Mini 880 - Mini Quick and Dirty - Game Over

[Amished]

BB has sent me more than one role PM. I know the exact role of somebody other than myself, so I have to /out. I was really looking forward to playing with you all too, maybe some other time.

[Amished]

Vote: SerialClergyman

For taunting me before the game started!

I know you're just trying to antagonize me, and antagonists are bad guys.

Found one scum already, go me.

[Amished]

Rules suck.

Vote: SerialClergyman

[Amished]

Tsk tsk Scien, you even caught a mistake by Dram that other game (VP knows); and now you expect us to let you off with a mistake like not reading the game like that? Just this once; but that's cause I like orange and your avatar is a lot of that, even though it's the worst class in the game... >_>

[Amished]

AGar, if you aren't "Berserking" around this game, I *will* vote for you with an avatar like that...

[Amished]

1) AGar: Why do you only want PZ to come in? So you can 2fac him like you always do?

2) My wiki is slightly behind. If you want a more recent game of any alignment I'll let you know.

However, I rarely use meta (and think it's overall pretty worthless) so don't expect me to really take too much meta discussion. Any smart player can mess with their meta just enough to trick anybody; and I respect all of you as players so I really don't think it'll be an effective usage of time. You can find meta to fit any situation that you want to; so I'd rather take this game as it's own entity.

3) Raskol's 38 seems like a weak attempt to cast suspicion on something that's not inherently scummy; especially at this point of the game. Counterpoint to your {Raskol's} argument: If I find every "lurker" suspicious for not posting yet, should I then vote all of them? It's not going to affect anything.

I expect votes to be placed when there's a need for a vote. If people are active and will answer questions you post to them, don't really need a vote. If they do something so scummy you don't think that they could be town, sure, go ahead and vote. If they're avoiding questions deliberately or unintentionally, go ahead and vote. But if you think that somebody needs questioning, but you don't really have an overall scum-vibe from them; ekiM's reaction is just fine.

4) I'm tired I should be back later tonight to see any developments though

[Amished]

Mostly I'm lazy.

However, I feel that "meta" is used to back more weak cases than strong ones. It requires everyone to read every game that's referenced fully; as well as every other game that the person having a case against has played in as well. Meta of a role is a subjective thing at best; and can be cherry picked to oblivion at worst to make it look like a case is better than it is. If somebody wishes to read my games for enjoyment, you're both not reading the right games, and wasting your time, but go for it.

Also, anybody that's even close to competent (which I believe all of you are, and I like to think I am as well) is aware of their own meta and can play to one. If he (or anybody) builds a case and then wants meta as a "backup"; sure, I'll think about giving it to them then. However, if they're just gonna meta for the fuck of meta (putting your time out of thread instead of in thread) then I believe it's anti-town and should be discouraged.

[Amished]

Dinosaur meat shouldn't be that tasty then...

@PZ: 2fac is a Starcraft thing. AGar's avatar is a really good Starcraft player known for aggressiveness (nickname "Berserker") who plays the Terran race and used a lot of 2 factory (2fac) builds to be aggressive.

Also @PZ: I have a lot of stuff to say to you in a bit. :glare:

[Amished]

@Raskol: Also remember that Truant is my alt that I played one game with you for like 2 days. Percy should've been lynched D3... Christ.

Unvote
Vote: Sando

AGar, ODDin and Sando are the three people I've never read a game of so I'm looking more at them right now. Sando (not santos, his LOST play still gives me nightmares, but only if I was town *evil chuckle*) should've had plenty of time to post. GOGO bandwagon on a lurker.

I wouldn't have thought not posting a lot would be that much of an issue with the type of people that we have, either.

Hope you get better soon OJ.

[Amished]

Hrmph, Sando hasn't posted for over 2 weeks. So much for thinking he was nervous scum.

Unvote
Vote: SerialClergyman

Bandwagon ho!

[Amished]

EBWOP:

@Mod: Could you post slightly regular votecounts? Easier to see what people are doing with their votes.

[Amished]

I think you're misreading my intentions. I have no experience with Sando, but I thought that he was going to be devoted to the game like I am. Being the last to post in 4 pages seemed like he was nervous to not drop any scumtells. However, when I looked at whether or not he was actually around, he wasn't.

Without a votecount, I can't see a BW for myself, so I picked up on the last one mentioned (PZ -> you).

However, calling me scum for voting too much (votehopping nervously) and then landing on you looks like OMGUS, but without a vote cause you don't want to vote for somebody you know is pro-town in the real phase of the game.

[Amished]

Oh hey, we do.

/me gets used to different formatting for a VC.

[Amished]

I wanted to bandwagon somebody, and it didn't really matter who it was to me.

Before Sando, I basically viewed myself as not voting at all as I never remember who I vote in the RVS. It was a vote without meaning, so I didn't attribute anything significant to needing to remember it.

Have fun with your medals.... in the special olympics!

@Sando: What are your impressions on any one player?

[Amished]

@VP: I thought Sando had flaked (the two weeks without posting just looking at his recent posts). Bandwagoning somebody that I thought was going to get replaced is worse than a random vote, or even not voting at all. So I switched to somebody that was here and had votes on them.

[Amished]

Unless it's obviously joke-y, everyone thinks what they have to say is relevant. At this point it's pretty clear to me that he {Zito} believes that he has scum in his sights. Regardless, what is the point of ignoring somebody when they could make a good point for you in the future?

Look at LOST mafia. I'm pretty sure you ignored CKD when he was right about two different people being townie (regardless that he thought you were scum); and I ignored Santos because I knew he was the cop and I was scum. Ignoring only hurt the town in that game (ignoring Santos helped me a bit).

Do you really believe that ignoring people will help you?

[Amished]

Oh, I'm eagerly awaiting his case as well. I'm pretty sure I found out what he was looking at, but not going to jump the gun.

CKD was only really wrong about you, while right about CB and xRx I believe. If you listened to him, there'd be one less miller, I probably would've gotten shot, and ZA might not have won the game.

After a while I just stopped trying to even read what Santos was writing.

Back to this game: I guess it can't really be called ignoring if you're going to read his posts in the future and respond to them (which you imply that you're going to do with his case on SC). Saying that you're ignoring him is both a lie then; and makes you look pompous; which if that's what you're going for, knock yourself out.

If it's not going to help you, why do it? (disregarding scum gambits, etc.)

[Amished]

Jebus' lynch was with.. 3? people on it; and neither of the scum were bandwagoned at that point. A busdriver could cause a lot more confusion, and eliminated cop wifom (busdriven?) later in the game.

Anyways, back to this game: PZ's 2nd post (where he seriously votes for SC) is only after 3 *real* posts by SC. Does it really take that long to look over what another player discusses? Or why PZ thinks that it's scummy? In the situation where SC is your {VP} scumpartner, glossing over something that somebody else has found scummy in your partner is beneficial.

Also, saying that they haven't posted anything beneficial sets you up (as scum) later on to give you a precedent to dismiss some arguments that the person might have against you or one of your real scum buddies in the future, especially if they caught you with something rather strong in principle but they don't express it all that well.

There's scum motivation to do anything in the game.

[Amished]

I disagree with your first paragraph, ODDin. PZ's ISO 6 says that SC wagon is serious; and his vote for SC was in his 2nd post. I think that makes it pretty clear that he's moving out of RVS while still being joke-y.

(side note: I potentially have less to say to you {Zito} soonish)

(personal note: I remember and can form better opinions when not playing tired)

[Amished]

I don't pay attention to jokes either. I didn't even remember my joke to AGar about Berserking... If it's not related to the game at hand, I don't really focus on it. Hell, I forgot that there was a votecount on the page I was asking for regular votecounts on. I only pay attention to joke posts for the sake of joke posts later in the game since I view that to be

solidly

quite scummy. (until a recent game...)

[Amished]

huh? wha? I wasn't sleeping Mr. Smith! I think better with my eyes shut and my head on my desk!

/me writes note on my hand: My vote is on Dino-man (this is much different from Dino-toss)

[Amished]

I believe that PZ is entirely serious; and the reason for my vote is both for bandwagon purposes and because I'm pretty sure I see where PZ is going with his accusation; and it's a good reason. I hesitate to fulling state why SC is scummy; to not give PZ an out if his accusations are bogus but it's a good place to start.

ekiM's signal:noise ratio is also a good topic to explore:

@ekiM: What three posts are either the ones you most agree with, or think are suspicious? Could be a mixture of both, but what in the game content provided by other players do you feel strongly about?

[Amished]

I read it, and if it's a joke post, I forget it cause it's not a relevant part of the game at hand.

[Amished]

EBWOP:

@Sando: Who do you think is scummy and why?

[Amished]

144 = QFT

1) I explained my "vote switching", and have evidence (corroborated by the person that I had voted for) backing up what I saw.

2) VP has also stated that he's ignoring PZ's posts, while I just ignore jokes (if AGar didn't quote some of the starcraft stuff that I said to him, I'd probably have forgotten that too). Tell me how Starcraft (in this case) relates in any way to mafia, and I might actually try to remember it.

Why, then, am I more scummy than VP in your eyes?

[Amished]

I took my vote off of Sando before he "rematerialized", btw. Also, you should know that every vote has it's own responsibility. I expect myself to be responsible with my vote as soon as I get done with my first RVS one; and I feel I have been.

1. AGar = No problems with so far, but /agrees with Troll that you're obviously better than to diss yourself.

3. ekiM = I want to know where your suspicions lie.

4. ODDin = Is ekiM or PZ scummier for their actions so far?

5. Ojanen = still feel better soon.

6. Papa Zito = come back soon

7. Raskol = Thoughts on ... anybody?

8. Sando = Vote

9. Scien = come back soon

10. SerialClergyman = thoughts on anybody but me?

11. VP Baltar = read SC's question

12. Zorblag = From you, I see a lot of "reactions are interesting" type of posting, but it doesn't seem like you're forming an opinion out of it. Your vote is still on Sando for not having posted. What interactions do you think are the most scummy or.. something of your own "put out there" opinion on something.

[Amished]

@SC: I explained why I thought that he was scummy in my checking activity/unvote post, but whatever.

Zorblag hasn't voted for anybody that wasn't a lurker/hadn't posted yet. How does that rate compared to me?

[Amished]

@SC: I see similarities between situations and I try to understand what you feel is different. If I can get in your head, I can see when something skips a step of logic a bit easier later on. I try to push everything that I catch to a limit to put everyone into a more solid position. Town don't have a problem with backing themselves, while scum want the wiggle room.

Troll tends to think that passive play day one does result in less information for future days.

Perhaps passive no be the descriptor you would use to describe your day one strategy but it seems to be the playstyle you be defending. And of course that probably be largely irrelevant to Troll this particular game so long as you express opinions about the play that you see.

Bolded mine, and what I'm going for.

@Zorblag (is it ok if I call you Troll? It's easier to spell, we Amish haven't invented the printing press yet >_>): I just wanted to get more information out of every player. What you just posted is fine, especially at this point in the game. In fact, better than I expected as what you posted spawned more topic for discussion with the person I'm currently questioning, allowing me to see him in action as a fellow player rather than a moderator.

----

Hmm.

@SC: Who would you classify as pro-town thusfar? Just naming 2-3 is fine.

[Amished]

EBWOP: The last line in my paragraph to SC also tends to make me EBWOP a lot too =\ Sorry if the broken-up-ness is distracting.

[Amished]

EBWOP (again):

@SC: Mind voting for somebody not out of the RVS then? Or is everybody a null-read to you?

Speaking on overall terms, obviously the majority of the time I'm going to be town. Majority of the people, obviously that'll be the majority of the roles I get and time spent as. So when I'm attacked, especially from a pro-town standpoint, I attack the reasoning because I'm pro-town (or pretending to be, to encompass all situations); so the reasoning can't be that good.

In my attack of their reasoning, it sometimes helps me (though it generally helps other people more (looks at VP's lover's mafia game)) get a read on the motivation of the attacker. Did they misread something and then think of something based on that? Or was it intentional and trying to make something that I did that's pro-town look scummy; which generally comes from scum.

I think the only time I've been lynched has been as scum; so I'm not particularly used to getting attention on me. On the advice of another scummer, I am trying to adjust my playstyle in this area so it's still going through growing pains.

[Amished]

@SC: I just want a stance on you in some way. Scummy or Townie, you've said a lot about yourself, weakly reference people attacking you not helping your town reads; but haven't really taken a stand for/against something other than yourself/theory. It's the early game, we all have the same small amount of information to go on, so we need to get as much information out there as possible. You hanging back like this isn't inspiring to me either.

To clarify more: As scum I've been lynched twice. Once was under Truant when I made an obvious quickhammer to get my team into Lylo without much suspicion on my partner (we ended up winning) and one was under this account in Mafia 92; where I was investigated by sane-cop Ryan. Oh, one more, but that's more cause of Sajin making a great town-gambit; and me being overeager. (Lazy Neighborhood mafia)

[Amished]

Pretty sure I agree with everything that Raskol is saying.

@SC: I want to get this clear: You don't have reads on anybody (cause I've asked for both pro-town and scum reads) 8 pages in, when you're one of the more active people in thread. Is that about right?

I'm not asking you to manufacture anything, I want your honest opinion. Fine, fuck it, take me and Raskol. We're two of the people disagreeing with you/your playstyle the most right now. Do you think that Raskol is scum for his stance/motivation? Do you think I am? Or do you think that either of us are more likely town than scum? I'm not asking for God's truth here, I want an opinion. If you have to fake an opinion, then we're already a step ahead of where we were. I just want you to tell me your thoughts on the game. There's 150 posts worth of whatever to make any sort of opinion.

In comparison: Zorblag's post (when I asked him for his opinion) was perfectly fine, it allows us to talk about more stuff in the game and allows people to get a read on him without actually giving away what he looks at for town/scum reads. It wasn't anything ground-breaking. It was just his opinion on the game. It doesn't even really need to be about the people, it could be about the pace (too slow, too fast, whatever). Give us something.

[Amished]

Anyways, I'm heading to bed. Don't know how active I'll be this weekend, we're celebrating Thanksgiving early.

[Amished]

@SC: It's not wrong cause if you're making up something, it won't look right and scum have to make up scummy if they don't want to buss.

Oh, I will talk about other stuff, you were just around right now and somebody that I had the most difference of opinion on.

Yes, Troll's response brought up more discussion about you, but at the very least, it's allowed him to get a town read on you. I am leaning that way as well, so the discussion helped the town. Posts don't have to accuse somebody of being scum to be helpful.

Ahh, Sando, about time.

@Sando: You might want to read 143-145 again. First, you gave us words to describe yourself from what you've done, then *Raskol* said you were a fence-sitter, etc. and then I agreed with him.

Couple things I have a problem with:

I'm not one, and you're not going to get me lynched on it before I form strong enough opinions to show that, so I really don't care.

1) I'm not voting for you, so I'm not going to "get you lynched on it".
2) I haven't voted for SC for not voting for somebody in serious, so what would make you think you're "special" enough to earn my vote?

Every single time I get asked for them and provide them I get accused of being scum (as town), broad reads on everyone are way way way too easy to spin into anything you want.

I think this game has already provided evidence exactly contrary to this opinion. Troll's post, that I've previously mentioned is vague but I didn't call him scum for that.

You actually want to get into this game instead of applying your newbie experiences to more advanced players?

[Amished]

If you're town, I don't expect you to have to make anything up, your opinions will be genuine.

I don't think I've called you scum for not having an opinion, I've questioned you about your read on the game/anything just so we can get information *to get a read on people*. Asking for you to analyze people as except for OJ, we've all posted. If OJ is scum, she's not the only one so there's scum in here somewhere.

I feel like we're going around in circles. Without asking other people their opinions, there's nothing to spur on the game and get a read from. Accuse people for weak reasons, see how they react, you don't have to push for their lynch right away just cause you're voting for them out of the RVS.

Finally, get your read then, if you're not going to accuse somebody of being scum. Just don't criticize my style of play for accusing somebody and then getting a read on their reactions.

[Amished]

I have a lot to say to you, Sando. A lot of what I was planning on saying Raskol has taken care of, but there are some more points that I want to make. Don't have time right now though.

[Amished]

I just have time for a quick post.

@VP: Ignoring jokes (parts of a post that isn't game related) and ignoring whole posts when the post is about people in the game and possibly the actions that a person sees and wants attention directed towards are two very different things.

[Amished]

Finally have a chance to catch up. This first section will probably be edited due to other people realizing the holes in Sando's position and saying what I'd want to say, so try to ignore gaps in grammar/tense (they annoy the hell out of me).

@Sando: Starting with ISO 190 (page 8):
1) I didn't ask you for a rundown. I wanted your top suspect because you weren't voting for anybody. There's a big difference. Also, due to my explanation below; asking for information does help instead of looking like busy work, "when bugger all is happening" in your words.

(I think this comes up later, but it ties in as well) I ask for people to say what their primary "suspect" is so that we can all further explore what each other are thinking, and give a wide base to see what we can find that's scummy. If more people explore it, and the person has a townie response (logical reason for acting the way that they did) then we can get a read on them because of it. If they overreact, then we can explore that and see why (which I typically don't interpret to be a townie reaction. Scum (more towards the non-experienced spectrum, but it's worth a shot here) tend to not like having the spotlight on them; so when somebody brings something minor up, and they overreact it's worth looking into. (ODDin's 2nd paragraph in post 200 ties in perfectly with this, agree with that 100%)

2) The "about time comment". Look at the time line. I said that after your ISO 4. Your first 3 posts do absolutely nothing for the game for 4 days, so I was really looking forward to you actually contributing. That's beyond a lurker timeline, when you're actually here.

191: {You find rundowns less scummy in newbie games.} It's been gone over that I wasn't looking for a rundown, but I like how you think only scum ask people for their suspicions.

193: Do you even know why I "vote-switched"? Do you know who, if anybody, has voted for more people than I have?

197: (this is broken up into numbers)

1) No, just cause you think 1-2 people are scummy does not automatically translate into you thinking everyone else is pro-town. Absolutely does not work that way.

3) Asking you to vote for somebody and give reasoning is a general question? This is after I wanted to know where your suspicions were, and you said to look where you were voting.

--page 9--

(Not sando related:) I don't see the points of SC against ODDin really holding ground. VP's 232 is basically what I was gonna say about the 1.5 day point, I don't really agree with the other points either.

Back to Sando:
212: --edit out-- Covered by VP Baltar in 217

(This was @Scien from Sando): Saying "6 people are scum" is both not what I asked for and a stupid/scummy idea to actually say. Obviously in a 12 person game 6 scum is too much; so you're clearly fabricating cases there. 1-2 is all I really wanted to know. As an aside: I've only really seen one scum-linking case work in all my time here (and that just happened in a game that just finished, Hellsing Mafia (mini-theme)). I think everyone should be judged based on their own play as that will turn up scum more often than not in my opinion.

@Troll: Ahh, yeah. I got more of a weak pro-town vibe from SC after the questions, so I thought that you might've looked at the situation the same way I did. Sorry for the confusion.

Sando 216: Ok, so then what are your reasons for voting me. The most prominent part of your point against me that I recall is that I was "whinging for your vote". If that's all, or if there's more; I'd certainly like to hear it.

@AGar: {Why I want opinions out right away} I feel it breeds a better D1 atmosphere to actually look for people who aren't operating on the towns agenda, and get people to talk about something. Low activity games hurt the town. If I get everyone to talk about something, then it's helpful to my faction.

@SC {giving reads} Then explain that you really don't have solid reads at this point. Nothing is sticking out to you, whatever. As town, I definitely don't expect you to make anything up.

--page 10--

@Sando (end of 217): This will be the main reason for my vote at the end of this post (I realize it's a long one). You're essentially asking for people that SC has as pro-town. This is much much worse than asking for scumspects. If there's a wagon on somebody that SC doesn't mind seeing lynched, you'll see that he's not pro-town enough in SC's eyes. Scum only benefit from that type of information.

@OJ: Meta and an occurance that happened in another game aren't exactly the same thing. I was trying to get a point across about a situation that I saw that I thought hurt town. I was pointing out why ignoring people's more serious posts (that turned out to not be serious at all.. -_- ) is a bad idea. It doesn't really correlate to this game as I'm not giving him town points for saying he'll ignore people (like he did in that game as town) like a normal "meta" would, I just wasn't in the game at the point where VP said that he was going to ignore CKD to attack the behavior.

I meant that I've never played nor read a game of Sando/AGar/ODDin. I've read one or two of the rest of you that I haven't played with; or played with them. I like to get a feel for how active they are, primarily, and look for a super gambit or something. If they're just solid, that's fine too and I like reading the games.

My vote on SC was initially due to wanting a bandwagon (and forgetting the VC on the page); and I thought due to his post on page 3 that he was going to set up a push for a cop claim early on and try to dismiss his action as not scummy because he brought it up D1.

PZ's retraction gives me scum vibes as well.
@PZ: We have 10 pages to go on, now that you don't have a case (that you never really had), what do you think of some of the debates that have gone on recently?

Unvote
Vote: Sando

[Amished]

I think that if the wagon took off more; it would've been easy to condemn anybody else that really hopped on you, passing himself off as just trying to start a BW (null-tell). As nothing happened, now he {PZ} really doesn't have any content in the game since the BW wasn't SRS BZNZ.

[Amished]

@Troll: No, the way that ekiM and SC were talking about proper time to claim (page 3), the way SC was talking was that I thought he was setting up pushing for claiming earlier rather than later on .. day 4 for example. He {SC} mentioned how he pushes for massclaim earlier and brought up other examples of why a cop should claim early, etc.. I thought (and it might be a possibility, but I'm not sold on it anymore) that he was setting himself up to not look like scum for pushing for a cop claim or anything down the road a couple of days.

[Amished]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking PZ saw after going back to look at a "serious" vote.

[Amished]

Yeah, I typically don't like people explaining away "typically scummy" behavior due to anything. Most of the time I just have to keep my eye on them, it was just due to the earliness of you explaining yourself that I didn't have much else to work with to make me move my vote.

[Amished]

EBWOP: Cause the way I see it, scum have to try to have a longer term goal (staying alive and then being able to mislynch convincingly) rather than just trying to lynch scum that day like town does.

[Amished]

@Sando: That's fine for him (SC) to eliminate his own suspects, but you don't have to ask him for it so you-scum knows who you don't have to buss if SC-town is wrong.

Also, you missed my point completely. If/when he votes for somebody, yes, I expect him to explain it. I don't expect him to come off with a "you're not in my town list" for the sole explanation as obviously there can't be the rest of the game in that list. Asking him reasoning for a vote is *far* from asking him for his town list.

@SC:

{switching reason for vote} Yes, I voted for you because it was there, and I wondered why there was a wagon being pushed for you. I looked and saw something that was slightly scummy (which was more than anything else in the game that I noticed). So it turned out that I had a better reason to vote you after a reread.

{keeping quiet about a tell} In case PZ was scum and just pushing for the sake of pushing (then wanted to give a better reason or whatever to keep it moving) I didn't want to give him a free reason to keep up the pressure if he didn't have anything on you.

Also, some people don't view your stance on claims to be scummy, and he (PZ) saw something else that he felt was scummy. Not everyone has the same "tells" or something that they look for. Obviously I miss stuff that scum do, and other times I think a townie is doing something scummy.

{"future rubbish argument"} What's the motivations of a post like that (future actions)? Regardless of your (SC) alignment, you pointed it out now so that if/when you do it later, you won't look as scummy for it. Right?

[Amished]

@Sando: I did not realize that you knew SC out of game/extensively in game to garner that sort of "meta-experience" with him. Probably why I didn't understand a damn thing you were trying to accomplish with that.

@SC: How much do you know of Sando?

[Amished]

@VP: I've only ever seen SC in one game, and that's ongoing and not from a player perspective.

[Amished]

@Sando: "I know Serial very well IRL" does not equate to "I talk with him about mafia-theory and play with him a lot on site to know that this is a very effective way to judge his alignment and get his reads on the game". I've played with somebody I've known IRL before and mafia theory or anything like that hasn't come up, we just like playing; and not necessarily with each other.

[Amished]

@SC: Your vote wasn't on me yet? What took you so long to finally place it, and why after OJ posted?

@OJ: First, I want to quote the relevant part of the post by SC that was immediately before my "question" that had a little idea marker by it.

...

I think it would - I generally rarely bus and like to keep my scumteam intact. And even if you had to lose a scum member, you at least want to bus and get some town points for it. In that scenario, you wouldn't even get any town points for losing a partner. I think that a semi-random scum lynch in that manner would be a real hassle for scum.

I was posing a semi-joking question (which I didn't hassle him {SC} for not answering, cause I wasn't expecting it) to see if he would openly give away his scum team if he was scum.

The rest of 167 (by me) is much more on topic, and actually pertains information that I wanted to know/relevant to the game.

[Amished]

@Sando: Because of context.

Like I said, if he had answered and flipped scum later on, it would've been a good point to look at then. As such, I wasn't really looking for an answer beyond him telling me who his scumbuddies were if he was oblivious enough to not see what I was doing.

When I find somebody asking for town reads and being serious about it; they shoot up on my scumdar. Seriously, read 161-162 again for yourself and then judge how I meant to ask the question. Do you really think my motivation really was to get him to divulge his town reads if he's town?

[Amished]

I missed it

[Amished]

Unless you're talking about the one in ISO 6 (I don't see another one). I've been watching him, and I'm not certain on his alignment yet. I see things that say town, and some things that say scum.

[Amished]

I never said ODDin's wasn't scummy. That initially sparked my interest; but like I said since then I've gotten conflicting vibes from him. I'm not really getting those from you which is why I'm focusing on you at the moment.

[Amished]

Obviously not everything that somebody does is scummy. I believe that I put out what I needed to against you. As for my current proactivity; I was hoping that the people promising to post content soon would give me something to work with, but sadly people not around can't contribute at all.

@Sando: Lately you've called Charlatan scummy, and briefly questioned why Troll was voting for you. Coming from you; I don't know how to take "I'm not proactive enough".

WRT ODDin: I see more pro-town activity to put him behind you on my scumlist. He's also being attacked (raskol indicated that he might vote for ODD, OJ had some content against him; PZ's vote is on him) which occupies his time defending himself. I want him to give more of an opinion on others, but until he has time I'm kinda hamstringed in that regard. Most of what I question about ODD is being addressed by others, and I don't like to parrot other people's questions if they're basically the same questions that I would ask.

Would you like to question me more, question somebody else around (which I'm not sure there really is, and 2 days til deadline isn't a happy time for people go go V/LA; especially with a nolynch hovering overhead if we can't come to a consensus), or try to poke a lurker with 2 days left. I didn't think 14 pages was that big of a deal, but I guess it is. Maybe I just need less of a life.

At this point, I'm worried most about the fact that I think some of the minimal posters are scum and the actives are town just attacking each other. The ekiM/Charlatan slot is a bad victim of this, Scien lately is bad for this, SC this week is similar as well.

[Amished]

I'm not ignoring it; I thought that your 332 was for something more recent/did it again. Both actions are scummy, but there have been a couple things from ODDin that I've seen that was pro-town which give me pause when I haven't seen *as much* of that from you.

Agreed on the apathy.

[Amished]

@Sando: Your asking for town-read from SC is a null-tell for me now, cause I do believe you would do that as town as well. Mostly, I still dislike how you overreacted when you first posted; when I wasn't even voting for you. The misrepresentation of what was said by me (and Raskol, IIRC) is still what jumps out the most out of everybody. Since then, you've been much more passive. I think that's indicative of you trying to back off in a self-preservation tactic.

@Scien: Yes, I thought that SC was going to try to set up pushing for a PR claim early in the game. I didn't like him explaining that he pushes for claims early. I feel the motivation behind that type of post is to make them look less scummy later on for pushing the idea. I feel that it's more likely that a townie would suggest it, and list their reasoning why a claim would be beneficial (and related to the current game) when you actually push for a massclaim. Regardless, I don't think SC ever said anything in response to my question: "What's the motivation of saying that you push for massclaims early?" I don't see how the answer can be anything *but* "I didn't want myself to look scummy when I'll likely push for it by talking about it now".

[Amished]

@OJ: I believe you asked the question posed to me at the end of 349 (at least I remember writing a response); but I like to get a feel for competency judged from my perspective, what they pick up on so I know to focus on something else if I get a town read on them as they're better in a certain area of scumhunting than I am.

@Char: WRT ODDin pro-town; if you go through his ISO; other than the town tells, most of 6 I agree with. Questions bad reasoning, sticks to his convictions about an early vote. 8 was pretty good too, with the TT fallacy question, he looks like he's legitimately trying to figure out what another person is saying rather than assuming, attacking him for it, etc. like I would expecting scum to do. Generally his defense of his actions looks like town.

@ODDin: The "townlist" from Sando became null after I got confirmation from SC that they know each other pretty well, and only if they're scum together would they have to lie about what Sando would or would not do.

@Sando: {Passive} The problem is that you're really only responding/interacting with me and SC. You're not questioning others when I pointed it out in one of my last posts. Attacking one person does not indicate proactivity, it's mostly just tunneled. You can attack somebody, but you still need to think about the overall picture.

@SC: I disagree almost completely with all of your 371. Everyone has to take responsibility for their own vote. Each are weighed identically; as without one or the other, a lynch never happens. It's pro-town to admit to responsibility for (often) the only ability that you have.

@Char: I suppose it does presuppose that town-SC wouldn't explain it, but if you plan on explaining it, why would you have to preface yourself by saying you're going to be asking for massclaims earlier than "normal" on D1? If you already plan on explaining it when you feel it's necessary, that's all that you really need to do IMO.

*caught up*

@SC: I'm confused, are you calling PZ anti-town or scummy? You say you don't confuse the two; but you seem to be implying both.

[Amished]

So, a bad neutral? Still a weird as hell viewpoint IMO, but ok.

[Amished]

Yeah, I normally just lynch VI's to give them a swift "punishment" to try to deal with the things that they did wrong that game.

[Amished]

@Mod: I will be going on vacation from the 30th of November to the 8th of December (halfway through the day til past deadline). I've had this set up for a long time (actually going to Germany for a Christmas market tour); and it's not something I can (or would want to) get out of. If you need to replace me today; I understand and apologize

[Amished]

Yeah, this was easily my worst game I've ever played. If you check the times, pretty much every one of my posts was late at night when I wasn't paying attention. That doesn't work out that great when I need to be on top of my game as scum

GG guys, and it was me that caught a PR tell from SC at the end of the day (hey, I WAS right!)

[Amished]

Doesn't matter to me, I have one ongoing, and another I just replaced into. If you (/me looks at ABR) want me, that is.

[Amished]

I have no idea what any of the open setups are, nor really care.