Newbie 843 (Game Over)

[PaltryExcuse]

'lo All! Hello again Starbuck! Nice to see you again. I'm your friendly neighbourhood replacement for Soyasushi.

Just a bit about me on the site:
This is only my second game, and first time replacing.

I'll be trying to catch up ASAP, but would appreciate an extension as well. Anyways... off I go.

[PaltryExcuse]

With the extension and personal perusal, I'm gonna

unvote

.
I'll try to post tomorrow on my thoughts on Day 1, and hopefully Day 2 as well.

[PaltryExcuse]

Day 1:
Bjl/Yernab

• - liked his wanting to get talk going, however, answers would be hard to read
  - in his defense of why he backs away so quickly, he’s new to the site, and was accused of using WIFOM by the three most experienced members (both SEs and the IC)
  • o don’t like how he mentions again he is withholding his vote though
  - very defensive about the smilies when it seems like they are just discussing the issue (no one says it is outright scummy or anything)
  - Yernab flakes, votes manho based on his being an SE and unhelpful
  - Up to this point, I’m reading this as one of two things
  • o 1. Newbie Scum who got caught
    o 2. New player who doesn’t like being the first target
  - bjl replaces, and soon points to newbie town mistakes (I think it just points to newbie mistakes, no alignment)
  • o end of day, does not say anything during the 3 days of twilight

Crazypianist1116 / lrd

• - lrd subs out right after making random vote
  - CP doesn’t like a random vote?
  - I like the day 1 case against EC
  - Suspicious of tubby’s hammer, but town did not seem to be budging on the Wrath issue

EtherealCookie / david-villa-7

• - david-villa was uber busy, so it’s really just an analysis on EC
  - somehow analyzes a response by manho and makes it an accusation on tubby?
  • o Oh, and as a sidenote, your ‘silly scum’ tactic has won many a newbie game according to my research
  - I think you misread Wrath’s early posts, as I gleaned something entirely different when reading them
  • o However, Wrath’s lack of defense later on is ucky
  - Interestingly enough, you’ve given us two different targets, depending on what Wrath’s reveal is
  • o Pianist if Wrath is scum, tubby if Wrath is town
  - EC’s feelings on tubby are weird…

Manho

• - early play is very uninformative
  - it’s hard to label someone as ‘trying to hard’ without some sort of background info
  - his short posts make him difficult to read
  - I don’t agree that not knowing what to do is a newbie scum mistake. It’s a newbie mistake, not role affiliated.
  • o His no defense just doesn’t help him get OUT of suspicion
  - I’ll give you Wrath's lack evidence in his vote towards EC is crazy

Meji Fan

• - first to scumhunt at tubby’s ‘need more posts’ attitude mixed with his uninformative actions
  - FoS’s David for not contributing
  - Votes manho for willingness to change votes
  - Jumps on Wrath bandwagon after being convinced by manho
  • o Her case comes right after Zach’s vote, but her vote comes right after the replacement…quicklynch before a re-read?
  - I might be reading into this too much as I can’t point at anything she’s done that is scummy before hand

Tubby216

• - seems unconcerned of the first (in my mind) non-random vote of the game coming towards him
  - Question: Why are LoS’s good at the end of the day rather than at the beginning?
  - Seems unflustered by the accusations of his day 1 play being anti-town
  - His vote of Wrath seems to be to prevent a no-lynch day 1, but with 3 days remaining he could've waited

Zachrulez

• - says basically nothing that hasn’t already been said until his ‘bandwagon’ vote on Meji is challenged
  - Question: Why is expressing a dislike of LoS’s anti-discussion? You could just post them anyway with your own feelings on them.
  • o However, I do like your opinion on the possible helpfulness of LoS’s
  - Your comment that you don’t see a plus in talking in twilight is without merit… any discussion of game could help town… saying nothing at all just guarantees that
  - also, you advocated the dislike of LoS as anti-discussion, but you firmly end discussion during twilight...?

At the end of Day 1, no one stands out to me as outright scum, or as outright townie… however suspicions are raised towards yernab/bjl and Zach.
I’d probably have been exploring tubby's hammer, Zach's twilight comment, and EC’s case against Wrath a bit further (who jumped on, off; when, how) come day 2.

*Sidenote: This replacing thing is much tougher than I thought. Bleh.

[PaltryExcuse]

Day 2!

I just want to start out by saying this is a freaking MESS. We have until November 11th, only because our mod was gracious enough to give us replacements an extension, and votes are everywhere (6 votes on 4 different people!!!) and there’s little conversation. Someone has to get lynched today (as per the mod rules) and a lynch by only 2 people scares the bejeezus out of me (considering we need 5 to lynch BEFORE deadline).

My PBPA:
Overall, I just want to say I find it surprising of how much talk there is about scum-pairs and the like. It’s ok to be searching somewhat, but how sure some people are that they’ve found the scum is scary, scary stuff and is definitely treading on dangerous ground.

EtherealCookie (replaced david-villa-7)

Wowee. Firstly, I’d like to ask you to refrain from calling people unintelligent and implying they can’t read properly. Personal attacks do not bring anyone on your side.
Game-wise however, you’ve got me definitely questioning your motives.
On your vote in the wagon: Although I didn’t think the original reasons for your vote were valid, Wrath’s reaction was poor. Null-tell overall.
You do follow through on your original intention of looking at the bandwagon, and you come up with manho and tubby as scum. You call both tubby and bjl useless, however you suspect one and not the other. Does tubby’s activity mean he’s scum while bjl’s inactivity imply town?
Question: When and why did you change your opinion of ‘tubby following his meta’ to ‘tubby is scum’? This is a major shift as you go from saying “Oh that’s just Tubby for ya!” to “LOOK! HEATHEN!”.

Kyiv (replaced crazypianist1116 who replaced lrd)

CP semi-guarantees the existence of doctor in her first post. Why didn’t this get a little attention along the same lines as bjl’s flub? Because she mentioned it second?
Your case on tubby interests me. I’ll get to that in his section. Overall, Kyiv gives me the impression of a townie, however, CP’s comment is a definite admission she firmly believes there is a doc.

manho

Early on in the day, I was very confused as to the motives in your play. Firstly, your semi-defence of tubby is that he is always anti-town, so his hammer isn’t scummy. I disagree, as I’m getting the impression people think his play is anti-town no matter what. If we assume his short answers are a part of his meta, all we are left with is his actions. Ending the day early, when Wrath’s lynch was probable, did nothing except show impatience and possibly stifle talk.
Then I see multiple attempts at swaying Soyasushi to your point of view specifically. For example, mentioning she is the most townish. When he gets under pressure by Kyiv and Ojanen, we see a doc claim, and a claim he saved my slot. The fact he claimed doc with no counter-claim makes me not want to lynch him today. I’m not sure how I feel about the claim itself, but your confidence in Soyasushi would be logical if you saved her the night before.

Ojanen (replaced bjl who replaced Yernab)

As has been talked to death about, bjl’s first comment of the day is a common scum-tell. Then, bjl’s last post is weak and crap… as has already been noted. Ojanen subs in, and then builds a case on Zach and manho. The case on manho is soon dropped when he claims, but the case on Zach is still being pursued. As I said, I don’t know how I feel about manho’s doc claim, so your instant change in thought confuses me. Overall, I’d say you’re still scummy to me as the only defense you have on your predecessors’ odd play is ‘newbie’. Although this could be the case, I’m tentative to change my mind.

Starbuck (who replaced Meji Fan)

It goes without saying, but this will be focused on Meji as Starbuck has yet to post her analysis. She is less of a presence than day 1. However, she does sub out after a while due to real life commitments. She tends to be very independent in her conclusions. Not much else to say.

tubby216

So far, your odd first day play has been universally defended with the magical word ‘meta’. Your deadline vote makes a bit of sense, but overall is a bit scummy for me. It’s not really why I am questioning you now though.
Firstly, you never explain yourself unless asked. I don’t know if that is meta or whatever, but it’s not exactly the most pro-town thing ever. Secondly, Kyiv points this out:

I don't know that you're a poor player, but you certainly have poor points. In fact, you don't even have points. You just quote specific things, and say "WIFOM" or "Setting up mislynch". You can't expect people to take your word for it, you have to explain your reasonings, otherwise I'm just going to say you're talking out of your ass.

QFT. It’s almost like you’re leaving things up to the imagination. Just quoting things, and then saying buzz words, is crazy. It might be a good scum tactic to lay back and let others make your case for you by just prodding them with hints. Ucky.

Zachrulez

I said I’d be looking at you specifically, and I was. Let’s just start with… I’ve been happier? Day 1 was consistently a re-hash of other people’s arguments on various suspects. Day 2 starts off similar, when you are surprised of bjl’s lurking after Meji points it out. It was pretty obvious tubby’s first post of the day was throwing suspicion on both bjl and EtherealCookie… And look! Right after it we have Zach questioning EC’s behaviour. You once said that your vote on day 1 was not scummy but hypocritical at best. I’d say your vote was scummy considering your day 2 pattern of follow the leader.
In other news, I do like you questioning Ojanen on his belief Cookie is town… but you still haven’t answered the reverse (why you thought manho was town

before

his claim). ‘Coasting’ is not very town in my opinion, with or without being busy.
So far your only defense is that you’ve over-logged in games and are difficult to find time / motivation to get into this one.
About Mini 761, I’m finding that it became a town loss due to a mistake by a townie (and the fact that the vig was nightkilling town willy-nilly). I think that mistake could’ve come in either day phase or twilight, so the fact that it is in twilight is not an issue for me. Is there something I’m missing other than Hoopla’s mistaken contradiction of herself?

I’m going to let people respond before making my vote, but I suggest we do this fast as there are only 6 days left now. My biggest problem at this point is that, in my opinion, the 4 scummiest players (Ethereal, Ojanen, Tubby, and Zach) are all out battling each other. Crazy…

[PaltryExcuse]

Do you two, manho and tubby, have any comments on my two long analyses or should I assume I'm right in my thinking on you two?

[PaltryExcuse]

EBWOP: Sorry, that last post was really uninformative, so here goes.
What I think:
manho: Your doc claim came at a weird time, and the only explanation for it, is that you didn't think people could see your arguments as plausible without it. Why?

tubby: Your posting style leaves much to the imagination, and requires us to do the work. How is this not scummy behaviour?

[PaltryExcuse]

Whoops. He attacked you on your belief that manho was town. Not Cookie. The same thing I have suspicions about (the instantaneous switch when it looks like you have a target).

But actually, you do say at one point you think Cookie is town. Why is that?

[PaltryExcuse]

@Ojanen: A complete change in attitude / mindset can be scum trying to jump off a case with little backing. Hence why its weird that once manho claimed you're on the manho as town campaign. It is plausible that you were convinced, and the most serious detriment to your slot right now is the actions by your two predecessors.

@Zach: You responded to one part of my post, and none of Ojanen's most recent ones. It seems like you're avoiding questions you don't like to me.
Of the four listed in my analysis, you were the one I found most scummy... so:

Vote: Zachrulez

[PaltryExcuse]

Zach, you still haven't responded to part of my concerns with your play:
1. Your arguments seem to be a re-hash of other people's... though this has changed with a couple recent posts so it isn't as extreme.

2. Your defence on ending conversation in twilight was due to your fear of twilight talk, example Mini 761. However, I see that as a townie-error that could be committed whenever. Why is twilight talk in particular bad for town? If this goes unanswered you basically stilted conversation.

@EC: The timing of your vote seems very opportunistic. I'm sharing some concerns with Zach at this point.

[PaltryExcuse]

@Zach: I can understand that point of view on the twilight thing now that you've explained it better than just the reference of the game. I hadn't thought about it that way.

[PaltryExcuse]

david-villa-7 was replaced by EtherealCookie

And about the Soyasushi thing, I'm guessing wires got crossed between her and the mod.

[PaltryExcuse]

On PaltryExcuse (who repalced Soyasushi)

I don't care for Soya's contradiction in Post 32.
She point blankly says that you shouldn't be someone at L-3 in Rvs, and then states that she did it because of Meji's "OMGUS".

I think post 32 was a joke.

So far, I have to say yernab continues to strike me as suspicious. He posts a long post about what he would do as scum but does the exact opposite, perhaps in hopes that it would throw suspicion off himself. After all, if someone were scum, he would be trying hard to do what his townie self would do. Your scum self and town self should have some sort of difference, but in yernab's case he showed them to be complete opposites, which strikes me as trying too hard to look town.

Then when attack, he got on the defensive, started using the "=P" smiley and went a bit omgus. Also, he's withholding his vote - because he's trying to see who he should vote for so as to not seem as suspicious?

I'm struggling between whether that's a newb town tell or a newb scum tell.

I don't like how she alludes to meta when this is yernab's first game. Depending on his aligment, he obviously doesn't know how he would play as the opposite alignment yet.

I doubt she was alluding to meta. She is saying that he is setting himself up to do the town thing: He states what is townie and what is scummy, and then can easily do the 'townie' thing to appear that way.

@Meji: Smileys to me often appear to be some form of appeared friendliness. The fact that he only put those smileys after being attacked seemed to be "I'll be friendly so you'll stop voting for me please".

I don't really understand how using an emoticon can be suspicious. This game can get heated very quickly, and sometimes the use of emoticons/smileys is crucial for making something light hearted vice a personal attack.

I agree, the smiley argument is weak. For some reason though... I think Soyasushi also doesn't think it holds enormous amounts of weight.

I am not liking Soya's Post 84. She seems to get rather condescending towards yernab. I really didn't feel him getting desperate or defensive. It definitely feels like Soya is trying too hard to cast suspicion onto yernab. I also don't like how she brushes off that she brought up the subject about smileys and then blames yernab for bringing it up when she was the one who made the big deal.

She admits the argument you don't like is not a great one, and then she does attempt to show yernab as 'shifting attention'. There were only a few posts on the smiley argument, and yernab then claims he's going to go into a Vulcan mode and says "God forbid we actually try and have

fun

during this game". That's pretty defensive to me, and makes a bigger deal about the smileys than she was.

I definitely don't see the personal attacks that Soya alludes to yernab making in Post 122. Re-reading yernab, I don't see him being rude or disrespectful in anyway. Soya has been grasping quite a bit to get a case on yernab with this whole "trying to shift everyone's attention" stuff. I really didn't see him shifting attention. He called her bluff.

As you said, this game can get easily heated. yernab says she is suffering from 'unwarranted self-importance'. That's not exactly a positive comment, now is it? She took offence.

Soya's post 175 is odd to me because she thinks that bjl (who just replaced yernab) could really answer the question she's asking about yernab's actions. While yes, the replacement inherits the role and therefore the opinions of the rest of the players on that spot in the game, but you can't expect a replacement to know what their replacee was thinking.

But you can take your best guess, as I am doing now.

[PaltryExcuse]

Really, I was just giving you a different angle at which to look at her posts. Plus, any concerns you have of her could translate to my slot.

[PaltryExcuse]

13. In the event a lynch consensus is not reached by deadline, the player with the most votes will be lynched.

In the event of a tie, the player which reached the most votes first will be lynched.

EC will be lynched at deadline. So essentially if Kyiv or Starbuck votes for either of the two, they will be lynched unless someone unvotes.

[PaltryExcuse]

You've only been playing since August on this site. Please stop acting like you are the almighty god of mafia.

I'm not. I'm just not blind. And I'm going to laugh if you honestly lynch me. Town's just being led around by scum, eh?

This kinda stuff (appealing to emotion) is the kind of thing that will make me want to switch my vote over, EC. In no way am I convinced you're not scum.

[PaltryExcuse]

Honestly, I'm a little bit tentative to lynch a claimed doc. I've never been convinced completely at the legitimacy of the doc claim, and manho's most recent post is scary stuff. Cookie did point out two people to look at depending on Wrath's flip... On the other hand it has been blatantly obvious that both manho and tubby have been searching for the lynch of Ojanen and Cookie consecutively.

I'm not liking manho's argument either, but I'd rather lynch tubby than manho. If he's the doc I'd hate to lynch him at this point.

EBWOP: Sorry, that last post was really uninformative, so here goes.
What I think:
manho: Your doc claim came at a weird time, and the only explanation for it, is that you didn't think people could see your arguments as plausible without it. Why?

tubby: Your posting style leaves much to the imagination, and requires us to do the work. How is this not scummy behaviour?

i do not believe it is my job to spoon feed you guys everything. I like to alow you to figure it out for yourselfs it builds pride

On further review, I don't like this logic at all. Making a case is the point in trying to lynch mafia, and the sarcastic comment that it builds pride is ludicrous. Spoon feed? We're asking for explanations, and if you have to spoon feed, I suggest you do. It is way too convenient for scum to just put out possibilities and allow others to make a case for you.

Unvote
Vote: tubby216

[PaltryExcuse]

I'm not calling you an ass, I'm calling you scummy.

[PaltryExcuse]

According to my count:

EtherealCookie (3) - tubby216, Zachrulez, manho

tubby216 (2) - EtherealCookie, PaltryExcuse
Zachrulez (1) - Ojanen
manho (1) - Kyiv

Not Voting: Starbuck

[PaltryExcuse]

Those quotes show EC saying he thought Wrath will show scum, not town. Huh?

[PaltryExcuse]

Well, we all know how I feel about Zach... but I'm tentative to vote due to wrong quicklynch = deathness.
Here's what I'm thinking right now:
Option 1: We lynch Zach. Part of me is really up for this... as yesterday I wanted him lynched and nothing has changed. Me mind and gut think he's scum.
Option 2: We have goons, one of the two is lying... but this is too obscure to tell (and unlikely in my mind). In this case, tubby would be lying as he's claiming to have been roleblock'd. I guess in this case we lynch tubby.
Option 3: manho thought he was going to be lynched, claimed, and now fellow mafia tubby knows the cop claim is feasible without a counter. We lynch tubby or manho. Again, due to my suspicions on Zach, I'm leaning towards lynching him... but if tubby is full of crap we insta-lose.
Option 4: No-lynch. We could be left in the same situation... but we'd lose a member. If tubby is telling the truth, he's roleblocked. Otherwise, he claims roleblocked. I don't see much gained there.

This probably reads like newbish thinking... because it is. This type of situation is very new to me and I feel like I'm missing something obvious here. Either way, lynching Zach before his response is too hasty for my liking. No more votes on him until we see a response, please. Right now, in my mind, we lynch Zach or tubby... but I'm gonna say it's going to take convincing to make me lynch tubby.

Starbuck: I know you to be a thinking player, so why the quick-vote of Zach?

[PaltryExcuse]

So, either Zach or tubby is scum, but probably not both as I doubt mutual bussing is what is happening here.
I think Kyiv is town, as I've said before... although I don't like manho's play per se, I think it makes sense there was a night kill N1 and without a counter-claim I'm saying he's doc... and I'm town...
That leaves Starbuck as a possible third person to lynch today for me as I truly believe she is scum partner with one of you. Possibly, we even find the roleblocker and get a free investigation.
This is very much based on who I think is town, rather than gameplay though, so I don't put too much faith in this strategy. I think I need to re-read irregardless.

So in case it wasn't clear, I'm

FOS'ing: Starbuck

.

[PaltryExcuse]

I just realized, if right, on the unlikely possibility Starbuck is lynched today, there is no need for any more investigations.
The lynch should be either Zach or tubby.

[PaltryExcuse]

Definitely rereading.

To the doctor: Don't reveal yourself at the moment.

Upon re-reading I forgot about this post. CrazyPianist seems to KNOW there is a doctor. Kyiv is not as townie as I once led myself to believe. Why was this post ignored when it came out when bjl and EC were getting flak for their doctor comments?

@Tubby: What posts in particular by CrazyPianist made you investigate her?

@Zach: Your vote of Starbuck at the end of day 2 confuses me as to the timing. It could be read as you did find Starbuck suspicious at that time, or was just mafia fleeing off a lynch. Problem: Why change your vote when pointing it out would have sufficed, and did you think that the town would have switched to a Starbuck lynch?

[PaltryExcuse]

Secondly, I'd like both tubby & Zach to think about who they believe is scum of the other 4 of us. If we lynch correctly today, any info either of you give will be useful later.

[PaltryExcuse]

Firstly, I'd like to apologize. I'm getting the feeling that I've offended you in some way when it wasn't my intention to at all.

Point #4: This could be me misunderstanding the mafia-scum lingo, but don't we lynch during the day? Or is it considered night lynch as well as night kill? If so, if we lynch you, and you're town, there is no tomorrow.

Also, I would like to say this: If tubby isn't scum, his claim clears manho. The only way manho can be scum in my eyes is if
a) No night kill
b) tubby is also scum seeing as he is claiming cop and roleblocked and there has been no counterclaim.
Am I missing something?

[PaltryExcuse]

@Zach: Sorry to pressure you when your sick, but right now I'd really like an analysis on the other 4 of us and I am kinda waiting on it.

[PaltryExcuse]

@Zach: Repondez s'il vous plait. I've seen you post on your other game and would like some of your time as well. In case you don't remember exactly what it is I want:
Comments on the 4 that aren't you or tubby. Basically, a rudimentary PBPA.

[PaltryExcuse]

You're right, impatience is ruling the day for me right now.

[PaltryExcuse]

You made a damn good point about Kyiv. She does seem to believe manho is doc today, despite voting for him at the end of yesterday.
Two reasons: That post where she wants to know who he'll protect. And believing tubby means believing manho.

Now that you've put your analysis up, I have to put up this post in order to get something deciphered:

Okay, Im definitely looking at bfl, first one to get to speculating on the doc is suspicious, not entirely unlike 'congratulating the doctor'

how/why is it suspicious? what other explanation is there? I guess it's possible the mafia chose to not kill, but that's not likely and doesn't make sense. If we had been past the 72 hour time-limit for night, I would have considered the possibility that the mafia didn't get their orders in.

Why not? It gets everyone thinking doctor, and then the doctor (if there is one) becomes tempted to claim with the information they think they gained. It's actually a more common tactic than one might think. (Also consider that it can make for a good fake claim by mafia later in the game should it become clear to them that there is no doctor.)

close ach, but what i believe ethreal and bfl are looking for is the cop claim.

see scum don't nite kill, leaves town thin doc suceeded , cop feel safe to claim knowing there is a doc to protect him, scum kill cop

however if we have one or both roles both should be quiet about who they are

In this post, tubby seems to know:
A) There is a cop (scum is looking for cop claim)
B) That there are two goons (cop is safe to claim though there is no doc)

I am thoroughly confused by this alone.

[PaltryExcuse]

@Mod: We haven't heard from Starbuck since Sunday. Prod please?

[PaltryExcuse]

It's something like this that makes me believe more that Tubby is cop, or very meticulously planned scum. I'm more inclined to believe the former.

I'm starting to believe that perhaps Starbuck might be the better lynch.

Paragraph one: I agree.
Paragraph two: No. We go from a VERY probable 50/50 chance for me to an assumed 50/50 chance. No no no no no no no no no.......... no.

[PaltryExcuse]

Exactly, even more extreme then I was making it.

[PaltryExcuse]

*Bump* Past all of the locked games.

[PaltryExcuse]

Right now tubby, I have to believe your claim based on the fact you naturally play scummy while town. While true, I'm feeling very hesitant to vote. Here's why:
If not completely evident by my D2 voting, I did not think EC was as scummy as either of the two of you at the end of the day. My change over to you from Zach, tubby, was because of this.
However, people's reasons for investigations are sometimes based on a gut feeling when one can't point out anything in particular that is scummy. Investigating someone who is underpressure could clear them, or damn them. An investigation of you, Zach, is what I would have done, even if I put myself in tubby's shoes. These seem to be Tubby's reasons for investigating.

So at this point, I am willing to wait until Starbuck posts, see if she can put some light on the situation either way. I'd also like manho to put his opinions in (he just dropped by to say he believes tubby and protected Starbuck).

[PaltryExcuse]

And Starbuck: I wish you and your family all the best!

[PaltryExcuse]

Do you mean how do I think tubby plays as scum normally or how I think Tubby plays as scum in this game?

[PaltryExcuse]

So it's rhetorical and I shouldn't answer it? Which question am I answering for myself? One requires some meta research and the other is something I came to the conclusion of yesterday (D2).

[PaltryExcuse]

I think you've just convinced me to do some meta research... phooey. Good thing tubby keeps his wiki up to date. Off I go...

[PaltryExcuse]

...Reading some other games of tubby's have left me with this conclusion: If tubby is scum or if tubby is town, I can't point out any differences. Meta = null-tell.
Which means I'm left with scummy behaviour on both sides. I'll ponder on this a little bit more, and wait until we hear from manho and Starbuck.

[PaltryExcuse]

As time goes on I get more and more pushed to the middle, rather than the pro-Zach lynch feeling I had at the beginning of the day. I still feel that Zach has been, up until his vote on Starbuck, sitting back and going with the flow... essentially going on whatever lynch was most popular. He has come out fighting today, and tubby seems to be relying on his cop claim understandably. I still doubt there was no night one kill, so that clears manho for me. I've started to even think we may have a play at mutual bussing as both Tubby and Zach were under pressure yesterday... though this is not a strong feeling. Both believe that the 2nd scum is in the pairing of Starbuck and Kyiv though, with both thinking a different one of the two is scum. I'm not sure how I feel about that.
After all this confusion, I feel I may be overthinking the issue, and my original gut on Zach when entering the game was correct.
Off of myself for a bit:

tubby216

i may be an ass but i am not the correct lynch for today

What were you trying to accomplish with this post? Upon seeing it D2, it convinced me of nothing except that your guilt was more probable.
Secondly, your promise of investigating Starbuck is understandable, however if Zach is not the RB then it is all for nothing.

Zachrulez

2 days to the deadline.

I'm happy with my Wraith vote, just to make sure that's clear.

What's isn't clear to me is why you were happy with that vote. I still think the case on WoS was weak and he was lynched for a lack of defense / deadline.

No lynch

Just bringing this back up. I'm starting to see this as more plausible for some weird reason. If we lose either Zach or tubby, then the other is scum... so I doubt that'd happen. So, if mafia NKs, we're left with one less target. I think it might simplify things at this point. I dunno. Could someone tell me reasons why we shouldn't NL? I'm not convinced by my own anymore.

[PaltryExcuse]

@manho: Your V/LA ended yesterday. Where are you?

[PaltryExcuse]

@Mod: Prod on manho please.

[PaltryExcuse]

Ya, I don't think I'm going to be swayed to vote for tubby today. I'm less sure of myself than at the beginning of today, and I think I'm ready to lynch... so:

Vote: Zachrulez

Here's hoping...

[PaltryExcuse]

Got prodded. Still here. Don't know what to say at this point.

[PaltryExcuse]

@Mod: Are 3 people being replaced? (Tubby, Starbuck and Kyiv) I just read the Queue. Is this the point where a game is considered to be abandoned?

[PaltryExcuse]

Ya, no kidding. I think the mafia at this point is REAL LIFE. It has taken out half of those remaining in the game.

[PaltryExcuse]

Not at all, Starbuck. Take the time you need.

[PaltryExcuse]

I would think not if you're here... but I know hohum was looking for your replacement according to the Newbie Queue.
Might want to PM him.

[PaltryExcuse]

unvote

until I hear from the replacements.

[PaltryExcuse]

Just pointing this out, but, Kyiv had not one but two chances to vote out Zach if her and Tubby/replacement were scumpartners. I'm crossing that possibility off my list. (Although my vote is probably going back on Zach unless something convinces me otherwise by either replacement).

[PaltryExcuse]

Could she of? Then that doesn't spell well for you. That only leaves manho or you as a tubby-scumbuddy... and I think there was a kill night one.

[PaltryExcuse]

Er, I guess that's a confession of guilt. So...

Vote: Zachrulez

Yeehah?

[PaltryExcuse]

Oh by the way, Mr. Finch, welcome to the game.
To answer your questions:
1. Nope, we never saw any of Sanjay either.
2. Manho claimed mid day 2 under pressure from Ojanen/Kyiv.

[PaltryExcuse]

Glad you're back Starbuck.

Zach basically admitted his guilt, so I'm feeling pretty confident we've got scum. I think we're just waiting for the flip now...

[PaltryExcuse]

Has someone PMed him or should I? No point in him getting a PM from each of us.

[PaltryExcuse]

Messages sent. Hohum may be going through some personal stuff right now, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in this case.

[PaltryExcuse]

Who did you protect manho?
Who did you investigate Mr. Finch?

[PaltryExcuse]

Ya, I would say it was a successful save by manho... I guess we'll wait on the Mod and manho to deliver some news.

[PaltryExcuse]

Ya, I'm inclined to agree with that logic. I'll just wait until manho comes back and gives us his results... just in case he saved Starbuck and the whole world implodes.

[PaltryExcuse]

Screw it.

Vote: Starbuck

[PaltryExcuse]

The logic for me is this: Either you or Kyiv are scum at this point.
manho is cleared, without a doubt. Tubby / Mr. Finch claimed he was roleblocked night 1. Only way manho could be scum is if he was scum with Tubby / Mr. Finch.
2. Zach is scum.
3. There are only 2 scum (I know, redundant)
Therefore, manho is not scum, and is doctor.

If you assume there was a kill night 1. I am cleared, as manho claimed to protect me that night.

So it becomes the question of, do I think Zach / Tubby were mutually bussing one another. No, I don't. I've had more than enough time to mull it over. If you could give me some indication as to this, I'll change my vote.

Therefore, you or Kyiv are scum. With 5 alive and 1 scum, we have 2 lynches. I have 2 choices. You're just going first.

[PaltryExcuse]

Is there a downside to my logic? I mean, Day 3 I was going through and deciding between Zach and Tubby for scum, and I've come to the conclusion that they aren't bussing. From my point of view we pretty much have this in the bag.

So I will ask you:
Do you think I've been scummy? Do you think there was a night kill night 1?
A yes to the 2nd question means I've been cleared in your mind.

Do you think Mr. Finch's slot is scummy? Do you think that tubby and Zach were bussing one another?
A no to the second question means Finch has been cleared in your mind.

[PaltryExcuse]

Sorry for being non-existant these past couple days. School got the best of me, and I will catch up after some sleep.

I'll

unvote

until I catch up.

[PaltryExcuse]

i think there is still a small chance that Mr Finch is scum.

PaltryExcuse should be cleared as there is no reason for scum to no-kill night 1.
i am also cleared as i can only be scum with mr finch, but now zach flip scum. mr finch confirm there is a roleblocker, so there exist a doc, that's me.

but it is still possible that mr finch is the last scum, knowing there is no roleblocker and the doc claimed, so there is no cop and it is safe to claim cop.

OK, I blinked and missed something here. Tubby Claimed Day 3 and claimed he also claimed he was roleblocked. I said "I think". I can't confirm whether there is an RB or not as I am cop, not scum.

How else does someone get NO result when investigating? Your existence alone, along with manho's, should say to you: there is a Roleblocker. From your point of view, you should know. Secondly, getting no result on a person who is still alive is a good sign that there is a roleblocker for a cop.

First off, credit where it's due:

You may talk with your partner at Night, and send me a choice via PM of who you would like to kill/roleblock (your team can do both if both of you live;

if only you survive, you must choose one action or the other

).

Mafia Roleblocker PM on page 1. However, this does not clear Starbuck or me of being scum; all it does is prevent Mr Finch from being completely cleared. However, I think about it this way: if Mr Finch is scum, the only person he would logically roleblock is Manho. Seeing that manho's ability is only useful if Mafia attempts to NK, the roleblock is in turn, made useless. And since Manho protected Mr Finch, we would have seen a kill, unless Mr Finch tried to kill himself. So Mr Finch is still mostly cleared, however he is still a possibility. I still think the prudent thing to do is choose between me or Starbuck for

today's

lynch.

If Mr. Finch is the final scum, there is no roleblocker. Mr. Finch would have to be a goon as I firmly believe we have a doc in manho. If Mr. Finch is the final scum, he would have to of no killed, no action.

I really don't care for Kyiv's case because not even based on anything I did. It's based on my predecessor and on Zach. She states questions about Meji's behavior that I can't answer because I'm not Meji. She's a different person than me. I don't know what she was thinking. It's very easy for her to make a case about everything that I can't control.

So I will

Vote: Kyiv

I would argue that Meji's relationship to Zach is important, as any previous suspicions or suspicious behaviour by predecessors translates to the replacement. Isn't that why you were commenting on Soyasushi's behaviour? (even if you didn't expect me to answer?) Explaining how a town player in general would react / do those actions is the responsibility of the replacee.


About the most recent discourse between Kyiv and Mr. Finch:
Mr. Finch, you asked her what her conversation with Zach was about. The only way she could have a private conversation with Zach was if she was scum. What you asked was very leading, and scum or town yields little.

[PaltryExcuse]

@Starbuck: Do you have a case on Kyiv beyond not liking her attack on you about Meji's play?

[PaltryExcuse]

I guess that's no, on Proposition 1: 'wait for Starbuck to make a case on Kyiv'.

[PaltryExcuse]

So, I take it by that last post... we haven't won then.

[PaltryExcuse]

Ya, the wave of replacements hurt you two badly. For one, both Ojanen and I got a scum read on Zach... although I also got one on Tubby so I'd say Ojanen wins for most accurate.

Really, my suspicions on Starbuck really began when she:
A) Late voted.
B) Then insta-voted after Tubby's cop claim.

As the only person who I'd ever played a game with, I knew Starbuck was a thinking player, and as town would be less likely prone to instantly believing Tubby's cop claim.

Either way, I have to say I royally sucked this game Day 3 & 4, and was pulled through on the power of the cop and Kyiv.

@Starbuck: I think at this point, if we're ever in a game together, we're going to be on different sides.

[PaltryExcuse]

Oh, by the way, thanks for replacement modding VRK! And to Starbuck for continuing when she has some RL issues and Mr. Finch for late game replacing.

Twas fun!

(Woo! 2-0!)

[PaltryExcuse]

During my Night 2 re-read, I really thought it was a Zach-tubby scum team. The starting of Day 3 confused me to no end.

[PaltryExcuse]

@Sanjay: Do you have your old post? If so I'd like to see it.

[PaltryExcuse]

Don't feel bad about finding Tubby scummy. He WAS scummy, and then he just sat back and acted like none of it mattered just because he happened to be the cop.

Part of me, for excitement's sake, was kind of hoping you and Tubby were partners. Thanks though, it makes me feel a bit better about my play.

However, Finch's posts really read pro-town. He was making up leaps and bounds for Tubby's odd posting style in my mind.

Oh, question: You guys did kill Soyasushi night 1 right? So Zach, why kill someone who's tunneling on a townie?

[PaltryExcuse]

I will say though, based on how this game went, in newbie games I think the roleblocker should have both actions. If there are no power roles, there is no change. If there are power roles, the roleblocker is severely outclassed.