Newbie 893 - Newbieland! (GAME OVER)

[Pomegranate]

/confirm!

Hi all, I'm your friendly neighborhood IC, and I will do my best to explain relevant game theory and tactics when necessary. If you have any questions, then feel free to ask me!

Also,

@Reckoner- the Mafia Roleblocker's role PM says "You are a Mafia Goon".

[Pomegranate]

Generally at this point we go through RVS, which stands for Random Voting Stage to start discussion. I will Random

Vote: Rayfrost

.

[Pomegranate]

Well, I'll just get this out of the way right off the bat: I'm pro-town.

I'm going to

Vote: Pomegranate

to start off with, since, as she's the IC, I'll be able to glean what an appropriate response to being random-voted is.

We'll see about pro-town- if you scumhunt well, you will be considered pro-town.

There usually isn't a response to a RV. Usually RVS leads to serious gameplay when a bandwagon forms on one player. We analyze from there.

Mod, and everyone else: Every week I will be V/LA (Vacation/Limited Access) from Friday afternoon to Saturday evening.

I'm sorry for the inconvenience. I am V/LA in all my games at this time.

[Pomegranate]

I don't think Riza's second vote was scummy. I don't see a second vote as jumping on a real bandwagon.

RayFrost third vote on Hetemens was a bit suspicious. I think I'll keep my vote where it is.

[Pomegranate]

Then what's with this post?

Sensitive to a second vote (third vote = bandwagon, not any sooner)?

*speaks into combat radio* I think we've got scum here, requesting back up.

[Pomegranate]

Then what's with this post?

Sensitive to a second vote (third vote = bandwagon, not any sooner)?

*speaks into combat radio*

I think we've got scum here, requesting back up.

[Pomegranate]

He's at L-1, which means lynch-1, or 1 more vote to lynch. Someone should unvote, since we're only on page 2, and we're definitely not ready for a lynch.

[Pomegranate]

Wait, there was an unvote during my post.

[Pomegranate]

Also, I'm trying to figure out whether Pomegranate's misinterpretation of RayFrost's post was truly accidental or secretly purposeful. I thought it was very clear that RayFrost was talking about me being sensitive to a second post; he didn't seem to say bandwagoning was scummy, just that being defensive from a second vote was scummy.

In a game like this, where it only takes five to lynch, we need to be careful. Three votes means Hetemans was already at L-2. If, for example, none of the scum were on the wagon, then if the both placed their votes quickly, the could quicklynch him. Then we would go into night, without much info to go on tomorrow.

So yeah, we need to be careful.

[Pomegranate]

PPPP is appealing to fear.

Stupid, the scumteam must be, to lynch at l-2.

Scum doing so would lead to town win.

In fact, I'd

love it

if scum did that just once.

And town that did it would have to be retarded.

So yeh.

Obviously scum wouldn't do that. It'd be too obvious- we'd lynch them both on D2 and D3. But I'm pointing it out, since it

can

be more subtle than that, and since a lynch is closer than in 12 player games.

[Pomegranate]

No, it's not. Get with the program.

[Pomegranate]

At least we're clear on that.

[Pomegranate]

As long as your doing what I say, how about you stop with the capitals?

[Pomegranate]

Actually, I thought I wouldn't have to make the 'There is the same probability that I'm scum as anyone else ' speech, but apparently I do.

We all have the same chance of being scum, which is 2/9. So no one should assume that anyone is confirmed town, unless the potential cop says so.

[Pomegranate]

L-2 is lynch-2, or 2 more votes to lynch someone.

Example: Hetemens is at L-2. (Not anymore.)

[Pomegranate]

Pomegranate - What are the chances of a quicklynch occuring this early in the game? Would you be satisfied with a Frost lynch today?

The chances of a quicklynch happening right now is very low.

No, I don't think he's that scummy. He was pointing out that the chances of a quicklynch are low, which I agree with. I think it was worth pointing out.

But on that note,

Unvote

. I don't find him too scummy right now.

[Pomegranate]

My top suspect is me.

Well, no, my top suspect is really everyone else. Right now it seems like a personality war is going down. And a lot of flinging of the term 'scummy'. Thing is, this is my first time playing and I'm rather unsure of myself and how I should go about evaluating people. I find a lot of people suspicious, but as it stands, I don't really know how people behave when they're hiding their scumminess, so I'm taking a bit of 'they seem somewhat suspicious' with 'evaluating others' arguments' and 'stand back and watch'.

BTW, the 2/9 probability of scumminess for any individual is an incorrect statistic. The proper ratio is 17/72. Since the first choice of 1/9 is, well, one out of nine players can be the first scum. The second choice cannot be the first, so one out of the remaining eight can be the second scum. Thus, 1/9+1/8=17/72. This is a slightly higher ratio than 2/9 (0.236 versus 0.222). It doesn't change the fact that everyone is equally likely to be scum, but this is a very common error in calculating probability in discrete (countable) situations.

Sorry about the mathematics. I understand how the probability was incorrect, but the point still stands.

About scumhunting:

Scum are aiming to survive. That's all they care about. Therefore, they need to avoid being lynched, because that is the only way for us to kill them. So scum are trying not to get lynched.

Now imagine you're scum (unless you actually are, in which case it might be easier for you): To avoid being lynched, you need to stay under the radar. So you go with the flow. A bandwagon forms, so you jump on it. Because that's that the townies are doing. (Unless it's on your scumbuddy, which is a different discussion.) You pretend to scumhunt, but don't present anything original, for two reasons-

What if someone disagrees, a bandwagon forms and you get lynched?
Why actually scumhunt when you don't have to? Everyone else is trying to find scum, but you're not.

But you still need to go through the motions- ask questions, place votes, etc. Because otherwise you'll be lynched.

And that's the view that scum have of the game. So we, the town, look for signs of it- the scummy behavior. Lurking, which is not posting in the game for a large enough period of time (a few days) without mentioning it in-thread, is scummy. Active lurking is posting, but not anything of substance.

But townies lurk too. Sometimes it's hard to tell whether it's scum lurking, or a townie that's busy with his real life. So it's up to each townie to judge for himself who's scum, and who's not.

Of course, there are more things scum do, but I can't cover them all. Often in Newbie games, these are the most common.

Here is a list of scumtells. If you have questions on them, ask.

Appeal to authority - This is when a player who is more experienced than you suggests that it is more experienced than you.

Appeal to emotion - This is when a player provides a (usually unsolicited) reason that it might be town.

Buddying - This is when someone defends a player that you think you have a pretty good case on.

Chainsaw defense - This is like buddying, but the guy you're attacking is still scum. Seriously, people, even the guy who published this tell admits that it doesn't work when both players are still alive.

Defending known scum - A strong tell. Much more reliable than distancing from or ignoring known scum, but a combination spread throughout the game is even better.

Defensiveness - This is when a player defends itself.

Deliberately acting scummy - This is when a person admits to doing something that you believe to be a scumtell.

Distancing from known scum - A strong tell. Much more reliable than defending or ignoring known scum, but a combination spread throughout the game is even better.

Hypocrisy - This is when someone is on a bad wagon, but then the next day acts like people on that wagon are more likely to be scum.

Ignoring known scum - A strong tell. Much more reliable than defending or distancing from known scum, but a combination spread throughout the game is even better.

Knowing too much - See buddying. Only scum could know that the person you are attacking is really town.

Leading the town - This is when people keep nodding along to what a player says, but you can't logically disagree with it either.

Lying - If someone is caught giving two different excuses for a behavior in two different posts, it must be policy lynched on sight regardless of anything else it has done.

Rushing the day - This is when someone tries to achieve a lynch.

Selective scumhunting - This is the exact same thing as tunnelvision, but tunnelvision refers to stupid townies. Selective scumhunting, on the other hand, is a scumtell.

Setting up mislynches - This is when someone is suspicious of multiple players at the same time.

Unexplained voting - This is when a player explains its vote in a separate post, or votes right below a supposedly scummy post its target made.

Useless to us now - This is when a player has been outed as a power role. If it's telling the truth, scum will just nightkill it anyway.

Vote-hopping - This is when someone moves its vote.

WIFOM - Your case might be right, so someone bringing up alternate explanations counts as this.

[Pomegranate]

Yes. If I can find the thread, I'll post a link to it.

[Pomegranate]

That means I credited it to the wrong person- Xyl, though it should've been Ether.

Thanks for getting the link, RF!

[Pomegranate]

I don't think Pom seems scummy at all. She seems to be taking the first day lynch slowly, not wanting to quicklynch, but I think that most scum would want to vote quickly. I'm sorry if that didn't come out too right, haha.

Just pointing out, this

is

extremely early for a lynch. But I do agree that dragging out the day muddies the info we have, and all the scummy behavior gets swallowed up into the discussion.

This:

Getting information is crucial but if you drag out the day unnecessarily it can often kill both activity and interest which is oftentimes a far worse scenario for town.

I figured it was some sort of SEvsIC power struggle

I didn't see it as such, and certainly hope it wasn't. I'm not that petty.

Pom, page five into the game and I have seen no scum hunting from you. What say you to this, particularly after your scumtell post?

What say I? Scumhunt!

I also noticed Pomegranate and RayFrost have been posting a lot about scumtells and what the general rules are to finding scum. Some earlier things that RayFrost posted about "scum do this, not this" seem like they might not be universally true, which kind of makes me doubt the way he's "training" us newbs. It'd be very easy for a more experienced player to mislead us like that. Both he and Pomegranate are in a good position to cover up their scumminess because A) Explaining rules to newbs is a very easy way to buddy up, B) They know the scumtells so well that they likely wouldn't commit them and might be actively trying to do the opposite, C) The sheer act of posting common scumtells and explaining the game gives them an easy source of material to post and "spam" the thread with, making them seem active and helpful even though they are just quoting other sources, which is very simple to do.

Yes, in theory I could mislead, and I can see how it could be hard to trust me sometimes. Trusting me without thinking about whether I was scum would be, shall I say, dumb. Every player is a suspect until he/she is dead and has flipped, or is (if there is a cop,) cop confirmed.

If you want an emotional read, you already hit the nail on the head -- I hide behind my brain to protect myself. Doesn't matter if it's this game or another or (especially) in person, that's my defense re: social anxiety (it doesn't help that this term is full of very heavy classes). If you feel this is indicative of scum, not much I can do about that. I'd hate to be lynched, no matter who I'm playing.

ThetaSigma, this is a problem. Mafia isn't an equation, and scumhunting isn't done by following specific steps. There is intuition involved, and people should pay attention to their gut vibes. You need to analyze things the way you see them. Try. If you really can't do, then replace out, but I'm sure you can find your own playstyle. (Whoa, that sounded cliche at the end there.)

...On the other hand, he could just be a dick. Who knows.

I think it's just his personality, for now. I've played a few games with RayFrost before, and he has a somewhat sarcastic personality. If he's continually aggressive though, don't think I'll ignore him.

In the end, the chances of any of us being scum are the same. Hence, you need to learn to distinguish from actual game play and game mechanics.

So you're saying the difference between newbs and experienced players is totally negligible in a game where one of the only certainties is that there are newbs and experienced players? I definitely disagree. Unless there is some kind of rule that forbids SEs and ICs from using our inexperience to their advantage, we should definitely consider how an experienced player will act differently in a game with 2/3 newbs compared to a game with no newbs. SE and IC are indeed roles, though not in the same sense as mafia and townie, that are included in this F11 setup with a specific aim of getting the games on-track and being able to answer questions and lead by example. Being a newb, I'm not burdened by any of that. In the end, I don't know what the distinction means or if it guarantees any specific ways the players will act in response to the disparity in experience, but it's something to consider when you weigh the options concerning WIFOM or anything else.

You're right, you do have to take into account that though SEs and ICs are here to help, we're also playing to our win condition.

1. Scum wish to avoid negative attention (newb-scum may extend this to -all- attention)

I took a look back in the thread and this post made me think. Ray is probably giving many players in this game a negative image of himself. He's been aggressive, accusatory, and whatnot, making people think he is scum. But since scum "wish to avoid attention", maybe he's doing on purpose to prove that he's not scummy at all. Then again, he could be going for "all attention", but I doubt that's true.

This is an example of WIFOM.

"He's attracting a lot of attention to himslf therefore he's probably not scum... but maybe he's just doing it to make us think he's not scum...."

Also, it didn't seem to me like he was trying to attract a lot of negative attention. Attention isn't always something scum want to avoid. Basically: Use your judgement regarding context.

Also, this is a good example of the way that different people have different sorts of playstyles, also referred to as meta. For some people, being aggressive is a scumtell, while for others it's not.

--

JarcLovesCinn seems a little indecisive, but I'm like that too sometimes.

ThetaSigma needs to stop using his brain as a shield.

For now-

Vote: ThetaSigma

. I'm waiting for you to think.

[Pomegranate]

ThetaSigma needs to stop using his brain as a shield.

How is this scummy exactly?

Stating theories is scumhunting. It's not all brain work.

Could I get a clear concise case on me rather than "She seems scummier than Ray", or "She's not doing anything"? I don't know RayFrost's alignment, but it seems to be a false dichotomy.

An example:

Pom and Frost seem to be clashing rather than hunting the Mafia. Frost seems to be of more assistance than Pom, so I

Unvote, Vote Pomegrante

This is extremely scummy, as Chau already pointed out. One sentence of reasoning to put me at L-1. Especially when you realize that scum probably want me dead- I'm sure that one of the scumbags is on my wagon, if not both. And I think Vap is one of them.

Unvote; Vote: Vaporeonage

.

My claim is Vanilla Townie.

Often I am bandwagonned early(ish) in D1 (Day One). I usually find them somewhat helpful to my scumhunting- sometimes it's easier to get a read on someone when he/she attacks you. If you would like references, I will see if I have some that aren't ongoing.

arcLovesCinn seems a little indecisive, but I'm like that too sometimes.

I am, but you should be happy about that now that you're L-1, had I made up my mind on page 3/4 it might be nighttime right now.

I don't get this. Could you please explain it?

(If what it means is that you feel ready for a lynch, and to go into night: You really feel that there is enough information to lynch a scumbag tomorrow?

FoS: JLC

.)

[Pomegranate]

I am, but you should be happy about that now that you're L-1, had I made up my mind on page 3/4 it might be nighttime right now.

I don't get this. Could you please explain it?

(If what it means is that you feel ready for a lynch, and to go into night: You really feel that there is enough information to lynch a scumbag tomorrow?

FoS: JLC

.)

I meant that if I wern't indecisive, as you said I was, I probably would have casted my vote for you page 5, where I stated that I was suspicious of yourself, Frost and Theta.
So it's the exact opposite ; I'm not ready to lynch. Also note that I said that thinking that you were already L-1, but you are now so I guess the rest of my comment is still valid.

I don't enjoy the FoS out of a misunderstanding that you didn't get an explination for yet.

The FoS was in parentheses for a reason.

[Pomegranate]

Ah, brilliant, thanks. That's one of the things I couldn't really get a grasp on reading previous games. So as vanilla townie, we should be thinking "This is a risk we can be somewhat comfortable taking"? Also, what if the person is a doctor? Would they honestly claim that, or would they say they are a townie just to avoid being made a mafia target?

Another thing, claiming vanilla townie could be a safety move because we know there will be no counter-claims, right?

Usually, when someone claim VT, he/she is lynched. That's one reason why a doc wouldn't claim VT to avoid being lynched. Another is later in the game, if someone backtracks on a claim, saying that though he backtracked on a claim earlier, that he was actually a doc, not a VT, he might be lynched for lying, unless it's proven that he's telling the truth.

Stating theories is scumhunting. It's not all brain work.

I don't quite understand what you were trying to say here in terms of quoting me. Can you explain a bit more?

Could I get a clear concise case on me rather than "She seems scummier than Ray", or "She's not doing anything"? I don't know RayFrost's alignment, but it seems to be a false dichotomy.

Not sure about others but my case was mainly because you did little to no scum hunting despite all your talk about it. Most of your posts were about game mechanics versus the actual game itself. And your answer to my question was a little too casual (seemed as if you were trying to fly under the radar). Also, I wanted to evaluate the bandwagon as well.

Well, I think Theta has done a bit more scumhunting since, but I meant that the game of Mafia can't be boiled down to a math equation, and that usually there is a sense of gut in scumhunting.

I see. Also, the reason I answered like that was because I hate it when players make ling, winded promises to scumhunt, and analyze every single sentance of every single player, and never do. That's why I gave a simple answer, to show that I was simply going to try my best to scumhunt. I think that also answers this post:

Of course, saying "Scumhunt away!" or whatever she said was an obnoxiously anti-town sentiment, as well (too obnoxious for a mafia to say it? I'm not convinced yet).

Reading her posts again, this seemed mighty suspicious sounding:

So

we, the town

, look for signs of it- the scummy behavior.

Why do you have to flavor your explanations, which should be unbiased, with buddying? You also refer to the mafia in the second-person throughout the whole post: a distancing tactic. In my opinion, it seems like you're trying a bit too hard with your presentation. You also posted a list of scumtells with sarcastic explanations, which helps us none. I think RayFrost was the victim of massive doses of unnoticed sarcasm in that thread, which could explain why he somewhat agreed with it being posted here, haha.

I've seen this argument many times, and it is worthless. I'm sure that had I just written "we" I would have been accused of the same thing, while if I had used the term "the town", I would have been accused of making a Freudian slip by referring to the town as a group separate from my own (by seemingly not including myself in the town). It's a no-win situation, and the argument holds no water, in my opinion.

[Pomegranate]

Well, I think Theta has done a bit more scumhunting since, but I meant that the game of Mafia can't be boiled down to a math equation, and that usually there is a sense of gut in scumhunting.

Yes but my question was why is this scummy?

Fair enough about the short answer. But my point about you not scum hunting still stands.

Who's your top two suspects right now pom?

Well, it's scummy to use the fact that it's hard for you to scumhunt as an excuse, which he(/she) seemed to be doing.

Vapor and JLC. Hetemens is probably next, but I can't tell if he's lurking newbie scum, or lurking newbie town.

[Pomegranate]

Well, it's scummy to use the fact that it's hard for you to scumhunt as an excuse, which he(/she) seemed to be doing.

My excuse wasn't that I find it hard to scumhunt. Rather, I wasn't even trying to make excuses. I merely stated that I prefer to analyze facts than to make wild stabs in the dark and hope that I guess correctly. Even more improperly, you voted this after quoting my explanation that I am -shy- and don't let my emotions out all that well -- this has nothing to do with scumhunting.

By the way, I'm still using mass amounts of analysis, not guesswork, and you seem to think my analytical method is satisfactory. If you want to fault me for being a shy noob, knock yourself out. I'll 'improve' in your definition of 'theory' (generally defined as 'educated conjecture', which you have already misdefined as 'gut feeling', which is more of a hunch than a theory -- check your vocabulary or I will pick it to pieces) as I become more comfortable with the game in general.

The vote on you came after your "I'm hiding behind my brain" post. I have unvoted since, and even said that I found your scumhunting to be fine IMO. The quote you took was a bit out of context- I only posted that recently because chauchau asked me about my previous vote.

[Pomegranate]

Contrast this post with this other post, which are directly after each other. This is the backtracking I was speaking about.

Says one opinion but quickly changes from it to another opinion

based off the same post

.

This is fencesitting in regards to me

Is backtracking considered scummy? I'm not being defensive, this is just a newbie question.
About 2 pages had passed between those posts. And in those pages, it was the discussion/argument between you and Pom and then Theta. That was when, to me, you showed your aggressiveness. When I made my unvote, I read what happened, and at that point in the game, I assumed your aggressiveness was scummy, and I had my suspicions on you. That is, until others started discussing the possible reason that you are just naturally aggressive. That's why I was sitting on the fence. Which brings me to another newbie question. Is fencesitting considered scummy as well? XD;;

Also, I unvoted based on this. And other posts Abel made after that, really did clear my suspicion on him.
I also don't see what's wrong with agreeing with others. When people make a good point, I agree. That is how I am IRL, too. I agree a lot. It may not be the best trait in the world but that's how I am.

And Vapor, I can say the same thing about you. You have just about the same amount of posts as me. You've been changing your vote all around the place and you don't even have defense for yourself when already 3 people have voted for you.

Backtracking is generally considered scummy, as well as fencesitting.

But I think your explanation makes sense, and I don't find you scummy. I think what you brought up about Vapor is true- he's also made very few posts, and they've been considerably worse. In his most recent post, all he did was slap a vote on you, Riza, with one sentence attached. If he's been reading the thread, he should know that a few people want an explanation out of him. The fact that he ignored it is scummy. My vote is staying.

[Pomegranate]

On the other hand, VI = vapor, which is my current belief.

He' be a lynch I'd be fine with, but I'd prefer a lynch elsewhere, savvy?

He doesn't seen to fit my view of a village idiot.

I'd prefer a lynch on Vapor.

[Pomegranate]

If you voted for Vaporeonage, can you give me a

concise

explanation of your vote?

Anyone who didn't vote for him, can you give me your concise view on why others have voted for him and why you think they are wrong?

I know I could go back and read, but I often feel like my interpretations get muddled by the distance between posts and all the reasoning that goes on between them, and I hope this can generate some discussion about our L-2, here.

So far this game, Vapor has made eight posts. A look at each one:

Post 1: Confirm and Random Vote.

Post 2: A confusing vote on RF-

Anyone says anything about him they're immediately scum, I think Ray is a little scummy

Post 3: Why bandwagons are good.

Post 4: A small defense from RF, about how his vote made very little sense, and had no reasoning attached.

Appearances can be deceived, Frost. Remember that.

Post 5: A sarcastic post.

Post 6: One sentence about RF and me, and a vote on me, which places me at L-1. I would think a post putting me at L-1, with a possibility oon being hammered at any time, would have more than one vague sentence of explanation. One sentence about lurkers (Ouch, hypocrisy!). A question to Hetemens that (not Vap's fault) is never answered.

Post 7: No explanation for his vote on me, which a few people asked for. But he must have seen it, because he unvoted, and said that he was unsure of where to look next.

Post 8: Vapor ignores the increasing number of people who want an explantion from him. All we get is a one liner, in which he votes for Riza, stating that she is lurking, or possibly has just been inactive (while Vapor has made fewer posts than the player he is accusing of lurking).

If there is any more explanation necessary for my vote, please ask. I find it pretty clear.

[Pomegranate]

I just made long post in response to Honest Abel, as well as some other things (took me about 40 minutes), after I got home from staying late at school. The tab was closed by accident when I was referencing VI in the wiki. Hopefully I will have a chance to redo it later tonight- I don't have the fortitude right now.

[Pomegranate]

I just made long post in response to Honest Abel, as well as some other things (took me about 40 minutes), after I got home from staying late at school. The tab was closed by accident when I was referencing VI in the wiki. Hopefully I will have a chance to redo it later tonight- I don't have the fortitude right now.

I'm sorry, I'm wiped, and probably won't get to it until tomorrow. I've been on MS for an hour and a half- about half of it writing the post that wasn't, the other writing a post for a game with four new pages today. Expect it tomorrow. I'm sorry.

[Pomegranate]

Starting this post for the third time...

All right, looking at Vaporeon's posts, I can see why some people have chosen to vote for him/her. I, however, do not find his posts representative of scummy behavior; unhelpful, sure, but his confusion seldom struck me as scummy. I think there is much more sinister behavior afoot and focusing on an inexperienced player's tribulations as if they were scummy seems plenty sinister to me.

But I think that the lack of scumhunting

is

scummy. I'm not ruling out the possibility of Vapor just being a VI, but I think that since scum have very little motivation to actually scumhunt, then the fact that he's not scumhunting is scummy.

If you were scum, why would you scumhunt more than you had to?

Pom, I don't believe his/her vote on RayFrost was confusing at all; he mentioned that RayFrost attacks anyone who suspects him. I can't personally agree with this since I don't think RayFrost has done this in every case and because he's certainly attacked more people than have suspected him. However, I think Vaporeon picked up on RayFrost's unconcentrated attacks and a bit of defensiveness and decided to cast a vote his way. I don't think that's scummy.

I see. I just couldn't tell his reasoning from his post, which had little punctuation or grammar:

Unvote, Vote RayFrost Anyone says anything about him they're immediately scum, I think Ray is a little scummy

I also think, Pom, that you and others may be reading a little too much into Vaporeon's L-1 vote. I hadn't been keeping track of the votes up to that point and I wouldn't have realized you were at L-1 if not for chau's following post and the fuss that ensued. My guess is that Vaporeon didn't realize he/she would be placing you a vote away from lynch or that doing so would cause such a ruckus.

I did notice, though, how quick you were to OMGUS-vote Vaporeon back.

Covered by a seemingly good amount of reason

, sure, but please don't try to tell us that you would have voted for Vaporeon at that point anyway if he/she hadn't voted for you.

No, I wouldn't have voted for Vapor if not for the L-1 vote. But I would have voted him if it was on another wagon that formed as quickly as the one did on me (also, see the following paragraph). I find that I can find a lot of information from wagons on me. Often I'm wagonned D1, and sometimes it helps me see things in a different light.

After seeing Vapor's L-1, I realized that I didn't remember much at all about him. So I checked back on him posts, and found them contradictory: In his iso, posts 1-4 seem to show that he is a bit suspicious of RF. But after a wagon forms on me, he sides with RF in his iso post 5. In iso 7 he follows RF by voting Riza.

Also, I don't like the way you throw around the term OMGUS. I didn't OMGUS-vote him. According to the wiki:

OMGUS stands for "Oh My God, You Suck (for voting for me)!". It is sometimes used as a shorthand to indicate that you are voting for someone primarily because they voted for you.

But even according to what you said yourself, in the bolded (though I do not think that the wording you used was good,) I used reasoning. I didn't vote Vapor because he voted

me

, but because he placed the L-1 vote so quickly.

I also find your lengthy and detailed (and colored?) summary of your target's posts at my humble request another link in your suspicious chain of actions. Too often I find you trying to placate others as you have attempted to placate me here so completely: I asked for a concise statement of your personal feelings, and you gave me a comprehensive list of Vapor's posts. I just don't find the arguments founded enough to consider it an attempt to help the town; it seems you are merely trying to help me as you have tried to help so many others without hunting or

saying too much to offend anyone who could possibly defend his or her actions.

Again, I leave my vote on you, Pom.

So by answering your question (albeit in a somewhat lengthy way), I'm suspicious. So the fact that I answered you, as opposed to say, JLC, makes me scummier than him?

About the bolded: I wouldn't "offend" (I don't see why stating that you find someone scummy is offensive) anyone who could reasonably defend him/herself, if I understood the defense, and agreed with it, because that would mean that I understood why whoever it was did whatever it was.

--

Why don't you answer your own question?

Most of Vaporeon's posts slipped under my nose because of how short they were, so I never really paid much attention to them. Then I noticed he/she was L-2, so my first response was to ask everyone "Why?" because it was quicker than re-reading the whole day in light of Vaporeon's contributions. Then I went to NYC for a couple days, which I probably should have mentioned beforehand. I found some of the responses quite helpful (obviously not yours, since you completely avoided the question) and found some faults with others (sorry, Pom, I think I disagree on some of your points) and I will explain my thoughts on Vaporeon and the responses I got as soon as I go over his/her posts myself, which should happen before the end of the night.

My reason for not voting is due to the fact every [pokemon]age I've played with has been fail in epic proportions.

They are a bunch of VIs, which makes it hard as fook to read them.

Thus, I've chalked vap to VI, not scum, ftm.

Yes, I could see Vapor as VI, but I see him more as scum.

About the bolded: Do you think the fact that he is (or seems to be) a VI, and is therefore hard to read, means that he's not scum?

Don't scum want to be a bit hard to read?

--

This is why I think Vapor is village idiot and not scum.

But why can't a VI be scum? (I've seen a lynch put off because 'he's not scum, just a VI'.) I don't see why that have to be mutually exclusive.

--

I don't find Riza scummy for the whole emoticon thing, but slightly scummy for other reasons.

[Pomegranate]

He hasn't posted since Saturday. I see he's been prodded.

RF: But I've seen those VIs, who everyone thought would be a mislynch, turn out to be scum. Once he posts again, I'll take another look.

[Pomegranate]

If you were scum, why would you scumhunt more than

you had to

?

To mislead people by thinking you are helping town; to cast suspicion onto Townies. If I were scum, I'm pretty sure I'd scumhunt just like I am now since it seems like you can almost always make a case that anyone is scum based on anything they say. Or maybe it just seems that way in this game because we don't really have a clear scum candidate and our vote is currently divided between four players. This is something that more experience will help me to determine, but for now I'm just going to assume that scum are indeed scummy and will go to lengths to appear helpful, and won't just outright show us that they are scum.

So you wouldn't scumhunt more than you'd have to (basically to convince everyone that you're town).

Also, if you were scum you probably wouldn't play the same way as you are now (assuming you're town). The psychology is what throws people off- once you

know

that you're scum, you'll likely have a change in playstyle (meta).

Often I'm wagonned D1

And you think it's generally because you're a big help to the town and the scum want to kill you, or are you always this placid and refuse to scumhunt? Saying "this guy who might be VI might also be scum, so LYNCH" isn't really scumhunting. You haven't really provoked any information from Vaporeon, you just noticed a little trend (a realization that was provoked by a vote against you) and voted back against him, which is how I see it and why I used the

sacred

term OMGUS.

I'm not sure why I'm wagonned D1- I've been told I'm an easy target.

Don't mistake me, I will switch my vote before deadline if Vapor doesn't show up, or if he does but ignores me entirely. Maybe he will be replaced.

Okay, but you still used the term OMGUS incorrectly.

But even according to what you said yourself, in the bolded (though I do not think that the wording you used was good,) I used reasoning. I didn't vote Vapor because he voted

me

, but because he placed the L-1 vote so quickly.

I thought your reasoning

appeared

sufficient, but most of it can be explained by Vapor being VI instead of how you painted it: as Vapor definitely being scummy.

So by answering your question (albeit in a somewhat lengthy way), I'm suspicious. So the fact that I answered you, as opposed to say, JLC, makes me scummier than him?

No, it makes you more active than JLC. It's really the way that you went to such lengths to answer a question that wasn't primarily directed at you, which seemed to be just because I had my vote on you at the time and you were trying to placate me.

I don't see why stating that you find someone scummy is offensive

Simply because it's the opposite of defensive.

But why can't a VI be scum? (I've seen a lynch put off because 'he's not scum, just a VI'.) I don't see why that have to be mutually exclusive.

They don't, but I generally get a feeling that people are considered innocent until proven otherwise. That's the whole point of scumhunting. You don't just assume they are scum because they could be. You're still not saying

why

you think his behavior was scummy and not just VI, you're just saying that you think there's an equal chance and decided to land on the scummy side.

See above.

The reason I find Riza a bit scummy is because of hypocrisy. She jumped on my wagon and right before Vaporeonage without much reasoning. But later, she says that she finds Vapor very scummy, even though what he did was very similar to her own actions. She seems to be grasping for straws.

(Yes, I'm pretty sure that this was already pointed out.)

Actually,

Vote: Riza

. (I bet HA is going to say that I'm just placating him. Oh well, there's nothing I can do. )

[Pomegranate]

-MME

I feel that the fact that I acknowledged the reasons you gave as to why you didn't like my case before you stated them, and I voted Riza. I like your play.

-Nikanor

Could you actually do something useful?

[Pomegranate]

I'll be your friend! Do you like skipping? [/highpitchedvoice]

[Pomegranate]

^^ Yes, this. If you can't skip, at least you can read.

[Pomegranate]

^^ Yes, this. If you can't skip, at least you can read.

Clearly, my friendship is worthless to you.


That said, I don't agree with the case on Riza. Gonna keep my vote right where it us.

That means we're not friends?



Why don't you agree with the case?

[Pomegranate]

Why don't you agree with the case?

Rather than reading a case scattered across several posts, I just iso'd Riza, and I didn't find her particularly scummy.

But her timing is the key to her scumminess. For the sake of your laziness (come one, it's only 13 pages!), I'll quote the bits of case that are scattered. Inside the brackets is my own current explanation.

The reason I find Riza a bit scummy is because of hypocrisy. She jumped on my wagon and right before Vaporeonage without much reasoning. But later, she says that she finds Vapor very scummy, even though what he did was very similar to her own actions. She seems to be grasping for straws.

(Yes, I'm pretty sure that this was already pointed out.)

Actually,

Vote: Riza

.

- Riza contradicts herself about her random vote. It wasn't random at all, she was looking to bandwagon from the getgo.

- Riza is backtracking (#108) & Pome =/= scum (déja vu with TS on page 3)

- Riza in #121 : WIFOM and "I'd vote RF, but others won't, so I'm not voting him" (paraphrased)

The following is in chronological order!
- Pome votes Vap and FOSses Jarc
- Riza: "perhaps hetemens is scum" (paraphrased), which is a blatant lurker attack
- Jarc FoSses Vap
- Riza FoSses Vap

The odd thing about the fos from Riza is that she is just being a sheep again (cf. her RF opinion on the previous day), the obvious question is: why didn't she fos in her first post after Vap put pome at L-1? Why did she wait until Jarc fossed? I say it's trying to go with the flow.

I'm rereading the final pages, going to answer some posts directed at Vap/me:

>> Riza's

Cr

Vap Case

The explanation below will be a sum up of other posts I've made about Vapor.

Like I said, Vapor keeps on voting/unvoting for people with little to no reasoning. It's suspicious.

Is it really? And you're absolutely sure it doesn't fit in with him being a VI?

When he first voted for Pom, he said it was because Frost was of more assistance. Both he and Frost posted little between his vote for Pom and Frost. Therefore, I don't understand how Vapor thinks Frost was of more assistance.

Because Frost was, reread the thread, please. For real. And rewrite this quote, I can't understand it properly.

Wow, that sounds pretty muddled to me. Sorry. e_e Anyway, that's pretty much what lead me to vote for him.

Are you sure you're not forgetting to lie? The only reasons I see for your vote on Vap are:
1) he's an incredibly easy target (you explain this yourself later on)
2) others were already dogpiling onto him, I'm still in doubt about your FoS on Vap after Jarc did so (cf. previous big post)

But what makes me keep my vote is because he unvotes a post later, maybe because he caught quite a bit of negative attention?

Newbie player. VI. Make your pick. Seriously.

And then votes for me, for a bad reason, which can be directed toward him as well.

Bad play does not make a scum. But carry on.

He doesn't even defend himself, even when he's in L-2.

And this is indicative of any alignment in what way? If you're serious about this and I know you're not (you're only dogpiling and finding easy targets), explain it.

Page 8

- not much here lol, don't like Riza's attack on vap, it's really inane.

Page 9

- Riza builds crap case and builds up scumminess. Eggs on Vap and tries not to appear doing so (#213)
- TS excludes Riza from his mini-LoS (Line of Sight)

Page 10

- Riza's #238 contradicts itself, "Vap is newbie scum acting to be a VI". I don't think newbie scum is capable of doing that on purpose.

Page 11

- Pome Votes Riza for good reasons

My conclusions

Riza is scum.
TS is most likely scum.

--

Why is Riza a better lynch than Pom?

What, did you not have time to read the past few pages about Riza, but you had time to compose a case on me? Or are you jumping on the "backup" bandwagon on me?

[Pomegranate]

[Riza Case]

I actually looked it over before my last post. I don't think she is more worthy of a lynch than you, and I don't find many of those points to be scum tells.

For instance:
-I couldn't care less about her 'hypocrisy'
-I don't think she contradicted herself after her random vote.
-I don't find wifom in a newbie game particularly scummy
-I don't mind that she pointed out a lurker

In essence, I love Riza and forgive her for any mistake she may make.

I know that it saddens MME when people don't agree with him, but that is how life is sometimes.

Despite what you two seem to think, I actually did read the entire thread. I still think you are the better lynch.

Buddying much? (The bolded seems to show that whatever Riza does, you'll forgive her, no matter what.)

Could you explain why you think I'm a better lynch?

[Pomegranate]

I'm just trying to show you that you can't turn a blind eye on everything she's done, and will do. It doesn't work.

Also this:

Could you explain why you think I'm a better lynch?

[Pomegranate]

I'm just trying to show you that you can't turn a blind eye on everything she's done, and will do. It doesn't work.

Because when one player claims to love another and will therefore forgive everything they do, that claim should be taken seriously.

There has been no night yet, so I can't keep in mind the theory that you're a cop with an innocent.

FoS: Gayle

. Come on, things can't be so obvious, can they? I'm trying to rationalize an alternative.

(But I'm having trouble.)

[Pomegranate]

I'm just trying to show you that you can't turn a blind eye on everything she's done, and will do. It doesn't work.

Because when one player claims to love another and will therefore forgive everything they do, that claim should be taken seriously.

There has been no night yet, so I can't keep in mind the theory that you're a cop with an innocent.

FoS: Gayle

. Come on, things can't be so obvious, can they? I'm trying to rationalize an alternative.

(But I'm having trouble.)

I'm having trouble understanding what you mean here. Can you reword it or something?

It's impossible that you're a cop who has already gotten an innocent on Riza. I can't think of any other reason why you'd be so sure that Riza is town. (Unless the bolded sentence is meant to be read sarcastically- forgive me if it was, I sometimes find it hard to figure out what's sarcasm over the internet.)

[Pomegranate]

Okay, great. Now back to business.

Could you explain why you think I'm a better lynch?

(This whole back-and-forth is great for my PPD, by the way.)

[Pomegranate]

This is extremely scummy, as Chau already pointed out. One sentence of reasoning to put me at L-1. Especially when you realize that scum probably want me dead- I'm sure that one of the scumbags is on my wagon, if not both. And I think Vap is one of them.

Why would scum want you dead at this point? You're not even scumhunting.

My claim is Vanilla Townie.

Your claim or your role? Hmmmmm?

I'm still not caught up. I'm a really, really slow reader. Sorry.

Are you?

(Anyway, newbie scum just want to lynch town so that they can kill.)

Both.

[Pomegranate]

Also, I don't have to refute your case. I am not a defense lawyer. I only have to say why I'm not on board.

I actually agree with this. It's Riza's job to defend herself.

[Pomegranate]

Because she's the scummiest. See post 304. (Now if she would only stop lurking once there was a wagon on her...)

@Gayle: You said that you read the entire thread. Who is/are your top scum pick(s)?

[Pomegranate]

Because she's the scummiest. See post 304. (Now if she would only stop lurking once there was a wagon on her...)

I believe that's MME's case, not yours.

The question was why I think she's the best lynch for the day. That post explains why I think she's the best lynch for the day.

Plus, you never answered my questions:

pom wrote:
Don't mistake me, I will switch my vote before deadline if Vapor doesn't show up, or if he does but ignores me entirely


Why would you switch your vote if he ignored you? If he avoids answering your questions shouldn't that make him more suspicious?

Quote:
The reason I find Riza a bit scummy is because of hypocrisy. She jumped on my wagon and right before Vaporeonage without much reasoning. But later, she says that she finds Vapor very scummy, even though what he did was very similar to her own actions. She seems to be grasping for straws.


Why did you not question Riza about it before? And why did you wait until now to change your vote to Riza.

1. Well, if he kept lurking, it would mean that had probably flaked. And if he totally ignored it, it would be scummy in a VI-mistake type of way. If he answered it poorly, then I would've kept my vote on him.
2. Because I only looked back/realized it at that point.

Because she's the scummiest. See post 304. (Now if she would only stop lurking once there was a wagon on her...)

Now would you have accepted it if I'd answered your question with 'Because Pom is the scummiest. See someone else's case for details'? I want to know why

you

think she is the best possible lynch. Tell me, are you gonna have Milk carry you on day 2 as well?

Well, I don't know who's case you would have referred to. I don't think that there's a clear case laid out on me other than 'She's not scumhunting. We should lynch her.'

The reason that I referred you to 304 is because it contains the reasoning that I follow. I don't see why I should type it out; it's the same reasoning MME is following.

The biggest and most obvious reason is that you have not done even an ounce of scum hunting the entire game. No, discussing theory is not scum hunting. You vote TS for some odd reason. When you are put at L-1, you switch your vote to the easy lynch in Vaporeonage. You then jump on the Riza bandwagon and call her a hypocrite. I don't think you've played any better than Riza. What reason makes her a hypocrite that doesn't also apply to you?

Why was my vote on TS odd at that point?
No, I switched for pressure. He ignores me. I think he is scum. Then he stops posting, and looks like a VI. I admit that it looks bad, but, yeah, that's how it went.
Why am I a hypocrite?

[Pomegranate]

@POM: So you plan to end the day without doing any scum hunting for yourself at all?

Why am I a hypocrite?

Your reason for calling Riza a hypocrite is as follows

The reason I find Riza a bit scummy is because of hypocrisy. She jumped on my wagon and right before Vaporeonage without much reasoning. But later, she says that she finds Vapor very scummy, even though what he did was very similar to her own actions. She seems to be grasping for straws.

Essentially, Riza is a hypocrite because she jumped on your wagon with little reasoning and then called Vaporeonage for doing the same thing. I would accuse you of also

jumping from wagon to wagon

with little reasoning, and then calling Riza out for similar behavior. If Riza is a hypocrite, then so are you.

I think I've done scumhunting. I'm sorry you don't.

What's the bolded? I started the Vapor wagon, and the only wagon that I jumped on was Riza's, and regarding that I felt that I had sufficient information.

[Pomegranate]

If I'm not mistaken RF, you were already voting Riza.

[Pomegranate]

If I'm not mistaken RF, you were already voting Riza.

[Pomegranate]

No MME, I mean the one with startrans and tubby and Porkchop and Pads and all those good folks. The one where I was scum and you were town.

Did you (active) lurk in that game too?

[Pomegranate]

As long as we get the hammer, we're golden. I don't think that anything will change, but as long as chau hammers, we're good.

[Pomegranate]

Now Gayle is playing the "toldja so!" card. To me she looks like scum who

knew

that Riza was town- especially because she refused to explain why she didn't like the Riza case, only saying that it was scummy, and the wagon was scummy, and that she didn't like it. If she was town, why wouldn't she say why she didn't like it? A townie would have the reason to refute a wagon he didn't like, but scum would have the motivation to stay off it, and just repeat that the wagon was scummy, with no real explanation.

Now, I see that it's likely enough that I will be lynched today. Please don't- with another mislynch we will be in Lylo.

(Something to wonder about the NK is why the scum chose to kill the remaining newbie, and not go for a more experienced player. But I guess it's just WIFOM.)

[Pomegranate]

lol, are you really calling a justified wagon the most scummy wagon of all time? I'm wondering if Riza flipped town if you would call it the best wagon of all time or say that all 5 of us were bussing.

It was not justified in the least.

Well, saying that it wasn't justified, and explaining

why

it wasn't justified are two different things entirely.

[Pomegranate]

At least if I'm lynched, everyone will realize that Gayle is scum, and lynch her tomorrow during Lylo.

[Pomegranate]

Pom, surely you are going to present evidence as to your suspicions of me? Or are you going to have MME build that case for you? Because right now your case seems to be "Gayle is scum for attacking me.". You've already been accused of not doing any scum hunting, you know.

Also, let's not quick lynch Pom. Her posts lead me to believe that she is trying to get herself lynched quickly.

Yes, I think you are scum. There is obviously a gut aspect. There's also a logic aspect. I can't explain why my gut is making me go all twitchy. I will explain my logic later.

(A lot of my time on MS has been funneled in one direction in the past few hours. I need to start up a game on very short notice, and I need to write up a ruleset, Role PMs, etc.)

[Pomegranate]

Well, you ignored the corpse until you decided it was scummy that I ignored it.

I don't have time for a serious post now.

[Pomegranate]

Pomegranate doesn't look that much better. I haven't seen her do much in the way of scumhunting, and she had a god-awful reason for jumping on the Riza wagon[...]

if I'm not mistaken, I was only the second vote, and voted before MME replaced Vapor. I voted with reason, and MME brought up more that (I found) added to the case.

Gayle, you didn't even try that hard to derail the Riza wagon. Don't try to play the hero now.

You keep saying that it wasn't your responsibility to derail it. I don't think it was your responsibility to derail it, but if you really thought Riza was town, and you didn't want a mislynch, why couldn't you have explained your view?

It [the Riza wagon] was not justified in the least./quote]

Please explain why it wasn't justified in the least. (I didn't think I had to say it so directly, but explain why it wasn't justified, and why you didn't give the explanation then if you were so sure that she was town.)

Riza was your [MME] only suspect. It is not a misrep.

Yes it is a misrepresentation. If you need to look back to get your facts straight, then take the time.

Don't give me that bullshit. As if anyone could have dissuaded you from lynching Riza. Explain to me how anyone could have convinced you? And why the fuck should I have to dissuade you in the first place?

You should have

wanted

to dissuade us if you were so sure that Riza was town, and you wanted to stop a mislynch, like any townie should. We don't know whether you could have dissuaded us, because you didn't even try. And even if you were sure that you wouldn't have changed anything, you should still

try

. It's what townies do.

I did mention that I didn't agree with it. My main priority was to get Pom lynched, not to think for everyone else.

How were you trying to get me lynched other than by saying: "Pom hasn't scumhunted. She's on the Riza wagon. She's scummy. Let's lynch her." If you were so intent on lynching me yesterday, why didn't you provede a sturdier case, or try to persuade anyone on the Riza wagon?

[quote-"SK"]I'm also pretty sure Gayle did explain why he didn't like the Riza wagon.

She said something like: "I don't think what she did was scummy. I don't care if she was a hypocrite. K bai nau."

MME, what would have trying to dissuade you have resulted in? I would have had to go into a full blown defense of Riza, which would result in someone attacking me for said defense and I would have to go into a full blown defense of myself.

I did not have to go into full defense mode for Riza. You just had to give a simple explanation of why you didn't want us to lynch her. In fact, I didn't expect you to go in full defense mode for her:

Also, I don't have to refute your case.I am not a defense lawyer' [...]

I actually agree with this.

As evidenced by Riza, your gut in particular is not a reliable indicator of scum. I would suggest instead relying on the practice of "scumhunting", a practice so tried and true that should you refuse to do it, you will be accused of being scum yourself.

I'm sorry my gut isn't 100% accurate. Apparently yours isn't either.

That doesn't mean that an action committed by all three of those players isn't a scumtell.

Yes it does. If it doesn't hit scum every time, it's not a scumtell. It becomes a scum-or-town tell, which is completely useless. Basically, since you have accused all three of us of the same thing, you can't use that tell as proof that one of us is scum, since it is consistent for all of us. Once you're wrong about it once, you can't use it definitively anymore.

I think the problem is that SK (and I) think that townies

can

act scummy (and commit scumtells), but you (Nikanor0 think that town can't act scummy, only anti-town.

--

This is my post. I hope you like it. Or at least read it. Or at least read the things directed at you. Now, if I have asked you a question, or for a peice of information, please respond, because otherwise I will fly into a frustrated rage, and become angry at the game. If you "skimmed" it, but didn't actually skim it, go back. I will not put time into long posts if they aren't even read.

[Pomegranate]

I actually find it easier to follow, in an odd way.

[Pomegranate]

You keep saying that it wasn't your responsibility to derail it. I don't think it was your responsibility to derail it, but if you really thought Riza was town, and you didn't want a mislynch, why couldn't you have explained your view?

I assume this is addressed to me? Well, just a moment ago I reached enlightenment and enlightenment told me "Arguin' 'bout dat iz jez gibbin 'em wat dey want.", so I am not going to continue arguing about it anymore. So, for the last time:

I said what I didn't like about the case. I wasn't sure Riza was town. The votes on the bandwagon are scummy regardless. That is all.

I'm happy you admit that you weren't 100% sure of Riza's towniness. You don't seem quite as arrogant or scummy.

How were you trying to get me lynched other than by saying: "Pom hasn't scumhunted. She's on the Riza wagon. She's scummy. Let's lynch her." If you were so intent on lynching me yesterday, why didn't you provede a sturdier case, or try to persuade anyone on the Riza wagon?

The fact that you weren't scum hunting is reason enough as to why you should have been lynched. You are right that I did not try very hard to get you lynched. I will attempt to remedy that from here on.

I can't say I like the fact that you're going for my lynch, but that you'll actually try to get somewhere... that's pretty good.

She said something like: "I don't think what she did was scummy. I don't care if she was a hypocrite. K bai nau."

As opposed to your "Riza is scummy because she is a hypocrite and MME said so.".

Um, no.

Pom, that was not a case against me. You have not listed a single reason as to why I'm scummy. Instead you argue over why I should have defended Riza. You have zero basis for having called me scummy earlier in the game.

Notice that I am not voting you. I find you about neutral right about now, possibly even town. All my reads got mixed up after Riza's flip, and I'm still trying to sort them out. I know that there are scum here somewhere.

Despite this, I like you and believe we should become close friends. We should hang out sometime and... uh... you should .. ahem.. bring Plum along because... you know.. t-the more the merrier. There are no ulterior motives to this suggestion.

I'd love to be your friend; we can hang out any time. Unfortunately, Plum is insanely busy with a large theme game that is to be run soon, Lay of Leithian Mafia, which she has also put in her signature. It is based on J. R. R. Tolkien's

The Silmarillion

(Don't worry, no theme knowledge necessary!), and it will be totally awesome. You should join it. This is in no way an advertisement.

[Pomegranate]

I'll read through more carefully later, but from Gayle, on this page alone:

-fighting with MME (I'm tired, so I only skimmed so far)
-

Pom is still my top suspect.

Next post ITT:

-

Vote: Nikanor

Gayle, why do you consistently vote for a player who isn't your top suspect?

[Pomegranate]

I have an idea! Let's quick lynch Nikanor and then you won't have to worry about this game for awhile!

I was shocked to realize I was the only one voting him. Hop on, guys. Bandwagons can only lead to victory.

I agree with this enough- Nik jumped on the wagon with zero reasoning whatsoever other that "I trust MME because he's a good player. Vote: Riza".

I'll give Nik until tomorrow, but if there's nothing by then, he's definitely earned my vote.

[Pomegranate]

@Pom: Can you explain what you meant by "But [Riza's] timing is the key to her scumminess"? Who is your top suspect and why?

One of the reasons I found Riza scummy was because of the following sequence:

Vapor votes Pom, putting her at L-1
Pom FoSes Vapor
Riza mentions suspicion of Hetemens
JRC FoSes Vapor
Riza FoSes Vapor

I think that this was mentioned before- if Riza found Vapor scummy, why didn't she FoS him in her first post? Why did she wait until a couple of people had already expressed suspicion on him? That was the problem with Riza's timing.

[Pomegranate]

Weekly V/LA

.

[Pomegranate]

@Pom: Am I the only one you have suspicions of? What do you think of the Riza Wagon?

Who is your top suspect and why?

...Are you ignoring this question on purpose? Maybe the question is too boring, let's try to liven it up a bit.

Nikanor. I said that I would vote him if he didn't provide the content hhe promised. He should have had it yesterday, but he said that he needed unyil Friday. I will not be on MS later today. Therefore,

Vote: Nikanor

.

I was also suspicious of SK, but I will give TBM some time.

I am also suspicious of RF.

[Pomegranate]

POM - you said this to Gayle earlier:

Yes, I think you are scum. There is obviously a gut aspect. There's also a logic aspect. I can't explain why my gut is making me go all twitchy. I will explain my logic later.

Well, you ignored the corpse until you decided it was scummy that I ignored it.

Then you changed to...

Notice that I am not voting you. I find you about neutral right about now, possibly even town. All my reads got mixed up after Riza's flip, and I'm still trying to sort them out. I know that there are scum here somewhere.

Care to explain your change from "I have a logical case on you" to "Oh I have no read on you and you might even be town!"?

I think you touch upon it yourself. You said that I said "I have a logical case on you, Gayle!", while in the quote that you showed, I said that a lot of the case was gut.

My gut twinges a bit at Gayle, but I don't have much of a logical case on her- the best I could do would be to raise a few points, but I have already brought them up, if I'm not mistaken.

But I also find Nikanor scummy, and I'm willing to go for his lynch today instead. I think it's more likely that we will reach a lynch on him. I'm SICK of his active lurking, whatever excuses he has,

[Pomegranate]

Wait, I thought I posted here yesterday, in a response to things... I will do it tonight or tomorrow (since I have a day off).

[Pomegranate]

Fuck it. I'm getting sick of Pomegranate, and I've held myself in a mild mood for far too long. Someone needs to step up and get someone else lynched, or passivity is going to kill us.

But I also find Nikanor scummy, and I'm willing to go for his lynch today instead. I think it's more likely that we will reach a lynch on him. I'm SICK of his active lurking,

whatever excuses he has

,

Whatever excuses I have? You assume my excuses are valid, then. Therefore you assume I'm town. Therefore you're scum.

Vote: Pomegranate.

And guess what? I'm also sick of you people and your, 'He didn't explain his vote! He lynched the cop and he didn't explain his vote!' I don't care. I had a gut suspicion, and I went with it. I didn't say it was gut, because that's even more lame than not saying anything at all.
Now I'm going to correct the mistake I made yesterday by lynching Riza when I should have lynched Pomegranate. I trust you all will assist me in this endeavor.
Thank you.

Let me get this straight: Nikanor is voting me because I said that you have a lot of excuses. Therefore I think you're town. Therefore I'm scum.

I don't follow your logic- whether or not your excuses are real doesn't change the fact that you haven't posted any content in a very long time, and it doesn't mean that you're town. And even if I

did

assume you were town, why would that make me scum?

Confirm Vote: Nikanor

.

--

I'll double quote you. Yes, you said there was gut but you also explicitly said there was a logic aspect. But you never went into full details. You did have a quoting war with Gayle, yes, but I do not see where any of them would have been part of a 'logical aspect' of a case against him.

Yeah, I think I did have a part based on logic. I don't remember much of it- I think it was concerning the way that Gayle stood around on D1 saying that she didn't like the wagon on Riza, but that she didn't say why. (Since then she's explained that she wasn't sure on Riza.)

--

Pom - Also, I forgot to ask, why were you suspicious of SK? And why are you suspicious of Frost?

SK- I think it was because he didn't do anything. Since then he's been replaced by TBM, and I'm satisfies.

RF- He's only been posting fluff.

--

Nika, if you aren't even going to bother putting in the time for an adequate response, why did you drag this on for weeks?!

So you're scum.
(Please note that this is written in a completely different tone of voice from the rest of this post. I'm actually very serious about Chau being scum. Even if you lynch me, lynch Chau tomorrow for being the scum. That is all, thanks.)

You seriously make no sense. Just FWI.

Confirm Vote: Nikanor

.

--

Nikanor, if you aren't going to bother playing, then replace out of the fucking game.

I am playing. I'm telling you that Chau and Pom/Frost are scum. We can lynch Chau first if you'd like, since I'm >90% sure on that one, but Pom is just so much more likely to be lynched, so I'll stick with her.

Why is Chau my scumbuddy? She's trying to lynch me. And she was yesterday too.

Confirm Vote: Nikanor

.

--

What happened to the Nikanor wagon?

Yes, He's scum with RF, but can't we lynch him first??? Please??? (Gayle, I thought you were my friend!)

--

Can everyone who thinks RayFrost is town explain to me why?

-He doesn't post.
-What he

does

post doesn't add anything to the game at all.

What is townie about that?

RayFrost scum play is stereotypical scum play: Little Content, Bad Arguments, Posts about anything but scumhunting.

I plan to begin my "Lynch RayFrost, Save Lives" campaign soon, but I'm too lazy right now. You guys can get in on this early by voting now, though. When you vote for RayFrost you are automatically entered into a drawing to win an outfit just like the one you see in my avatar.

Yes, RF

is

scum. I agree with you entirely on that. But I really want to lynch Nik first. If it comes to I'll switch soon/later.

--

I'm up to page 24. Will continue tomorrow.

[Pomegranate]

I messed up all those tags, didn't I. Oh well.

[Pomegranate]

Hey TBM, you can also vote Nikanor...

[Pomegranate]

Okay, RF is fine. I'll give him a chance to post once (claim?), and then I'll most likely hammer.

[Pomegranate]

To all: I'm willing to go for either a Nikanor or RF lynch. Since MME unvoted,

Vote: RayFrost

.

[Pomegranate]

Weekly V/LA

.

Questions will be answered when I'm back.

[Pomegranate]

Post later today, I hope.

[Pomegranate]

That doesn't answer my question. He either claims vanilla or doc. Would you believe any of the two, regardless if they came from rayfrost?

I would not. And neither would you, correct? Then we only need to tell the doctor not to counterclaim.

I think at this stage claims are worthless, the only value they might carry is a possible counterclaim on a doc claim. If a doc claim gets counterclaimed we lynch the claimer obviously.

Either way, I find Pome's suspicion of Rayfrost to be very suspicious. Iso-read her:
- her suspicions of rayfrost appear when others suspect rayfrost
- she triple or quadruple confirms her vote on nikanor, but when the rayfrost bandwagon gets momentum she switches wagons, even wanting to hammer RF

Now, this does not imply anything about rayfrost's alignment as this could be indicative of Pome bussing or Pome pushing yet another mislynch (assuming pome is scum, which I'm almost certain of).


Also, perhaps coincidentally, her two scumreads are on people who have posted the most fluff of the game. I do not find fluff to be indicative of any alignment, nor is active lurking for that matter. And in fact, it's an easy ticket to appear scumhunting, especially when she didn't do much before this.

I'm sorry you find my suspicions of RF scummy. He is.
Yes. You touched upon the answer. I think they are both scum. Nikanor was at L-1. I want(ed- I still do) him to be hammered. But then I realized it wasn't going to happen, I switched to RF- BECAUSE I THINK THAT THEY ARE BOTH SCUMBUDDIES. Got it?

You agree that RayFrost is scum, yes?

Why is Nikanor a better lynch?

Which one do you think is more dangerous?

Pom. I know your switched your vote but can you answer this question Gayle asked before? Why did you think, previously, that Nika was a better lynch then Frost? Why did you want Nika lynched b4 Frost if they're both going to flip scum (in your eyes)?

Yes, RF is scum. I agree with you entirely on that. But I really want to lynch Nik first. If it comes to I'll switch soon/later.

Why are you so positive RF is scum? All you've said he is posts fluff.

Why is asking a person at L-1 with a threat to be hammered to claim foolish?

For the record Frost had an opportunity to claim back a page already. He was already L-1. Which is why Pom's insistence to put him back on L-1 just to wait for a claim is ridiculous. Particularly given how positive she is that frost is scum. Hence, I'm looking at a strong possibility of a Pom + Frost pairing.

I know it sounds bad, but Nik was a better lynch simply because he conveniently already had three votes on him.

I think he's scum. I've seen RFscum before. And he hasn't done anything. And my poorly tuned gut says so.

Um, he was at L-1, and I said I'd give him one more chance to post before hammering. That was it.

Pomegranate is so obvious, though. I really don't know what the holdup is.
The point of the game is to lynch scum. I'm trying to do just that by lynching Pom, but you guys aren't helping me do that, so I'm asking what's taking y'all so long.

Don't say that you're trying, and that no one's helping you. You aren't doing anything- all you did was jump on a stupid bandwagon for no reason other than the fact that it was the only other BW than your own.

(Lynch all Liars comes to mind.)

Okay, RF is fine.

I'll give him a chance to post once (claim?)

, and then I'll most likely hammer.

To all: I'm willing to go for either a Nikanor or RF lynch.

Since MME unvoted,

Vote: RayFrost.

Yes, I voted him once it wasn't the hammer anymore. He hadn't posted yet.

She said she was sure of rayfrost. What good would waiting for rayfrost's claim do in her willingness to hammer? It's not like she would have gone like "oh, shit, a vanilla/doc, let's unvote". She only asked for the claim so she would look protown. If she was so sure of rf, she would have hammered him.

I'm with chau on this, her hopping to the rayfrost wagon is both opportunistic and straight out appealing to the town.

That's what I do. I give people one more chance. I'm sorry if you have a problem with the way I play the game.

Anyway, I don't have anything valuable to claim, etc.

I AM GOD, EMPREROR SUN! /reference

I'm this undead emperor using the water dragon's heart in order to continue to live past my designated time. I'm also sapping her mighty powers for my own.

Unfortunately, I got owned by the heroes, so now I'm just this feeble old man in the spirit world with a bunch of angry spirits that want to eat me.

So I'm basically powerless against that which to do me harm.

Will someone

please

hammer RayFrost?

[Pomegranate]

Oh yeah, I forgot about this, go town! (Come on, do it!)

[Pomegranate]

N1 I was sure I'd be D2's lynch. mid-D2 I thought I might be able to get through it, because there were somewhat strong wagons on Nikanor and Ray. But then RF hammered me, looking SO obvscum, it's a wonder he wasn't quicklynched by town in my opinion. Well, congratulations scum, for winning, GG all. Theta, if you don't want to join another game, don't, but if you're hesitating, you may want to join another.

[Pomegranate]

Sorry about that...