Mini 1005: Mafiaphobes! (Game over)

[KageLord]

Vote: q21

Last to confirm, first to die!

[KageLord]

2) What's the role you prefer to play (nothing to uncommon please), which role do you prefer between townie and scum?

Pointless rolefishing question.

3) What role you hate having in the setup/play against (nothing uncommon please)?

See above.

question 2/3 are not role-fishing... I honestly want to know from you which role you prefer to play and which roles you don't like to play against (or with)...
this can be

used later in the game for analysis of posts...

e.g. I think that someone is more likely to be passive if they are playing a role they dislike...
knowing ones favorite role can turn useful later on... see it as a kind of investment, everybody invests 10 seconds of their time to tell us their favorite role and maybe we get to use that information later in the game... it's probable that it won't serve any purpose, but it could be helpful later, so it's definitely an investment that's somehow favorable

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

Here you say that 2-3 aren't rolefishing, but go on to say that they could be used later for analysis and that quoted part from you says we might be able to later use those "personality profiles" to determine who has what role based on their play. While this method doesn't seem reliable at all to me, if you believe in it, how could you say that's not like rolefishing? If a cop or doc is somehow discovered through your method, that would, in fact, hurt town. So, either the questions do nothing as some people say (and I personally believe), or they are actually hurtful to town. Either way, the benefit to scum would outweigh the benefit to town (this method, even if it works, is unlikely to find scum unless they are pretty dumb about it). If Tasky is town, all these questions have done so far is make town suspect him, drawing attention away from the real scum. If Tasky is scum... well, these questions might have done some good after all.

[KageLord]

Guys, take a look at Tasky's join date, posting style, etc. Now tell me, do you really think he's good enough to subtly rolefish like that as scum? Cause I really don't.

@KageLord: how would scum find out a cop/doc through Tasky's questions?

As I said, I don't think anyone could find PRs through those questions. But Tasky suggested that he thought we would be able to do so later in the game based on answers to those questions. My point was that it wouldn't work. And if by some miracle you could gain knowledge from that, it would be a double-edged sword since scum could use that too. Never mind that I said anything though... if that's the method Tasky wants to use and the rest don't have a problem with it (besides not wanting to answer), I don't have a problem either. I just didn't think it was an efficient use of our time and his brainpower.

And I have to say, it looks pretty bad for vezo. I was going to say something to vezo after the post following SSBF's ISOs of Friend since it basically tries to call Friend out on the same thing that SSBF said, but vezo claims it was a ninja (or a "nath"?) by SSBF. I'm not sure if I buy that though since the posts were 6 minutes apart. Just after being called out on sheeping Oso, vezo seems to sheep SSBF. It's also that vezo voted Tasky, unvoted, and then labels him scum again (along with Friend).

Vote: vezokpiraka

[KageLord]

Just realized that I forgot to unvote before voting again. I'm not sure if it really matters, but if it helps the mod...

Unvote: q21

Vote: vezokpiraka

[KageLord]

I didn't knew about SSBF post before.
You see there are no avatars there.

I didn't bother to check that until after I had posted.

Yes I care what others post.

Why not (asking about the part I bolded)?

Also, I suppose it would be

possible

that it was just your negligence about checking the post made before yours that made it look like you were sheeping SSBF as well, but there are two main reasons why I think that is unlikely. The first reason is that, if things did happen the way you say they did, that means your little post took at least 6 minutes to write. It doesn't seem like a few lines should take that long. The second, and I think more concrete, reason is the common phrase in your post and SSBF's. It's possible that you both came up with exactly the same idea/defense, but you use the same phrase, which is "noob pass" (although SSBF wrote it "n00b pass"). Coincidence? I think not.

Edit after preview: And I see Friend has another issue for you to answer.

[KageLord]

So you're giving tasky the noob pass but you're voting for me because of sheepping?
You sure you're not scum with Tasky?

EBWOP: That "few lines" I mention above is actually these two. Looking at it again... I'd say this should take a max of 3 minutes to right and submit.

Edit after preview: So... it seems fate really dislikes you in this game, vezo. Two coincidences like that to make it look like you were sheeping in your defense/counterattack after being accused of sheeping.

It intrigues me that vezo puts Friend in the "town pile" for saying he suspects vezo himself. O.o

[KageLord]

EBWOP: ^ That should be "write and submit", not "right and submit".

/self grammar nazi

[KageLord]

You started to make me doubt you when you said this:

- snip -

....The first reason is that, if things did happen the way you say they did, that means your little post took at least 6 minutes to write. It doesn't seem like a few lines should take that long....

- snip -

Using out of game reasoning to base an in-game scumcall on. Bells start ringing. Any good player would know that it is impossible to base anything off of post time unless there is a wide gap (much more than 6 minutes) before trying to call bullshit on a ninja post. Since I'm not going to assume anyone is a bad player, I have to assume there is a reason behind that statement.

Well first of all, I admitted in that post that this was the less concrete reason of the two. Second, I think any discrepancy is enough to at least bring up. By "out of game reasoning", I assume you mean the reasoning of how long it should take to post two sentences. I really don't know what to say to that, since I would think it to be common logic. The evidence is circumstantial, to be sure, and if that was what the entire case was based around, it would surely be unworthy of mention. However, it's just a small part of the case to undermine the defense (not as much to add on to the attack).

The here:

- snip -

EBWOP: That "few lines" I mention above is actually these two. Looking at it again... I'd say this should take a max of 3 minutes to right and submit.

- snip -

Now I'm sure he's scum. He narrows the time for calling vezo a liar.

What if I told you that it took me about 45 minutes to compose this and someone posted something similar just as i started? Would I be

auto scummed

in your eyes because of the discrepancy if I said I didn't preview before post and I was ninja'd. I mean, my god it's 45 minutes. Doesn't take into account the 4 phone calls I had though. The broke neighbor coming by to ask if he could bum a couple of cigarettes and the trip I made outside to smoke myself while filling up the outside cat's water dish so they don't maybe, I don't know, die of thirst because it's summer.

That didn't happen with this post because it didn't take 45 minutes but what I just described is pretty much the types of posting interruptions I deal with all the time during the weekdays.

And KageLord is trying to push a 6 minute, outside the game, discrepancy? Scummier than a stagnant frog pond in August is what that is.

First of all, who is being auto scummed? Not once did I ever say I'm 100% sure that vezo is scum (though you said that about me with, at least in my mind, much less substantial evidence). And as stated above, that's just one point in the case, neither the main one nor what the whole case is based around.

Next, there is clearly a big difference between your post and vezo's that I quoted. Can you tell what it is? Well, if you just take my words there literally, you might notice it is that your post is 'big'. The time needed to make your post here is pretty much unknown. For reasons that you mentioned and just peoples' typing and thinking speeds in general, I would have no way of even guessing how long this post took you. On the other hand, pretty much no matter how slow you type, two lines in 6 minutes is a long time.

Now, when I was posting that EBWOP, vezo posted the reason that it took him 6 minutes. His reason is perfectly understandable, since we all (or most of us, anyway) get phone calls at possibly inconvenient times. The only question left then is if you believe 'both of my points were coincidences (the phone happened to ring while vezo was writing those two lines and vezo just happened to use the same term SSBF had used, "noob pass", to describe a reaction to Tasky) and that vezo really just didn't read SSBF's post during the preview and just read it after' or 'vezo is scum trying to cover his tracks'.

The reason I didn't unvote in my "edit after preview" was that I chose to believe the latter until further evidence changed my view or there was someone else that I could be more certain was scum.

By the way, noticing how fast wagons are forming here, I just want to urge everyone to (in case they didn't already plan on doing this) hold off on hammering when someone is L-1 until the accused at least has a chance to post again. Quicklynching is scum's friend, not ours.

[KageLord]

Wagon analysis.
We have tasky and friend. One who got a wagon formed on him at the beginning and one who defended him. KageLord - the one who is pushing a wagon on me for out of game reasons. We may have all the three(?) scums here.

I will

Vote KageLord

I really don't like his last few posts. He comes as incredibly scummy to me.

... I am so glad to see that you are not sheeping. I don't know why we ever suspected you of it with original thoughts like that.

[/sarcasm]

[KageLord]

Vezo ISOs

ISO 0: Votes Tasky for asking RQs. Says "subtle questions = scum".

ISO 1: Disagrees with SSBF. Says that quicklynching can be good with an example of a previous game (

no link and I personally think this could be taken as a little bit scummy, though I'll say it's null

). Says scum do RQs more often then town (

no examples/links

). Doesn't like Tasky's response to vote (

I personally see nothing wrong with Tasky's response, other than the previously discussed "is it scummy to not answer RQs"

). Ignores Friend's direct request for links to back up the "subtle questions = scum".

ISO 2: Says Tasky's first 3 questions are useless. Says playstyle question is stupid. Says bandwagons are sometimes good and sometimes bad. In response to Friend's repeated request for links, says the game is in progress and on another site (

apparently vezo had only one unfinished game in mind when making this general rule about RQs and I'm hoping the person that asked the RQs there had already flipped scum

).

ISO 3: Says Tasky's questions are not in town's interest to be answered. Says allowing scum to self meta is bad (

good point here

).

ISO 4: Agrees with Oso and unvotes Tasky (

seems like first instance of sheeping to me, especially after appearing confident. but, we can give vezo the BotD here

).

ISO 5 and 6: Claims that Friend is giving Tasky a "noob pass" and yet is voting for him because of sheeping. Asks Friend if he's scumbuddies with Tasky. Claims he was "nathed" by SSBF.

Now, this is the most suspicious post of vezo's to me in the whole game so far. First, as I have already mentioned, he uses the phrase, "noob pass", that SSBF had used in the post before him. What makes it more suspicious is that he had posted after the "noob pass" was given but made no mention of it. In fact, in that post, vezo unvoted Tasky after agreeing with Oso. It's weird that vezo would agree if he felt that Tasky was being given a pass. Another important point here is his last sentence of this post. He asked Friend if he was scumbuddies with Tasky even though his last post had just been unvoting Tasky. No additional evidence was brought forth by anyone (including vezo) and Tasky hadn't even posted since vezo's previous post, so it couldn't be anything he said. If he really agreed with Oso and wasn't just sheeping, why did he switch in this post? Note: This point was originally brought up by Friend.

ISO 7: Claims that he usually reads preview posts after he posts (

either lying or telling the truth about being negligent

). Mentions that avatars aren't shown in preview posts (

??? Tasky asked why the avatars mattered, but... no understandable reason given. I still have no clue what it means.

). Asks Friend for top 2 suspects.

ISO 8: Answers Tasky's questions about the SSBF post and says he didn't know about SSBF's post until afterward. No response to Friend's picks.

ISO 9: Responds to Friend's claim of fake scumhunting by saying Friend is now in the town pile (

possibly true or possibly just trying to appease Friend

). Responds to my points by saying his phone rang in the middle of his post and the "noob pass" thing is a coincidence (

again possible, but I think that both being coincidences is unlikely

).

ISO 10: Says he suspects people one at a time and people usually suspect him when he doesn't have a PR and is uncced. Also insists it was two coincidences.

ISO 11: "Analyzes" (

in quotes since I'm not sure that one line or a couple words about each person should be considered a true analysis

) wagon. Claims Friend defended Tasky (

which was already mentioned multiple times... more sheeping?

). Claims I'm pushing wagon for out of game reasons (

again, someone else's words/more possible sheeping

). Says we are the possible 3 scum (

I'm unfamiliar with these minis and their setups, so... are there usually 3 scum or is it usually random or what?

). Votes me, saying my last few posts are incredibly scummy.

Again, no reasoning behind why Tasky is scummy after the unvote inspired by Oso. As for Friend, wasn't Friend in vezo's town pile according to vezo's second last post? Once more, no reason for the switch (unless the reason is "defending" the scum-for-some-unknown-reason Tasky). Also, the only original thought in that whole post (and in most of vezo's posts) was that the 3 of us may all be scum together, which I'm not sure is even possible. Now, I'm just going to quote the last one I wanted to mention.

I questioned enough people to know what should I do

tonight

.
Don't start to ask me things like this.

(bolding added by KageLord)

O.O O.O O.O

Well, this is either everything or nothing. I can think of only one logical explanation that doesn't involve vezo being a PR (scum or town), though it does involve some strange wording on vezo's part. However, I don't want to say it and I don't want anyone else, other than vezo, to. So, vezo, what did you mean by the bolded? Plus, I'm not sure who you actually questioned here, other than asking Friend his top suspects.

[KageLord]

Excuse the double post, but I would like to know the usual setups thing for Minis that I mentioned in ISO 11. Most importantly, I'm just wondering about the typical number of scum (or if there is no typical number).

[KageLord]

Those are the points he made that I believe where he tries to link vezo's behavior as scummy.
Notice the bolded parts. In every one of those, except his points on ISO 11, he gives himself an out. Look at the wording "I think...but call it null' - 'seems like..but give benefit of the doubt' - 'possibly true or....' - 'again possible...is unlikely'. No matter what vezo's alignment turns out to be, he's given himself an out on all major points. "See, I told he was scum" or "I said right here in the game that I thought I could be wrong"

Looking back on the wording you mention, you are correct that I seem unsure of myself quite a bit. But, there is (I believe) a good reason for that. The reason is that I

am

unsure. I know most scumhunters like to make themselves out to be completely confident in their cases, but I just don't do that when I'm not 95% or more sure. With vezo, I'm more like 80% sure, but he seems to be the lead candidate to me so far. I'm not purposely wording it like that to give myself an out. If he is lynched and he flips town, you can consider me completely wrong as if I said I was 100% sure. Sound good?

If you really want to see if that is really my playstyle or not, Newbie 937 is a finished game where I was town and you can see that I was quite hesitant there too, even when I really thought I had something. In fact, if anything, that game might have made me even more hesitant considering how it was ending with me suspecting the wrong person going into the final 3.

Then there is his point on ISO 4, giving vezo the benefit of the doubt on sheeping. Then in his commentary between his points on ISO 5/6 and ISO 7 he throws this in:

....If he really agreed with Oso and wasn't just sheeping,...

I thought he was giving vezo the benefit of the doubt there about vezo following me off the Tasky vote? But look at his words in his point on ISO 11 "...which was already mentioned mutiple times...more sheeping?" To me, it is obviously he just threw that whole giving vezo the benefit of the doubt into his first point about sheeping so he could be seen as making a fair assessment of vezo's play so far. He certainly didn't give vezo the benefit of the doubt on anything it seems.

First of all, "Tasky"? I think you're getting the wagonees a bit mixed up.

To answer this questioning, for me, the "benefit of the doubt" means that I won't assume the worst, but it doesn't mean I'm going to sweep it under the rug either. And, that benefit of the doubt was only given for the first instance. For example, if a player in the World Cup performed what may be considered a purposeful late tackle but not certainly one, the official might not give a yellow card for it, giving the player the benefit of the doubt and assuming he did it on accident. If the same player seems to do it again, will the official act as if the first one never happened and act as if this was the first time? That is highly unlikely. It is likely that he will recall the first incident and, seeing it's similar to this one, give a yellow card this time (and if it happens again, it becomes two yellows or red). Well, in our game, the offense seemed to happen 3 times (not including the possible SSBF one). He had already received his "yellow", but that doesn't seem to stop him from doing it again in ISO 11, earning a "red".

Sorry if that analogy just seems completely stupid to any of you. It makes sense in my head. What I'm basically saying is that even though something is given the benefit of the doubt, if similar things happen again (and again), that first offense can be looked at again and that benefit can be revoked.

He started off good by going after vezo for an emerging pattern that may have well had merit. He ended by being so eager to pile every little piece of crap he could find onto vezo that he become scummy in my eyes no matter if the original thought might have had some merit to it. His post I have quoted above is a post that is meant to lynch a player. Not scummy at all doing that, but because of the way he gave himself an out on the major points of his argument to avoid consequences if vezo flips town or take a major portion of the credit if vezo flips scum, makes this into a post that only scum would use. Either to kill a townie with deniability or get credit for a bussing.

My vote is already on KageLord and there it will stay. We have nine days to deadline so there is plenty of time so I urge all of you to read what he has said so far in Isolation and then in context and see what you think.

I will say this right out. This post is meant to get KageLord lynched. He's the lynch for the day in my opinion.

So again, if vezo is lynched and by some strange twist flips town, I don't (and didn't) want to use those words for deniability. Treat it as if I was sure and using the same conviction as Oso here. Now, I have a couple things I want to clear up about Oso, but I want to make it clear that I would rather see vezo lynched today than anyone else so far, unless Oso can't come up with anything reasonable against what I say (which I think is unlikely). But, if vezo is lynched (today or ever) and flips scum, I'm (if I'm still alive, that is) going to be looking very closely into Oso for possible Chainsaw Defense (note: he can't really be considered for CD right now since vezo hasn't flipped yet, but this is just thoughts for a possible future).
_________________________________________________________________________

most everything has washed null or scum/town tells in equal parts. Except vezo. Don't care about alignment there at the moment because a lot of conversation is being generated around him.

Don't care right now if he's town or scum

, I have no interest in lynching him today.

This just screams "scum" to me. I would care if anyone is town or scum at any point in a game. Even if I'm in the heat of going after someone I believe to be scum, if I find someone else that is even more likely to be scum (I know this hasn't been proven about vezo to Oso's satisfaction, but saying you don't care...), I'll drop my current case for the moment and nab the new one. Saying that you don't care if someone is scum does not seem town to me at all.

Now, Oso, one thing that I am wondering about is why you put Tasky in the town category, even though you pretty much say that you think he has been doing things entirely wrong but with no maliciousness, yet you find maliciousness in my case or method against vezo. Is it just the part about me using words of uncertainty or is it to do with my previous assertion about the 6 minutes thing? Either way, it could be that they made you think my play style was flawed or my logic on some points was weak (or downright non-existent), but I can't see why it would necessarily be "malicious". And, for the record, Tasky is in my town pile as well and has been for most of the game.

Also, vezo, I would like to see you answer the points I mentioned in my post of your ISOs, please. I want to see your answers to all of them, but I am especially anxious to see the answer to the point mentioned between ISO 5/6 and ISO 7 about what looks like backpedaling on Tasky, which was originally brought up by Friend but never answered by you.

And as an extra little bit to add to my case against vezo that I just noticed is that diddin also gave Tasky the famous "noob pass" in post 99, just after Friend's point about the backpedaling, but this was never mentioned by vezo. I would think that if vezo was really suspicious of these noob passes, vezo would have said something to/about diddin. In post 92, vezo had just said he suspected Friend and Tasky of being scum buddies after Friend gave Tasky a noob pass (still not sure why vezo still suspected Tasky). Why would vezo not also suspect diddin for the same thing?

[KageLord]

The point where I say you are leaving yourself an out and you counter that you are just showing uncertainty, sorry, I have found it to be a reliable scumtell.

As to Tasky, he and you are quite a bit different as while I may not agree with his style of play and methodology, I just don't see him as malicious (and by that I mean blatant scum behavior) at the moment. I do see your attack on vezo as malicious for the reasons stated in Post #191 and the post where I voted you.

As to why I don't care if vezo is scum or town now? Because I don't. Whatever his alignment is, I believe that his drawing a lot of heat, whether he intended to or not, has exposed scum. Namely you. If you get lynched and I am proved right, then I have no problem seeing if it can be done again tomorrow using vezo and I still won't care what alignment he is. If the conversation surrounding vezo keeps drawing out scum, I'm in favor of keeping him around until it doesn't. Then I'll consider looking at his alignment.

Well, not sure what I can say about the first thing. I can't really tell you to stop thinking something is a scumtell. If the meta doesn't change your thoughts about that at all, I guess I can't say anything more about that.

The last part still seems like something scum might say to me. Even if you somehow honestly believe that people suspecting vezo will out themselves as scum so it's useful to keep him around, you should obviously still care if he's scum or not. I can understand from what you said here why you might not want to lynch vezo, but remaining ignorant to someone's alignment

never

seems like something a townie would want.

I scum hunt very weird and change my opinion quickly.

Is that your defense to your alleged backpedaling on Tasky?

[KageLord]

@xvart: So I caught something immediately after I posted. Again, what's wrong with that?

Forced? How so?

I'm just trying to show that doubleposting is not a scumtell.

I never said doubleposting was a scumtell. And the fact that you said you caught something after you posted when there was

a minute in between

posts is interesting.

xvart.

I advise you not to try this. Remember what happened to me when I tried to bring time into it? I'm surprised Oso didn't already mention this though.

Also, even I, the infamous time-watcher, see no significance in just 1 minute in between posts for something like that.

[KageLord]

Tasky, what is this point system you are using for ISO's of people? Is it of your own creation or is it a universal point system from somewhere? If it's something you just created, it's subject to bias and I'd take it with a grain of salt.

yeah, of course it's subjective...
it's a way to show how scummy I evaluate different posts... so that my logic is clearer and if there is something you don't agree with it's easier to discuss about it...

I noticed this in the other game and I have to say I like it too. It reminds me of chess analysis. Anyway, I didn't want to rip off your idea, which is why I didn't do something similar.

And needless to say, I agree the conclusion to your ISO analysis.

[KageLord]

I would be ok with a vezok lynch today. I still think SSBF looks scummier, but vezok certainly has a good enough case against him to be lynched today.

If you believe this, why aren't you voting vezo?

At the time, I thought Oso's thing on tasky was solid, so I voted him. I unvoted because vezo was acting scummier and Tasky started acting a lot more pro-town.

If that was your reasoning, why not vote vezo again? Didn't you leave the vezo wagon because it was moving too fast and you wanted to reexamine it? Well, in my mind, vezo has not given a satisfactory answer yet for the backpedaling on the Tasky vote (which was a main reason you voted vezo in the first place, if I'm not mistaken). I would think that's enough for a vote again now that we seem to have reached a bit of a standstill and the deadline is a few days away.

And vezo, I'm sorry for your loss.

[KageLord]

EBWOP: The last sentence of that post has nothing to do with the game, in case someone gets confused.

[KageLord]

I would be ok with a vezok lynch today.

I still think SSBF looks scummier

, but vezok certainly has a good enough case against him to be lynched today.

If you believe this, why aren't you voting vezo?

See underlined text.

Aye, I can see that, but unless something major changes, it doesn't look like an SSBF lynch is happening today. If things stay like this, we will just end up with a no lynch today, which is definitely in the favor of scum. We have about 4 and 3/4 days left, so not a major rush yet, but getting closer.

[KageLord]

Unvote: Vote: Humble Poirot


Humble is 100% scum, confirmed..B4 you all ask me how and why I AM 10000% about this..I will not roleclaim.....also after he is lynched and flips scum, please can I get protected tonight for obvious reasons, thanks...1 scum down!

I'm sorry, but what? How do you know he's 100% confirmed scum? You haven't brought up further scummy acts that Friend/Humble Poirot has done and I find it ridiculous that anyone would have proof that a person is scum, unless you're part of the scum faction yourself. What are you going to say if "obvious scum" flips town?

Well, it seems to me (might be wrong here) jay here is basically claiming some sort of sweet role. So either he's scum doing a terrible gambit or he has some role I've never heard of (a distinct possibility, since this is my first non-newbie game, so I have to look up every role I hear about other than cop, doc, or RB).

It doesn't really seem to me that not revealing your role is going to make a difference. You're already asking for protection so how is any of that going to change whether or not you reveal your role? Something is not right about this, especially considering it is day one... Are you a lyncher?

xvart.

After looking up "lyncher", I think this is probably it. If you look at jay in ISO, you'll notice he has only 5 posts and of the 2 or 3 that have actual content, he makes it clear right off the bat that he's after Friend. I don't think it's a coincidence (since Friend = Humble Poirot now). I don't know how else he could be so sure (unless he was scum).

[KageLord]

Glad to have you here, Poirot, and I really like some of those points in that big post (though I may be a bit biased). However, I'm not sure why you chose to unvote and vote quadz. With the deadline getting closer and the possibility of a no lynch, why vote for someone that's probably not going to get lynched today?

But before getting to Poirot's question, I'm wondering about this:

@xvart:
It's that and some gut feeling. He and vezok look scummiest to me right now. SSBF's grasping of straws and dislike of defense of others comes across as scummier to me than vezok's short posts. Not by a huge stretch, but still more. But like I said, I'm willing to lynch either.

We need to ensure that we lynch someone; D1 ends in 3 days. I will switch my vote to KageLord if the deadline comes up and my vote is needed on him to ensure a lynch today; that is a significantly better option than allowing a NL. I say this so that (if it comes to it) everyone understands why I did it, and so people can inform me if that's a terrible idea.

quadz, you start off by saying, as you have been recently, that you think SSBF is scummiest followed by vezo. I'm wondering why you say in your next paragraph that you would switch to me to prevent a no lynch. I was just tied with vezo in votes, until Poirot unvoted, so more on either one of us would probably result in that person being lynched (if you switch to vezo, someone else will probably do the same). If vezo is the second scummiest to you and you would be willing to lynch him or SSBF as you say above, why switch to me instead of him?

___________________________________________________

Question to all: How many scum do you think there are?

If you want me to comment about anything particular of the last 10 pages say so. I was happy to see I agreed with many things with my former self, friend.

Some more things about me:
- I oppose to rulebook scumtells or strategies. Nothing is set on stone.
- I'll defend people if I think they're town.
- Motives are crucial to me. "Why would A do B in that context?"
I promise I won't do more eternal posts like this one. I just had to catch up.

I really can't even guess at how many scum we have in this game. I'm still getting used to the multitude of setups in non-newbie games, but I hear that there are usually 3 scum in these games, so if I had to say something, I suppose I would go with 3 until we see evidence that points to something else.

I naturally agree with that third thing a lot, but I am starting to go away from it. People tend to think (with some good reason) that there is too much WIFOM involved when trying to look at motives like that. Also, that reasoning almost caused me to make a mistake in my first actual newbie game because of that WIFOM (I didn't end up making that mistake since I stopped to think about if scum wanted me to think that way, but... we still lost).

[KageLord]

Seriously, those who are voting Kagelord for Oso's reasons, need to answer me what they think about quadz08

. It just doesn't make sense. On top of that, why would you choose Kagelord over someone who you claimed to be suspicious of, like vezok. Just saying that any lynch satisfies you and that you will do whatever "you guys" want.

No, they don't. Do your own work. If you think that the reasons are bogus, attack the reasons and the person who first made them. Then worry about who might have followed along.

I don't like this argument either. This basically looks like you don't care if a wagon might be pushed because scum are jumping on it. One of the easiest ways to find scum is to examine wagons like that. Now, how do we know if someone voting on a wagon is scum or town? Well, we can't really know for sure until they flip, but a great way to increase or decrease suspicion is to examine their reasons behind voting. If they don't give a reason, that is scummy. If they give a good reason, that is more townish. However, if the only reason they give is "gut" or "don't like his posts" or just an exact mimic of someone else's reason, that is very scummy. So, let's let them answer for themselves, hm?

This is basically why you will keep being my first suspect for a long time. You're basically excusing yourself of all responsibility (Oso, are you reading this? Isn't this the same thing Kage allegedly do and cause you to vote him?).

Yes I am, and is one of the reasons he hasn't gotten a full on town read from me. Again back to the whole impression thing. I think KageLord is doing it scummily, quadz, no. Just because I think one player is scummy for doing something it doesn't necessarily follow that I suspect another player as scummy because they are doing the same thing. Logic is good. For me it is useless by itself without stepping back and trying to figure out the 'why' of the situation. That requires assigning motivations based on gut and overall impressions on where I think the player(s) is going with their posts.

Okay, so you're saying that a big part of the case against me is subjective (based on your gut feeling and impression)? That may be alright for your case, but I don't know how that could explain the other peoples' votes. Did they also have the exact same subjective thoughts? If their reasons so far were the same as yours, they would have to have just happened to think the same way and disregard quadz or the case against vezo.

________________________________________________

Just so you all know, I am now about 85% sure that vezo and Oso are scumbuddies. I've mentioned some things about Oso that strike me as scummy and most of them have been related to vezo. If I had to say what I think was going on in this game, I would say that vezo got caught early on and Oso had to come up with some way to help vezo without appearing to be purposely helping him. To accomplish that, he picked on a part of my case that seemed particularly weak or open to exploitation and tried (successfully) to get a wagon going on me. Obviously, this would mean that vezo noticed this and hopped on board with his buddy. The only part I'm still mulling over is q21's place in all of this. I put q21 at mostly neutral at the moment, with a few toes on the scummy side.

I was planning on waiting to actually voice the increased suspicion of Oso (and possibly q21) until later, but there very well may not be a later for me. If I don't get lynched today, I have a feeling I'll get NKed (possibly for this very post). So, in that event I urge all townies to watch Oso (and vezo if he's still alive) VERY closely.

_____________________________________________

Edit after preview: Again, I think a vezo lynch would provide just as much, if not more, information as my lynch. The vezo lynch has the added bonus of having a firm case against the lynchee other than "gut" and "information". If you're so adamant on getting that information, Oso, and you don't care whether vezo is scum or town, why not lynch vezo and use that in your case against me (and possibly Poirot as well) in the unlikely event that he flips town? Since you already got some attention in this wagon, imagine how much support you could get if the one I focused the most on was a townie.

[KageLord]

@KageLord

- Read the information below. Do you really feel that your suspicions of vezok outweigh quadz's logic for his lynch preferences? If you think quadz is justified in his preference, why do you think quadz believes vezok is more suspicious than me? Also, why is your case stronger than what I have outlined?
xvart.

First off, I will agree with you that there seems to be something off in quadz's lynch list logic as you presented it. I will have to go back and look at his reasoning to make sure it's not a misrep though. But even if it is actually all the reasoning he gave, that still only puts him at about 3rd or 4th in my list. Bad (or just absent) logic can come from town just as much as scum. Still, when it is related to their voting choices, perhaps it should be regarded as a bit suspicious. Because I don't believe that it is a strong scumtell, I still think the case (not just mine, but all that has been brought up so far) against vezok is stronger.

Now that is out I have a question for KG before I actually go so far as to unvote him.

Why did you post this:

Well, this is either everything or nothing. I can think of only one logical explanation that doesn't involve vezo being a PR (scum or town), though it does involve some strange wording on vezo's part. However, I don't want to say it and I don't want anyone else, other than vezo, to. So, vezo, what did you mean by the bolded? Plus, I'm not sure who you actually questioned here, other than asking Friend his top suspects.

And never follow up on it?

I didn't follow up on it because vezok's response was a possible one. The logical explanation I mentioned in that post was that vezok meant "tonight" as in real-time and not in-game. That is the explanation that vezok ended up giving, so I dropped it. But, now that vezok has seemingly softclaimed since then, my original assumption about the meaning of vezok's post makes a lot more sense. The only question now is what to do about it.

And with all this talk about jay, I'm wondering what is up with him too. I still think it's likely that he's a lyncher.

[KageLord]

Don't want to get accused of trying to rush things but:

From totallynotmafia's lats votal: Deadline is July 26, 10:30 AM (GMT + 10:00).

Unless I have completely hosed up the time conversion, that is just about 24 hours from now.

If it gets within an hour or two of deadline and it looks like things will stay like this, I'll hammer quadz to avoid no lynch.

[KageLord]

A no NK Night 1?

Wonderful.

I mean it is good as we have no dead townie but we also have no usable information from the night really.

1 - Mafia decided not to kill.
2 - Mafia hit a bulletproof role.
3 - Doctor made a successful save.
(those are the three I can come up with off the top of my head that don't complicate my thinking too much)

Don't expect much out of me for the next day or so. Going to back and completely tear apart Day 1 and see if I can get any of those three options to make sense. Or perhaps add other options to it.

Is there actually a role like #2? Roughly how common is it (you could just say uncommon or rare or something like that if you don't feel comfortable giving a guesstimate)?

@Diddin (sorry can't let this go by) why Friend replaced out of this game

DOESN'T BELONG HERE AS ANY SORT OF EVIDENCE OF ALIGNMENT

. Unless you absolutely know why he replaced out, then it still doesn't belong in the thread at least in my opinion.

I agree.

This weak suspicion against Poirot by Tazaro and diddin soon after Night is unsettling. I can't tell if there's any malice behind it though since they are very non-committal about it (whether because they are scum or just unsure). Suffice it to say, for the moment at least, there is no case there. "He seems to be intelligent" and speculation on Friend's reason(s) for leaving this game are terrible reasons to suspect him.

For the moment, I'll say that I'm feeling a bit better about Oso thanks to his late D1 posts. In my book, he's moved up to just plain neutral. I am even more unsure now about vezok though. A lot of this stuff against him could be blamed on just bad (if you don't want to give me that, then at least awkward) town play. I am just sort of unwilling to give him that free ride though since his play could just be somewhat bad scum play as well. If he doesn't show improvement here as far as scumhunting efforts go, I would still be willing to try for his lynch D2.

And xvart, I hope the hat was tasty.
_________________________________________

Preview edit:

1 - Possible, although I can't figure out why they would. Best I could come up with is an NK immune Godfather they are setting up for a Iron Townie claim in case there is a Vig that happens to tag him and he doesn't die.

2 - No way in hell to tell at this point. Also, see number 1.

3 - Again possible and that's all I will say about except that if there IS a doc and you did protect someone last night, you might want to speak up if we if are going to lynch your protectee. Good chance with no night kill that you may have blocked a Mafia kill and we are about to lynch a townie.

1 - ... I'm going to have to look up all of those terms before I can even begin to understand that.

2 - See above.

3 - I was actually kind of afraid of this logic. I mean, it seems logical that the doc should speak up if a townie is about to be lynched, but I'm not sure that it should be that black and white. If the doc speaks up in that scenario and it makes us change our minds about the lynch (and give the doc a free pass too, of course), it could turn out that the scum just chose to no-kill N1 and the doc just saved a scum and put himself in front of a bullet N2. This becomes even worse then once we see that it was actually the doc, which means he would probably be telling the truth about saving someone N1 and we would further discount that person as a suspect. There is another possibility that turns out pretty badly for town too, but I think it's best to hold on to that one in case something like it actually happens. Basically, what I'm getting at is that I think the doc should only claim and save his protectee from being lynched if he is confident that this person isn't actually scum that just no-killed.

[KageLord]

The Humble reread is coming, I have Band Camp today and WILL do it this evening. Trust me on this one. The reason I'm rereading Humble is my only read on him in the past was town, but that read wasn't a very strong one. I like to have better reads D2 than D1.

Seriously?
Are you kidding me?
You are now trying to deflect the wagon from you to Hubmle?
Half of the people here consider him town. I don't want him lynched.

This isn't working today diddin.

Vote diddin

This seems like a bandwagon vote to earn town points to me. Obviously this read will probably include bias since I already suspected vezok, but this doesn't seem legitimate to me at all. There is virtually no threat on Humble to be lynched at this point. Furthermore, diddin hasn't even committed to Humble yet. All he has said is that he will reread him (albeit for weak reasons). I don't see how that could possibly be him "deflecting the wagon... to Humble". As far as I know, deflecting a wagon requires you to raise some point(s) about someone and definitely to vote them. So it either is a really weak deflect from diddin or a weak vote from vezok. I think the latter is more likely.

Vote: vezokpiraka

[KageLord]

diddin and KageLord, engaged in tag-teaming vezo, a weak player? I believe it.

... Clearly you haven't actually read the thread yet or you just choose to ignore it. I've been against vezok for almost the entire game. The case against vezok has been laid out several times over the course of the game and his D2 actions have only added something else on. To me, almost none of the case against vezok has been properly resolved/cleared. As for diddin's actions, I can't really say anything about why he's voting, but he has given a plausible enough reason above (I'll have to check his earlier opinions on vezok a bit though).

But you know, I had a town read on Tasky early in this game. However, with Tazaro's play since he replaced, I'm thinking neutral leaning scum. At this point I think he is either frustrating town or easy scum. Still, this suspicion won't detract from my focus on vezok.

[KageLord]

@Aranneas: Honestly, I wanted others to cobble together what information they could derive from the lynch. As a replacement, I'm not the one who is most equipped to do that.

If the information lynch was for our benefit, don't you think you could have waited and just let me (or someone else that was in the game for the whole thing) hammer near deadline so that we could get more discussion in and perhaps save an innocent? Information lynching when you replace into a game and want others to use the information instead of you seems like a pretty bad policy.

[KageLord]

Geez... a lot (admittedly some of it was fluff or pursuing questioning) has been said in the past 24 hours. I have read all of it up until now, but I will definitely need to read some of it again to actually get much out of it. Humble's posts here were actually did make me pretty sad about how the game has been going so far. And, without some of the harsher words, I found that many of his points here were the exact ones that I was thinking when I was initially reading these pages. Though he is clearly emotional about Aran, he does a good job of calling him out on some of his biggest BS. My thoughts on jay after his famous post (and a bit of info from the rest of you about possible roles) was that he was almost certainly a lyncher. As Aran entered, I was surprised by his not mentioning Friend/Humble and considered that I might have been wrong and he might have a different role. Clearly, Aran's recent posts about Humble have bolstered my original belief that he is a lyncher. If not for jay, one or two points of Aran's case and the whole neighbor situation may have made me spend a good deal of time investigating Humble, but as it is, he remains solid town in my book.

Now, on the topic of Tazaro, I actually consider him my second or third scummiest read at this point. The reasons I would give have already been said many times over. His refusal to even consider that vezok may be scum instead of just VI (an annoyingly hurtful term for someone, though I can sometimes understand its necessity), his "informational" hammer without having read the thread (he claims he just missed my saying I would hammer, but seems to also have missed other peoples' similar statements and my feelings toward vezok D1), and his sometimes apparent sheeping and possible attempt to buddy up to (one of) our lead scumhunter(s) would be the main ones.

As for diddin, I had been rethinking his position in my reads while reading some of the stronger points of the case against him, but for the moment I see no reason to disbelieve his claim.

Preview edit:

OMG... I want vezok lynch so bad it hurts.

@Everyone (other than vezok):

As a favor to me, would you say what you think of vezok's alignment and why? Also, please state whether you would be open to a vezok lynch for D2 or not.

[KageLord]

I will wait and see what other people say first. If it seems the majority of people want me to claim, I will. If not, I'll keep it a secret for now. All that is known is that I'm a town PR (there are a bunch of those) or a scum RB (though I don't see why a scum RB would pick Oso over the softclaimed vezok). I'm pretty sure that fully revealing myself here would not help the town, though it may be of

some

use to do so on a later day.

Anyway, since I'm pretty sure that Mafia Watcher is a very uncommon role, if ever used, I'll

unvote

[KageLord]

since I'm pretty sure that Mafia Watcher is a very uncommon role, if ever used, I'll

unvote

Is it any more uncommon than town jailkeeper? Unvoting vezo, I see. And I'm very much seeing a KageLord and diddin night one discussion in the mix of this Oso-targetting that was done by KageLord.

Yeah, I would say it is actually. Out of the 6 or so games I have seen (not including this one obviously), I have seen a town jailkeeper in one and mafia watcher in none. Although, I will admit that this is a very limited test sample. So if I'm wrong about that, then I urge someone to correct me. But I'm surprised that you're the one doing it. You never seemed to approve of my case on vezok and have been constantly asserting your belief vezok is VI, but now that I've unvoted, my premise is flawed?

And there's no real way (one that doesn't involve a bunch of speculation) for anyone to defend against an accusation like that. But okay, if you have that opinion, what do you think my role is? If me and diddin are scumbuddies, any thoughts on why we would decide to target him and what role we could have used to target but not kill him? Also, why not target the softclaimed vezok if it's an RB or similar?

[KageLord]

Double post: Actually, after looking both roles up on the mafiascum wiki, they are both listed as only pro-town in their alignments (which was my point). And it does make a good deal of sense. I don't know why there would be a scum jailkeeper since, for them, a roleblocker (and optional no-kill) would be the same thing. That's why diddin's not automatically cleared even though his claim does sort of fit with what happened in the game. There is still the possibility that he somehow planned to "be forced to" claim and that's why scum no-killed. But, for now, I think I'll look at it as if he was telling the truth.

[KageLord]

You'd look bad with still having a vote on vezo if people came to believing him. And it doesn't matter if you are saying you are changing your mind about vezo if you're mafia. I have no idea what your PM said you are able to do, but it's possible that either you or KageLord are a MAFIA jailkeeper (which is a possible role) or you could just be mafia that have the power to nightkill. Another thing is, diddin was seemingly trying to posture himself to try to attack the good standing of one of his neighbors, Poirot, so targetting the other neighbor Oso with a nightkill and flipping him as town makes Poirot more likely to be seen as scum.

So... if I am getting this right, your theory at the moment is that me and diddin are scumbuddies and I was targeting Oso with an NK to make him flip town and somehow put suspicion on Humble (who I've been agreeing with for the majority of his time in this game) instead of diddin, but something stopped me from an NK on Oso? I just want to get this straight before moving on...

[KageLord]

You'd look bad with still having a vote on vezo if people came to believing him. And it doesn't matter if you are saying you are changing your mind about vezo if you're mafia. I have no idea what your PM said you are able to do, but it's possible that either you or KageLord are a MAFIA jailkeeper (which is a possible role) or you could just be mafia that have the power to nightkill. Another thing is, diddin was seemingly trying to posture himself to try to attack the good standing of one of his neighbors, Poirot, so targetting the other neighbor Oso with a nightkill and flipping him as town makes Poirot more likely to be seen as scum.

You want me to agree with the fact that YOU were agreeing with Humble? So what? That's a red herring; I was talking about diddin's (not your) posturing to try to attack Humble on day two, which he quickly retracted and changed his purpose for rereading into reconfirming his town read on Humble. You could be the real MAFIA jailkeeper, KageLord, and targetting Oso would make sense since you may figure that he's a neighbor with a power role, and nightkilling Oso would make the neighbor count go down to two, and with Oso's flipping scum, Poirot could suspect diddin and target diddin with arguments and you guys would have no option to target Oso because you killed him. diddin's saying he has nothing on Poirot indicates that he cannot handle an argument from Poirot and counterargue. Poirot would win that argument and diddin would not fare well from that.

You are clearly making (at least) two different arguments/guesses here. At the end of the first one, you say that a scum team of me and diddin would target Oso with an NK so that Poirot would be more likely to be seen as scum (already flawed logic here since I would think it far more likely that diddin would be taken down in that case... there is virtually nothing on Humble, compared with an almost lynch on diddin). In this second post, you say that we would not try to NK Oso because then Humble would suspect diddin and outargue him. Those are two opposing ideas. Wild guesswork works even less if you are switching between wild guesses.

I can't vouch for diddin's reasoning on his reread of Humble or any of that since it's frankly not my concern. I have no actual link to him, so if you want to hunt him (with legitimate reasoning, of course) then be my guest. But, since your premise is that me and diddin are scumbuddies, how would it make sense for him to "posture himself to attack" Humble if I clearly have a solid town read on him? If we wanted to attack Humble, wouldn't it make sense for us to agree with Aran (who has provided the longest case against Humble)? Your premise of diddin and me as scumbuddies trying to posture to attack Humble is just nonsense.

Quick question: would a mafia jailkeeper's power prevent himself from NKing the person he is jailing?

[KageLord]

I would posit that if he's jailing someone then that someone is protected from any actions, even a mafia nightkill. And I was saying that attacking Humble can very well be a losing battle. But diddin's claiming to want to reread Humble based on the FLIMSY reason of Friend's replacing out is, and then seeing nothing is wrong with Humble, is fishy

Yes, we can agree that diddin's reasoning there was suspicious. This has been said a couple of times already. I don't know how that involves me though. The only link I can see that you've given so far is that we both voted for vezok early D2. And that's about the worst scumbuddy link I have ever seen.

Preview edit: xvart, as far as I know, I wasn't roleblocked and my role wasn't tampered with. Saying more though would not be beneficial to town. I may be able to say something about what happened tomorrow, if I'm still alive.

[KageLord]

Unvote, Vote Tazaro

I tipped when he unvoted diddin, then FoSed diddin in his very next post. Its just the culmination of an endless stream of self contradictions, not paying attention to his own posts - let alone others', fluff and nonsensical conspiracy theories. He has to go.

This was actually my thinking as I read what I had missed today. I was already leaning, but today's additional conspiracy theory (Oso + diddin), his idea of people voting me to pressure a full claim (ignoring my claim that it would only hurt town), and the clear AtE have pushed me over the edge on this matter (might be additionally that I know all of his stuff on me is wrong). He's right about one thing. We should lynch him.

Vote: Tazaro

And Oso, I'm sorry you feel that way about my semi-claim position right now, but please be patient. It is very likely that I will end up fully claiming either D3 or D4 if I make it that far.

[KageLord]

I feel the same way about your semi-claim position as Oso did; is he ignoring your claim, too? He wanted to lynch somebody; I wanted to pressure somebody. And who are you parroting about additional "conspiracy theory," who first said that term? Hive mentality much? The diddin and KageLord theory was my thinking. Should I just keep quiet?

That was just one point on the agenda. By itself, it means very little. It is only when a little thing is coupled with a few other possibly bigger things that it has more meaning. And Oso clearly didn't ignore my claim since he flat-out stated earlier that he didn't care too much at the time if it hurt town. He responded directly to what I said.

And if it's a baseless theory, I would suggest you do keep quiet, yes.

I never mentioned anything about Sotty before the claim because I figured at the time he is more likely to be town than scum. However, Tazaro's buddying with Sotty at this point is starting to change that and I'm not completely discounting Sotty as scum. If Tazaro flips town I have an eye on q21 as I don't like how he came in and just voted Tazaro without commenting on any of the claims and very little of the recent going-on.

Could you specify what he's exactly buddying with Sotty on? I didn't notice much of that going on. What I saw was more of him trying to get in with Humble (pointing something out and hoping Humble can make a strong point out of it, probably giving him town cred for pointing it out). Not surprisingly, this didn't slip past Humble's attention though he didn't pursue it much.

[KageLord]

KageLord has a role. I have no idea what his role is.
Don't rush the Oso waogn. Wait for KageLord to come back. If he is a cop or something like that he will object to the wagon.
Until then...

Unfortunately, I can't object to the wagon on the basis of my role. But, just as a town player, I would much rather have a Tazaro lynch today. 51% for thinking he's scum and 49% for policy. But, let's wait for a vote count and Humble's post before switching votes anymore.

I think it's possible that KageLord roleblocked Oso's attempt at nighkilling and diddin did whatever he did or didn't do. diddin's real role is not certain, but this would mean that Poirot is the innocent neighbor who had TWO scum neighbors Oso and diddin.

Wait... is there a such thing as a town RB? Otherwise, it seems like you're implying that I'm either a scum RB that blocked my own NK buddy (this makes no sense to me at all) or that I'm another JK, but I targeted Oso (this is just impossible since vezok's watch worked, meaning there was no JK on him).

[KageLord]

You are telling us you are not a roleblocker, KageLord. Well, you targetted Oso, and I do not believe you have told us why or in what capacity you targetted him. Do you worry about being nightkilled, KageLord? Because you are not going to be able to inform us of anything when you are dead. Why did you target Oso, can you possible tell us that without revealing your role if you refuse to reveal that role?

Hm... I honestly don't think that I can reveal my reason for targeting him without revealing my role. And I do worry that I will be NKed, but honestly it won't matter if I am. The information I could give now is practically useless (for a reason I will reveal after the game). Although, if there is in fact a protective role other than the JK, I hope they would protect me tonight.

[KageLord]

All I can say is that, even though my role didn't let me know Oso's alignment, I think he is town right now and would rather see a Tazaro lynch.

[KageLord]

Wait... is there a such thing as a town RB?.....

That was a joke, right?

The world may never know... or you'll find out when if I flip if Tazaro was right or not. XD

[KageLord]

I am even more unsure now about vezok though. A lot of this stuff against him could be blamed on just bad (if you don't want to give me that, then at least awkward) town play. I am just sort of unwilling to give him that free ride though since his play could just be somewhat bad scum play as well. If he doesn't show improvement here as far as scumhunting efforts go, I would still be willing to try for his lynch D2.

Dude. Why would you be much more unsure about vezok? You were an important pusher of his lynch yesterday and now you are acting all shy about it.

I figured I might as well answer this before night.

Honestly, his being scum seemed too good to be true to me at that point. Sort of like the "so crazy it just might work" psychology. I figured that I would give him one more chance before pushing for him for another day. It was only his later claim that stopped me from ending the day on him. Mind you, he still might be a scum watcher, but lynching a known PR is always a dangerous game.

[KageLord]

Bah. Go town!

*Le Snippe*

[KageLord]

Good game, everyone. I hope quadz comes back so I can apologize for rallying everyone to his lynch. My only explanation, and Humble hit it pretty much on the head here. I had nailed scum on D1 in the last three games I had played, and my read on quadz was stronger than any of those reads; which is why I was so vehement about it.

Scum and Masons - will you share your QT?

xvart.

Apology accepted. I played pretty badly, to be fair. However, I must ask: how did the hat taste?

Lmao.

First off, thanks for the game, TNM. As we mentioned in the dead QT, awesome flavor!

@Town, Thank you soooooooooooo much for lynching vezok. I was afraid it wouldn't happen. About my softclaim: well, I honestly thought I would get doc-protected N2 or something else would prevent the kill. But, on the chance that I would be killed, I wanted to let town know afterward what my result was. The reason I didn't just come out and say anything was that a) I was kind of still hoping scum were naive and wouldn't kill me and b) I didn't know my sanity. As far as I know, I still may be naive cop. The only result I got was innocent Oso. I couldn't actually clear him (though in my mind, I mostly did) because of the sanity issue, but at least I'd get to let you know my result. I found it hilarious though when Oso mentioned the possibility of my insanity, considering that would make him scum.

@Scum, well played. I actually had Sotty as a town read in her first few posts. After that, I was just kind of leaning town on her. I only thought that she might be scum after Oso's explanation of the role-crossing with diddin. I want to be able to play scum like Sotty (or like I do in those town games where I put up strong cases on people and end up mislynching PRs >>).

The reason I actually picked Oso N1 instead of my biggest scumread vezok was that I honestly thought Oso was vezok's scumbuddy and when faced with the choice of who was more dangerous, it was obvious who I should pick. I wonder how different the game would have been had I picked vezok instead. Or how different it would have been if xvart had picked me N2. But still, I'm not complaining with how this one turned out. First win on the site (and third finished game)!

[KageLord]

@Kage: you talk about a dead QT and don't post the link!! That's evil!

P.S: Humble I'm a female, just an FYI

yeah, sorry. I have most things disabled and don't see the female icon (just a text which I pay no attention to). Your nick doesn't automatically give me any clue and I write in he/male by default.

Oh sure it does. You just have to know how to decrypt these things. Sotty sounds like shotty, which sounds like shawty, which is like a melody in my head, which obviously means it's a chick. [/lame]

Anyhow, more interesting, the dead QT.

[KageLord]

XD She can convert me any day.

[KageLord]

Yeah, as I said in the dead QT, I thought scum was going to win until the vezok lynch.

[KageLord]

The town was way overpowered.
Did the neighbors get randomly selected or did you choose to make the JK and the tracker in a night QT?

This was an impossible win for the scum but because of sotty 's death we lost right then.


Also TNM : Don't make the godfather do the kills. You should let other people to do stuff. Also because of the amount of power fake claiming is impossible.

It's true the town was overpowered, but it isn't as much as it seems like. For example, your watcher ability let you get rid of a cop before he got any good info and without putting you under too much suspicion. Also, having so many PRs makes town suspicious of them by default. If the xvart case could have been pushed more based on the 2 protective roles thing, he might have actually been lynched (bad luck that it had to be someone as town as xvart though... if the doc was q21, it probably would have ended in his lynch). I'm not saying scum weren't at a disadvantage, but it wasn't impossible.

And I would actually think that GF doing the kills is better. It makes it easier to explain if he gets tracked to the kill and the cop had already cleared him. He could claim a town PR. Besides, after cop death (assuming he hasn't already revealed info on GF), GF becomes a regular Goon.