Mafia 104 - Revenge of the Crimson King - Game!

[Merkabah]

The only time I've played with you you've been scum!:

Vote: Tarhalindur

-A

[Merkabah]

I'm with Glork on this one. Exalt is scum. The fact that he wants to accuse Glork of OMGUS seals it. I'd vote, but we decided in our hydra that Amish would do all of the voting for clarity's sake.

My intention is there, however.

-VPB

[Merkabah]

I'm with Glork on this one. Exalt is scum. The fact that he wants to accuse Glork of OMGUS seals it. I'd vote, but we decided in our hydra that Amish would do all of the voting for clarity's sake.

My intention is there, however.

-VPB

So you're 2 people?

Yeah, this is a hydra account between Amished and VP Baltar.

@wicked-I don't know. Do you?

[Merkabah]

Unvote
Vote: Exalt

[Merkabah]

3. I fail as town, so yeah... I do have a guilty conscience.

What? I don't remember seeing this from you before.

MonkeyMan has made bad attacks like this before in the last game I played with him, but he seems to be doing it more this game.

But was he town or scum?


While Ray has been wordy, I don't think it's overdefensive just yet. He is a typically long winded poster.

[Merkabah]

@Ray: it's distracting.

MMan and Exalt are pretty clearly scum together. Exalt, most of your 96 gives me terrible vibes (especially the semi-defense/semi-bussing of MMan) and the quick counterwagon to MMan doesn't make me warm and fuzzy either. I clearly made my intention clear that we thought you were scummy and I had an opportunity to check in and vote. To ignore that and then OMGUS me also screams scum.

Vote stays on Exalt for now, but MMan deserves to swing right here and right now. His continued vague and self-undermining of his own attacks are pretty clearly scum attacks as well. Swimmer seems town from the people that are against her.

-A

[Merkabah]

@Ray: Swimmer only gets a town read due to the people attacking her. Exalt, EMP, and MMan all on her does not make me think that's a valid wagon. Exalt/MMan will be coming up in this post somewhat, and EMP's "reason" is nonexistent. Tar's vote is random yet, so that doesn't count either.

So let me get this straight... you get scum vibes from me because I think swimmer4life jumped on MM's weak case and pushed it hard, all the while he was buddying MM... while in the meantime MM tries pushing swim far away? Really?

Usually buddying is from one town and one scum leeching off that town to "look" town if that player flips... You almost NEVER see two scum buddying like this... ever.... ever ever ever.... But you definitely see a lot of the "leech" buddying that I was talking about...

so I am voting the leecher... and this gives you a scum vibe? Maybe you need to read up on past mafia games and try proving me wrong, cuz I'm not

I didn't realize I had the power to start a soft bandwagon, but whatever floats your boat here. I have one vote and my opinions, which I will speak Everyone else's votes are their own.

What I do not like is your chainsaw defense for swimmer here. What posts give you a town vibe from swimmer over MM? I think the opposite. Swim is using the exact bad case MM had and tried to attach to his hip with it, and you think swim is town and MM is scum? How do you figure?

You are looking like scum trying to protect your buddy.


Oh yes, and I OMGUS voted you because you OMGUS voted me after I called you scum earlier. I did it to piss you off, which seems to have worked just fine It quite clearly wasn't a serious nor final vote, but alas, anyone with any common sense could have figured that one out. I will actually make a case against you if I decide to lynchvote your scummy ass. Are you still going on about that RVS vote with Wicked now?

Also, if you think MM is scum, why are you voting me? Are you hoping someone will get lynched and you will have no blame for the wagon? Your vote on me reads more like an excuse not to vote on a wagon more than anything. Why are you playing so safe? Scum much?

I can't even count how many things are wrong with this post.

By paragraph:
1) No. The initial primary reason for the vote was due to your calling Glork's vote on you OMGUS. Post 55 where you say only scum freak out over RVS votes (where's your vote now again?) is bullshit as well. You haven't taken a stand that goes beyond the "scumtell handbook"; which indicates to me that you don't want to look for something scummy in others. I could go on if you really want to pick out a random reason why you should die in a fire.

2) So what of MMan's buddying of you? (reference 96 (you calling him scum, but not scummiest, and s4lyfe is scummiest) then 116 MMan voting for s4lyfe for about the weakest reason I've ever seen) Why does MMan pushing a weak case like that get a free pass (you clearly thought he was scummy) when s4lyfe is being the scummiest in the game?

3) It does give me a scumvibe because you fail to apply it consistantly. That's not the only reason I'm still voting for you, but it is a factor.

4) I don't think I said anything about how other people's vote reflected on you other than MMan (and that was more now than then, so I have no idea what you're on about here)

5) You also attacked MMan (both newbscum), so am I chainsawing for him too? Does that do it for you? How about the fact that I was voting for you for legit reasons before you attacked swimmer? Does that still constitute chainsaw defense for you? God I hope not.

6) Your OMGUS of *me*, while factors in, obviously cannot be counted as a reason for the initial vote. Your calling Glork's vote on you OMGUS is the OMGUS I see most.

7) Cause I (unfortunately) only have one vote. You're both just as likely to hit scum from my perspective, so it really doesn't matter which of you I vote for. I want my perspective on your play known as it seems to be flying under the radar for some reason.

Next post: If MMan is town, then I still look to you as being scum as you're scummy on your own (as is MMan); and I see a connection between you two. If you really want to push my "defense" of s4lyfe (which is me saying she's likely town from the people attacking her, while I have plenty of points against the people attacking her), knock yourself out. Or is there more to this defense than I know of?

Clearly s4lyfe (if scum) does not reflect upon me; most notably because she's not defending me/not applying her scumtells on me which you're doing to MMan. There's nothing mutual, and my "defense" mostly applies to where people I already think are scum are voting.

Then ad-hom, good for you, I hope you now feel better about insulting people over teh internetz.

And then another misrepresentation of why I'm voting for you, and defending against the stupidest possible reason for voting for somebody.

-A

Also, Ray's defense wasn't that scummy.

[Merkabah]

Monkey took his early case far too serious. It was a weak case, which is fine for getting the game moving. But if he was just trying to get the game moving, he would have known that and not been so utterly convinced of it.

Thank you for recognizing this.

I stated several times that my case was being exaggerated.

It was never meant to be taken as a "me or him" situation. I was not "utterly convinced". I use my words with conviction and use my votes liberally, even in early game. Putting pressure on people gets reactions, and that was my ultimate goal.

Pads gave MM an easy out, and he took the bait. Please, MM, show me these "several times" when you said you were exaggerating your case just to put pressure on him.

Agreed. Pads is a likely 3rd scum on the team.

Lies

[Merkabah]

Also, I want to make it clear, while we both think you're scum (MMan), neither of us say it's about the vote. It's your other reactions.

[Merkabah]

Ok, so first off, your ad hom has no place in the thread. If you think it makes you look intelligent or more persuasive, you're sadly mistaken. Secondly, I apologize as this will be a long post. The bolded is an extremely important part that if you want to skip a wall of text, I ask that you at least read that part of it; as I feel it's highly relevant.

Now to the post.

{swimmer4lyfe town due to attackers} When I made my initial "s4lyfe is town due to the attackers, it was at the top of the previous page (7).

Tarhalindur, Empking, Exalt, Cyberbob, MonkeyMan576, Glork is the list.

Tar's vote

is from RVS and we haven't heard from him yet, so that doesn't count

is due to him thinking that s4l is newbscum or an alt (used in an attempt to find that out. EMP's vote didn't have any reason, MMan and you are scum for us; leaving 2 out of 6 that could be town that bandwagoned due to the "case". Just because Glork is voting for somebody doesn't mean that we have to vote for that person. Also, you were the 2nd on the wagon, do you need to unvote when your buddies vote with you?

(Do you have any proof that you're Exalt and not somebody that hacked into his account? Your attack against me is as stupid as that question, and will not be answered.)

I also think it's classic that you say I'm misrepping you.

{our initial vote on you} Yes, I know you called it omgus. The fact that you relegated it to omgus was the sole reason that I voted for you. This was before 55; or anything else you really said. This makes your

So let me get this straight... you get scum vibes from me because I think swimmer4life jumped on MM's weak case and pushed it hard, all the while he was buddying MM... while in the meantime MM tries pushing swim far away? Really?

patently wrong. All of this was after the vote and obviously could not be the reason for the vote in the first place. Therefore, you are wrong, and it's not a false dilemma like you falsely accuse me of.

The scumtell handbook is you saying that OMGUS is scummy (which clearly isn't always the case), and siding with another player is scummy (which also isn't always the case). Situation: Glork posted once, you vote for him for not posting at all. You're clearly wrong, Glork sees it and votes for you. You then call it OMGUS (even though you voted for him for wrong reasons) and admit your mistake. Why did you push the vote for you (which was valid, you voted for Glork for a wrong reason) as OMGUS rather than give it the credibility that it deserved? You overreacted to the vote much moreso than Glork, and you also overreacted to our vote on you. By that logic, you're scum.

{MMan scum} This is the first that you even suggested that you would vote for MMan. Your 165 fails to note that MMan is a "leecher" (to use your term) of you. You don't mention MMan other than portraying him as the victim of a weak wagon (s4lyfe pushing a weak case implies that you think the full case against MMan is weak). Now that you're called on it, you switch your stance to "you don't know who to vote for" giving s4lyfe's position credit for attacking somebody you think is scum as well. You not applying the "leeching" equally is what I'm accusing you of. This is what I see as a connection between you two.

{you think my vote wasn't "legit"} You quote post 46 by us stating reasons that we believe you're scum. What more do you need to make a vote legit as it took away our RVS vote on Tarhalindur? The case is still legit because it still happened. You can't erase the fact that you posted what you did, and just because other stuff has happened does not lesson that reason for voting for you. Your accusations have looked like you're just throwing them out there to look town rather than believing in them.

{Buddies with Glork} By now I think you're intentionally misremembering the game. I sided with him over you in the initial vote (because you called it OMGUS while also realizing that you fucked up and lied in thread (probably unintentionally)).

Glork voting you for saying he's a lurker is a lie and why he voted for you. That does not constitute OMGUS as there's a valid reason that the vote was placed on you.

I haven't seen that much scummy from Glork while I have from others. Am I scummy with over half the player list because I haven't called them scummy?

{Flying under the radar} Let's look at the votes, shall we? 135 is the last votecount, and you are only being voted by Glork and Myself at that point. Since then, Glork has voted for S4L instead, while nobody joined me in voting for you. When I view you to be the scummiest player, and nobody is voting for you; you're flying under everybody else's radar.

{Analogy} Unfortunately, your analogy misses a lot of points, so perhaps you shouldn't strawman it down like that.

MMan voted for Swimmer4Lyfe in 116. This is after your 96 where you first mention S4L. Here's the exact quote, too:

My opinions are that swimmer4life is by far more scummy than Monkeyman. They would both have to be newbscum to have the same bad arguments on the same player at the same time. I fail to believe this, so I think swimmer just jumped with the first case he/she saw and ran with it. With it being such a bad case, I would say he/she is possible newbscum.


UNVOTE

VOTE: swimmer4life

You've tried to say that S4L is scum for buddying. Why did you not mention any of this when you voted for her? It's cause you're trying to justify your initial vote with later evidence. You call them both "newbscum" but you fail to believe this. You then run with Swimmer over MMan (not because of buddying) but because Swimmer ran with the first case she saw and ran with it. Swimmer's case was against RayFrost for being overdefensive. I'm pretty sure that Swimmer posted this *first* in 58, while MMan first voted for RayFrost in 63. Swimmer must've looked into the future to run with that case that she saw, eh? Your whole reasoning behind your initial vote is based on a falsehood that you couldn't be assed to check

. You don't apply your scumtells accurately at the very least.

Finally, I'm not stopping you from attacking Swimmer. I'm just attacking you. I haven't tried to defend her (not sure where you got that from) I just said that I do not agree with the people that have allied against her due to me thinking that they're scum independently. If you want to keep attacking her, go for it. But I will also attack who I want to attack. Being attacked does not preclude you from doing any attacking at all.

[Merkabah]

Ok, this is VPB. Just so you know, most of the posts in the game (including the last couple of gigantic ones) have been by Amished. I think he's getting a bit frustrated at the nonsense Exalt spews every time he is posting. Anyhow, we'll try and cut down on the length of our posts.

---

- We should lynch swimmer.

Based on what really? The arguments made thus far haven't been very coherent, imo. Give me a bullet list of why swimmer is heads and tails a better lynch than everyone else thus far.

- Merkabah's defence of swimmer is a poor one; I especially like the part where he tries to deny that he's defending her

While I think Amished did defend swimmer a bit by calling him town (which I personally am not as certain of), the attacks simply are weaksauce from what I have seen. We're not going to buy into a lynch simply because it's popular, especially when our top two scum reads (MM and Exalt) are on it.

I just don't think that he's taking into account the possibility of a bus (which given swimmer's pretty terrible play is a definite chance IMO).

It's a possibility, but I think they are both on a bit early for me to really believe that is what is happening. Also, please look at both of their reasons for getting on. They are horrible. Could be a bus, but I'd rather lynch the person making the badly reasoned vote than the person who is being badly voted and stands on outside chance of being bussed.

I'm more accusing Merkabah of being biased toward you in the way he focuses on how everything I do is wrong, and everything you do is right. He obviously knows you better, which is fine, but he is refusing to look at both sides of the coin.

That's not the case at all, actually. I (VPB) have only one game with Glork (ongoing) and Amished has never played with him as far as I know. Nor do we know him in real life. The simple fact is that you attacked him for crappy reasoning and then persisted even after you were proven wrong. That's why we are attacking you, not because of any connection with Glork.

-VPB

[Merkabah]

Cyberbob, how is it a lie? I disagreed with Amished saying he didn't defend him at all because he did call him town.

However, that is apart from the point that the case on swimmer sucks, which you conveniently ignored. Feel free to answer my questions now.

-VPB

[Merkabah]

Oh, I read your vote post. Here, for refreshing, is your reason (singular):

Did you perhaps consider that you're getting flak because your read on Ray is just flatout bad? You've got a serious self-fulfilling prophecy going on here, my friend. I'd bet a lot of money that if you'd been ignored you'd be going on about "omg scum coverup I'M ONTO SOMETHING HERE" instead.

So, you are voting him because his case on ray is bad and he's pouting about it not getting attention?

Not a lynchable offense in my book. Other than that, you just call him "pretty terrible" in that post, which couldn't be more vague if you wanted it to.

Feel free to give me that bullet list when you are ready.

These three paragraphs are some pretty hardcore defence. You're trying to worm your way out of your initial attempts to lie about it by playing these little semantic games, but it's pretty clear what you were/are doing.

It's not a defense so much as it is pointing out how weak the wagon is. If you can explain it better, please proceed. I'm a reasonable person and if you bring a good case I might change my mind. As it is, I don't see any valid reason to have our vote there as opposed to MM or Exalt, who have acted genuinely scummy.

[Merkabah]

^VPB

[Merkabah]

Thing is, you are accountable for your partner's actions and behaviors. If Amished defended Swimmer, then Merkabah defended swimmer. "Amished defended Swimmer but I didn't" is irrelevant.

Yeah, and I fully recognize that. I'm trying to keep any differences of opinion within our hydra to our QT for the sake of everyone else's read on us. I probably shouldn't have said that in the thread.

I do stand by Amished's stance that the attacks on swimmer aren't that great. Maybe you can help me since you're on the wagon Glork, what is the real case here because I'm just not seeing it.

[Merkabah]

I just want to point out that Exalt was intentionally trolling another player to get them emotional. Emotional town and emotional scum will both go through their arguments faster and potentially cause mistakes. Exalt can then hop on any mistakes, creating a circular argument and distract the rest of the town (CB + RayFrost both have commented on the length of posts). None of this is pro-town or civil behavior, so until Exalt can contain himself, I will not read his posts and have VP address him to keep this thread under control

@Glork: I want to touch on your point about the chainsaw. MMan's vote on swimmer is weak, while CyberBob's is also extremely weak. EMP's vote can hardly be called a vote due to the lack of reasoning. I've expressed my opinion on Exalt's vote for Swimmer, so out of the wagon, there are three bad votes on somebody. It is due to this, and this only (I have never tried to defend anything that Swimmer has said, and I agree with VP that RayFrost was not being overdefensive WRT S4Lyfe's original vote) that I would put s4L in a non-scum category. The poor attacks look a lot more like scum attacking her {swimmer} than town, and I don't feel that they would buss like that this early in the game. You {Glork} seem to have the best thought out case, so I want to renew the request to put a list of points that against her that you feel says that swimmer is scum.

[Merkabah]

I played with you in March to the first week in April of this year. (Newbie 741). I've only modded one game since then, it's ongoing, and you're not in it. In 741, you didn't call anybody near the names you called me; so I don't know where you're getting your "I should know better from".

I have not seen you play like this (741 still being the only experience I have with you, and you cop did not piss anybody off in thread like you did to me). I just read through your 34 game posts in that game, you failed to insult a single person like you have done to me. Please, back up your "I should have meta" argument with more concrete facts.

-A (239 is by me as well)

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10605 link.

[Merkabah]

lol, if anyone is not convinced Exalt needs lynching, please read these past two posts. For somebody who believes scum get emotional, you're certainly incriminating yourself.

I think it should be noted that his wild emotional outburst came immediately after he was proven wrong, which seems to be his MO.

Also, die in a fire is pretty common internet shorthand for STFU. Just for your own edification.

More Exalt voting would be a good move at this point.

[Merkabah]

^VPB

[Merkabah]

@Mod/Exalt: As I (Amished) was the one that said the inflammatory remark to Exalt, I wish to apologize to you (and to Exalt). As it has been said, it's a relatively common internet term, which can be loosely translated to "I think you're full of crap, leave me alone". I didn't mean anything personal; but I was very highly annoyed with you in this game, and I stand by my thoughts (and Glork's points) that it's not all that effective of a playstyle at times; and it does have it's scum benefits.

@Tarhalindur: I agreed with your initial post reasoning that swimmer was an alt (in which case alignment wouldn't be taken into account) or newbscum. I felt it was more an alt than anything; but with that "50/50" chance of being alt/newbscum, what primarily *at that time* make you lean towards the latter/make you feel the need to vote for swimmer?

@Glork: I'm pretty sure VP agrees with me; but with your 3 points:
1) What made swimmer thinking that RayFrost being overdefensive looked like she was scum rather than just thought that that was a scumtell? I agree with the point that overdefensiveness isn't always a scumtell, and neither VP nor I thought that Ray was scummy for his reaction. However, I felt that swimmer was at least trying to scumhunt, which isn't really all that scummy.
2) Agree with she failed to meet that proof that Ray was overdefensive.
3) Can you think of a case where somebody of any alignment gets riled up for having multiple votes put on them for playing like they would as town? (i.e. going after what they've seen be a scumtell?)

@Wickedest: Catch up and speak about current events. It'll help everyone by having you actually speak about current events.

MMan's FoS of Ray ..... /facepalm

There's more to come, but I want to discuss it with my other head right now.

-A

[Merkabah]

@Glork: Was Kise's comment about Exalt and I being the two lynches the only reason that you're voting for him?

[Merkabah]

@MMan: He doesn't have to. Any alignment player would say that they're pro-town. From that standpoint, he just has to prove that you're scummy; not that he's less scummy than you because he "knows" his alignment.

Unless you're accusing him of being scum; I fail to see the point of that post.

[Merkabah]

Ok, I just caught up since I was traveling yesterday and I'm very happy to see that my initial read on Exalt was correct. It probably could have been expressed better, but spilled milk and all that.

Right now, we think that Monkeyman or Cyberbob is the correct lynch today, but we still need to have some internal discussions as to what we think the best course of action is.

I also think we need to hear more from the folks who remain in the background before we end the day. There are too many people I have no read whatsoever on and I don't think they should get a free pass to Day 2.

-VPB

[Merkabah]

@Wickedest: Tajo is probably a replacement *when* we need one (looks at Mufasa, WW, et al)

Unvote?
Vote: CyberBob

Clearly scum.

The vote for swimmer was for terribad reasons (only having a self-fulfilling prophecy) which does not equate to a scumtell at all. Voting for somebody over something that's not a scumtell in a non-random place = scum. Everyone vote for him and NAO!

/me holds down the fort

-A

Side note:
/me wonders why Tar thought Exalt was more likely town due to an admittedly incomplete meta (1 scum game a long time ago), and why Cyberbob that committed a scumtell (and got voted for it by Tar) was unvoted for somebody that had a pretty good chance at being an alt (50/50 at worst). Either way, this can wait til later; lynch Cyberbob now.

[Merkabah]

Awww, Pads, come back and vote for cyber. It's a wagon that's going somewhere, and it's a happy place. You should!

[Merkabah]

We can deal with Wicked later (D2); Cyberbob is scummy AND constructive.

[Merkabah]

@Ray: (you're gonna say you're town no matter what so just bear with me): If you were scum, who would you go after (attack/vote)?

Now think about who you should be voting.

[Merkabah]

@Raiv: We both thought that the attacks against swimmer were for bad/scummy reasons (Exalt being one of the more prominent ones *hint hint*); so I didn't think that scum would bus their partner that early/so hard.

@Wickedest: /facepalm What do you really think you putting your thoughts about the whole game down will achieve? You've been able to coast by by not commenting on the current events by posting useless catchup posts.

@Dev: Really? Nobody else?

@Glork: 360-361 makes me sad. That was my bolded part of a big post that I had to Exalt

@Mod: Votecount please?

We're 6 days from a deadline and without reaching a consensus we will no-lynch (which obviously is not good.)

-A

[Merkabah]

@Raiv: Did you have any indication of more than one scumgroup before the "Jupiter Mafia" flip? Exactly. Stop wasting time and vote for Cyber already. You all wanna know why you should? Well here you go!

First two posts: No content.

Third post; Negative content as he says that getting out of the RVS is pro-town; but he's not doing it.

4, no content (sense a pattern yet?)

5: claims credit for getting out of the RVS by being useless and making another player question him; while also voting for swimmer for previously mentioned terrible reasoning (See post 411 on page 17). Having a self-fulfilling prophecy is not a scumtell. Trying to turn it into one so that you have a reason to vote is scummy.

Going after swimmer after S4L had accused both Ray and himself {Cyber} for such a weak reason looks like OMGUS as well.

He's called Wickedest scummy twice (ISO 5 and 10) and Exalt once (10); yet his vote is on Swimmer at the time.

Basically hasn't contributed anything except for looking for reasons (apparently) to not move his vote or defend himself in this early game.

6 days ago he promised content that should've come 5 days ago. I'm all for seeing people have a life; but this is just outrageous.

Speaking of lack of producing content: he then votes for Kise for the "lynch Exalt and Merk" comment; while apparently having a good case against Swimmer. Why would you retract your whole previous position (basically) by voting for somebody over one line when you have a bullet list of reasons to vote for swimmer? (Hint: it's because he really doesn't have a case he believes in against swimmer; and the wagon wasn't going anywhere). He had never mentioned Kise beforehand; so instead of questioning the motives behind what he {Kise} said; hops on something that looks like it'll be a growing wagon.

ISO 23 is pretty golden too: He states that he will give his list on Swimmer; while not even having S4L in his top 3. What's the point anymore? Also: his reasons for voting for Kise were all after the vote (defense doesn't look genuine; and Kise's accused OMGUS was after Cyber voted for Kise in 278; Kise came back to the thread in 298). So he's guilty of manufacturing reasons for his vote that all occurred after his vote. Pretty sure I accused Exalt of doing the same thing. You wanna know why? Cause it's a scum behavior. (Also doesn't take into account his early "suspicions" of wickedest; of which a townie would remember and actually explore). Failing to follow up with your suspicions when you really aren't pushing your main agenda (questioning swimmer or Kise with your vote on them) is scummy as hell; and we need to do something about it.

Barely anything that CB has said in these 18 pages has actually contributed to the game. What little he has contributed has been better contributed by others.

So, to:
1. Tarhalindur
2. Vaya
3. Devestation
4. Mufasa
5. WarWound
7. Snow_Bunny
8. Riceballtail
9. Socrates
10. Wickedestjr
12. Wysp
13. Kise
15. Empking
16. RayFrost
17. SolemnJ
19. MonkeyMan576
20. Cyberbob
21. Pads
22. Slicey
23. Raivann

You should all be voting for Cyber in the next 5 days.

[Merkabah]

Cyber, you're doing a great (read: terrible) job of pushing for Kise, or anything that resembles acting pro-town; so keep it up and we can continue with the lynch on you that we need to hit in five days. You could just vote yourself and help us along.

Capish, Cat Stevens?

[Merkabah]

Fine, 4 days. Not that that's any better. (For you in Aussie-land it's closer to 3; but it's the 26th here (US) right now)

/me is slightly disappointed that you didn't vote for yourself

[Merkabah]

Ok, Amish is going VLA now for a few days and I'll be taking back over for our hydra during that time. I've missed the past few days due to traveling and the holidays, but I should be catching up and posting either today or tomorrow.

-VPB

[Merkabah]

I would also like a chance to finish my catching up before people hammer away. This game is my number 1 priority right now, so I'm guessing I should be able to get my post up tonight.

[Merkabah]

Ok, just read the last 8 pages and I'm fully caught up now. Cyberbob still needs a major lynching. If he flips scum, xRx needs to immediately afterward. Reck seems to be coming up with any excuse he can to get off the wagon even though

Well, this will be certainly interesting. I still think we should lynch Cyberbob, and I'm not quite seeing the logic behind NOT lynching him.

I really despise pretty much everything Devestation has posted in this game, and if he's not scum I'd eat his many many hats.

I have some other thoughts, but those can wait until we see the Cyberbob flip, which is all the more this day needs.

-VPB

[Merkabah]

See, now it's this kind of thing that you guys should be latching onto as well. VPB is pretty blatantly trying to set up a double lynch - I would say that he thinks I'm part of a different scum group than him and that xRECKONERx is my buddy in the same group.

I'm predicting one of two things here: either the only person to respond to this particular post will be VPB with a predictable NO U-type denial, or someone else will come up with some stupid "oh yes I see.... DIE CYBERSCUM" post.

That's pretty laughable really. The main reason for me pointing this out is that if you flip Jupiter Mafia, as I believe you will, I'd like to point out who your buddy is. I have a nagging suspicion that if you are Jupiter Mafia, Merkabah will not be long for this world since we single handedly killed two of your members in a day. We may as well go out on a high note and give the town a three for one special.

Also, keep it up with the pouty "poor cyberbob" pre-emptive defenses. They are SOOOO town.

You're point doesn't even make sense honestly. You're saying I'm chaining lynches together, but how is that possible if you're town? If you flipped town, then obviously people aren't going to be in a clamor to lynch Reckoner as your buddy. And your other theory about you flipping scum (why are you considering that if you're town?) makes me more likely scum how again? Wouldn't the more logical conclusion be, if you flip scum, that I actually am town who believes you and reckoner are buddies?

Basically my point is trying to set up easy lynch combos is anti-town play whether you're town or scum. "i dont think X player is scum therefore I wont ever criticise anything they do evar!!!" doesn't make for a very successful town.

That's not even the point I was making about Reckoner. I was pointing out that despite him saying he think you are scummy and a necessary lynch, he is trying to lynch anywhere else, but you. That is classic scum behavior.

Same goes for Devestation bailing off. Day 1 of a large, there is absolutely NO reason not to lynch a very scummy claimed vanilla.

-VPB

[Merkabah]

Looking forward to it, Sens. Hopefully there will be a Cyberbob vote in there.

In the meantime,

Not Voting(5) -

SensFan

, Slicey, WarWound,

Kise

, Devestation

Plans on voting sometime today? Or just playing the game in general?

[Merkabah]

As previously stated, Jupiter Mafia...Reckoner and Devestation partners. You heard it here first folks.

Also, all the muh hate seems like fabricated scumhunting and nothing more than a newbie beatdown. Probably scum in that group of people.

[Merkabah]

EBWOP: don't worry Glork...they probably won't kill us both and I'd like to see Tar bite a lynch very soon as well.

(both posts by VPB).

[Merkabah]

MafiaScum Theater presents: A dramatic renactment of the Jupiter Mafia QT pre-game

Cyberbob

: If I get into trouble, I'm going to claim a powerrole and try to out someone.

Devestation

: Ok, that'll be a perfect way to get the heat off of you! I'll say claiming a powerrole is complete WIFOM!

Reckoner

: Also, Merkabah is an awesome dude.

Tarhalindur

: It's a shame we'll have to kill him on Night 1 for outing our whole scumteam.

Exalt

: Yeah, a REAL shame. *anger* *cursing*

fin

[Merkabah]

The lesson, bobby boy, is never change your scum strategy midstream unless you are confident that the players on your team can keep up.

[Merkabah]

Let's hope you don't get killed tonight, Riceball! We'd be lost without your awesome scumhunting abilities.

*prays REALLY REALLY hard*

-VPB

[Merkabah]

No. Read the thread. I was making light of Devestation saying that Cyber claimed some sort of PR.

@Cyber-Yeah, I'm excited for your cardflip too! You should vote yourself.

[Merkabah]

Well, I have a limitation on my role, so maybe SensFan had a limiatation also?

lol. Do tell.

This whole bit of claiming early (he was at L-2 when it happened) and having ridiculous night choices reminds me a great deal of his doctor claim in Mafia 91 when he was on my scum team. It was a pretty brilliant move actually because the town wouldn't lynch him and the real doc wouldn't out himself for fear of NK...but the difference is that I'm not on your scum team this time MM. Change up your tricks.

I'm pretty convinced you're scum, but Amished is our voter and I know we have other suspicions he may be more interested in. I'll let him decide what the correct play is when he checks in.

-VPB

[Merkabah]

Yawn.

Vote: MonkeyMan

[Merkabah]

Also: initial guess is RF is scum tracker. MMan does have a good point about not needing to claim as town PR.

-A

[Merkabah]

(All votes come from the Amish, except when on V/LA)

[Merkabah]

Nah, he'd CC if you were lying too; there's no way he'd know your alignment what with the naming of our outed scumgroup implying a second.

[Merkabah]

Mostly because of the fact that he's either a tracker or scum (or both). After your flip, we'll see that you're scum. If you were town, he'd sign his own death warrant by claiming you killed a townie. 1 for 1 with a weak PR that nobody believes is a bad idea. Trying to gain "confirmation"; sure, there's ample scum motivation for that.

[Merkabah]

Yeah, RF, the person you CC'd was the 3rd of 3 scum in a row that we lynched (all after your CC). We had bigger fish to fry; but we needed your claim there to get the information for that 3rd lynch. Here, we didn't need your {RF's} claim. "Similar" situation (only the CC'ing part, really); completely different need and motivation.

[Merkabah]

@MMan: the only way we'd believe him is if you flip scum. We're not that stupid.

@Annachie: Hi, why the unvote?

[Merkabah]

I counted 7 before the unvote; 19 alive (need 10)

6 on right now (l-4) based on a brief skim.

[Merkabah]

Oh, right: 3 deaths since we can't update 1st post so 16 alive; 8 to lynch. We were at L-1; we're at L-2 right now.

@RF: Hewitt was probably going to be believed for a while before BM. We *then* had BattleMage leading the town and got off 2 guilty cop investigations; and one on Hewitt. We couldn't have really known that Hewitt was scum without a CC (which made it iffy and needed more information) or an investigation (which we got IIRC).

Here: We have a dead tracker already; MMan was scummy before and was flailing pretty hard today. I don't think anybody could've really swayed us from lynching him. You claim anyways; not especially helping the situation as we were going to come to the conclusion to lynch him. If you *were* town tracker, I would've expected you to wait to see. If he was gonna get lynched, then you can go on tracking undercover. If he wasn't/wagon was slowing down: then you could've claimed and got it back around to the right target.

There's a huge difference between the two games.

-A

[Merkabah]

Yes. Scum tracker is plausible.

[Merkabah]

The only way he messed up (his claim at least) was by having a tracker die overnight and claiming a bit too early yesterday.

[Merkabah]

Both of which you saw (or should have).

[Merkabah]

WIFOM defense much? I've already pointed out the other side to your "scenario".

Also, don't really need another reason. A big mistake is a big mistake.

[Merkabah]

I think we should spend less time worrying about factions right now. It is pretty clear there are two scum killing groups (be it two mafias or mafia +SK, idk).

Ray-lets hear that night action.

-VPB

[Merkabah]

I was intending to give SnowBunny a proper looking at though I couldn't have said scummy or not due to mostly skimming the early parts of day 1, but the name was on my 'watch' list.

Why was she on your "watch list"?

If not for the fact that the Jupiter Mafia jumped on your predecessor's wagon D1 and "brutally murdered" sounds like an SK kill method, I'd be happy to lynch you for this post alone - it's so newbscum it hurts.

I mean, seriously... talking about how well or poorly something went for town then going straight into setup speculation without scumhunting at ALL? It's hard to get scummier than that.

Why bring it up if you don't think he's scum?

Anybody notice a running trend throughout this PBPA?

I notice you attacking a player who two dead scums tried to lynch yesterday.

We shoulda lynched Muh D1.
I wouldn't say a Muh lynch would provide no info either

So, you think we should have lynched a player that two dead scums were trying to lynch on crappy reasons as opposed to Cyberbob, who had in thread connections to a confirmed scum?

Shit... okay first of all, not bandwagoning. I didn't know Tar posted/voted also.

Why are you concerned about appearing to be bandwagoning this early in a large game?

Pads is Jupiter Mafia BTW.

Explain.

The fluff tells us, ok strongly implies, that there is an SK (I finally read it properly).

Do people think that the night 0 killer and the killer of Devestation & Snow_Bunny is the same person?

Better question: how does this find scum?

No - in my opinion, the N0 killer (who we're hunting) hasn't night-killed yet. I don't think a careful mod like Seraph would put that in there by mistake.

So, potentially, we're looking at two scumteams, and a SK who hasn't killed yet? Otherwise, I don't know what to make of the N0 kill flavor.

How does this find scum?

VPB, how do your thoughts or feelings about Devestation posts change with his role being revealed?

No. Why should it?

Annachie's post 906 is useless and a continuation of how he is jumping on everyone else's thoughts without anything original coming from him.

Within 6 minutes too.

And again. Lynch please.

I'll unvote in light of the claim.

and about ten posts later, this

Plus, it makes you obv scum for claiming early - nervous scum

just in case my vote isn't on monkeyman...

unvote, vote: monkeyman

...does not read like a town tracker reacting to someone (MonkeyMan) claim his (RayFrost's) role. If it made MonkeyMan obvscum to RayFrost for claiming early, then certainly it would have made him obvscum for claiming early with the same role that RayFrost had. So why the unvote? Because RayFrost is not the town tracker.

Now, this is scumhunting. Pads is prob town.

While a town tracker might have countered MonkeyMan on Day 2, a scum tracker definitely would have. Given that and the above quotes I'm leaning towards the latter.

But he didn't counter him...which I think a scum tracker would be less likely to do actually. He might have thought that MM WAS the town tracker and didn't want to counter because a mislynch at that time would have been certain death.

I am going to be leaving for two weeks starting on the 18th, and I will be replaced by a player named Percy.

Sweet! Pre-emptive hi to Percy! (though I'm pretty sure he's on V/LA until the 20th).

I also don't understand his reason for choosing RayFrost to use his ability on last night. What's the point of keeping him alive if it means he can't use his ability any way?

preventing a nightkill is probably a better result than a track that likely won't turn up anything.

---

Caught up. Our hydra is currently thinking along the lines of an Annachie or Reckoner vote I'm pretty sure. Amished is around, but has a lot of RL stuff going on atm, so I'm just going to go ahead and

Vote:Annachie

for us.

[Merkabah]

How about you check your facts.

*checks*

Yep, you're scum.

you say that you are damn certain that Dev is scum, he turns out to be town but you are still damn certain he's scum. Do you care to explain this?

Where did I say I'm "damn certain he's scum" after he's flipped? I said I stood by what I said yesterday, which is that he was acting scummy.

Clearly I was correct or he wouldn't have drawn a NK. He certainly didn't get killed because he was playing the game well.

How can trying to work out if we are looking for one or two scum groups help find scum? Please explain.

I don't know, I'm not the one that is doing it. That is why I asked you.

How can looking at a lurker who got brought to my attention be not helpful? (Yes, Vaya is next for that treatment from me)

My point is that you aren't trying to find scum, but rather pushing other peoples' suspects, which is a pretty typical move for scum trying to get a mislynch.

What is wrong with commenting on Pads extreemly fortuitious timing? (Which lead me to iso him for a good town read if your interested.)

What is wrong with calling out your "extremely fortuitous timing" of attack? Also, it's pretty convenient that you got a town read from this supposed iso after I called you out for a bullshit attack. What exactly from this iso makes you think he's town?

Feel free to answer my questions posed in the previous post. They weren't rhetorical.

-VPB

[Merkabah]

But did you consider that those two scum only voted swimmer because Tar and Empking did, and as a desperate attempt to get attention off of MM (Who had attracted votes at the time) and that Tar and Emp might have more influenced CB than MM and Exalt did?

So, you are suggesting that the scum were trying to bus swimmer to save Monkeyman? I don't understand what you are getting at here that makes swimmer more likely to be scum than town.

Where did you say you were damn certain that Dev was scum. I would hope that offering to eat his hat if he wasn't scum counts as damn certain, and strangely that would be a "thought or feeling" that hasn't changed because you said yourself that your thoughts and feelings hadn't changed.

Yes, my feelings that he acted scummy did not change just because he flipped town. What are you not understanding? You trying to argue that I think he's scum after he's flipped town is beyond nonsensical.

How many town vigilante's do you think there are if he was killed for acting scummy?

Who said a vig killed him? The vig is dead in case you haven't noticed. You do realize that if we have multiple scum factions (which is likely) that they are trying to kill each other, right? There can be only one winner.

For that matter, how do you know he was actually killed for acting scummy? The only people who would actually know is/are the one/ones who killed him.

OMG, you are so good at scum hunting. You caught me. I killed Devestation. His hats just looked too delicious to pass up.

Merk, Kise. Why when I start expressing interest in Muh do I get an attack from you both?

Hint: They aren't related.

Merk, Kise, why when Reckoner starts investigating Muh do you attack him?

Cause it's a shitty attack on an easy target, leading me to believe that Reck is scum. Also, we still have a town read on muh/swimmer.

Still waiting for you to answer the rest of my questions Annachie.

[Merkabah]

Or how's about we lynch Annachie, who just so happens to be scum.

[Merkabah]

-VPB

[Merkabah]

@Socrates: Zoraster's 948 is well done for points against Annachie; while our posts on the previous page and Anna's responses are damning as well.

WB Percy, how was the losing the rest of your life of freedom?

[Merkabah]

Sorry about being part Mastin, Zor. That hurts

[Merkabah]

@Ray: Look out for that too townie fallacy. You're climbing in suspicion, especially as of late.

[Merkabah]

Then what was the point of the post, Ray?

Cause to me it seemed like "OMG what if Zor/Tar/Merk were scum! They'd be awesome and we'd never know!" (obviously exaggerated) rather than contributing to discussion. It was a post for post's sake if you're *not* calling us too townie; or you are calling us too townie; neither of which are great reasons to make a post in the first place.

Instead, who's your second suspect and why? Answer for an independent of Anna (like he's not here); if he is scum, and if he flips not.

[Merkabah]

@RBT: Dev was scummy eh?

3. Devestation, Town Prison Guard, Brutally Murdered Night 2

Looking for connections should still work if one of them is town after you thought they were scummy.

... Right?

[Merkabah]

Just thought I would remind everyone that we need a majority to have a lynch actually be achieved in this game and deadline is five days away. While that is a decent amount of time, if you are planning on being away for the holiday it might be a good idea for you to put your vote on who you think should be lynched very soon because a no lynch would be a horrible, horrible lump of coal in everyone's stocking.

-VPB

[Merkabah]

*chuckle*

Anna's down (now) for an information lynch. Doesn't matter what muh flips, but it'll have bearing on two other players. Sorry if I seem skeptical here; but seriously? You can always question who you want to figure out without having to rely on *somebody else's flip*.

Say Muh is town, are we then going to be scum because we defended a townie? Or are we town and just had a read on them/correctly interpreted scum actions?

Then say Muh is scum, obviously we would be wrong in that case, but is that really a major scumtell? Is the reason for why we thought that muh/swimmer was town rendered invalid and now makes us scum?

If you're settling for an "informational" lynch to figure out the alignments of two other players (which only really leads to WIFOM), you're 100% scum and everyone should vote for you right now so we can have night over a holiday and can enjoy it.

@Everyone (including Anna): Vote for Anna now; and be happy with a scum lynch because you know she is.

Finally, where is our over the top defense? Pretty sure we've just said that we think he's town because two confirmed scum have voted for him early on. You've referenced this a couple times, and I'm not seeing it.

Without evidence of a second scumgroup, I'm going under the assumption of only having one group, and naming it was a red herring. Obviously this is up to change if we do have another one, but there's not a single bit of *solid* evidence that suggests that we have more than one scum group; unless there's somebody from another scum group that wants to claim now?

[Merkabah]

Not really, i was the original to suggest the replacement scumtell on you anna. I was just away and we wanted to keep current with the game. it's our duty to keep everything up to date for everyone so they know our stance so vpb took over while i was on vacation/my dealing with a funeral,. I thakn him for it, but I was the initial one to really show why you were basically 100% scum anna.

[Merkabah]

So what are you going to eat this time?

I'll say this again. Lynching me prooves little, lynching Muh prroves a lot, and he's lurking so bad to earn a lynching anyway.

See, you are severely missing the point. As opposed to your play this entire game, some of us are trying to lynch scum. All you have done is either a) call for policy lurker lynches or b) OMGUS your attackers.

The only defense you have given to the case being presented against you essentially boils down to "I'm town, therefore lynching me is bad". I mean, look at you above attacking our hydra because I voted you while Amished was V/LA. W...T...F. That's not scumhunting. That's wildly flailing about, and like any hurt animal you need to be put down.

Consider us your Dr. Kervorkian. You may as well vote yourself because yours is the only lynch that is happening today.

[Merkabah]

-VPB

[Merkabah]

lol, where did you attack us first? As far as I can tell, I posted my case and voted you and then we were suddenly in a cahoots with muh according to you. Prior to that we weren't even hardly on your radar as far as I can tell. Would you like me to post links for you?

[Merkabah]

-VPB

[Merkabah]

... Ok, hold up.

@Zoraster: Don't help him (you'll see who in a sec)

@Reckoner: Seriously. If you want somebody lynched, you don't wait for other people to vote first (if you're town). If you had to wait to see if there was gonna be support before you actually voted; you're scum.

Either way, I want to see *your* case on muh; without hopping on any wagons without reasoning/piggybacking other people's reasons.

[Merkabah]

@xRx: And nothing that has happened in the last two days has changed for you? None of the flips, nothing?

@everyone else voting muh: How sure are you that there's two scumgroups? Cause it seems like everyone keeps forgetting that the two Jupiter Mafia that have died pushed swimmer/wysp/muh pretty hard early in the game, hard enough to probably get swimmer lynched. I'm just wondering why people are ignoring that verifiable fact on setup speculation. Anybody?

[Merkabah]

@Percy: Our *guess* (and I want to emphasize guess) is that there could be an SK out there rather than another scum group. Last night seems to support this; as there was only one kill. On the surface, it seems rather newbie since we haven't offed any killing roles since the night before when there were two kills.

So for one kill, either there was a protection or both "groups" (for brevity's sake I'll call the 2nd faction a group rather than group/sk or something) targeted RayFrost. As the ability of a jailkeeper or doc is pretty weak in a large game; it's more likely that both "groups" chose to kill RayFrost. If there was a large scumgroup out there (since 2 Jupiter are gone); they really wouldn't have to worry about RayFrost as they have the numbers to reduce the chances of being tracked. A solo person would have to worry about that, though, as they can't afford to be caught doing anything and a tracker normally goes around immunity or anything like that.

So if there's two groups, Jupiter (since they lost 2 already) would and could very well go after RayFrost to preserve their chances of winning by not getting tracked; but another scumgroup wouldn't have the same problem as they'd be fully intact and the numbers there alleviate the problem of a tracker.

So we're thinking that it was a newer player group that's left in the Jupiter Mafia (or what's left of it) and some solo player that has to cover for him or herself. The deaths seem to support it somewhat; but obviously there's a lot out there that's not known.

I thought that this (sk rather than another group) was the obvious alternative if there's no proof of a second mafia yet.

[Merkabah]

Obviously, we're not pleased with muh's contribution to the game, but with EMP and Slicey both being completely away from the game (and Vaya? I had to look at the player list to realize) I fail to see how muh staying here is more of a scumtell (since he's able to answer questions) than doing absolutely nothing towards helping the town (and hurting it if they're town themselves). Due to our read on the attackers and attacks (still) of those going after muh; we're not convinced that he's scum. He could step up trying to find scum; but he's better off than the 0 contribution people.

Also, if we can eliminate muh from being Jupiter (due to MMan/Exalt); he's "half" as likely to be scum.

One more thing: If muh is part of an alternate scum team; I would have expected more people to defend him along our line of defense. Or perhaps even tried to coach him a bit overnight. However, there's like one person besides us saying that they're not convinced he's scum; and his play has been consistent throughout this game.

Along that vein of thought: it's in the scumteam's best interest to try to keep themselves as strong as possible, right? If so, it doesn't help them to keep bussing their partner, or allowing their partner to be an easy lynch like it seems that muh is. Sure, he *could* be SK, but so could anybody as their scumhunting would be legit. Perhaps one of the flakers is an SK and just didn't send in a kill. There's too much unknown information to say "if you can't prove that he isn't scum, then he is".

[Merkabah]

Thank God for some reason.

Anyways, Socrates brought up a good point that I think needs to be explored further:

@Percy: You obviously believe that we're in multiscum. Wouldn't it benefit us more if we could get rid of Jupiter Mafia if that's what you truly believe? If so, why is muh your top suspect then, if you *should* be looking for Jupiter rather than unrevealed under that belief?

[Merkabah]

14. Glork, Town Vigilante, Shot Night 2

You mean that vigiliante?

[Merkabah]

@xRx: I'm curious now, who else are you going to look for that has pushed heavily for two factions? Cause looking at your initial response to Exalt/MMan on Swimmer, you kinda sided with swimmer (something about 'I would've had the same reaction to a question like that'); but then you pushed muh pretty heavily throughout the time when I know at least I was saying that he wasn't Jupiter.

[Merkabah]

@Tar: I take it the head you had a supertell on hasn't come through yet, eh?

[Merkabah]

@Raivann: What do you think about this "new" information about probably only one scumteam?

[Merkabah]

Actually, it's pretty easy to know kinda what you're up against as scum. Tar can attest to this as well, but in NY92; we (Amished here) were part of a 4 man scumgroup in a 27? person game. That's well under the normal "20-30%" scum ratio that you can expect, so we could scumhunt knowing that there was gonna be another faction of some sort out there. Knowing your own size and your abilities you can pretty well judge the rest of the game.

If you're large and have a lot of powerful abilities, you know that the town will similarly have a lot of abilities that you have to watch out for. You've been around for a year by now; I thought that this was rather basic to the concept of mafia.

It's not even limited to large games; if you're in a 2 man scumteam in a mini and you don't have much for power; you know damn well that the town doesn't have much either (mountainous).

[Merkabah]

To be fair, I think Raivann's hammer of Cyberbob is fairly null. It was deadline and whether or not he had protested the lynch before that, someone had to make it happen. I'd be more pissed at him if he had posted and NOT hammered at that time.

That being said, there are plenty of other reasons to be suspicious of Raivann that don't included that hammer, including the excessive tunnelling on muh essentially with no attention going from him to anyone else in this game.

-VPB

[Merkabah]

-snip-

...you know, I could kinda see Socrates in any faction except SK.

I missed this the first time going through. How the *hell* can you eliminate somebody "scummy" (from your POV) from being SK without being it yourself?

---

Also, this is something that I wanted to post before; but I was waiting for really meaningful Raivann content.

Glork, RF, and Solemn are my top suspects right now...

He also goes on to accuse Snow_Bunny of being scum, and Vaya. Now, there's two things that everybody in that list (with one exception) has in common: They're both dead and town. (Vaya is the obvious exception and I'm not exactly looking at that right now).

In multi-scum; the scumgroup also has to look for other people, but MMan has only found townies. This implies to me that he's just trying to manufacture suspicion rather than actually scumhunt.

MMan isn't the greatest player (if he was, he wouldn't have gotten lynched so easily); but I would've expected that he'd find *one* scum in his list. Heck, you don't buss your partners and there's more scum, it's even statistically probable that he'd find *1* if there was another group out there.

[Merkabah]

AFAIK, there aren't really SK specific tells. They have too much in common with both scum (survival) and town (scumhunting) to effectively be able to solo them out. Either way; the SK would know (since they're doing one of the kills each night) that there's one large group out there and could say anything that they wanted to to make them look town.

3:3:16? or 5-6:1:16 would both seem reasonable; with a vig out there, I'd probably lean towards less scum than more; cause you pretty much have to assume that a townie will be killed at every opportunity for game balance (well, that's typically how I do it) and then judge amount of mislynches that can happen and town still win (not sure exactly how to balance large, but I would say that 3-5 mislynches is around normal).

I would assume jailkeeper masons are about as likely to be the same alignment as neighbors (which is actually quite high, and this is without the mod clarification factored in at this point). In a game that just finished, there were mason cops; and each had an investigation. Tar isn't really on our scumdar either, and using a dead person's arguments (dead *town's* arguments to be more specific) is pretty damn weak.

With the mod clarification; I think it's damn near impossible for Tar to be scum; and the discrediting of a Town PR is something that I really only expect from scum (and it happens quite a bit, actually)

Not the biggest fan of following Trumpet anywhere, but

Vote: Raivann

@Mod: Any ETA on Vaya/Slicey (or replacements?)

[Merkabah]

We're fine with massclaim. Actually, this would be a damn good time before the scum can coordinate too much as it's been going pretty well for them lately (ever since MMan, anyways) that I doubt that they'd really think about a coordinated claiming strategy.

Tar, you're about as close as confirmed as we can get; what do you think, popcorn or chosen? I generally shy away from chosen unless there's a sane cop investigation and GF dead.

[Merkabah]

Yeah, I remember that well. You were also *confirmed dead town* that I could revive (and there was no way in hell I was gonna revive Mastin, bringing him back was gonna kill the game, ironically enough..)

You've already claimed, both of us had moderate to growing stronger town read on you. Even still, something always can go wrong if we're wrong about you and then you choosing would be terribad for the town.

Dice seems like it'd work well; popcorn is a (close) second option. You choosing the first to claim is fine with us; but after that we'd feel better if there wasn't an unknown element choosing for us (other than luck, ofc).

[Merkabah]

Vaya *is* alive, holy hell.

If you're talking about recent events, care to share your thoughts on anybody else?

[Merkabah]

lol @ wickedest saying he (basically, since percy = wickedest) brings up good points, but then disagrees with "himself". Really?

Anyways, I do think the 2nd kill was from SK, but I was arguing with Percy who thought that there were two scumgroups. Even still; if you count the SK as a "scumgroup" of one, then they're half as likely to be scum if they're not part of one of the two scumgroups.

[Merkabah]

Yeah, unless anything else comes up, we're gonna lynch Raiv/xRx.

We're a town villager.

[Merkabah]

1) I call bullshit on xRx

(See: "I expect Vanilla claim" -xRx
"I claim Vanilla" -Raiv
"I don't believe it!" -xRx)

2) If my scancount is right, Raiv is at L-3

3) Slicey hasn't been active for like a month and a half, so muh would be next since we have 0 sign of a replacement.

[Merkabah]

xRx = SK then (bulletproof my ass)

Now onto muh.

JOAT's only get one shot at each/all of their abilities in my experience; so you're not gonna get another one no matter what. The only way that we could protect you is if we lynch the SK (xRx); but then you'd be jailkept and couldn't make use of your other abilities, though with only 1 kill last night, it's highly doubtful that the scum has a roleblocker as I'm wagering Tar was the one that kept whoever it was alive/prevented the killing.

Innocent would add another person to the "not a suspect list" and allow all of us more information.

Guilty is obviously a reveal, and something that I think you would've said already.

I don't really see a downside to revealing any results you have, muh.

[Merkabah]

He said he had an investigation, that's my opinion on it with my thought process. You wanna put out your thoughts on it?

Even if you truly believe that he's part of a second scumteam; and I'm part of it with him, wouldn't you think that we'd all get together and figure out a safeclaim for him with everything to do? Or how about I'm town and that's what I feel about a one time result with possible pros and cons.

[Merkabah]

Just to be clear, if Reckoner is the SK, he is probably only one of inv/NK immune.

So, my feeling is that we may not want to lynch Reckoner. I don't believe that he and muh are on the same scum team given his mega push for muh. Now that leaves a couple possibilities:

1) They are both telling the truth.

2) Reckoner is investigation immune SK who claimed BP to direct the scum NK away from him.

3) Muh is scum with some plan that makes no sense to get town points off of Reckoner?

I'm inclined to believe it is the second option that we are dealing with here, and therefore leaving Reckoner for tonight may be the best plan. The scum faction will need to kill him or face the possible loss of another member. My guess is that by the end of mass claim it should be easy to pick out at least one more scum player if not more.

Speaking of which, who's up next?

-VPB

[Merkabah]

Slicey is very clearly still active on the site (posted in his modded game yesterday), so I do not know why he is not keeping up here.

As opposed to you, who is the clear beacon of activity. Speaking of which, it's your turn to claim isn't it?

I find it kind of wierd that Vaya is fine with the massclaim, yet doesn't seem to be aware of the situation enough to have any reads on people

It's probably because he's scum. I only have one game of experience with Vaya as town, but he was at least participatory in that game.

What?

That's from Amished's post, so I'll leave him to explain.

2) Reckoner is investigation immune SK who claimed BP to direct the scum NK away from him.
While this is definitely possible, why wouldn't I just claim vanilla if I wanted to fly under the radar as the SK? Not trying to get into WIFOM here - but just thinking about things from the perspective of if I was SK.

When you're playing as an SK you either play like you've got a pair or you lose. Big risks equal big rewards.

-VPB

[Merkabah]

@Wicked: Start off with the fact that you and Percy are the same slot. I find it humorous that in 1122 (page 45) that you congratulate "yourself" (Percy); yet disagree with "yourself" (Percy's vote of muh). It just seems like you're congratulating yourself while also admonishing yourself (where yourself has more of a metaphysical definition)

[Merkabah]

Why did you not use an action on night 1, muh?

[Merkabah]

Ok, first let me clear something up: one of Reckoner and Tar are almost certainly scum. Both have claimed some form of UNK-ability and that is a huge red flag. I'm not sure which is which, but if the scum are looking for cross kills these are logical targets to be looking at.

While we're on the issue, Reckoner, does your PM say that you'll receive notification when your BP-vest is used?

Trumpet of Doom, I'd like to hear your thoughts on all of Tar's setup speculation.

2) More importantly, I'm pretty sure you just made a HUGE slip there.

Everybody, take a close look at what's implied in RBT's reasoning.

- RBT specifically thinks I'm Jupiter Mafia. Not unrevealed faction (the conclusion I would expect from a townie, considering that my D3 play could be considered Selective Scumhunting), but rather Jupiter Mafia. In fact, RBT doesn't even CONSIDER the possibility that I'm unrevealed faction.

So why are you voting Raivann then? I would think that lynching the unrevealed faction is of a higher priority than going after what is likely the last Jupiter.

Merkabah - Unrevealed/SK. Leaning the latter based on this post:

<snip>

For that matter, how do you know he was actually killed for acting scummy? The only people who would actually know is/are the one/ones who killed him.

OMG, you are so good at scum hunting. You caught me. I killed Devestation. His hats just looked too delicious to pass up.

<snip>


I should probably have noticed the possible sarcastic confession (see for example: Kaleidoscope, Mafia 67) a LOT sooner than I did. ("Brutally murdered" just about has to be the SK kill, and Devestation was "brutally murdered").

So you are stating that we are scum because some other scum in some other game used sarcasm once? Sound logic there. I think you've probably done enough research in your time to know that one source does not actually prove a point.

However, moving beyond that, why do you think devestation would have been killed when he was? The most logical answer is that it was a failed attempt at a cross kill. He certainly wasn't the gleaming light of obv. towniness before he died.

Rai, who is probably scum, but not Jupiter IMO.

Why is he not Jupiter?

The Jupiters probably tried to kill Reck last night, testing the claim.

Do you actually have a reason for the things you are saying or is this all just completely off the cuff? How would you know who they targetted last night?

With three scum factions, there would be three night kills.

We have to eliminate the SK at some point before endgame, since he/she would be the most likely person to be UNK. Other than that, we can still win on Prisoner's dilemma.

---

At this point, we definitely need to be gunning for an unrevealed faction, either the SK or another scumgroup.

My personal reads at the moment stand at:

Reckoner-either town or SK
zoraster-possibly town, but needs to post
Raivan-scum
slicey-who the hell knows, neutral and needs replacement in the worst way
Pads-town, needs to post
RBT-leaning unrevealed scum
Socrates-neutral (need to iso here)
Wicked-probably town
Tar-either unrevealed scum or town
Trumpet of Doom-leaning unrevealed scum, but that's just on gut/PoE

Amished may have a slightly different take on things. Not too sure. I think everyone who hasn't posted content yet today needs to get their ass in here so we can get some discussion going.

[Merkabah]

He already claimed no. Hell, he didn't even say it was N-shot. (Changing the details of your claim is a scumtell, isn't it? I'm thinking Reck's investigation-immune scum of some sort - SK'd work, I guess, or unrevealed GF.)

He did claim he wouldn't know? Can you quote that for me. If it's true, then I'm ready to lynch Reckoner right now.

@Merk: No, it does not say if I will be notified or not.

That being said, I'm leaning towards Merk as scum. I dunno.

So why in the hell are you acting like you'd receive notification about it?

Also, what do your feelings have on our player slot have anything to do with the question I asked you? WHY do you think we're scum?

This isn't necessarily true. We had two investigative roles. Who says we can't have two protective roles?

Balance wise I think it's unlikely, especially since neither of them have claimed any sort of specific limitations on it. That being said, with this many killing factions going around I suppose it isn't entierly out of the question.

Tar's post last post is pretty decent and articulates better alot of what I was thinking about RBT's accusations. Still down for RBT's lynch.

one thing though:

why the hell would a Mafia faction - ESPECIALLY the faction that's almost certainly smaller and needs crosskill - choose to possibly waste a kill on a claimed bulletproof who's investigated innocent

When did Reckoner get investigated innocent?

[Merkabah]

Ah, muh, that's correct.

Well that makes the RBT lynch much more tasty. Now if we could only get all these silent folks to post or be replaced.

[Merkabah]

Vote:RBT

Choo choo!

[Merkabah]

What do you like about the RBT case Socrates?

[Merkabah]

After reading your post Pads, I'm not sure why you prefer a Raivann lynch to an RBT lynch. Seems to me that at best you would see them as equitable.

[Merkabah]

Perhaps you could have waited until, you know, we had had some discussion today....just a thought for next time.

[Merkabah]

Slow all this discussion down people. Everybody will get a turn to talk!


I really don't like lynches that are foregone conclusions because it ruins the day since everyone just votes and then goes silent.

I don't really agree with the reasons being presented to switch off of RBT for Raivann. Raivann's silence demonstrates even further that he's guaranteed scum. There is no reason for the town to do the work of an opposing scum faction. If the opposing scum does not kill Raivann tonight, then they face the chance to lose one or members on future nights.

We should lynch RBT, who also seems like to be scum in my book, and let the rest of them sort out Raivann tonight.

[Merkabah]

Reckoner, try to up your standards a bit and read beyond the surface level.