He's gotta be a werewolf with this username.
Open 177 (Monks and Masons) - Game Over.
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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Well well, out of the RVS already.
On the farside / Scien exchange:
It seems to me farside is being extremely and overly aggressive. The argument against Scien does have a point, but it's not an overly strong point. Yes, it raises an eyebrow that he decided not to push it a bit further to get out of the RVS - but nothing more than that. It's a very, very weak scum tell at best. farside is, IMO, blowing it completely out of proportion.
She's also getting "royally pissed" over this, and I'm not sure why that is. I mean, really, headdesk over that?
It's also giving me a tunneling vibe. She's practically disregarded all other players during that exchange.
Why would she do that? I have an idea:
Could well be read as: look how extremely and terribly aggressive I'm being right now. Ergo: I'm not scum.farside wrote: I notice that very few scum now how to be aggressive in the beginning of the game. They either followers, or they hem and haw or backtrack or make wishy washy comments. I don't go after the agressive person. typically scum watches, waits and doesn't do much else.
And my personal recent reference of scum being extremely aggressive at the start of the game: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11779 (DNW, scum, attacking Starbuck, also scum, very aggressively in the early stages of the game)
So, I'm currently getting scummy vibes from farside, thus,unvote, vote: farside
Other thing of note: in posts 26 and 27, Wulfy and maemuki continue playing randomly even though we're clearly out of the RVS by that point. Especially alarming is Maemuki, who's also still voting for herself.-
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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I have read the exchange well enough, thank you, and yes, I know this comment was triggered by you answering a question. However, it feels to me you used it to say "look here, look here, I'm not scum." It's a gut feeling, I feel like you, umm, "overexplained" with this post.farside wrote:I was asked from scien why I felt him not being aggressive was bad and I was answering the question. I get the impression reading your comments that you didn't read the exchange between us at all.
Not really, no. It's something to note, it may even be something to vote over to start discussion early in the day. It's not something to be annoyed over so much. farside seems overly emotional over this. Reading over the whole exchange makes me wanna go "jeez, come down..."Zazie wrote:The statement of being "royally pissed" was used to describe something else, namely the back and forth between Farside and Scien. Because what they are discussing the whole time is basically the same thing.
As for the head desk, do you disagree that when somebody points out something he sees as a possible lead, but doesn't persue it, deserves a head desk or something like that or not?
That's why I said "tunneling vibe". It's not strictly tunneling at this point, due to the lack of much else to talk about.Zazie wrote:Not liking this. There's barely any discussion besides the arguments between Scien and Farside. Heck, even you (ODDin) mentioned one thing besides this discussion.
Also, I don't think my quote of farside is twisting her words. All I said is what I felt when I read that (yes, I felt that even though knew it technically came as a reply to a question on the subject). That's what I felt, so I wanted to let the town know I feel that. I'm not saying I'm certain this is the case, but people need to be aware that that post by farside might have had an ulterior motive, so to speak.-
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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farside: I voted for you on the 3rd page of the first day of the game, with no other votes against you. At this stage, I don't see my vote as expressing "I want you lynched at the end of this day". It's meant to pressure you. It's there so I can analyse the way you and others react to it. At the moment, I don't see anyone at all I want to actually lynch - all current arguments are pretty weak, mine included.
As for Scien's reactions, they seem pretty honest. I didn't notice excessive nervousness and signs of cracking in his posts.
Yes, your argument against him does have merit. However, I don't feel his words changed the status of the argument. He reacted pretty much the way I'd expect him to react, be he town (who made a small mistake) or scum (that doesn't crack that easily).
I was at first slightly bothered by his analysis of what would have happened had he done otherwise, but when I thought about it, it does make sense in the context of the questions he's been asked.
That's why I didn't comment on his posts.
Meta on you being emotional and aggressive as town will certainly help. If this is indeed a matter of playstyle , my suspicion of you will drop. As I've said, my perception is somewhat coloured by a recent game where scum acted in a way quite similar to yours here (bussing their scumpartner, actually, but considering that right now is too big a logical leap).-
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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farside - of course I expect you to defend. I was replying to post 97, where you basically said that I voted you over a very weak argument. Yes, it's weak, but mind you, I don't think you can hold that against me at this point in the game. The beginning of the day is a good time to be voting and pressuring over all sorts of things to stir things up and get healthy discussion. You accused Scien of *not* doing that, after all.-
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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What?Wulfy wrote:Something seems contradictory here.
There wasn't much to "read" in that post. All it said was:Wulfy wrote:*bites* You place me in a basket with someone I'm attacking? Did you even read my post or see the first line of my statement (involving dog acting) and just ignore it?FoS at the Octopus.
You wanna tell that doesn't look like a random vote? I'm not saying you're playing randomly right now. I'm just saying that that post was a random vote (or seemed very much like a random vote, seeing that it wasn't backed up by any argument, and there weren't any arguments on Maemuki for you to follow).Wulfy wrote:*barks*
Submited:Votes ugly bird Maemuki
Also, it's not just an octopus, it's Cthulhu Ninja Zombie. Have resepct.-
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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First of all, something I forgot to reply to earlier:
In post 83, farside said:
But there were 2 headdesks in post 23, one of them regarding Scien. Here:farside22 wrote:The head desk was actually because of YJ and Maemuki exchange. It made me want to cry. Also note I'm very sarcastic person and it's just my nature to be sarcastic.
(Second headdesk bolded)farside22 wrote:I almost felt like smacking my head on my desk reading the exchange between YJ and Maemuki. Anyone care to explain if there is a past relationship between these two because frankly goofiness likes this just gives me a bad taste.
Next:
Wow this is so weak. I mean really? Seriously you have a good thought and you feel like random voting?!!!Scien wrote:Vote: Hewitt
Why hello there.
Although I don't know what to think about the Wulfy not confirming thing, or the person going after him without mentioning this. No really, its a curiosity, and I haven't made up my mind if it actually means anything >.<
*smacks head on desk*
I feel better. Scien I don't get it. Your not being aggressive on this, your sitting back and just bringing it up but you don't want to press on it.
*alert*
*alert*
*alert*
unvote:
Vote: Scien
The only time I see people touch on a possible scummy thing and back off our typically scum. Your non aggression seems like something I see when people (scum) want to make a weak case but don't want to be agressive in it as it might look weak when it is.
So that's what I was referring to earlier.
I understand it's sarcastic (and I realise you didn't, I hope, actually smck your head on your desk), but it still expresses more agitation than I'd expect.
I did not defend you. What I said was that what you said didn't change my standing regarding the argument against you, and thus I didn't comment on it. Farside's argument against you does have a point. Everything you said in reaction to it didn't change my opinion on it - it didn't make me feel "that's a good defence, I agree with Scien now", and it also didn't make me feel "Scien is nervous and cracking like scum, his words make me more suspicious of him".Scien wrote:On the contrary, well kind of, I am currently getting a weird vibe from it for different reasons. I find it hard to believe that anyone could be on my side now after all the spinning that has happened, and ODDin seems to be defending me... I think that is strange.
For the record, me voting for farside doesn't mean I mean I find her initial argument against Scien technically wrong. Seeing we have two different scum groups, you can have scum attacking scum even without bussing.
Also, I do think that pressuring using relatively weak arguments in the beginning of the game is acceptable. I'm doing it myself.
@Wulfy: What I'm saying is, by the time you random voted Maemuki, the game was already well out of the RVS. Reading farside's argument against Scien and saying something about it doesn't seem like that hard a thing to do...
I'm not sure how comfortable I am with a player who doesn't read everything in the game. It's mafia. We post a lot here. This isn't even close to really big walls of texts.Maemuki wrote:Anybody can make a tl;dr version of Scien's posts? There's no way I'll read all that. I'm too lazy.
Also, really high levels of obtuseness with not understanding what EB is saying. Seriously people, it's not that hard.
Scien does contradict himself somewhat in this: at first he said he wasn't sure if his observations on Wulfy and myself meant anything. "Not being sure" means allowing the possibility that it does, in fact, mean something. Later he says he knew for certain it didn't mean anything and knew it weren't scum tells.
Nikanor: not reading things is bad. You're expected to read everything in the game. If you don't consider it fun, you shouldn't be playing the game.
@Farside: You've ignored my request for meta of you being emotional and getting annoyed and agitated over arguments.
You've also mostly ignored both myself and EB when we said that you were accusing us for doing what you accused Scien of not doing. You responded to EB only to the extent of saying "I don't get what you're saying".
What's up with that?
Also, I do find FoSs useful. They concisely explain your standing and opinion on people.-
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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You see, to apply pressure you need to make clear that you're ready to lynch, sure. That said, you might pressure somebody without intending to lead it all the way to the lynch just there. Not every vote means that if everybody else votes right at that moment for that person you're going to be satisfied.Fuzzyman wrote:Is there anybody out there that disagrees with this?
There is such a thing as "pressure votes", and they are being used extensively, whether you like it or not.-
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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Fuzzyman, while discussion of cons and pros of pressure votes is generally valid, you're contributing painfully little to the game overall, and such a discussion isn't, IMHO, the most important thing to talk about right now (unless you have some immediate practical uses for the discussion, in which case, do enlighten us). It seems like you're trying to do as little as possible. Your posts are very short, provide little actual info, and mostly discuss tangential issues.
This is not to say you're the biggest offender in the not-contributing department. Yank is the prime offender, I think, and he's followed by hewitt and YJ (although YJ did acknowledge this and said he was gone and expressed intention to catch up, so he's getting the benefit of doubt right now).
So, more content please. Answering these questions can be nice:
1) What do you think about the arguments against Scien? Do you think they are have merit? Do you suspect Scien for being scum based on them?
2) What do you think about farside and her behaviour in that exchange?
3) Who do you find most scummy? Why?-
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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If you think farside is the most scummy person, why aren't you voting for her? You haven't voted at all, in fact. Why is that?
Also, earlier you said you dislike those voting for farside - yet you find her the scummiest person yourself. If so, shouldn't it make sense to you that others also find her the scummiest person and thus vote for her? She's only got 2 votes on her, that's hardly dangerous territory or a serious bandwagon.-
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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Not yet, because I was busy with real life stuff and didn't have the time to yet. I will, though.ZazieR wrote:Farside has stated that this is natural behaviour from her. Have you checked if this is true? If not, why?
I was drawing attention to what might be the beginning of a trend. It seems like laying the groundwork for tunneling, in a way. I wanted the town to be aware of that, should it become more serious in the future.ZazieR wrote:Then why point it out?
I don't have that many games behind my belt, frankly, but I've seen both. I've seen lurking scum and I've seen very active and aggressive scum. I really can't say which I've encountered more.ZazieR wrote:Question: What's your impression of scum in your games? Are they mostly passive or mostly aggressive?
I think I said so in reply to farside's accusations of me pushing for a lynch over a weak argument, or maybe accusations by hewitt for being opportunistic, or both. I said it in defence of myself, basically, to explain that this vote is not, per se, "pushing for a lynch".ZazieR wrote:ODDin, why point out that your vote against Farside was a pressure vote?
I don't see your point. I read these two posts by me, and I don't see any contradiction. I do think her argument has merit. At the same time, I don't think it has enough merit to get all that excited and agitated over as she did. All the while I myself am currently voting based on a relatively weak argument - which is, basically, what she accused Scien of not doing.ZazieR wrote:
And it was you who stated this about what Farside did:ODDin wrote:farside - of course I expect you to defend. I was replying to post 97, where you basically said that I voted you over a very weak argument. Yes, it's weak, but mind you, I don't think you can hold that against me at this point in the game. The beginning of the day is a good time to be voting and pressuring over all sorts of things to stir things up and get healthy discussion. You accused Scien of *not* doing that, after all.
But in the first quote, it seems you agreed with Farside.ODDin wrote:On the farside / Scien exchange:
It seems to me farside is being extremely and overly aggressive. The argument against Scien does have a point, but it's not an overly strong point. Yes, it raises an eyebrow that he decided not to push it a bit further to get out of the RVS - but nothing more than that. It's a very, very weak scum tell at best. farside is, IMO, blowing it completely out of proportion.-
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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I need to do a small reread, but in the meanwhile I'll answer to something:
I disagree. "Pushing for a lynch" means not only voting, but also actively advocating that you believe a certain person should, in fact, be lynched, and that it's the good and smart thing to do. It's not the same as voting.hewitt wrote:That's a pretty silly statement. Any vote on a player, regardless of intention, is pushing farther and farther towards a lynch because you can't control other players' actions and a pile-on isn't unheard of. Any vote on any player is always a push for a lynch.
It's a theory thing, though, regarding what implications and underlining meanings votes have or haven't.-
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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Yeah, like you'd say "I vote ODDin because he voted me". You voted me because of the argument I laid out against you. This certainly makes it feel like OMGUS. OMGUS means that I suspect that the true reason behind your vote isn't the one you've stated - and I do.
Other than that:
1) This is hardly new material. You commented on this argument long ago, and nothing new was said about it in quite some time. Why did you vote for me only now?
2) What you're doing is hypocritical. Earlier, you've voted Scien for not pushing a weak case. Now you're voting me because I did push a weak case.
3) This is the second time now you're accusing me of not reading things, which feels like you attempting to invalidate my arguments. I am reading what you're saying, and I know what's going on. When I say something, it means I think so even if other things have been said on the subject matter - that is, it means I think you're lying.-
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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I never, ever, said i think Scien is town. All I said was that his reaction to the argument didn't make me feel he's more (or less) scummy. I said this in post 151, although I think it should've been clear even before that. I also said several times that farside's argument against Scien has a point - that is, I think it gives Scien scum points, albeit not much.farside wrote:Finds scien's reaction town. I keep feeling there is a pairing here which really struck me with scien's first comment to now this one.
So who's twisting whose words?
I also explained the OMGUS thing. No decently experienced scum votes without giving any arguments at all. OMGUS helps scum take the heat off themselves by turning the attack towards the one who's attacked them. It's usually pretty difficult for people to simultaneously suspect two people who are both attacking each other (although in this game, it might actually mean they're both scum without any busses involved, but that's a different point).
So, when a decently experienced scum undertakes OMGUS, one would expect him to fabricate an argument to support it.
You getting all that edgy over me saying it's OMGUS only strengthens my suspicion. I'd expect town to react a bit more calmly to accusations, really. After all, if you're town then you know you're town, and truth works in your favour. Also, town tend to more readily acknowledge when arguments against them have basic merit, and don't feverishly try to counter every single accusation being thrown in their general direction.-
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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My original vote on you was based on two things:
1) You were far too annoyed and edgy over what seemed to be a not so strong argument. (It's not the argument itself which bothers me - it's the way you handled the discussion around it.)
2) One of your posts made me feel like you're trying to implicitly show how oh-very-town you are.
The first things pends me reading the game you provided - no, I haven't yet, for the same reason I didn't reread this game yet although I want to; too little free time.
I have some other issues against you which have appeared later.
1) Your inconsistency regarding the usage of weak cases (you accuse Scien because he didn't, you accuse others because they did).
2) What I suspect to be OMGUS.
Regarding Scien, my current case would consist of your original argument: he didn't push a weak case and preferred to stay in the RVS, which is bad for town. I think it is a scum-tell, although a pretty weak one.-
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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I think I've explained this several times already. You explained why scum aren't aggressive in games - a thing I don't really agree with, as I've seen scum playing aggressively in games - in a way that made me feel like you're attempting to imply "look, I'm playing exactly in the way in which, as I say, scum don't play". It's an interpretation. What you said could've been said in many ways, and from the way you worded it, it makes me feel like you were trying to get across the point of "look how town I am".farside wrote:Because I explained to someone why I find their nonagression scummy that makes is sound like I'm so towny? That makes no sense.
No, it's not something I'm 100% sure of - I can't get inside your brain to find out what you really meant. However, when I read that post - although I knew exactly in which context it has appeared - I have immediately felt that you were trying to paint yourself town with it.
It is up to the rest of the people to decide for themselves whether they feel the same way about that post or not.
I've already answered to that huge post several times. Here above I've answered to a part of it again. Your post is mostly based around me twisting your words. I don't understand how saying "I think farside is lying" or "I think farside has ulterior motives" is called twisting your words. I don't say you said something else. I said that I *think* you *mean* something else, instead of or in addition to what you've actually said.farside wrote:I just made a huge post in which I show how I find you scummy. So far there is only 1 you really brought up to defend which I missed the scum part.
It's not something I can 100% prove. However, it is known that scum lie and have ulterior motives. So, obviously, in my attempt to catch scum I attempt to understand whether somebody is lying or is driven by ulterior motives in saying certain things.
Wrong. I have said multiple times already that I think your argument on Scien is correct (I've explicitly said it has merit and that you have a point). When somebody says "X is scummy because of argument Y", and then I say "I think argument Y is correct" - don't you think it means I think X is scummy?farside wrote:Also I note it took me asking you to put your thoughts on scien and his actions to do so again it bothered me that you seem to neglect his actions.
And once again, I don't neglect his actions. I said that his words didn't make me change my opinion on him - they didn't give him, in my eyes, neither scum points nor town points.-
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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ODDin Mafia Scum
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By some luck I managed to glean some time to reread the second half of the game and say some things. (Quite a lot, as it turned out. Oh well, that was certainly more fun than my math assignment... )
1) I noticed a worrying thing about hewitt. He's acting very cautiously, he says he doesn't want to vote until he's certain that someone should be lynched. All the while he says he feels there's nothing to comment on and that the farside/scien discussion hurt the game. He must have realised that good discussion and strong arguments won't just come out of the underbrush singing songs. They need to be made. If he's town, then it's in his best interest to try to get better arguments. Yet he's not doing such an effort. Fine, he's reluctant to use his vote for that end (although it could've been useful, I think) - but how about asking questions? He says he finds farside scummiest, but he doesn't question her, he doesn't try to push her, pin her down, anything of the sort, to get better arguments. He's not really pressing anyone else either. He seems content enough sitting in the corner.
2) At one point Fuzzy said he's going to reply to my questions just after he got an answer from farside. While the significance and relevance of these questions is lower now, it's still worthy to note that he didn't, actually, answer them at any point.
3)
Why did you remember to say this only now? That comment hung there for a pretty long time now. Why didn't you say it was wrong before?Nikanor wrote:
I can see you haven't played in a while. In other words, this is totally, totally wrong. I see overaggressive scum more than I see overaggressive town.farside wrote:
I notice that very few scum now how to be aggressive in the beginning of the game. They either followers, or they hem and haw or backtrack or make wishy washy comments. I don't go after the agressive person. typically scum watches, waits and doesn't do much else.
4) Post 235 by Nik and the ensuing discussion is disturbing me quite a bit. He's answering instead of me for things directed specifically at me and defending me. This looks an awful lot like buddying.
It's okay if you're town and think farside's arguments against me are wrong - but I'd expect you to wait for me to answer before saying anything. Otherwise, you're basically handing me a defence. What if I'm scum and these statements by farside would've tripped me and caused me to slip up?
This is very poor scumhunting there.
5)
"pend" is a wrong usage of the verb. Read it as "awaits" - remains hanging until I get down to actually read that meta.Wulfy wrote:Side note: pends should be "pings" write[sic]?
1. Um...is this a claim that being angry over details is scummy? Wouldn't then every minamalist who gets angry be scum? This point is pathetic.
2. Wait...so you're suggesting town wouldn't make an attempt to prove they are town? Are you saying town posts would be inherently scummier than scum posts? Why do I see a too townie argument forming...
3-1. Would you please point that double standard out with citations or examples?
4-2. ...Omgus argument doesn't exist...
Nvrmind on 3-1, Farside admitted it, so I have noted that. Her excuse of "not reading back [well enough]" doesn't fly with me.
Now, to the point(s).
1. I feel that being overly agitated and annoyed over small and not so significant arguments is scummy. This is partly because I feel one wouldn't normally get so agitated over it, making me feel the agitation might be artificial and not genuine.
2. Town don't generally feel the need to assert their towniness without provocation, and don't implicitly or explicitly say "I'm town, I'm town" when it isn't called for. This isn't a "too towny" argument - far from it. There's a huge difference between "looking very townie" and "consciously trying to look very townie".
Both of these arguments were brought up by me long ago. Where were you?
4-2. I really don't get you people. Do you actually expect sombody with minimal brain to say "OMG you suck you voted for me so I'm gonna vote for you"? When scum want to vote for somebody for reasons which aren't exactly pro-town, they at least try to manufacture arguments to mask their real intention. If scum wouldn't lie and would say their reasons explicitly, life would be much easier. Sadly, they don't. Sometimes they lie. These lies may include them saying they vote someone for certain arguments which aren't, in fact, the real reason for the vote. If I'm scum and I think to myself, "hmm, I need to attack X for evil scummy reasons a, b, c", then I sit down and think "hmm, what arguments can I make up to mask my real reasons?". So, yes, I think it's perfectly valid for me to say that I think farside is doing exactly that. Naturally, it's a matter of interpretation. I think farside is lying. It's a read I get on her.
6) Where did Zazie go? And I'll join the line in wanting to hear why he's voting scien. If he stated a reason, I missed it.
7) Also, farside, you continuing to call what I did "twisting your words" is utterly ridiculous. If you think it's so obvious that you didn't mean what I say you meant - then let the damn thing lie! If it's obvious that I'm full of shit, you don't need to show it to everyone. Everyone will see it for themselves and think "why is ODDin saying farside is lying? It's so obvious she didn't lie. There's no way he could actually think that, he must have consciously fabricated it."
I'm in my right to think you have ulterior motives and hidden messages in your posts, and I'm certainly in my right to think you're lying. Saying over and over again "but I said it meant something else" doesn't change the fact that I think you're lying - I KNOW what you said. That's why I call it a LIE, because I think what you SAY isn't what you REALLY THINK.
I mean, you're not giving any arguments to show you weren't lying. You just keep saying "I didn't lie because I said I didn't lie so that must be true".
8)
Again, I know it came in the context of answering a question. However, from the way it was worded, it made me feel like you're trying to get a certain point across which wasn't really part of strictly answering the question. This is actually the first thing I thought of when I read that (although you are, of course, free to think I'm lying - and I might be, for all you know, of course.)farside wrote:I see it this way. I was asked a question, i aswered the question. Another player pulls that answer out and automatically pulls the "look at me I'm aggressive I must be scum/town" comment out which is not the case in my mind all I did was anwser a question asked to me.
As it has been pointed out it could be interputted either way but he is taking the I must be scum approach which I find an interperuptation and not actual scum hunting and hence scummy.
Since I thought it was of importance to town to know of such a possibility, I felt it is useful to mention it. Why so? Because if a town player reads it and thinks "no, I think ODDin is wrong here, farside is obviously honest here", then no harm was done. However, there's a possibility that a player would come along and think "hey, I think ODDin is right, it does feel that way, and I didn't see it myself". It isn't, on its own, a terribly strong argument - because I can't, at this point, be sure that you're lying. It's a possibility to keep in mind. And it was important, IMO, for the rest of the town to be aware of the possibility. Knowing a new option is never a bad thing. People were given brains to decide for themselves whether that option is reasonable or not.
Also, I am not taking the "you must be scum approach". I'm taking the "you might be scum for all I know and this here could be a scummy thing to do" approach, which I take for everyone, naturally.
You say it's not scumhunting? Fine. Think so if you wish. In my personal opinion I'm doing quite enough scumhunting here.
9) Once again I would like you to pay attention how farside is making much ado about nothing. The whole issue of me twisting her words is in serious danger of becoming another scien/farside thing (scien/ODDin this time), and I'm not the one to blame for that. She's taking a small thing and runs with it like it's the best argument on earth.
You asked me what pressure votes are good for? This. My vote, made over a relatively weak argument (and for crying out loud, I've admitted to it being weak several times now) led to a huge case on me by farside. Suddenly I'm public enemy number one. I would most certainly expect town to react a LOT more calmly to this.-
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[1]"All of your points" is cute, but you only really had a single pretty weak point - the original accusation of Scien. Plus, as I've already said, the fact alone that you bring up a point which I find valid doesn't mean you're less scummy in my eyes. Given the two scum factions, scum can be actively and efficiently scumhunting.farside22 wrote:[1]When a comment like I made can be skewed to be a interptation of hey look I'm agressive so I must be town or scum and you point to it as scum while saying all my points I made had merit but you find my aggression scummy because of another game I find you not to be scum hunting but using excuses to buy a vote.
Finally I was asked to make as case I was explain to explain comments I made and I did as such. [2]Why do you seem to call it much ado about nothing when others ask should I just sit there and say nothing as 4 others have done so far?
Also, the argument isn't based on a different game. Asserting one's towniness without provocation is a scum-tell. The question at hand is whether your post on aggressive scum was, in fact, implied assertion of your towniness or not. All I said is that it might be. No other games involved.
[2]You're raising a lot of dust over pretty small issues - scien's first vote and my comment your post. I'm not saying you shouldn't have commented at all, I'm saying that there's no reason to make such a big deal out of it. Look what the argument with scien did - half the people haven't even read it and hewitt claims to not post much due to it (which means, it's providing a defence for potential lurkers).
Zazie also commented on my post, and he also apparently thought it was far-fetched and improbable. But he didn't make it the crux of his posts and didn't turn it into a huge issue. That's how I expect it to be handled. I can perfectly understand if people think it's too far-fetched. I myself am not claiming it's that important. It's you who are making a big deal out of it - not me.
Any reasons, or are you just happy to jump on a possible bandwagon?Riceballtail wrote:That said, ODD is definitely scum. Farside/Scien cannot be in the same faction, but could still both be scum.
VOTE:ODDin-
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And yet you didn't bother to say anything until it was dug up by others and became the crux of the discussion. Interesting.Wulfy wrote: I was around.
It is impossible to prove somebody is lying in most situations. Yhere are cases when the lies are obvious and happen in the thread itself, but that's a minority. Most of the time whether somebody is lying is a matter of interpretation based on psychology and other things.Wulfy wrote: 4. For your argument to be legitimate, you would have to actually go back and prove that no reasons exists (or are not arbitrarily fabricated) so that you can reason that it is truly an OMGUS vote. Damn, you think people would learn this in novice games.
I cannot prove it and it is ridiculous to ask me to. So, I'm in my right to suspect somebody for using OMGUS without being able to technically PROVE it.
You'd think they'd learn this in newbie games. Or, at the place you learn the case might be, in basic understanding of the concepts of proof, logic and lies.
Yes, I think the arguments farside made against me are fabricated and not genuine. Why?
1) They were around for a long time, but she only used them to actually vote for me much later.
2) She's giving my arguments more importance than I am giving them. I do not claim my original argument against her was really strong - I admitted it was weak and based on lots of interpretation. She, however, accuses me based on it as if I've used it to push against her much more seriously. If I assume she does understand my take on my own arguments, and seeing that she talks about them as if I give them much more importance than I actually do, I figure she must be using them as a means to an end.
Riceball - you still didn't explain your reasons for voting me.-
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Scien - do you feel fuzzy did less than, say, Maemuki? Yank and YJ also participated very little prior to being replaced. Do you think this is indicative of anything?
Also, there are some arguments on Fuzzy out there which aren't about his inactivity. farside has accused him of buddying me, for instance. Do you agree with that? Either way, why didn't you mention it? Don't you think it's important to address all arguments on the one you're voting for?-
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My previous post was mainly aimed at your behaviour previously - you earlier said you find the discussions boring but preferred not to vote.
Also, saying that you're afraid scum my use your arguments against you is... a strange thing to say. If you have good arguments, share them. If somebody uses a good argument against you, then it's scummy of them, and that's an argument against them, not you.
Avoiding to share useful and important information - especially when you claim yourself that the game is boring and isn't going anywhere much - is, IMHO, scummy. If everybody doesn't share there arguments in fear of the arguments being turned against them by scum, the game won't move anywhere.
As town, you're not supposed to make things a guessing game. You're supposed to make it easier for town to understand your arguments - so that they can analyse you more easily (and if you're town, that's a good thing for you) and so they can see whether they agree to those arguments themselves.
Even if you think your arguments aren't new, sharing them will at least make it clear what you think - what you agree with, what you don't agree with, etc. Later on in the game, it will help us analyse things since we'll know what you thought about people.
So basically, you're deliberately withholding information to protect your own hide.
FoS: hewitt-
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Riceball, still you fail to present any arguments whatsoever as to why I am scummy in your eyes, and the only argument you presented against Fuzzy was that he's using appeal to emotion (is that the sole reason you think he's scum?)
I guess it's just too hard for you to fabricate arguments, so you just decided to not even try, ay? Tough luck.-
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1) Show me where I was coaching Fuzzy.Riceballtail wrote:Fuzzy was lurking until he started gathering votes. Then pulls out an AtE, which is a huge scumtell. ODD is scum for his clear and blatant coaching of Fuzzy, and thanks for continuing to confirm it with your defense of him.
2) Is me coaching scum the only reason you find me scum?
3) I am defending Fuzzy... where, exactly? I didn't know that asking somebody to give a reason to calling somebody scum is called defending.
What I mean is, you've missed a good opportunity to potentially catch me, if I'm scum. And you don't know whether I'm scum or not. For all you know, I may be scum - by answering my arguments instead of me, you're potentially giving me a good defense which might not have thought of (if, indeed, I'm scum, and have to fabricate my defense instead of simply saying the truth).Nikanor wrote:Sorry? It's nice for you to acknowledge that I am scumhunting and not falsescumhunting, though.-
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What I'm saying is that it can be a veiled assertion of towniness.EB wrote:This is a misrepresentation. Farside's comment was a response to a question, not an unprovoked claim. Although extrapolation from it is interesting, it's largely WIFOM; pushing it this hard as a scum tell is bad. Condemning farside for being too aggressive countering your hard push of a weak argument is hypocrisy.
Also, the whole point is that I was not pushing it as a scum tell. Farside reacted as if I had, centering the discussion around it, thus making it look as if I pushed it so hard. Also, I'm not condemning her for being too aggressive. It's the completely skewed importance she's giving to things that's disturbing me.
That being said,unvote, vote: Riceball
My vote on farside has completed its purpose and its job is done at the moment. Farside is still high on my scumdar, but heck, at least she's playing the game.-
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It's not connected to the game per se, that's why I said it's tangential. I just want to know how to refer to somebody in third person. I know that people can be annoyed if they're referred to as being of the wrong gender, so I prefer to ask. That's all.Canada wrote:I’m not sure I see the relevance of this – it doesn’t seem to be even remotely connected? Can you explain how it matters? Is it just so you can call him/her a him or a her?-
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Gah, this setup discussion is drowning all other discussion. It allows people post and discuss something seemingly relevant without actually participating in the real game.
Scien, you still haven't really said what you think about the argument between farside and myself.
Also, RBT, can you give us detailed and organised cases on myself and Fuzzy, containing ALL of your reasons for thinking that we are scum, individually and together? And if you're not intending to do so, can you explain why you're not intending to do so, and why you think it helps the town for you to accuse people without presenting your arguments against them?-
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To be frank, when hewitt said he was a mason with you and you didn't say it wasn't so, one could logically assume you that you've implicitly confirmed that the claim was true.
Mostly because if you weren't a mason with hewitt, then you would have every reason to say that he's lying and vote for him (unless, of course, you're his scumpartner and this claim was a part of your plan).-
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I want everybody's opinion, not only yours. You happened to catch my eye because you were posting at the moment, but haven't really said anything on this issue. It also looked as if you might be trying to use the discussion on the setup to avoid discussing other matters.
Why am I interested in your opinion? Mostly because I want to have as much info as I can as we continue the game. I've often seen people conveniently avoiding to comment on important issues, and then later in the game, after some deaths and the like, you try to reread the game - and find out they haven't really said anything on the subject. For instance, if farside flips scum at any point in the game and you will be alive, I will reread the game to try and understand how you interacted with her.
Plus, the more info I have, the better I can catch scum, ay?
In this light, @everyone who hasn't said so yet:
1) What do you think of farside's case against me?
2) Who do think is most scummy? Why?-
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Also, on the matter itself: I can agree with many of your points. Indeed, my case was based on many assumptions which aren't really provable at this point. It was, as it were, a pressure case - I held to it for a bit longer than I've myself expected, but I was driving a knowingly weak case in an attempt to get to something.
And yes, I know that saying it's a pressure vote removes the pressure. I just felt the need to defend myself, and I don't usually lie as town - if I'm specifically questioned on my motives, I will say them. Also, I think it worked rather well nevertheless-
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From your post, I've understoodMaemuki wrote:You would prefer to have a no-lynch?youwanted a no-lynch.
Allow me to quote that post:
That is, you want to lynch people who want to impede a no-lynch. Which, the way I understand it, means you do want a no-lynch.Maemuki wrote:
Anybody to impede a no-lynch. Seriously.Fuzzyman wrote:Who is your deadline vote?
So, if you want a no-lynch, please explain why.
If you don't want a no-lynch, than please explain what that post mean, and say whom you're intending to vote (and why).-
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When I think about it, I'm not sure I like the fact that Mae is likely going to get away with voting without actually having any opinion on the one she's voting for - she just wants to prevent a no-lynch.
Preventing no-lynches is good and all, but how about some actual opinions? Personally, I don't think I understand whom you find scummy at the moment. Who are your top suspects? If the decision for whom to lynch was entirely in your hands, whom would you choose?
And if you haven't got an opinion - how come?-
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First of all, hello there Benmage. Please DON'T post before you read your role PM. It can give you an advantage if you're scum (I did it myself without realising the consequences not too long ago).
Back to the game itself.
1) I didn't really have time to read hewitt's case on EB yesterday. It's pretty interesting, but IMHO a bit too dependant on interpretation. I can see his play as town play well enough. That being said, EB only responded to the farside/scien part of the accusations. There were also quotes regarding other posts by him, which he didn't address.
2) I think hewitt is trying too hard to show that EB is manipulative to day. He's blowing EB's posts out of proportion, EB's questions are mostly valid.
3) hewitt: as EB and Mae have already asked - why did you think RBT's case was crap? I don't remember anything from you yesterday saying that the case on RBT was crap in your opinion. If a case is crappy, you should say so.
We can't know that, and you can't prove that - just like what you've said to Scien.hewitt wrote:I wasn't there so much near the end of the lynch period and if I had been I probably would've said something then instead of just pushing who I wanted to be lynched.
Sure, now you can say that you thought the case on RBT was crap. Yet yesterday you said nothing. Even if you answer the question and explain why you supposedly thought the case on RBt was crappy, we can't know whether you thought so or not. You basically avoided saying anything on RBT.
And for the record, I also didn't - and still don't - think that the case on RBT was crappy.
4) However, hewitt is attempting to avoid this by saying he doesn't want to be seen as scummy. Neat way to avoid answering a question. Basically, you answer to all questions by EB with "your questions are stupid and it's a trap". Well, perhaps I'm an idiot, but I would really want you to answer them.
5) I don't like it that Mae didn't really give any decent opinions yesterday. She joined in on the RBT wagon in the last minute, and that's about it. Disturbingly fence-sitting.
6) Almost forgot! I did actually read farside's meta. And yes, it does clear that point way-back-then of her being hot headed. Reading through her posts in the game she provided (where she was town), I see she was pretty agitated over stuff there too.-
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hewitt: EB asked the following: "Did you ever try to stop the crappy and forced wagon? If so, please reference it...if not, please explain why. "
This is the same thing that Mae asked, and later myself: why didn't you say the wagon on RBT was crappy if you thought so. I can't see what's so wrong about a town player asking that. Moreover, I find it strange that you don't say Mae and myself are scummy for asking the same thing.-
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It will take me some time to read everything Benmage wrote, but here are some responses to things directed to me:
Seriously? I think I've explained that several times already. I was pushing the issue of the "trying to look town", and then there were some other issues, but I think these were later in the game.Benmage wrote:So why did you VOTE: ?
Preference, I guess. I like using FoSs. Of course, they should be backed up by stuff. But I find them helpful in gauging people's standing on various issues.Benmage wrote:They [FoSs] dont explain shit anymore than saying someone is "scummy"/"acting scummy"
I simply don't understand what you mean by this. Care to rephrase?Benmage wrote:Word. Good point.. Terrible accidental bus tho.. You're buddy, EB, the claimed protagonist of lynch lurkers, hasnt mentioned them...tsk tsk.
I was trying to get the game out of the mud and understand what people think on various issues. I don't necessarily have to follow up on question immediately afterwards. But if farside/scien die at some point, the answers to these questions will be quite useful.Benmage wrote:Asking 10 go nowhere questions isn't making you look town..you fail to followup on questions you ask anyways. If you actually want genuine responses where there can be a back n forth...dont ask so many.-
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Benmage: I can live with you thinking I'm scum. What disturbs me quite a bit is that you seem certain that hewitt is town. Why is that? I'll admit to not reading everything you said yet (I shall eventually, don't worry), so perhaps you've explained it and I didn't see it. But why are you being so certain that hewitt is town?-
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Hello people, unfortunately I have more work to do than I originally thought, which means I'm not sure I'll be able to properly read the most of today until, umm, Thursday or even Friday. I'll do my best to read bits and pieces here and there. To speed things up, I'll appreciate if people concisely post questions directed specifically at me.
If Haylen thinks this is too much inactivity from me, I'll understand if she wishes to replace me.-
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Response to prod: Much like I said, I haven't got the time to properly catch up until Friday (maybe Thrusday evening if I'm lucky). If there are specific summarised questions to me concerning my previous play (that is, not my opinions on recent stuff, which I haven't really read yet), I can answer those.-
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