Mafia 108 - Mafia With The Quickness - over!

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Bogre

Go Bandwagon

[Zachrulez]

Why would you need a dice tag to chose a bandwagon?...

[Zachrulez]

Why would you need a dice tag to chose a bandwagon?...

To pick one randomly, I assume?

Why don't you have any thoughts beyond 'why did he use dice'?

Unvote
Vote: Zachrulez

Interesting assumption.

Probably because every time I look at a post, there's 20 more.

[Zachrulez]

But, I'm fine with a bandwagon on Netopolis at this point in time.

I don't like his stance on avoiding bandwagons.

It's certainly preferable to dragging the game along with RVS or RQS or anything like that.

Unvote: Vote: Netopolis

[Zachrulez]

What about an avoidance of bandwagons which generate reactions and information?

[Zachrulez]

Actually I do get the same vibe as Netlava from that post.

It's heavy on sarcasm... and possibly even gloating.

[Zachrulez]

I agree that reasoning is needed for a vote. Unreasoned votes are anti-town. Posting reasoning gives information to the town which allows for better evaluation.

Disagree with this.

Sometimes voting without a reason can be effective at getting a reaction. This is not to say that the vote doesn't need to be explained later though.

[Zachrulez]

Actually,

Unvote: Netlava. Vote: Zachrulez.

He's been too quiet, I feel, plus his reasons for suspecting Mae and Neto aren't good.

You've been a tad more active than me, but in general that statement can just as easily be turned back around onto you.

Working on catching up now. I think there's something like 60 posts since I last looked, plus the other 180 or so to have another look at...

[Zachrulez]

And if you want to go into more detail about what is wrong with my suspicions on Mae and Neto, feel free.

[Zachrulez]

Probably good timing, since I've only been at a computer for a little over the last hour.

I was around checking games yesterday evening, and search will confirm this, but I didn't really post much of anything anywhere yesterday evening. (Unless you want to argue I'm scum in all my games.)

[Zachrulez]

Regarding Neto: Your only reason for voting him is for his avoiding bandwagons. How exactly is that scummy?

Didn't his very first post actually discourage bandwagoning in general? That's how I interpretted it. Maybe we have different feelings about how to take that, but I don't really like it at all.

Regarding Mae: Again, only reason for suspicion is you got the "same bad vibe" that Netlava did, going on to explain that Mae's post (I can't remember which now, but it's beside the point) is laden with "sarcasm, possibly even gloating." That's just not a good tell.

Those the only two suspicions you've had all game. Whereas I've been a little more rounded out. That's why I feel the lurker argument is more applicable to you than me.[/quote]

Yeah, I find gloating to be a pretty good tell, scum bragging to town and such. In her case it's not very clear though, but the post doesn't really give me a good feeling.

[Zachrulez]

Doing this again with fixed quote tags. I need to use preview more...

Regarding Neto: Your only reason for voting him is for his avoiding bandwagons. How exactly is that scummy?

Didn't his very first post actually discourage bandwagoning in general? That's how I interpretted it. Maybe we have different feelings about how to take that, but I don't really like it at all.

Regarding Mae: Again, only reason for suspicion is you got the "same bad vibe" that Netlava did, going on to explain that Mae's post (I can't remember which now, but it's beside the point) is laden with "sarcasm, possibly even gloating." That's just not a good tell.

Those the only two suspicions you've had all game. Whereas I've been a little more rounded out. That's why I feel the lurker argument is more applicable to you than me.

Yeah, I find gloating to be a pretty good tell, scum bragging to town and such. In her case it's not very clear though, but the post doesn't really give me a good feeling.

[Zachrulez]

Didn't his very first post actually discourage bandwagoning in general? That's how I interpretted it. Maybe we have different feelings about how to take that, but I don't really like it at all.

Again, why is this scummy?

Well I tend to see bandwagoning as a good way to start the game/get out of RVS/get out of RQS/get out of whatever is used to start the game.

Discouraging it is something I see as an attempt to stall getting the game moving, which I do find scummy.

Yeah, I find gloating to be a pretty good tell, scum bragging to town and such. In her case it's not very clear though, but the post doesn't really give me a good feeling.

Why would scum brag to town? Wouldn't that just give away their identity?

It would, but it does happen. Andytony does it multiple times in this game. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10864

[Zachrulez]

I'm getting better. Page 2 and I have 4 pretty solid reads. Neto and Mae as scum. Haylen and Saint as town.

*claps slowly* Way to go - Saint is voting your town read and Haylen is voting with you. Bravo, bravo.

Possible gloating is in the way you hit KMD for his failure to keep SK from voting one of his town reads.

[Zachrulez]

Possible gloating is in the way you hit KMD for his failure to keep SK from voting one of his town reads.

Ahm, no. It's closely related to that, but it isn't that. If KMD thinks that Haylen is town, and SK was voting for Haylen, I couldn't see how he thought that they were both town. It confused me, therefore I replied on that sarcastic way. Understood?

Eh? Must one of them be scum if they are voting for each other? I'm not sure what's confusing about that.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, 249, I gloat as town.

Yeah, I don't blindly vote it anymore. (Had experience with town gloaters that I didn't have before recently.)

There are specific things I look for now that are more definitive. (The linked game should help with exactly what those things are.)

[Zachrulez]

Unvote, Vote Zachrulez

Active lurking. I know you're around Zach, why dont you come out and play?

Appennine mafia all over again. I'm being drowned by the posting.

I've noticed SK's vote moving around a lot, most recently letting Netlava off the hook for lurking and never addressing his suspicions to move his vote to me.

I'm interested to see what he thinks of Netlava now since Netlava has gone quite a while without posting.

[Zachrulez]

Also Haylen and KMD strike me as town.

[Zachrulez]

Face it Haylen, I can read you like a book.

I am your worst nightmare.

[Zachrulez]

Hey where's Bogre?

For someone who voted me for having relatively little to say, he hasn't had a lot to say in a while.

... I love playing with hypocrites.

[Zachrulez]

Hey guys, I have a bit of a flu bug going on right now, so there probably won't be too much out of me in the way of posting today.

[Zachrulez]

Sorry to hear, Zach. Although it is getting odd that whenever I vote you, you decide to post.

Yeah, I actually put off posting that notice in all my games.

You can think what you want about the timing.

I'm feeling a little better now, but I probably won't be having a real look at this game until tomorrow.

[Zachrulez]

I don't believe the claim.

Scum love hider claims.

[Zachrulez]

How does Neto's claim make him more likely to be town? I don't understand that reasoning.

I see the claim as the perfect kind of low maintanence, perfect explanation for one's continued survival over the course of the game kind of claim.

Also not really liking those quick unvotes.

[Zachrulez]

How does Neto's claim make him more likely to be town? I don't understand that reasoning.

I see the claim as the perfect kind of low maintanence, perfect explanation for one's continued survival over the course of the game kind of claim.

Also not really liking those quick unvotes.

I imagine you wouldn't, since it now allows people to focus more on you.

Which means what exactly?

You didn't really answer the question in the post either...

[Zachrulez]

Only the fact that I've read many many games on this site... and most of the time that someone claims any kind of a hiding role, that person is usually scum.

If you think about the mechanics around that kind of claim, it actually makes sense that it makes for a really good claim for scum.

And if he is scum, who would be the most likely people to unvote him? This really doesn't take a lot of science to figure out.

[Zachrulez]

To everyone still voting Netopalis: Why aren't you buying the claim? What exactly has Netopalis done that warranted the claim in the first place?

Pretty sure I made this clear the first time I answered it.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote: Haylen.

Point made. I do disagree with your case against Neto, however.

I prefer a

Vote: Zachrulez.

He's largely been avoiding the Neto controversy, except to say he doesn't like him (in a generalish sort of way) and to claim scum love hider types of claims, neither of which I feel are lynch-worthy.

I don't see how I've been avoiding it....

[Zachrulez]

Do you have a particular reason to believe the claim? Other than the fact that he claimed?

[Zachrulez]

Do you have a particular reason to believe the claim? Other than the fact that he claimed?

The claim doesn't make me think he's scummier, if that's what you mean. I've maintained that I think Neto is town, and that the arguments against him have been crap. The claim doesn't do anything to make me think otherwise.

Even in light of the many games I have played in where I have seen half a dozen hider claims from someone who was scum, and EXACTLY ZERO from pro-town players?

That could have nothing to do with the fact that I want him lynched... nope, not at all.

[Zachrulez]

Or the fact that he doesn't really seem to be scum hunting at all...

He's spent a lot of time defending himself... not to my satisfaction btw. Scumhunting posts have sorely been lacking.

Let's not forget that ridiculous vote on Ellibereth either.

[Zachrulez]

Do you have a particular reason to believe the claim? Other than the fact that he claimed?

The claim doesn't make me think he's scummier, if that's what you mean. I've maintained that I think Neto is town, and that the arguments against him have been crap. The claim doesn't do anything to make me think otherwise.

Even in light of the many games I have played in where I have seen half a dozen hider claims from someone who was scum, and EXACTLY ZERO from pro-town players?

That could have nothing to do with the fact that I want him lynched... nope, not at all.

Links or it didn't happen.

And even at that, it could just as easily be you using that as an excuse to vote someone you know is town...

Hahaha...

The odds that he'll flip town are ridiculously low. So I don't need any excuses. I can own up to being wrong if it happens, but I doubt I will be.

[Zachrulez]

Yah, but you made no mention of those things earlier.

Figured it wasn't necissary/that it was obvious.

Apparently I figured wrong.

[Zachrulez]

The odds that he'll flip town are ridiculously low. So I don't need any excuses. I can own up to being wrong if it happens, but I doubt I will be.

Can I say I told you so if I turn out to be right?

Sure.

Every fiber of my being tells me it's the right lynch, and I don't understand how everyone else can't see it.

[Zachrulez]

One of the games is already linked in my ISO 12 post.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11845

In that one Alexhans does it but is town.

I don't have the drive to look up the exact posts where the infractions occurred.

[Zachrulez]

Oh great, I may be the preferred lynch by tomorrow afternoon, and I'm not sure I will even be awake by then.

[Zachrulez]

What I don't understand is how the willingness to lynch Neto just faded just because he claimed a hiding role.

It's ridiculous, I can't believe I am being considered for a lynch over him.

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Netopolis

Come on people, give him the death he deserves.

[Zachrulez]

Come on people, give him the death he deserves.

You do realize we had a super-duper-fast wagon on Netty and he got lynched, right? Anything to say about that?

Yeah, the movement toward it was so lightning fast it literally caused my head to spin.

There's no way all those votes are town.

[Zachrulez]

Holy farklesticks, half an hour and we've already got a whole page of stuff.

This only proves that we have a crap-load of time on our hands. Yay.

There's no way all those votes are town.

Uhhhh, so, who isn't town?

Netopolis, you.

Oh heeeeey, what do you think about the wagon?

[Zachrulez]

I don't like Zach's subtle attack on arguably the most pro-town player in this game (Maemuki). At least the most pro-town player on the Netlava wagon (well, besides me, but I have to say that ).

Not subtle at all. I don't agree with your assessment of Mae.

[Zachrulez]

Also yeah... what the hell? Subtle attack? What's SK on?

[Zachrulez]

Also yeah... what the hell? Subtle attack? What's SK on?

Ok, so you don't agree that Mae is pro-town. I probably shouldn't have used the word "subtle." The grammar Nazis can go ahead and lynch me now.

There's a world of difference between direct and subtle.

[Zachrulez]

So why is Neto town KMD?

[Zachrulez]

So why is Neto town KMD?

His claim.

That is lame.

So is your logic that I am scum with Yos.

He could have simply voted for Netopolis. Engineering a bandwagon with that little time is far from easy to do.

[Zachrulez]

I would love an explanation as to why Neto's claim makes him more likely to be town as well...

[Zachrulez]

He could have simply voted for Netopolis. Engineering a bandwagon with that little time is far from easy to do.

Obviously not that difficult, as it happened in what, 54 minutes?

And who does that say more for? Me and Yos, or the voters who made that possible?

[Zachrulez]

If you can't make the logic work, argue the result I guess.

[Zachrulez]

But of course your attributing who went where to the conclusion that I am scum, which is also WIFOM.

Why lynch me when you can save me for later and get a really bad quick lynch after all?

[Zachrulez]

And why does the logic NOT apply to Netopolis?

[Zachrulez]

And why does the logic NOT apply to Netopolis?

I never said it doesn't.

Yet you vote for me, and show no interest in him.

[Zachrulez]

The fact that most of the votes moved from me and most of the votes on Neto stayed put indicates pretty clearly that it's far more likely that the scum were on my wagon.

Why does it only seem obvious to me?

Ugh.

[Zachrulez]

The fact that most of the votes moved from me and most of the votes on Neto stayed put indicates pretty clearly that it's far more likely that the scum were on my wagon.

Hrmm, yet it seems like Netopalis has a large bandwagon already- one you're fully on.

So it seems that it might have worked, the alternate wagon, huh?

Not sure what you're talking about here, because I had nothing to do with it.

[Zachrulez]

The fact that most of the votes moved from me and most of the votes on Neto stayed put indicates pretty clearly that it's far more likely that the scum were on my wagon.

How does that follow?

My theory, based on their desire to lynch me, and then Netlava, and the lack of interest in lynching Neto.

[Zachrulez]

Urgh, not feeling good today. Will try and post something later tonight, but no promises.

Maybe whatever I've had on and off for the last few weeks has spread?

[Zachrulez]

I think SaintKerrigan is scum.

He spent a lot of time saying that Neto's bandwagon was unjustified, and a day 1 all over the place with wishy washy voting, most of which where he couldn't decide whether he wanted to vote for me, Haylen, or Netlava.

Day two consisted of him turning against Neto to an extent, saying that the pr flips made his claim less likely to be true, while conveniently never actually putting his vote on Netopolis and exploring other suspects. Maybe he didn't expect Netopolis to be lynched that quickly?

Also this

I don't like Zach's subtle attack on arguably the most pro-town player in this game (Maemuki). At least the most pro-town player on the Netlava wagon (well, besides me, but I have to say that ).

is standing out like a sore thumb to me, especially considering SK's current position on Mae. (What changed your read on her btw?)

Oh and of course rolefishing...

Vote: Saintkerrigan

[Zachrulez]

Busy day at work today.

Will look at the thread tonight.

[Zachrulez]

I still prefer lynching SK by a long shot.

He still looks far scummier than anyone else to me, and nothing he has said has changed my mind about that.

[Zachrulez]

Go read post 873.

[Zachrulez]

Nice OMGUS SK...

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, that's why you suddenly became interested in that post right nao, and ignored it when it was posted at the time.

[Zachrulez]

You mean this, Zach?

I think SaintKerrigan is scum.

He spent a lot of time saying that Neto's bandwagon was unjustified, and a day 1 all over the place with wishy washy voting, most of which where he couldn't decide whether he wanted to vote for me, Haylen, or Netlava.

That's not called wishy-washy voting. It's called not being certain who exactly is scum, so I move my vote to who I think is suspicious. Isn't that something we're supposed to do as town? Oh wait, why am I asking you? Your vote hardly moved at all once it got stuck on Netopalis. And on top of that, you didn't really state good reasons for voting Neto until pressured into doing so.

Just because you didn't understand my vote (Or apparently want to understand it.) doesn't mean it wasn't justified.

Day two consisted of him turning against Neto to an extent, saying that the pr flips made his claim less likely to be true, while conveniently never actually putting his vote on Netopolis and exploring other suspects. Maybe he didn't expect Netopolis to be lynched that quickly?

I never actually said Neto was scum. I just said I was doubting his claim. What you're stating that I was doing and what I actually did are two entirely different things. Also, I did too explore other suspects. What are you talking about?

So if Neto is not a hider then he's... (I'll let you finish that thought.)

Also this

I don't like Zach's subtle attack on arguably the most pro-town player in this game (Maemuki). At least the most pro-town player on the Netlava wagon (well, besides me, but I have to say that ).

is standing out like a sore thumb to me, especially considering SK's current position on Mae. (What changed your read on her btw?)

I'm pretty sure I already explained that my read on Mae changed because of the recent flips and Mae's reaction (or seeming lack thereof) to the Netopalis controversy.

You must not have explained it well, because I don't understand the change of read.

Oh and of course rolefishing...

Pbbt. Whether I was intentionally doing that or not is debatable.

What WERE you doing then?

One other thing. I'm pretty sure I've seen every single one of Zach's arguments spoken previously by other people. He's not been active, he typically only responds when called for (or posts to avoid the prod), and he's parroting other arguments.

Hmm...

Vote: Zachrulez.

I'm not forgetting you today, Zach.

Ohhh look, accusations and no citations! Awesome!

Your vote is still OMGUS.

[Zachrulez]

Not that you'll believe me, but I was busy on late Thursday and most of Friday. Today I finally had time to ISO people, and I remembered you, Zach. You've not exactly been the paragon of towniness.

I was pretty busy at work on both Thursday and Friday. But hey, I'm lying and it's scummy lurking for me, but it's perfectly all right for you to argue that huh?

[Zachrulez]

Just because you didn't understand my vote (Or apparently want to understand it.) doesn't mean it wasn't justified.

I guess this depends on what other people believe. In my opinion, it's scummy. What do other people think?

Appealing to majority?

So if Neto is not a hider then he's... (I'll let you finish that thought.)

Oh, come on. I said I

doubted

Neto's claim, not that I

disbelieved

it. You're twisting my words there, Zach. That's not nice.

Feels like you're trying to have it both ways here. The question still stands btw.

You must not have explained it well, because I don't understand the change of read.

Again, I changed on Mae because Neto flipped scum, and I didn't recall seeing a lot of interaction one way or the other between Mae and Neto. Comprende?

In games that are large enough, players tend to escape my notice quite often if they're not on my scumdar. I'm not exactly convinced that it really means anything. With how much scrutiny Netopolis had, I would think that scum would go out of their way to react to him.

What WERE you doing then?

Asking Haylen a question about why she didn't want us to force her to claim. I wasn't aware that it had rolefishing implications. Take it or leave it.

Are you aware that the answer to your question should be pretty obvious without asking it? Pushing the matter and questioning in this instance will only inevitably lead to more info being gained regarding her role.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, been busy at work during the week, and distracted by the playoffs yesterday.

I will look at the thread and try to post over lunch.

[Zachrulez]

I'm seeing SK as more likely scum than Bogre.

Bogre touched on it in post 1004, but it's the firmness in stances that is what separates the two players for me. Bogre's stancces have looked more firm to me, where as SK's movement from one vote to the next has looked a lot more to me like a scum who wants to keep his options open.

When you put SK's rolefishing on top of that. I really don't like the idea of SK getting away from the noose.

[Zachrulez]

That's interesting...

Tell me Haylen, did you vig glork too?

[Zachrulez]

...hey, Zach, what do you think about Hayl? Townie or scum?

Well, you did say that you could read Hayl well.

Apparently I'm not as good at reading her as I think.

She's scum.

Short version of the story because I'm busy at work at the moment. She's not lying about the fact that she killed Glork, I can verify that. But she is lying about targeting camn. Netopolis targeted Camn on night 1 and

no one else.

How do I know this?

I am a watcher

Vote: Haylen

Summary of my results, I targeted Camn on night 1, and Glork on night 2 and 3. No one visited Glork on night 2.

[Zachrulez]

Have you ever played a game where the scum have had a one shot vig power Yos?

[Zachrulez]

Have you ever played a game where the scum have had a one shot vig power Yos?

Hmm.

That's possible, I suppose; rare, but I've seen it. That's be pretty harsh in a game with a supersaint, though; town lynches the supersaint, scum can get 3 kills in a row.

Harsher than a vig that can kill multiple times?

I can't see scum with an extra kill using it to kill Gayle of all people, in any case; he was obviously going to get lynched if he didn't get vigged first.

That's nk speculation. I can think of at least a few reasons for scum to kill Gayle, but it's all WIFOM.

[Zachrulez]

Lol I figured out that Haylen was the vig on my way to the doctor's appointment.

Meanwhile,

Vote: Zach

for lying about his role.

@ Haylen: Why not kill Zach today instead?

She softclaimed vig... so what? That doesn't really mean anything.

[Zachrulez]

I think I'm going to wait and make sure everyone gets the chance to respond (just in case someone else is going to conterclaim vig, hah), and if no one does, or gives me a REALLY good reason why I shouldn't, I'm going to vote Zach.

Why do you think there's a chance that someone will counter Haylen's vig claim?

Why do you also seem to presume that no one will counter me?

It looks like you're coming from a position of knowledge to me.

[Zachrulez]

Have you ever played in a game where scum have intentionally given off pr vibes?

[Zachrulez]

Lol. I'm REALLY not comfortable with the weight of the game resting on my kill tonight. I'm not that good with kills, as you've already seen and I think I'd prefer it if we discussed amongst each other who I kill tonight and decide that way.

You don't need to be that good with kills after lynching me, because it won't matter who you kill, you'll have already had the game won.

[Zachrulez]

Wouldn't it be awesome if I turned out to be a supersaint as well?

I AM scum btw.

Booo town!

[Zachrulez]

[Zachrulez]

I was loving it when Yos was so certain that I claimed to save Maemuki.

Truth of it was I was hearing a lot of lynch Zach talk and felt like Haylen might vig me even if you guys lynched Mae, so I went into business to save myself... haha.

[Zachrulez]

By day 4 I had figured out that Haylen was probably the vig anyway... lol.

[Zachrulez]

Did you guys think the game was balanced?

I can't help but feel that we lucked out big with the way they prs ended up dying. Seems like a lot to dodge. I'm not sure how much my role balances that out...

Were the deadlines a little

too

quick?

The pace overwhelmed me, but I ran into some rl issues during it and would have otherwise been able to put more time into the game. We seemed to go into parts of the game where people seemed to play it like it had more normal deadlines. I actually like the idea of games with this pace because you don't have to commit months to a game.

Would you play in a game like this again in the future?

Definitely! Thanks for modding Incog!

[Zachrulez]

What luck that I happened to actually find the role blocker on day 1.

I was expecting to have a heck of a time figuring out how to submit the kill there.

[Zachrulez]

I think you actually worked pretty well as an honorary scum buddy Yos

[Zachrulez]

I have no problems posting the QT if my scum buddies don't object btw.

[Zachrulez]

Also I had to work at convincing Elli that we should kill Glork on night 3.

I actually wanted to kill him around night 2, but Elli said in QT that he didn't want to kill him. To this point, I still have no idea what he wanted to leave Glork alive, maybe he can share his thought process on that one.

As it was, Camn and KMD ended up being pretty good choices. (Though I wish I knew Haylen was gonna vig Camn... ^ _ ^)

[Zachrulez]

This proves the SaintKerrigan Axiom: If you go into Lylo and someone looks scummy, it's always the other person who's scum. Seriously, that's been true of every single game I went to Lylo in as town.

I was right that both of the scum were bussing Neto. Too bad I didn't take my own advice.

Incog, I would definitely play a game like this again. Be sure to let me know if you ever run it again, I want a pre-in.

In newbie 784, this actually wasn't true. The scummy person WAS scum... haha...

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, I wasn't sure if the exchange between Elli and Neto was genuine or not regarding Elli's play style, but I found him to be far more competent at mafia than he appears.

[Zachrulez]

I'm still embarrassed that we got off of

two

scum wagons to lynch a power role. Probably my worst moment since getting a claimed doc lynched.

I remember that one.

I regret nothing!