesn't prevent me from thinking your arguments are correct - if only for the fact that you and Scien can be a mafia goon and a werewolf for all I know.

[ODDin]

My original vote on you was based on two things:
1) You were far too annoyed and edgy over what seemed to be a not so strong argument. (It's not the argument itself which bothers me - it's the way you handled the discussion around it.)
2) One of your posts made me feel like you're trying to implicitly show how oh-very-town you are.

The first things pends me reading the game you provided - no, I haven't yet, for the same reason I didn't reread this game yet although I want to; too little free time.

I have some other issues against you which have appeared later.
1) Your inconsistency regarding the usage of weak cases (you accuse Scien because he didn't, you accuse others because they did).
2) What I suspect to be OMGUS.


Regarding Scien, my current case would consist of your original argument: he didn't push a weak case and preferred to stay in the RVS, which is bad for town. I think it is a scum-tell, although a pretty weak one.

[ODDin]

Because I explained to someone why I find their nonagression scummy that makes is sound like I'm so towny? That makes no sense.

I think I've explained this several times already. You explained why scum aren't aggressive in games - a thing I don't really agree with, as I've seen scum playing aggressively in games - in a way that made me feel like you're attempting to imply "look, I'm playing exactly in the way in which, as I say, scum don't play". It's an interpretation. What you said could've been said in many ways, and from the way you worded it, it makes me feel like you were trying to get across the point of "look how town I am".
No, it's not something I'm 100% sure of - I can't get inside your brain to find out what you really meant. However, when I read that post - although I knew exactly in which context it has appeared - I have immediately felt that you were trying to paint yourself town with it.
It is up to the rest of the people to decide for themselves whether they feel the same way about that post or not.

I just made a huge post in which I show how I find you scummy. So far there is only 1 you really brought up to defend which I missed the scum part.

I've already answered to that huge post several times. Here above I've answered to a part of it again. Your post is mostly based around me twisting your words. I don't understand how saying "I think farside is lying" or "I think farside has ulterior motives" is called twisting your words. I don't say you said something else. I said that I *think* you *mean* something else, instead of or in addition to what you've actually said.
It's not something I can 100% prove. However, it is known that scum lie and have ulterior motives. So, obviously, in my attempt to catch scum I attempt to understand whether somebody is lying or is driven by ulterior motives in saying certain things.

Also I note it took me asking you to put your thoughts on scien and his actions to do so again it bothered me that you seem to neglect his actions.

Wrong. I have said multiple times already that I think your argument on Scien is correct (I've explicitly said it has merit and that you have a point). When somebody says "X is scummy because of argument Y", and then I say "I think argument Y is correct" - don't you think it means I think X is scummy?
And once again, I don't neglect his actions. I said that his words didn't make me change my opinion on him - they didn't give him, in my eyes, neither scum points nor town points.

[ODDin]

I won't be able to post until Thursday evening, at which point I'll do my best to finally read farside's meta and reread the game to get a better look at things. Sorry about that.

[ODDin]

By some luck I managed to glean some time to reread the second half of the game and say some things. (Quite a lot, as it turned out. Oh well, that was certainly more fun than my math assignment... )

1) I noticed a worrying thing about hewitt. He's acting very cautiously, he says he doesn't want to vote until he's certain that someone should be lynched. All the while he says he feels there's nothing to comment on and that the farside/scien discussion hurt the game. He must have realised that good discussion and strong arguments won't just come out of the underbrush singing songs. They need to be made. If he's town, then it's in his best interest to try to get better arguments. Yet he's not doing such an effort. Fine, he's reluctant to use his vote for that end (although it could've been useful, I think) - but how about asking questions? He says he finds farside scummiest, but he doesn't question her, he doesn't try to push her, pin her down, anything of the sort, to get better arguments. He's not really pressing anyone else either. He seems content enough sitting in the corner.

2) At one point Fuzzy said he's going to reply to my questions just after he got an answer from farside. While the significance and relevance of these questions is lower now, it's still worthy to note that he didn't, actually, answer them at any point.

3)

I notice that very few scum now how to be aggressive in the beginning of the game. They either followers, or they hem and haw or backtrack or make wishy washy comments. I don't go after the agressive person. typically scum watches, waits and doesn't do much else.

I can see you haven't played in a while. In other words, this is totally, totally wrong. I see overaggressive scum more than I see overaggressive town.

Why did you remember to say this only now? That comment hung there for a pretty long time now. Why didn't you say it was wrong before?

4) Post 235 by Nik and the ensuing discussion is disturbing me quite a bit. He's answering instead of me for things directed specifically at me and defending me. This looks an awful lot like buddying.
It's okay if you're town and think farside's arguments against me are wrong - but I'd expect you to wait for me to answer before saying anything. Otherwise, you're basically handing me a defence. What if I'm scum and these statements by farside would've tripped me and caused me to slip up?
This is very poor scumhunting there.

5)

Side note: pends should be "pings" write[sic]?
1. Um...is this a claim that being angry over details is scummy? Wouldn't then every minamalist who gets angry be scum? This point is pathetic.
2. Wait...so you're suggesting town wouldn't make an attempt to prove they are town? Are you saying town posts would be inherently scummier than scum posts? Why do I see a too townie argument forming...

3-1. Would you please point that double standard out with citations or examples?
4-2. ...Omgus argument doesn't exist...
Nvrmind on 3-1, Farside admitted it, so I have noted that. Her excuse of "not reading back [well enough]" doesn't fly with me.

"pend" is a wrong usage of the verb. Read it as "awaits" - remains hanging until I get down to actually read that meta.
Now, to the point(s).
1. I feel that being overly agitated and annoyed over small and not so significant arguments is scummy. This is partly because I feel one wouldn't normally get so agitated over it, making me feel the agitation might be artificial and not genuine.
2. Town don't generally feel the need to assert their towniness without provocation, and don't implicitly or explicitly say "I'm town, I'm town" when it isn't called for. This isn't a "too towny" argument - far from it. There's a huge difference between "looking very townie" and "consciously trying to look very townie".

Both of these arguments were brought up by me long ago. Where were you?

4-2. I really don't get you people. Do you actually expect sombody with minimal brain to say "OMG you suck you voted for me so I'm gonna vote for you"? When scum want to vote for somebody for reasons which aren't exactly pro-town, they at least try to manufacture arguments to mask their real intention. If scum wouldn't lie and would say their reasons explicitly, life would be much easier. Sadly, they don't. Sometimes they lie. These lies may include them saying they vote someone for certain arguments which aren't, in fact, the real reason for the vote. If I'm scum and I think to myself, "hmm, I need to attack X for evil scummy reasons a, b, c", then I sit down and think "hmm, what arguments can I make up to mask my real reasons?". So, yes, I think it's perfectly valid for me to say that I think farside is doing exactly that. Naturally, it's a matter of interpretation. I think farside is lying. It's a read I get on her.


6) Where did Zazie go? And I'll join the line in wanting to hear why he's voting scien. If he stated a reason, I missed it.


7) Also, farside, you continuing to call what I did "twisting your words" is utterly ridiculous. If you think it's so obvious that you didn't mean what I say you meant - then let the damn thing lie! If it's obvious that I'm full of shit, you don't need to show it to everyone. Everyone will see it for themselves and think "why is ODDin saying farside is lying? It's so obvious she didn't lie. There's no way he could actually think that, he must have consciously fabricated it."
I'm in my right to think you have ulterior motives and hidden messages in your posts, and I'm certainly in my right to think you're lying. Saying over and over again "but I said it meant something else" doesn't change the fact that I think you're lying - I KNOW what you said. That's why I call it a LIE, because I think what you SAY isn't what you REALLY THINK.
I mean, you're not giving any arguments to show you weren't lying. You just keep saying "I didn't lie because I said I didn't lie so that must be true".

8)

I see it this way. I was asked a question, i aswered the question. Another player pulls that answer out and automatically pulls the "look at me I'm aggressive I must be scum/town" comment out which is not the case in my mind all I did was anwser a question asked to me.

As it has been pointed out it could be interputted either way but he is taking the I must be scum approach which I find an interperuptation and not actual scum hunting and hence scummy.

Again, I know it came in the context of answering a question. However, from the way it was worded, it made me feel like you're trying to get a certain point across which wasn't really part of strictly answering the question. This is actually the first thing I thought of when I read that (although you are, of course, free to think I'm lying - and I might be, for all you know, of course.)
Since I thought it was of importance to town to know of such a possibility, I felt it is useful to mention it. Why so? Because if a town player reads it and thinks "no, I think ODDin is wrong here, farside is obviously honest here", then no harm was done. However, there's a possibility that a player would come along and think "hey, I think ODDin is right, it does feel that way, and I didn't see it myself". It isn't, on its own, a terribly strong argument - because I can't, at this point, be sure that you're lying. It's a possibility to keep in mind. And it was important, IMO, for the rest of the town to be aware of the possibility. Knowing a new option is never a bad thing. People were given brains to decide for themselves whether that option is reasonable or not.

Also, I am not taking the "you must be scum approach". I'm taking the "you might be scum for all I know and this here could be a scummy thing to do" approach, which I take for everyone, naturally.

You say it's not scumhunting? Fine. Think so if you wish. In my personal opinion I'm doing quite enough scumhunting here.

9) Once again I would like you to pay attention how farside is making much ado about nothing. The whole issue of me twisting her words is in serious danger of becoming another scien/farside thing (scien/ODDin this time), and I'm not the one to blame for that. She's taking a small thing and runs with it like it's the best argument on earth.
You asked me what pressure votes are good for? This. My vote, made over a relatively weak argument (and for crying out loud, I've admitted to it being weak several times now) led to a huge case on me by farside. Suddenly I'm public enemy number one. I would most certainly expect town to react a LOT more calmly to this.

[ODDin]

[1]When a comment like I made can be skewed to be a interptation of hey look I'm agressive so I must be town or scum and you point to it as scum while saying all my points I made had merit but you find my aggression scummy because of another game I find you not to be scum hunting but using excuses to buy a vote.
Finally I was asked to make as case I was explain to explain comments I made and I did as such. [2]Why do you seem to call it much ado about nothing when others ask should I just sit there and say nothing as 4 others have done so far?

[1]"All of your points" is cute, but you only really had a single pretty weak point - the original accusation of Scien. Plus, as I've already said, the fact alone that you bring up a point which I find valid doesn't mean you're less scummy in my eyes. Given the two scum factions, scum can be actively and efficiently scumhunting.
Also, the argument isn't based on a different game. Asserting one's towniness without provocation is a scum-tell. The question at hand is whether your post on aggressive scum was, in fact, implied assertion of your towniness or not. All I said is that it might be. No other games involved.

[2]You're raising a lot of dust over pretty small issues - scien's first vote and my comment your post. I'm not saying you shouldn't have commented at all, I'm saying that there's no reason to make such a big deal out of it. Look what the argument with scien did - half the people haven't even read it and hewitt claims to not post much due to it (which means, it's providing a defence for potential lurkers).
Zazie also commented on my post, and he also apparently thought it was far-fetched and improbable. But he didn't make it the crux of his posts and didn't turn it into a huge issue. That's how I expect it to be handled. I can perfectly understand if people think it's too far-fetched. I myself am not claiming it's that important. It's you who are making a big deal out of it - not me.

That said, ODD is definitely scum. Farside/Scien cannot be in the same faction, but could still both be scum.

VOTE:ODDin

Any reasons, or are you just happy to jump on a possible bandwagon?

[ODDin]

I was around.

And yet you didn't bother to say anything until it was dug up by others and became the crux of the discussion. Interesting.

4. For your argument to be legitimate, you would have to actually go back and prove that no reasons exists (or are not arbitrarily fabricated) so that you can reason that it is truly an OMGUS vote. Damn, you think people would learn this in novice games.

It is impossible to prove somebody is lying in most situations. Yhere are cases when the lies are obvious and happen in the thread itself, but that's a minority. Most of the time whether somebody is lying is a matter of interpretation based on psychology and other things.
I cannot prove it and it is ridiculous to ask me to. So, I'm in my right to suspect somebody for using OMGUS without being able to technically PROVE it.
You'd think they'd learn this in newbie games. Or, at the place you learn the case might be, in basic understanding of the concepts of proof, logic and lies.

Yes, I think the arguments farside made against me are fabricated and not genuine. Why?
1) They were around for a long time, but she only used them to actually vote for me much later.
2) She's giving my arguments more importance than I am giving them. I do not claim my original argument against her was really strong - I admitted it was weak and based on lots of interpretation. She, however, accuses me based on it as if I've used it to push against her much more seriously. If I assume she does understand my take on my own arguments, and seeing that she talks about them as if I give them much more importance than I actually do, I figure she must be using them as a means to an end.

Riceball - you still didn't explain your reasons for voting me.

[ODDin]

Scien - do you feel fuzzy did less than, say, Maemuki? Yank and YJ also participated very little prior to being replaced. Do you think this is indicative of anything?

Also, there are some arguments on Fuzzy out there which aren't about his inactivity. farside has accused him of buddying me, for instance. Do you agree with that? Either way, why didn't you mention it? Don't you think it's important to address all arguments on the one you're voting for?

[ODDin]

If you find the discussions going on in the game boring and uninteresting - start new ones! I can understand, even if not personally agree to, your desire to avoid actually voting. But if you're not voting, you should attempt to stir things up in some other way. Which you aren't really doing.

[ODDin]

My previous post was mainly aimed at your behaviour previously - you earlier said you find the discussions boring but preferred not to vote.

Also, saying that you're afraid scum my use your arguments against you is... a strange thing to say. If you have good arguments, share them. If somebody uses a good argument against you, then it's scummy of them, and that's an argument against them, not you.
Avoiding to share useful and important information - especially when you claim yourself that the game is boring and isn't going anywhere much - is, IMHO, scummy. If everybody doesn't share there arguments in fear of the arguments being turned against them by scum, the game won't move anywhere.

As town, you're not supposed to make things a guessing game. You're supposed to make it easier for town to understand your arguments - so that they can analyse you more easily (and if you're town, that's a good thing for you) and so they can see whether they agree to those arguments themselves.

Even if you think your arguments aren't new, sharing them will at least make it clear what you think - what you agree with, what you don't agree with, etc. Later on in the game, it will help us analyse things since we'll know what you thought about people.

So basically, you're deliberately withholding information to protect your own hide.

FoS: hewitt

[ODDin]

Riceball, still you fail to present any arguments whatsoever as to why I am scummy in your eyes, and the only argument you presented against Fuzzy was that he's using appeal to emotion (is that the sole reason you think he's scum?)

I guess it's just too hard for you to fabricate arguments, so you just decided to not even try, ay? Tough luck.

[ODDin]

Fuzzy was lurking until he started gathering votes. Then pulls out an AtE, which is a huge scumtell. ODD is scum for his clear and blatant coaching of Fuzzy, and thanks for continuing to confirm it with your defense of him.

1) Show me where I was coaching Fuzzy.
2) Is me coaching scum the only reason you find me scum?
3) I am defending Fuzzy... where, exactly? I didn't know that asking somebody to give a reason to calling somebody scum is called defending.

Sorry? It's nice for you to acknowledge that I am scumhunting and not falsescumhunting, though.

What I mean is, you've missed a good opportunity to potentially catch me, if I'm scum. And you don't know whether I'm scum or not. For all you know, I may be scum - by answering my arguments instead of me, you're potentially giving me a good defense which might not have thought of (if, indeed, I'm scum, and have to fabricate my defense instead of simply saying the truth).

[ODDin]

EBWOP: 2) Is me coaching Fuzzy the only reason you find me scum?

[ODDin]

This is a misrepresentation. Farside's comment was a response to a question, not an unprovoked claim. Although extrapolation from it is interesting, it's largely WIFOM; pushing it this hard as a scum tell is bad. Condemning farside for being too aggressive countering your hard push of a weak argument is hypocrisy.

What I'm saying is that it can be a veiled assertion of towniness.
Also, the whole point is that I was not pushing it as a scum tell. Farside reacted as if I had, centering the discussion around it, thus making it look as if I pushed it so hard. Also, I'm not condemning her for being too aggressive. It's the completely skewed importance she's giving to things that's disturbing me.

That being said,

unvote, vote: Riceball

My vote on farside has completed its purpose and its job is done at the moment. Farside is still high on my scumdar, but heck, at least she's playing the game.

[ODDin]

Umm, before we continue this I think I'd want a clarification from Haylen on the setup (or for her to say that she explicitly doesn't want to say anything else, which is also okay, of course.)

So,

@mod: can you shed some light on the probabilities and the way the specific setup was selected?

[ODDin]

On a different note, did I miss something regarding Zazie? His last post is almost two weeks old...

[ODDin]

And another tangential: Riceball, pardon the question, but are you a he or a she?

[ODDin]

Well, I guess I'll be referring to you as "it", then.

[ODDin]

I’m not sure I see the relevance of this – it doesn’t seem to be even remotely connected? Can you explain how it matters? Is it just so you can call him/her a him or a her?

It's not connected to the game per se, that's why I said it's tangential. I just want to know how to refer to somebody in third person. I know that people can be annoyed if they're referred to as being of the wrong gender, so I prefer to ask. That's all.

[ODDin]

Gah, this setup discussion is drowning all other discussion. It allows people post and discuss something seemingly relevant without actually participating in the real game.

Scien, you still haven't really said what you think about the argument between farside and myself.

Also, RBT, can you give us detailed and organised cases on myself and Fuzzy, containing ALL of your reasons for thinking that we are scum, individually and together? And if you're not intending to do so, can you explain why you're not intending to do so, and why you think it helps the town for you to accuse people without presenting your arguments against them?

[ODDin]

To be frank, when hewitt said he was a mason with you and you didn't say it wasn't so, one could logically assume you that you've implicitly confirmed that the claim was true.
Mostly because if you weren't a mason with hewitt, then you would have every reason to say that he's lying and vote for him (unless, of course, you're his scumpartner and this claim was a part of your plan).

[ODDin]

Well, farside presented a case against me. I'd be happy if you said whether you agree with it or not (and why).

[ODDin]

I want everybody's opinion, not only yours. You happened to catch my eye because you were posting at the moment, but haven't really said anything on this issue. It also looked as if you might be trying to use the discussion on the setup to avoid discussing other matters.

Why am I interested in your opinion? Mostly because I want to have as much info as I can as we continue the game. I've often seen people conveniently avoiding to comment on important issues, and then later in the game, after some deaths and the like, you try to reread the game - and find out they haven't really said anything on the subject. For instance, if farside flips scum at any point in the game and you will be alive, I will reread the game to try and understand how you interacted with her.
Plus, the more info I have, the better I can catch scum, ay?

In this light, @everyone who hasn't said so yet:
1) What do you think of farside's case against me?
2) Who do think is most scummy? Why?

[ODDin]

Also, on the matter itself: I can agree with many of your points. Indeed, my case was based on many assumptions which aren't really provable at this point. It was, as it were, a pressure case - I held to it for a bit longer than I've myself expected, but I was driving a knowingly weak case in an attempt to get to something.
And yes, I know that saying it's a pressure vote removes the pressure. I just felt the need to defend myself, and I don't usually lie as town - if I'm specifically questioned on my motives, I will say them. Also, I think it worked rather well nevertheless

[ODDin]

No-lynch? Seriously?

[ODDin]

You would prefer to have a no-lynch?

From your post, I've understood

you

wanted a no-lynch.

Allow me to quote that post:

Who is your deadline vote?

Anybody to impede a no-lynch. Seriously.

That is, you want to lynch people who want to impede a no-lynch. Which, the way I understand it, means you do want a no-lynch.

So, if you want a no-lynch, please explain why.
If you don't want a no-lynch, than please explain what that post mean, and say whom you're intending to vote (and why).

[ODDin]

Ah, got you. Forget what I said then.

[ODDin]

When I think about it, I'm not sure I like the fact that Mae is likely going to get away with voting without actually having any opinion on the one she's voting for - she just wants to prevent a no-lynch.
Preventing no-lynches is good and all, but how about some actual opinions? Personally, I don't think I understand whom you find scummy at the moment. Who are your top suspects? If the decision for whom to lynch was entirely in your hands, whom would you choose?
And if you haven't got an opinion - how come?

[ODDin]

Ah?

[ODDin]

Hello there xofelf and welcome to the game!

Will reread as well as soon as I get the time.

[ODDin]

I wish to apologize, I've caught a pretty bad cold yesterday... I'll try to catch up and do all then necessary rereading ASAP.

[ODDin]

First of all, hello there Benmage. Please DON'T post before you read your role PM. It can give you an advantage if you're scum (I did it myself without realising the consequences not too long ago).

Back to the game itself.

1) I didn't really have time to read hewitt's case on EB yesterday. It's pretty interesting, but IMHO a bit too dependant on interpretation. I can see his play as town play well enough. That being said, EB only responded to the farside/scien part of the accusations. There were also quotes regarding other posts by him, which he didn't address.

2) I think hewitt is trying too hard to show that EB is manipulative to day. He's blowing EB's posts out of proportion, EB's questions are mostly valid.

3) hewitt: as EB and Mae have already asked - why did you think RBT's case was crap? I don't remember anything from you yesterday saying that the case on RBT was crap in your opinion. If a case is crappy, you should say so.

I wasn't there so much near the end of the lynch period and if I had been I probably would've said something then instead of just pushing who I wanted to be lynched.

We can't know that, and you can't prove that - just like what you've said to Scien.

Sure, now you can say that you thought the case on RBT was crap. Yet yesterday you said nothing. Even if you answer the question and explain why you supposedly thought the case on RBt was crappy, we can't know whether you thought so or not. You basically avoided saying anything on RBT.

And for the record, I also didn't - and still don't - think that the case on RBT was crappy.

4) However, hewitt is attempting to avoid this by saying he doesn't want to be seen as scummy. Neat way to avoid answering a question. Basically, you answer to all questions by EB with "your questions are stupid and it's a trap". Well, perhaps I'm an idiot, but I would really want you to answer them.

5) I don't like it that Mae didn't really give any decent opinions yesterday. She joined in on the RBT wagon in the last minute, and that's about it. Disturbingly fence-sitting.

6) Almost forgot! I did actually read farside's meta. And yes, it does clear that point way-back-then of her being hot headed. Reading through her posts in the game she provided (where she was town), I see she was pretty agitated over stuff there too.

[ODDin]

? dont i want an advantage if i end up being scum...?

It's an unfair advantage which isn't part of the normal game rules. You're supposed to respect the game and not give yourself unfair advantages.
Seriously. Stop posting.

[ODDin]

hewitt: EB asked the following: "Did you ever try to stop the crappy and forced wagon? If so, please reference it...if not, please explain why. "
This is the same thing that Mae asked, and later myself: why didn't you say the wagon on RBT was crappy if you thought so. I can't see what's so wrong about a town player asking that. Moreover, I find it strange that you don't say Mae and myself are scummy for asking the same thing.

[ODDin]

It will take me some time to read everything Benmage wrote, but here are some responses to things directed to me:

So why did you VOTE: ?

Seriously? I think I've explained that several times already. I was pushing the issue of the "trying to look town", and then there were some other issues, but I think these were later in the game.

They [FoSs] dont explain shit anymore than saying someone is "scummy"/"acting scummy"

Preference, I guess. I like using FoSs. Of course, they should be backed up by stuff. But I find them helpful in gauging people's standing on various issues.

Word. Good point.. Terrible accidental bus tho.. You're buddy, EB, the claimed protagonist of lynch lurkers, hasnt mentioned them...tsk tsk.

I simply don't understand what you mean by this. Care to rephrase?

Asking 10 go nowhere questions isn't making you look town..you fail to followup on questions you ask anyways. If you actually want genuine responses where there can be a back n forth...dont ask so many.

I was trying to get the game out of the mud and understand what people think on various issues. I don't necessarily have to follow up on question immediately afterwards. But if farside/scien die at some point, the answers to these questions will be quite useful.

[ODDin]

Benmage: I can live with you thinking I'm scum. What disturbs me quite a bit is that you seem certain that hewitt is town. Why is that? I'll admit to not reading everything you said yet (I shall eventually, don't worry), so perhaps you've explained it and I didn't see it. But why are you being so certain that hewitt is town?

[ODDin]

its a shame you're [me] scum and hes [hewitt] town

That's a pretty damn strogn statement for an "early gut read".

[ODDin]

Holy hell, this thing is growing like insanely fast. I'll do my best to catch up completely, but it will take me some time...

[ODDin]

Hello people, unfortunately I have more work to do than I originally thought, which means I'm not sure I'll be able to properly read the most of today until, umm, Thursday or even Friday. I'll do my best to read bits and pieces here and there. To speed things up, I'll appreciate if people concisely post questions directed specifically at me.
If Haylen thinks this is too much inactivity from me, I'll understand if she wishes to replace me.

[ODDin]

Response to prod: Much like I said, I haven't got the time to properly catch up until Friday (maybe Thrusday evening if I'm lucky). If there are specific summarised questions to me concerning my previous play (that is, not my opinions on recent stuff, which I haven't really read yet), I can answer those.

[ODDin]

You know, you could help by saying youre case against me, so that I can try to reply. Voting for me isn't going to help me read faster or solve my exams...

[ODDin]

Urm, well, I still don't exactly understand the case against me, and you aren't really helping me here. With deadline close, it'd benefit everybody if you helped by giving me more time to discuss the case against me.

Without that, I'll try to answer to several things I remember Benmage bringing up against me, from what I did read of his posts.

1)

I have given a definition of "townie", which is similar to what I accused farside of doing.

There might be some fairness to this point, but calling it serious hypocrisy on my side is taking things out of context.
When I brought up this argument against farside, I said that it was mainly a gut feeling. It was a possible interpretation which popped into my mind as I read her post and I shard it. I then used it to push the case forward and see how people react. It was, however, a very weak argument - I've said so several times already. It's weak because it's very heavily based on interpretation. Yes, it *might* be that farside was trying to assert her towniness without any provocation. It might also be that she was townie who was saying these things in response to a specific question, which also makes sense.
I realise, and realised then, that it's not a seriously scummy thing to do.
When later I gave the "definition of townie play", I did so because it came naturally out of the discussion. Yes, the argument may be applied against me in the same fashion - and it will be just as weak as the argument I've applied to farside.
I never said I can't see a townie doing so. The fact that I did something similar myself only goes to show that I don't really find it too scummy.

2)

Scien also called himself townie, and I didn't say anything about that.

Yes, but he was attacked. The original argument discussed people asserting their towniness with no provocation. When you're attacked, it makes perfect sense to imply that you're town. You cannot defend without implying you're town - the whole point of defence is to attempt to convince people you're town.

[ODDin]

I said exactly when I will read the game. Tomorrow evening I come back home from an exam and start reading. Before that, I'm more busy reading about integrals.
Without catching up on more recent stuff, I'm suspicious of you, hewitt - I've already voiced these suspicions early D2. I also didn't much like EB, but to a lesser extent.

[ODDin]

The Very Late Vote count

ElectricBadger - Scien
Hewitt - ElectricBadger
ODDin - Hewitt, Farside22, Benmage

Not Voting: Nikanor, Maemuki, ODDin, XofElf.

Lots of love
Haylxxx

Your statements context was read as a point against farside. Yet it was shown to you she did so through discussion and being asked a question. You dont see the provocation there?

There's a difference between saying something which is relevant to the discussion and defending against an attack. farside wasn't attacked and wasn't accuse of being scummy. What I said was that I felt she used the question to assert her towniness - which wasn't necessary, seeing that she wasn't being attacked. That is, there are many ways to word the same thing, and I didn't really like the way she worded her answer, as I felt it had a certain scummy subtext. It was mostly "FYI everybody, farside may have an ulterior motive in this post", not "I am certain she has an ulterior motive, this is very scummy".
That was my reasoning back then and that is why I didn't consider this a point against Scien.

Your "RL" duties aren't keeping you from other spots on the site.

Well, if you already brought this up, yes, I am more active in another game, for two reasons:
1) It has a deadline tomorrow.
2) I don't have to catch up on about 9 pages to know what's going on there, because when this game grew like a mutated monster, that other game was getting very few new posts.

Also, if you really bother to check, you'll see that I said I'm going to be less active in that other game as well.

[ODDin]

Also, Benmage, any points against me that I've missed, or are these the only two?

[ODDin]

Scien's context seems under no greater scrutiny than the one Farside was in...perhaps you should relook.

Erm, what? Scien was under heavy accusation from farside. That was the whole beginning of D1. farside wasn't really being accused by anyone at that point.

Yeah i saw you make a similar statement...and then continue to play actively.

I really don't want to go into great detail about an ongoing game, it's poor tone. Again, I'm mostly active there because its deadline is much closer and I don't need to catch up on things I missed.

How long did it take you to answer the questions I had on you?? You were gone for a few days....you said you already read them...but today as votes return to you, you come in and start posting. What a total bunch of crap you are trying to pass by us.

The two points I've answered I saw with only a very brief skim. I wanted to delay answering them until I read the whole post that contained them, to see it in better light. Now, to try to move this along a bit, I attempted answering them based only on a very light skim.


Seeing the great demand for activity NOW, I'll do my best to read some things already today.

[ODDin]

hewitt: The Benmage walls and the discussion between farside and Scien gave birth to several pages of posts pretty damn quickly.

[ODDin]

The back n forth between farside and Scien was with farside on the offence and Scien on the defence. She was heavily attacking him, he was mostly busy defending. I think he did mildly accuse her back at some point in there, though I don't exactly remember right now. Still, the difference is pretty obvious. The distinction between attacker and defender is important here.

[ODDin]

hewitt: right now (that is, based on info from page 20 and earlier alone), you.
I've already said why I think you're scum earlier today. I think your reaction towards EB is blown out of proportion. I don't like the way you said how oh-so-terribly-wrong the wagon on RBT was - but you only remembered saying so today, when it's too late. I don't buy that you didn't realise she was in danger of being lynched. When you focused on the game and presented your huge case on fuzzy RBT was already in plenty danger of being lynched, and you should have noticed that on the reread.

I have some gut reactions towards EB, and I remember he didn't respond to some of the things you've brought up against him. But I haven't really got a case right now.
There are also a couple of things I don't like about Benmage. The brief skimming of his walls gave me a feeling that he assumes I'm scum and then goes on to explain how what I'm doing is scummy, and also I got the impression he knows you're town (which, in this setup, actually feels more like he's your scumpartner). On the other hand, he's very active and he's pushing the game forward, while I would expect scum to lurk a bit more and attempt to just slip under the radar, so that speaks in his favour.

Scien: I said myself that what I said on farside was a stretch. I know.
To answer the rest, let me explain how I view some things. When you are attacked, you defend. What does defence mean? It means trying to convince people the attacker is wrong. Since the attacker is saying you're scummy, then convincing people he's wrong means convincing people you're not scummy. That is, convincing people you're townie. That is, the moment you start defending yourself, you automatically imply that you are town. That's the logical basis behind defence, claiming town. So the moment you go on the defensive, you automatically claim town. You might as well explicitly say it, it doesn't change a thing.
My problem is with people who try to convince others they're town even when they weren't attacked.
In the exchange between farside and yourself, you were attacked, farside wasn't. That is why it didn't bother me at all that you said you were town.

[ODDin]

So why didn't you vote him? Nothings changed on this matter...you going to wait and try a speedy deadline lynch?

I didn't vote for him earlier because it was the start of the game and I was waiting to hear more from him before deciding to vote. I didn't vote later because I don't enjoy voting without having read the entire game.

Your gonna need to say more than just this...yes as i caught up i gave several gut reads at the moment...when my read through started winding down I was able to get more concrete things together. Your point?

I wasn't trying to make a point. I've said the opinions I had on people at the moment, as hewitt requested. Technically he requested scum, but I included you because I'm not really sure, I have strong feelings both ways.


Also, is the entire reason farside, benmage and hewiit are voting me summarised in post 744? Seriously?

[ODDin]

Also, starting reread from page 20! Whee! Will comment on stuff as I go. I already commented on some of these things, but I'll go ahead and do so again, just to refresh everybody's memory.

No it wasn't Scien I'm not fucking retarded and I know when a case is crap. Especially when you're looking at who started it I mean come on, that's ridiculous.

So, you could obviously see the case was a crappy one by looking at the one who STARTED it. However, you didn't see it D1. Either it's obvious, and then you should've seen it easily D1 and what you're saying is crap, or it's not so obvious, and then what you're saying is crap anyway.

However,

What are you trying to prove with the "not a really great track record" ElectricBadger? Because nobody really ever says that unless they're scum looking to discredit a player so nobody will listen to them.

That is indeed a good point against EB.

The rest of post 478 is more crap.


Also, on Maemuki asking Ben for opinions on current events:

Bull. Rushed opinions? Whats the point...so i can misinterpret/misread an argument waste my time and others reexplaining it...i'll get to it in due time, and be all caught up and proper soon enough.
[And then:] everything would also be out of context, i wouldnt even know where to look for the current debate...no its best to go from the beginning.

That's exactly what I've been saying right now.

Later, in Ben's posts, he seems to know for claim for certain that I am scum. Interestingly enough - BEFORE he said anything that seems to be the reason for his vote on me right now. Specifically, post 506.
Also, he (ben) talked a lot about what poor a player Zazier is. He's bashed him like there's no tomorrow in his posts - certainly more than he accused me, at least until then. However, he didn't say Zazier is scum at all, while me he's calling scum almost from the get go. Why is that?


Also, notice: initially benmage practically doesn't accuse hewitt at all. At some places he says "he doesn't like his playstyle", but doesn't really go as far as to say it's scummy. In a different place he says hewitt is town, without "if" or "maybe" or anything (when he speaks about Nik in a similar situation, he does insert a "maybe").
Then I call him out on it. The next post after I call him out (post 546) - most of the post is accusing hewitt.
This seriously strengthens my opinion that ben and hewitt are scumbuddies.


The argument between Scien and farside seems kinda meh to me. Lots of wifom and refusal to understand things. farside has a point, Scien's flip on RBT was a bit too sudden and a bit too convenient there. But it's not a very strong point, and Scien was pretty consistent with what he said - be it fabricated or not.
farside seems to say changing opinion = backtracking.

If indeed you guys are going to lynch me over this crap (and it is crap, you don't have points as much as you have possible motives with no backing), I urge you to take a good look around you. Oddin is not cleared by my flip. Farside isn't either. It is common from what I have seen to get into a 'Well she pushed that townie so hard... she wouldn't do that as scum'. You make sure you really believe that statement if you are going to let her slide for this.

AtE? Scien was nowhere near being lynched over this.


Later, EB is willing to give up on D2... bad. If you don't like the discussions that are happening, you should start new ones.


This is up to and including page 25.

[ODDin]

Of the players here you have the least room to talk. Per your explanation, you stopped posting because of the spam as well. Posting a good case to have it lost in rambling no one wants to read isn't much help to town.

I didn't stop posting because of spam, it's just that the number of posts made it impossible for me to keep normally.
I just said I needed more time. You said you were completely caught up, but simply didn't want to do anything. There's a difference.

[ODDin]

I guess in abstract though either:
A) Both of us are on the same anti-town team, and therefore are ignoring each other. This is not the case, but is what you suspect at the moment it seems.
B) He is town, and for some reason is confident I am town. This shouldn't be the case because repetitively in this game he said that he was unsure of my alignment.
C) He is scum and thinks that eventually I will get nailed by town, or is afraid to push my way thinking I might flip town (he wouldn't know if I was the other anti-town team or not). This could be the case. Although I think if I was in those scum shoes I would have pushed harder on me throughout the game, since I seemed to be the easier target between Farside and me.
D) He is scum and is confident that I am town. It would probably benefit him at this stage to start trying to hit the other anti-town team, in order to promote his team's win. As you guys said, at this point unless the town starts getting really lucky, we might get overwhelmed soon if the next round of lynch/NKs all land on pro-town roles.

Well, I think I've answered this already, but still:
E) I'm town, and I haven't been ignoring your posts - you just misunderstand why and when I think claiming town is scummy and when it isn't. Almost all of your posts read like one big null-tell to me.
I think it's partly because I feel that in your shoes, if I were accused for the things you've been accused for, I'd say more or less what you said, be I scum or town. I try to think of you as town, I try to think of you as scum, both scenarios make about the same sense to me.

The exchange about RBT has made me lean slightly towards negative in regards to you, but it's still pretty close to nothing.

To clarify: there were 2 issues about me. One between farside and myself, the othe between farside and scien.
The farside/scien thing is wrong - it heavily depends on who is attacking and who is defending.
The farside/me thign has a merit, I can agree to that. It's just that I never really considered this such a damning thing for farside to begin with. It was general musing on my part, which snowballed (not without my help) into something more because I wanted to use it for pressuring. farside was making a big deal out of it and I went along to see where it went.


Also, do you want me to mention another double standard? The one where farside was accusing Scien for deciding NOT to push a weak case, but then me pushing a weak case is horrible? She even admitted it's legitimate to see it that way.
That was the whole point of my case. Of course it was WIFOM. I said myself it was WIFOM. Many many times. I was using it to gain information.
farside ignoring this and still pushing the case against me is scummy.

That's up to the middle of page 27. I'll read up on the rest tomorrow. Enough mafia instead of studying for my exam. (I'm so going to fail tomorrow... )

[ODDin]

The Zzzz Vote count

ElectricBadger - Scien
Hewitt - ElectricBadger
ODDin - Hewitt, Farside22, Benmage

Not Voting: Nikanor, Maemuki, ODDin, SaintKerrigan.

Lots of love
Haylxxx

And there is a deadline in this game which is Sunday. You keep saying you will have to post less but knowing how this game is it should have been on your watch list with note put into your computer to go over when you have a chance to sit down and read.
Also before you took your "rest" period ben was making cases with walls of text.

Thursday is four days before Sunday. I did skim the game from time to time, but apparently I've missed the most important posts in here. I guess I should've set my priorities differently between the two game. My current conclusion is ONLY ONE GAME AT A TIME. But that's a different issue.

[ODDin]

Let me put it this way: if I did see the questions addressed at me, how stupid would I need to be to think ignoring them would help me in some way, no matter my alignment?

I agree that it was bad play on my part. I should've put more effort into the game and I should've paid better attention. True. But I wouldn't say it's scummy, since it's bad for me-scum as well. Actually, I think it'd hurt my scumteam, if I were on one, much more than it's hurting the town.

[ODDin]

I started the reread today, instead of tomorrow as planned, because benmage and hewitt were at my throat with it, and I thought that if they demand it so much, they might have a point. When I was rereading, I went all "oh shit I should've noticed that earlier...."

Regarding the WIFOM thing, I didn't actually use the term WIFOM, but, in my ISO:
In posts 4 and 5 I admit my argument was pretty weak.
Post 22 I essentially say that I know my argument is WIFOMy, though I don't use the exact term.

[ODDin]

Regarding aggressive scum, I haven't been in too many games, but from my current experience, I saw scum and town being aggressive about the same.
In Mini 814 there was one very aggressive scum (DNW) and another mildly aggressive scum (Starbuck). In Open 144 there was one pretty aggressive scum (AndyTony). In Newbie 845 I myself was relatively aggressive scum.

[ODDin]

You know, I went back and checked how the RBT wagon progressed, and it's really quite beautiful.

First of all, Scien was, in fact, one of the last people on the RBT wagon (that's what the whole exchange between farside and Scien revolves about). He wasn't the one who started it.

Looking back, there's a first FoS from farside (post 293), then a first vote from me (post 334), quickly followed by a second vote from farside (post 335). Then somewhat later there's a vote from EB (post 371), followed pretty quickly by Fuzzy (post 375). Then after some more discussion Scien voted in post 420, putting RBT at L-1.

Also, notice: post 421 is by hewitt, where he reread the game and presented an argument against Fuzzy. At this point RBT is at L-2, while Fuzzy is at L-4. Finally, Nik votes in post 432, putting RBT at L-1. hewitt is around, making posts 442, 443, 445. That's about 13 hours before the deadline. Finally Mae hammers.
And the funny part? Scien asked for a hammer AFTER it was done (simulpost probably, it was in the same minute). And then Wulfy "hammers", apparently not realising the deed was already done.

Bottom line: yeah, hewitt really didn't think RBT was in any danger. Sure. He was also not there at the deadline to warn us.

Oh, and this is just beautiful:

I think that the EB jump-on-jump-off argument is good too, but the fact remains, we are some fourteen hours off of a deadline and the only people that have a shot at getting lynched are myself and Rice. Take your pick.

(Rice is at L-1, by the way. Just for anybody that didn't notice.)

I HATE it when players turn impending deadlines into well it's either A or B take your pick. That is SO effing scummy.

(emphasis mine)

However, we later have:

I wasn't there so much near the end of the lynch period and if I had been I probably would've said something then instead of just pushing who I wanted to be lynched.

And just like I said earlier there was no justifiable reason to lynch RBT and I personally was really surprised by the lynch. Yesterday I was not expecting RBT to be lynched and I really wasn't on enough to fully comprehend the situation. That's all WIFOM and blah blah but I really didn't think RBT was in any danger.

I did not put much effort in stopping the RBT wagon. I honestly didn't think it was going to go anywhere and I did not foresee the lynch coming at all.

Seriously, is anyone buying this crap?

unvote, vote: hewitt

[ODDin]

EBWOP: In post 420 Scien put RBT at L-2, not L-1.

[ODDin]

(See, that's the problem with mafia. I know I should go study, but once I start I just can't stop. )

[ODDin]

I wasn't entirely sure myself you meant Scien as the one who started the case, that's why I didn't use that as a point against you.

I had no idea that RBT was at L-2 while Fuzzy was at L-4. Considering I don't find you, EB, and Scien to be reliable or credible town players I didn't think anybody would be stupid enough to follow you.

That's a contradiction. Either you didn't know RBT was at L-2, or you knew me, EB and Scien were voting for her (the other two votes that complete that L-2 are farside's, and I can give you the benefit of doubt and assume you missed it, and Fuzzy's which you couldn't have possibly missed since your entire argument was about him). So if you knew EB, Scien and myself were voting RBT, and seeing that you must have also known Fuzzy was voting her, you must have known she was at least at L-3.

But seriously, coming out of a complete reread with no grasp of who's leading in the votecount? I guess I should be thankful you knew what game you were playing.


And I'm not sure what doesn't make sense to you. You quoted a post which specifically says "RBT is at L-1". Hard to miss it right there.

[ODDin]

I'm accusing him of being a werewolf, obviously.

[ODDin]

If you were surprised by the RBT lynch, it only means you tunneled Fuzzy to incredible levels of extremeness at the end of D1, managing to post without noticing anything around you whatsoever. Still scummy.

[ODDin]

Then he dies tonight anyway. And saves the town from a double hit from scum teams. Obviously.

Erm, you might have a point there, though I'm not sure it's that obvious that hewitt dies tonight.

[ODDin]

Start of game…you mean start of D2 right?

Err, yeah, sorry about that. Start of D2.

And you’re going to need to explain more about those "strong" scum feelings.

I'll summarise later.

Double standard, hypocrisy---shift into lurker not good enough for you? Where/what case do you have on anyone...Seriously?

Like I said to farside - do you think that me-scum would actually decide to lurk at that point? For what end?
Also, I have a case on hewitt. I'm also suspicios of farside and you. I've said what I have on farside, more on you later.

I just said i gave out a bunch of early gut reads based on intial sentiment during my read through. You never get a feeling someone is town or scum just by reading their play?? (get better if the answer is no)...And I hate Zaziers guts...shes a disgusting waste on this site, and i think i explain more if you read all my snips at her.
The gut reads weren't my problem. My problem was that you while you said you didn't like Zazier's play, you never accused her of being scummy. Why? Or do you think it's just playstyle which has nothing to do with alignment?

I commented on everything. When i saw town-like behavior i said it. When i saw scum-like behavior i said it. I said the same shit towards Scien. Pointing out scum and town behavior...You ignoring comments about your partner again??ahaha

You missed my point there. What I said was that you when you were initially talking about hewitt, you practically didn't accuse him at all. Even when you didn't like something, you referred to playstyle and didn't really accuse him of being scummy. Then, when I brought it up, you said it was only a gut read, and in the post immediately afterwards started accusing hewitt quite seriously (although you didn't take these arguments anywhere).
What I'm saying is, it looks like you went "shit, I'm not accusing hewitt enough, I should accuse him a bit".
This has nothing to do with Scien, as I'm referring to your behaviour specifically before and after my post about you referring to hewitt as townie. I didn't notice you were referring to anyone else - Scien or otherwise - as certain town.


So, why am I suspicious of you? It looks like you and hewitt are scumpartners, and in your reread you were referring to him as certain town because you knew you don't have to think about him, you knew his alignment. Then I mentioned it, and you immediately began accusing him, because you realised your slip.
It could also be that you knew he was town - for instance, you're a werewolf and know the werewolf team, and since he's a mason he cannot be mafia.
Anyway, this feels pretty scummy to me.

[ODDin]

EBWOP: This is the previous post, with fixed quote tags.

Start of game…you mean start of D2 right?

Err, yeah, sorry about that. Start of D2.

And you’re going to need to explain more about those "strong" scum feelings.

I'll summarise later.

Double standard, hypocrisy---shift into lurker not good enough for you? Where/what case do you have on anyone...Seriously?

Like I said to farside - do you think that me-scum would actually decide to lurk at that point? For what end?
Also, I have a case on hewitt. I'm also suspicios of farside and you. I've said what I have on farside, more on you later.

I just said i gave out a bunch of early gut reads based on intial sentiment during my read through. You never get a feeling someone is town or scum just by reading their play?? (get better if the answer is no)...And I hate Zaziers guts...shes a disgusting waste on this site, and i think i explain more if you read all my snips at her.

The gut reads weren't my problem. My problem was that you while you said you didn't like Zazier's play, you never accused her of being scummy. Why? Or do you think it's just playstyle which has nothing to do with alignment?

I commented on everything. When i saw town-like behavior i said it. When i saw scum-like behavior i said it. I said the same shit towards Scien. Pointing out scum and town behavior...You ignoring comments about your partner again??ahaha

You missed my point there. What I said was that you when you were initially talking about hewitt, you practically didn't accuse him at all. Even when you didn't like something, you referred to playstyle and didn't really accuse him of being scummy. Then, when I brought it up, you said it was only a gut read, and in the post immediately afterwards started accusing hewitt quite seriously (although you didn't take these arguments anywhere).
What I'm saying is, it looks like you went "shit, I'm not accusing hewitt enough, I should accuse him a bit".
This has nothing to do with Scien, as I'm referring to your behaviour specifically before and after my post about you referring to hewitt as townie. I didn't notice you were referring to anyone else - Scien or otherwise - as certain town.


So, why am I suspicious of you? It looks like you and hewitt are scumpartners, and in your reread you were referring to him as certain town because you knew you don't have to think about him, you knew his alignment. Then I mentioned it, and you immediately began accusing him, because you realised your slip.
It could also be that you knew he was town - for instance, you're a werewolf and know the werewolf team, and since he's a mason he cannot be mafia.
Anyway, this feels pretty scummy to me.

[ODDin]

I really don't get what Ben wants from Kerrigan right now. Is there some sort of joke here?

[ODDin]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 77#2002877

Benmage, you're acting like an idiot. The guy just replaced into the game. You could try to be helpful instead of being an ass.

[ODDin]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 77#2002877

Benmage, you're acting like an idiot. The guy just replaced into the game. You could try to be helpful instead of being an ass.

WHY the fuck would you link the claim.. I wanted to see if he claimed the same thing without knowing what the first claim was you truly are terrible.

For starters, because you should stop using replacements as a tool to gain unfair advantages in the game. This is unsportsmanlike.

[ODDin]

The fact that other people were acting in an unsportsmanlike manner before doesn't make it any better. You were using the fact that she replaced and didn't yet read the thread to gain a possible advantage. If she were a player from the start it wouldn't have worked. Thus, it's unfair. Period.

That being said, he (it's he, not she) did made a rather weird choice by not claiming. Then again, Fuzzy didn't initially respond to hewitt's claim either.

And I outted myself? In what sense?

[ODDin]

Kerrigan: to clarify, are you are are you not confirming the claim?
Also, claiming VT when you're not is a bad idea. Townies shouldn't lie. It'd create all sorts of confusion and weirdness later on in the game.

[ODDin]

Benmage, you should get a sense of honour. Taking advantage of a replacement is not fair. You are not supposed to have any advantage in the situation of a replacement that you wouldn't have had without any replacements.
I don't want and don't need unfair victories. Sadly, I was too late.

[ODDin]

If Kerrigan is scum then he is in a losing situation because he isn't sure what to claim. This wouldn't have happened if Kerrigan was a player here from the start - then the strategy wouldn't have worked. So, it's a strategy which can only work if somebody has just now replaced in, and it uses this fact to work. Thus, you're potentially getting an advantage over the other team (if Kerrigan is scum and you're not on her scumteam) simply because one of the other team's players has been replaced.

[ODDin]

You can claim mason/monk without saying who your partner is.

[ODDin]

Also, what has been seen cannot be unseen. Kerrigan, the "other scum team" does pretty much constitute a claim of being scum.
F*ck you, Benmage, and pardon my French.

[ODDin]

No, I'm not. I'm annoyed at the fact that a scum claimed scum. Which means that unless somehow Kerrigan isn't scum, even if the town wins I won't be able to really consider this a victory. Which sucks.

Now I'll try to convince myself that what Kerrigan said isn't actually a scum claim until I believe that and can continue playing.

[ODDin]

Scien said that even if hewitt is scummy, we shouldn't lynch him. I want to know other people's stance on this. I myself am still not entirely sure it's the correct course of action - the mafia wants the town to get rid of the wolves as much as the town wants the mafia to do the same.

[ODDin]

Also, looking back at the whole issue with Ben, I think I didn't see Kerrigan in the right perspective because I was annoyed at Ben so much.
The "scum claim" isn't as clear a scum claim as it seemed at the moment, though it still is a little.
Kerrigan's not claiming can go both ways. Seeing we weren't close to the deadline and Kerrigan wasn't in risk of being lynched.
Kerrigan's accusations of Benmage are pretty scummy though. It looks like OMGUS, and the accusations don't hold water. Ben's actions in regards to Kerrigan don't suggest of anything specifically scummy, per se. Even though I don't like them, there's nothing to indicate it was scum looking for another scum instead of town trying to catch scum.

Also, where was I opportunistic?

[ODDin]

Scien, it felt like you were giving hewitt a free pass, however. Let's ignore the fact there are two teams for a second. How scummy do you find hewitt?

[ODDin]

Scien: You're ignoring 862.

Nik: Yes, I have a concept of honour and dignity. I was annoyed at Benmage's tactic and didn't want to use the info that came of it. Yes, I saw it as a scum claim at the time. No, I didn't vote because I wanted to take the time to think what course of action I was going to take in regards to that.
It's the equivalent of refusing to accept a pass from a fellow football player when you discover he's on doping.

[ODDin]

he's on doping.

huh?

Should be "he's doping". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_per ... s_in_sport

I still find him not scummy. Not a bit. I don't see him outing his own partner in day one as being a scum move in any sense.

Not now that we know that only one scum per m/m. Not then if he thought there could be two.

You think you can see a way that that served scum?

A possible option is that he wanted to draw the mafia's fire towards his partner, thus having them kill a townie instead of a werewolf. Which worked, for that matter.

Funny, however, that 886 is a better defence than hewitt has ever put up, IMO.

[ODDin]

That would be taking a big risk since the town knows that its only one in the team. Killing your partner who you should know is townie if you are scum... doesn't clear you at all and in fact might even hurt you in the long run when the town decides to test that "well one of them might be scum" theory.

You're somewhat contradicting yourself here. You've said yourself that m/ms have less chances of being scum than everybody else. Today you said that lynching him can be a bad idea simply because of the created situation.
I'm not saying it clears his name completely, but him being a mason doesn't make him a more likely target for town.

[ODDin]

Scien: you said: "doesn't clear you at all and in fact might even hurt you in the long run when the town decides to test that "well one of them might be scum" theory. "
But that doesn't make sense, since the town has no more reason to suspect him more because he's a mason. People aren't just going to "test the theory" for the lulz.

You may say that it can hurt him because he was on a town wagon. However:
1) I already said I'm not buying that he didn't see the RBT wagon. Perhaps he figured Fuzzy wouldn't actually be lynched.
2) Being on a townie wagon D1 isn't really a big crime. He was hardly the first to express suspicions of Fuzzy, and god knows Fuzzy deserved to be suspected.

[ODDin]

Benmage: You still haven't answered to my question about Zazier. You've criticised her play a lot in your reading of the game, yet you didn't accuse her of being scummy on that basis. And now that you're voting SK, you seem to be voting based on your latest trick alone, not taking into consideration the previous actions of Zazier.
Why?

[ODDin]

Also, EB, you said you were intending to do an ISO of me. Any news on that front?

[ODDin]

EBWOP: Zazier is a he.

[ODDin]

Well, that was fun, although we sucked majorly as town... Congrats mafia on the win. Thanks Hayl for modding.