A Clash of Kings - A Divided Kingdom

[MacavityLock]

Vote: MacavityLock

. He's the serial killer, even if his role PM says otherwise.

Oh, Mina. I wasn't a serial killer last time, and I'm not a serial killer this time.

OR AM I?

No, no I'm not.

Raise: MacavityLock

FoS: Everybody who's not Raising themselves

. If you're town, you're risking giving a double-vote to scum.

Vote: LynchMePls

. Bandwagon ho!

[MacavityLock]

Classic IIoA scumtell in post #27.

I agree!

Unvote. Vote: Richard

[MacavityLock]

Everybody raising themselves is stupid for trying to say others are scum. Not everyone can raise themselves, or nobody will get the double vote.

But not everyone is raising themselves... And, I don't see anyone that is raising himself/herself to try and say others are scum. They may be doing it to say "I'm not scum" but not the other way around.

Yeah, I totally FoSed people for it. So, does that change things?

@Drip: It's hard to analyse stuff when there have only been RVS posts that will most likely not affect the game in any way.

Haha, wrong. There's all sorts of tasty stuff to analyze so far.

@CMAR: I find it pretty hilarious that you have a "genuine scum read" on me when we're only on Page 3 and nothing has even happened yet. If you have actual reasons, I'd like to see them. Otherwise, stop trolling.

Stuff has happened, and you playing this off like it's trolling is scum-mojo.

DrModem, are you an alt or a newb? If a newb, have you played mafia on other sites?

[MacavityLock]

Mcav, whatya think of Deer?

Tastes good in stews and as a steak.

I see the tell of trying to avoid all responsibility for a potential vote. I'd say he's leaning towards the scummy side. Still, I do think that there are other people scummier.

I've played mafia on other sites.

I should say that there is no random vote "period" in my mind. I make one random vote unless something solid grabs my attention.

Really does contradict what you said earlier where you said RVS existed for you until Day 2. Then you turned back on saying there was no "Random Voting period" and you only make one random vote until you found something.

Agree, explain DrModem.

SSBF: Why the unvote on Deer? Why a separate post from the big one previous?

And Richard certainly remains deserving of my vote.

[MacavityLock]

I see some stuff stays consistent between player sets.

Ok, I'm obviously a mafia because of my stance on randomly voting people. Kill me.

/sarcasm.

Doesn't answer the question.

Still, I do think that there are other people scummier.

Who, or...whom?

The people I'm in the process of questioning.

[MacavityLock]

Whichever method is used, the Hand of the King will become a double voter from the beginning of Day 2. The Hand may split the two votes. Both votes will be public.

The Hand may not be stripped of his title in any way. A new Hand will not be chosen on the Hand’s death.

[MacavityLock]

I'm thinking....we don't need to raise a hand on D1 do we?

A Hand of the King will be raised when there is a simple majority (i.e. 14 votes). Alternatively, whoever has the most ‘raise’ votes at the time of the Day 1 lynch, will be raised.

Pay attention to the rules, people.

DethHydra, do you really think that's a tell from vez?

[MacavityLock]

Unsight, why is SSBF worse than Richard here?

[MacavityLock]

I agree that Richard's refusal to acknowledge the serious phase is scummy (as is pretty much everything else he's done all game)...but in that post (your third of the game) you don't really comment on any of that tasty stuff (other than halfheartedly supporting Drippereth's Deer case). What tasty stuff in particular were you referring to that Richard should have commented on? Something about these points rubbed my gut the wrong way.

Well, by that point in the game, there was your fakeclaims discussion, there's my FoSes, CMAR's "RVS over" stuff, xvart's having missed my FoSes, Modem's Jester talk, the Deer/DethHydra back and forth, probably a few other things I missed. To ignore all that and say that everything going on is still random, and that it's trolling to say that it isn't, is awful. I'm not saying that Richard had to discuss all of those points, or even any of those in particular. But there was stuff going on.

By the way, now is as good a time as any to be out with it. My FoSes were made as a way to generate discussion and get reactions. Of course not everybody is going to Raise themself; it would make everything pointless. So, I wanted to see if I could find any reasonable or unreasonable responses. And I think I have.

Reasonable

Kleedrac - Already Raising himself, asked mod to confirm it was an option.
Magna - Tested me with his Raise as per 173. Great play.
Lynch, Mina, Axelrod - Discussing what the right way to go about Raising is. This is what should be going on.

On the fence

dana - Thinks I'm stupid for the FoSes, but doesn't mention me by name, FoS, or vote me.
xvart - I'm not really sure what the semantic problem here is.
Most everybody ignoring me - Probably okay, but tough to tell.

Unreasonable

Richard - Direct follow. He wants my FoS off him, so he does exactly what I say.
SSBF, I doubt it - Lack of taking responsibility for the self-Raise
Paranoia - His intro and only post talks only about Raising and reactions to it. He just FoSes me and Magna, doesn't vote. If you think my post was bad, why wasn't it worthy of a vote?
vezo - All over the place in terms of Raising: Raises self, then suggests we Raise the lynchee, then soft claims, requests the Raise, and doesn't even change his Raise to himself in doing so.

[MacavityLock]

I missed 3 pages on my beach day. Damn.

Before I go off to dinner, two things:
1) Richard, is there a difference in your kill trigger depending on if you are lynched or killed?
2) I am completely against DethHydra having the double-vote. This is not because I think that (it) is anti-town at this point; it is because I believe it could make it that much harder to read (it).

Will attempt to do a closer read of the pages I missed.

[MacavityLock]

I'll be in favor of raising you. Like others said, you have been playing very well. Although I prefer to raise Macavity Lock instead, you're not a bad choice either.

When had you ever mentioned me as a candidate for Raising? This is weird and out of the blue.

Hopping on the Richard bandwagon for now, 'til I have more time to read through the last few pages I've missed.

Unvote
Vote: Richard

Why get on the bandwagon before reading?

unvote

vote: richardhgb

I like a good bandwagon

Wow, what an amazing and compelling vote and argument. I am just flabbergasted on how you have convinced me how scummy richard is and how town you are.

This seems like such an

easy

post to make, picking out something obviously poor and snidely commenting on it.

Claim: Renly Baratheon

I am Robert's youngest brother. I have decided to be King, but their are currently bigger problems to attend to.

If I die, Ser Loras is able to perform one kill to attemp to avenge me. Therefore, I know Ser Loras is in the game. However, I do not know who (s)he is and what alignment they are. If Ser Loras dies before I do, nothing happens upon my death.
_______________________________________________________________________
Rereading this morning.

Shat,

Unvote

Quickly analyzing bandwagoning reasons

I have a problem with the immediate unvote. Why do you assume he's telling the truth?

1) Richard, is there a difference in your kill trigger depending on if you are lynched or killed?

I missed 295 where you answered this, my bad, sorry.

That said, Richard, please provide some content not directly related to your claim soon.

Why do you find it scummy that I ensured RichardGHP would not be quicklynched? LOOK WHO HE TURNED OUT TO BE! We also hadn't decided who to raise as Hand yet. I help town a lot and it's scummy. Go figure. I will do this again next time I have the opportunity, despite what others might think.

Do you mean "look who he claimed to be"? Why do

you

assume he's telling the truth?

I believe a double-voter power would better complement someone with a more declaratory style such as Cow or Percy.

I'd be in favor of raising either Percy or Cow to Hand. Both seem pro-town, as well as articulate and well-reasoned in their arguments. There are some others I could support, for the same reasons, but these two in particular.

Why hascow? Do we ignore DrModem's play? Also, weird that both picked out the same Raise candidates.

I'm know I'm going to sound like I'm contradicting what I said to Percy in this post, but I find that L-1 removal scummy because it seems like you're trying to buy RichardGHP some more time to claim and save himself by taking him off L-1. If he's at L-1, keep him there. Now yes, some votes were unwarranted, but he did deserve to have to claim to save his own butt.

I don't like this at all. People should be given the opportunity to claim. Additionally, dana specifically said for Richard to treat it as if he was at L-1. Seems like a pretty reasonable way to handle the situation to me.

I'm lurking because this is my first game with this many people and quite frankly I feel a bit overwhelmed when every time I check in the thread has grown by a page full of Wall'o'text posts.

Your case on CryMeARiver was basically a Wall Of Text, so that makes you kind of hypocritical.

This isn't really hypocrisy. If someone find Walls of Text intimidating to read through, it doesn't mean they can't also produce Walls themselves.

SSBF is scattershot and throwing out FoSes like they're candy. Can anyone tell me if this is common for his meta? I generally find that excessive FoSes (which are simply signifiers and have no actual game meaning) are a bit scummy. Like he's trying to throw everything at the wall to see what sticks.

I'm kind of debating between three places for my vote. Hascow's point about Vengeful is well taken, so I'm not sure whether to believe Richard's claim, and even if I do believe it, whether it's scummy. SSBF is all over the place and I really don't like it, but I think I want some meta corroboration, if anyone can provide. For now, I think I'll

Unvote, Vote: Hayker

. Little content, doesn't seem to be doing any heavy lifting, promises of more thoughts without providing.

[MacavityLock]

When had you ever mentioned me as a candidate for Raising? This is weird and out of the blue.

You were the first person I seriously considered to be raised period, so that was my very first post on suggesting who should be raised.

And you said it as if you had already provided reasons, which you hadn't. So, why me?

@Macavity SSBF's meta is definitely lots of FOS. I can't post to any games, because they are ongoing. It is my understand that we aren't supposed to link to ongoing games, correct? Hopefully my mentioning this is not breaking the rules, if it is, please go easy on me mod, I can't find any rule on page 1 saying not to do this.

Yes, don't do this, but thanks.

Ninja'd

Some of my last post sounds like parroting of Drippereth.

Why call this out?

@danakillsu -

This only says "If he flips scum" (which btw, is pretty much impossible) "you're scum"

Do you mean "look who he claimed to be"? Why do you assume he's telling the truth?

No, I mean who he turned out to be. There's no way he's lying when he claimed whom he claimed without a C-C. Do you doubt his claim?

And how are you so certain that it is

impossible

for him to flip scum? Especially considering you were voting for him. His claim is guaranteed town how?

Agree with xvart. Why do I have reason not to doubt his claim? Why would I expect a counterclaim here even if he was scum? Fake claims in games like are standard practice, and Renly being one of them wouldn't shock me to my core.

I did think it was bad; but since all I was basing my fos off of was one post, why vote someone based off of it? I usually wait until I have more reasoning beyond "I don't like this one possibly insignificant thing." before I vote someone. I'm also more laid back with my vote considering we have plenty of time to reach a decision; plenty of time to post and for scum to slip up in.

Not sure I understand the reason behind being so careful that early in the game.

Need to take a closer look at Kleedrac, but that AtE does look pretty awful.

I'd also like to hear more from Miku that isn't a complete tunnel.

I'm totally down with a

UnRaise, Raise: Percy

Hand-wagon.

[MacavityLock]

I did not want people to accuse me of parroting later on, as I knew I was guilty of parroting some of Drippereth's last post.

Admitting that you were parroting doesn’t make the suspicious nature of it fade away. You’ve simply done the job of anyone who would make the point for them.

SSBF: Scummy, due to apologizing for what is unnecessary to apologize for.
Magna: Scummier, due to latching on to "parroting" without looking at context, attempting an easy dig.

In relation to any parroting comments, DethHydra and SSBF cross-posted, as would be obvious if you looked. Don't like either SSBF or Magna in this exchange.

[MacavityLock]

Magna: Scummier, due to latching on to "parroting" without looking at context, attempting an easy dig.

Hmm I have to ask … did you actually read what I wrote? Here it is for your consumption again –

I did not want people to accuse me of parroting later on,

as I knew I was guilty of parroting some of Drippereth's last post.

Admitting that you were parroting doesn’t make the suspicious nature of it fade away. You’ve simply done the job of anyone who would make the point for them

1. SSBF says he was guilty of parroting (bolded for emphasis). I’m not going to bother to dig up to see what context a player posted in if he himself acknowledges his own play / tell.
2. My statement related solely to his admission and that doing so didn’t clear any possible suspicion.

You assertion that I ‘latched on’ is incorrect. That fact that you label it scummier than someone who specifically admitted to parroting (whether you believe it was or not) is at best opportunistic.

Magna, the part that interested me most from your post was "the suspicious nature of it". Any parroting that occurred was

not

suspicious, and you trying to make out like it was is rather scummy.

Apologies, but I'm going to be V/LA until late Monday night.

I have not had the opportunity to put my thoughts together re: the Kleedrac wagon yet, and likely won't be able to really sit down and have a chance to do this for a week or so. Very sorry about this.

[MacavityLock]

Back from V/LA, catching up now. Do we really not have post numbers or ability to iso?

[MacavityLock]

I do find SSBFs ''parrotgate'' suspicious, but not because parroting is suspicious itself, or more accurately since there was a ninja post, clearly no parroting happened at all. Instead, in his haste to accept 'guilt' for this action, and quickly get out in front of what was not scummy at all he reveals IMO a awareness of his own scumminess i usually see out of scum players-scum often see themselves and partners as scummier than they really look for example.

Yeah, this is pretty much exactly what I meant.

@MacavityLock

: Could you elaborate on why you chose Hayker over SSBF?

One of the biggest reasons that I think that SSBF is scummy is his massive overuse of FoSes. As I said previously, I often don't see the purpose of FoSes, and his wide range read to me like he was just trying to find some case, any case that would stick. However, I also recognize that this could be a difference in playstyle. Some people are FoS-heavy as both scum and town. I wanted meta-based opinions from anyone who could provide before making a decision. Someone (LynchMePlz I believe?) did in fact state that this was part of SSBF's meta. I'd love to hear from other people on the matter, but that at least tempers my suspicion a bit while I continue to do my own digging.

Raivann

...
- thinks it's a good idea to

lynch a townie

just to enable a one-shot vig

You want a slip, just look right here.

Magna, the part that interested me most from your post was "the suspicious nature of it". Any parroting that occurred was not suspicious, and you trying to make out like it was is rather scummy.

Disagree with your conclusion as I said in the quote – it was simply an observation that admitting to a behaviour does not inherently make it less suspicious. Ordinarily parroting is generally considered a not pro-town move. Relative to this circumstance SSBF admitted to the behaviour, regardless of whether he cross-posted or not. Let me ask you this – why would SSBF admit that he was parroting if he wasn’t? I don’t see any logical reason for a town player to admit to something if they didn’t believe they were doing it.

This is really weasel-y. By saying that pointing X out doesn't reduce the suspicion inherent in X, you strongly implied that X was suspicious. However, in this case, X should not have been considered suspicious, so you implying there was amounts to a bad case, and I definitely think that particular post was made in a rather sly manner. As to the question, as far as I remember, SSBF admitted only to the appearance of parroting. He couldn't have parroted, due to the nature of the cross-posting. I think you're trying to squeeze through what little cracks remain before your argument locks you into an obviously incorrect and scummy position, and you're failing.

Unvote. Vote: Magna

with Miku not far behind.

Lack of ability to iso makes it not feasible for me to do a deep Kleedrac read right now. I'm not particularly enamored of the Raiv wagon.

[MacavityLock]

Also:

Raivann

...
- thinks it's a good idea to

lynch a townie

just to enable a one-shot vig

You want a slip, just look right here.

Read my case on Raivann prior to that list, then re-read the list. Raivann had prior stated that he thought regardless of whether Richard was town our not, we should lynch him anyways because it would give us a one-shot vig. It's not a slip, it was a statement of Raivann's beliefs based on his own prior statements.

Yes, "whether Richard was town or not". Raiv didn't say that we should "lynch a townie" to enable the vig. There is a difference.

[MacavityLock]

Yes, I know how, but navigating around using this technique is annoying and time-consuming, but if I have to, I will do it. But it's not going to happen right now.

[MacavityLock]

In other news, my case a few posts back seems to be getting entirely ignored. This makes me a sad panda.

Connection cases bore me on Day 1. Let's get some flips, and then get back to me.

That said, the deal with CMAR unvoting immediately after the claim is suspicious, and you're not the only one who noted that.

I'm not particularly enamored of the Raiv wagon.

MacavityLock, you've played with Raivann before. Do you think this behaviour is characteristic for him?

Played with him only the once, but yeah, his current play does kind of remind me of his Day 3 (?) implosion that got him lynched in AGoT mini. I don't think his play is the most helpful for town, but I think I see some town tells there, and so to my mind there are better suspects.

[MacavityLock]

To respond to JVW:

MacavityLock

has played a good game, except with regards to his interactions with SSBF. Observe:

Although I prefer to raise Macavity Lock instead, you're not a bad choice either.

And then:

I'll be in favor of raising you. Like others said, you have been playing very well. Although I prefer to raise Macavity Lock instead, you're not a bad choice either.

When had you ever mentioned me as a candidate for Raising? This is weird and out of the blue.

Why not leave it to die? ML specifically feels the need to point this out despite the six-page difference and criticise SSBF for it, and to me it just doesn't feel genuine.

Why would I leave it to die, if I'm scumhunting? The way he worded it seemed like it was something that he had already made his feelings known about when he hadn't, and it struck me as odd.

It and ML's subsequent interactions with SSBF feel like distancing and/or bussing to me, especially this one, where he backs off a bit, but says that his biggest reason for suspecing SSBF was his use of FOSes. That's much more emphasis on FOSes than he gives here - a small but troubling inconsistency, given the other stuff that he called out SSBF on and this.

I'm not sure where you're seeing this changing emphasis on this point.

Why did he not mention SSBF's unnecessary apologies in the post where he backs off, given that he called SSBF unequevocally scummy for the apology but only a 'bit' scummy for the FOSes, initially?

I don't understand the question. The FoSes and the parroting apology are two completely separate points.

This point is on the tenuous side, I know, but consider this also: in the post where SSBF analyses those on the Richard wagon, he places Macavity under the 'null' category -

yet he also considered him townie enough to be Raised to Hand!?

Contradiction! Scum! Die!

I like how you put this point against SSBF under my section. Good show.

All this said, JVW's entire case on me is predicated on SSBF-scum, so I'm not really sure if there's any point to this until we have that flip.

I'd be willing to vote Rai, though I really want to lynch SSBF. Percy's a good Hand, too.

Thusly:

Vote: Raivann
Raise: Percy

Was this a mistake? Did you mean to vote SSBF?

I haven't thought about this whole "2 minutes" thing you are harping on. Like, the quick unvote is scummy because...scum are quick to unvote? I'm not sure I get that reasoning, but maybe I haven't thought it all the way through.

It's off to me because it reads like using the claim as an excuse to jump off the wagon, for whatever reason. I would think that a reasonable scumhunting player who had legitimate suspicion of Richard would take a little time to think the claim through.

Question: How many people at this point would be willing to lynch me today?

I don't think you're the lynch today.

I have to agree with Percy that that's shit for promised content.

I'm starting to wonder something about Loras. PLEASE READ THIS: DO NOT CLAIM The question I'm wondering is if Loras knew before Richard's claim that he would get a Venge kill if Renly died, or if Loras either A) Is vanilla, or B) Had other abilities besides this.

Mina/Percy look townish, but I'm extremely dubious of Percy because I know he can look very town while playing scum. I'm going to keep him under very strict watch.

Raise Mina

.

This post reads so off to me. First off, we have a "This is rolefishing, THIS IS NOT ROLEFISHING" paragraph. Then we have him Raising Mina, which is weird to me, because I really can't tell anything different between her play here and the AGoT mini, where she was scumbuddies with Kinetic. So Kinetic, why is Mina townish?

I did finally do my catch-up on Kleedrac, and: I see the scumminess of his lurkiness and the AtE in his last post before getting replaced, but not much more than that. I think there are scummier people out there.

Due to upcoming deadline, it's time to look at viable wagons, and I can get behind a CMAR lynch.

Unvote. Vote: CMAR

. Magna, SSBF, Vezo, and Miku are other people I wouldn't mind lynching.

[MacavityLock]

Unexpected research trip kept me away from the game for a little while, sorry.

After a skim, I don't think that there's anything pressing that I want to add before we go to night. I'm happy with the likely CMAR lynch, made only happier by his "OMG I'M SCREWED" post.

The modicum of support thrown behind the "lynch Richard so that if he's telling the truth, we get 2 lynches" weirds me out. I can partially see the logic behind it, but something is off, and I think I need to read the people who did support it.

If there is anything pressing I'm missing, please let me know. Night will provide good catchup time.

[MacavityLock]

Based on JVW's flip, I pretty much completely believe Richard's claim.

On June 23, between 7:50 AM PDT and 8:03 PM PDT, the following happened:

7:50 AM VC

CryMeARiver (10) - Hasdgfas, MacavityLock, RichardGHP, xvart, Axelrod, MagnaofIllusion, CSL, Raivann, I Doubt It, Vezokpiraka
Raivann (9) - Mikujin, Locke Lamora, julienvonwolfe, Rifka Vivieka, Percy,Thor665, Danakillsu, Super Smash Bros. Fan, Benmage

8:03 PM VC

CryMeARiver (10) - Hasdgfas, MacavityLock, RichardGHP, xvart, Axelrod, MagnaofIllusion, CSL , Raivann, Mikujin, Percy
Raivann (5) - Locke Lamora, julienvonwolfe, Thor665, Super Smash Bros. Fan, Benmage

There were 4 people who jumped off of the Raiv wagon, thus making it substantially less viable a day before deadline: Miku, Rifka, Percy, and dana. There has got to be scum in there.

Rifka - Unvoted at 8:04 am - Moved vote to Richard - Because of conflicting claims. Not sure I understand what was conflicting.
dana - Unvoted at 9:32 am - Moved vote to Budja - No reason included, then moved his vote to Richard. So, why did you shift to Budja right away? Why did you shift to Richard almost immediately after?
Miku - Unvoted at 10:13 am - Moved to CMAR - *
Percy - Unvoted at 4:47 pm - Moved to CMAR - Wants to figure out a good plan to use both Richard's trigger-vig and Raiv's vig.

* - I wanted to include this complete quote from Miku:

In light of this, I'm somewhat hesitant to trust Raivann's claim, but it seems with a vig claim, more people are going to be hesitant to lynch him (at least for today). If Raivann is not our lynch today, he and his claim should certainly be revisited.

unvote

For now, CMAR certainly looks like a good candidate for the D1 lynch. The loads of cases built on him, coupled with his extensive lack of posting (and recent "OH SHIT!" post) certainly do little to convince anyone he's anything but scum. Until CMAR answers some of the questions put forth to him, I have no problems with making him our lynch.

vote CMAR

I think this is a rather damning quote. It's very wishy-washy on Raiv, but unvotes anyway, with reservations for later. Joining the CMAR wagon is a) safe, and b) helps assure the mislynch.

I definitely need to go back and read the others, especially dana as he's receiving some major attention. But based on the above quote, and given my suspicion from yesterday, VOTE: Miku.

In addition, SSBF looks like he has some pretty good Raiv ties: See his HoS on Raiv (Jun 14) and subsequent bussing vote (Jun 22). Most of his post re: Raiv were "Raiv is scummy because he's scummy," without good reasoning. His case on vezo is entirely a case for VI, not a case for scum.

I still have open questions to Kinetic.

[MacavityLock]

What town tells did you see, Mac?

First, let me link you to the AGoT game I was referring to. Specifically, examine the Mar 20-24 time period. In that game, both Raiv and I were town, but I very much thought he was scum. I was wrong. His play in this game reminded me a lot of that Mar 20-24 implosion.

Second, I saw the same thing that DethHydra did in that Raiv's string of 3 posts here was very likely a town tell. In that first post, scum don't generally offer thenselves up for lynch like that. (Unless, of course, he named two scum-buddies in dana and Richard, in which case he just gave up two of his scum-buddies.) The second post is not only a mea culpa, but also is a post declaring his apathy. And the last is just so out of the blue going in a different direction that it's ridiculous. I generally think that scum try to be more careful than that.

On another note, that third post was

Super smash goes out of his way to appear townie which makes him scummy.

FoS:SupersmashBrosfan

which I think strengthens the SSBF case.

----

Upon complete read of Miku, he did go hard at Raiv early on the wagon. Given the way he went about it, in addition to the "thinks it's a good idea to lynch a townie" tell, I could definitely see it as bussing. There are a couple of times where he went out of his way to ensure that the full court press was on Raiv, which I think can be a tell on Day 1 especially. Then he backed off with the claim. I do not agree that a vig claim makes you off-limits, which is why I examined the wagons and vote-counts in the way that I did.

Mina, I don't think it's a couple of arbitrary points in time; it's when Raiv went from being a viable lynch to when he no longer was. When I have some time, I'm going to look closer at a few hours before and after that to be sure I'm not missing anything.

Now all that said, Miku's early stuff would definitely be a harder bus than I'd expect to see from someone early in their Mafia career. Miku, do you have any completed games here? Any on other forums?

@MacavityLock:

Why do you think I was wishy-washy towards Raivann? I had been pushing his wagon hardest of all, and only lessened any pressure on him due to his claim, yet maintained a position that just because someone claims a power role, they should not get a free pass.

And yet you unvoted Raiv, giving him a pass, at least for the day.

I think "wishy-washy" isn't the right phrase for what I mean. What I mean is that it looks to me like you're making the classic "I'm not voting for you, but I'm keeping my eye on you" scum tell.

What makes my vote change anymore "damning" than your own? At least I provided some reasoning behind my vote move beyond "I'm hopping on this wagon unless folks wanna lynch someone else I don't like."

First, I didn't unvote Raiv. Second, of the viable bandwagons at that point, CMAR was the one I favored. I had previously pointed out that I had a problem with the immediate unvote. Also, your reasoning for your CMAR vote was "Look at those cases other people have made", so don't try to make it out like your vote there was any better than mine.

[MacavityLock]

I'm currently participating in two games here, one newbie game and this game. From what I gather, it's bad form to link an active game, so I can't do that for you.

Don't have any other games played elsewhere; a friend told me about the game, pointed me here, and that's my mafia career in a nutshell.

Yeah, don't comment on active games. I'll keep this in mind.

----

In addition, SSBF looks like he has some pretty good Raiv ties: See his HoS on Raiv (Jun 14) and subsequent bussing vote (Jun 22). Most of his post re: Raiv were "Raiv is scummy because he's scummy," without good reasoning.

It tends to make me awhile before I change my vote to someone. As we go further into the game, my reads tends to move around a lot less and I become more satisified with them. I also have done some pushing in Raivann's bandwagon, so I didn't simply vote him the moment I became suspicious of the person.

The timing is not what matters here, and your response is a deflection. What matters is the HoS and that your Raiv vote looks like bussing.

Unvote. Vote: SSBF

----

The general impression that I get of your read here is not that Raivann has done anything pro-town in the slightest, but that he's failing so spectacularly to be careful scum, there's no way he could actually be scum.

Yeah, that's pretty much the way I read him, in addition to the fact (well, my opinion, I guess), that in a previous game he had similarly failed spectacularly as town.

Given your reference back to the first ASOIAF game, I'm curious as to why you didn't ask Mina (or myself, although it looks like you just forgot I was in that game, understandably!) more about her Raivann vote, given that she was in that game too. If you thought it was so similar to his implosion there, why weren't you more interested in her motives here when you knew that she witnessed the same implosion?

Mina's interest in Raiv didn't jump out at me as all that suspicious. Mina was doing other things that I liked, it's not uncommon for people to have different reads, and there was other far more interesting stuff going on yesterday. (And, yeah, I did forget that you were in that game. Sorry.)

----

This game is in serious need of action.

Those not voting for SSBF or Danakillsu need to post and say why they aren't, or make a very convincing argument for why they're voting who they are. Those that aren't voting at all even more so. (Dripp I'm looking at you).

We're over 2 weeks from deadline. Why so twitchy?

[MacavityLock]

We're over 2 weeks from deadline. Why so twitchy?

Well days went by with almost no new content, yet plenty of players feel its fine to sit around not voting or contributing. I see nothing wrong with asking for more activity. Do you have a problem with a more active town? Does a player asking for a more active town bother you? Why or why not?

Well, you're directly asking us to focus on two players and two players only. What if you're scum and know that both of the two are not? Your request for us to ignore all players other than dana and SSBF is suspicious, especially this far from deadline.

[MacavityLock]

Well, you're directly asking us to focus on two players and two players only

. What if you're scum and know that both of the two are not? Your request for us to ignore all players other than dana and SSBF is suspicious, especially this far from deadline.

But I'm not doing that at all.

Those not voting for SSBF or Danakillsu

need to post and say why they aren't, or make a very convincing argument for why they're voting who they are

.

I'm not saying anyone should focus on those two. I specifically said if they are voting someone else they make a very convincing argument for there vote.

I picked those two because they have the biggest wagons a week into the day. I'm not saying we can't discuss something else, I'm just saying if we are gonna discuss others its time for people to make those cases. I also think the participation level needs to increase.

It seems strange to me that you object so much to my request, and that you claim I said we had to vote for those two, when I clearly did not say that.

No, you did not directly say that. But the "very convincing argument" is all about bullying people into getting onto one of those two wagons. And we are not at that point in the Day yet.

[MacavityLock]

Sorry, 4th weekend messed me up quite good, and I need to catch up.

Bullying? Are you joking? I'm telling people who aren't voting that they should use there vote. I'm asking for more participation, and I'm saying that if they have a logical reason to be on a wagon other than the two obv scum that they present a case to us so we can evaluate it.

Let me paraphrase what you said: "Get on one of these two wagons or explain why you're not." That's trying to push people on to one of those two wagons, and it doesn't sit well with me.

What does "we're not at that point in the day yet" even mean? At what point in the day is it no longer acceptable for people to be not voting? Seems to me like 1 week in is pretty late to be holding on to your vote. Please inform me when it's acceptable for me to ask non-voters to please use there votes. Cause I'll do it then. I see nothing wrong with my asking for participation, or the way in which I asked for it. SSBF and dana are obv scum. If people aren't voting them, then I say they should tell us why. If they have a better candidate, then I say now is the time to provide it.

3 things here:
1) There's no such thing as obv-scum unless caught by role info or a scum claim. (That is, unless you're scum-buddies with someone.)
2) I've withheld a vote as town for a goodly while. In fact, a large amount of discussion in the predecessor AGoT game centered around me having withheld voting for a while, and yes, I flipped town. Not voting is not a scumtell.
3) The "point in the day" I'm talking about is the point at which deadline is approaching and people need to get aboard some wagon to ensure a lynch. "Get on one of these two wagons" is totally reasonable at that point. A week and a half before deadline, that is entirely unnecessary.

Also, ML's attack on LynchMePls feels contrived. I read LMP's comments on the SSBF/dana slots as encouraging attention on the two slots, not dissuading attention from others.

Aren't those two the exact same thing?

----

I like dana's answer, but now I think about it, he could be a scum jailor.

The only way to find out if he's telling the truth is to lynch him, tbh.

UNVOTE; VOTE: danakillsu

Blech, blech, blech. Horrendous.

Ok, I have a proposal then.

We kill dana today, you can have at me tomorrow.

But you will still be wrong.

Also, I stabbed dana.

People who propose this kind of thing probably know more than they should.

----

@MacavityLock: since you asked me, do you

disagree

that dana and SSBF are VIs? As I mentioned before, dana's play was extremely VI-ish and illogical in the one game I've played with him on this site. I have less experience with SSBF, but I know he's mentioned in a MD thread that he's never been nightkilled. Of course, I don't think "VI" and "scum" are mutually exclusive. It does mean that weak arguments and sloppy play alone aren't enough for me to vote for them.

Sorry, I may have completely lost track of this in my absence, but what is this referring to? I don't remember asking you anything about VIs. To answer your question though, dana seems like much more of a VI than SSBF does, at least in this game. I have limited experience with both: less than 1 game day with dana (he replaced into a game in which I was NK'ed N1), none with SSBF.

----

dana is clearly scum.
the only way CSL got wounded is because people from dana's scum team stabbed him. This just proves that dana is scum.

What? How does this make any sense?

----

Anything else to address as I continue to catch up?

[MacavityLock]

@MacavityLock

:

Also, ML's attack on LynchMePls feels contrived. I read LMP's comments on the SSBF/dana slots as encouraging attention on the two slots, not dissuading attention from others.

Aren't those two the exact same thing?

...No?
"Hey, you should read

A Song of Ice and Fire

!" ≠ "Hey, you shouldn't ever read

The Twilight Saga

!"

Your metaphors are broken. Here's how to fix it: "You must read some fantasy series right now. If you aren't reading either Song of Ice and Fire or Wheel of Time, you must explain why not." In this situation, how is encouraging focus on two not the same as discouraging focus everywhere else?

----

Is it just me, or is vezo at this point obv-Joffery from a Lannister-type scum group or Stannis from a Melisandre-type scum group? Claims "next in line to throne", then retracts the following day with a character so far from next in line, it's laughable. As much as I was reading vezo as super VI, this whole claim-and-retract business makes me think that a scum buddy slapped him down overnight and he got stuck with a crappy fake claim.

Unvote. Vote: vezo.

[MacavityLock]

Posting due to prod. Sorry, will post content later today/early tomorrow.

[MacavityLock]

A few quick hits on recent doings as I continue to catch up:

My Read: I read town on Mackavity earlier, but he's gotten a lot scummier with avoiding the Raivann wagon and switching from a good SSBF case to vezo.

I've already said my piece on the Raiv wagon and why I wasn't on it. As for SSBF vs vezo, I definitely think there's a good SSBF case, but I think vezo's "next in line" stuff in conjunction with the Meera claim is a legitimate fake claim slip.

Vezo is for vigging. There is 0 chance vezo makes it to end game. Vezo is CLEARLY not today's lynch. I honestly can't think of a single worst place for your vote right now.

Hasn't there been some discussion that we might no longer have vigging powers left in the game? No one countered Raiv's Beric claim, and the Assassin is dead. So, why are you trusting to a maybe non-existent vig?

Excuse me? Why didn't you hammer dana, since he's the closest to a lynch, and deadline is practically BREATHING DOWN OUR NECKS?!?

If dana is scum, I'd keep a close eye on you, Mina.

Since when is 30 hours to deadline "breathing down our necks"? Don't try to implicate Mina here. It's pretty obvious that someone is going to get lynched today, and pretending that Mina's failure to vote dana would somehow prevent that is super-scummy.

[MacavityLock]

I know if I was a vig, and someone else claimed vig I wouldn’t CC but rather see to their demise.

Yes, this is a good point. Still, I don't know that we can chalk this kill up to the vig or some other scum group.

Since when is 30 hours to deadline "breathing down our necks"?

Since days last weeks...I'd say 30 hours is a time crunch and that theres no time for a wagon switch. Noones even attempting to be persuasive enough. Everyones heard people's pieces on Vezo, SSBF, Dana, and CSL...and look where the votes are. Noone promoting the alternative lynches is going out of their way to pick at peoples cases/votes, so nothings going to change. Dana will hang.

That's kind of my point though. CSL is trying to implicate Mina for something that is almost certain to not happen. It feels like he's trying to set her up for something, which is why it's so scummy. Notice also the CSL->Mina OMGUS there.

[MacavityLock]

Obviously, I'm going to have a lot to say about this game soon, but while I write up my notes, I want to say great job to the mods, and thanks. It was a well run and fun game with lots of intricacies. VP, I'm happy to release our hydra QT. Rest of the Lannisters, how do you feel about releasing that QT?

[MacavityLock]

I am disappointed in the players of MoI and ML but

I wont seek site punishment

. I disagree with the mod view but ill leave it to their discretion ,I certainly wouldn't feel remorse tho if something was done.

Are you f'ing kidding me? A joint win is still a win in my book. And while it may not be as sweet as if we had won on our own, I'll take that as my punishment for bad scumhunting on Day 6, when we went CSL over Magna.

[MacavityLock]

Mac hydra QT
Baltar, thanks for stepping in when I had my long vacation, and for being a great hydra partner to work with.

Can someone post the dead thread?

[MacavityLock]

What you're suggesting is that we should have both had to kill one another and thus give the town a victory. That makes no sense in terms of playing to your win condition.

Also,

Can someone post the dead thread?

[MacavityLock]

OK, having read the dead thread, there are a few things I'd like to address as regards the Day 6, Night 6, Day 7 situation. Interesting fact: Everyone who was dead knew (mod-confirmed) that Magna and I were Greyjoy and Lanny scum respectively. We did not. That plays a very important role in my decision making.

At the start of Day 6, both VP and I were pretty sure that Magna was Greyjoy, but we weren't sure. Our path to victory was as follows: Lynch the Greyjoy, get the game to some endgame that included diddin, and try to get a diddin lynch. We knew that this would be hard, given that both Richard and Thor were pretty much solid on their diddin-town reads, but this was our hope.

Of course, the day started out against us, and we had to defend. I realized the thing with Magna and CSL having to vote for each other by pure logic of guaranteed scum-ness, and that's when things went wonky. I

really

think that it makes no sense for the townie in that situation to vote for me. He's looking at a 100% guaranteed scum, and me vs. diddin. Even if he thinks that the Mac hydra is 95% likely scum, the Greyjoy is the

correct

person to be voting. So, the fact that CSL was going against it, and did so twice!, while Magna did not, made VP and me rethink everything. That connections post was legitimate; I became convinced over my re-read that CSL was Greyjoy.

One other thing I looked at (and obviously couldn't bring up to town) was at Magna's breadcrumb. In the Lanny QT, we almost immediately shared fakeclaims, and treated them as a pool to draw from. I figured that there was a good chance that the Greyjoys did too. In which case, it wouldn't make a ton of sense to lock yourself into one (Hodor) that early. So, I looked real hard for other breadcrumbs like that, and couldn't find any. By the end of Day 6, VP and I were almost positive that CSL was Greyjoy.

Once he flipped town, we were in a bind. I actually looked at all of the various options, examining what would happen in any given pair of kills scenario. Obviously, we weren't going to kill diddin. I was also almost positive that Magna wasn't going to kill either diddin or us. Not realizing that Magna actually had incriminating evidence on us, we assumed that he would leave diddin and us alone, because he couldn't be the last scum left with two or three townies; he would have lost immediately. So, examining the other options, were were left with a pretty shitty situation. Killing Magna either puts us into a pretty much immediate loss (diddin, Richard, us), or a hard last day (diddin, Thor, us), and we can't know which. Killing Richard puts us in kingmaker situations (diddin, Magna, us, maybe plus Thor). Thor, you weren't on our list simply because you were slightly friendlier to us than Richard was.

Then I had the idea for a No Kill. Contrary to what VP was saying, I actually thought that we could convince a 4 person kingmaker to vote off obv-Greyjoy Magna and give us the win. Again, what we were thinking was that even if there was only a slight chance that diddin was scum, we weren't confirmed scum, while Magna was. If we fail to lynch Magna, we go No Lynch to Prisoner's Dilemma. Trying to lynch obv-scum Magna was our path to victory.

What we didn't consider was that Magna had evidence against us and would out us at the start of the day. At that point, I don't think there's any choice but to go for the shared win/draw/whatever you want to call it.

As for "integrity of the game", please stop. It all comes down to each person's relative value of win vs shared win/draw vs loss. In my opinion, the difference between a win and a draw was much less than the difference between a draw and a loss. The end. Maybe in your opinion, a draw is worth the exact same as a loss, but that's your opinion. I'm pleased with the outcome, and yes, I too would have been pretty bitter had Magna defected. But honestly, I would've been okay with it. It's only a game. (Then again, if Magna had defected, and we ever ended up in a PD together again, I would defect so fast, it would make your head spin.)

[MacavityLock]

Ninja'd. Sorry Seacore. Any additional discussion will go to proper thread.

[MacavityLock]

Post game notes

I guess I don't need to say much more than what I already said about end game. I'm happy I got there, and I'm pleased with the outcome. And I'm sorry if other people are disappointed by it.

As for Day 5, Mina's take (at one point of the Day) was exactly right. I had to kill Miku the night before, because he could just Watch and out me if I killed Locke first. (And yes, we realized that he was a Watcher.) I actually had this whole thing planned just in case Locke did survive and name-cop me: If you take a look at Mac-hydra's iso 34, you'll see a MILLER breadcrumb.

M

y gut was suggesting that Axelrod needed a closer look too.

I

definitely think there's something to that.

L

ook at his interactions with Percy and Raivann.

L

ook at his iso 13, where he claims that he wasn't a fan of Deer.

E

xcept he never voiced that in earlier posts, and it's not like he ever voted for Raiv.

R

eally like iso 20, where he reminds Raiv to claim, followed up by poo-pooing the vig claim in iso 22.

The plan was, if called out by Locke, to immediately claim Tyrion and say that we didn't realize that we were a miller until finding out that the cop in the game was actually a name-cop. I even figured that my big finger-point of trying to Raise myself as Hand of the King on Day 1 would act as an accidental breadcrumb. I doubt we would've survived it, but it's worth having the out just in case.

Once hascow came out with his vote, I was pretty sure that he'd Tracked me, since we did lose our cop, and the Watcher died too. (Other possibilities were regular cop or gunsmith-like, but I figured there was no way out of those, so just focus on what you can.) So, I cobbled together some things from a previous idea that I'd had (I think I mentioned Catelyn as a Brienne-Motivator at one point in the Lanny QT) and made the Mason Recruiter version. I knew it was ridiculously risky, and that N3 was the pitfall night. During N3, the only 3 pretty cleared townies whose names weren't in the open yet were hascow, Mina, and Benmage. And I had

killed

Benmage that night too. So, it was a toss-up, and I guessed wrong. The Meli-scum group breadcrumb is kind of funny. Our original fake claim was Maester Pylos, which we were considering spinning into a Doc. Meli-scum was my Pylos breadcrumb, given his (minor) role in the books [avoiding spoilers]. I only realized later that I could use it as a Catelyn breadcrumb too.

The rest was just needling and cajoling. I never expected to survive the Day, and everything after making people start to get nervous about lynching us was icing on the cake. At no point during that Day did I expect to survive, much less win/not lose. As I said in the hydra QT, any frustration or anger I was portraying in thread was a lie; I was loving every second of it. Mina, apparently I live to make you nervous, whether you're scum and think I'm SK, or this. Please please don't quit even if you are exhausted after this game; I really do enjoy playing with/against you. Also, I loved the fake claim request, some of the most fun I've ever had in a game was coming up with it.

I do feel bad about one post in this game, and that's the post where we switched our vote over to Unsight. I basically used the fact that we were a hydra as a strategic option, and I don't know if that's particularly fair. I'm sorry. But hey, if you want any proof that we were following the tenet of Playing to Win, it's right there.

Thanks again to Baltar for hydra'ing with me. I knew at the start of the game that I'd have the vacation, but I didn't know if I'd survive until then. He stepped right in and played a great game in my absense. And once we were both around and active, working with him was great. Any internal strife you saw in thread was manufactured as well. We agreed on most things, and were able to compromise for the rest.

Thanks to my scumbuddies. I've got to say xvart, seeing Budja's suicide was one of the funnier things I've ever seen in a game.

And thanks again to the mods! You put together a great game, and I really enjoyed it, as much as I find Large games a bit oppresive. The flavor was so well done, and the events really added interesting angles. I think you could argue a lot of different ways about balance. Given the amount of power the town had, I definitely felt under-powered. Also, Watcher vs RB as a scum role is an interesting debate. The Watcher might be less powerful, but it's a much more townie power. Nine scum is a lot, but then there are cross-kills. All told, I'd say balance was fine. The events especially weren't particularly pro- or anti-town, which I loved. Great job. I don't know if I can handle another complicated Large theme for ASoS, but I'll keep my eye out for it!

[MacavityLock]

ML, on your claim. While it did wonders to the people in game..it was mind bottling to watch form the side line. I like MoI can be referenced in Supernatural to see my opinion on it. I'd be LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH no questions asked. But even so...it was a lot to swallow.

A questionable role claim. Tracked to a person wound up dead. A requirement to have been rb'd the night before.

A lot of maybes. Without my bias lynch a tracked person to a dead body no questions asked, thats a lot of "ifs" to accept. Sometimes the simplest answer is right. Regardless kudos for skating by with those in game.

Yeah, I knew it was going to be risky coming out of the gate. But I also knew that I wanted to bring out my claim right away to defray suspicion, and come up with something plausible and reasonable. Give me a better claim that I could have made under those circumstances.

[MacavityLock]

@Mac: If I came out upon Day 5 starting and went "Hey guys, we should massclaim", do you think you would have claimed the same way you did?

Hells no. You almost guaranteed would have caught me had you gotten a massclaim to happen before calling me out. Catelyn-Brienne Finder was a claim born of desperation. Sorry.

[MacavityLock]

Hider wouldn't have worked. I targeted Miku, who died that night (because, you know, I killed him). If I'm a Hider, I die if my chosen target dies, so I should have been dead.

[MacavityLock]

Some of my favorite posts from the game:

There were 4 people who jumped off of the Raiv wagon, thus making it substantially less viable a day before deadline: Miku, Rifka, Percy, and dana. There has got to be scum in there.

Hey look, early Day 2 I caught two Greyjoys! (And a Lannister!)

Yes, my fake claim is Innocent Aligned with the Town win condition as per the mod's first post.

Hee hee. I think I may have to sig this.

Smart players get scum role PMs too, damn it!

May have to sig this too.

Oh, by the way, if you're pretty certain about CSL-not-scum, your choice for a lynch is obvious: Magna is the only other player remaining who could be Greyjoy.

Oh, holy crap. CSL, this goes for you too. If you're not scum, why aren't you voting for Magna, the only possible Greyjoy remaining? Why are you Lannister hunting? Is it because you are in fact Greyjoy?

Pulled this out of my ass to avoid the noose on Day 6.

[MacavityLock]

I agree that you didn't have as much of a choice as it appeared from the sidelines. We intentionally boxed you and CSL in a 1v1 because 1) it got attention off of us and 2) if either of you went elsewhere, it made you look MORE like scum. Ironically, we fooled ourselves with our own plan. We were both all but certain you were the last Greyjoy before we boxed the two of you, but then when CSL defected and started looking toward us it made us doubt our read on you because you stayed the course, which is actually what a townie would logically do in that situation. Fooled by our own trickery.

Actually, it looks like we were lucky that we got fooled. Had we stuck with our Magna-Greyjoy read, he totally would have outed us as Lanny before he got lynched. So, thanks CSL?

[MacavityLock]

Oh, LMP, didn't get a chance to say, you did play very well, especially for someone new. I was impressed, and am even more so now that I got a chance to read the Kingsguard thread. We killed you for a reason :}

[MacavityLock]

In considering it, I'm quite glad that we didn't. Seeing that they were directing a kill to dana, we might have been forced to fight against that, or something. Our first 2 kills were originally directed at Kingsguard members, so we might have changed that so as not to tip our presence. All in all, I think it would have drastically changed the game, and I don't think to our benefit.

Interestingly, each scum team got a boost from town during N1. The Greyjoys got access to the Kingsguard, while we got Budja's Assassin kill.

[MacavityLock]

I so picked Mac and Rai day one. I also picked SSBF as antitown. So yes, my theory was bullshit and I was wrong about Dripp but bugger it, damn it all to hell, fuck fuck fuck fuckity fuck!

Oh, right, I forgot about your "one of every team" scum team. Sorry we had to kill you for it :}

You know, I'd be interested in hearing if any unspoiled spectators were swayed by Mac's pleas at any point, or if they were banging their heads against the wall in disgust the whole time.

I'd be interested to hear this too.

Another fun Day 1 catch:

SSBF: Scummy, due to apologizing for what is unnecessary to apologize for.
Magna: Scummier, due to latching on to "parroting" without looking at context, attempting an easy dig.

----

Self-serving note: Anyone who wants to show support for me getting the awesome title "Impin' Ain't Easy" should go to the Title Fairy thread :}

[MacavityLock]

Well, this game actually reminded me how much I enjoyed those books, and incited me to re-read ASoS (and am currently in the middle of AFfC).

Arya and Tyrion have always been my favorite characters, and they didn't disappoint in ASoS. (Having played Tyrion only makes me like him more :} ) I think two of my favorite scenes are the Red Wedding from Arya's perspective, and Tywin's last sit on his "throne". Also, the fight between Beric and Sandor is pretty epic.

Other characters who I like: Lady Olenna is an awesome scheming old crone. Donal Noye kicks much ass below the Wall, though I also have a soft spot for Dolorous Edd. Dany does get more interesting in this book than she was in the previous, but she's still too removed from the action to be much more than a side trip. Her sections make me like Barristan Selmy quite a bit though. Littlefinger's plan revealed at the end just shows how much of a genius creepy bastard he truly is. And I guess Davos is pretty cool too, all honorable and whatnot.

ASoS is definitely my favorite of the books thus far. It's just so... plotty.