Mini 989 - Disgaea Mafia Episode 2 (Game Over!)

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/confirm

Not OT. BC.

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Vote: TBM

Owing to pettiness on my part.

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Unvote; Vote: Kthxbye

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I perceived the same thing on KTB's part. He recognizes enough about your vote to call it real, but not enough to recognize why it's real. Not to mention that the rationale for your vote, given that it's real, is pretty self-evident.

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@ KTB, he quoted something that Kise said and then voted Kise. It doesn't take someone with ++genius to infer that the content in said quote was the basis of the vote. Your implicit argument that it does doesn't make much sense to me.

I am sympathetic to the Kise wagon, but it seems to be doing just fine without me.

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@ TBM, I did; I think KTB is scummy for the same reason as Kise. But the two players' behavior is such that their scumminess isn't really mutually exclusive, anyway, so ye know.

@ Magna, nah -- I like the Kise wagon (almost) as much as anyone can like a wagon on page 4 (see above), but I don't think there's anything to be gained from me joining a wagon that already has 4 people or whatever on page 4 without hearing more from Kise. His implicit 2SCUM4SCUM defense wasn't doing much for me til iso 6, though.

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"Iso" means "isolation." "Kise's iso 6" means "Kise's 6th post."

You can use the tool at the bottom of the board ("Display posts from previous") to look at a specific player in isolation.

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1. There are two (at least) suspicious players: Kise and KTB.
2. Kise has a wagon sufficient to motivate him to participate/scumhunt/explain himself.
3. KTB doesn't.
4. So a vote for KTB is more useful than a vote for Kise, given that both players are comparably scummy.

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@ TBM: I don't understand your implicit incredulity.

@ KTB: People have already asked that, and I've already addressed it. Namely:

I perceived the same thing on KTB's part. He recognizes enough about your vote to call it real, but not enough to recognize why it's real. Not to mention that the rationale for your vote, given that it's real, is pretty self-evident.

It's the same as Kise's because Kise is scummy for whining about the game not going on, which doesn't jive with behavior that perpetuates something other than the game going on.

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His post was not just a vote. It contained an explanation in the form of a quotation. Is not the first time I have indicated as much.

The parallel is that both are cases where there's a disconnect between what people say about things and what their actions imply about them ("I want the game to start + I'm not taking action to make the game start" and "Is that vote real I cannot tell, even though the fact that I would frame a question like this around it makes it clear that I'm not legitimately clueless").

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^ His iso 6 is probably a step in the right direction. Have already indicated as much.

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IT WOULD BE LOVELY TO HAVE ADDITIONAL STEPS IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

and/or

To have people say whether KTB is a misunderstood sweetie or what.

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I totally hadn't noticed Foobert's post, or even his existence. He's clearly aping you there. It doesn't affect that the circumstances of your post are on the suspicious side of things, though (e.g. because of the chronology).

His circumstance is actually slightly odder than yours because he's aping what was already a perspective that required kinda careless reading IMO, so there are like (n+1) checkpoints for not reaching that kind of conclusion (i.e. more suspension of disbelief required, etc). So it's the kind of move more likely to result from reading the crowd than from careful scumhunting.

I would like more content from foobert before I elaborate too much on the subject.

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Back!

Foobert was totally off my radar (and a non-entity in-game) at the time. I was focused elsewhere. That's the only reason I can give for the apparent discrepancy.

If I were scum, I would have made up a difference between KTB and Foobert rather than give an answer that reflects inconsistently of me as such. [/self-meta]

However, I think KTB's posts immediately following my post is relatively protown.

Unvote; Vote: Magna

. His post seems fake.

Will post more when I've gotten use to the ugly colors.

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@ Magna, I obviously didn't forget the WIFOM stuff (at least not insofar as you mean it); I explicitly indicated it within the bit that you quoted. Your implication that I ignored WIFOM implications shows poor attention to detail at best.

Your post was awful because it basically consisted of aping other people and claiming incredulity toward my original KTB read in a way that doesn't make sense. Restated, my original argument was that implying knowledge while explicitly denying it is scummy, because a town person would never be in that circumstance. This is an extremely intuitive argument IMO. Accepting that you legitimately didn't understand it and thought I was making shit up is difficult for me to believe, so you being scum is parsimonious. It's the same as my original perception of KTB's post.

@ UK, while you already indicated that you were looking for a specific type of answer implicitly different from the one I already gave and your "DO NOT LIKE" explanation consequently follows logically, I don't understand your implicit premise that changing my story to something else would make me MORE likely to be town. Since I've already failed your "test," could you indicate what you were thinking you might see, so that I can evaluate whether you're just kind of making it up?

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Or you could specify "secret scumtell" if it's what I think it is. (In which case, you are kind of solipsistic.)

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Just "solipsistic"?

By which I meant that UK appeared to be attributing disproportionate weight to my attitude toward her to interpret my actions given that she is town (because as scum it's total BS, anyway, probably) and that I know where she's coming from (because if I'm wrong about where she's coming from, my interpretation of how she got there would be unlikely to be accurate).

I want to see what she comes up with, since in the latter case, investing energy into it is worthless.

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You said earlier that there was a specific explanation for my behavior that you would accept, because you've found yourself in such a position as town, or something like that. Since that doesn't appear to have factored into your analysis given your most recent post, what were you referring to?

(I always self-meta. Namely, I did it with you in Linked Role Chaos v2.0 D1. [/self-meta])

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This is a post from the recent game we both played in that does what I'm talking about.

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So, what would have been the "intent" in not noticing something? Like, "I was focused elsewhere"?

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1A. Yeah, but it's nonetheless a confirmed-town instance of me claiming that I always/often self-meta as town. Unless I was lying as town, you can assume that that much is probably accurate. That game's instance came to mind because I used almost the very same words as in this game.

1B. I can think of other times when I've used self-meta, too, but the other instance that really comes to mind is ongoing.

2. Fair enough.

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It makes it at

worst

a null tell.* (That, or I am self-deluded about my playstyle.) Because if it were worse than a null tell, I'd have been deliberately misleading as town. Agreed @ the other though.

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You are a frustrating lady at best. That is all.

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WELL INTRODUCE YOUR OWN ARGUMENT, THEN, PARTY-POOPER.

@ TBM.

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I want to lynch Magna.

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I like KTB a lot.

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I already said when I changed my mind. I'm glad he is our new favorite player, though.

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Jarti gained scumpoints with the last post. Townies somewhat irrationally cling to their prior perceptions of events. He didn't. TownJarti, who'd been pushing KTB with me for awhile, would've tried to persuade me that I was wrong about KTB, because that's what town wagon-mates do. Instead, he tries to argue that it is scummy for me to think KTB is town for unvoting me after I show my thought process.

FoS: Jarti

.

Not sure if I prefer Jarti or Magna. Reread necessary before I evaluate this too much. And I have an exam Tuesday, so it may take awhile. Just sayin.

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I keep thinking that Jarti's avatar is Edward from FFIV.

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Are you saying that my FoS for you is OMGUS, or are you lampshading that your vote for me is OMGUS?

Also, do you mean "complementary"?

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Oh. You typo'd. I thought "note respond" was because you changed your mind about what verb to use and forgot to erase the first.

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1. KTB, I voted you for a reason categorically different from why I suspect Magna (or Jarti). I'm more confident in the latter reads than the one on you. If you think this creates a contradiction, please elucidate it for me.

2. DTM, yeah, I didn't notice foobert's post. I may've glossed over people whining about it for precisely that reason. I don't blame you for finding it suspicious, though.

3. I don't under your little note to me on (8). Yes, Jarti's post is inconsistent with the townie mentality most players exhibit. No, this doesn't "confirm" me to him, which seems like bullshit, because why would it be expected to? And uh, do you have a typo when you list "townie" the second time? Assuming that there IS a typo -- my claim is certainly NOT that Jarti is tunneling. Hell, he only posted against me once. To put it a different way, my claim is that townies approach the game a certain way ("coalition-building," you could call it), and his post departs from that. Are some players different? Sure. But I think the culture of the site has become more and more like that since I've been here.

3. KTB "distanced" from Iecwagon ages ago. Your chronology implies that you didn't notice.

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Typo in my last -- should be "I don't understand."

@ Nacho, I disagree that it defeats the purpose of meta. D1 especially, no one has much to go on. If someone attacks me for a reason that I think doesn't make sense specifically to me (like, I reflect on someone's reasoning and legitimately don't think I would do that as scum), I think a meta defense is the best that can be hoped for. And I'm lampshading the self-meta for your benefit, anyway.

I do understand that some players take "self-meta" as a scumtell, and it's a fair designation, since some players are more likely to self-meta when they're scum playing against their meta. But I self-meta all the time, so self-meta is not a valid scumtell for me. [/self-meta]

METAMETAMETA.

I also don't blame you for inferring a KTB-Iec connection, because that kind of lame early-game distancing is honestly scumIec by the book. [/self-meta] It just happens to be wrong this time. I'll go back and make a post for you about why I changed my mind on KTB in a bit.

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(BTW -- Said "I don't understand" can be inferred to be a request for elucidation.)

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OK, so, KTB's post right after mine gives him townpoints basically because it is not a crap case. That is sort of a lame way to put it, but it's true. He establishes the extent to which I'd missed foobert, but he also holds some stuff back to make it clear that he's not just trying to win points by showing off how workmanlike he is. The only lame part, upon reread, is where he says I "fencesit on the Kise wagon even though

sympathize with it" which is sorta not accurate IMO.

Contrast that with Magna's response, which is basically to join the wagon (without voting; he stays on Kise and remains there) while making it very clear that he has little idea of why it exists. First post, it seems like he thinks I'm scummy for being wrong about Kise and KTB not doing the same thing (which I still don't understand even upon rereading). Then he implies that my asking someone whether KTB is "a misunderstood sweetie or what" is a false dichotomy, which is totally bogus because a) the dichotomy is "X union (1-X)", so it's not false, but more importantly b) the tone is CLEARLY jokey -- "mountains out of molehills," etc.

Then foobert indicates why I'm *actually* being called scummy, which is tunneling on KTB and missing foobert's posts. foobert says I'm not scummy etc. Magna responds by repeating his weirdness about Kise and KTB being totally different. His diction is also chosen to imply that lots of people are whining about that, whereas it's really just him. Then he repeats the "wouldn't vote for Kise thing" as an afterthought, which, ye know, fair enough.

(Just occurred to me -- I probably wouldn't bother with KTB distancing as scum if I already had Kise to wagon. Just sayin. [yeahyeah, /self-meta])

So,

tl;dr

KTB made a good case on me.
Magna made a crap case on me that blended bad stolen ideas from others and his own attempts at independent contributions. (Then he disappeared, but ye know.)

So that's the reason for the KTB->Magna switch.

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You'll be happy to hear I'm used to the background now.

Still need post numbers, though.

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Huh? Why do you interpret it implies a KTB/Magma connection?

Also, Adell is dead in this game.

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I hope Rozalin is the SK. I was let down the Vyers wasn't last time.

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I don't think it's accurate because I gave a specific reason for not voting. If I'd just said "Hmm, looks good. What am I to do!" that would be fencesitting. But this is a really minor point, which is why I gave Magna "fair enough" when I talk about him cross-supplying the same argument.

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Why is Kise like Gorrad was?

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Hmm. Maybe. "Adell's Dad" is much more likely to be the adoptive one (who has no name apart from that) than the biological one (who is Masked Man or Shura most of the game).

On the other hand, the 3 obvious scum, if dram was really follow-canon about it (he was in DG1), is FakeZenon, biodad, biomom. So maybe it's at least worth mentioning.

The part that I found more suspicious tbh is that you claimed your role result out of nowhere. O.o

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Oh, wow. I'd forgotten about that alternate ending part of flavorcase. That is indeed scummy.

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1. To the extent that that statement is WIFOM, it's WIFOM because I could be scum intentionally going against my meta. I indicate the point that it is self-meta with [/self-meta].

2. OK, you're going to have to do better than "but it's not," because I don't follow.

3A. You weren't "exploring" Kise. You were voting him and "exploring" me. This is a move I personally employ as scum, so I noticed it. I'm especially likely to vote a scumbuddy and attack a townie (see Fables Grimmafia for what I'm talking about).

3B. See above.

4. Um, no, that's not even remotely what I said. I said "do you think he's town in spite of what I've noticed (misunderstood sweetie), or something else (what)?". That includes all possibilities. You could argue that I'm somehow inappropriately highlighting the first one, but that'd still be wrong, because the point of the question was to interpret TBM's (I think?) attitude toward KTB up to that point. He seemed a little Kise-biased, so I was trying to figure out why.

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1. Well, yeah, there's WIFOM. That is DIFFERENT from what you claimed. You claimed that I slyly introduced WIFOM into the discussion, which is OBVIOUSLY false, because I made it VERY CLEAR that I was introducing it.

The information is not really quite null, because it's verifiable and people don't change as much as they pretend they do.

2. He didn't question his reasoning. He asked if the vote was real. IIRC.

Also, I have never used the term "CD," and never will because it is a disgusting perversion of the ACTUAL definition of the term.

3. Uh, well, yeah, it is within your "rights" to do something scummy, whether because you're scum or because it's your playstyle. Your "playstyle" in this regard is something I do a lot when I'm scum. So I think it's scummy.

Specifically, it's scummy because it trips up lazy isoers or players who scumhunt by VC analysis.

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He wants you to claim whether you're demon daddy or human daddy.

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See, I could see TBM as scum just because the Kise-lynching is more hardcore than what I saw last game; it's like ABR-tier. And I could see Adell's Dad as a fakeclaim for Shura, too.

But I couldn't see DTM getting "Adell's Dad" on Shura after a rolecop at all (unless Shura were an omni-GF, which implies that the woman isn't in the game, which is kinda sexist, etc).

So, I think TBM is town unless he's scum with DTM hoping to play on the kind of /outguess Kise is already putting forward after TBM flips. DTM would probably also have to have some kind of weak rolecop, too.

So, given a handful of flavor assumptions, the circumstances where TBM are scum are very specific and unlikely to be in play as I see them.

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So, the obvious reason to vote Kise based on that is that Kise was whining about the game not going ("PM me when the jokes are over"). The disconnect is that if he really wanted to get to scumhunting and all that, he could do it himself. He's either scum that doesn't want to scumhunt and is trying to get points for calling out people for being lazy, or he is himself just lazy.

My guess is that the same post ("PM me when the jokes are over") is the bit people interpret as Kise not liking RVS ("the jokes").

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It's not wishy-washy at all. Kise made a flavor argument about TBM being scum; I countered it arguing that it wasn't probable on flavor grounds (i.e. the same grounds that were the basis of Kise's case).

Why do you not like my flavor focus while not really bothering with the same thing from Kise?

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I've called 2 players town IIRC: KTB and TBM. The first is fine because I changed my opinion due to new information. The second is fine because you attacked him for a bad reason. Then you escalated it when people called you out on it, which I mean. I do that, too (i.e. escalating when people call me out for doing something scummy e.g. self-meta), because I'm kinda snotty sometimes. But your flavor stuff just got weaker as you went along.

Also, the fact that you've attacked me for calling TBM town is itself a slip. Calling someone town is fine if people already publicly think they're scum, cuz the only reason not to call people town is that it identifies a good NK target (doc/track WIFOM notwithstanding). The fact that you don't think TBM is in that category implies that you haven't mentally placed him there, which is consistent with you being scum, because you haven't counted your own case.

Players I think may be scum: Kise, Jarti, Magma.

Caveat is that DTM is probably scum if TBM is. I doubt it, though.

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Dude, that is INCREDIBLY selective bolding. Yes, your initial flavor speculation was better than your later ones. Then it got worse (alternate ending spec, not factoring in the context of DTM's claimed rolecop).

Let me rebold that second quote for you:

See, I could see TBM as scum just because the Kise-lynching is more hardcore than what I saw last game; it's like ABR-tier. And I could see Adell's Dad as a fakeclaim for Shura, too.

But I couldn't see DTM getting "Adell's Dad" on Shura after a rolecop at all (unless Shura were an omni-GF, which implies that the woman isn't in the game, which is kinda sexist, etc).

So, I think TBM is town unless he's scum with DTM hoping to play on the kind of /outguess Kise is already putting forward after TBM flips. DTM would probably also have to have some kind of weak rolecop, too.

So, given a handful of flavor assumptions, the circumstances where TBM are scum are very specific and unlikely to be in play as I see them.

This is a bit nuanced, but it is NOT fencesitting.

The first bit before the semicolon in the second post that you bolded I agree with, but I don't think you've mentioned that at all. (Or the other part you bolded, either?) It's new AFAIK.

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^ Dude, it was page 2. You work with what you've got and revise as necessary. Or that's how I do it. I guess your ranking system departs from that. Also, it's lame for you to give me -like points for that and not TBM.

Does not compute that someone voting the player you think is scummiest at a given point (Nacho gut-voting me) is something you don't like.

You are totally misrepresenting KTB's vote for me. It was a good vote. Hell, you even say that it's good reasoning before you call it OMGUS, and afterward.

You and MoI share a failure to know the definition of false dichotomy. Something that includes all possibilities in the universe is not a false dichotomy.

Also, I post like gillions more than anyone else, so your EXTREME preference for +s over -s so far is going to artificially inflate my "points."

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1. It's not crap logic. You even say that the argument itself is OK in your previous post, if exaggerated (which, I mean, by that logic, ANYTHING just out of RVS could be "exaggerated"):

In that case, my points will stand, though for a different reason: namely, that the accusation is seriously overegged. To elaborate, it was prsented as if Kise had been acting contradictorily, when in reality it was just that he appeared to be refusing to participate in the jokey stage.

It warrants further questioning, maybe, but it doesn't warrant suspicion.

Also, your last sentence here makes little sense. You generally question someone because they do something worthy of suspicion. (Yeah, there are *ahem* "pedantic" exceptions -- someone makes a neat claim that you want to clarify or whatever -- but that clearly wasn't in play here.)

2A. I offer my interpretation of KTB's behavior, and allow for whatever else he wants to give. It is NOT pedantry to call out a misrep when it happens.

2B. Also, even if I WERE making something other than an X/(1-X) dichotomy -- what the hell is false about it? IT'D STILL BE TOWN/SCUM! Are you arguing that I should have thrown Survivor or SK in for kicks? Should I have added "NOT misunderstood and/or NOT sweet town" as another explicit option to make my "scummy technique" less subversive?

3. Carry on.

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EBWOP: Don't give me crap about the not of X/(1-X) being the universe of false dichotomies. You know what I mean.

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Fair enough about me not knowing what the hell "overegged" means. I thought it was a colloquial alteration of "overexaggerated."

I dispute the bit about Kise's whining about the game not starting (yes, I know you don't like the word "whining" @ Kise) + not starting it being null. I've played in games where scum have been caught for just the "null" bit you trivialize (refer to Hoopla on page 2). Also, there's a difference between indicating "I don't like RVS" and indicating "gosh guys this is going nowhere see how concerned about activity I am?" (YES, THIS IS A CARICATURED, SIMPLIFIED VERSION OF WHAT HAPPENED. I AM DOING THIS TO EMPHASIZE A DISTINCTION THAT YOU ARE MISSING/IGNORING.)

The other is bullshit IMO, because the point of the game is to find scum, not "unreasonableness" per se.

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EBWOP: Refer to

Hoopla

Boxman on page 2. Hoopla replaced him N1 and was summarily killed upon killing the Town Bomb.

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[Off-topic -- An excellent way to fix your system, for the times when you replace in as town, would be to multiply points different from the mean by the fraction of posts a player has contributed to the total posts in the game (plus a certain measure of punishing subjective vacuity). You'd still have a hard time giving points to lurkers, but at least your system would produce something informative.

You can even do it in this game! Don't worry; I only lose a little under 2 points (owing to being 20% of the thread), so I'm still ahead.]

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Gosh, vollkan/MoI complain that I'm too black-and-white, you complain that I vacillate to much. Can't win.

A great way to end the jokey bit is to make a real vote. TBM did it first this game.

Green.

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@ TBM, I think he's doing the "unvote with implicit intent to vote iece but ima hold off until people finish their isos so he doesn't freak out and claim prematurely" thing.

You'd think he could either ask me things that actually have to do with my alignment -- like evaluating my exchange with vollkan, or anything from before -- or someone else, but what can ye do.

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Yo Kise, do you have any comment about the fact that I can bold the post differently to totally void your assertion that fencesitting is happening? Cuz you didn't really give one.

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EBWOP-2: too*

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@ UK, while flavor discussion in general is pro-town, it's not pro-town if it's distorted. He's arguing that TBM is scummy because DTM said he was Adell's Dad because TBM might actually be Shura. This is a stretch and assumes a lot of stuff about how DTM's ability works, bastardry of the mod, etc.

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So, you all make sure to have the mod PM me when the jokes are over.

This is whining about RVS as I read it. Or at least pouting. It's in the same universe. Claiming a misrep here is splitting hair IMO.

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@ vollkan

1. At the first bit, you have correctly identified what makes Boxman/Hoopla and Kise scummy, but I disagree that Kise's quote (listed in my previous quote) is devoid of the self-righteousness you allude to. Could be a YMMV point, but attacking someone for picking up on that (ACTUALLY -- preferentially attacking someone OTHER THAN the person who really jumped on it for it, where said "other person" has more scrutiny going in) is an attack on playstyle at best.

2. Saying something is fake is slightly more specific than saying it is scummy. I didn't have time to go into detail at that moment because of other games IIRC. I elucidate later. The difference is basically the difference between a crap case and a decent one, which I am historically pretty good at picking out.

3. Looking at people you aren't voting is one thing. Voting someone and largely ignoring them while attacking someone else is scummy. Your vote should reflect who you think is singularly most likely to be scum. Which, frankly,

Unvote; Vote: Jarti

.

4. Lazy isoers are people who get to lylo and just read VCs and iso without looking at context. So, for example, if MoI is scum with Kise (fits what I would do as scum with Kise), lazy isoers might be like "gosh, he kept voting for Kise even though TBM was pushing for his lynch all D1," without really noticing that he never attacked Kise in a meaningful way.

5. VC analysis is NOT a stupid way to play; namely, townDGB catches all the scum that way, quite literally in Kingdom Hearts. You are wrong. Scum will be caught if everyone votes in a pro-town fashion.

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My reads can be summarized like this.
1. Jarti is scum.
2. MoI is scummy.
3. Both Jarti and MoI make sense as scum with Kise (because Jarti joined my equivalent wagon on KTB more strongly than frankly made sense -- this is actually scummy even if he's not scum with Kise, come to think of it; for MoI, voting Kise while not attacking him). Kise made pretty awful flavor posts. Kise may be scum.
4. Vollkan's reread seems a little bent against me in structure (but I'm sure that always applies) and content. But his level of output and his reads is the right thing to do. I'd lynch Jarti long before him. HOWEVER:
A. He seems to be ignoring whole spheres of the game. Does he think it's at all possible that TBM could be scum without DTM? You have to postulate a rolecop-proof GF who isn't the main baddie (albeit, one with kinda mixed loyalties), or bastardly scumrole assignments (WITH a town rolecop) that differ from what dram did last game. In other words, he's ignoring information that should drastically force him to reinterpret TBM's behavior all game.
B. For all his defense of Kise, he glosses over (namely) Kise's questionable use of flavor with a blanket "flavor discussion is the right way to go D1" comment. Hello? If I claim that Adell's Dad is scummy because Adell's human parents hate crime'd Adell, does that make me pro-town? (Spoilers before you can come in an answer yet another rhetorical question while pretending that I'm silly for asking it -- no, it makes me scummy for using flavor in twisty ways, which implies either a straightforward twistiness, or that I am scum with ++knowledge of a twisty setup.)
5. Corollary to above is that DTM-TBM could be scum together. But this requires a very idiosyncratic setup, so it should not be seriously considered today.

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My playstyle (and TBM's, it appears) in RVS is to go with the first thing that isn't quite null and run with it to see where it takes me. Sometimes it's someone's tone being off, sometimes it's as superficial as /confirm order if that information is public. You're claiming that that's scummy because it's a "reach," I'm saying that that's my approach to RVS -- get out of it as soon as something investigable is apparent. It's also a catch-22 as I see it, because anything that early in the game can be a scummy "reach" by your worldview.

I think you may've passed said elucidation in your readthrough? But I summarized it in the bit you just quoted -- KTB's case on me was good, MoI's was very bad. The post itself goes into why. You've already endorsed his "slam" (or a comparably hilarious physical assault metaphor; can't remember the exact word you used) on me, so this is going to be something we disagree on. We also disagree about KTB's case on me, since you called it good reasoning, and then OMGUS, and then good reasoning again.

LOL. Now you're using dictator metaphors to describe my views of the game. This is rich. Yes, you can make little pokes at someone you're not voting. That's not what MoI did. IIRC, his Kise vote was just RVS, though I haven't gone back to doublecheck.

There are always going to be weak links in the town, and those players are, at least on the NK side of things, more likely to survive to endgame. Not caring about making things as transparent for them as possible is playing against the town win condition.

VC analysis being good is certainly relevant to this game; it is the explanation for why MoI's use of his vote is anti-town at best.

So, the gist is that DTM claimed that TBM's role is "Adell's Dad." Adell's Dad in the game is a comic relief NPC who is the adoptive father of the main character. My guess going in is that it would be a VT-type role.

Kise correctly pointed out that Adell also has a biological Dad in-game -- Masked Man/Shura, who is an antagonist, albeit a brainwashed one who has little moments of mental freedom whenever he's around the party in-game. Shura is less likely to be town than Adell's (otherwise nameless) Dad. So, decent point, even though it postulates more than a little bastardry in the form of a role-cop proof GF scum Shura (one who checks "Adell's Dad" rather than "Masked Man" or "Shura").

Kise's subsequent elaborations are not good at all, though. He alludes to an obscure ending in the source material (they're famous for having lots of obscure hidden endings) where Adell turns into a villain because realZenon (like a Chaotic Neutral/Evil-type entity that hangs out inside protagonist Rozalin, opposed to main Lawful Evil villain fakeZenon) possesses him. He argued that this might mean that Adell was scum with his adoptive parents or something. First, this is wrong because Adell flipped town as part of the flavor pregame. Second, this is based on really really really out-there flavor, which I can only interpret as trying to support a perceived weakness in his attack on TBM.

Need to head to class now, so this is cut short.

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Another flavor note on the hypothetical rolecop-proof GFscum Shura. You might think that Kise speculated as much (implicitly) because of some kind of subplot in the source material where Shura disguises himself as Adell's Dad or whatever to nefarious effect. It never happens. The player (but not the party, so much; they're mostly dumb for comedy points throughout the game) gets little hints that Shura's Adell's biodad until a climactic fight near the end of the game, where, after you win, biodad and biomom ask for redemption.

So, I hope that narrative clarifies that the inclusion of such a role would introduce a degree of bastardry. (Not to mention Kise's later flavorspec.)

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My intent in explicitly indicating that I was self-metaing is to highlight that the statement should be interpreted as such. It's the same as if I made a WIFOM argument and followed it with [/WIFOM]. I don't know what more you would have wanted out of me, other than a ban on self-meta altogether, which is a problem with playstyle and not with content. Same goes for your argument that self-meta is "useless." I disagree, especially for really early-game attacks.

Contradictory behavior can certainly be a scumtell. For example, voting Kise without really trying to read him would be scummy contradictory behavior. But I think it's in general more important to think about agency ("meta") than contradictory behavior per se. Is getting a little abstract. IIRC, the reason I said I'd never said CD was that someone said I called someone or something CD, and I don't think I had.

I didn't bother to doublecheck my facts because I was late for class and needed to finish my post and get going. I thought I remembered isoing you before and seeing an early Kise vote that never went anywhere. If I'm confusing you with someone else (and you actually ARE voting me), that takes your scumminess down a bit.

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OK, you just voted me 2 days ago, it looks like. So that's why I remembered the iso "incorrectly" -- it was from when I posted that KTB's vote for me was good, and your case on me was not, and that was before you'd voted for me. You still kinda kept off of me for awhile.

BUT, it looks like you also did bother with Kise quite a bit. Sooooo, I'm glad I switched to Jarti, basically.

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(Also -- I just ctrl+f'd CD, and those are indeed the first times I CD'd/cognitive'd anything this game. So yeah.)

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Ye know what's more anti-town than content-laden wallposts? Vacuity.

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I certainly hope so, though I'll grant I'm not certain of whether you're reading it.

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Whatever. I couldn't.

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Um, no. High content is pro-town, if a little more work for people who can't be arsed to play the game. Lurking is anti-town. At best.

Also, if you really think I'm scum, you should want me to post as much as possible so that you can evaluate my thought process, etc.

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Uh, show me a "wallpost" of mine that is "without content." I'd say to demonstrate such a pattern, but I'm skeptical you can find just one.

And explain how I'm managing simultaneous "without content" back-and-forths with 2 separate players?

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You CLEARLY said "high content" in an attempt to mock that I'd just used the same phrase. Any normal person reading our exchange understands that your point is an implicit belief that my posts are vapid.

What was the first strawman, so long as we're playing your game?

I love how you ignored the ACTUAL point of my post, which is that low activity is scummy, not high. Attacking someone for high activity is bullshit.

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INB4 a bogus claim that she's not attacking me for high activity, but for low "signal:noise" ratio.

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My posts are no longer than they need to be to respond to the numerous questions and implications directed at me + rhetoric/logic for my position + asking my own questions.

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Also, UK/Nacho, to clarify -- who is/are the wallposters?

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I just reread my posts to make sure I wasn't making it up. I count no more than 10 noise posts, and that number is counting useful-but-perhaps-not-necessary EBWOPs. UK's unsupported claim that my posts are fluffy because they are long -- when, as the player under scrutiny, I SHOULD be posting a lot -- does not follow. It's nice that she says she'll reread, though.

If you'd read my exchanges with volk, you might notice bits where his walls have been off.

One thought -- the scrutiny on me is too broad to have that many scum on my wagon, it seems like. So...I dunno whether people just don't like reading my posts, or what.

I MISS WHEN EVERYONE THOUGHT I WAS AN EASY TOWN READ FOR POSTING ALL THE TIME CHRIST. <_<

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@ Miss Kitten

What was the first strawman, so long as we're playing your game?

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Far be it from me to keep myself open to lynching a player on D1.

My conditional is not complex. TBM and DTM are scum together OR slight bastardry from dram OR both are town. The last option is most probable.

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Ooh, L-1. This is nostalgic. I haven't been mislynched since my first game on the site, I don't think, over a year ago. Hit a few L-1s in the meantime, though.

Well, there was one game where I was a real-life Death Miller, but I don't count that one. <_<

I'll claim if someone not voting me wants me to.

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More bullshit from Miss Kitten.

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V/LA until late Sunday. I may manage a post tomorrow morning. Posting in all my games.

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Turns out I'm not going to be out of town this weekend, after all. V/LA canceled. Posting in all games. Sorry for spam.

What I said is absolutely verifiable. Also, I would never have posted it as scum because it gives the impression that players who think I'm scum are unlikely to be mistaken. [/WIFOM]

Being transparent about claim policies is pro-town.

So, basically, forgive me if I don't take your unexplained "scum intent" tell very seriously.

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@ KTB, while I agree that RBT is scummy, he's sort of always that way. I'd advise you to read his is iso the first Disgaea game. He was confirmed masons with someone, got confirmed when his wagon was run up D1, then spent the rest of the game, well, being a scummy confirmed-town player.

(That said, RBT is a pretty minimally tragic mislynch. I think Jarti is a better lynch, though.)

Anyway, could be that someone here can differentiate town and scum RBT, but it isn't me.

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@ Miss Kitten, please show me the sneaky key words that I MUST know.

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OK, so, I'll assume you were just making it up, then.

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The point is to highlight that UK is making attacks on me that don't make sense and/or she won't/can't clarify.

(I suppose I understand how the attacks being revealed as weak could look like distancing, but.)

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@ vollkan

1. I disagree. For the same reason that early game play "justifies" investigating relatively weakly justified votes, it "justifies" investigating relatively weak reads. I'm putting justify in quotes there to respond to another of your points --when I use the word "justify" here, it's NOT the case that justification is something attributed to the play. It's something the play GETS just by being early game. (Does that make sense?) This is why your claim that I'm "trying to immunize" myself against my play does not make sense; in other words, I'm using "justified" to mean "the right thing to do here" rather than "forgiven by Christ" or whatever.

I'm not expressing myself very well, maybe, so let me know if the above is unclear. Maybe a better word to use would have been that my early game play is "normative." Hence, there's no need for me to "immunize" myself with "justification," at least not in the typical sense of the word.

2. Nah, I make a big post after that where I explain why KTB's case was good and MoI's was bad. Maybe you missed it. The original post was mostly unexplained, though, yeah. To respond to your immediate points, I disagree with the former ("not very bad"), and the characteristic that made me use the word "fake" was that they didn't appear to display very clear original critical thinking on the subjects.

3. It's not because it "frustrates" a certain kind of player. It's because -- given my interpretation and recollection of MoI's behavior at the time -- it is deceptive to players who don't read him carefully, as his vote implies suspicion other than what his actions indicate. (In other words, it's scummy unless you have a good explanation.) MoI did EVENTUALLY get around to voting me, though, like a day or so before I posted that, so it's not quite as egregious as I'd thought. (This is pretty much the same thing as in the bit you quoted, btw.)

I don't think it's outlandish to suggest that people should vote who they most want to lynch. If your playstyle is different from that, you'd better have a good justification.

@ Kise, do you think I misrepresented or misunderstood your flavor argument in the bit vollkan just quoted and commented on?

@ KTB, I agree with Miss Kitten 100% on RBT. Lynching him won't teach him anything; I think he likes to watch people squirm at him. The way to deal with him is a combination of PoE and investigation. There's no way around it.

@ All, Jarti is scum. Please recognize this and vote him with me.

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Yeah. I'm not crazy about Kise, either. Jarti just jumps out a little more, perhaps partially because of the technique you've indicated.

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@ RBT, while KTB's lurkerhunting is sort of bad, I think his case on me was the only one that made sense. As such, I have a town read on him, and don't want to lynch him today.

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WHAT THE HELL DEADLINE IS SOON GOD.

A Jarti lynch, especially one just by me, is not going to happen in the brief time we have.

Vote: Extension

Unvote; Vote: Kise

Kise is my top suspect that has a chance of being lynched.

[Iecerint]

ALERT ALERT ALERT

TIME TO SAY YOU'LL KILL ME OR YOU'D RATHER KILL KISE, BASICALLY. OR BEG DRAM FOR MORE TIME FOR PRATTLING.

ALERT ALERT ALERT

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Main basis for Kise lynch as I see it: awful, terribad flavorlogic + sporadicish posting.

I've seen evidence of the latter elsewhere on the site to a certain extent, though. :/

GOD CAN'T WE JUST LYNCH JARTI HE IS SCUM AARHRHHGGRHHGRGH.

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UK, do you think Jarti is scum?

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1. Really strongly follows me on KTB's wagon over Kise's because he "really agrees with me." This is bad for lots of reasons. First, the tells were pretty similar between the two players. It was stronger from Kise if anything. Second, I'm relatively sure KTB is town, and I'm not sure Kise is.

2. Does not interact with me the way that normal wagonmates do. Wagonmates presume a shared understanding of the game with their mates and trust them more than other players (on average). Jarti suspected me out of nowhere as soon as I changed my mind about KTB. This is because he's not playing to build consensus and lynch scum; he's playing to find a mislynch. When the main town player (scum perspective) pushing for a mislynch drops out, scum can't push that angle as well anymore.

3. No evidence of original thinking in his posts. Everything is something someone else already said. This is peripheral to the two above, though.

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I don't think there's a deadline extension rule, but it can't hurt.

Ugh.

Preview edit: I'm voteless? -_-

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Nevermind. ^^

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OH DOC, BE OPTIMISTIC
PEGGY'S BREAKDOWN IS PART OF THE PAST NOW
I DON'T WANT HER IN ANOTHER MENTAL HOSPITAL
I WANT HER HOME WITH ME AND THE KIDS

BE OPTIMISTIC.

JUSTICE ALWAYS TRIUMPHS!

THE ARC OF HISTORY BENDS TOWARD JUSTICE!

[Iecerint]

Well, we really just need 4 votes to lynch Jarti if some of them come off of my wagon. Lynch threshold is halved at deadline.

But yeah.

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Don't worry. Even though there are 29 posts, there's not much actual content in them. Most of them are little jokes.

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Well, Kise lynch wouldn't make the tears come at night, so.

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YEAH, YOU DEVILISH KITTEN. WHY NOT LAMPSHADE THAT MAVERICK-YNESS WITH A WAGON HOP TO KISE?

THAT'LL THROW EM.

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What the smeg is up with this towns activity level, come frolic townspeople!

Just wait til I'm dead! Enjoy your ghost town!

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Kise was a different kind of scummy D1 of the first game, though. And the only player who caught on to it was you.

The first post you linked has nothing to do with me whatsoever. So...I don't know if this is a test to see who reads your posts or you mislinked, but yeah.

The second post is the claim that I was distancing from KTB early game, which I think someone else mentioned before that -- that would admittedly be an OK possibility, since I do distance lamely like that as scum sometimes (not that Jarti would know that), but is wrong here.

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What's new in the first post? The part about KTB's iso (I assume he means iso 2) is my original case on KTB. Do you mean the argument that Kise is town because he's anti-town with TBM? Kinda like how DTM is scum for being anti-town analogously?

The rest of the post is smileys and padding.

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Well, first of all, Kise's iso 4 and 5 aren't what he calls them. His iso 4 is the thundercats post. So, it's hard to know what Jarti's even talking about.

But the words Jarti uses, at least, read like "Kise's not playing nice with TBM; that shows that he is town because he's so sure of himself" whereas "DTM's being anti-town; that shows he is scum" -- they have kinda the same first bit with the opposite predicate.

YES, THERE IS NUANCE IN AN IMAGINARY WORLD WHERE JARTI SAID SOMETHING DIFFERENT ABOUT KISE AND DTM, BUT NOT IN THIS ONE.

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Not cooperating with an interrogator is anti-town in my view. So is whatever DTM did whatever he did, presuming that he did it.

It's POSSIBLE that there's a meaningful difference, but it's impossible to judge because the isos are listed inappropriately, and he didn't articulate the difference in the post itself. My guess is that he just had to justify not joining Kise when being all for KTB, so he used a bogus explanation to justify it.

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Remind me why you think I'm scum? Because all I recall is that you objected to my take on you using flavor inappropriately.

Also, answer query please.

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Nah, I was playing a computer game. But now I'll sleep. :X

OK, so, assuming that that "misrep" is your flavor argument, I'm going to assume that I basically had it right above and there's no actual case on me from you that makes sense. Hell, even vollkan agreed that your flavor argument made no sense (at least, as I put it, and you've refrained from correcting me), and he's out to get me, etc. My query was for you to say whether or not my summary of your flavor argument was accurate. You've kinda answered it by (I guess that's what you're talking about) calling it a misrep, but I'm still missing why.

Your worm metaphors are a little trite. I like vollkan's dictator metaphors better.

I said I'd claim when someone not on my wagon said they wanted to hammer me. It hasn't happened.

[Iecerint]

My role is Pleinair, Silent Commentator (Vanilla Townie). The only real flavor is to lampshade that the same role was included in the first Disgaea. I think it was DTM in that game.

dram just sent me an invite to some large game he's running. I don't think he would have done it if he were impressed by my scum play under the present circumstances (as I'm almost certainly going to be lynched). Consider this evidence that I'm not totally off my rocker.

Jarti's not useless. He's scum.

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There's nothing WIFOM about that whatsoever, unless you just think I'm lying. When I near-inevitably flip in a bit, you'll be in a position to better evaluate my reads.

Also, I think dram finds me sort of obnoxious in general, so...that also affects my interpretation.

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Appeals to authority aren't fallacious when the authority knows who the scum are.

The AtE bit will be proven inaccurate when I flip.

The evidence is circumstantial, just like all information D1 and almost all information in mafia. You're bloody brilliant.

[Iecerint]

Uh, it's not irrelevant. I'm pretty sure dram was annoyed with how I did DG1 (no idea why). He's been snippy at me in games I've played with him since then. He didn't explicitly invite me to this game, even though I clearly had interest in the flavor based on my participation in the first game. I SENSE A SHIFT.

There are other explanations, but it's extra information to play with when I'm gone. You people whining about it makes no sense whatsoever.

[Iecerint]

The probability that I will not be lynched is extremely low. I don't know when the deadline is, but it's soon, and everyone else is a lurker. I'm not playing to stop my lynch; I'm playing to give you necessary information when I die.

When I flip town, you will have access to the information because I shared it with you. SEE HOW LUCKY YOU ARE?

dram didn't tell me who the scum are; stop flagrantly twisting things around. His behavior was consistent with not thinking that I'm a total loser, whereas he tends to think otherwise AND he would have less reason to have his mind changed if I were scum.

The above should indicate why it is very relevant. But that's for the town to evaluate, I figure.

[Iecerint]

Uh, unless you're positing that I actively lie as town, your claim that it's "not verifiable" seems very dumb.

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IT'S NOT A FALLACY IF THE AUTHORITY IS LEGITIMATELY LIKELY TO HAVE INFORMATION. AND THERE'S NO ATE AT ALL. UWAAA.

My reads are extremely public. If town hasn't figured them out, I figure it's almost impossible for me to make people read anything. But I mean --

Jarti is scum. Scum scum scum. Kise is scummy. UK has more unexplained tells than usual, but she always has a few. vollkan's readthrough technique/implementation is biased toward finding the popular target scummiest to my eye based on discrepancies between, namely, points given to me and not TBM at times, and he stopped it as soon as I forced him to agree with me about something (that Kise's bad flavorpost was scummy).

Others honestly aren't even playing the game, so. That makes it hard. Of them, only Nacho's level of lurking seems uncharacteristic.

REALLY ALMOST EVERYONE IS SCUMMY AND IT IS INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATING UGHUGHUGH.

Preview edit: if I'm lynched as scum, that is complete fail; if I'm lynched as town, there's still the possibility that I had some accurate reads. Hence, any change in perspective from dram makes more sense if I am town AND not a dummy.

[Iecerint]

So, vote for Kise. Then we'll have 6/6.

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At deadline, lynch thresholds are halved. No lynch will not happen. Both Kise and I have enough votes.

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The player who was at the threshold for longer is traditionally lynched. That'd be me.

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I said I would claim when someone off my wagon announced intent to hammer. KTB did so. I claimed.

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I TOLD YOU THAT JARTI WAS 110% SCUM.

KTB managed to convince me he was town after his initial suspicion, though.

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I figure that's where he's coming from with the Tarot game. Bonus points if he works in FoolMoon.