Mini 1035 - Devil's Town - GAME OVER

[LimMePls]

Vote: podium123456

We could get confused between him and podium123455. Plus he's an ass.

(His avatar is a donkey... get it?)

[LimMePls]

EBWOP: Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qsWFFuYZYI

tl;dw

[LimMePls]

Did this game stall 14 posts in?

Lets try stirring some debate. I'd like everyone to answer this please:

Lynch all Lurkers. Agree or disagree. Why?

I'll go first. I disagree with lynch all lurkers. I think it attempts to punish players for bad play, but doesn't succeed (they just join another game to lurk in), while actively harming the town by distracting them from pursuing scum.

[LimMePls]

I'm not sure what you mean by "how do you lynch scum day 1", but it seems to me that you force lots of interactions and look for scummy motivations/interactions from players.

@Dr. Pepper: Does that mean your vote is no longer an RVS vote?

[LimMePls]

LynchMePls wrote:
@Dr. Pepper: Does that mean your vote is no longer an RVS vote?

Yes.

ow, my brain

What is hard to understand about this? He voted Blaze for his first post, presumably it was an RVS vote. Then he decided he "liked his vote", so I just wanted to clarify that he meant his vote was now not-RVS, and he replied that his vote is indeed no longer RVS.

[LimMePls]

Things Zordiak is Wrong about

• Blaze's vote is textbook OMGUS regardless of supposed randomness
  
• edmund's plan is NOT valid, it sets up an excuse for lazy scum hunting
  
• LynchMe's question is not generating relevant discussion

I voted for you because you pretty much voted for me...in your first post. I should have said why but I thought it was obvious. My bad to everyone else.

Ok, I'm on board.

Vote: Blaze

[LimMePls]

Also, I don't like how Lynchmepls and nexus piled on the Blaze wagon solely off of that RVS vote.

Am I misunderstanding something? Is Blaze trying to say he just RandOMGUS'ed? I thought he was being serious.

[LimMePls]

I have to agree with Dr. Pepper here, Blaze's post looked like he was saying his vote was not random.

[LimMePls]

I say again, according to Blaze's post, it sounded like he was saying it wasn't random. When exactly did he make it clear it was RVS? If he intended it to be an RVS OMGUS vote, then why not say something to that effect?

[LimMePls]

Welcome ABR.

Thoughts that might shake up this pretty slow game?

[LimMePls]

unvote

[LimMePls]

about Zodiark13's scumbuddy speculation (Blaze,Dr. Pepper): I find scumbuddy speculation pretty useless, it is difficult enough to find one scum at a time, creating complicated theories about connections will only distract us.

Do you mean D1, or ever? Cause I've caught scum by finding connections between them and I think it's a very useful tool.

As for my "suspicions" I don't have much new to add. I was suspicious of Blaze because I thought he was admitting to OMGUS, but then he came back and explained that he was randoming. The interaction between Dr. P and podium is interesting, I'm still watching it to see how it shakes out. Right now I'm leaning town on Zodiark.

Dr. Pepper's bullet lists are starting to annoy me.

I'm not going to make judgement on either podium or dr p's alignment, although I agree with what people have said in that we will probably find scum on the blaze wagon.

Are you gonna make a judgment about something else then perhaps? This post was incredibly wishy-washy. You wanna take a stand on anything? Post 60 was a big ball of saying nothing in as many words as possible.

Vote: untrod tripod

[LimMePls]

bloodthirsty much? I realize that voting and stuff has to take place at the beginning of the game, but I really don't think you can make hard and fast calls on someone's alignment with this little information given. I'm getting scummy vibes from Dr P's posts like this [/quote[

What exactly is bloodthirsty about my voting you? My vote wasn't on anyone, and you said something I didn't like, so I voted you. Calling it bloodthirsty is really interesting.

A question to Nexus and LMP: why did you vote on the Blaze bandwagon?

I've already explained this. He made a statement that read to me like he was making a deliberate OMGUS vote, and not a random vote. He has since come back and explained that it was RVS and he sounded believable, so I unvoted. Now some return questions: What was wrong with my vote? Exactly what about the vote was bad?

[LimMePls]

bloodthirsty much? I realize that voting and stuff has to take place at the beginning of the game, but I really don't think you can make hard and fast calls on someone's alignment with this little information given. I'm getting scummy vibes from Dr P's posts like this [/quote[

What exactly is bloodthirsty about my voting you? My vote wasn't on anyone, and you said something I didn't like, so I voted you. Calling it bloodthirsty is really interesting.

A question to Nexus and LMP: why did you vote on the Blaze bandwagon?

I've already explained this. He made a statement that read to me like he was making a deliberate OMGUS vote, and not a random vote. He has since come back and explained that it was RVS and he sounded believable, so I unvoted. Now some return questions: What was wrong with my vote? Exactly what about the vote was bad?

Asked and never answered. Please answer this UT.

Still love my vote. I'm sympathetic to an ABR wagon though, for the "hammer".

[LimMePls]

My original point wasn't that you weren't posting, its that you were saying a lot of words without actually taking a stance on anything. Interesting to note that you thought my vote on you was because you weren't posting and that you have since changed that though.

[LimMePls]

@Mod:

Can we get a vote count please?

[LimMePls]

Still waiting for an answer to my question from UT.

ABR is at L-1 now, correct? I'm willing to hammer after the claim.

[LimMePls]

Still waiting for an answer to my question from UT.

ABR is at L-1 now, correct? I'm willing to hammer after the claim.

You haven't mentioned ABR once all game

This is a lie.

Still love my vote. I'm sympathetic to an ABR wagon though, for the "hammer".

I know you saw this, because you even took the opportunity to explain to us that TDC had already claimed so we should lynch him instead, here:

TDC has already claimed vanilla. If you guys put albert at L-1, we risk exposing a PR and/or narrowing mafia's choices for PR hits. Keep that in mind.

Well I don't think TDC is scum, so I'm not going to lynch him. I think Untrod Tripod is scum, but apparently no one else agrees or even feels the need to comment, and he seems reluctant to answer my questions, so I'm announcing my willingness to hammer ABR. You honestly think I should hammer someone I don't think is scum just because of the VT claim? I'm not doing that.

[LimMePls]

2 claims on D1 is very bad for town, imo.

if you assume 2 mafia (but there could be 3 which would be worse), they have a 1/5 (or 1/4 with 3 maf) chance of killing a PR... on N1. you guys need to keep that in mind.

i would rather lynch a VT than risk exposing/killing a PR, when we have a mislynch (or mislynches) to spare.

@LMP. This is your judgment call. Do you want to hammer or do you want to take Podium's advice that I quoted?

Ok, I think I understand what Podium is trying to say. We've already forced a claim out of the VT, so if he is lying, then good, but if he is telling the truth and we don't lynch him, we've just made it easier for the scum to hit a PR.

@Podium: Are you saying that I should hammer him even if I think he is town, just to keep us from having another claim? I've played a half dozen games or so on this site so far, and I've never been in a situation where someone hammered a claimed VT they thought was town.

[LimMePls]

All I see is you going on and on about how I totally should be lynched because I claimed Vanilla and because that's "rule two of lynching"

I said this once, not "going on and on about" as you are attempting to suggest.

and when the wind turns and ABR is the choice of the moment you suddenly decide I'm oh so town and have made up for Dr P and hammer ABR.

Albert was acting more scummy than you, 'nuff said.

What's gonna be our subject of discourse now it's daytime?

In the event this is a serious question, I think we should try to identify the killer based on ed's NK. Obviously either he was suspicious of someone who is scum or created watcher tells/breadcrumbs. There is also the possibility that scum just got lucky, but I personally consider this unlikely.

I agree with TDC about your hammer of ABR after pushing Dr.P/TDC lynch so hard. Also, given a quick ISO of edmund, I'd like to

Vote: Zodiark13

[LimMePls]

It's really rough when you have a decent player replace into a slot that was acting like total scum.

On the one hand

, I want to give TDC a chance, because he's not acting anything like Dr Pepper,

but on the other hand

Dr Pepper was acting like scum and I know I should care about the slot more than the player. The best thing to do imo is analyze the surroundings of the Dr Pepper wagon and the ABR lynch.

The bolding is mine. UT is whishy-washy fence sitting again. What a shock.

[LimMePls]

24+ hours and only 3 posts. I'm guessing this game is due for some prods. I have nothing new to add. I'm happy with the wagon and eagerly awaiting ConfidAnon's catch up post.

[LimMePls]

Mafia game needs participation badly!

[LimMePls]

I didn't know about this rule... so that means we have a maximum of 2 mafia, which is good to know.

Oh goodie, now I'm glad to know there aren't 3 mafia in this mini game...

That was completely pointless. Why did you even bring that up podium?

[LimMePls]

Oh wait, Podium, you do realize that they mean a maximum of 2 mafia GROUPS, right? Not 2 mafia members.

[LimMePls]

The activity in this game makes it unplayable.

[LimMePls]

Wow, I'm just going to have to get used to hating your posting style I guess. More wishy-washy words like "I

think

Taz jumps to the top of my scumlist" and "Taz is twitching my scumdar and I'm still iffy on TDC...". Do you ever commit to anything? And do you have a link to a recent scum game for me?

[LimMePls]

Oh, and what does it mean when someone "twitches" your scumdar. Is that more than a ping? Lower than a tap? Inbetween a flip and pull?

[LimMePls]

I find it interesting that Taz was willing to unvote before asking Incognito why he wanted the unvote. Looks like buddying up to the new player.

You think things are going to happen to make us ready?

@Taz: If you are questioning his motives, why not ask this and get an answer first?

[LimMePls]

I knew I was forgetting something.

vote: Untrod Tripod

Thank god, sanity has been brought to this game. I've been barking up this tree for awhile with absolutely 0 help.

Unvote
Vote: Untrod Tripod

[LimMePls]

LMP's tunneling Untrod Tripod, but I don't agree with that tunneling; it's to easy to tunnel.

Please explain my "tunneling". I saw behavior I thought was suspcious, I made a case about it and voted along with my case. I got 0 sympathy for my case, and have sense moved on, even voting others (ZodiarK) because I realized that my UT opinion wasn't very popular. Then someone with common sense joins the game, sees what I see, and votes UT. So I go back to him.

At what part was this "tunneling"?

[LimMePls]

@Taz: So if I criticize one players posts, but don't criticize others, I'm tunneling? If that is the case, then why is tunneling scummy? Your defeinition of tunneling matches my definition of "making a case". The "inordinate-ness"? WTF does that even mean? So let me get this straight, I see scum behavior from UT, I point it out, no one agrees, so I drop it. Then we get a replacement, that replacement sees what I mean, and agrees with me and places a vote on UT. So if I go back to UT it's scummy? How does that make any sense? Wouldn't it be scummy if I hadn't gone back to UT?

@Zodiark: That is lols. So "If you seriously felt that he was scum, you shouldn't have given up the case", yet I'm being called a tunneler for what I did do. Talk about a catch-22. If I keep voting him, I'm tunneling. If I stop voting him, I'm tunneling.

I feel like I've taken crazy pills.

[LimMePls]

This is absurd. Apparently I made "1 post about it", but I'm also tunneling. Both of these ideas are factually incorrect.

I'm not going to make judgement on either podium or dr p's alignment, although I agree with what people have said in that we will probably find scum on the blaze wagon.

Are you gonna make a judgment about something else then perhaps? This post was incredibly wishy-washy. You wanna take a stand on anything? Post 60 was a big ball of saying nothing in as many words as possible.

Vote: untrod tripod

bloodthirsty much? I realize that voting and stuff has to take place at the beginning of the game, but I really don't think you can make hard and fast calls on someone's alignment with this little information given. I'm getting scummy vibes from Dr P's posts like this [/quote[

What exactly is bloodthirsty about my voting you? My vote wasn't on anyone, and you said something I didn't like, so I voted you. Calling it bloodthirsty is really interesting.

A question to Nexus and LMP: why did you vote on the Blaze bandwagon?

I've already explained this. He made a statement that read to me like he was making a deliberate OMGUS vote, and not a random vote. He has since come back and explained that it was RVS and he sounded believable, so I unvoted. Now some return questions: What was wrong with my vote? Exactly what about the vote was bad?

My original point wasn't that you weren't posting, its that you were saying a lot of words without actually taking a stance on anything. Interesting to note that you thought my vote on you was because you weren't posting and that you have since changed that though.

Wow, I'm just going to have to get used to hating your posting style I guess. More wishy-washy words like "I

think

Taz jumps to the top of my scumlist" and "Taz is twitching my scumdar and I'm still iffy on TDC...". Do you ever commit to anything? And do you have a link to a recent scum game for me?

That demonstrates that I didn't make "1 post about it". As for the "tunneling", I pushed the case as far as it would go, the day ended in a lynch, and then the next day I followed a different line of inquiry (Zodiark). I've only come back to UT now that someone has finally agreed with my position on him. I don't know how that can possibly be seen as "tunneling". I seriously feel like I'm in bizzaro world.

At this point I think that either of Zodiark/UT are great lynches for today. Pretty sure we'll hit scum either way.

[LimMePls]

Personally i still find Dr. P's rage quit scummy, and that's probably always going to be associated with that slot for the rest of the game.

Still think zordiak's behavior was scummy, and lynch worthy, at the moment.

LMP... been getting a slightly scummy scum vibe here... mostly gut. dont like how he says he thought UT was scum, but didn't pursue/vote him today until incognito started making a case.

Haven't been a fan of Taz's input so far.

That's about all i got... can't really get into this game, and haven't seen much that has jumped out and grabbed me.

I really don't get this. It is mind-bogglingly frustrating. I pursued the case yesterday over multiple posts and was COMPLETELY IGNORED by the rest of the town. Then today I even made a post pointing out that he was continuing his wishy-washy play style and WAS COMPLETELY IGNORED AGAIN. Then Incognito shows up, actually reads UT and my posts and agrees with me and votes UT. Then I vote UT, and somehow this makes me scummy. Simply astonishing. I seriously do not understand the logic here.

[LimMePls]

But wouldn't that be tunneling, the very thing people are accusing me of and claim is scummy? That's why I called it a catch-22 earlier. If I sit my vote on him and keep pushing it, I'm tunneling and thus scummy. If I move my vote to other avenues of inquiry and then come back when more evidence appears and others are more receptive, I'm scummy. I mean what the hell!

The logic is that if UT was such a hot target in your mind, you would pursue him regardless of whether or not anyone else was with you.

Lets be clear, I didn't completely stop pursuing the case, I even pointed out when he continued doing his scummy behavior, I simply moved my vote to another scummy player.

[LimMePls]

WTF is going on with Taz?

[LimMePls]

I just realized that Taz was a slot I replaced in a game, and his behavior was really crazy in that game too. It's the ghostbusters game in my wiki in case anyone wants to look at it. His play here looks no different to me than his play there.

[LimMePls]

^^The fact that you are aware of this makes any discussion of the topic WIFOM. It does nothing to prove your alignment either way.

[LimMePls]

Why should we massclaim, we know who we're lynching today.

[LimMePls]

I'm VT.

because he's lying scum. He claimed an information role and provided us with no information. How likely is a tracker and a watcher in the same game? Isn't 9-player setup either just a cop or a doc+cop as PRs on the town side?

That's standard 9-man for newbie games, but this isn't a newbie game. I see no reason why town couldn't have tracker + watcher. Tracker is like a weaker cop and watcher is like a reverse bodyguard (you don't save the target, but you get to catch the killer scum).

[LimMePls]

There is no need to rush this lynch. ISOs are under way. Today isn't just for lynching obv-scum UT, but for finding his partner too.

Taz's vote looks like he is eager to be on the bus.

[LimMePls]

Pretty sure we should lynch UT.

Any doubt holding you back?

LOL! Especially with this!

[LimMePls]

Either (1) UT is scum; or (2) he would have been hammered by now.

or you're scum and your pard'ner (if this game has a two person mafia team) is waiting for someone else to vote for me

Or you're both scum distancing from each other.

[LimMePls]

Alright, I'm going to ISO everyone left in the game. I'm going to start with UT, since he is almost certainly scum, and I'm going to look for connections. Then I'll ISO the others in order of my read from scum to town.

I just want to point something out. Dr P and podium are having an argument that, essentially, boils down to how they interpret this:

VOTE:Dr Pepper

which, I'd like to remind you guys was
- the 3rd post in the game
- in response to a random vote.

so, I guess what I'm trying to say is
- chill
- out
- dude

I'm not going to make judgement on either podium or dr p's alignment, although I agree with what people have said in that we will probably find scum on the blaze wagon.

The problem with this post is that at the time the only discussion the town was having (useful or not) was about this event. Trying to stifle the activity is scummy. The town needs to exit RVS, and attempts to stop the progression of the game are bad bad bad. It also fence-sits and is completely unwilling to make a statement about the event. Was it scummy? Was it not? No opinion just "chill out dude".

Also, @everyone, care to share your opininons on this post I made? It seemed to have gotten lost under the creation of a new thread page.

I'm suddenly finding it very suspicous that Dr P. was the only one that considered Blaze's vote to be OMGUS, and for him to attempt to pursuade everyone it was, only for Blaze to come out and say it was.

tl;dr, Dr P. and Blaze are scumbiddies, and I found possible evidence.

I don't follow. What's your evidence?

This is interesting, as it could be seen as a defense of Blaze(Taz). Someone says they found possible evidence of Dr. P/Blaze scum team and UT starts to question it.

Vote Untrod Tripod

I will go ahead and join the bandwagon. I'm keeping an eye on Dr.Pepper.

well technically your second vote makes it a bandwagon, especially the part where there's no reason given for it.

Are you gonna make a judgment about something else then perhaps? This post was incredibly wishy-washy. You wanna take a stand on anything? Post 60 was a big ball of saying nothing in as many words as possible.
Vote: untrod tripod

bloodthirsty much? I realize that voting and stuff has to take place at the beginning of the game, but I really don't think you can make hard and fast calls on someone's alignment with this little information given. I'm getting scummy vibes from Dr P's posts like this

Things podium has lied about
Blaze's vote being random and light-hearted
giving Blaze the benefit of the doubt
while condemning me with assumptions
My reasons for voting Blaze
His OMGUS vote
and for pressure to contribute
hard since he's being defended for no reason
Me calling any player scummy
The severity of his slips

I'm a cautious players, so I tend to avoid saying "he's scum, he's scum, he's scum" early. That's just how I roll.

A question to Nexus and LMP: why did you vote on the Blaze bandwagon?

Questions the Blaze(Taz) bandwagon. Says he thinks Dr. P is scummy (who was pushing the Blaze wagon). This could be distancing from Dr. P(TDC) or protecting Blaze(Taz)

Zodiark, trying our hands at identifying, on day two, the killer based on edmund's death is basically a Wifom dead end.

QFT

It's really rough when you have a decent player replace into a slot that was acting like total scum. On the one hand, I want to give TDC a chance, because he's not acting anything like Dr Pepper, but on the other hand Dr Pepper was acting like scum and I know I should care about the slot more than the player. The best thing to do imo is analyze the surroundings of the Dr Pepper wagon and the ABR lynch. But still,

IGMEOY TDC

I'm not so much thinking that Zodiark hammering before the claim was such a scummy thing. What would you guys have said if he'd said "oh, uh, I claim cop"? I think revealing ABR's role would have either required a PR to counterclaim (since there seems to be no vig we couldn't have found him dead last night if he'd claimed a killing PR that someone else had and we kept him alive, or the cop/doc would have had to come out which would have been a bad plan on day 1). We had some discussion before the hammer about the relative intelligence of requiring a claim and I kind of fall on the side of not wanting a second claim on day 1.

I'll have to think/observe/reread more to decide where my vote needs to go.

This is another post where he could be distancing from TDC. He said that D1 his biggest suspicion was of Dr.P(TDC), but he wants to give the replacement a "chance". Why do replacements have to be given a "chance"? If the slot was scummy before, why does it getting a replacement nullify that scumminess?

And I don't really remember you being particularly suspicious of Dr. P at the time, could you elaborate what exactly it is that bothers you so much about him?

I thought he was being especially stubborn and confrontational. Also him replacing out did nothing to help how his alignment looked. I don't think he looks like obviscum, but thought he was playing somewhat anti-town.

UT is whishy-washy fence sitting again. What a shock.

cry moar. I'm not going to be less cautious because you're baiting me. that's just how I roll, dawg

This post actually read kind of townie to me. It's interesting compared with how he reacted to my poking on D1. On D1 I pushed him for being wishy-washy and his response was to start making some stances (appease me). However, on D2 when I push him for that behavior he basically tells me to get bent. Seems like scum would actually try to appease again. This post actually felt genuine to me.

Yah, there's a certain timing element to Zodiak's vote, and from this I see Zodiark's game play as suspect.

Vote: Zodiark

I really don't get what's so scummy about Zodiark. I didn't find his vote all that suspect and I don't think he's scum.

I would, however, say that there's "a certain timing element" to Taz's vote on ABR. He jumps in and puts a quick vote on ABR and now is calling Zodiark obviscum. If Zodiark gets lynched and flips town, I think Taz jumps to the top of my scumlist.

Insofar as there really hasn't been all that much said, I don't really have much else to say. Taz is twitching my scumdar and I'm still iffy on TDC because of his slot.

And then he is back to the wishy-washy again. Of particular note is his statement here that he "really don't get what's so scummy about Zodiark". But he quick hammers him without a claim anyways later. Thanks scum.

I'm not going to quote this whole post, as it is rather large. The point here is that I think this post is why Incognito died last night. At the end he does another subtle defense of Taz ("I'm not saying Zodiark and Taz are scum together"). That's pretty fascinating, given that earlier you were saying you didn't think Zodiark was scum at all.

Other thoughts:
Incognito, I find it kind of suspicious that you came in and buddied up with LMP. As you could read in the game I posted for LMP to read, I used this as a scum tactic in my last completed game to get on the town's good side. You buddy up with a fairly pro-town player (I'd say LMP is fairly pro-town) and ride the goodwill out for as long as possible. Your predecessor(s) hardly confirm you as town, so I feel like this would actually be a good tactic if you're scum to get us to forget ConfidAnon's lurking and replacement.

Hints at a LMP/Incognito scum team. What did we have in common? Oh, we thought UT was scum, right.

sorry for triple post, but I would like to say that I agree that it's interesting that Incognito came in, called a guy with a wagon on him scummy and then promptly tried his darndest to derail the wagon. goodposting, Taz.

UT likes Taz's "goodposting". Fails to point out that what Taz did was unvote Zodiark at Incog's command, then question Incog's motives. How does that make any sense? How does this make sense if you believe in an Incog/LMP scum team? Wouldn't we have wanted the Zodiark mislynch to stay alive? Cognative Dissonance.

Another post to long to quote. Just read it. Trust me, if you didn't think UT was scum before, you should after reading this post. It's just plain awful.

@Taz, what are you trying to do with your votes, exactly?

@TDC
sorry, somehow I missed that being a question. Anyway, I don't think my original defense was that Zodiark was town, I was saying before Incognito replaced in that I thought that Zodiark hammering ABR was not a scumtell. My initial defense for Incognito's case wasn't really a defense of Zodiark, imo, it was more saying that I thought his idea that Zodiark and I were obviously scumbuddies was really faulty. I defended myself more than Zodiark in that post, so I'm not really sure why you're saying my initial reaction was to defend Zodiark. It seemed (as I've said) that one of his scumtells for both of us was that we hadn't said much too/about each other, so I refuted that.

This is another post that makes a case for UT/Taz. That comment to Taz looks like "hey buddy, knock it off, you're looking scummy".

what a representation of the whole game in these first couple posts. LMP pretends I'm confirmed scum and no one disputes him, Taz says something idiotic and TDC gets annoyed.

I'm VT.

let's hear podium's claim

WOW. Interesting that he wants Podium's claim, when he pretty much hasn't said anything about podium since early D1.

I seriously don't know how anyone could read his ISO and conclude he isn't scum. Based on my read, the two most likely buddies are Taz and TDC. Taz will be getting my next ISO.

[LimMePls]

[quote="Tazaro]Yah, Zodiark's hammer after saying Doc Pepper was obvscum is sheer opportunism. IGMEOU, Zodiark.[/quote]

Lining up his lynches. Given the results of the two lynches I think this is telling.

Actually, can someone just unvote Zodiark please? He's at L-1 right now, and I don't think we're ready for that yet.

Unvote

You think things are going to happen to make us ready?

I called attention to this when it happened, but it deserves to be remembered. Taz urges everyone to vote Zodiark, and then Incognito shows up, makes a bunch of sense and looks pro-town, and then Taz unvotes like Incognito asks, but asks this strange question. This reads to me like Taz was trying to appear pro-town to Incognito.

I put cart before the horse at times. I'm not sure I like Incognito's vote for Untrod Tripod.

So he doesn't like Incognito's UT vote, but unvotes Zodiark when Incognito asks for an unvote. The defense of UT is telling here.

...because he's starting a new wagon after the Zodiark one.

Vote: Zodiark

And then gets back on the Zodiark wagon. This whole interaction is crazy scummy.

LMP's tunneling Untrod Tripod, but I don't agree with that tunneling; it's to easy to tunnel.

Taz's attempt to call my UT stance/case tunneling.

Untrod Tripod ain't giving me any scum tells.

More UT defense, although granted not as subtle.

I'm sorry about this, but I have played in this forum only since July, and Untrod Tripod was scum in a game that's now over, so I'm inclined to believe he's town now .

Absolutely awful use of the gambler's fallacy.

Le sigh. Okay, let's use the power of L-1:

Unvote: Zodiark
Vote: Untrod Tripod

That was a rather sudden change of heart. This post screams bus.

That's good that there was a spurt of activity after my vote,

UNVOTE

And then the unvote as fast as possible. This is laughable.

Sorry. Having a mind drunk with whatever makes me do weird things.

Vote: Zodiark

And then the vote right back to Zodiark. Just so I'm making my point clear, the sequence of events are:

Taz votes Zodiark
Taz implores others to vote Zodiark
Taz unvotes Zodiark at Incognito's request
Taz votes Zodiark again
Taz unvotes Zodiark again
Taz votes UT to force a claim using "the power of L-1".
Taz unvotes because "there was a spurt of activity".
Taz votes Zodiark again... again, AtE's about "having a mind drunk with whatever".

So he goes full circle, using the opportunity to suck up to a pro-town looking player (Incog), pushes UT to L-1 to force a claim, then gets his vote right back where he wanted it, the mislynch-of-the-day(TM).

I'm a tracker.
Now for a LMP claim?

After day one was over, Zodiark was a suspicious person in my eyes, so I tracked Zodiark and result: he did not leave his house. After day two was over, I was worried about Incognito, so I tracked Incognito and result: he did not leave his house.

BINGO! We've got a winner here. So, after tracking Zodiark N1 to no one, he pushes Zodiark all day the next day, voting him 3 separate times. Look above at those awful series of events I point out above. How does any of that make sense after you've tracked him to no one? At the very least, wouldn't you hesitate and figure that he is less likely to be scum? This claim makes no sense.

This ISO is almost scummier than UT's. If not for that hammer yesterday after UT's multiple "I don't think Zodiark is scum" posts, I'd think Taz is a better lynch.

I'll have to get to TDC and podium tomorrow, but I think I've seen enough.

[LimMePls]

^^ if mafia was going to fake tracker, dont you think they would have used someone other than zordiak? i cant see mafia saying 'ok taz, u fake tracker and report that you tracked zodiark N1' considering that taz lynched him on D2.

i mean, i understand now that both mafs dont visit, so a non-visit could still be guilty... but if you were going to fake, why not do it on someone you didnt end up lynching?

I don't think this is a good argument. Look at Mad World: Time Travel mafia in my wiki to see my scum fake-PR claim. I claimed targets that turned out to be very sub-optimal choices. We can't assume that all scum fake claims will somehow be air tight. Scum make mistakes too.

LMP: I agree that Taz is terrible. But I think claiming a PR like that when you were to claim after him was a significant risk. And just a Watcher is rather weak. Maybe nor outrageously weak, but still. I don't think the Zod-track-and-lynch is that relevant either. (I would say tracking him wasn't that good a choice in the first place).

I agree that it was a risk, but I don't think it can be ruled out. Notice how he didn't want to claim targets but asked for my claim right away. Only when others said "we want your targets" did he give them up. This links with my above point about how scum can make bad fake-claims too. Could be that he didn't want to commit to the gambit in case I was an actual power role. And if they are 2 goons, then 1 watcher only isn't that hard to believe. I don't think we should turn the game into trying to outguess the mod on setup. 1 tracker 1 watcher is possible, and just 1 watcher vs goons is also possible.

Have I missed something in your iso, or is that really the first time you say anything about UT?

This is a good question. ISOs on TDC and podium as soon as I have some time.

[LimMePls]

^^ if mafia was going to fake tracker, dont you think they would have used someone other than zordiak? i cant see mafia saying 'ok taz, u fake tracker and report that you tracked zodiark N1' considering that taz lynched him on D2.

i mean, i understand now that both mafs dont visit, so a non-visit could still be guilty... but if you were going to fake, why not do it on someone you didnt end up lynching?

I don't think this is a good argument. Look at Mad World: Time Travel mafia in my wiki to see my scum fake-PR claim. I claimed targets that turned out to be very sub-optimal choices. We can't assume that all scum fake claims will somehow be air tight. Scum make mistakes too.

A little different... it's not a matter of who he investigated, it's a matter of him not acting on his results. Why would maf fake a tracker report on someone that the tracker lynched without ever mentioning his result?

FYI - your wiki link to time travel goes to the wrong game.

I see how you think it is different, but why is it less scummy? In other words, if he really is a tracker, why wouldn't he have played differently in regards to Zodiark? We agree that if he is scum he made a poor choice of who to claim he tracked.

Thanks for pointing out the wrong link. It's fixed.

I agree that it was a risk, but I don't think it can be ruled out. Notice how he didn't want to claim targets but asked for my claim right away. Only when others said "we want your targets" did he give them up. This links with my above point about how scum can make bad fake-claims too.

This behavior is consistent with taz's previous PR roles... in this game he does the same thing as cop. He reveals that he is cop, and got a guilty... but says he won't say who it was, so that people can discuss the game more. ...naturally we told him to reveal.

This just blows my mind. He was claiming cop with a guilty, but didn't want to say who the guilty was on? I guess that does affect the read of this situation. Thanks for the meta.

And if they are 2 goons, then 1 watcher only isn't that hard to believe. I don't think we should turn the game into trying to outguess the mod on setup. 1 tracker 1 watcher is possible, and just 1 watcher vs goons is also possible.

I dont see anything wrong with speculating about the setup at this point. IMO only 1 pr for town (a watcher) isn't very likely.

Why is only 1 pr for town unlikely, particularly with a powerful PR like watcher? I think we could go round and round on this and in the end we'll have nothing solid gained. That's why I'm saying I don't think trying to out guess the mod on setup is going to be helpful.

In other news, I just finished a TDC ISO. Its basically 38 posts of town goodness. I started doing post by post analysis like I did with UT and Taz, when I realized that after every quote I was just basically saying "I agree". TDC is almost certainly town.

Podium's up next and then I'm ready for a lynch.

[LimMePls]

Podium ISO 0-10 could be summed up by saying "Dr. Pepper makes a bunch of hard to understand bullet point lists that don't make much sense. podium calls him on it, they argue, podium is right, and Dr. P rage quits".

This post is one giant wall of saying things that don't really mean anything. I think you manage to imply Me, ABR, Dr.P, Nexus, and UT are scummy in the same post. Looks like a lot of IIOA with 0 scum hunting.

TDC has already claimed vanilla. If you guys put albert at L-1, we risk exposing a PR and/or narrowing mafia's choices for PR hits. Keep that in mind.

It's a toss-up between them to me, but since TDC has already claimed vanilla i am ok with that lynch.

2 claims on D1 is very bad for town, imo.

if you assume 2 mafia (but there could be 3 which would be worse), they have a 1/5 (or 1/4 with 3 maf) chance of killing a PR... on N1. you guys need to keep that in mind.

i would rather lynch a VT than risk exposing/killing a PR, when we have a mislynch (or mislynches) to spare.

If anyone was worried, TDC/podium is NOT a scum team in this game, based on these interactions.

Yes and No. I don't want a second claim today, but that doesn't mean you have to vote TDC. I'm saying don't hammer ABR just for the sake of hammering someone.

If the majority still wants to go after ABR, then that will happen. I just want to ensure everyone knows what's at stake here before we get a 2nd claim. If you think ABR is scum, and are aware of the implications of 2 claims (and are ok with it), then do whatever you think you should.

I'm not a fan of how all the interaction of D1 went down between podium and me. I said I was willing to hammer ABR because of his attempt to hammer TDC before he even had a chance to claim. Then podium tells me to not hammer "just for the sake of hammering". I had never said I was gonna hammer for the sake of hammering. I dunno if this is podium just trying to help town, or scum-podium happy with either of those situations and just posturing for town-cred.

This post is starting to worry me a little bit about a Taz/Podium scum team. Some of there interactions like this one are weird statements that allude to scummy actions, but they never out and out call each other scum.

it's been a while, so i'm assuming that zodiark read my last post and chose not to respond... so

VOTE: Zodiark13

For refusing to discuss the problem with me, and to move the game along. If he responds, i can reconsider. That puts him at L-1.

This is an example of podium following the crowd. He didn't get on Zodiark wagon early D2, but just followed the crowd with this vote. With a wishy-washy "If he responds i can reconsider".

Personally i still find Dr. P's rage quit scummy, and that's probably always going to be associated with that slot for the rest of the game.

Still think zordiak's behavior was scummy, and lynch worthy, at the moment.

LMP... been getting a slightly scummy scum vibe here... mostly gut. dont like how he says he thought UT was scum, but didn't pursue/vote him today until incognito started making a case.

Haven't been a fan of Taz's input so far.

That's about all i got... can't really get into this game, and haven't seen much that has jumped out and grabbed me.

This is another post where you point out a number of possibilities, but don't really take a hard stance on any of them. I also really hate the interactions I have with podium here about my UT case, and I don't think I ever got a fully satisfying answer from podium on this.

@Podium: Do you admit that I made a case on UT D1? Do you admit that absolutely NO ONE agreed or really even discussed my case? Do you admit that D2 when I was pushing Zodiark, I was still probbing UT over his fence-sitting? If you don't admit any of these, please explain because I'm pretty sure they are fact. If you do admit them, then please explain what was bad about moving my vote to UT when someone from town finally started paying attention to my case.

For the record, i've played with taz a couple of times, and his behavior can be quite erratic/spazzy.

Here is an example... skim through pages 8-13 where taz replaces in, makes like 4 votes, and ends up accidentally hammering our doctor... after previously stating that he refused to vote for that person... ...

He replaced out right after that...

More Taz defense.

taz, you fail pretty hard man. why did you let us lynch an innocent person? ...or a better question:

WHY WERE YOU VOTING FOR AN INNOCENT PERSON?

Dont both mafia visit the night kill... regardless of who submits it? that's how it works on other sites.

...this reminds me of a game i was in in which we lynched a guy who claimed vanilla townie.... and he was actually the cop. lol. next time give us the information taz.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

that being said, i dont think taz is scum. first of all, it fits his normal play (bizarre)... and secondly, maf would have discussed this and known to give a result that wasn't batshit crazy. also i dont see anything wrong with a setup of watcher/tracker.

i dont have a town read on anyone at this point, pretty much. if i had to pick right now, id probably go with the low hanging fruit... UT.

More defense of Taz. The idea that Taz-scum wouldn't make the claim because it would have been more carefully constructed is not persuasive to me. The "I don't have a town read on anyone" is also pretty scummy, as is the follow-up to that being go for the easy lynch that others are pushing.

at one point in time, there was a vote for UT and a vote for Taz today. We were all active during this. If LMP/TDC were a team, they could have hammered... so i dont think that is a possibility.

im gonna have a hard time accepting that taz/ut are a team, even though LMP raises good points.

so from my pov its ut/lmp or ut/tdc... and right now i feel like it's probably ut/tdc.

And another defense of Taz. "Even though LMP raises good points".

@podium: Where does your read of Taz come from? meta only? He looks really scummy to me.

[LimMePls]

In other news, I just finished a TDC ISO. Its basically 38 posts of town goodness. I started doing post by post analysis like I did with UT and Taz, when I realized that after every quote I was just basically saying "I agree". TDC is almost certainly town.

Do you plan on ISO'ing Dr. Pepper? Wouldn't that be relevant as well?

IIRC Dr.Pepper was like 8 or so bullet list points that didn't really make a whole lot of sense. I'll look at the ISO, but I don't feel to hopeful about finding anything useful there.

[LimMePls]

As for UT-Taz.. what do you make of UT's reaction to the claim? Panicking over what he might've thought was a particularly bad fake claim?

I thought it looked like "I know I'm going down today, let me try and distance from my buddy as much as possible".

If they were going to bus, why not have Taz claim to have seen UT kill Incognito?

This is an excellent question. Taz's claim being fake is seeming less and less likely.

[LimMePls]

I'm not going to quote 370. I'll try and answer anything that looks like a question. If I miss something you want answered let me know.

1) No I don't think you did much analysis. All you did was summarize what was happened. The few times you did "analyze" things, it was wishy washy. Example:

LMP - If one of the votes on blaze was a scum vote, my gut says this is the one. but, it could mean nothing.

If

and

but it could mean nothing

. Not exactly taking a stand, looks more like setting yourself up to later call me scum if its convenient.

2) Those quotes show TDC/podium isn't possible because I don't think scum on D1 would have been trying to persuade others to hammer there teammate just to keep another townie from claiming. If your mate was put at L-1 and forced to claim, and then people started looking at another wagon, it would take a lot of guts/really strong scum play to actually say "no no, don't lynch that guy, this guy has already claimed, we should lynch him" knowing that you'd lose your partner on D1.

3) Alright, NOW I understand our confusion. Yes, when I said "for the 'hammer'" I meant ABR's attempt to hammer the replacement without a claim or even a chance to say anything. Not just so that I could hammer. Why would you think I'd vote ABR just to hammer him, that doesn't make sense.

4) I'm starting to see the light on Taz's claim being less likely to come from scum. But the only meta I have is the one game I've seen his town play. I don't know what his scum play looks like, for all I know it is the exact same as his town play. If you have Taz-scum meta I'd love to see a link. Otherwise knowing that he is playing the way he did once as town doesn't tell me that he is town unless I have the scum to contrast it to.

5) Your D1 play in regards to Dr.P wasn't following along, but pretty much everything after that does look like following along to me. You make a lot of summary posts where you point out things but then don't take hard stances on them.

6) I'm pointing out your summary posts because to me they are multiple examples of you making statements like you're on the sideline just pointing things out, but not taking a stance on them. You do it multiple times. The reason I'm "cherry picking" those is because I was quoting the parts of your ISO that looked scummy to me, since the whole purpose of my ISOs was to rank the remaining players.

7) "I don't have a scum read on anyone" is scummy because it plays into opportunistic scum. You get to sit back and see which way the wind is blowing, and no one can contradict you because you get to say "well, everyone looked scummy to me, I said so right here". In my experience playing this game, the most glaring scum tell I've found is people being opportunistic/wishy-washy. When I see statements like those, it immediately sends up a flag.

8) NO ONE WAS PUSHING FOR HIS LYNCH? Are you kidding me!? WOW! I'm simply amazed.

As for 371, I disagree completely with your assertion that watcher is weaker than a cop. Watchers are so powerful some have questioned if they should even be in the game. The ability to find friendly PRs, as well as catch scum is awesome, and if you have a claimed PR to watch, you're essentially guaranteed to find scum. I will assert that a watcher in a setup with no other PRs is weaker than a watcher with other PRs to watch.

[LimMePls]

*facepalm*

QFT.

[LimMePls]

1) No I don't think you did much analysis. All you did was summarize what was happened.

In the post in question, i took several observations and explained how they could have scummy motives behind them... how is that not analysis? Tell me what definition of 'analysis' you are holding me to?

Its just information if you point out that it could be scummy. Its analysis when you come to a conclusion. I could sit around in a game and point out scummy things people do all day. If I'm unwilling to follow that up with anything then it is worthless and does nothing but make you look like contributing without contributing.

The few times you did "analyze" things, it was wishy washy. Example:

More cherry picking.

And? I've already explained the purpose of the ISO was to look for scummy posts. By definition it would be cherry picking.

2) Those quotes show TDC/podium isn't possible because I don't think scum on D1 would have been trying to persuade others to hammer there teammate just to keep another townie from claiming. If your mate was put at L-1 and forced to claim, and then people started looking at another wagon, it would take a lot of guts/really strong scum play to actually say "no no, don't lynch that guy, this guy has already claimed, we should lynch him" knowing that you'd lose your partner on D1.

Still dont see why you think that proves that we aren't a team. Bussing... trying to look town... etc.

Wow... this is fascinating to me. I think this might be the first time someone has argued with me that their behavior could make them part of a scum team. If this evidence doesn't prove you guys aren't a scum team, then you not hammering today doesn't show it either. You could have just been unwilling to gamble the game if the town voter unvoted when you went for the quick lynch. Which is actually a much safer play if you are reasonably certain you'll get a UT lynch. Which you are now conveniently pushing despite all attempts previously to deny UT-scum.

5) Your D1 play in regards to Dr.P wasn't following along, but pretty much everything after that does look like following along to me.

D1 - Led the charge
D2 - I made the first argument towards Zordiak's hammer. Again, how am i following, but you aren't? You're vote came after 3 people had already expressed suspicion.
D3 - There's no following here... it's common sense/POE.

This quote is getting its own post. This is an outrageous distortion of the facts.

6) I'm pointing out your summary posts because to me they are multiple examples of you making statements like you're on the sideline just pointing things out, but not taking a stance on them.

What am i supposed to do... vote every time i see someone do something scummy? I took a hard stance on Dr. P, ABR, Zordiak, and now, UT...

All easy targets. Again, you only push UT now, but yesterday you argued pretty hard against any suspicions at UT.

7) "I don't have a scum read on anyone" is scummy because it plays into opportunistic scum. You get to sit back and see which way the wind is blowing, and no one can contradict you because you get to say "well, everyone looked scummy to me, I said so right here".

*TOWN read

I fail to see how that statement is scummy, especially at this stage in the game. How could scum benefit from saying that? I named my lynch choice in the same post. How would someone contradict me?

Quite right, I meant town read, not scum. I seriously don't understand these questions. The answers are obvious. If you say you have no town reads, then you are better positioned to vote/hammer any of them because you haven't painted yourself into a corner.

8) NO ONE WAS PUSHING FOR HIS LYNCH? Are you kidding me!? WOW! I'm simply amazed.

Why? His hammer made him the lynch choice by default, who am i following?

So if not for his hammer yesterday you wouldn't find him scummy? But just the hammer means you want him lynched? If he hadn't hammered, would anyone in the game be scummier than him?

As for 371, I disagree completely with your assertion that watcher is weaker than a cop. Watchers are so powerful some have questioned if they should even be in the game.

I've never seen people prefer to have a watcher instead of a cop. Cop gets a result every single time... a watcher first has to get lucky and choose a target that someone else chooses... and then you still don't know the alignment of the person that visited. (disregarding anti watcher/cop PR's)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Anyway... are we all ready to vote UT?

Nope. I want answers to my most recent questions. I'd also like UT to comment on everything since the last time he posted. His laying low is only making his lynch more inevitable, but we have a lot of time, I see no need to rush this. The more information we get now the better situation we leave ourselves in tomorrow.

[LimMePls]

5) Your D1 play in regards to Dr.P wasn't following along, but pretty much everything after that does look like following along to me.

D1 - Led the charge
D2 - I made the first argument towards Zordiak's hammer. Again, how am i following, but you aren't? You're vote came after 3 people had already expressed suspicion.
D3 - There's no following here... it's common sense/POE.

Here are quotes of all the posts following the start of D2 up until your first post that even mentions Zodiark:

What's gonna be our subject of discourse now it's daytime?

Bah, go Town

What's gonna be our subject of discourse now it's daytime?

Hang people that make meaningless posts.


<-- but kinda -->

How about we start with "Why was ABR hammered before he claimed?" or "Is there some prize on quick lynching I'm not aware of?"

TDC has made up for Dr P's mistakes, making Dr P seem to me much less like scum and more like a really bad player.

You need to elaborate on this. All I see is you going on and on about how I totally should be lynched because I claimed Vanilla and because that's "rule two of lynching" (you never responded at all to my suggestion that you used this to load off responsibility for my impending lynch), and when the wind turns and ABR is the choice of the moment you suddenly decide I'm oh so town and have made up for Dr P and hammer ABR.

/confirm
More tonight.

All I see is you going on and on about how I totally should be lynched because I claimed Vanilla and because that's "rule two of lynching"

I said this once, not "going on and on about" as you are attempting to suggest.

and when the wind turns and ABR is the choice of the moment you suddenly decide I'm oh so town and have made up for Dr P and hammer ABR.

Albert was acting more scummy than you, 'nuff said.

What's gonna be our subject of discourse now it's daytime?

In the event this is a serious question, I think we should try to identify the killer based on ed's NK. Obviously either he was suspicious of someone who is scum or created watcher tells/breadcrumbs. There is also the possibility that scum just got lucky, but I personally consider this unlikely.

All I see is you going on and on about how I totally should be lynched because I claimed Vanilla and because that's "rule two of lynching"

I said this once, not "going on and on about" as you are attempting to suggest.

You were going on and on about it as much as one can do within the three or so posts you had between I replaced in and you hammered ABR.

and when the wind turns and ABR is the choice of the moment you suddenly decide I'm oh so town and have made up for Dr P and hammer ABR.

Albert was acting more scummy than you, 'nuff said.

What I am asking is for you to explain what made you change from

I'm fine with my vote

. My second suspicion is Albert.

to (in your very next post)

TDC has made up for Dr P's mistakes, making Dr P seem to me

much less like scum and more like a really bad player

.

(which does not just mean that ABR overtook me in scuminess, but rather directly implies that your suspicion of my slot lessened),
when all that I posted between these two posts is (and I quote in entirety):

@TDC: Could you give a breakdown on all the players? If you are lynched and flip town everyone will have a confirmed honest second opinion.

Meh. ABR's hammer was terrible. Already mentioned that Zord seems to be trying to get the lynch through without being particularly responsible for it. (It would be "anti-town" to not vote me plus the whole appeal to authority (which is kind of funny because he's not actually mentioning where he pulled it) rule two of lynching babble).
That's about it at this point.

I'm undecided-he hasn't really posted all that much relevant (although the same could be said for most people), and he was happy to hammer the player slot before it replaced.

Actually, he hammered one hour after entry was announced.

Mod: I'm voting ABR, not podium.

Ah, wasn't aware my predecessors vote carried over..

unvote, vote ABR

I don't see how these two posts could've changed your opinion of my slot that much, which is what makes me think you were just jumping at the hammer opportunity that presented itself and thought you'd get away with it.

All I see is you going on and on about how I totally should be lynched because I claimed Vanilla and because that's "rule two of lynching"

I said this once, not "going on and on about" as you are attempting to suggest.

and when the wind turns and ABR is the choice of the moment you suddenly decide I'm oh so town and have made up for Dr P and hammer ABR.

Albert was acting more scummy than you, 'nuff said.

What's gonna be our subject of discourse now it's daytime?

In the event this is a serious question, I think we should try to identify the killer based on ed's NK. Obviously either he was suspicious of someone who is scum or created watcher tells/breadcrumbs. There is also the possibility that scum just got lucky, but I personally consider this unlikely.

I agree with TDC about your hammer of ABR after pushing Dr.P/TDC lynch so hard. Also, given a quick ISO of edmund, I'd like to

Vote: Zodiark13

Zodiark, trying our hands at identifying, on day two, the killer based on edmund's death is basically a Wifom dead end.

Zodiark, trying our hands at identifying, on day two, the killer based on edmund's death is basically a Wifom dead end.

It's also a distraction; what we need to try is to get a handle on Confid Anon's and other people who haven't posted on day two's input and then talk about posts, that are not a matter of wifom, but of interpretation.

Zodiark, trying our hands at identifying, on day two, the killer based on edmund's death is basically a Wifom dead end.

QFT

It's really rough when you have a decent player replace into a slot that was acting like total scum. On the one hand, I want to give TDC a chance, because he's not acting anything like Dr Pepper, but on the other hand Dr Pepper was acting like scum and I know I should care about the slot more than the player. The best thing to do imo is analyze the surroundings of the Dr Pepper wagon and the ABR lynch. But still,

IGMEOY TDC

I'm not so much thinking that Zodiark hammering before the claim was such a scummy thing. What would you guys have said if he'd said "oh, uh, I claim cop"? I think revealing ABR's role would have either required a PR to counterclaim (since there seems to be no vig we couldn't have found him dead last night if he'd claimed a killing PR that someone else had and we kept him alive, or the cop/doc would have had to come out which would have been a bad plan on day 1). We had some discussion before the hammer about the relative intelligence of requiring a claim and I kind of fall on the side of not wanting a second claim on day 1.

I'll have to think/observe/reread more to decide where my vote needs to go.

EBWOP

I'm not so much thinking that Zodiark hammering before the claim was such a scummy thing. What would you guys have said if he'd said "oh, uh, I claim cop"? I think revealing ABR's role would have either required a PR to counterclaim .

should read "I think that from our perspective yesterday, revealing ABR's role might have either required a PR to counterclaim .... or we would have just probably ended up lynching a claimed VT anyway."

It's really rough when you have a decent player replace into a slot that was acting like total scum.

On the one hand

, I want to give TDC a chance, because he's not acting anything like Dr Pepper,

but on the other hand

Dr Pepper was acting like scum and I know I should care about the slot more than the player. The best thing to do imo is analyze the surroundings of the Dr Pepper wagon and the ABR lynch.

The bolding is mine. UT is whishy-washy fence sitting again. What a shock.

This game gets my priority tomorrow, so hopefully I'll have a good post tomorrow morning.

I'm not so much thinking that Zodiark hammering before the claim was such a scummy thing.

The problem is not just the claim thing, but the haste in general. The very least he could've done is give everyone (including ABR's potential scumbuddy) a chance to react to the imminent hammer.

And I don't really remember you being particularly suspicious of Dr. P at the time, could you elaborate what exactly it is that bothers you so much about him?

Yah, there's a certain timing element to Zodiak's vote, and from this I see Zodiark's game play as suspect.

Vote: Zodiark

24+ hours and only 3 posts. I'm guessing this game is due for some prods. I have nothing new to add. I'm happy with the wagon and eagerly awaiting ConfidAnon's catch up post.

24+ hours and only 3 posts. I'm guessing this game is due for some prods.

No player is in prod territory.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Zodiark seems to be the big target today... i'll repeat my earlier comment.

and when the wind turns and ABR is the choice of the moment you suddenly decide I'm oh so town and have made up for Dr P and hammer ABR.

Albert was acting more scummy than you, 'nuff said.

The point is that you said that Dr. P was 'mega-obvious' scum:

Zodiark13 wrote: Seriously, he ragequits the second he get pressure on him. If thats not mega-obv scum right there, then I should stop playing right now, because if it this isn't a perfect(albeit a perfectly poor) example of scummy play, then I know nothing about scumhunting.

and later, you apparently forget about this when the ABR wagon picks up steam. Why do you no longer think that Dr. P was obvious scum? TDC's input has no bearing on the conclusion you reached from Dr. P's behavior.

So, first off you are lying to say you were the first to question him. TDC was. But IMO even worse than that, you only offered your opinion on the matter once practically everyone in the game had chimed in and offered there opinion. The only person who hadn't was ConfidAnon who was a replacement that hadn't ever caught up and eventually gets replaced by Incognito. So you are flat out lying to claim you were the first person to question Zodiark and that you weren't going along with the town, you absolutely were. You even admit it in your post where you finally do discuss it.

Zodiark seems to be the big target today

So you don't begin to even discuss it until it's the "big target today". Until then your only post was a snarky shot at trying to paint Taz as scummy, without actually calling him scummy.

And last, you don't even vote him until much later, and presumably not even because you think he is scum, but as a pressure vote to get him to answer your question:

it's been a while, so i'm assuming that zodiark read my last post and chose not to respond... so

VOTE: Zodiark13

For refusing to discuss the problem with me, and to move the game along. If he responds, i can reconsider. That puts him at L-1.

Leaving yourself wiggle room to leave the wagon if you want. This is textbook scum behavior.

[LimMePls]

Ok...what exactly do you want me to respond to? Look at this from my perspective:

Why exactly is my hammer scummy? From my perspective, I was gonna die either today or tomorrow. It was a given. LMP has a hard-on for me being scum, Incog grabbed onto that case and wouldn't hear it any other way, and Taz's votes are so all over the place, I think you could count on him to vote for anyone. I was basically at L-1. Would the pro-town thing be to just accept the lynch? Really? I had a decent chance of hitting scum by hammering Zodiark, he was by no means confirmed. Yeah, it was a gambit, and yeah that gambit failed.

The problem with your hammer is not that you placed it, but how. Too early and in response to Incog prodding you to do "something". You were a topic of discussion at the time, but not really a competing wagon.

Yeah, I took a gambit on Taz being scum, but I was pretty sure I was gonna get lynched and there wasn't much I could do about it. I get lynched it was game over anyway, so I figure I may as well try SOMETHING.

Again there is no reason why you would have to place that vote right there and then. Nobody was voting you.

The urgency you use to justify your gambits did not exist.

I was going to reply to 382 but basically everything that I would have said is summarized right here. I think 382 is podium suddenly realizing that he needs to actually have a lynch target for tomorrow. Now he decides to say I've been scummy to him all game. He can even support it by pointing back to some of his statements about me. That is why I call his behavior scummy. He's been doing that to practically everyone all game, so that when the time comes to lynch them he hasn't painted himself into a corner. That is the scummy nature of the "I don't have a town read on anyone" statement. If he'd decided to pick TDC instead of me for his target, he could just as easily say "I've been sure he is scum all game, just look back at what I've said".

I'm ready to lynch.

Vote: Untrod Tripod

[LimMePls]

Can you refresh me on what you noted on him prior to today?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I will say that i really found lynchmepls and nexus's votes to be scummier than Dr. Pepper's actions at the time i voted him. However, i was much more interested in seeing how dr. pepper would react to some pressure/accusations, than i was in voting for either LMP or Nexus.

LMP and nexus, your votes on blaze looked

really

bad... definitely possible that it was scum trying to take advantage of the situation. that's not to say that it was... but it definitely looks like it could be a possibility.

^^ note that this was another ploy similar to what i did today.

LMP - If one of the votes on blaze was a scum vote, my gut says this is the one. but, it could mean nothing.

LMP... been getting a slightly scummy scum vibe here... mostly gut. dont like how he says he thought UT was scum, but didn't pursue/vote him today until incognito started making a case.

All things said with no conviction and leaving you wiggle room to vote me or not at the best opportunity.

[LimMePls]

Everything I would say in this back and forth argument has already been said by TDC.

The only thing I'd like to address is this:

Let me get this straight... i have shown where LMP contradicted himself, lied, and made statements that are illogical. Yet, you want to lynch me because... because... well... you haven't really said, as far as i can see.

1. Your claim that I contradicted myself is ridiculous. I argue that you've protected UT (yesterday by deflecting attention away from UT and towards Zodiark). That doesn't mean that you haven't since changed to bussing him. They are not mutually exclusive. Your play yesterday in regards to the UT wagon is nothing but scum motivations. Your play today in regards to him is as well, as well as your "sudden" revelation that you've been sure I'm scum all game.

2. This quote oozes squirming scum.

[LimMePls]

podium:
Interpretations tend to be subjective. If your posts where less open to interpretation there would be less for me to subjectively interpret.

Anyway, don't really see the point in replying to 436, because we're just repeating ourselves there, and I'm content with 437.

I would like you to do the following: go into your iso, start with you final posts from D2, from there one explain for each of your posts what your then current stance on UT was, and if it changed, what made it change. End at the point you were convinced he had to be scum.

I would very much like to see this.

LMP:
Why is Taz dead and not you or me? Wouldn't going one to one with Taz (if Taz had even managed to not target the one of us two that died) be preferable to this?

Well, this requires some setup speculation. In newbie 9 man games, with 2 town PRs there is a scum RB. So, if that holds to this game as well, then I agree that it would make more sense for the scum to RB Taz and NK you or me. But, if there is no scum RB/RB-like-role then obviously they can't leave the tracker, since a track on them or a track on the townie that doesn't get killed is an automatic loss. So either the scum didn't have a way to block Taz, or they did, but they wanted him gone anyway.

Would you agree with me that UT reacted much more heavily to Incognito suspecting him than to you suspecting him?

I'm not sure what you mean here. Could you quote the reaction to Incognito? I don't remember them exchanging words. I'll go back and ISO Incognito to see what you are referring to. As for his reaction to me, he pretty much spent the whole game casting sideways suspicions at me without ever backing it up with a serious case/vote, and then late yesterday when he realized that he'd be coming into today without UT, he suddenly launches the "I've always thought LMP is scum". That pretty much sealed it for me. I want to see the self-ISO that TDC asks from podium, but I'm all but certain based on the play that podium is the last scum.

[LimMePls]

Just reread all of D2, and the only interaction between Incog and podium I saw was podium saying he had a hard time getting into the game, Incog asking him when that started happening, and podium saying D2. So you'll have to help me see what you're talking about TDC.

[LimMePls]

Oh I see, sorry. I'll have to go back and look at that.

[LimMePls]

But I didn't know I was going into lylo with TDC, he or I could have died. You were the one that flailed about like crazy yesterday once we approached deadline.

The rest of what you are saying is claptrap.

@TDC: Yes, he did react more to Incog than to me.

Vote: podium

No way TDC is scum and podium isn't.

[LimMePls]

But I didn't know I was going into lylo with TDC, he or I could have died. You were the one that flailed about like crazy yesterday once we approached deadline.

But i didnt know i was going into lylo with TDC, he or I could have died. You were the one that flailed about like crazy yesterday once we approached deadline.

See? It's a pointless argument, and means nothing.

This is hilarious. You trying to paint your behavior yesterday as similar to mine is laughable.

The rest of what you are saying is claptrap.

i.e. - he's right, and i can't rebut it... so ill just insult it

Actually I can do more than rebut it. The fact that you were willing to say "LMP is more likely scum" is even worse than if you'd actually picked me as scum and pushed it. Its yet another example of you leaving yourself all the options open to vote whichever way presents itself as the better option. You're doing it again today. You express no suspicion towards TDC in any of your posts, which I guess given your statement that I'm scummier than him, would tend to mean you think I'm the last scum. But you don't actually vote, you sit around defending yourself and waiting, hoping someone else will vote first.

If TDC is scum and you're town, then GG TDC, you played well and were massively helped by really bad town.

[LimMePls]

Here is the post, so I'm not accused of misrepping it:

I guess i'll go ahead and reveal now that earlier when i dropped that little note that i was leaning UT/TDC, it was a ploy. I was more susp. of LMP and wanted to see what kind of reaction that would illicit. I wasn't expecting all this discussion to follow... actually i thought day would have ended by now... anyway, i figured i might as well put it out here now, since we're having a big discussion.

I've found LMP kinda scummy since the start of the game... i haven't read the UT/LMP argument, but LMP was pretty much on him most of the game... looks like a possible buss to me.

But today is where any doubt i had has been removed, with this last few pages of discussion.

He realizes it will be me, him, and TDC in lylo... so he does ISO's on everybody. But... he ends up not even ISO'ing TDC because 'everything is town' from him. Ok... i might could buy that... but the fact that he didn't include Dr. P i found odd. I brought it up, and he still dismissed it. I dont believe that anyone that was REALLY trying to decide against two people would forgo such an important part of that role.

Now, with the line of questions against me, i see a lot of scummy tactics, that i have highlighted with the past few posts. The biggest is his contradiction of acknowledging that i made a post that implied UT was scummy, and later said that i had "argued pretty hard against any susp. of UT". Which is a lie as well, as i haven't said anything in defense of UT all game.

His conclusion that TDC and I aren't partners because of my day 1 insistence of hanging TDC without more claims, seemed very odd. Why would someone discount the possibility of bussing that easily? His conclusion was much more confident than i believe the evidence shows.

I'm sure there is more stuff, but that's off the top of my head, and is enough to satisfy myself as to who i should vote for.

So that's that...

(Bold mine for emphasis)

Given that statement, I have a couple of questions: If all doubt has been removed, why are you sitting around today arguing with both of us and jockeying for position, instead of voting me. If you still have doubts (and thus you don't want to vote), then why did you say yesterday that all doubt had been removed?

You spin a lot of words to try and confuse the issue, but the plain simple truth is no ones play in this game matches up better with UT scum than yours. Your entire game has been "let me cast as many suspicions as I can out there so that when the time comes I'm able to justify hoping on any wagon". Your D1 play is pushing hard for Dr. P scum, but then suddenly yesterday "all doubt" has been removed that I am scum and TDC isn't. When I push UT D1, you have nothing to offer. When I push him some more D2, you have nothing to offer, when Incog and I push UT D2, you start pushing at the Zodiark wagon more, and call me scummy for "tunneling". However, despite your casting suspicion on pretty much everyone in the game, you never call UT scum until the hammer + mass claim pretty much force you to. Then you act like we're all supposed to see you as townie for it.

[LimMePls]

Well, this requires some setup speculation. In newbie 9 man games, with 2 town PRs there is a scum RB. So, if that holds to this game as well, then I agree that it would make more sense for the scum to RB Taz and NK you or me. But, if there is no scum RB/RB-like-role then obviously they can't leave the tracker, since a track on them or a track on the townie that doesn't get killed is an automatic loss. So either the scum didn't have a way to block Taz, or they did, but they wanted him gone anyway.

Taz wasn't exactly confirmed. That's my point he would've gone against Taz rather than against you. Wouldn't that have been a better prospect?

Either he isn't a roleblocker, and so he was forced to kill Taz, or he is a roleblocker and he liked his chances against you and me better than his chances aginst Taz/(one of us). Perhaps podium thought he could paint me as the villain easier than he could paint you/Taz? Particularly after his "I'm now convinced" post. Also he had already taken a hard stance that Taz was telling the truth in his role claim, so he wouldn't have the wiggle room today against Taz/(one of us) like he did at the start of today. Even after his "convinced" post, he has still tried to sit back and hope he could get one of us to vote the other.

@TDC: Yes, he did react more to Incog than to me.

Any thoughts why that could be?
I mean he has these really massive replies to Incognito and to you he's just like "lulz, you're wrong".

I just went back and looked at this, and I actually think this isn't exactly correct. When I first started pushing UT D1, he did respond pretty strongly. Only when he realized that no one was agreeing with me did he back off into the more "whatever" approach to my probing. Then when Incog showed up and agreed with me, he then went back into a more aggressive responding.

I think the two situations were different. When I was pressuring him it was just me and the game was still 9 players. So he was under much less pressure. When Incog came in, it was suddenly Incog and me and there were only 7 players left. 2/7 is something to be much more afraid of than 1/9.

[LimMePls]

TDC he doesn't have a good answer for you because there wasn't a thought process that went into it. He only agreed with UT-scum when the massclaim forced him to. The massclaim is interesting as well, as podium was so sure that Taz was telling the truth about the Tracker claim. I think the mass claim was a terrible idea, if Taz had never been forced to claim tracker, I'm sure he'd have lived one more day and today would be an auto win for us. We should have been able to lynch UT yesterday without the mass claim. All of podium's play is one giant glaring "I'm UT scum-buddy" sign.

[LimMePls]

^^ that's a textbook scum manipulation attempt. half the stuff in it is ridiculous.

Massclaim on lylo was a bad idea? lol wut

You stated that the only thing you are really considering is the UT connection, so he is beating the heck out of that subject.

I feel that your subjective uneasiness about my connection to UT gets canceled out (or nearly) by the game long UT bus by LMP. That's why i want you to set that aside for a moment and consider the rest of our gameplay.

^^that's a textbook scum manipulation attempt. half the stuff in it is ridiculous.

Yes massclaim was a bad idea, and I said so yesterday. UT was OBVIOUSLY scum. The fact that you couldn't see that only shows MORE that you are his buddy. Of course you want us to set your interaction with UT aside, its damning all by itself. Even if we do though, your play suggests calculating scum, nearly every bit of it. The only thing you did with any passion was the attack with Dr. Pepper, and that was D1, where faking passion as scum is really easy. The rest of your play is complete cruise control.

This is making me insane. Make the right call TDC, I don't know what else to say.

[LimMePls]

LMP, what's your take on this:

Other thoughts:
Incognito, I find it kind of suspicious that you came in and buddied up with LMP. As you could read in the game I posted for LMP to read, I used this as a scum tactic in my last completed game to get on the town's good side. You buddy up with a fairly pro-town player (I'd say LMP is fairly pro-town) and ride the goodwill out for as long as possible. Your predecessor(s) hardly confirm you as town, so I feel like this would actually be a good tactic if you're scum to get us to forget ConfidAnon's lurking and replacement.

It reads to me like UT was trying to sling mud at Incognito because he knew we were getting some traction on him. So pointing out Incognito's slots prior lurking and trying to paint Incog's behavior as "buddying" seemed like a good idea. I think its funny that he is basically buddying up to me in the very same post he is accusing Incog of buddying. Perhaps he was hoping I could be swayed away, since I had gone away from him once before. Also note the "kind of suspicious" and "fairly pro-town", more weasel wording which was the whole reason I was calling him scum.

[LimMePls]

I think what he is getting at is that once Taz claimed Tracker, you didn't need to hear my claim, because you knew it would be VT because you're scum. You also believed the claim without hesitation, which means you might have had some reason to believe there were outstanding town PRs, which is a good reason to want the massclaim.

[LimMePls]

Yeah, but I'm not the one claiming that it took me so long to condemn UT purely on D2 evidence, because I was waiting to see what the mass claim would bring, but then when it hadn't brought anything at all other than more or less confirming someone who I didn't suspect anyway, I did not await one of my three suspects claiming because I had already seen enough.

QFT

[LimMePls]

Would like to hear whatever comes to either of your minds on this post:

No, i have explained it pretty thoroughly at this point. Process of elimination by taking into account the votes placed today, and taz's claim.

It's actually quite strong.

I don't know how many different ways I can say this: Taz's role is not confirmed! Unless you have a hidden info role you cannot be sure his claim is true! The vote thing makes it just as likely that Taz is scum as it does me! Your case is weaksauce if it is based on that!

Both of you seem to have missed this.

"Buddy, you're giving yourself away with this 'Taz is confirmed' stuff, so knock it off".

You're about to blow this F'NG game because you are overanalyzing this one thing to hell and back. Meanwhile LMP pulled off a gamelong bus, acted scummy consistently, and keeps making these OBV MAF posts like 483 and 484... and you have yet to question him over ANYTHING he has done all game.

LOL! I attack UT from D1 for legitimate scum tells, so clearly its a bus, while you do nothing but ignore him and chainsaw defend him so clearly you are town. That is laughably absurd. Do you even hear yourself, or are you just too busy posting as much as you can to try and hide the plain fact that you have played as UT's partner this entire freaking game. Oh, but we're supposed to ignore that, I forgot. You are hilarious.

[LimMePls]

While you do nothing but ignore him and chainsaw defend him so clearly you are town.

Besides all of the 'you're a liar! nuh uh!

YOU'RE

a liar!' back and forth about who is/isn't UT's partner... this is an example of the crap i am talking about.

We played with UT for 3 days. D1 i implied he was acting scummy. D2 i criticized his hammer as being bad. D3 i pick him for lynch.

That's the only times i mentioned UT. Yet LMP keeps saying that i defended UT all game.

open. your. eyes.

You don't need to mention him to defend him. Here are the posts you made while Incog and I were pushing UT that illustrate my point:

LMP... been getting a slightly scummy scum vibe here... mostly gut. dont like how he says he thought UT was scum, but didn't pursue/vote him today until incognito started making a case.

First off this is a complete misrepresentation of me (I had pushed UT and Incog was actually copying MY case against UT). He even says when he joins in that he agrees with my arguments against UT. Even so, you don't ever actually say what you think about UT, you just say "been getting a slightly scummy scum vibe here... mostly gut". In true scumtastic form you both misrep my attack and paint me as scummy, BUT you don't actually commit to that, you just call it "slight" and "gut", leaving yourself room to back track out of it if you want.

I really don't get this. It is mind-bogglingly frustrating. Simply astonishing. I seriously do not understand the logic here.

The logic is that if UT was such a hot target in your mind, you would pursue him regardless of whether or not anyone else was with you.

Does that mean you are scum? I don't know. But that's the logic.

That is defending UT without actually defending him. Which is even scummier than just coming out and saying "I don't think UT is scum". You keep saying that you never defended UT, which is true if you only count defending as specifically mentioning the defendee. But you defended him by launching a misdirection vote at Zodiark and painting me as scummy. Also, again, here is your weasel wording "does it make you scum? I don't know" so you can back track out of this if UT ends up the lynch.

You have defended UT this whole game, while not actually engaging in discussion about him, which is even worse than outright defending him. You did it in a way where you could disavow any connection when he flipped.

For the record, here is Incog acknowledging that it is my case on UT:

Untrod Tripod:

Untrod Tripod has bugged me because I've gotten the impression that he isn't really pushing the game along. Post 60 is a major major fence-sitting post;

this was pointed out by LynchMePls, and I agree with him

- it doesn't do much more than state the obvious, it doesn't take a stance on the possible alignments of the two debaters (Dr P and podium), and lastly, it doesn't do the "looking into" that you suggest we do here:

although I agree with what people have said in that we will probably find scum on the blaze wagon.

If you thought scum was likely on that wagon, why not try and figure out who that scum is? Why throw a side comment like this and not follow it up?

There was an obvious disconnect, too, with his own description of his play and how he played here towards the end of D1; he claimed to be this cautious player who doesn't like to jump to conclusions so fast, but he was rather quick to throw the first vote out on ABR when he concluded with stating that he found ABR's play to be "anti-town". Not scummy but anti-town. I believe it was podium who pointed out the problem with UT's 6th post too; the question along the bottom had already been answered, so I don't really see the purpose of it there.

And considering the fact that it came only

after

being interrogated/voted by LynchMePls, it gave me the feeling that you were trying to appease him by "appearing active".

Can you go into more reasoning as to why you don't think Zodiark is scum too?

My bolding.

[LimMePls]

I don't have time to read the rest right now, but I'd prefer LMP to answer it first anyway.

You want me to respond to those massive walls that he directed at you? What exactly do you want me to say? He looks like he is flailing around looking to find anything he can that will sway you to his side, which you could expect from town or scum in this situation. I'm just in the unique position of knowing you are town and knowing I'm town, thus it all looks obviously scummy to me. Because you asked, here are my thoughts:

Peep this:

Contradiction/Lie and Major Misrepresentation:

I think you manage to imply Me, ABR, Dr.P, Nexus, and UT are scummy in the same post.

Again, you only push UT now, but yesterday you argued pretty hard against any suspicions at UT.

&

Which you are now conveniently pushing despite all attempts previously to deny UT-scum.

1. contradiction because... it's a contradiction

2. lie/misrep because he says that i 'argued pretty hard against any suspicioun of UT', even though the

only

times i mentioned him in the game were to imply scumminess. (TDC CONFIRMED)

What I meant by argued hard against suspicions is, like I've pointed out about a dozen times, is that you pretty much did everything you could to attack Zodiark and leave UT alone. You did make a post that tossed a bit of mud at UT, but how is that behavior a town-tell? Its actually a pretty safe distancing move. You get to call him scummy so that if he actually flips, you can point back and say "well, I kinda suspected him". As I've pointed out before this is pretty much what you did to everyone this game, even self-admittadely ("I have no town reads"), allowing you to justify any lynch and distance from your partner. IMO you just overplayed it, so its obv scum.

Nonsense/Illogical behavior

:

1. Says that because i criticized LMP's behavior, i was defending UT.

2. in response to my not wanting another claim on D1, and to proceed with a TDC lynch, he says this:

If anyone was worried, TDC/podium is NOT a scum team in this game, based on these interactions.

which makes absolutely no logical sense. (TDC CONFIRMED)

3. when iso'ing, he completely ignores a large portion of the role that he needs to buddy with at endgame.

You were definitely defending UT. You flinged a small amount of mud at UT, and then simply ignored the case/points against him at all costs, and even went on to attack me for making my case on UT. Its referred to as "chainsaw defense" on this site, where you defend a partner by starting a counter-wagon or attacking those attacking the partners. 2) It was not illogical, it makes perfect sense. I thought the likelihood that a scum heavily attacking their partner on D1, then when an opening presents itself to get a mislynch instead DEMANDING that the town hammer their partner instead was pretty much 0.

@TDC:

podium claims this is "TDC CONFIRMED". Do you agree that podium DEMANDING the town hammer his buddy to save from getting 1 more claim out and a possible mislynch would be an incredibly unlikely scum play? If not, why not?

3) The Dr. Pepper stuff was not ignored. I read it, but there wasn't much there but you and him arguing back and forth. Plus, his lists are almost impossible to understand. I did not ignore Dr. Pepper, I just didn't line by line ISO analyze the posts. I didn't "need" to buddy him, TDC-town was obv pretty much from the moment he replaced in. I wasn't afraid to say that, unlike you. Go back and ISO his play since TDC replaced in. It literally shines with townie goodness.

Buddying/Obv Maf behavior:

1. Says that he is about to perform an ISO on all parties to determine guilt. Takes the one person that is likely going to be the tie breaker and goes 'oh i read some of it and then just thought boy oh boy he is so town, so im not even going to bother'.

2. Here, here, here

I just addressed this, but again, let me make this abundantly clear: TDC's ISO is nothing but townie goodness. Seriously, show me some parts of TDC ISO that are scummy, cause I didn't see it.

Misc:

1. Game-long bus on partner. From TDC's pov, it's unknown... of course.

2. his first vote on blaze looked really scummy: Link. Blaze's vote was his very first of the game, at the beginning of the RVS stage. LMP, quotes Dr. P calling it 'textbook omgus'... and says 'ok im on board'. i read that as scum taking opportunity of the situation, and using dr. p's words as the reason for his vote, so he wouldn't have to actually accuse blaze personally.

3. In an ISO post to determine guilt, he makes a point of pointing out where i defended taz 3 times (implying suspicion)... even though one of those times it was based on meta and UT had made a nearly exact defense about taz, here. The other 2 times referred to the period in which POE nearly confirmed taz as tracker.

4. Makes no mention of my behavior throughout the game. When realizing i will be in endgame with him, all of a sudden he realizes i have also been a 'wishy washy' 'following the crowd' player.

1) Do you hear how absurd that sounds? I think bussing implies that a buddy is under suspicion and you turn against them. I was the one who created the case on UT, and pushed it as much as I could until Incog came in and helped. I also love how you use that as one of your points, when that can't be proved without it being true. "LMP was bussing UT all game. How do I know, cause LMP is scum. Why is LMP scum? Because he was bussing his partner all game". That is absurd.

2) This does not mesh with your claim that I bussed my partner all game. If I'm the sort of scum who just looks for an opportunity to vote a wagon, then why on earth was I bussing UT the whole game? I stand by my vote, at the time it was the best place for my vote. The whole thing stimulated conversation which was DESPERATELY needed, and we needed to force Blaze to participate to understand what the hell he was doing.

3) How did POE confirm him? I still maintain that he could easily have been lying. The fact that you saw it so quickly makes me think you KNEW he was telling the truth, perhaps because you have a scum PR? I pointed out your defenses because at the time podium/Taz was not ruled out. Why is my pointing out a potential scum connection bad?

4) LOL! Let me get this straight, you get to play a scum game that is all about blending into the background, flinging mud at people when the opportunity strikes, but relatively laying low, and then when you successfully slip by for 2 days, and I finally start looking at you, this makes ME scum!? ROFL!

Day 2

Then we have day 2... which is the best for last.

Zodiark hammers without a claim on a townie. Nearly everyone (note, except UT. perhaps b/c LMP was already on board?) was on Zodiarks case pretty hard, starting at end of D1 and carrying over to D2. LMP joins the party, citing TDC's criticism of Zodiarks vote... ALSO he adds 'and after a quick ISO of edmund'. Why is that relevant? Because edmund had expressed suspicoun of Zodiark on D1, and edmund was killed during the night.

OK. Then, UT continues to make a few more 'wishy washy' posts at UT, and makes some banter with me, but NEVER addresses

any

of the responses Zodiark gave, nor presses him for any additional information.

Incognito enters and says 'i dont find LMP that towny, but i do like his UT hate'... immediately LMP drops Zodiark (never to return for questions/responses) and takes up the UT case. Even incognito continued to interrogate Zodiark... LMP just pushed UT and responded to her accusations.

I hope i dont have to explain how scummy all of this D2 activity is. Several people pick up on it, and zodiark sums it up pretty good here and here.

Here, ill do it anyway: LMP votes for someone that hammered a townie without a claim, and who was under suspicion of the person that died at night. She never responds to any of his explanations, presses him for any information, nor makes any comment about the issue. She then leaves that vote, to push for someone whose entire previous case she pushed was that he was 'wishy washy'.

/perry mason

Your entire story of D2 is crap. It's all scummy retelling of the story to paint it the way you want. Also, why does my ISOing edmund and seeing that Zodiark was one of his suspects make me scum? Isn't it natural when someone is NK'ed to look back at what they said to try and find a reason why they were NK'ed? Usually they are NK'ed for one of three reasons 1) They dropped PR tells 2) They expressed suspicion of the scum. 3) They are confirmed (or obv) town. Naturally I went back and looked at edmund's ISO.

Also, I love how you paint my moving away from UT to Zodiark at the start of D2 scummy, yet then when I go back to UT and in your words "never to return for questions/responses" that makes me scummy. So if I stay on UT, (according to some in the thread) I'm scummy, if I go to Zodiark I'm scummy, if I go back to UT, I'm scummy. The whole thing is simply absurd and flat out wrong. Town can (and should) have more than 1 suspcion and can focus on more than one idea at a time. I was actively pushing the UT case, why if I felt UT was scum would I focus my attention on Zodiark?

TDC you saw how all of this happened at the time, does his description actually fit your read/recollection of the events of D2? Because I say it didn't go down like that AT ALL, and he is simply retconning D2 to fit his story.

[LimMePls]

4) LOL! Let me get this straight, you get to play a scum game that is all about blending into the background, flinging mud at people when the opportunity strikes, but relatively laying low, and then when you successfully slip by for 2 days, and I finally start looking at you, this makes ME scum!? ROFL!

Again with your theory... ok, lets talk about that for a minute. What you are calling 'sitting back, flinging mud at everyone', i call scumhunting. In analyzing the thread, i may point out something that looks suspicious or that i dont understand... but that's SCUMHUNTING. Did i point out a lot of stuff in this game on a good bit of people? Yeah. Why? Because this game was filled with bad/scummy town... people ragequitting for no reason, people hammering without claims, being difficult, etc. Just because i might have pointed out

one

questionable action somebody made, it doesn't mean that i am calling them scummy.

Besides... i would rather see someone suspicious of everyone, rather than only of a few.... scum are the only people that know the truth, and the only people that have a reason not to suspect anyone. This ties into my statement about you vs. me. You never mentioned me all game, and now you can't stop talking about how obv-maf i have been all game. Why didn't you mention any of it before?

Because as scum, you weren't interested in analyzing my gameplay throughout the game to determine my alignment... you already knew.

Calling that scumhunting is bullshit. Sitting around pointing out scummy things people occasionally do is not scum hunting. Seeing something scummy and PURSUING A LINE OF QUESTIONING AGAINST THE PERSON is scumhunting. Scum can sit back and point out little things all over the place, and it even is a pretty effective strategy. But as long as they just sit around tossing accusations without following up, they get to look town without being town. And that is exactly what you have been doing all game. I think its hysterical that of the two of us, I'm the only one who pushed a serious case against the scum, and you have the gall to say you've been scum hunting and I haven't. You're really good at twisting things to try and fit the scenario you are creating, but it's all a pile of crap.

If scumhunting is sitting around pointing out little things people do, and labeling at some point in time everyone in the game scum, without ever seriously pursuing a case on the person you find most scummy, then you are grade A awesome at it.

This is absurd.

[LimMePls]

2. You are saying that i never pushed a serious case against scum and/or followed up on my accusations... i guess you forgot about D1 ....and D2. I also guess you are forgetting how

you

never followed up on Zodiark D2, after actually voting him for a lynch.

You have GOT to be freaking kidding me. TDC you're gonna have to come in and make a decision, cause I can't argue with all this complete nonsense anymore. The idea that I wasn't pursuing UT D2, or that I didn't pursue Zodiark on D2 is simply absurd. Anyone with half a brain can go and read the events. You're just scared and trying to make my play out to look bad because you know your play D2 is what makes you so obviously UT's buddy. The idea that I didn't scum hunt D2 is simply absurd. D2 started, I pushed Zodiark for his hammer, still prodded at UT because he continued his scummy play, and then pushed him as hard as I could when I finally had some help. Do you deny that I pushed UT D1? Do you deny that Incog's case was simply a restating of all the things I'd already pointed out? If not, then how you can possibly call that not scum hunting is behind human comprehension.

TDC wake up and smell the BS.

[LimMePls]

@TDC:

podium claims this is "TDC CONFIRMED". Do you agree that podium DEMANDING the town hammer his buddy to save from getting 1 more claim out and a possible mislynch would be an incredibly unlikely scum play? If not, why not?

I don't think I said it made "no logical sense". It is a valid argument to think it is unlikely podium and I would be scum together. What I did (try to) say is that it is orders of magnitude weaker than the fact that podium and I didn't hammer UT, so I didn't really understand what the point of the argument was, since it was attempting to prove something that was already proven.
It is a valid argument in so far as when your team consists of just two people going down one at the earliest opportunity is not that good of an idea. Just to name an example, unless you stop night killing, the Tracker is suddenly equivalent to a Cop (results are conclusive about alignment) when there's just one scum left. Going from 2 to 1 is much worse than going from 3 to 2.
Podium could easily have switched to ABR right there if I had been his buddy and nobody would've thought a thing. That doesn't prove anything, but then again, it had already been proven anyway.[/quote]

I guess its true that it had already been proven, I was just providing my thoughts as I ISO'd everyone, and when I hit that event, it occured to me that it ruled out you two as a scum group. I'd also like to point out, that even if the evidence that you two hadn't hammered yet was stronger, it never hurts to have more.

3) The Dr. Pepper stuff was not ignored. I read it, but there wasn't much there but you and him arguing back and forth. Plus, his lists are almost impossible to understand. I did not ignore Dr. Pepper, I just didn't line by line ISO analyze the posts. I didn't "need" to buddy him, TDC-town was obv pretty much from the moment he replaced in. I wasn't afraid to say that, unlike you. Go back and ISO his play since TDC replaced in. It literally shines with townie goodness.

Why did you need to iso me if it was that obvious?

I was ISOing everyone still alive.

1) Do you hear how absurd that sounds? I think bussing implies that a buddy is under suspicion and you turn against them. I was the one who created the case on UT, and pushed it as much as I could until Incog came in and helped.

Meh, it has happened to myself that I thought something my buddy did was really obv scum and that he would get lynched very fast and I better be on it and then nobody cared.

I dunno what else to say about this. If you think my pursuing him was bussing, nothing I say is going to change that.

Day 2

Then we have day 2... which is the best for last.

Zodiark hammers without a claim on a townie. Nearly everyone (note, except UT. perhaps b/c LMP was already on board?) was on Zodiarks case pretty hard, starting at end of D1 and carrying over to D2. LMP joins the party, citing TDC's criticism of Zodiarks vote... ALSO he adds 'and after a quick ISO of edmund'. Why is that relevant? Because edmund had expressed suspicoun of Zodiark on D1, and edmund was killed during the night.

OK. Then, UT continues to make a few more 'wishy washy' posts at UT, and makes some banter with me, but NEVER addresses

any

of the responses Zodiark gave, nor presses him for any additional information.

Incognito enters and says 'i dont find LMP that towny, but i do like his UT hate'... immediately LMP drops Zodiark (never to return for questions/responses) and takes up the UT case. Even incognito continued to interrogate Zodiark... LMP just pushed UT and responded to her accusations.

I hope i dont have to explain how scummy all of this D2 activity is. Several people pick up on it, and zodiark sums it up pretty good here and here.

Here, ill do it anyway: LMP votes for someone that hammered a townie without a claim, and who was under suspicion of the person that died at night. She never responds to any of his explanations, presses him for any information, nor makes any comment about the issue. She then leaves that vote, to push for someone whose entire previous case she pushed was that he was 'wishy washy'.

/perry mason

Your entire story of D2 is crap. It's all scummy retelling of the story to paint it the way you want. Also, why does my ISOing edmund and seeing that Zodiark was one of his suspects make me scum? Isn't it natural when someone is NK'ed to look back at what they said to try and find a reason why they were NK'ed? Usually they are NK'ed for one of three reasons 1) They dropped PR tells 2) They expressed suspicion of the scum. 3) They are confirmed (or obv) town. Naturally I went back and looked at edmund's ISO.

Also, I love how you paint my moving away from UT to Zodiark at the start of D2 scummy, yet then when I go back to UT and in your words "never to return for questions/responses" that makes me scummy. So if I stay on UT, (according to some in the thread) I'm scummy, if I go to Zodiark I'm scummy, if I go back to UT, I'm scummy. The whole thing is simply absurd and flat out wrong. Town can (and should) have more than 1 suspcion and can focus on more than one idea at a time. I was actively pushing the UT case, why if I felt UT was scum would I focus my attention on Zodiark?

TDC you saw how all of this happened at the time, does his description actually fit your read/recollection of the events of D2? Because I say it didn't go down like that AT ALL, and he is simply retconning D2 to fit his story.

--

Okay, so this is D2:

At the end of D1

*sigh*

horrible freakin start

Generic "Oh Noes" comment, that I assume in parallel to the almost equivalent comment a day later podium will say implies suspicion.
Looks like more of a throwaway comment to me, but he directly follows it up with another post asking Zod why he changed his mind on me (in hindsight this is probably why I never really bought the UT comment, as it wasn't accompanied by anything like that).

Come start of D2, I ask basically the same thing, get an answer, don't buy it.
LMP votes him for that exchange.
UT babbles inconclusively about me and LMP calls it. Nobody else reacts to it.
Podium makes the "Zod seems to be the big target today" post which seems somewhat disjointed considering he had already asked Zod himself about his reversal on me, had presumably read Zod's answer to me asking the same. He proceeds to ask again. Taz sums that up right there and then:

podium, did you forget to vote Zodiark?

Podium asks Zod why he doesn't answer (which is of course technically true because he only answered my questions and not his, but then they were pretty much the same questions, so they were already "answered" as far as he was going to answer, right?)
Podium votes Zod for "not responding and to move the game along". Now as I just said, Zod had responded to the accusations just not specifically to podium's posts, so why not vote him for the not-so-convincing-answers or the deed itself?
UT defends Zod and wobbles around calling Taz or me scum. LMP calls him again, but kind of leaves a door open that it might just be a playstyle thing and does UT have a recent scum game?
UT posts the link. (As far as I can tell, nothing ever happens with it. Did you read that game LMP? Why did you ask for a scum game anyway, wouldn't it make more sense to look at a town game to see whether he is that wishy-washy as town as well?)
Incognito is suspicious of UT and Zod, votes UT.
LMP immediately jumps ship.
UT makes the big post against Incognito's case. UT says Incognito is buddying up to "fairly pro-town" LMP. As alluded to previously that's a rather odd thing to say about two townies having almost identical cases on you, isn't it?
Zod and Taz both think LMP is tunneling on UT.
UT seems to agree (that is he doesn't portray himself to be suspicious of LMP, just Incognito).
podium still wants to hang me for Dr. P, is fine with his Zod vote, gut vibe on LMP for "not pursuing UT until Incognito support" (not really true, but then one could imagine him doing more, see the game UT posted that never resulted in any sort of response), "doesn't like" Taz' input.
Incognito switches to Zod, UT hammers after being prodded to do something by Incognito.

I'd like to point out, that I don't think UT's reaction to Incognito is "a rather odd thing to say". I think when I pursued him on D1, he responded pretty agressively, and only when no one else joined me, did he finally relax about it. He even sort of appeased me, by producing more content when I was saying he was pretty much not contributing. So, I think if UT's response to me D1 made it look like he thought I was town. So when he was getting Incognito AND me D2, he felt like it was easier to attack Incog than it was to attack me.

As for the scum game link, I asked for it because I wanted to see if he behaved that way as scum. I think you're right, I should have gotten a town link too, but I didn't. I remember reading through the game, but not really finding anything one way or the other. At the time, I was actually sort of mellowing on my UT suspicion, I remember one of his posts in response to me D1 made me think he might actually be town, then when I let the pressure up on him, he started going back to the wishy-washy cruise control play again on D2.

[LimMePls]

I don't think I said it made "no logical sense".

No... you didn't specifically say 'no logical sense', if you are talking about semantics. LMP reached a conclusion based on a D1 situation. I asked you if that D1 situation should have yielded that specific conclusion. You said no.

You're not listening. I was pretty sure TDC said what I claimed he did. You just insist on twisting things to fit your narrative.

What I did (try to) say is that it is orders of magnitude weaker than the fact that podium and I didn't hammer UT, so I didn't really understand what the point of the argument was, since it was attempting to prove something that was already proven.

The point of the 'argument' was that the conclusion he reached didn't make sense. Things that dont make sense are scum tells. I specifically explained this to you the first time you asked the question.

BUT IT DOES MAKE SENSE. You calling for TDC to be hammered to save the town from making any further claims makes you either the best scum player I've seen yet (which we know from your later play isn't true) or not in a scum team with TDC. Your insistence that my logic was flawed is laughable.

Podium, why do you suppose would he bother trying to justify why we're not scum together with let's say, not-watertight reasoning, when it's already been proven pretty conclusively anyway?

To give the appearance that he was scumhunting.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Okay, so this is D2:

*summary*

Your D2 summary wasn't really necessary. What would have been useful is if you had said if my description of LMP's D2 activity was accurate... since that is what was in question.

More useful would have been for you to give your comments on it, and/or ask questions...

I have to agree here.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

You missed the point. I know why you ISO'd edmund. This highlights how, even though you were aware and suspicious of things like this, you never questioned Zordiak... and dropped him like a hot potato as soon as incognito said what he did.

Well, I can't find anything there either. Then again, the only thing you say about Zod after your vote is that you're still okay lynching him. The only actual interaction with him is from Incognito and me (both of us not on the wagon at the time).

I don't know who you are talking to, and what (if anything) you are agreeing/disagreeing with. Please clarify.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I was expecting some comment about the case i laid out against LMP from you.

And again, i ask that you give a summary of your thoughts/cases on each of us at this point.

Feeling nervous podium?

[LimMePls]

I think when I pursued him on D1, he responded pretty agressively

Where?

Still waiting for an answer to my question from UT.

ABR is at L-1 now, correct? I'm willing to hammer after the claim.

I answered your question in post 111.

Are you gonna make a judgment about something else then perhaps? This post was incredibly wishy-washy. You wanna take a stand on anything? Post 60 was a big ball of saying nothing in as many words as possible. Vote: untrod tripod

Does that post explain why you think I'm scum? Because I made what you considered a wishy-washy post at the beginning of the game? I've taken a stand since then (because I saw something I thought was scummy) and you're still on my case about...umm...what are you on my case about, exactly? Saying at the beginning of the game that I don't want to make a call on someone's alignment that early is...scummy? Maybe no one else is agreeing with you on this because it's nonsensical and is starting to look like tunneling.

Well I don't think TDC is scum, so I'm not going to lynch him. I think Untrod Tripod is scum, but apparently no one else agrees or even feels the need to comment, and he seems reluctant to answer my questions, so I'm announcing my willingness to hammer ABR. You honestly think I should hammer someone I don't think is scum just because of the VT claim? I'm not doing that.

I don't understand this post. I answered your question, what more do you want from me? Why do you think I'm scum?

So what you're saying is: I don't think TDC is scum. I think UT is scum but no one agrees with me. Therefore I am willing to hammer ABR. Does that mean that ABR is your second biggest scum suspect after me? I mean, after all, I made a wishy washy post that you didn't like and he tried to hammer the replacement before he got a chance to post anything. That makes sense, right?

[LimMePls]

Well I don't want to open that can of worms again, but it is not just a gut feeling. I project what I would do if I had been UT's buddy, and it looks pretty much like what you did. That is I think your play makes sense from that perspective.
At the same time, UT's iso itself points more towards LMP than towards you in that you just seem to be one of several players he doesn't say much about while he seems to go out of his way not to get into a big fight with LMP, but readily enters it with Incognito.

As for discounting UT, what exactly is left of LMP's play then? Pretty much just today. And yes, I'm hardly content with how he leaned back for quite a while when you and I discussed to "QFT" my posts and yes, he has been stretching the facts somewhat. I want you to understand that you are not a saint in this regard either when you give things the "TDC approved"-seal when I made a much weaker statement about them. It is probably a somewhat natural thing to do (remember when you said me asking about your interpretations about some of UT's posts didn't make any sense because everybody would just post the answer that would fit their case best rather than what they genuinely thought? How's this different?) I would give you that you have been somewhat less guilty on that front.

Anyway, you may remember that LMP iso'd UT yesterday and came to the conclusion that "I seriously don't know how anyone could read his ISO and conclude he isn't scum. Based on my read, the two most likely buddies are Taz and TDC. Taz will be getting my next ISO."
Would you mind doing the same and see whether you can find anything that supports the LMP-bus thesis that I haven't so far? Rereading lynched scum is always a good idea, and I wonder a bit why you didn't bother doing that so far (both when you were still undecided between him and me, and to convince me of the bus).

I disagree that my play is "leaned back". I've been engaged on everything we've been discussing today.

[LimMePls]

I already answered. that. I was ISOing everyone, I already had a solid town read on you, but I was ISOing everyone.

And, 5 days went by because podium and I had back and forthed about all we could without your input. What exactly did you want from us?

Like it or not, you're the one that's gonna have to make this decision, and I think "NUH UH, YOU ARE" between me and podium for pages isn't doing us any good. And that is pretty much what our conversation has devolved to.

Calling that "leaned back" is not correct, so I'm not gonna sit back when you say that.

[LimMePls]

I already answered. that. I was ISOing everyone, I already had a solid town read on you, but I was ISOing everyone.

You had literally just said that your UT-iso meant Taz and I were his most likely partners.

And, 5 days went by because podium and I had back and forthed about all we could without your input. What exactly did you want from us?

Uh no, this was much earlier than that. podium and I produced about a page of postings within that period.

Most likely partners doesn't mean I have a scum read on you. If you don't understand the logic of that, I'm not sure how to explain it.

Yes, based on UT ISO I thought that Taz and you had the most interesting interactions with UT. Based solely on your play, I felt like you were town. The two statements are not contradictory. I don't know how to explain it better.

BY ASSOCIATION FROM HIS POSTS you and Taz were his most likely partners.

I do not think I was coasting, and I still think you are incorrectly describing my play. Dunno what else to say. At the start of the day it was pretty obvious where I stood, I don't know what you really wanted. I've been fully engaged on every issue today.

[LimMePls]

Contradiction, multiple misrepresentations/lies, illogical reasoning, D2 treatment of Zodiark, etc.

**SNIP**

A biased personal opinion is different than completely misrepresenting someones play to benefit your argument.

I couldn't agree more.

[LimMePls]

1) Calling it proof doesn't make it proof.

2) I've provided back up for everything I've said. Whenever possible I've quoted the relevant sections.

[LimMePls]

@TDC: Look, obviously one of us is telling the truth and the other is twisting facts. Of course podium is going to say that its me. But that doesn't make it true. I stand strongly by my play this game. The only person who makes any sense as UT's buddy is podium. Earlier you said that based on my play and podium's play that podium looks more like UT's buddy, but that you think that based on UT's play I look more like UT's buddy. If you do feel that way, couldn't UT's play towards me have been intentional? A sort of "if I get caught, maybe I can take a townie down with me"? Doesn't the total distancing from UT and podium count as much as the buddying from UT to me?

@podium: I can back and forth with you for weeks, and at the end of the day you're going to claim that you've proved I'm twisting words and I'm going to claim the same about you. So keep posting saying it, it doesn't make it so.

[LimMePls]

Most likely partners doesn't mean I have a scum read on you. If you don't understand the logic of that, I'm not sure how to explain it.

Is there anything you can point me to that remotely hints at you having a "solid town read" on me before you iso'd me?

Doesn't the total distancing from UT and podium count as much as the buddying from UT to me?

What "total distancing"? You've said yourself that UT's iso doesn't really point towards podium and podium hasn't said much about UT.

Isn't that complete distancing? I don't know how much more distance you can put between yourself and someone than to have 0 interactions with them. And all of podium's interactions with UT are the same.

I don't recall ever using the words "solid town read", but I think my play in regards to your slot from D1 to D3 speaks pretty clearly that I have a town read of you. I never saw anything scummy from your slot. I don't give out town reads in mini games, I think it benefits scum more than town. It's like saying "Hey scum, you should kill this guy, he looks pretty town".

I'll have to deconstruct podium's complete misrepresentations and plain bullshit above later, I don't have the time for it now.

[LimMePls]

podium:

Would you mind doing the same and see whether you can find anything that supports the LMP-bus thesis that I haven't so far?

Re-reading D1 and half of D2, and paying close attention to LMP vs. UT, i'm struck by how fake LMP's push on UT looks.

First, we have UT agreeing (with me) that anyone that took blaze's RVS vote as serious was foolish (referring to LMP/nexus)... he also later says that "i agree that we will find scum on the blaze wagon"... knowing that his partner was on it.

But this is the UT post where LMP started his push: Link. UT states that it's really early in the game, that our argument is based off a small RVS post... and that he didn't want to make a call about either of us. He also states that he feels scum is on blaze.

LMP responds with this:

Are you gonna make a judgment about something else then perhaps? This post was incredibly wishy-washy. You wanna take a stand on anything? Post 60 was a big ball of saying nothing in as many words as possible.

Which really looks like an over-reaction to me. I feel LMP's level of UT suspicion stemming from UT's post to be un-naturally high. ...i mean heck, look at what HE said in the SAME post he condemned UT of being wishy washy:

As for my "suspicions" I don't have much new to add. I was suspicious of Blaze because I thought he was admitting to OMGUS, but then he came back and explained that he was randoming. The interaction between Dr. P and podium is interesting, I'm still watching it to see how it shakes out. Right now I'm leaning town on Zodiark.

LMP,

himself

, referred to the Podium/Dr. P discussion as "interesting" ... which is just as ambiguous as UT saying 'i dont want to make a call right now'. Then he continues with a 'wishy washy' attitude stating "i was susp. of blaze, but then he explained why he did it".

So,

A. If LMP was really that susp. of UT's 'wishy washy' language, why would he make comments that were so similar to those that UT did?

B. LMP's reaction seems to be much more than a post like UT's warranted at this point in the game.

ALSO, why would LMP refer to UT's post as "using a lot of words to say nothing" (which wasn't accurate... he did make

some

substantive statments), and completely ignore this post from Blaze... which actually WAS a lot of words that didnt say anything? At this point in the game Blaze's input was far more "not taking a stance on anything" than UT's was.

Doesn't make sense.

*continuing to read

A) I don't know how anyone can accuse my play of being wishy-washy. I can stomach a lot of things, but calling me a hypocrite on this is complete crap.

B) I saw scummy play from another play, so I reacted to it. What consitutes an "overreaction"? How was I supposed to react? Look through my meta, PLEASE. The number 1 scum tell I catch people with is play just like what UT was doing here. Look at my catching of Coach Travis in Ghostbusters (in my wiki) for an example of this.

[LimMePls]

Isn't that complete distancing? I don't know how much more distance you can put between yourself and someone than to have 0 interactions with them. And all of podium's interactions with UT are the same.

While our interactions were brief, i wouldn't say there were 0 interactions. We each mentioned each other several times... and UT didn't distance himself from me.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I don't recall ever using the words "solid town read"

I already answered. that. I was ISOing everyone, I already had a

solid town read

on you, but I was ISOing everyone.

Lol! As i said... the more you talk, the more your true alignment comes out.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Also, you continue to ignore this:

You have provided NO examples of those things that i asked you to show proof of. None. You have been shooting your mouth off these past few days saying whatever you need to, to try and convince TDC that i have acted scummy... regardless of if there is any truth to it. When i ask you to provide examples, you can't.

...

I used the term solid town read NOW, I'm saying I don't remember saying it earlier in the game (which is what he was asking for).

Don't let the facts get in your way.

[LimMePls]

^^Give me specific things you want me to show proof of, and I will. Trying to send me through the convoluted back and forth of today to answer your question is near impossible. Show me statements you claim I haven't backed up and I'll be happy to back them up.

[LimMePls]

As the day goes on, UT gives some substantial input here, and later votes ABR for scum, listing several reasons, here.

A short time after, LMP says this:

I think Untrod Tripod is scum, but apparently no one else agrees or even feels the need to comment, and he seems reluctant to answer my questions, so I'm announcing my willingness to hammer ABR.

??

After all that has taken place in the game, she still considers UT her top scumpick? Based on what? Apparently that one 'wishy washy' post UT made at the beginning of the game... even though he had provided substantial input, and taken a hard stance against ABR, since then.

Again... it doesn't make sense.

UT brings up how her behavior doesnt seem to make sense here... but LMP never responds to it.

*continuing

Yup, UT was still my top scum pick. You know why? He was scum. And this is perfect example of how you did absolutely anything you could to avoid commenting on the UT situation. Everyone simply ignored me. As for his "substantial input" it was only in response to my prodding him on the issue, which isn't exactly townish. Trying to appease an attacker is scummy. Also, ABR was an easy target to take a stance on, and as I suspected, as soon as he could go back to wishy-washy play (D2) he did.

STOP CALLING ME HER! You've even said yourself you know I'm a he. I don't know why you keep doing it, but knock it off.

[LimMePls]

D2 starts, and UT makes this post. In it, he discusses Dr.P/TDC and states that he doesnt think Zodiarks hammer was scummy.

LMP responds with this:

It's really rough when you have a decent player replace into a slot that was acting like total scum.

On the one hand

, I want to give TDC a chance, because he's not acting anything like Dr Pepper,

but on the other hand

Dr Pepper was acting like scum and I know I should care about the slot more than the player. The best thing to do imo is analyze the surroundings of the Dr Pepper wagon and the ABR lynch.

The bolding is mine. UT is whishy-washy fence sitting again. What a shock.

Look at what he is calling wishy washy... UT's description of a player that is essentially Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde due to the replacement aspect. Isn't that the normal observation to make about that? "Dr Pepper was scummy, but TDC is acting town" -- that's essentially stating a

fact

. Yet LMP tries to pin 'wishy washy fence sitting' on UT, off of that valid observation.

That

is a prime example of LMP twisting things around to make someone look scummy.

Also, LMP ignores the fact that UT also stated he felt Zodiarks hammer wasn't necessarily scummy... which is a pretty bold statement to make, considering nearly everyone else felt the opposite at the time.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

UT makes this post, and LMP responds with:

Wow, I'm just going to have to get used to hating your posting style I guess. More wishy-washy words like "I

think

Taz jumps to the top of my scumlist" and "Taz is twitching my scumdar and I'm still iffy on TDC...". Do you ever commit to anything? And do you have a link to a recent scum game for me?

"Do you ever commit to anything"? Really? In the post LMP was referring to, UT had JUST said:

I really don't get what's so scummy about Zodiark. I didn't find his vote all that suspect and I don't think he's scum.

Does it make sense for LMP to continue to accuse UT of never committing to anything, after UT had JUST stated that he didn't think Zodiark was scum? And after the other stances he had taken?

I dont think so.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I'm going to stop here, because i think this evidence shows that LMP's push on UT was pretty damn fake. If you want me to do the rest of the game, let me know.

HE ONLY TOOK A STAND WHEN PRESSURED TO DO SO. He never took a stand on an issue of importance until it was required. Also, it's really easy for scum to say "I don't think SO AND SO is scum" they know who the scum is. Its much harder for them to take a stance on who IS scum. And those are the instances where he was wishy-washy. His "stance" on ABR was the only solid one he took, and that was only after I pressured him hard about his wishy washy play.

I seriously can't believe I'm having to argue about this.

[LimMePls]

@TDC: Look at today's play. Who is strikes you as more desperate? Please, look at this logically, it's really quite simple.

[LimMePls]

A) I don't know how anyone can accuse my play of being wishy-washy. I can stomach a lot of things, but calling me a hypocrite on this is complete crap.

I didn't accuse your entire 'play' of being wishy-washy, but that post certainly is. The proof is in it. That makes your accusal of UT being wishy washy, in the same post, look really fake.

Your language in that post was just as 'wishy-washy' as what you attacked UT over... the only 'stance' you took, was to give a town read on zodiark... but in your own words:

Also, it's really easy for scum to say "I don't think SO AND SO is scum" they know who the scum is. Its much harder for them to take a stance on who IS scum.

So... yeah... that was 'wishy-washy'... based on YOUR own criteria.

Except I took stances on who was scum, UT! This is so absurd.

@TDC: Podium has gotten exactly what he wanted with his constant nitpicking every word I've said. I contradicted myself. Well, I stand by what I said, I usually don't give out town reads D1. I guess I did this game once. Look through my meta, you'll see I wasn't lying when I said that. Also, I'm not being paranoid cautious, BECAUSE I'M NOT SCUM. Seriously, I don't understand how podium's play all game plus his play today can read as anything BUT scum.

Where have i twisted things to fit the scenarios i am creating?

What part of my D2 description wasn't accurate.

Where did i say you haven't done any scumhunting?

Where did i label everyone scum?

These questions are all getting answered in depth. I don't have time now, I have lecture and then a midterm. But it will happen today. They didn't get answered before because they are pretty much rhetorical crap, but they'll get answered with quotes for backup today.

@TDC: podium is throwing as much spaghetti at the wall as possible, just hoping something will stick. Seriously, look at the sheer volume of posts and their size today.

[LimMePls]

1.

Where have i twisted things to fit the scenarios i am creating?

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2553696 - Is full of multiple twistings or distortions to fit your facts. This as an example:

Nearly everyone (note, except UT. perhaps b/c LMP was already on board?)

The comment in parentheses is attempting to distort the fact outside of it, to call me scum.

2.

What part of my D2 description wasn't accurate.

Day 2

Then we have day 2... which is the best for last.

Zodiark hammers without a claim on a townie. Nearly everyone (note, except UT.

perhaps b/c LMP was already on board

?) was on Zodiarks case pretty hard, starting at end of D1 and carrying over to D2. LMP joins the party, citing TDC's criticism of Zodiarks vote... ALSO he adds 'and after a quick ISO of edmund'. Why is that relevant? Because edmund had expressed suspicoun of Zodiark on D1, and edmund was killed during the night.

OK. Then, UT continues to make a few more 'wishy washy' posts at UT, and makes some banter with me, but NEVER addresses

any

of the responses Zodiark gave, nor presses him for any additional information.

LMP-EDITOR'S NOTE:Before Incognito enters, and while I'm pushing at Zodiark, I continued to dig at UT for his return to wishy-washy play, but you conveniently omit this part.

Incognito enters and says 'i dont find LMP that towny, but i do like his UT hate'... immediately LMP drops Zodiark (never to return for questions/responses) and takes up the UT case. Even incognito continued to interrogate Zodiark... LMP just pushed UT and responded to her accusations.

I hope i dont have to explain how scummy all of this D2 activity is. Several people pick up on it, and zodiark sums it up pretty good here and here.

Here, ill do it anyway: LMP votes for someone that hammered a townie without a claim, and who was under suspicion of the person that died at night. She never responds to any of his explanations, presses him for any information, nor makes any comment about the issue. She then leaves that vote, to push for someone whose entire previous case she pushed was that he was 'wishy washy'.

/perry mason

The parts in bold are the inaccurate descriptions of D2. I'd also like to add, once again because I've said this enough times, that NATURALLY I WENT BACK TO UT, I WANTED HIM DEAD BECAUSE HIS PLAY WAS SCUM. I pursued Zodiark because that was a good direction that needed to be explored and no one would listen to me about Zodiark, but finally when I had some help with UT (because NO ONE ELSE WOULD HELP ME) I went back to my number 1 case. I'd also like to add that without my pressure on UT and his feeling like it was Zodiark or him, we probably wouldn't have even gotten the hammer-without-a-claim that finally sealed the deal on him. I stand proudly by my play D2. I was on the right wagon, and even if I didn't get him lynched, I help make him make the mistake that proved he was scum.

You still haven't explained why that is scummy. I wanted UT dead, and I had all game, but no one would listen to me. Finally someone listened to me, and I thought we might get the wagon going, so I went back. Naturally I didn't continue hounding Zodiark, I WANTED TO LYNCH UT. WHAT WAS SCUMMY ABOUT THIS!?!?

3.

Where did i say you haven't done any scumhunting?

4) LOL! Let me get this straight, you get to play a scum game that is all about blending into the background, flinging mud at people when the opportunity strikes, but relatively laying low, and then when you successfully slip by for 2 days, and I finally start looking at you, this makes ME scum!? ROFL!

Again with your theory... ok, lets talk about that for a minute. What you are calling 'sitting back, flinging mud at everyone', i call scumhunting. In analyzing the thread, i may point out something that looks suspicious or that i dont understand... but that's SCUMHUNTING. Did i point out a lot of stuff in this game on a good bit of people? Yeah. Why? Because this game was filled with bad/scummy town... people ragequitting for no reason, people hammering without claims, being difficult, etc. Just because i might have pointed out

one

questionable action somebody made, it doesn't mean that i am calling them scummy.

Besides... i would rather see someone suspicious of everyone, rather than only of a few.... scum are the only people that know the truth, and the only people that have a reason not to suspect anyone. This ties into my statement about you vs. me. You never mentioned me all game, and now you can't stop talking about how obv-maf i have been all game. Why didn't you mention any of it before?

Because as scum, you weren't interested in analyzing my gameplay throughout the game to determine my alignment... you already knew.

Podium, why do you suppose would he bother trying to justify why we're not scum together with let's say, not-watertight reasoning, when it's already been proven pretty conclusively anyway?

To give the appearance that he was scumhunting.

Both of those are implying that I'm not scum hunting. The one with the bold in particular, accuses me of not analyzing because I already know alignments, and thus I'm not scum hunting.

4.

Where did i label everyone scum?

First off, when I said this I was speaking with hyperbole. Obviously you haven't labeled "everyone" scum, for instance edmund was dead too early. However, you pretty much at one point or another accused everyone in some way. Here are links to you pointing at someone as scummy for each not-you slot in the game:

TDC/Dr.Pepper:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2476800
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2477352
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p2477803
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2480274
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2480349
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2486882
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2516916
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2516916

LynchMePls:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p2485107
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2489979
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2516916
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2516916
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2518509

Albert B. Rampage:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2489979

edmund.angles: None. Died to soon.

Zodiark13:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2504125
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2510304
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p2514391
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2516916

Incognito/ConfidAnon/Nexus:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p2485107

Untrod Tripod:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2489979

Tazaro:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2500559
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2516916

This is all before D3!

That's suspicion from you at every slot in the game minus yourself and the N1 NK. The point of all of this is that this sort of behavior is very scummy. The only serious attack you led on anyone was Dr.P, which was an easy target that you even backed off of once a competent player held the slot. From then on, you basically just lob suspicions at anyone when the opportunity arises, and go with the flow, until a UT wagon is building steam, at which point you push a mislynch wagon on Zodiark (while Chainsaw defending UT by taking small shots at me). Then, on D3 when UT scum is OBVIOUS, you don't get onboard with UT-scum until POE/massclaim/pressure-from-town forces you to. Most telling of all is once you come to the conclusion that UT is going to be lynched, very shortly after is the "LMP is scum" post. This is scummy thinking. You knew that UT was getting lynched, and you knew you'd be left in lylo, so you needed to finally take a stand on who was going to be scum the next day. And this is where your play all game paid off, because you got to choose from any of the remaining players, and not have to contradict yourself, because you'd lobbed suspicion at all of them, or made the general statement "I don't have a town read on anyone". As noted earlier in the thread you could have simply substituted TDC instead of me in that post, and no one could have contradicted you, because you'd spent pretty much the whole game throwing suspicions around at multiple people, and had left yourself in a great position to pick your target.

Here is the essence of my point (

@TDC

If this is tl;dr, at least please read this part):

Personally i still find Dr. P's rage quit scummy, and that's probably always going to be associated with that slot for the rest of the game.

Still think zordiak's behavior was scummy, and lynch worthy, at the moment.

LMP... been getting a slightly scummy scum vibe here... mostly gut. dont like how he says he thought UT was scum, but didn't pursue/vote him today until incognito started making a case.

Haven't been a fan of Taz's input so far.

That's about all i got... can't really get into this game, and haven't seen much that has jumped out and grabbed me.

This post is on D2, when the players in the game are podium, me, TDC, Taz, Incog (this slot hadn't posted anything yet D2 I believe), Zodiark, UT. Of the 6 that aren't podium, 4 of them get some form of suspicion/tarring lobbed at them in this one post. That is really scummy.

@podium: If you really thought I was playing scummy all game long, why did you not push a case on me until you had no other choice? Sure, you made small comments here and there about what you thought was scummy, but you never seriously pushed a case on me. Why?

@TDC: Please don't forget this stuff. I know podium has posted a lot more than me this game day, but volume doesn't equal substance or truth. Look back at the play please, and then look at the way podium is twisting it today to fit his narrative, and ask yourself if it really makes sense. Look at how his play pretty much from D1 to the present has almost all scum motivations. It's all coasting to stay alive, and tossing out enough suspicions to look like participating, without painting himself into a corner, as well as chainsaw defending UT + ramping up a mislynch wagon when UT is finally coming under pressure, even down to the forcing a massclaim (which IMO we didn't need) before finally grudgingly joining the UT lynch. Think about this: If I'd been listened to at the start of D3 and we didn't massclaim and lynched UT instead, would Taz be dead? What would one more night with the tracker have gotten us? Almost certainly a win.

[LimMePls]

I'd also like to address this:

You never mentioned me all game, and now you can't stop talking about how obv-maf i have been all game. Why didn't you mention any of it before?

Oh sorry, I'd already found scum and was trying to get it lynch. So sorry I'd only caught 1 of the scum.

[LimMePls]

Except I took stances on who was scum, UT!

So? UT took stances on who he thought was scum, and you kept accusing him of being wishy washy. Why cant the same be done to you? You used as much 'wishy washy' language as he did.

Also, I'm not being paranoid cautious, BECAUSE I'M NOT SCUM.

???

Why would you

not

be paranoid cautious as town? Is this a (nother) scumslip?

@TDC: podium is throwing as much spaghetti at the wall as possible, just hoping something will stick. Seriously, look at the sheer volume of posts and their size today.

Why do you keep making these AtE posts? It's really scummy. Your posts have been just as lengthy as mine in places. Besides, the only reason i did a detailed breakdown of your UT case was because TDC insisted i did so.

I disagree that I used "as much" wishy-washy language as him. I'm in the unique position of not reading through my own posts though, so if I did make some wishy-washy posts, and someone had called me on it, I dunno what I would say. I do know that I saw behavior that was scummy and I pursued it.

Town don't walk around on eggshells paranoid that they'll do something scummy. Also, even though I did make a contradiction, why is it scummy? Town can't contradict themselves? That's my point. Scum strike me as the sort that would go back and read their ISO to make sure they aren't contradicting themselves. I'm simply stating the truth, and I guess this is one of the few mini games where I gave a town read early in the game.

That is not AtE. I'm asking him to look specifically at the volume and size of your posts, and see if there is something to be gleaned from it. How is that AtE? I'm not saying "Poor me", I'm saying "podium is making tons of wall posts throwing out any accusation he can think of, doesn't that suggest something?". Calling it AtE doesn't make it so.

[LimMePls]

LMP, please answer this... if you can. I think it pretty much proves that your UT case was fake.

Why did you attack UT for 'using a lot of words to say nothing' in that post, yet completely ignore this post from Blaze? At least UT said

something

relavant... Blaze didn't say

anything

. Blaze hadn't given

any

meaningful input at that point... why didn't you treat him the same as you did UT?

I realise everyone made jokey posts to vote just so we get things going....I should have gave a reason like that....but, I was not seroius at all about it afterall one guy can't do a lynch so I would have unvoted for him soon enough(when I come back online)

I was surprised by the reaction...but again my fault for not making up some random reason to show it was not serious.


Oh yea, I don't like DR pepper.....

the drink I mean....

1) This is obv VI.
2) He isn't actually saying nothing, he is trying (my guess is not a native english speaker) to explain that his vote was RVS.
3) He isn't exactly wishy washy, he is saying he doesn't like Dr. Pepper.

Given more time, and more examples, I may have in fact disliked his play. But I don't have that chance, he replaced out.

Contrast that with multiple instances of UT being wishy-washy (I've bolded them, these are just a few examples) PLUS his intentionally changing his behavior when pushed on it (appeasing town), followed by his return to it once he realized there really wasn't much pressure there at all:

I just want to point something out. Dr P and podium are having an argument that, essentially, boils down to how they interpret this:

VOTE:Dr Pepper

which, I'd like to remind you guys was
- the 3rd post in the game
- in response to a random vote.

so, I guess what I'm trying to say is
- chill
- out
- dude

I'm

not going to make judgement on either podium or dr p's alignment

, although I agree with what people have said in that we will

probably

find scum on the blaze wagon.

@Untrod Tripod: Your vote for Nexus was random, please place a real vote. And also happy scumday

no

unvote Nexus

the only person I'm getting

scummy twinges

from is Dr Pepper,

and I don't want him to get lynched just yet

.

Our votes are the only thing that will get the scum on edge- use them.

I disagree. I think if you go through this game with the idea that you have to have your vote on someone at all times, your vote isn't worth as much. I don't think voting puts any pressure on people whatsoever unless they know that your vote carries actual weight. That's why RVS is not all that scary. If you get two or three votes on you during RVS, it's meaningless. People don't actually think you're scum, so you don't think that a vote = a desire to actually lynch that player. If you just use your vote to "apply pressure", then that player knows that when push comes to shove, you probably won't let them be lynched until they get a reason to think they're scum. Therefore, I don't use my vote on people who I'm not willing to lynch. I'm not willing to hammer Dr Pepper, and

I'm not entirely convinced

he's not just an overreacting townie. That being said, there are some things he said in his last post that

really bug me

.

OK, you guys don't like my posting style. Here is a wall of text:

Not everyone dislikes your posting style in and of itself. In fact, I personally think that using bullet points is a great tool. However, you need to understand this: forum mafia is not just a logic game. You need to understand that at its heart, the objective is to convince people to do what you want. You cannot win over a crowd with bullet points. Considering that (especially at this stage of the game) mafia is largely based on things you can't prove, you need to think about convincing people rather than just stating your opinions. Have you ever tried to have a discussion with someone who doesn't argue, but instead just states their opinions and states that they think you're wrong? That person comes off as being inflexible, arrogant and incapable of open-minded thinking. I'm not saying that you're coming off as all of those things right now, but realize that it really helps your case when you actually talk to people, rather than just say "these are the things I think. This is why you're wrong". I don't think the issue is so much your points as how you're expressing them.

podium123456 has lied about statements I made. He has since recanted claiming it is not that serious ROFLcopter LOLerskates. And he complains that I am pushing to hard on Blaze's since it is day one. Well go read it again, I spent most of my time defending from podium's bullshit instead of pressuring Blaze. I was using a weak tell because it was so early in day one. Instead of letting a wagon get going, podium does his best to break it up, FAST.

Yes. You are pushing too hard on Blaze. You swapped out your RV for a real vote for a really terrible reason. When people called you on it, you kept pushing. Podium was trying to break up the wagon (this is of course assuming he and Blaze aren't scumbuddies...which is just as likely as any two players in this game being scumbuddies imo)

And for those who cry about bullet points, I was trying to be brief. Walls of text hurt the town, so does quoting whole posts to respond to one point. podium has been creating some pretty large white noise. You guys must be able to see what's going on. Go back and read it again. The RVS ended when podium voted me.

see above. Walls of text do NOT hurt the town. Stating your opinions and trying to convince people to follow you is how the game progresses. Coldly stating your opinions and refusing to try arguing for your opinions hurts the town. As I said, I think people are responding negatively to how you're playing, not just what you're saying. Being brief isn't a problem. Being snide is a problem. We see "what's going on", the question really is if YOU do.

Blaze needs to get his non-contributing ass in here. The only reason I can see podium defending Blaze so hard is trying to protect his scum-buddy. Seriously, it is very enlightening.

Agree on the first point, disagree strongly on the second. What is podium is town and he thinks lynching Blaze will a. make us down a pro-town player b. not get us any possible reads on other players.

BTW @ Mod: Please replace me. I will accept the ban/blacklist.

...why? Just people people are voting for you? Seriously, instead of running away from criticism, why don't you try to get people to agree with you? Convince them you're not scum. It would be INCREDIBLY UNFAIR for whoever replaces into your slot.

Still waiting for an answer to my question from UT.

ABR is at L-1 now, correct? I'm willing to hammer after the claim.

I answered your question in post 111.

Are you gonna make a judgment about something else then perhaps? This post was incredibly wishy-washy. You wanna take a stand on anything? Post 60 was a big ball of saying nothing in as many words as possible. Vote: untrod tripod

Does that post explain why you think I'm scum?

Because I made what you considered a wishy-washy post at the beginning of the game? I've taken a stand since then

(because I saw something I thought was scummy) and you're still on my case about...umm...what are you on my case about, exactly? Saying at the beginning of the game that I don't want to make a call on someone's alignment that early is...scummy? Maybe no one else is agreeing with you on this because it's nonsensical and is starting to look like tunneling.

Well I don't think TDC is scum, so I'm not going to lynch him. I think Untrod Tripod is scum, but apparently no one else agrees or even feels the need to comment, and he seems reluctant to answer my questions, so I'm announcing my willingness to hammer ABR. You honestly think I should hammer someone I don't think is scum just because of the VT claim? I'm not doing that.

I don't understand this post. I answered your question, what more do you want from me? Why do you think I'm scum?

So what you're saying is: I don't think TDC is scum. I think UT is scum but no one agrees with me. Therefore I am willing to hammer ABR. Does that mean that ABR is your second biggest scum suspect after me? I mean, after all, I made a wishy washy post that you didn't like and he tried to hammer the replacement before he got a chance to post anything. That makes sense, right?

This post shows his conciousness to take a stand because I prodded him about not taking stands. That is scummy. If it were truly his style to be more disengaged, then he wouldn't have felt pressure to do so just because someone asked him to, and he certainly wouldn't be going "See, I did take a stand cause you told me to".

Zodiark, trying our hands at identifying, on day two, the killer based on edmund's death is basically a Wifom dead end.

QFT

It's really rough when you have a decent player replace into a slot that was acting like total scum.

On the one hand, I want to give TDC a chance, because he's not acting anything like Dr Pepper, but on the other hand Dr Pepper was acting like scum and I know I should care about the slot more than the player.

The best thing to do imo is

analyze the surroundings of the Dr Pepper wagon and the ABR lynch.

But still,

IGMEOY TDC

I'm

not so much thinking

that Zodiark hammering before the claim was such a scummy thing. What would you guys have said if he'd said "oh, uh, I claim cop"? I think revealing ABR's role would have either required a PR to counterclaim (since there seems to be no vig we couldn't have found him dead last night if he'd claimed a killing PR that someone else had and we kept him alive, or the cop/doc would have had to come out which would have been a bad plan on day 1). We had some discussion before the hammer about the relative intelligence of requiring a claim and I kind of fall on the side of not wanting a second claim on day 1.

I'll have to

think/observe/reread

more to decide where my vote needs to go.

In that first bold, we've got "it could be this or that" language, which is the definition of wishy-washy/fence-sitting whatever you want to call it. The point is that you get to make a lot of talk about something, without taking a position. IIOA if you will. The second bold is another example of wishy-washy language. He doesn't come out and say "I don't think Zodiark is scum" it's "I'm

not so much

thinking" which is weasel wording that allows a person to backtrack if they need to. And finally, after the whole post, the end result is "I have to think more". This is the definition of a post that tries to say alot without saying anything meaningful.

Yah, there's a certain timing element to Zodiak's vote, and from this I see Zodiark's game play as suspect.

Vote: Zodiark

I really don't get what's so scummy about Zodiark. I didn't find his vote all that suspect and I don't think he's scum.

I would, however, say that there's "a certain timing element" to Taz's vote on ABR. He jumps in and puts a quick vote on ABR and now is calling Zodiark obviscum. If Zodiark gets lynched and flips town, I think Taz jumps to the top of my scumlist.

Insofar as there really hasn't been all that much said, I don't really have much else to say. Taz is

twitching my scumdar

and I'm still

iffy

on TDC because of his slot.

As I pointed out at the time, this is more weasel wording. What does "twitching" your scumdar mean? Its again language that is contrived to say something (Taz is being scummy) without actually saying it (just twitching) so that your position can be backed out of if necessary. Same with "iffy" on TDC.

This is another example of you twisting events to fit your narrative. You just looked back to find one post that might be similar to UT's wishy-washy attitude, and then try to assert that because I didn't point that one out too, my case must be fake. But the truth of the situation is far different from that. Blaze only made one post like that, it wasn't anywhere near as bad as some of them from UT, UT did do other things (appeasement) to make matters worse, and BLAZE WASN'T EVEN AROUND ANYMORE.

[LimMePls]

Also, as soon as I reply to something you want, you just bring up something else. This is what I'm talking about with the throwing spaghetti at the wall. You just keep making wall post after wall post throwing out as many accusations as you can, hoping I can't answer something. You're the one trying to justify your position by questioning the events of the game, rather than allowing them to speak for themselves, because you're the one who's play speaks UT buddy. I don't have to sit here and throw accusation after accusation at you "why did you do this, why didn't you do that, why did you say this, why did you say that", I can simply point to the events of the game. It's pretty clear who's town here.

[LimMePls]

Here is the essence of my point (

@TDC

If this is tl;dr, at least please read this part):

This post is on D2, when the players in the game are podium, me, TDC, Taz, Incog (this slot hadn't posted anything yet D2 I believe), Zodiark, UT. Of the 6 that aren't podium, 4 of them get some form of suspicion/tarring lobbed at them in this one post. That is really scummy.

Really scummy, eh? With 2 scum left you think me calling 2 people scummy, and 1 slightly scummy, is excessive? Even if you want to classify my comment about Taz as me implying i thought he was scummy (which is a stretch)... big whoop. There were 2 scum left, and unlike you, i had no idea who they were.

Yes, having that many scum reads and NO town reads is scummy. Period.

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@podium: If you really thought I was playing scummy all game long, why did you not push a case on me until you had no other choice? Sure, you made small comments here and there about what you thought was scummy, but you never seriously pushed a case on me. Why?

Because i was pursuing scummier cases. I

did

express that i considered you scummy several times, however.

I think the more interesting question is the one i asked you earlier, that you didn't answer: You never mentioned me all game, and now you can't stop talking about how obv-maf i have been. Why didn't you mention

anything

about me, before endgame?

Wait a sec, so you're supposed to get credit for "pursuing scummier cases", but then you call me out for not mentioning you before endgame? So this works for you and not me? I was pursuing scummier people (UT, ABR, Zodiark), so the person who was lying low on the outside letting everyone else do the work while pointing suspicion at other people wasn't at the top of my list.

I don't even grant that you were "pursuing scummier cases". The only case you took any initiative on was Dr. P, which can easily be put down as someone using an awkward posting style leading to lots of misunderstandings and then a ragequit. Every other case was built by other people. You wouldn't get on board UT scum until the massclaim forced you to and you got on the Zodiark wagon late also.

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@TDC: Please don't forget this stuff. I know podium has posted a lot more than me

*snip* garbage *snip*

this game day, but volume doesn't equal substance or truth. Look back at the play please,

You're wasting so much time/space with this stuff. Will you stop with the begging of TDC, and repeating stuff you have said many times before? Maybe you're nervous. Maybe you're aware that the actual MEAT in the case against me is pretty thin, so you feel you have to trump it up with a bunch of pleading and biased retelling of your theories. Whatever... it's scummy and a waste of everyones time.

You calling it scummy doesn't make it so. I'm simply telling him that the truth is in the record, he needs to not forget it just because you want to make D4 into "revisionist history" day. I'm saying that he needs to take everything you're saying with a grain of salt, and instead go back and look at the record on his own. I'm not afraid of what he'll find there. I think you are.

[LimMePls]

Also, even though I did make a contradiction, why is it scummy?

Are you really asking what's scummy about a contradiction? *facepalm*

But i will break it down for you, since you asked:

You stated that in mini games, you feel giving town reads is a bad thing because it tips scum off as to who looks town.

But at the start of the game, you gave a town read.

You see, your reason about not giving town reads is a very common one... i happen to feel the same way. That's a pretty big issue, and not something you just 'forget'... unless you have 'forgotten' that you are supposed to act like a townie.

Both of our arguments against each other involve a lot of dissecting and are open to interpretations... but this is a pretty clear cut example of a scumslip. Your only defense could be "oh i forgot i felt that way, and that's why i gave a town read"... which is preposterous.

This is really simple. Town can contradict themselves too. People contradict themselves in every day life all the time, and not because they are doing something wrong.

[LimMePls]

Really scummy, eh? With 2 scum left you think me calling 2 people scummy, and 1 slightly scummy, is excessive? Even if you want to classify my comment about Taz as me implying i thought he was scummy (which is a stretch)... big whoop. There were 2 scum left, and unlike you, i had no idea who they were.

Yes, having that many scum reads and NO town reads is scummy. Period.

A. You just said that not giving town reads is a town action. Herp.

B. I had

1

more scum read than you did at that point...

C. Lol.

*facepalm*

A) I think listing town reads early in mini games is generally bad for town. I think saying "I have no town reads" in 5-man mylo is scummy.

B) And no town reads.

C) Lol.

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Wait a sec, so you're supposed to get credit for "pursuing scummier cases", but then you call me out for not mentioning you before endgame? So this works for you and not me?

You're analogy doesn't work... i didnt push a case on you, but i

did

mention your scumminess. You didn't mention

anything

about me, even though you are now claiming i was acting really scummy all game.

You intentionally left out the fact that i mentioned your scumminess, to make it look like i am being a hypocrite.

Twisting facts.

Ya, because I wasn't focused on making sure I'd called everyone in the game scummy. I was more focused on lynching the people I thought were scum. I love how I'm supposed to get negative credit in retrospect because I didn't notice you being scummy earlier in the game, when your whole style was lay low and poke scum accusations at people, and I had a much bigger fish to fry.

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I don't even grant that you were "pursuing scummier cases". The only case you took any initiative on was Dr. P, which can easily be put down as someone using an awkward posting style leading to lots of misunderstandings and then a ragequit. Every other case was built by other people. You wouldn't get on board UT scum until the massclaim forced you to and you got on the Zodiark wagon late also.

When i write opinions like this, you call it 'twisting facts' or 'revising history'. But when you do it, i guess it's a narrative?

The same can pretty much be done for you, you know. Here:

The only case you took any initiative on was UT, which can easily be put down as someone making a normal null observation about an argument... you even gave the same observation that UT did about that argument. Every other case was built by other people. You only voted ABR because you saw town was voting for him, and figured you had better do so as well. You did the same thing with Zodiark.

Now go ahead and tell me why i am being disingenuous, and you aren't.

Because you know that's not true, but you have to push that version of events or you'll get caught. It's not hard.

[LimMePls]

In addition, would you mind elaborating what you hoped to achieve with this:

Whose reaction where you looking for? What kind of reaction would've meant what?

I would expect scum going into 3 way lylo to hit back pretty hard if someone accused them of being scum... attack my play, argue with me about why i thought you were scum, etc. You shrugged it off, with barely a mention. That furthered my suspicion that LMP was probably scum.

Of course you say that now, what else would you say?

@TDC: What is the point of even asking this question? The truth is that he was testing the waters for which way to go (you or me) in 3-way lylo, but of course he isn't going to admit to that.

[LimMePls]

It is a small tell, since I said "I don't normally do X" and it turns out that on D1 many weeks before I had done X. I simply did something I don't normally do. It doesn't change the fact that I don't normally do it.

This whole game is starting to aggravate the piss out of me. TDC needs to make a choice. This back and forth with podium "You're a liar, no you" is getting old.

[LimMePls]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You don't actually want to discuss this game on the merits of the play up until now, you want to hound me over and over and over until I say one small thing you can use, and then call it "/game". Well guess what, it aint game, not even close. Even if I contradicted myself under your nonstop ridiculousness, it doesn't change the fact that you're UT's buddy and the record of the game shows it.

@TDC: THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. YOU HAVE TO MAKE A DECISION. THIS IS NOT HELPING US WIN.

[LimMePls]

Nope.

[LimMePls]

I am so glad this game is over.

Thanks mod for the game! My only complaints are: ABR hammer should have happened, and 3 week 3 man lylo is WAY too long (I didn't even realize what podium just pointed out about how it shouldn't have been that long by the rules).

I made a tactical error in killing Taz instead of TDC. Taz was just so erratic I didn't think I could count on him to vote podium with me. I thought TDC would be easier to sway. If I'd have known it would take TDC 2+ weeks to make a decision I would have killed him and taken my chances with Taz.

GG guys, it was fun.