Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

[Amished]

/confirm

Thanks for modding

[Amished]

Well, at least we're all here. I think we're gonna get it switched just because ABR doesn't like 2 person scumteams >_>

[Amished]

lol I know, I'm just teasing

[Amished]

/here (confirming is for conformists)

[Amished]

IT'S CAUSE HE KNOWS THAT VI IS TOWN. And that you're scum, VP... Either way, he's your partner then so therefore

Vote: Sando

[Amished]

Unvote
Vote: Scien

It's pretty easy to check Vi's "meta" of L-x; regardless, it looks like Scien it trying to latch on to anything, even when it's not particularly relevant to the game.

Also, Sando is correctomundo about us being the scumteam last time which is why I wanted to vote for somebody that had been scum not all that long ago.

[Amished]

@Charlatan: Apparently Scien's answers weren't satisfactory to you to move to Vi?

[Amished]

.... Fine.

@Charlatan: If you were not going to switch because of the answers, what was the point of the questions that you posed to Scien?

[Amished]

I don't wanna talk about food.

I did get a weird vibe from the SC/ABR "wagon" on VP. I'm pretty sure one of them has to be scum; though I'm feeling SC more than ABR. I think it's the tone of the vote post by SC; but it could be something I'm "seeing" but not seeing (if you know what I mean).

[Amished]

Well, char; you had a fucked up comment (something like "I'll unvote you if you have a good answer to what you had for lunch"). Obviously you didn't unvote so whatever it was that Scien? had wasn't good enough for you. I'm wondering either what the fuck the point of the question was or why you'd say something so pointless in the first place.

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@Scien: Really? In 202 you seem to be implying that people that can get a read on other people in murky waters is *almost* impossible; by basically directly calling VP and I really good (referring to "how can I get this good" towards VP and then relating that to my read on ABR/SC wagoning VP). You weren't in Last Man Standing, but in post 93 I had voted for CA for a specific line that he said (which always gets me non-scum it seems like) but also nailed two scum out of my vibes. I take pretty high stock in them; and in another ongoing I picked out at least 2 scum in my 5 accusations due to vibes (out of 15 alive).

@VP: I hate hate hate hate my meta of you. That is all I'm saying on the issue.

I actually wouldn't doubt an {ABR/SC}/Scien/Ojanen scumteam. OJ is the one I'm least confident about.

[Amished]

I just don't think that two scum would start a wagon together like that out of the blue. Yeah, anything can happen, but with the level of people here I think that they'd avoid that.

It's just the way that the wagon on VP started (and since it started within like 3-4 posts without checking) gives the whole situation a bad vibe instead of being able to pick out one over the other. I do think that SC is more likely to be scum due to that instance than ABR but I wouldn't be surprised with either.

I often remember very little about specifics in a game; but I tend to recognize tones, and when they don't fit. About the only thing I remember of the Last Man Standing game (that I referenced earlier) is d3x's (scum) self preservation type tone early on and Ecto's (scum) shooting of Vi cause it didn't seem to ring right with their other actions. I know VP was suspicious of me for a long time for reasons yet unknown; and Vi didn't lead us to victory (other than being a great backup mod and making fun of my non-pacifist Amish persona ). Right now, the only thing that *really* stands out to me is the early votes on VP. ABR is hard to read anyways and I haven't had that much time to look over SC; but that situation just keeps bugging me for some reason.

[Amished]

Sando, I thought VP made it clear that he was focused on ABR with the "didn't say LAL" comment; while he did say LAL after his first vote or something like that.

[Amished]

Why did you ask Zorblag over Ojanen, ABR?

[Amished]

I remember that lynch fondly.... >_>

[Amished]

@Vi: Thank you for being the voice of reason.

@SC: I've been getting a better read of you lately; and I think you're overreacting to a personal pet peeve (admitted to or not) of yours. Calm down and look at the situation again.

On a related note

Unvote
Vote: Albert B. Rampage

[Amished]

I said that I thought either you {abr} or SC were scum. With SC not being read as scum; that leaves you!

[Amished]

@ABR: It was due to the start of the VP wagon (like I mentioned). That particular instance looked scummy as hell from somewhere; and you and SC were the two that were involved. Since I'm getting a better read on SC now, that leaves you that really .. tripped my trigger? in that instance.

[Amished]

@SC: I must've missed this; when did VP get on ABR for talking about looking for connections?

[Amished]

Oh, different person talking to without my @ thing or something; I got confused.

@ABR: Yes, from somewhere in there (one of you two). Since I feel comfortable cutting half the somewhere out of my somewhere, I'm lead somewhere else that I'm comfortable being. Yeah, follow that >_>

[Amished]

I know exactly why my vote is on you, it's just hard to put it into words. Your "pufferfish" dealio isn't (and shouldn't) scare anybody off.

[Amished]

Between 126 and 130; you unvote and revote for VPB. It's specifically 130 that your tone while being after SC's 128 and VP's 129 that I think it's bad. I didn't realize that you had your vote on VP before that point so that's not part of it either.

To try to put it another way, you don't seem like somebody that would resign yourself to anything, and your "Ah what the hell" is pretty much exactly that from my perspective.

[Amished]

Actually, I have a lot of respect for you as a player and you're pretty much the only one that I actively looked for finished games to read and try to pattern my game around you; but not exactly cause I didn't (and still don't) think I can pull off about half the stuff you can. Hate has nothing to do with it.

[Amished]

Wow 263 is an abomination of the English language.

Points instead so I'm less confused about what I said.
1) First staring MS.net, I only looked for ABR games.
2) Tried to develop a style similar to ABR, looking more at gut reads and stuff
3) Realized that I'm not that good and didn't make it quite to where ABR is.

[Amished]

Does a stupid strategy really warrant a vote? If you can see where he's coming from (if he's town which you apparently do) you can pretty much say "knock it off" and you'd illicit a better response than a vote where you say he's scummy.

Meh, I did that too, I used my Grandma's big magnifying glass >_>

[Amished]

Regardless of where your vote was before 126 (cause I didn't realize it at first, and since you unvoted signaling that you really didn't have much against him {VP} up until then), you're basically saying that you're OMGUS'ing due to 127 cause 129 by VPB isn't anything against you.

In 127 VP basically says that you're more reactive this game than he remembers you. So instead of proving him wrong; you go on a .. 4 page vote-park on him to the exclusion of talking about much else that I remember; while I know that VP has been the source of discussion while you've gone on the back burner for the rest of the town. As such, there's been much more information to analyze around VP and discern his alignment while the same hasn't been for you.

An added benefit that I didn't expect from having my vote on you is that you're talking more about yourself which is actually quite useful in discerning your alignment. So far I'm leaning scum based on what you've said about yourself; and this is also drawing attention to you which is good for the town no matter your alignment.

What I think is most telling, especially about your most recent post, is that for the longest time you had every intention of pushing for VP's lynch (indicating that you think he's scum). If you see so many parallels between the two of you; how do you justify the pressure if you're town? Your claim that you just wanted to pressure him *after* SC left the wagon seems especially revisionist and not something I'm really buying.

[Amished]

@Char: I think the point that Troll was trying to make is that you were trying to bait somebody (not necessarily me, but anybody) on something that you couldn't really defend as anything *but* "oh hai, wuz joke lulz, got reackshun"

Dammit anyway, where's DDD?

Unvote
Vote: DebonairDannyDiPietro

I don't care if you don't have nothing to weigh in on, weigh in on it anyways.

[Amished]

Haha, thanks. The Amish with horse-powered computers like I do celebrate it...

[Amished]

@SC: I had her as a possible third scum mostly cause I didn't see her stand out. I've really only seen her as scum while I was modding; and she seemed to be about the same. Obviously a one time one sided meta is useless; but I didn't get a pro-town vibe off of her like I did with many other people so far. Her 290 I got townie vibes from, but it's only one post so I'll have to reserve more definitive judgment til later.

tl; dr version: OJ is an uncomfortable neutral.

[Amished]

So there's nothing in 11 pages that you'd want to talk about at all? I've said my scumteam possibility, and if you actually bothered to read any more of my responses; you'll see that OJ isn't a strong candidate for that. However, other people are pressuring PCE for content, so I figure I can pressure you.

1) I've lost too many games because of lurkers (either lynching them if they're pro-town or not if they're scum)

2) I like the smell of OMGUS in the morning.

3) You're a player too, and you know what you pick up on that's scummy moreso than I know your outlook. Is my questioning you really the only (or most important) scummy thing you've seen all game?

[Amished]

So there's nothing in 11 pages that you'd want to talk about at all? I've said my scumteam possibility, and if you actually bothered to read any more of my responses; you'll see that OJ isn't a strong candidate for that. However, other people are pressuring PCE for content, so I figure I can pressure you.

1) I've lost too many games because of lurkers (either lynching them if they're pro-town or not if they're scum)

2) I like the smell of OMGUS in the morning.

3) You're a player too, and you know what you pick up on that's scummy moreso than I know your outlook. Is my questioning you really the only (or most important) scummy thing you've seen all game?

4) I acknowledge that I can be wrong; so if I am, this way I can get more information about the rest of the town and gauge myself on that as well.

[Amished]

I've also lost many games for not lynching anti-town lurkers. Lurkers hurt games. Period.

I'm glad you've put so much effort into your "case" against me to even convince anybody of anything; so congratulations on that effort.

Blah blah blah, I couldn't get a read on you. I don't like that in any game I'm in. You wanna actually post your thoughts on me; or anything? Apparently not, you just wanna attack the person who called you out. I'd be flabbergasted if you could prove anything other than you attacking me and (just now) defending your position of not providing content.

To your "calling the team" thing; you really think I'm blind?

In any case, I called out the three people that at the time I felt were scummiest. I could see them all on a team just due to the fact that they're all scummy in my eyes at that time. With my vote I wanted you to weigh in, and now it's fulfilling a purpose of being on somebody scummy.

[Amished]

However, other people are pressuring PCE for content, so I figure I can pressure you.

Does this strike anyone else as something a 10 year old would say?

Ummm, lol? How is this relevant at all; and even more relevant than anything else you could've commented on?

[Amished]

@DDD: Yes, I can't get a read on you cause you don't post for shit.

Calling the team is a "bad idea" for this setup cause technically you can be seeing the Mason grouping connections rather than the Mafia connections (or so what I thought ABR was worried about or whatever). Also, they're all individually scummy; while also having the potential to be together. I haven't looked too hard into scum-type interactions where they have to distance a bit, etc.. so that's an admitted "weak" point in my "team" calling.

I'm not blind because if I know that there's mason pairings, I can discern which of the two types of connections I'm seeing; pro-town or anti-town.

I actually encourage you to to back to read the post where I had my accused calling the team:

I actually wouldn't doubt an {ABR/SC}/Scien/Ojanen scumteam. OJ is the one I'm least confident about.

At the time this is my top 3 suspects. I was questioned about the {ABR/SC} thing; but nobody else seemed to have a problem as they understood what I meant. If you'd like, you can question me about why I think what I do about each player; but nope, you accuse me of doing something bad (which is bad for you only because ABR said so) without knowing why it was bad or why I said what I said. You apparently don't care what the motivations were behind what I said, since apparently you don't wish to question me about it.

This post should've gone yesterday, but I lost internet access while writing. I'll catch up now.

[Amished]

Well, that was nice as I didn't have to catch up on nearly as much as I thought I would.

@char: Scien has been put on the back burner for now; since I was attacking ABR (and saw that that was going less than nowhere and I didn't want to keep repeating myself about me "hating" ABR) and now called on somebody who didn't have as much content as most of the people around. The two lingering occurances that I remember specifically are still the SC/ABR vote on VP and DDD's omgus.

@DDD: Do you really think that I could not get a read on a player if they weren't addressing me? I pressured you, a lurker, into posting your thoughts. If I couldn't get a read on people by seeing their interactions with yet another group of people, I'd be a pretty piss poor player. In fact, I don't even think that people who play their first games are that bad as they read other people's posts and get a feel for them. Your "reasoning" for voting me seems particularly not very thought out, which is a rather serious thing to me.

You see: when town votes for somebody, be it pressure or calling somebody scum; they have a full reason why they think somebody is scummy; and can explain it thoroughly with the posts that have been there at the time and not have to add or change around meanings cause they know exactly what they meant and why they meant it. Scum, on the other hand say that something is scummy often because it appears so on the surface. They don't try to understand the reasoning behind it because they don't want to (due to the fact that they know the reasoning is from a townie) so they don't bother to really dig into something the way I would expect an experienced townie to do so.

For example: when you say that my vote was scummy for asking you for content; you don't think about how me reading your content could help me get a read on you. When you say that my calling the team is scummy, you don't think about why I said what I did or why I'm acting towards other people the way I'm acting.

As another example: Charlatan questioned me about my {ABR/SC} thing as it's not readily apparent why I would say something like that; but he wanted to understand the reasoning behind it.

To tie this into the wagon on Char: I think his wagon is being unnaturally inflated. I couldn't even tell you who is on the wagon apart that I know that it's larger than I would expect it to be for what he's said. From my experience, I've seen cases built up over a solitary line and pretty much always hit a town. It's especially easy to nail somebody to a wall because of one line as scum. I've even done it as town a couple times, and it's hit town. I remember a newbie game I got into a 5? page quote war with another townie over a simple misunderstanding of a line; which lead to a perfect scum victory as I was leading for them and could be killed for WIFOM purposes. I remember in NY91; there was a case against somebody for having his words twisted into him thinking that "he was the only vanilla townie" and I'm pretty sure that he ended up town. I attacked ... not sure at the moment, he was the town cop inheritor.. in LOST mafia with me scum for a stupid comment. I attacked ConfidAnon (doc) in Last Man Standing for a single line.

These types of attacks hit town far too often in my experience to be comfortable with this wagon at all. It's something that I want to look into for more detail when I have time, but I'm celebrating my birthday tomorrow night after a family christmas in the morning; so I don't have the time I want to do what I want to do.

[Amished]

@Vi: I liked half of Char's initial point against SC (in ISO 24). The time between posts is weak and I understand not being able to get to a computer on either side; however the point about the switch of stance between 176 and 187 on VP is a good one (in my opinion) and the giving himself {SC} a way to back out of VP suspicion all looks pretty good.

I think the rest of Char's point (in 24) is him trying to convince the rest of us that he's found scum by pulling what he sees has scum motivation behind it; but it mostly looks like confirmation bias which I haven't seen scum have all that often.

Unfortunately for me; I keep flipflopping on if I think SC is scum or not. For a bit he's looking good, then he's not as much. What really sucks is that out of my {SC/ABR} pair; they're both on Charlatan which doesn't exactly help me if I think that one of the two are scum and I have to figure out which is what alignment on that part of the puzzle.

The more I try to understand ABR; the more I think he's town though. Namely trying to provoke my attack on several occasions; though he

is

ABR...

[Amished]

@Sando: If he {Charlatan} can intelligently defend himself (therefore I'm assuming that he's defending himself adequately if it's an intelligent defense), why does that make him scum?

[Amished]

Unvote
Vote: xRECKONERx

Gentlemen, we have scum <3

[Amished]

You saw Jazzmyn do it as scum. I know that you saw the only time it failed and I went back to see why I went wrong; and I know what happened. I was just overeager and didn't read it comprehensively.

[Amished]

@VP: To clarify; the difference is what happens after the reread that I didn't take into account before. Skimming posts for questions and answers (which was the failure); or criticism.

Jazzmyn
Scien
ABR (hi!)
yours truly

That's just ones that I've caught/remembered specifically.

For those of you that don't know what's going on; I've basically come up with a scumtell that if you *criticize* who you replaced in; you're scum. This is a refinement from what I had it (if you read your replacement at all you were scum); but this seems to cover all the instances where I've seen/remember it. If you're town, you really don't have to worry about your predecessor as you know they're town; but if you think that they're scummy; then you're scum. As town, you know that you're not scummy and don't deserve criticism at all.

[Amished]

TR-R-R-R-R-RIPLE POST

Anyways, compare those links to xRx's 392. I'm telling you guys.

[Amished]

@Zorblag: The second one of the three you linked I would've voted you for. The other two (given my current read on the scumtell) would've been fine.

@Charlatan: I know that not many (if any) people have really heard of "my" scumtell; but even still as scum *I* would avoid looking at myself at all. Avoiding "myself" is a nulltell, but criticism is a scumtell more often than not.

@Troll again: What made you criticize your predicessor's play in those three games that you linked (particularly the second one)?

[Amished]

@Zorblag: No, you really only accused him {Far_Cry} of being inactive while demonstrating a full read of the game. In this game, xRx's *first* action was to assess and criticize his replacee as being *scummy* (xRx really said that his predicessor's pressure was a stupid place to put it, but with him {xRx} mentioning it first and making a point to defend himself (without pressure, I want to point out) I believe that my scumtell applies in this case.

This really had only taken place for you {Troll} in the 2nd of the 4 you linked to. Granted, before an ongoing game I would've been highly suspicious of you because of that (and only that) reason in all 4; it actually ended up taking til ABR's post (which was the last of the 4 that I've seen and recognize) in Hellsing Mafia that I started actively attacking those that reviewed their predecessors seriously first and foremost then hounding them until they got lynched/shot. In this type of outlook it's 50% accurate (out of two); but before that I've linked to all 4 of the games where I specifically remember it coming up and noticing it; so 5/6ths of the time it's hit scum (just talking about the predicessor in any manner).

Now that I understand what I did wrong (I believe) with the 1/6th that was innocent, it's back up to 100% if you exclude my own personal bias and mistake.

Finally, I ask you {Troll}: what pressure what xRx really under before he replaced in?

Charlatan had (and still does) have a ton of votes. I was voting for DDD. As far as I know there was not a single person that really suspected Scien most (or even 2nd most) out of anybody. xRx had absolutely 0 pressure on him when he replaced in. Not that it changes my outlook on xRx's actions, but it will prolly affect how you look at it.

[Amished]

WRT xRx: I've looked through all (town and scum) games that he's linked to in his wiki and isolated those that he replaced into. Unfortunately he's only replaced into like 2 games outta 20; one as town and one as scum that I saw. (Come on, replace into games, help out moderators for crying out loud!)

In the two replacee games, he didn't talk about who he replaced at all.

[Amished]

I was more looking if he {xRx} did it as town; which seemed to be the major hangup. Before I did it; I hadn't done it as town or scum; but then I replaced in as scum and criticized my predecessor and never did it since since I view it as that much of a scumtell.

[Amished]

@VP: I view both you and Charlatan to be suffering from confirmation bias and tunnelvision. Char is less guilty of TV than you {VP} are though in my eyes. I get an undertone of charlatan's posts that he's frustrated that the same points that he's defending himself again get brought up in a slightly different manner; while I think that if it's an easy point to defend against, he'd be happy to prove his innocence through that if he were scum.

I hate my meta of you. You're really the only person on the site where I do have a meta on somebody, and yours absolutely sucks. Since I truly believe you to be town, I'm asking you to take a step backwards and re-evaluate the game as I do believe that Charlatan is town as well.

[Amished]

@VP: How about when you told PCE to shoot me in Last Man Standing? How about after you helped finish off Benmage in said game you didn't have an early scum read on any of the remaining scum (where I shot Jazz and d3x).

How about when you wanted ckd dead for multiple days in LOST? Yes, I was scum but you were so far off the right track I wanted to keep you around forever.

I'm pretty sure those are the only two games you've been town, now that I think about it...

[Amished]

@VP: I called Benmage and d3x scum very early on (especially d3x); but nobody listened to me either. At each true death/shooting I had the right read on who died, other than Sotty; and that was cause of her connection to you.

So we'll turn it around, when we're both town, when do *I* lead *you* wrong when you don't agree with me?

[Amished]

@SC: We're both trying to convince each other that we're right and it's not working.

@VP: Awwww <3

[Amished]

@Serial and VPB: I've read pages and walls of text and everything going back and forth. I want both of you to summarize your 3 best points against Char in a paragraph each (so 3 paragraphs from each of you) on why you feel he's scum.

[Amished]

@SC: It's kinda my attempt to shut down the fucking walls o' text that you all are putting out. You three combined are about as bad as Mastin; and he's one of two people that I'll never play with again. If we can cut it down the absolutely scummiest actions that you see, we have a better point to see the barebones cases without having to read 1000+ words and checking quotes to see if it's in context or not.

Your {SC} third paragraph in 458 is the best argument (from anybody) that I've seen made for Charlatan-scum. I remember a game where I thought a scumbag was town (MMan IIRC) for something early on; and had weak arguments against him. Yes, they were on the right person, but the arguments weren't put together all that convincingly.

I think xRx is 100% scum but apparently nobody (but DDD, thanks ) cares. Maybe I'll try for tomorrow.

Unvote
Vote: charlatan

L-2 if the only thing that's changed since the last votecount is ABR unvoting and going after PCE (which I'm more and more inclined to agree with as well).

[Amished]

No, what mostly convinced me is the fact that there's vocal support but you're not getting lynched. I do see a lot of support for the position that you're scummy, but since you're not lynched that signals to me that scum want to say that they're supporting you, but don't want to buss you D1.

Otherwise (you-town) would have scum slowly going towards your wagon and building up to your lynch. With the support and resistance out there, the overall game-state makes me believe you're scum rather than anything in particular that you've done or anything that SC/VP has put against you.

[Amished]

Yeah, a lot gets lost in the big walls just cause I CBA'd to read all that crap going back and forth.

Judging by apparant suspicion of you, we have a majority of the town that's prepared to lynch you, but the votes on you never quite reach where they should be reaching.

[Amished]

@SC: I only noticed that you really stated that you didn't like that people were supporting the wagon without voting once, when I think you brought up Vi and Ojanen.

I really feel I'm on the right track with Char in a just read of the players (leaning tunneled townie); but the rest of the game (in my eyes) doesn't agree with that read. I realize that there's only 3 scum, but out of my current top 4 scumspects; 2 are on the Charlatan wagon. It could still be that the town has the same reservations (or not) and don't want to vote for somebody that they have doubts about.

@Everyone *not* voting Char: What is your main reason for voting for somebody else? (directed at
2. Albert B. Rampage (on PCE)
5. Ojanen (on VPB)
8. xRECKONERx (on SC)
10. PorkchopExpress (on DDD)
11. Debonair Danny DiPietro (on xRx)
12. Vi (on DDD))

In the case of ABR/xRx who recently voted, oblige me with a sentence if you would, please.

[Amished]

@xRx: Yes. Especially after rereading the early game to look for something else, Scien was really scummy during that period as well, which is why I had my vote on him.

[Amished]

I'm going with VP on this issue. I was in Last Man Standing too and I remember PCE doing nothing; while the actives (scum, except for d3x) were all there and posting a lot. Personal experience with PCE seeing him as hugely town especially on the last day while being in the mire for the rest of the game.

I was supposed to shoot him {PCE} on the last day cause I was convinced he was scum until then due to a good fake-claim by d3x. Instead I did get a read on him before it was too late and shot down the last scum to help win the game.

@Ojanen: Why do you hate me? I got super sick this morning and slept for about 13 hours. My activity is going to be low for a little bit.

Much happier with my Char vote after xRx's scramble to push for PCE over Char.

[Amished]

@Sando: I love how you swap votes while still leaving major suspicion about Char (your previous vote) while giving absolutely no reasoning for you to vote for PCE even though you're "more than happy to switch"

[Amished]

I would go so far as to say that porkchop is a better lynch than charlatan because at least with the latter we will have a lot to play with in later days.

Because PCE has gotten by so far without doing much of any real effort, and I've learned you don't let that just slip by, otherwise you wind up with either a) a scum who's slipping by unnoticed or b) a townie who is an easy mislynch later.

With *convincing* arguments like these, how can I really avoid voting for PCE? Oh wait, I know; they're terrible and I don't see how anybody can really be swayed to join a vote on PCE due to crap like this.

We have: "Day1 lynches are random and we can't do any scumhunting now so we'll get rid of somebody today that might or might not be scummy"

and

"I'm not mentioning the obvious hole in my logic that c) this is a townie who is an easy mislynch now that is the goal that I really want as I'm scum"

@Sando: Your initial vote was on PCE for having a random vote that wasn't random. Throughout that you really didn't say much of anything on PCE. Actually, now that I double check, this is your whole reasoning for having your vote on him. It really does seem like you should be voting for Charlatan over PCE given your ISOs 27, 28 and 29; while you "attacking" PCE occurred in 25 (talking about random vote) and 9 (still asking about the random vote).

Can we lynch any of Sando/Char/xRx now?

[Amished]

@xRx: If I had to put a number on it from my read of the game, I'd say PCE is 85% likely to be town.

As for you over ABR; I see more scummy interactions coming from your slot while with ABR he's just weird. I have no idea what's going through his head, but for some reason I don't think he's putting his full time or effort into this game. I do not know the reason for this; but it's something that I still won't get an answer for after the game I'm thinking.

Also, you {xRx} have done my scumtell which pretty much makes you certain scum.

[Amished]

@ABR: If you're gonna barn the charlatan case like that, I can do it too: PCE is just lazy. That may make him a bad townie, but it doesn't prove that he's scum in any way.

Also, and DDD can attest to this (lover's, ugh): one way meta's are dangerous. I do just see PCE as lazy this game and not scummy. If you're going to talk about somebody not really contributing, I suggest you look at Sando. His self-assigned major selling point was that he had a case against PCE which I already talked about (2 posts, maybe 2 sentences per post); and then hunted Charlatan but didn't vote for him.

@DDD: You know, you're right; but I do see enough of a situation to have Char-scum lynched as well. I'm not going to abandon a wagon on a top 3 suspect that has *scum* connections to my top suspect when said wagon is at L-2; and my top is at L-5 or L-6. Especially as I tried to convince everybody of the validity of my point and I was dismissed by 3-4 people right then and there; and ignored by a couple more. That doesn't allow me to get a lynching majority on xRx; but there are more days for that as well.

@VP: I want you to admit this: my top suspect (xRx) has scum connections to your top suspect in your eyes, right? For xRx to have scum connections, he has to be scum. My tell has come through again and should be a valid place to put your vote on as well. Damn stubborn so-and-so.

[Amished]

-snip-

As for what I don't understand, it's really that it gained so many people so relatively quickl

y; the falling into place all of a sudden shouldn't just be a matter of 3 of the 4 on it now being scum (I suppose that might be happening but scum really don't clump like that in general) and it wasn't just a matter of being pressured or badgered or tricked into it or anything.

I'm not seeing why 2 or 3 town would fall into place that quickly on an issue which wasn't a change from what had been happening all game (lack of content from PorkchopExpress.)

-snip-

(Bolding mine)

Exactly. Right now I read ABR town by PoE (my scum reads are all pretty strong) but then 2/3 scum hopping on *is* reasonable and would make sense if the counter-wagon (Char) is scum and they're trying to build it when nothing has really changed.

However, I'm really wondering why we'd (proverbial we) expect people to make mistakes.

Even more to the point, ABR: You've seen Charlatan make mistakes *as town*. Why would him making mistakes here now be a scumtell?

[Amished]

VP, let him be, he's scum and knows that none of us are scum so he doesn't want to make a false case that he can't back up.

[Amished]

If you think (or know, now, apparently) that Char is scum; I'd really like to see your argument for how the two of them are connected.

[Amished]

Bah.

[Amished]

Well, I did my part; and unfortunately I couldn't lynch the confirmed scum (gogo tell!).

If I had really thought about what was going on, Sando and ABR are the two masons; and Vi was scum for me on D1. Damn me not trusting myself; I kept getting PR tells from Vi; and the ABR wagoning with SC right away is what made him look scummy; which tends to find PR's more often than not.