Mini 989 - Disgaea Mafia Episode 2 (Game Over!)
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Iecerint Survivor
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@ KTB, he quoted something that Kise said and then voted Kise. It doesn't take someone with ++genius to infer that the content in said quote was the basis of the vote. Your implicit argument that it does doesn't make much sense to me.
I am sympathetic to the Kise wagon, but it seems to be doing just fine without me.-
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@ TBM, I did; I think KTB is scummy for the same reason as Kise. But the two players' behavior is such that their scumminess isn't really mutually exclusive, anyway, so ye know.
@ Magna, nah -- I like the Kise wagon (almost) as much as anyone can like a wagon on page 4 (see above), but I don't think there's anything to be gained from me joining a wagon that already has 4 people or whatever on page 4 without hearing more from Kise. His implicit 2SCUM4SCUM defense wasn't doing much for me til iso 6, though.-
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@ TBM: I don't understand your implicit incredulity.
@ KTB: People have already asked that, and I've already addressed it. Namely:
It's the same as Kise's because Kise is scummy for whining about the game not going on, which doesn't jive with behavior that perpetuates something other than the game going on.Iec wrote:I perceived the same thing on KTB's part. He recognizes enough about your vote to call it real, but not enough to recognize why it's real. Not to mention that the rationale for your vote, given that it's real, is pretty self-evident.-
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His post was not just a vote. It contained an explanation in the form of a quotation. Is not the first time I have indicated as much.
The parallel is that both are cases where there's a disconnect between what people say about things and what their actions imply about them ("I want the game to start + I'm not taking action to make the game start" and "Is that vote real I cannot tell, even though the fact that I would frame a question like this around it makes it clear that I'm not legitimately clueless").-
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^ His iso 6 is probably a step in the right direction. Have already indicated as much.-
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I totally hadn't noticed Foobert's post, or even his existence. He's clearly aping you there. It doesn't affect that the circumstances of your post are on the suspicious side of things, though (e.g. because of the chronology).
His circumstance is actually slightly odder than yours because he's aping what was already a perspective that required kinda careless reading IMO, so there are like (n+1) checkpoints for not reaching that kind of conclusion (i.e. more suspension of disbelief required, etc). So it's the kind of move more likely to result from reading the crowd than from careful scumhunting.
I would like more content from foobert before I elaborate too much on the subject.-
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Back!
Foobert was totally off my radar (and a non-entity in-game) at the time. I was focused elsewhere. That's the only reason I can give for the apparent discrepancy.
If I were scum, I would have made up a difference between KTB and Foobert rather than give an answer that reflects inconsistently of me as such. [/self-meta]
However, I think KTB's posts immediately following my post is relatively protown.
Unvote; Vote: Magna. His post seems fake.
Will post more when I've gotten use to the ugly colors.-
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@ Magna, I obviously didn't forget the WIFOM stuff (at least not insofar as you mean it); I explicitly indicated it within the bit that you quoted. Your implication that I ignored WIFOM implications shows poor attention to detail at best.
Your post was awful because it basically consisted of aping other people and claiming incredulity toward my original KTB read in a way that doesn't make sense. Restated, my original argument was that implying knowledge while explicitly denying it is scummy, because a town person would never be in that circumstance. This is an extremely intuitive argument IMO. Accepting that you legitimately didn't understand it and thought I was making shit up is difficult for me to believe, so you being scum is parsimonious. It's the same as my original perception of KTB's post.
@ UK, while you already indicated that you were looking for a specific type of answer implicitly different from the one I already gave and your "DO NOT LIKE" explanation consequently follows logically, I don't understand your implicit premise that changing my story to something else would make me MORE likely to be town. Since I've already failed your "test," could you indicate what you were thinking you might see, so that I can evaluate whether you're just kind of making it up?-
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Or you could specify "secret scumtell" if it's what I think it is. (In which case, you are kind of solipsistic.)-
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Just "solipsistic"?
By which I meant that UK appeared to be attributing disproportionate weight to my attitude toward her to interpret my actions given that she is town (because as scum it's total BS, anyway, probably) and that I know where she's coming from (because if I'm wrong about where she's coming from, my interpretation of how she got there would be unlikely to be accurate).
I want to see what she comes up with, since in the latter case, investing energy into it is worthless.-
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You said earlier that there was a specific explanation for my behavior that you would accept, because you've found yourself in such a position as town, or something like that. Since that doesn't appear to have factored into your analysis given your most recent post, what were you referring to?
(I always self-meta. Namely, I did it with you in Linked Role Chaos v2.0 D1. [/self-meta])-
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So, what would have been the "intent" in not noticing something? Like, "I was focused elsewhere"?-
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1A. Yeah, but it's nonetheless a confirmed-town instance of me claiming that I always/often self-meta as town. Unless I was lying as town, you can assume that that much is probably accurate. That game's instance came to mind because I used almost the very same words as in this game.
1B. I can think of other times when I've used self-meta, too, but the other instance that really comes to mind is ongoing.
2. Fair enough.-
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It makes it atworsta null tell.* (That, or I am self-deluded about my playstyle.) Because if it were worse than a null tell, I'd have been deliberately misleading as town. Agreed @ the other though.-
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You are a frustrating lady at best. That is all.-
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WELL INTRODUCE YOUR OWN ARGUMENT, THEN, PARTY-POOPER.
@ TBM.-
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I already said when I changed my mind. I'm glad he is our new favorite player, though.-
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Jarti gained scumpoints with the last post. Townies somewhat irrationally cling to their prior perceptions of events. He didn't. TownJarti, who'd been pushing KTB with me for awhile, would've tried to persuade me that I was wrong about KTB, because that's what town wagon-mates do. Instead, he tries to argue that it is scummy for me to think KTB is town for unvoting me after I show my thought process.
FoS: Jarti.
Not sure if I prefer Jarti or Magna. Reread necessary before I evaluate this too much. And I have an exam Tuesday, so it may take awhile. Just sayin.-
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I keep thinking that Jarti's avatar is Edward from FFIV.-
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Are you saying that my FoS for you is OMGUS, or are you lampshading that your vote for me is OMGUS?
Also, do you mean "complementary"?-
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Oh. You typo'd. I thought "note respond" was because you changed your mind about what verb to use and forgot to erase the first.-
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1. KTB, I voted you for a reason categorically different from why I suspect Magna (or Jarti). I'm more confident in the latter reads than the one on you. If you think this creates a contradiction, please elucidate it for me.
2. DTM, yeah, I didn't notice foobert's post. I may've glossed over people whining about it for precisely that reason. I don't blame you for finding it suspicious, though.
3. I don't under your little note to me on (8). Yes, Jarti's post is inconsistent with the townie mentality most players exhibit. No, this doesn't "confirm" me to him, which seems like bullshit, because why would it be expected to? And uh, do you have a typo when you list "townie" the second time? Assuming that there IS a typo -- my claim is certainly NOT that Jarti is tunneling. Hell, he only posted against me once. To put it a different way, my claim is that townies approach the game a certain way ("coalition-building," you could call it), and his post departs from that. Are some players different? Sure. But I think the culture of the site has become more and more like that since I've been here.
3. KTB "distanced" from Iecwagon ages ago. Your chronology implies that you didn't notice.-
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Typo in my last -- should be "I don't understand."
@ Nacho, I disagree that it defeats the purpose of meta. D1 especially, no one has much to go on. If someone attacks me for a reason that I think doesn't make sense specifically to me (like, I reflect on someone's reasoning and legitimately don't think I would do that as scum), I think a meta defense is the best that can be hoped for. And I'm lampshading the self-meta for your benefit, anyway.
I do understand that some players take "self-meta" as a scumtell, and it's a fair designation, since some players are more likely to self-meta when they're scum playing against their meta. But I self-meta all the time, so self-meta is not a valid scumtell for me. [/self-meta]
METAMETAMETA.
I also don't blame you for inferring a KTB-Iec connection, because that kind of lame early-game distancing is honestly scumIec by the book. [/self-meta] It just happens to be wrong this time. I'll go back and make a post for you about why I changed my mind on KTB in a bit.-
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(BTW -- Said "I don't understand" can be inferred to be a request for elucidation.)-
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OK, so, KTB's post right after mine gives him townpoints basically because it is not a crap case. That is sort of a lame way to put it, but it's true. He establishes the extent to which I'd missed foobert, but he also holds some stuff back to make it clear that he's not just trying to win points by showing off how workmanlike he is. The only lame part, upon reread, is where he says I "fencesit on the Kise wagon even thoughsympathize with it" which is sorta not accurate IMO.
Contrast that with Magna's response, which is basically to join the wagon (without voting; he stays on Kise and remains there) while making it very clear that he has little idea of why it exists. First post, it seems like he thinks I'm scummy for being wrong about Kise and KTB not doing the same thing (which I still don't understand even upon rereading). Then he implies that my asking someone whether KTB is "a misunderstood sweetie or what" is a false dichotomy, which is totally bogus because a) the dichotomy is "X union (1-X)", so it's not false, but more importantly b) the tone is CLEARLY jokey -- "mountains out of molehills," etc.
Then foobert indicates why I'm *actually* being called scummy, which is tunneling on KTB and missing foobert's posts. foobert says I'm not scummy etc. Magna responds by repeating his weirdness about Kise and KTB being totally different. His diction is also chosen to imply that lots of people are whining about that, whereas it's really just him. Then he repeats the "wouldn't vote for Kise thing" as an afterthought, which, ye know, fair enough.
(Just occurred to me -- I probably wouldn't bother with KTB distancing as scum if I already had Kise to wagon. Just sayin. [yeahyeah, /self-meta])
So,tl;dr
KTB made a good case on me.
Magna made a crap case on me that blended bad stolen ideas from others and his own attempts at independent contributions. (Then he disappeared, but ye know.)
So that's the reason for the KTB->Magna switch.-
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You'll be happy to hear I'm used to the background now.
Still need post numbers, though.-
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Huh? Why do you interpret it implies a KTB/Magma connection?
Also, Adell is dead in this game.-
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I hope Rozalin is the SK. I was let down the Vyers wasn't last time.-
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I don't think it's accurate because I gave a specific reason for not voting. If I'd just said "Hmm, looks good. What am I to do!" that would be fencesitting. But this is a really minor point, which is why I gave Magna "fair enough" when I talk about him cross-supplying the same argument.-
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Hmm. Maybe. "Adell's Dad" is much more likely to be the adoptive one (who has no name apart from that) than the biological one (who is Masked Man or Shura most of the game).
On the other hand, the 3 obvious scum, if dram was really follow-canon about it (he was in DG1), is FakeZenon, biodad, biomom. So maybe it's at least worth mentioning.
The part that I found more suspicious tbh is that you claimed your role result out of nowhere. O.o-
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Oh, wow. I'd forgotten about that alternate ending part of flavorcase. That is indeed scummy.-
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1. To the extent that that statement is WIFOM, it's WIFOM because I could be scum intentionally going against my meta. I indicate the point that it is self-meta with [/self-meta].
2. OK, you're going to have to do better than "but it's not," because I don't follow.
3A. You weren't "exploring" Kise. You were voting him and "exploring" me. This is a move I personally employ as scum, so I noticed it. I'm especially likely to vote a scumbuddy and attack a townie (see Fables Grimmafia for what I'm talking about).
3B. See above.
4. Um, no, that's not even remotely what I said. I said "do you think he's town in spite of what I've noticed (misunderstood sweetie), or something else (what)?". That includes all possibilities. You could argue that I'm somehow inappropriately highlighting the first one, but that'd still be wrong, because the point of the question was to interpret TBM's (I think?) attitude toward KTB up to that point. He seemed a little Kise-biased, so I was trying to figure out why.-
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1. Well, yeah, there's WIFOM. That is DIFFERENT from what you claimed. You claimed that I slyly introduced WIFOM into the discussion, which is OBVIOUSLY false, because I made it VERY CLEAR that I was introducing it.
The information is not really quite null, because it's verifiable and people don't change as much as they pretend they do.
2. He didn't question his reasoning. He asked if the vote was real. IIRC.
Also, I have never used the term "CD," and never will because it is a disgusting perversion of the ACTUAL definition of the term.
3. Uh, well, yeah, it is within your "rights" to do something scummy, whether because you're scum or because it's your playstyle. Your "playstyle" in this regard is something I do a lot when I'm scum. So I think it's scummy.
Specifically, it's scummy because it trips up lazy isoers or players who scumhunt by VC analysis.-
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He wants you to claim whether you're demon daddy or human daddy.-
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See, I could see TBM as scum just because the Kise-lynching is more hardcore than what I saw last game; it's like ABR-tier. And I could see Adell's Dad as a fakeclaim for Shura, too.
But I couldn't see DTM getting "Adell's Dad" on Shura after a rolecop at all (unless Shura were an omni-GF, which implies that the woman isn't in the game, which is kinda sexist, etc).
So, I think TBM is town unless he's scum with DTM hoping to play on the kind of /outguess Kise is already putting forward after TBM flips. DTM would probably also have to have some kind of weak rolecop, too.
So, given a handful of flavor assumptions, the circumstances where TBM are scum are very specific and unlikely to be in play as I see them.-
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So, the obvious reason to vote Kise based on that is that Kise was whining about the game not going ("PM me when the jokes are over"). The disconnect is that if he really wanted to get to scumhunting and all that, he could do it himself. He's either scum that doesn't want to scumhunt and is trying to get points for calling out people for being lazy, or he is himself just lazy.
My guess is that the same post ("PM me when the jokes are over") is the bit people interpret as Kise not liking RVS ("the jokes").-
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It's not wishy-washy at all. Kise made a flavor argument about TBM being scum; I countered it arguing that it wasn't probable on flavor grounds (i.e. the same grounds that were the basis of Kise's case).
Why do you not like my flavor focus while not really bothering with the same thing from Kise?-
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I've called 2 players town IIRC: KTB and TBM. The first is fine because I changed my opinion due to new information. The second is fine because you attacked him for a bad reason. Then you escalated it when people called you out on it, which I mean. I do that, too (i.e. escalating when people call me out for doing something scummy e.g. self-meta), because I'm kinda snotty sometimes. But your flavor stuff just got weaker as you went along.
Also, the fact that you've attacked me for calling TBM town is itself a slip. Calling someone town is fine if people already publicly think they're scum, cuz the only reason not to call people town is that it identifies a good NK target (doc/track WIFOM notwithstanding). The fact that you don't think TBM is in that category implies that you haven't mentally placed him there, which is consistent with you being scum, because you haven't counted your own case.
Players I think may be scum: Kise, Jarti, Magma.
Caveat is that DTM is probably scum if TBM is. I doubt it, though.-
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Dude, that is INCREDIBLY selective bolding. Yes, your initial flavor speculation was better than your later ones. Then it got worse (alternate ending spec, not factoring in the context of DTM's claimed rolecop).
Let me rebold that second quote for you:
This is a bit nuanced, but it is NOT fencesitting.Iecerint wrote:See, I could see TBM as scum just because the Kise-lynching is more hardcore than what I saw last game; it's like ABR-tier. And I could see Adell's Dad as a fakeclaim for Shura, too.
But I couldn't see DTM getting "Adell's Dad" on Shura after a rolecop at all (unless Shura were an omni-GF, which implies that the woman isn't in the game, which is kinda sexist, etc).
So, I think TBM is town unless he's scum with DTM hoping to play on the kind of /outguess Kise is already putting forward after TBM flips. DTM would probably also have to have some kind of weak rolecop, too.
So, given a handful of flavor assumptions, the circumstances where TBM are scum are very specific and unlikely to be in play as I see them.
The first bit before the semicolon in the second post that you bolded I agree with, but I don't think you've mentioned that at all. (Or the other part you bolded, either?) It's new AFAIK.-
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^ Dude, it was page 2. You work with what you've got and revise as necessary. Or that's how I do it. I guess your ranking system departs from that. Also, it's lame for you to give me -like points for that and not TBM.
Does not compute that someone voting the player you think is scummiest at a given point (Nacho gut-voting me) is something you don't like.
You are totally misrepresenting KTB's vote for me. It was a good vote. Hell, you even say that it's good reasoning before you call it OMGUS, and afterward.
You and MoI share a failure to know the definition of false dichotomy. Something that includes all possibilities in the universe is not a false dichotomy.
Also, I post like gillions more than anyone else, so your EXTREME preference for +s over -s so far is going to artificially inflate my "points."-
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1. It's not crap logic. You even say that the argument itself is OK in your previous post, if exaggerated (which, I mean, by that logic, ANYTHING just out of RVS could be "exaggerated"):
Also, your last sentence here makes little sense. You generally question someone because they do something worthy of suspicion. (Yeah, there are *ahem* "pedantic" exceptions -- someone makes a neat claim that you want to clarify or whatever -- but that clearly wasn't in play here.)voll wrote:In that case, my points will stand, though for a different reason: namely, that the accusation is seriously overegged. To elaborate, it was prsented as if Kise had been acting contradictorily, when in reality it was just that he appeared to be refusing to participate in the jokey stage.It warrants further questioning, maybe, but it doesn't warrant suspicion.
2A. I offer my interpretation of KTB's behavior, and allow for whatever else he wants to give. It is NOT pedantry to call out a misrep when it happens.
2B. Also, even if I WERE making something other than an X/(1-X) dichotomy -- what the hell is false about it? IT'D STILL BE TOWN/SCUM! Are you arguing that I should have thrown Survivor or SK in for kicks? Should I have added "NOT misunderstood and/or NOT sweet town" as another explicit option to make my "scummy technique" less subversive?
3. Carry on.-
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EBWOP: Don't give me crap about the not of X/(1-X) being the universe of false dichotomies. You know what I mean.-
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Fair enough about me not knowing what the hell "overegged" means. I thought it was a colloquial alteration of "overexaggerated."
I dispute the bit about Kise's whining about the game not starting (yes, I know you don't like the word "whining" @ Kise) + not starting it being null. I've played in games where scum have been caught for just the "null" bit you trivialize (refer to Hoopla on page 2). Also, there's a difference between indicating "I don't like RVS" and indicating "gosh guys this is going nowhere see how concerned about activity I am?" (YES, THIS IS A CARICATURED, SIMPLIFIED VERSION OF WHAT HAPPENED. I AM DOING THIS TO EMPHASIZE A DISTINCTION THAT YOU ARE MISSING/IGNORING.)
The other is bullshit IMO, because the point of the game is to find scum, not "unreasonableness" per se.-
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EBWOP: Refer toHooplaBoxman on page 2. Hoopla replaced him N1 and was summarily killed upon killing the Town Bomb.-
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[Off-topic -- An excellent way to fix your system, for the times when you replace in as town, would be to multiply points different from the mean by the fraction of posts a player has contributed to the total posts in the game (plus a certain measure of punishing subjective vacuity). You'd still have a hard time giving points to lurkers, but at least your system would produce something informative.
You can even do it in this game! Don't worry; I only lose a little under 2 points (owing to being 20% of the thread), so I'm still ahead.]-
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Iecerint Survivor
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- Posts: 15766
- Joined: May 13, 2009
- Location: San Francisco
Gosh, vollkan/MoI complain that I'm too black-and-white, you complain that I vacillate to much. Can't win.
A great way to end the jokey bit is to make a real vote. TBM did it first this game.
Green.-
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Iecerint Survivor
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- Joined: May 13, 2009
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@ TBM, I think he's doing the "unvote with implicit intent to vote iece but ima hold off until people finish their isos so he doesn't freak out and claim prematurely" thing.
You'd think he could either ask me things that actually have to do with my alignment -- like evaluating my exchange with vollkan, or anything from before -- or someone else, but what can ye do.-
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Iecerint Survivor
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Yo Kise, do you have any comment about the fact that I can bold the post differently to totally void your assertion that fencesitting is happening? Cuz you didn't really give one.-
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Iecerint Survivor
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- Location: San Francisco
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Iecerint Survivor
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- Posts: 15766
- Joined: May 13, 2009
- Location: San Francisco
@ UK, while flavor discussion in general is pro-town, it's not pro-town if it's distorted. He's arguing that TBM is scummy because DTM said he was Adell's Dad because TBM might actually be Shura. This is a stretch and assumes a lot of stuff about how DTM's ability works, bastardry of the mod, etc.-
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Iecerint Survivor
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- Posts: 15766
- Joined: May 13, 2009
- Location: San Francisco