Open 231: My Name is Earl (Game Over)
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Xite91 wrote:Hi XS!
Vote: XScorpion!
for trying to bring us out of RVS brfore I got my randomvote
Budja, explain
Aurorus , I see no buddying up, just him saying something random in RVS
Yeah, it is very (very) minor, but I think that so early on, saying things like "I tend to agree with the good colonel", shows a hint of pairing up.
I'm put at L-2 with no reasons? Fantastic.
RVS are good for generating discussions, so I think that even with an RV you should provide a random reason. If you just make the vote, it stunts any discussion. I may have been voted because of my RV reason - but that's good. Otherwise, we'd all have nothing to say.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Your questions are founded on a misinterpretation. I hardly think you can say I'm concerned. You'll notice that I'm not really posting much of a defence because itCol.Cathart wrote:
Random wagon is good in RVS, and in 9 people game, going at L-2 is not that hard either. But since it's a random wagon, it has about 1% of ending with an actual lynch, and yet you are concerned already. Why is that? Something to hide?AurorusVox wrote:I'm put at L-2 with no reasons? Fantastic.isRVS stage and at this point, there isn't any reason for anyone to get worried yet; you'll also notice I said it wasgoodthat votes are being formed due to RVS-generated discussion (and those votes are on me - hardly me being concerned when I'm commending the votes, is it?)THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Budja wrote:I could have generated a random reason but why bother.
Slightly uncomfortable with Aurorus now anyway, so consider my vote non-random. (yes, gut, but gut trumps random.)
Before you posted that, I had said:AurorusVox wrote:RVS are good for generating discussions, so I think that even with an RV you should provide a random reason. If you just make the vote, it stunts any discussion. I may have been voted because of my RV reason - but that's good. Otherwise, we'd all have nothing to say.
How can you ask "why bother?" when someone has already given a reason? In your post, why didn't you respond to the reason offered, rather than asking for a reason (which had already been given)? Unless you didn't read my post, in which case, how can you have a gut read on me if you're not reading my posts?
Budja, I'll ask directly; what do you think of the idea that RVS can generate discussion?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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This might be something to do with the fact that it's the first non-newbie game I've played and its a lot more active than what I'm used to in the newbie games xD I admit I was initially a little nervous that I went to L-2 in less than a day. But I know that it's nothing to be concerned about, because it's RVS and someone needs to get voted in order to get the game rolling, and so I didn't want to explicitly show my immediate reaction in my posts (head over heart). Perhaps it still filtered through, which is why I look shifty?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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I think there is a difference between the discussion generated from reasons, and that generated from a lack of reasons. The discussion of whether or not to put a reason along with a RV is a meta, game theory one, and can always be explained away as matter of a player's preference. By putting a reason along with a vote, it generates discussion about what a player has actually said, rather than their meta actions. You could say that the reactions to Budja's actions provide decent discussion topics; but then, this is discussion about other people, not about Budja or what he has said himself.d3x wrote:AV27- You're contending that not putting a reason stalls discussion, yet Budja not listing a reasonisa main focus of the discussion. Plz clarify.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Though this is true, do you feel that there are no legitimate cases that we can make along with our votes at the moment? (Clearly not, since you provided reasons afterwards.)Budja wrote:Unexplained votes have more pressure at this early stage where cases are quite scanty.
Do you feel withholding reasons for votes aids the town and hurts the scum?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Not really WIFOM though, is it?Adrien C wrote:
Probably referring that we would have to assume you are town in your post.Budja wrote:Also, you call that WIFOM? That doesn't make sense.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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To be fair to budja, you can vote someone for minor reasons to provide pressure, and build your case off of the resulting responses. Offering no reasons is...odd, since it doesn't allow the person to defend themselves. I guess it could cause them to get nervous. Also, notice that Beefster has voted budja without actually giving all of his reasons yet (this isn't necessarily a bad thing).
However, I too am uncomfortable with budja's voting pattern. Not convinced he's scum yet, but to me, his play is definitely worth paying close attention to.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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I mean that it might not be a legitimate scumtell becauseisn't unheard ofto use minor reasons to vote for someone to gauge their reactions (I've also done this in the past as town; as have other members of town in my previous games). But not providing any reasons is different, of course; it looks far scummier.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All Trades
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You've bolded two parts that come either side of a full-stop, so of course it's going to look like a contradiction, because they're talking about different things. The "to be fair to budja" part is referring to the rest of the sentence that follows immediately after it, about using minor reasons (which he did in his post after the vote). The "offering no reasons" part refers to the post in which he voted without offering his reason. They were separate posts (the vote and the explanation) and thus have been dealt with in two separate sentences.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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He has posted reasons:
To be clear, I'm not defending posting votes without reasons. I'm defending pressure votes accompanied by minor reasons because if people start moaning about using such lesser reasons, it lowers the chances of pressure votes providing a read on the player in question (when you explain its a pressure vote, the pressure tends to drop)Budja wrote:Here's a case for you:
1. assuming I am town. #20 (minor)
2.
^ wishy-washy statement. Says "Doesn't seem townie" but fails to vote me. Also, contradicts above.Beefster wrote:d3x: It doesn't really matter how arbitrary a reason is, as long as it's there. I suppose there's no real risk in the vote itself, but when combined with not even caring for even an arbitrary reason, it just doesn't seem townie to me.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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When re-reading, I came across this;
XScorpion, if you thought he was scummy (#50), why did you wait for someone else to vote Budja before you voted him yourself? Is it because you want to blend in with other people's votes?XScorpion wrote:Wagon go!
unvote
Vote: Budja
Vote: XScorpionTHE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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And why exactly do you suspect d3x? You've said that voting without a reason is scummy - and yet, your vote on d3x took place in the RVS stage. You've yet to provide a solid reason for why you want to lynch him.
If you suspect both, you could easily have switched your votes earlier, when you insinuated that you suspected budja for voting . But you didn't. You waited until someone else had voted before changing.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Re: Earl's claiming - no.
Re: massclaiming - again...no. Massclaiming on page 5, on d1? I really don't see how this would help anyone but scum. Sorely tempted to switch my vote to you, but I still have outstanding questions of XS.Xite91 wrote:@D3x - I know something that would make them claiming help me to catch scum. I'm actually fairly certain of the setup at the moment. Actually, the best way to catch scum would be a full role-claim in my opinion, because we know that there are only X amount of ways everything works. And if we do it now, scum have no way of having planned out how they were going to claim in the first place. I think if we did, we can win in 2 days easily.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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In your scenario, scum claims VT, we don't know who they are because other people also claim VT, our PRs are outed, and now scum know who to night kill.Xite91 wrote:I'm just saying that given possible outcomes, it would be near impossible for scum to claim anything (aside from VT) without giving themselves away. They do that and they're lynched, they don't and no counterclaims happen, we assume that power roles are legit, and can focus mainly on VTs to find scum.
I dunno, seems like a good plan to me, but I understand, you guys prefer the more... conventional way
We don't have to, I'm just saying that if we use our heads, that might be the best way to catch scum
I dunno, seems like anawfulplan to meTHE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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XScorpion wrote:
Blah blah blah more PR discussion. Yes, it makes sense for cops/docs to hide themselves. Now explain why it makes any sense for Xite to withhold information from town, without suggesting that he is a PR. What benefit could town possibly have from less information? I do not share the belief that a regular townie should know anything other than what the rest of town knows. Good townies should be as open as possible. Secrecy is scummy.Think about Cop having innocent result on someone.
I think people are being pedants about this whole thing. XS is talking about withholding your reasons for a vote, not withholding inno results and things like that. That said, I can understand that you might want to delay revealing your reads (town reads, for example), and I can understand wanting to see if other people pick up on why you think someone is scum - but it can turn around and bite the town in the ass if everyone votes without reasons, right? But by the same token, XS, remember that people haven't been withholding their reasons indefinitely.
Anyway,UnvoteTHE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Actually, thanks for asking. I've been working on figuring that out.nocase wrote:so aurorus, who are you fosing now?
I still have suspicions of XScorpion, but I agree some of what he's saying in his batch of posts about it being anti-town to hide voting reasons, so for now, I'm getting a slight townie vibe from him. Xite outwardly worries me the most, but I can't tell if that's just how he plays or if he's actually kamikaze scum ><
I don't really get why so many people find Beefster scummy. Well, at least that was true until his most recent post. I ISO'd him, and up until his most recent post, I had a neutral vibe from him, but I've now come across this;
After he voted for Budja, he said;
After d3x voted for XScorpion, he said;Beefster wrote:There's a difference between anti-town and scummy.
Beefster wrote:The line between scummy and anti-town is sketchy at best and the fact that you're attacking him over such a small semantic bothers me.
FoS: d3x
So the line is distinct enough to warrant a vote on Budja, but the line is not distinct enough to warrant a vote on XScorpion?Major FoS: Beefster
I'm aware that if I vote for Beefster, he will be at L-1, and I'm also aware that I'm going to be inactive for a few days. I think it would be best if I left my vote off until I come back. (What's the general policy on voting before V/LA's? I've never really gone V/LA before...)
(On that point:Mod, I might be V/LA until Sunday: well, I'm definitely not going to be posting on Wedensday, Friday or most of Saturday. I might get on Thursday, so I don't know if that's enough to warrant a V/LA but I wanted to mention it in case I can't actually get on til Sunday.)
Ok noted.Last edited by Scott Brosius on Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All Trades
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Wasn't my bolded major FoS enough for you? My top suspect is Beefster for his willingness to change how important he thinks the anti-town/scum distinction is dependent on whether he is attacking or defending.XScorpion wrote:I am reading.
He hasn't given a clear answer.
Oh, hey, I just realised. d3x unvoted Beefster, so if I vote him, he'll be at L-2, not L-1.
Vote: BeefsterTHE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Eh, you probably, you big meanie.
No, it's not you. I'm torn whether I think Xite or XScorpion are scum. I think Xite's play is far too dangerous for scum, but it is anti-town, and like I said before, he could just be kamikaze...whereas I'm even less sure about XScorpion. He struck me as pro-town when he was arguing about what was good for town. But apart from that I don't find him particularly townie. So for now I'd say it's a tied place for #2 \o/THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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I might be able to get on a little tonight after all.
^thisd3x wrote:I'm happy with a Beefy Lynch or with an XS Lynch from this point forward. They're interchangably on top of my ScumList.
XScorpion's most recent post was...well, let's just say, when he said "why should I bother caring about whether Beefster lives or dies", my scum sense was tingling. Town aligned players should care about other town aligned players dying.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Beefster is one of the operational wagons at the moment. You said to save us from a mislynch, vote Xite. Therefore you imply that the Beefster vote is a mislynch. Therefore I am not under the impression that you believe him to be a townie, since a mislynch is the lynching of a townie. Therefore when you say "I don't care if he lives or dies" it suggests that you don't care if a townie lives or dies. Therefore you are scum.XScorpion wrote:
I think AdrienC is getting other people to scumhunt for him.xscorpion, what do you think of what i just quoted?
I'm sorry to inform you that I haven't got a chance to investigate Beefster so I don't know if he's scum or not, because you seem to be under the impression that I'm a cop who got to investigate beefster before the day began.XScorpion's most recent post was...well, let's just say, when he said "why should I bother caring about whether Beefster lives or dies", my scum sense was tingling. Town aligned players should care about other town aligned players dying.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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EBWOP: should have read; "Therefore I am under the impression that you believe him to be a townie, since a mislynch is the lynching of a townie."
The "not" was left in there from when I was going to say that I was not under the impression that you were a cop who got to investigate beefster before the day began.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All Trades
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You went on to say that I hadn't offered a reason for thinking that I thought you thought that Beefster was town. There is my reason. Do you not think it's a strong one? Do you really have absolutely no read on him? Or is he your scumbuddy and you're just trying to derail his lynching?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Well since my vote is on Beefster, I'd like to see him lynched. But I'm not going to enter an agreement about who to vote for tomorrow, before I've seen what the rest of the day, flip, night, and next day hold. Did you expect me to agree to that?
Regarding beefster, why haven't you paid attention to him? And I think it's suspect that you'd willingly vote for him if you have no read on him.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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I would vote for Xite if I thought he was scum. Why else would I vote for him?
I don't expect you to do all the scumhunting, but you should pay attention to every player. Right?
Suspect as in, why would you vote for someone, if you didn't think that they were scum? (neutral = not thinking they're scum, because you don't think they're anything at the moment)
You seem obsessed with getting Xite lynched. Would you sacrifice yourself to achieve this?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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AurorusVox He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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If you're town, that's stupid. You didn't mind getting rid of beefster to get Xite killed because he "has the same probability as everyone else of being scum." But if you're town, then getting rid of you doesn't have that equal chance. It has zero chance. You'd happily deplete the town's numbers by one.XScorpion wrote:Yes.
On the other hand, if you're scum, you're peacocking and showing how noble you are for the town's cause. You're hoping we wouldn't take you up on your "brave offer". And if you're so certain that Xite is scum, perhaps you're hoping such a display of confidence will sway us into voting for him instead of you.
Vote: XScorpionTHE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Fuck it. I'll post my read and ask one of the questions anyway. The replacement can always answer it...
---
To me, this read;Adrien C wrote:My vote on Budja isn't looking so hot anymore, though there's no real content to clear him yet.
UNVOTE: Buja
I'm looking towards XScorpion and Beefster, but not sure which yet.
"No one else seems to want to vote Budja anymore, though I can't be bothered to build a case for or against him.
[Unjustified unvote]
I'm looking towards the popular scumreads, but want to see which one I can blend into easier."
@Adrien; / replacement
Have you come any closer to making your mind up?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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I've been wavering between XS and Beefeater for the last few pages. But I think his last post was okay. Though I'm still wondering if there's a Beefeater/XS team and that's why he voted for you (to allow him to simply FoS XS rather than place a vote down on him)nocase wrote:also, i can't decide whether that last post by beef was scummy or not. i'm really torn.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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ConfidAnon wrote:The exchange between AV and Xite about votes without reasons bores me to tears.
Based on what? I think I could do with hearing some "XS is town" reasoning to balance out my brainload of "XS is scum" reads.ConfidAnon wrote:Also, I think XScorpion is Town.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Lololol, another thing about this post that strikes me as funny;
Adrien C has never actually voted for Budja.Adrien C wrote:My vote on Budja isn't looking so hot anymore, though there's no real content to clear him yet.
UNVOTE: Buja
He earlier said that Budja's actions were the scummiest thing he had seen, but never voted for him. Has he posted this unvote of Budja by mistake, just because he was playing too many games? Or was he trying to blend with the town, by misrepresenting his vote?
Vote: Adrien CTHE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Are you suggesting there are actually four scum in this setup? (of course you aren't, I jest) How many scum do you think are in that list of four that you've identified?ConfidAnon wrote:Also, not liking howfourpeople converged on Adrien (XScorpion, nocase, Budja, AV) within the same time frame. Smells a little fishy.
But seriously, I don't think it's odd that we've all started picking up on AC. After all, due to his somewhat-lurky behaviour, I had been getting a neutral vibe from him because he hadn't really been posting much, in the way of townie or scummy posts. But his recent post with the unvoting was a tad suspect, and that caused me to pay more attention to him. I understand that you think my vote might be harsh based on his unvoting of Budja, but as I said to XS, it was that combined with an uneasy feeling from the rest of his post (especially his desire to vote for one of Beefster or XScorpion, without actually making an effort to get any reads on them)
Also, yes, I acknowledge that it can just be a mistake on his part, in which he thought that he had already voted, but even given this, why did he feel the need to clarify who he was unvoting? It seemed like he wanted to point out who he was allegedly voting, as though, perhaps, he had realised that he hadn't voted Budja and wanted to pull the wool over our eyes. I know that I didn't realise his vote was elsewhere until I ISO'd him recently.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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-What has made it less likely that there are scum in that group than before?ConfidAnon wrote:
Given the individuals in it, yes, although not as likely as before.XScorpion, 283 wrote:Still think there is at least one scum amongst that group of THREE?
-You said that you thought there was probably only one, even when the group consisted of four players. This would assume that three players are town who have been convinced to vote for another town aligned player. Isn't it more likely that just two town players would be convinced to mislynch, as opposed to three making this mistake?
-Do you think that the votes on Adrien are because of a particular player's arguments, or because of Adrien's actions themselves?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Heh, if it was aimed at a replacement, the question was meant to be more about "have you made your mind up who you think is the scummiest player" ^^"Rhinox wrote:
Lol how the hell is a replacement even supposed to attempt to answer this?AV wrote:@Adrien; / replacement
Have you come any closer to making your mind up?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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XS gaining townie points for his last post imo...
My reasons for thinking he was scum was because he voted Budja for going from "anti-town" to "scummy" and then defended someone by saying that there wasn't much of a difference between anti-town and scum. I value consistency and so such a post set off scumbells in my head.ConfidAnon wrote:Where exactly is the Beefster case?
Oh, Rhinox, fancy giving your reasons why you agree with a Beefster lynch, seeing as you've put him at L-1?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Also, I notice that everybody except ConfidAnon and XScorpion have voted for Beefster at some point (as well as Beefster himself of course). So I reckon there ought to be plenty of answers to ConfidAnon's "Where exactly is the Beefster case?" question - if anyone else cares to share their reasons by this point in the game? :\THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Oh, I thought scum might prefer a game where not much is going on and things stagnate because players who are less interested might be less committed to scumhunting and reading posts as carefully. So by venting his frustration that people are allowing the discussion to slow down, I took that as a townie frustration.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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XScorpion wrote:
You were closer to jesters than mafia, given that you had no nightkill and your goal was to purposely get lynched.Oh haha... yeah forgot about that. But we weren't really jesters, we were still an informed minority scum team.
I'm all up for simply killing everyone who doesn't explain their votes. If scum wins this way then I will blame town for sucking.Shouldn't this tell you that "not explaining votes" is not a reliable scum tell in this game? maybe you should try scumhunting a different way.
unvote
Vote: Nocase
Post or die.
Why not d3x post or die?
I wouldn't mind hammering on Beefster but I want to hear his claim first.THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Beefster wrote:XScorp: I understand what you tried to mean by Xite being scum- where PR in its context meant town-aligned power role. It's simply a miscommunication. Your play IS kinda wonky- not that it means anything because I've seen a lot of wonky VTs.
d3x: geez, attacking XS on miscommunication? The line between scummy and anti-town is sketchy at best and the fact that you're attacking him over such a small semantic bothers me.
FoS: d3xBeefster wrote:XScorpion openly admits that he's tunnelling... I'm not liking this. He's actually starting to bother me. I thought his play was just plain wonky, before, but now he's looking scummy.
FoS: XScorpion
I think there's an XS/Beefster team;Beefster wrote:Aside from that, I see his point on XS.
1) In the first post I quoted, he defends XS by saying he could just be wonky town, then defends him from d3x's anti-town/scummy comment.
2) In the second, he says he thinks he looks scummy, but doesn't vote for him - and this is at the point at which XS is under suspicion from the rest of the town anyway - possibly trying to blend in but not wanting to put his buddy at L-1.
3) In the third, he again agrees that XS is scummy, which a) distances XS from him and b) helps him in the event that XS gets lynched instead of him.
4) XS is also the only player, other than Beefster himself, to have never voted for Beefster.
Vote: XScorpionTHE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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I sided with Beefster because he actually had a case, whereas Budja just voted without reasons.Rhinox wrote:AV: Early on, sided with beefster over budja when they had cases on each other. (iso 9, 14).
I was saying thatRhinox wrote:Iso 21: wishy-washy about beefy - "I didn't get why people found beefy scummy, I had a neutral vibe" followed by "then I found this, Major FOS".up until that pointI hadn't thought him to be that scummy. My opinion changed; so I don't think you can say it's wishy-washy, because I was expressing that change, not trying to say both at once.
I didn't want to put him at L-1 because I was going to be V/LA. Would you prefer I had put him at hammer distance and then disappeared for a few days?Rhinox wrote:Didn't vote beefy b/c he didn't want to put him at L-1. Iso 24: top suspect is now beefy, voted beefy to put him at L-2 after d3x unvoted.
I questioned your L-1 because you hadn't supplied any reasons. L-1 votes should have at least some evidence to them.Rhinox wrote:Iso: 33 switched vote to Xscorp. Iso 37: more wishywashy-ness on beefster - "I think his last post was ok/I'm still wondering if there's a XS/Beefy scum team". Questioned me about putting beefy at L-1 (iso46).
In my experience, it's best to let the L-1 claim. And in my experience it's best to at least give the person in question a chance to back their claim up - i.e., point to breadcrumbing and so on. I am still glad that I didn't hammer him straight away, becauseRhinox wrote:Iso 49: ok with hammering, wanted to hear claim first. Iso 50: Doesn't believe claim. Glad he waited to hammer. Wonder's if he's scum looking for a CC.
Potential scum for being wishy-washy towards beefy on more than 1 occasion. Comments before lynch lead me to believe he could be the scum encouraging a CC: OK with hammering but wanted to hear claim, didn't believe claim but didn't hammer or threaten to hammer or didn't reaffirm whether he would still be willing to hammer. Instead, fencesitting: might be the real cop/might be scum fishing for a CC.ifhe had been cop, that would have been a stupid move to make. I would have hammered, and would have had the chance to prove that, but after Beefster had had a chance to defend himself.
Do you disagree that waiting for a claim, or letting the claim share his reasons, is what should have happened?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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I will scumhunt elsewhere, but I wanted to make sure to get my initial suspicions aired at the start of the day. I'm planning on doing a re-read later today or tomorrow when I get some free time.XScorpion wrote:Now let's suppose that today ends, I get lynched, and I flip town. Who else do the three of you think could be scum? Rhinox at least gave his top 3 suspects, can you as well, with reasoning (I know the latter might be hard to do, but bear with me)?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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Re-reading d3x, he did a fair share of scumhunting yesterday, but like Rhinox says, he did keep saying he'd be happy to vote for Beefster without actually doing it. But I'm also interested in something he brought up against XS;
XS had said this - "Beefster got lynched on day 1 in an ongoing game as town for the same reasons you guys are attacking him now."
@XSXS, you used meta to call him town, and you said you believed his claim. Why do you think he was able to fool you?THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd-
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