Open 260 - Tit For Tat - Game Over

[Gonzoooo]

/confirm

[Gonzoooo]

Rules are meant to be broken.

VOTE: don_johnson

[Gonzoooo]

Are you guys losing it? Why are you not voting for don johnson? Obv scum is obv....vote accordingly.

Vote Count

Consigliere (1) - mallowgeno
Xenophon (1) - saporovirus
mallowgeno (1) - lewarcher82
lewarcher82 (1) - Zhero
don_johnson (1) - Gonzoooo
Gonzoooo (1) - implosion
implosion (1) - werewolf555
werewolf555 (1) - don_johnson
smashbro_of_the_SSS (1) - Powerrox93

Not Voting (3) - Consigliere, Xenophon, smashbro_of_the_SSS

With 12 alive it is 7 to lynch. The deadline is set for the end of November 21st, PST.

[Gonzoooo]

@implosion - so I take it you don't feel that lewarcher's smilies were excessive?

[Gonzoooo]

^This lady is the most pro-town only behind me.

[Gonzoooo]

Wait, so it's ok for dj to make a non-random vote to get out of the RVS, but mallow should not come and support that vote to further get us out of the RVS? How is that scummy? Seems to me like a wagon with only one person on it isn't much of a wagon. Explain.

I had to google Hunter S. Thompson...Does this make me a dumbass?

It depends how old you are and how sheltered of a life you lead, but possibly.

re:vote counts - it's still early, but we should just leave the vote count making to the mod unless he becomes extremely delinquent in his duties. Nobody is in danger of getting lynched at the moment, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

[Gonzoooo]

So what if he just said "I agree with dj"? I don't expect a dissertation on the excessive use of smilies in RVS. Seems like a perfectly fine vote to me for what it was. Do you have a problem with mallow's vote?

[Gonzoooo]

Consig is town...he just apparently ate a trunk full of psilocybin before this game began. For realz, if you're voting him over voting someone not in this game, then you're ridiculous. Particularly disappointed in you saporovirus.

I should take this as a joke, then? Or are you seriously saying don is scummy already?

Dead serious. Why aren't you voting him?

Also, why did you say this? You were referring to saporovirus making a second rvs vote to make a joke. How does that equal pro-town

Hard hitting questions indeed. However, I can declare whoever I want town. Dead serious about this too.

Unvote, Vote: Zhero

You're really terrible at faking townie motivation. Just saying. Yo, donny boy, come over to this wagon and all shall be forgiven.

[Gonzoooo]

@ Gonzooo: why's Don scummy?

Cause he needs to prove his innocence to me by hunting scum. (Hint: I wasn't being serious when I said I had a "dead serious" scum read on him after one page. You guys need to lighten up.)

Why didn't you talk about Consig? What do you think of me declaring him town and admonishing your terribad vote on him?

More Zhero votes.

[Gonzoooo]

Why didn't you talk about Consig? What do you think of me declaring him town and admonishing your terribad vote on him?

You're saying HE'S JUST A KID!!! LET HIM GO!!! I'm saying I'll unvote him when I see some scumhunting from him, kinda like your vote on don . If he's town, he'll calm down and start contributing. I haven't seen signs of that yet.

So yah, you didn't shame me into getting off his wagon, if that was your intent.

No, I'm saying he's the homeless guy with no shoes on outside the local Wendy's who talks only to himself. Simply put I'm not sure you could pick an easier, lamer target to admonish and then vote and frankly a sucker like that is a magnet for scum votes. Really, I had such high hopes for you and you're just disappointing me.

[Gonzoooo]

???
This is quite a strange defense. He ate a trunk full of psilocybin???????
This is the dumbest thing that I have ever heard, seems like a scum buddy is trying to stick up for another.

If it seems that way, then wouldn't it make sense for you to be trying to lynch the scum buddy first instead of looking for links between players? Do you find me more scummy than consig? What's your opinion of Zhero btw?

If you think he's town, why? How are you so sure of yourself ("Consig is town" instead of "I think Consig is town")? I still think he's scum for what I've stated.

I'm fairly certain he's town by the way the scum are trying to make him into a punching bag. I agree that consig needs to post some content, but what separates him from several other players in this game that have done very little other than sheep popular votes? Nothing as far as I can see except he looks like a possible mislynch. That's how I'm certain he's town. Possible VI, but still town.

is this really your first game?

Is this relevant? No, it's not my first game.

more votes on Consig, please

See, it's this kind of poor play that loses games for town all the time. I ask you the same question as I asked implosion, what separates Consig from several other players that are not actively scumhunting in this game? What about Powerrox? He just posted essentially saying 'eh, I'm not even really trying to do anything'. How is Consig scummier than him? Because he was confused about someone not in the game? He gave a very plausible reply as to why he did it. No harm, no foul.

What about Zhero? Notice how he stopped posting once I called him out. What about smashbro and xenophon? Where's don johnson at? You guys really need to learn to actually look for scum behavior instead of stupid behavior.

--preview edit--

Unvote, Vote:werewolf555

Jesus, this is the most obvious scum that ever scummed. He follows lewarcher's terrible reasoning for voting Consig after he made a terrible jab at me for being his buddy. I'll give you guys a pro-tip: a wagon on scum this early in the game will never see this much agreement for it. CONSIG IS NOT SCUM. Votes like werewolf's are blood in the water type votes and show scum desperation to end the day as quickly as possible. Town people need to be moving their votes to him immediately.

[Gonzoooo]

1) A BW to L-2 on Day 1 is not poor play. In fact it is a standard procedure to investigate the reactions of the players (not just the voted one).
2) chill the f**k out. I am sick of players who react as if we were about to lynch someone on lylo, which we aren't.
3) That a BW on scum this early would not see this much agreement is false. In fact, it is extremely rare that the first BW of day one ends with an actual lynch.
4) I never used the argument of Consigliere voting a non-existing player to support my vote. If you want to criticise, please read the posts.
5) That this is not your first game is not "relevant", but it does not help because concealing previous games prevents us to know your meta. And since everybody reacts as if we just washed our faces with hot chili pepper sauce, I will already excplicitely state that this is not at all scummy, it just limits my skills at reading you.

1) I agree to a degree. I think you should be trying to form good bandwagons and not terribad ones in hopes of catching the scum at the tail end of it. Conversely, I've been pointing out who I think is scummy on the Consig wagon.
2) Ah no, if I think you're acting scummy, you're getting the full attack. I play to win and every lynch counts.
3)Your'e not making sense. My point is that scum are not going to immediately bus their buddies this early in the game and I appear to be the lone voice of reason in the wilderness of stupidity that is the Consig wagon. This is not town driven. That's what I'm saying.
4)I was not only speaking to you as you're not the only one on the Consig wagon.
5) That's fine. I don't think meta would be relevant anyhow.

What's the difference?

You're actually scum.

The thing that separates Consigliere from other lurkers to me is that he has said a lot - but none of it has actually contained scumhunting or even opinions.

I agree he needs to contribute content. My point though is that there are several players around his level of non-contributing or are sheeping others' opinions to appear they are contributing. So what sets Consig apart from these people that makes him scummy and not them. That's all I want to be definitively answered.

He's also made lengthly comments that are overtly irrelevant - his "sugar hangover" comment, the Hunter S. Thompson comment.

This is hyperbole. "lengthy comments" probably can't be translated into one liners about HST. He is active lurking, but my problem is that people are trying to trump it up cause he's an easy target that probably isn't going to fight back. I don't like defending other players, but in this case you guys are grasping so badly at whatever and Consig is apparently too lazy to point out these issues that I had to intervene.

Are you saying that you are 100% sure that Consig is town? If so, how? You say it's because nothing separates him from others... well first of all, there are things. And second of all, even if so, so what? How would that make him definite town?

My "bumbling town" read on him, as I would call it, has been explained pretty thoroughly actually. The fact that his wagon exploded so quickly and so early in the game over weak arguments makes it unlikely to be on scum. Am I 100% certain? Of course not. But I am confident enough in that read to try and stop a bad wagon from being followed through. My goal is to lynch scum, not VIs. I'm starting to see that this player list has trouble distinguishing between the two. This is unfortunate because it's going to take you guys days to wake up and lynch a scum if this is the best you can play.

I don't see how you seem to be 100% sure about everything

I play with confidence. It's much more effective than being feeble of mind and spirit. If your point is that scum play more confidently than town, then we disagree on theoretical level. Scum are much more timid and don't want to stand out. They sheep and chase lynches rather than pushing their ideas forward. (exceptions to every rule, of course, but etc.)

mallow: I'm surprised he isn't in Gonzoooo's list of people that are comparable to Consig.

oversight on my part. He can definitely go on there as well. It's kind of sad that I have to put most of the player list on there.

saporo: has also been active in the discussion. Has also done nothing scummy that I see. Also probtown.

I was thinking town too, but now I'm starting to get skeptical. I felt like saporo was more in your face in the RVS stage and I liked that. Now she's being kind of wimpy and not pushing much for lynches. My town read keeps plummeting on her.

People who post no content, as I'm sure D_J will agree with

why are you appealing to DJ here?

i may move to the gonzo wagon.

Why so timid? It's not like I'm in any danger of being lynched at this point.

[Gonzoooo]

"timid" is a poor choice for a descriptor. i clearly stated "why" i wasn't voting. wanting to reread a thread so as to offer content with my vote is good form. would you prefer i vote with no explanation as to the nature of my vote?

I would prefer you did something instead of making promises to do something, yes. I don't really care about long and drawn out catching up posts. You obviously saw something that made you think I was scummy, so why not vote and say "I think XXX by Gonzooo is scummy because YYYY". One simple sentence or two is sufficient. voting is the town's weapon, so let's see it in action. Later if you read and change your mind, you can even vote again. I think timid fits just fine.

[Gonzoooo]

People who post no content, as I'm sure D_J will agree with

why are you appealing to DJ here?

DJ was in a game where we had a town roleblocker who was such an idiot that he got himself lynched on the first day. This happened because he was an idiot who posted no content.

Wait, in another game you lynched a PRO-TOWN PR who posted no content and somehow that's a good reason to vote based on that exact same logic here? That exact case disproves your argument and reveals your vote to be nothing more than a craven attempt to lynch a weak player: not for alignment, but for convenience.

[Gonzoooo]

3) I said my opinion, you said yours. If I were scum, I would join the first BW regardless from the alignment of the voted player, and then I would cautiously get off.

I think the weakness of everything lew said in his wall post earlier is self-evident but I want to bring this quote to attention from it. Because in this game, lew jumps on the first BW (Consigliere) and then neat as can be gets off the wagon to vote for me later.

Exactly

what he said he would do as scum.

Gonzoooo's constant sureness could be just a personality trait, but still... how are you so apparently sure about literally everything? Is it just in your personality?

There is absolutely no benefit to using weasel words like, "I think " or "probably". Tell me, who are you more likely to listen to? The guy who says, "Zhero is scum" or the guy who says, "Zhero is probably, maybe scum". And tell me who you think of those two is more likely to be scum leaving themselves backdoors to distance themselves from their opinions. I believe what I say and thus am not afraid to state my opinion definitively.

[Gonzoooo]

I almost convinced myself to switch back to mallow, but there is no support of it right now, and Consig also seems scummy. However, if anyone decides to vote for mallow, I'll support you.

so which do you find more scummy?

gonzo 37 seems to imply that he agrees with dj's early serious vote, but honestly does not contain enough info to be 100% on that.

I did indeed agree with it. It was a fine vote and a legit point.

Because it feels like everything in this game has its origins from the smilegate thing that I don't understand at all.

lol, no. I think this guy is town though. He's too damn clueless to be faking scum at this point. That or his team is in desperate trouble.

Your logic is very weak, almost outrageously weak, and I am surprised that no one else notices it.

Yes, I'm sure it's that my logic is so weak and you are a super genius that no one else sees how ragingly scummy I am. Or or or, you're wrong and everyone else sees that. Deep thoughts indeed.

I have pointed out that you deny the relevance of several aspects of consig's behaviour, and you don't even bother explaining why.

Because I know the difference between VIs and scum. You fall in the former category and need to play more mafia before you can tell the difference.

I have pointed out how you lied about not referring to me when you mentioned the fact that some people based their consig-vote on his voting a non-existing player.

I didn't say I didn't mention you, as far as I recall. I believe I said I didn't mention ONLY you. There is a difference.

I have pointed out your contraddiction: you accused people of being scummy because they did not push for lynches (saporo) and at the same time you suspect every single player who joined the only bw that was created so far.

This does not make sense. 1) I can't push every single lynch cause I only have one vote. 2) I don't suspect every single player on the Consig wagon. I haven't said I suspected you at all have I? Your point is that I'm playing aggressively. Guess what, that's not a scumtell.

These are the reasons why I am voting you.
Please, defend.

Your reasons are terrible and were just stomped upon. Best to find a newly terrible case to push so people can ignore you even more!

[Gonzoooo]

I have pointed out your contraddiction: you accused people of being scummy because they did not push for lynches (saporo) and at the same time you suspect every single player who joined the only bw that was created so far.

This does not make sense. 1) I can't push every single lynch cause I only have one vote. 2) I don't suspect every single player on the Consig wagon. I haven't said I suspected you at all have I? Your point is that I'm playing aggressively. Guess what, that's not a scumtell.

Still, if u regard as poor performers both voters and non-voters, it is hard to understand your definition of sucm-hunt. Is it perhaps "doing exactly what Gonzooo wants"? I always look for contraddictions. You are always aggressive, I always point out contraddictions. I will tolerate your style, you better tolerate mine.

Really this is such a bad argument. Yes, both

bad

voters and non-voters are playing either poorly or scummily; you know how to avoid doing that? By actually using some critical thinking skills and not just sheeping the largest, lamest wagon. There's no contradiction there because you're creating a false dilemma between the choices of bad bandwagon and no bandwagon when there's always an option of a good wagon instead. So your style of "pointing out contradictions" isn't reality; instead it's "create false dilemmas and intentionally/mistakenly paint pro-town players as scum" and I see no reason to tolerate that style.

Vote Count

Consigliere (2) - implosion, werewolf555
werewolf555 (2) - saporovirus, Gonzoooo
Zhero (1) - don_johnson
Gonzoooo (1) - lewarcher82
mallowgeno (1) - smashbro_of_the_SSS

Not Voting (5) - Consigliere, Xenophon, Powerrox93, mallowgeno, Zhero

With 12 alive it is 7 to lynch. The deadline is set for the end of November 21st, PST.

[Gonzoooo]

Mod, my vote is on werewolf I believe.

I'm not so sold on lew as scum Admiral. He's definitely not a solid town read or anything, but I do think there are better lynches than him today. Werewolf isn't high in my books obviously. Neither is Zhero and mallow is getting there. I'd prefer their lynches to lew today.

[Gonzoooo]

unvote, vote: Zhero

But mallo chose the feeblest of reasons to vote for werewolf, which could mean he's not actually reading this game too carefully.

What's feeble about it? Early claiming is indeed scummy.

I think Zhero's nonsensical voting stinks completely. Why you wouldn't push the person you think is scum and has the bigger wagon is beyond me...unless you're trying hard to stay off the wagon. That's scummy regardless of werewolf's alignment.

[Gonzoooo]

EBWOP: trying hard to stay off the wagon while still pushing it with vocal support

[Gonzoooo]

Gonzooo is right. Mallow's vote is legitimate. Early claim is scummy.

But why did you unvote werewolf, Gonzooo? Does Zhero's post make werewolf less likely to be scum?

Because it's a scummy vote by Zhero regardless of werewolf's alignment. When I see an action that absolutely has no town motivation whatsoever, it's very very likely to be coming from scum.

Think of it this way:

1) werewolf-town is being wagoned - Zhero votes mallow for being a "bussing" partner because he wants to keep calling werewolf scum, but he's trying to stay off of the mislynch to avoid wagon analysis tomorrow.

2) werewolf-scum - Zhero votes mallow for being a "bussing" partner because he doesn't want to join his buddy werewolf's wagon, but still needs to pay lip-service to it in case he actually is lynched today. Then tomorrow he can say 'oh yeah, I found werewolf scummy!' even though he wasn't on the lynch wagon.

Now, ask yourself why Zhero-town would vote for a lesser wagon even though he apparently thinks werewolf is scum? Does not compute.

[Gonzoooo]

also, for the record, I'm keeping my vote on werewolf atm but I plan on voting Zhero in a day or two. I want everyone to have time to talk about the wagon before putting him at L-1.

With only three (I believe) days until deadline, time isn't exactly a luxury we have.

[Gonzoooo]

I agree with lew, we shouldn't be discussing it. werewolf is today's lynch.

Unvote, Vote:werewolf555

[Gonzoooo]

That's a lynch I believe. See you in the morning (hopefully).

[Gonzoooo]

@mallow - you've said very little this game. I want your next post to be an extensive list of reads and your thoughts on the lynch/kill last night and who you would most like to see lynched immediately.

[Gonzoooo]

Let's stop talking about who or who may not be the vig for now.

Implosion, I'd also like some analysis from you after mallow gets his ass in here.

[Gonzoooo]

I'm not really waiting; I've just been busy. I think I am going to reread all of day one today or tomorrow to get some fresh perspective. I still want the lazy asses to get in here and post first, however. There's your deadline mallow and Smashbro. God help you if I reread the whole game and post before you do.

[Gonzoooo]

Many apologies. Holidays + work snowed me under for too long. I'm really glad to see volkan here and providing a lot of content. I need to do some reading today and will try my best to get something up.

[Gonzoooo]

Ok, going back to recover some ground from yesterday.

I really don't like sappo's vote on Zhero yesterday, but I really can't tell if she's being genuine with her "I didn't know this game had mechanics" schtick. I mean, really? You forgot you were playing an open game or you forgot the specific mechanics of this game?

I also don't like implosion all that much. There is just something about him that seems so much in the background and I can't put my finger on it exactly. I had niggling worries about him yesterday, but then he said something townish that I don't recall and I decided I was just overreacting. Then he had his non comment at the end of the day and it kind of just read like a post for postings sake when the lynch was going to go through anyhow. Idk. I just needed to say something about it. Maybe later I can actually find out if its worth following or not.

I don't care for lew calling out chesskid at the start of the day. That seems pretty dumb and possibly an easy attack on low hanging fruit. I don't see the point of it (which implosion says! There he goes acting town again).

Also: I would like to assume that we all know no1 must claim. I tend to assume mafia-players are rational human beings (even though the behaviour of the role cop on day 1 kinda shakes my assumption). What I was writing about chess simply depends on the fact that I have seen scum players who pretended to have been V/LA all night... anyway, I was only half serious, so let us stop discussing this.

Why should we stop talking about you baiting chess around his role? He already claimed, so the damage is done. It might be worthwhile for you to explain in more detail why you did it. Was it on MS that you saw a scum pretend to have not been around during the night phase?

I want rather everyone to tell me what they think of Thad, since he is the only new-entry who actually posted some real content so far.

I'm wary of our sea faring friend actually. His posts read townish enough, but he's also experienced enough to fake it when it counts. I'm not inclined to push for his lynch atm, but I also won't be blindly following him.

I'm also suspicious of Purple Orange for a very passive response to the werewolf wagon. I'm not entirely sure if it's passive support or passive dislike, but I think it's the former. In post 214, Purple both dismisses what he sees as reasoning for most of the werewolf wagon, and says that he still thinks werewolf is scum. It looks to me like he didn't want to be on the wagon, yet he wanted to make it look like he thought werewolf was scum. Or, he wanted no connection or even a strong disconnection to the wagon, but still had to uphold his previous position that werewolf was scum.

This is a note for myself to look back at this when I have some time.
-edit-
I like PurpleOrange's reply actually.

I fail to see mallow's scumminess.

So you don't see anything scummy about mallow this game?

Don Jon is the person that, aside from sapo, I believe had the most questionable activity when it came to the Zhero wagon. But a) this is largely influenced by the fact that I suspect mallow to be scum. And b) because of Zhero's scummy vote, any vote on Zhero CAN be seen as completely justified.

I actually dig this alot. Keeping my eye on a dj-mallow connection.

i suggest a voting block of dj, thad, lew, and gonzo.

Count me out for now. I don't have strong enough town reads at the moment to be pro voting bloc.

This smashbro wagon isn't really tickling my fancy.

That may be true but mainly suspecting only one person for a large portion of the game is a good scum tactic as it allows you to lay lower and make less enemies.

This seems like you're ignoring everything smash said just so you can call him scummy. I don't get why you think he should vote don over mallow if he finds mallow more suspicious. Explain for me cause I'm slow and such.

smash, on the other hand, has been calling players scummy but putting his votes elsewhere.

And this immediate follow up from dj is poo too. In the same post you say he's tunneling on mallow, then you say he's not voting who he finds scummy. I don't get it. Then you pepper it with "he's not posting goodz". Meh, sounds like a lot of hot air to me. I'm not saying I have anything close to a town read on smash, but this is really the best you can find to wagon him over?

And don't get me started on this:

more votes on smash. put him to L-1. get a claim. move on. it shall be done(come on voting block).

First paragraph: Purple essentially condemns the wolf wagon, saying that the majority of reasoning on it is flawed.

Disagree. She is saying she understands what he said, not that the "majority of reasoning" on the wagon is flawed.

Vote: saporovirus

for now. I need to do some more thinking.

implosion, I would like you to reply to Purple Orange's response to your case and then tell me if you still find her scummy.

Personally, PurpleOrange is like the only person I fully trust at the moment. Yo yo, PO, who do you want to lynch today?

[Gonzoooo]

Oh...that is true. This is why you don't go away from games for long periods of time. ffff

Vote: don johnson

[Gonzoooo]

@volkan - how does your point system compensate for non-contribution? I'm rather curious why dj is so low on your list when he seems to be coasting pretty hard throughout this game. I felt like he was scumhunting in the early game, but has since gone into hibernation mode. What are your thoughts on him other than "55"?

Well there you go.

[Gonzoooo]

How does this discussion find scum?

lew - where are you thinking about moving your vote to now that you're off of Smash?

[Gonzoooo]

I wasn't aware that dj had been coasting (I think this is a consequence of reading in catch-up mode - I don't get the real-time experience of "Hey, X hasn't posted in a while?"

Well, I don't mean that so much as, 'hey I'm showing up regularly, but mostly only to bandwagon and argue with lew about whether the vig made the right shot choice last night'. Like I said, I feel like don is in cruise control right now and doesn't want to rock the boat too much, so he's arguing over trivial points with lew instead of trying to find the scum.

@don - who is scum apart from smash?

I can't tell what is going on with smash personally. He does have some odd contradictions between his words and his actions, but there is also a lot of support for that wagon...which I'm not sure would be likely if it was on scum that was one mislynch away from lylo. I also don't like that the more experienced players (volkan, ThAd, dj) all seem to be tunneling the shit out of his lynch. There are three scum in the game, and yet you three don't seem to see much beyond his lynch today. I'm not saying its implausible he's your top suspect, but when you're not looking at much else it starts to worry me that SOMEONE is going down the no-no path if you catch my drift. I don't believe all three of you are town, regardless of smash's alignment.

PO - what are your thoughts on the experience crew all honing in on smash? Do any of them bother you like they bother me? Am I crazy?

[Gonzoooo]

I've played with dj plenty of times, though he is definitely not easy to meta. I don't have a super clear read of him atm, but I also don't feel he's as strongly town as you are proposing. I've had the pleasure of playing dj on a scum team, though that was quite some time ago (Cowboy Bebop Mafia) and multiple times with him as town. I don't believe I've ever played against him as scum though.

One thing I will say about dj is that when he is town I feel he is freewheelin' like Bob Dylan. He doesn't care how he comes across to people and tries to scare scum. This is why I liked his early smiley attack, because that's exactly the kind of crap I'd expect town-dj to push for reactions. Later on, I get the mood of him being pensive and SRS BSNS, and I don't like it as much. When I played that game with him as scum, I also got the feeling that he likes to make inroads toward bussing his partners if necessary. This is why I can see your mallow-dj connection point, PO. I feel like if they were on a scumteam together, dj was laying the groundwork to buss his buddy at the first sign of things going sideways. He's been dancing around mallow all game, but never applying real pressure there. I keep getting the vibe of "well, I would lynch mallow now...but I just need to deal with this other thing first." Today he says he's good with a smash or mallow lynch, but what I really see is a lot of smash-hate, and mallow's name being tacked on as a secondary thought. This is pretty typical scum behavior if you have a lazy buddy that you are 1) trying to prod into activity and 2) setting up a believable bus for later if the town attention shifts in that direction.

That's pretty much my dj suspicion laid bare. It's a lot of meta related stuff, and it's probably not even particularly good meta considering how long ago that game was, but he still bothers me enough that it makes me uncomfortable.

[Gonzoooo]

Well, ftr, I don't find smash's dj case all that convincing, but anyhow...

I totally forgot implosion was in this game. What's up brosef?

[Gonzoooo]

second request for deadline extension in light of long replacement wait.

[Gonzoooo]

I find it pretty ridiculous that you're suggesting he's faking his RL problems so you'll be lynched when he specifically asked for a deadline extension. Also, do you really think you're in danger of a quick lynch?

Vote Count

don_johnson (4) - Gonzoooo, smashbro_of_the_SSS, lewarcher82, implosion
smashbro_of_the_SSS (2) - ThAdmiral, vollkan
implosion (1) - don_johnson

Not Voting (2) - Purple Orange, mallowgeno

With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch. The deadline is set for the end of December 8th, PST.

[Gonzoooo]

You don't see the irony of lew's play? And yes. L-1 with possible lurking scum is 100% in danger of a quicklynch.

Well, my guess would be that if lew had some serious things going on IRL, then strategizing for a game of mafia was pretty low on his list. But anyhow, he unvoted you so I guess you can relax.

@ThAdmiral and volkan - what are your thoughts on the dj wagon?

@smashbro - where are you at? You haven't said anything since the attention shifted away from you? Lurking and crossing your fingers?

[Gonzoooo]

@ThAdmiral - I'd like something a bit more substantial from you about dj than a comment on a single point. Particularly since I assume you've played with him before. DJ is an accomplished player that isn't likely to be caught out by standard scumtells, but I really feel like his play feels off this game. He's a raging bull as town and I would expect him to be much more pissed at me for starting the wagon on him...but he's not. He's trying to rationally talk his way out of the wagon and swing momentum back to smash. Do you feel this type of behavior is more likely to come from DJtown or DJscum? I understand that this is all kind of vague, but it is what it is.

I'm fairly convinced at this point that we have a 1v1 situation in the competing wagons, given the deadlock we seem to be at for the moment. This is ultimately quite good for the town because it is going to be very telling after the lynch. However, we also need to lynch correctly today, so I want everyone to think long and hard about DJ vs. Smash and pick a side. Fortunately, I think the scum have passed the point of no return and will be revealed regardless of which side they choose to fall down on.

In your next post, everyone should give a brief paragraph as to which side they are taking in this argument and why. I personally will be staying with the DJ lynch because his play feels very off to me. He is not getting in on the action, but rather is prodding from the sidelines all game. I wrote some of this off due to the holiday weekend, but that only gives you so much cred. He started the game ferocious and then became a meek little kitten that is trying to be excessively logical when pushed. This isn't all that townish coming from DJ in my opinion. Additionally, I feel the smash is kind of a soft target and someone I would definitely go after as scum. I don't like how DJ tried to form a voting bloc early in the day and power that lynch through, given how unforgiving this setup is of mislynches. I believe it was a power play from him because he overestimated his town standing. A quick mislynch today and the game would have been all but wrapped up for the scum tonight.

--preview edit--

Taking note of lew's points about the smash wagon without hammer. I'm not as sure as you, you really think it wouldn't have looked scummy to hammer someone well before deadline? Also, weren't we waiting on the mallow replacement at that point?

You should also check your town read on ThAdmiral. I am much less certain about him than most people seem to be. I also do not believe everyone from {DJ, ThAdmiral, volkan} is town. I do however believe that Purple Orange and lewarcher are town. This is unfortunate because they are not voting and my much weaker reads are split between the two wagons, giving me uncertainty on both of them.

[Gonzoooo]

Also: you say that you think that the competing situation is going to result in a lynch that will be very telling for town. Does it mean you are absolutely convinced that DJ and Smash could not be scumbuddies who are performing a mutual bus?

Well, it's not impossible that they are scumbuddies. However, I don't think scum have a lot of incentive to bus today considering that reads are so muddled at this point. They couldn't have had a better possible D1 with both of the leading wagons being on town and they were able to sit back doing nothing. Personally, if I was scum I would be looking at one of the soft targets today and working my ass off to get them lynched. You then put the town in a terrible lylo position tomorrow or possibly even win the game overnight if the vig shoots and misses. It would only take one wrong vote in lylo for the scum to pile on quickly. Alternatively, they could hard buss someone today for some town cred and then have to go through two more day phases. That or they open a chance for the vig to take a free shot at them if their bus is transparent. Idk, I can see the merit of trying to win town cred, but I think the chances of winning the game are good enough for the scum right now that they do not need to take that route.

tl;dr

I'm not 100% certain that is not the case, but I don't think it's likely.

[Gonzoooo]

Actually, I don't think you have to vote immediately. I would settle for everyone simply saying who they would prefer to lynch out of smash and dj.

[Gonzoooo]

I'm going to try to keep this as brief as possible so as not to wall the game, but it might get a touch long. Sorry in advance.

gonzo: one of your earlier posts gave me the impression that you were leaning towards me because i was being more "logical" in this game than when we had previously played. can you flesh that out for me? i am doing my best to avoid being lynched today. and

it doesn't make sense to give someone scum points if they are playing more "logical" than in a game when they were scum, no?

I don't understand the bolded, what is the other game you are referring to?

Anyhow, to answer what I think the question is, I am working under the belief that you try to sound much more logical and persuasive as scum than you do as town. I have gone back through your most recent games and I randomly picked the first scum game and first town game I clicked on. The scum game was The Lies of Locke Lamora. You replaced in at some point and kind of lurked because of the holiday, but I think if anyone isos you in that game they will very clearly see thick walls of text and you try to play the reasonable townie by asking furc to hold of lynching and "we should be holding off with votes until jenni claims" etc. I think these are actions that are generally perceived to be protown and that is why you regularly engage in them.

The town game I clicked on was Open 255 in which you were town. This game you have a great deal of one-liners and short posts. You pitch fake stats at Shotty as you buddy him and generally push the scum around. You come across as a brazen leader who is out to ruffle feathers and who gives a shit if people think it's anti-town or scummy.

Now, I'm not saying this game clearly falls on either side of the fence, but if I was picking between these two recent games I would certainly say that your play here is closer to LLL than Open 255. This is what I mean by you playing more "logical". Perhaps a synonym in this case would be "close to your chest".

i mean, as it stands, the two most oppurtunistic votes made today(smash and implo on dj) seem to be drawing very little scrutiny. in the meantime, i am being scrutinized for attempting to create a voting block of players i had town reads on at the time.

This is AtE. Also, I don't think you can consider smash's vote on you all that opportunistic considering I was the only one on the wagon.

Not sure who I'd put after these three.

I don't think that paragraph was very clear, who are the other two besides DJ?

Is there any specific aspect you think I have missed?

I'll come back around. Have you played with dj prior to this game? If you already answered this, I apologize.

In unrelated matters, why are you not pressuring lewarcher at all? He was quite high in your points system yesterday and I see nary a word or two in his direction today. Nor are you trying to get him lynched. What gives?

I've played one game with him before that I can recall, and we were scum in that one. So I wouldn't say I have a good handle on his meta.

That was LLL I believe, right? Please look through a few of his recent town games if you get a chance just for a point of reference.

I do feel like your reasoning is very wishy-washy in regards to dj though.

Well, I never claimed it was a solid case based on more than a strong gut feeling about this, and if you're demanding more from me on this case you aren't going to get it. I'm sure I could go back and read his iso and attribute scum motives to many of his actions, but I feel I've hit the high points of it already without wasting so much breath. He's playing a conservative game here that is designed to get mislynches and not rock the boat.

Do you admit that there could be plenty of reasons why his play might "feel off" to you in this game that may not have anything to do with him being scum?

I can think of the one I believe you're implying here. Not so sure I'm sold on that angle, but I catch your drift.

You are implying here that one of the two is definitely scum but this is not a foregone conclusion. Please respond to this.

I do feel that one of the two of them is scum. If that were not the case, I don't see why scum wouldn't have piled on one or the other and pushed the lynch through by now. What do you feel is the scum motivation for having two viable wagons on town players and not proceeding to lynch one of them?

I had never heard of the concept before but I actually liked it. I think it is a bit dangerous though and should only be implemented when the town reads are a bit stronger, as even one scum in the mix can potentially make it an anti-town force. I hadn't planned on complying with it in this game because I believe it has been hard to get good town reads on people.
If the question was more about how did I feel about dj when he suggested it I have to say it struck me as somewhat of a more-likely-town-play. I thought it was sure to cop some heat, which it did, and that is why I feel it would have been a less likely play for scum.

Town voting blocs have been in fashion lately based on site meta, with SpyreX being one of the origin points I believe. It's really only a matter of time before scum abused it as a "townie" move. I think it's a null tell at best.


Has anyone in this game played with smashbro before?

[Gonzoooo]

For a meta case to have merit, one must assume a certainty of continuity in ones play from one game to the next. There are too many variables involved for it to be logical.

You're saying you do not have continuity between your games?

I actually agree with don that the points lew raises are null. They are too specific to be used as any kind of meta.

why did you make a "probably stupid statement"? please do not shift the blame to me when you clearly posted about the issue first. and exactly what about the "discussion" was scummy(if thats what you are implying)?

"you did it first" is not an acceptable excuse, particularly when you know better. As far as what was scummy, poking at 'who da vig be' is pretty fucking scummy and you both deserve scum points for it. I should have had to come in here and tell you to knock it off.

do you think smash and implosion are town?

I'm not sold on either one by any means. I've stated so several times.

how exactly am i not rocking the boat?

You haven't been pushing original cases or angle for most of the game. I don't see you trying to look at things from multiple angles and genuinely figure stuff out. If you had your way, we would have lynched smash already and that would have been that, for good or ill. I do have an expectation from your play and if I see well short of that expectation, it's going to raise red flags for me.

if this is our last mislynch before lylo, why are you so willing to vote on a case that isn't "solid" and seems to be based mostly on gut by your own admission?

Because I feel it's the strongest case. I think some of the points against smash have been trumped up beyond their value. No offense to him, but he doesn't seem like the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to the mafia playing. I do see scum motivations in some of what he's done, but I also see VI-town play.

hows about you go back through my iso and attribute that "scum motivation"?

I think you know as well as I do that this is easy to do. It's easy to argue semantics with someone and bend their play to fit your preconceived mold. Believe it or not don, I still have an open mind about today's lynch. I am pressuring you to better suss out the situation.

smash's vote was omgus with a weak case behind it. hows about you address his case on me?

So? Doesn't mean it's opportunistic, just that it's a shit case. I already did address it and I said I didn't think it was all that great. Town make bad cases too. If you're town, I understand your perspective of 'he must be scum pushing garbage', but from my perspective of not knowing your alignment, it's not as open and shut as that.

if you want to make a meta case, you need to read through at least 60%(28) of my games before i think you would have anything remotely statistically reliable.

This is a bullshit argument. We're not applying the scientific method here. We're talking about one player's ability to read another player's psychology. Is it foolproof? Hell no. Can it still be a reliable tool? Hell yes. I'm not expecting other players to be sold on it because I'm just speaking from my personal experience with you. In fact, they definitely should not be sold on that. However, that does not mean it should be any less true for me. And apart from that, I do feel you've been playing a safe game, which is more likely to come from scum. Do you deny that?

@smash - Is this:

I don't particularly like the inconsistencies.

Also, he writes off my case as unconvincing, but has not addressed my most recent rebuttal.

DJ failed to comment on Consig early on, waiting until the wagon died down to give his opinion.
He puts a voting block on me but gives no particular reasons, which indicates to me that he's following the hunches of other players, and trying to rally them behind him without giving more support himself.
During RVS, you make a big deal of Lew's smilies, but now say I am scummy for disliking Consig's actions, which lasted outside of RVS.

Your full bullet point case on dj?

@don - please give me your bullet point case on smash.



We have a lot of walls recently and it's time to cut to the heart of the matter from both camps. I will

Unvote

as a sign of good faith to you don and that I actually am listening to what you have to say. Next time I vote, it's not likely to be moving.

Vollkan, I want to hear from you as soon as possible.

[Gonzoooo]

EBWOP:

I should

not

have had to come in here and tell you to knock it off.

[Gonzoooo]

lol, so now you want to play the tough guy after I call you out on being softie this game? Looking forward to your rebuttal.

[Gonzoooo]

I dont' have a lot of time today, but I will try to answer what I can that doesn't take a ton of research.

And comparing more general habits (free-wheelingness vs. caution/logic, or whatever) across two specific games is any better?

In my opinion, yes. Let me start off by saying that meta-cases are not great, but sometimes when you get a bad feeling about a player, that is really all you have to go on. So, I'm not making excuses. When considering meta, I do think it's much better to look at the general shape of a playstyle than it is too look at "tells". Tells are easy to learn and compensate for. The psychology of how you post as different alignments is not. I don't believe those are the only two games where don has posted like that. I just picked the first two random town and scum games I found in his site iso to prove my point had some merit. I do encourage you to look at his town and scum games side by side and draw your own conclusions. If you feel there is not much disparity (freewheeling vs. logical play), then you can take that stance and say so. However, dismissing my point out of hand because I did not (and do not have the time to) read 60% of his games is an easy write off. What I think you and everyone else should do is randomly pick a scum game and a town game from his iso that are different from the ones I chose and see if my original premise holds up or not. I've made my opinion clear, but I'm not going to spend days on end building a meta case because I simply do not have that kind of time. You either do some of the leg work yourself or dismiss my point out of hand and judge his play based soley on this game. My only word of caution is that dj is no chump and isn't likely to be caught on shit tells. Hunting him that way will never catch him as scum, and is why his record is so good. You can bank on that. That's not a reason to suspect him unduly, mind you, but it should be noted.

Ehhhh...a lot of that is really game-specific, though. My most absurdly brazen game to date was as Godfather.

I disagree to some extent. Yes, people have a number of factors that influence their play in a specific game. However, on a whole scum are going to play a safer game because getting wild and lambasting people that are not mutually suspected is likely to draw you at least some heat.

You're assuming he was pulling the voting block together to secure a quicklynch over Smash, and not just to put a suspect to L-1 and pressure him (and POSSIBLY lynch him). DJ's said several times he was only attempting to do the latter.

lol, oh well if dj says it, it must be true!

I went back and found you criticized people for picking on these:
* Smash suspecting one person for majority of game
* Smash calling mallow his top suspect but putting his vote on other people

Are those the points you're referring to, or are there any additional ones?

Those are two that I do recall. I would like dj to give me his bullet point case on smash first, which he avoided.

You also say Smash has "some odd contradictions between his words and his actions" - specifics?

For example, he waffles on the Consig thinking andrew is in the game issue. He said he could be scummy or he could be confused town and he's awaiting reaction to judge. I'm cool with that, but then Consig posts a very reasonable explanation as to why he thought andrew as in the game and Smashbro simply says 'not buying it, Vote:Consig'. That doesn't really seem like someone that is genuinely weighing the evidence of the situation, but is rather looking for an easy issue to condemn someone over.

gonzo: i haven't been "soft" at all. i've been taking on anyone who wants to tangle. so far, i don't believe anyone has brought a solid case against me. PO just pointed out that lew's meta case sounds okay but lacks the proper evidence. and thats been my main point about my attackers. noone is bringing any evidence. now you don't seem to want to bring evidence. in fact, i don't think i'd be out of bounds to say that you are avoiding it. but i'll post more on that later. i'll be delivering a nice pbp to your earlier post.

Bullshit, you have been soft and "tangling" with people only in a reactionary way. You've been a meek little kitten until I got up your ass about it. Like I said, don't try to play tough guy scumhunter with me now just because I attacked you. I find you calling me scummy now that I'm pushing on you a little laughable. If you're town, it's quite shortsighted considering 1) you were all but calling me townish as hell at the start of the day and 2) if I was scum looking for an easy mislynch, surely there are easier targets than you to go after. I've been explaining my stance this entire time, so I don't see how I'm "avoiding" explaining my case on you. I've pointed out areas that I think are meta related and I've given my feelings about your play this game.

That being said, I feel like my back and forth with you is started to reach a bad point of me tunneling. It's turning into tit for tat indeed and maybe I need to reread this entire game this weekend for a better perspective on the situation. Bleh.

also, you seem to be trying to push the town into an either/or direction with both smash and myself.

I've explained very clearly why I feel this is the case. Do you disagree with my logic? If so, why?

at this point, smash is slowly moving off my scumlist and into the inneffective town category.

Elaborate on this along with your original bullet point case on him.

trying to make it a 1 v 1 when we have plenty of time left(no mallow replacement yet) is just poor form. you should know that.

Meh. Again, reason has been stated and I'd like to hear your logical explanation against it. 1v1 is a great situation for town to be in, not so much for the scum because it makes wagon analysis on subsequent days much easier.

you should also realize i'm going to be ripping you a new one for your misrep and avoidance. but whatever. i have things to do. talk later.

Yes, daddy.

How do you figure that the above is AtE? Ignoring the question of whether or not Smash's vote was opportunistic, he's pointing out a valid inconsistency.

inconsistency in what? the entire town? Everyone can read smash's and implo's votes for themselves and adjudge whether it was opportunistic or not for themselves. DJ pointing it out and essentially stating 'not fair that people are criticizing me and not them' is very much appealing to emotion. If and when the town wants to judge smash and implo's votes, they will...and without dj stamping his feet about it. Seems like a weak attempt to redirect attention away from him.

I'll come back around. Have you played with dj prior to this game? If you already answered this, I apologize.

Yes, several times with my main account. Two games I listed already were Cowboy Bebop Mafia and Last Man Standing. There are other games as well, but I would need to go back through my wiki to find them (WWF mafia?). I'm quite certain I've read games he's been in before as well. I don't believe I've played with dj enough to have a infallible meta of him, but enough that I do feel comfortable judging his play.

I wasn't in the game yesterday

lol, seems like you've been here longer.

Anyway, from my initial read, Smash was my #1 and I have already debated at some length the points I had against lew with him.

This is true, fair enough.

Looking forward to mykonian's reads, particularly when he finds out who I really am . Hopefully you play better this time you bastard.

[Gonzoooo]

Don't have time to respond with another wall, atm. Just quickly.

uh no. if we are both town you are setting scum up for the win. if both smash and i are town, it is in scum's best interest to make this a 1 v. 1.

If scum was setting up for a win, I would have just piled on smash like you asked and not dragged you into it at all. Also, I don't get why you are acting like I haven't explained the 1v1 thing thoroughly. ThAd asked me explicitly for this and I gave it to him clearly. To quote:

You are implying here that one of the two is definitely scum but this is not a foregone conclusion. Please respond to this.

I do feel that one of the two of them is scum. If that were not the case, I don't see why scum wouldn't have piled on one or the other and pushed the lynch through by now. What do you feel is the scum motivation for having two viable wagons on town players and not proceeding to lynch one of them?

Please respond to this and tell me if you think I'm just pulling shit out of thin air to push some scum agenda. You're not thinking about motivation at all.

I still think you should provide a BP case on smash. I don't get your excuse of saying I'm not elaborating on my points on you. I think I've been pretty fucking elaborate actually and I've gone out of my way to explain what I'm thinking. You want more stuff from this thread. That's cool and I understand your motivation for asking that as either alignment, however I have not avoided explaining where I am coming from. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you to write 3-5 bullet points explaining what your original case on smash was for the sake of transparency and succinctness.

[Gonzoooo]

Also, please don't confuse me not posting about implosion extensively with 'not looking at him'. I look at everyone as much as possible until I get a strong town read on them or they're dead. Having a war of walls with you doesn't help me in that regard, but oh well. I will dedicate some special time to this game this weekend and directly address your back and forth with him so you can't say I'm putting him on ignore.

[Gonzoooo]

1) I never claimed it was a "fact". I said, 'here is my interpretation of the situation and why I think this is so'. Painting it otherwise is hyperbolic and excessively dismissive. It is hardly a "fallacy" to think this could be the case based on the evidence of the situation. It is most certainly one possibility and worth considering.

2) You can't say I'm trying to secure mislynches and yet I didn't jump for an easy smash wagon if he's town. That's having your cake and eating it too. Presenting the 1v1 possibility was most certainly not the quickest route to victory for a scum-Gonzo

3)

it also can help generate enough pressure to draw out two claims on townies thereby possibly exposing the vig or at least narrowing down the nk pool.

Is ridiculous conjecture. I think you and lew already took care of singling out the vig, anyhow. So, meh.

[Gonzoooo]

Have a little patience, don. I've been busy, but I will fully point out to you and everyone else how you were needlessly furthering the vig discussion and hurting the town.

In the meantime, where the fuck is everyone not named Gonzo or don johnson?

Vote Count

don_johnson (2) - smashbro_of_the_SSS, implosion
smashbro_of_the_SSS (1) - vollkan
implosion (1) - don_johnson

Not Voting (5) - Purple Orange, mykonian, lewarcher82, ThAdmiral, Gonzoooo

With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch. The deadline is set for the end of December 13th, PST.

[Gonzoooo]

Disliking Gonzooo even more.

Disliking yo' face, but you don't hear me bitching.

Anyhow, why PO?

Actually, why any of your reads because they aren't explained at all.

[Gonzoooo]

lew was saying "vig has no brains." dj was saying "vig shot was legit". which of those two statements do you think has more potential to draw out a vigilante?


i'll make it easy:

a) lew's statement
b) dj's statement
c) they are both equally guilty of role fishing
d) rolefishing? just looked like a conversation to me.

i'd like everyone to answer this. a general consensus is needed.

I don't really see why you are making these comparisons. I think they were both scummy. I'm going to go over the entire sequence of events.

lew kicks it off in post 254

implying you did not act at night? LoL

Which is rolefishing in my opinion. Don't like it. You know chesskid is going to respond to this and whatever he says is going to give you insight into his role.

chesskid kind of furthers the discussion by saying the vig is useless now and that's why he claimed, blah blah.

I immediately shut that business down in 261

Let's stop talking about who or who may not be the vig for now.

Then we get dj coming in at 263

Explain 258 a bit more pls. The word "therefore" implies that your conclusion of handing out scumpoints to sk somehow stems from the idea that "big is useless." R u saying u think vig Shud claim?

Why why why? I see no freaking reason to be continuing this discussion because the more you talk about the vig, even in the guise of scumhunting chesskid, the more likely it is that the vig will be narrowed down. Additionally, scum could be looking at this and going 'hmm, maybe dj isn't the vig'.

Then lew follows up:

Before anyone does something stupid: no, vig must not claim. He just must not shoot, for the moment. Vig is not useless. He is just useless in this phase of the game. At game end, on a mylo-situation (and being an open-game, we will know very well when it is mylo), if we mislynch he may save our ass by shooting right.

More talk about what the vig should do and more WIFOM about who could be the vig if lew is town.

chesskid's turn:

Yeah I was not suggesting that the vig claim at all.

No fuck, shut up about it.

implosion gets in on it

QFT. Even if there was never any chance for the vig to shoot again, they would still be useful as a townie with a special name.

lew brings up the vig again in 274. again, for what reason I don't know because the discussion should be dead by now, but keeping the fire alive I guess.

vig discussion kind of dies down. Then there's a few times dj directs the vig, which is semi-null though I don't like bringing it up at all.

Unlikely that don could be jumping on a town. If smash were lynched and flipped town (we have a ml, if vig isn't an idiot), then he will be in a very bad situation tomorrow.

^^ what did this mean?

This I don't like because it's stirring the pot of the vig talk again after we had moved on. Yes, lew started it and that's on him, but I feel dj knows better than to further this kind of talk.

Anyhow, coming back to the original question, no don I do not feel like you were the only one spurring that discussion on. Several players were and it was stupid. However, I don't think you're completely innocent in it either, as you're claiming. In fact, I don't even know what post you're getting the "vig shot was legit" from. Can you quote where you said anything like that because I must be losing it in your iso?

I do find it funny that implosion was accusing you of it when he also took a (albeit smaller) part in furthering on the talk about the vig.


ALSO, I've reassured myself that ThAdmiral is town again. So I'd be interested to hear some recent opinions from him.

[Gonzoooo]

dj - what do you think about myk's reads stated so far and his reasoning on PO?

@ smash replacing out. I won't be playing with you again.

More today or tomorrow.

[Gonzoooo]

First,

Mod, any deadline extension for smashbro replacement?

If not guys, we have like two days to lynch someone, so let's get our shit together. I think in their next post, everyone needs to make a list of people they would be willing to lynch today if they haven't already done so. I'd like to get a claim reasonably before deadline so there isn't shenanigans resulting in no lynch.

People I'm willing to lynch now:
smash
dj

People I

might

be convinced to lynch as a compromise:
vollkan
implosion

People who just appeared in the game and I have fuck-all of a read on:
mykonian

People I'm not interested in lynching today:
ThAdmiral
lewarcher
PurpleOrange

[Gonzoooo]

Congrats PO, you went from town to VI again. You should learn to see the forest for the trees and stop getting bogged down with so much paranoia.

In other news, why do you keep agreeing with myk's case on you? It was actually a pretty shittly put together case, so it's kind of odd that you're so readily agreeing with it (and he makes your possible lynch list, wtf?)

[Gonzoooo]

Because?

I feel like you're very much in the background of this game. You came out swinging and I like some of your stuff attacking smash, but then some of it feels very rhetorical and I have no real clue where you are standing at the moment. I mean, even dj doesn't like the smash case anymore, but you're still hanging on that vote and it doesn't seem like you're really trying to persuade people onto the lynch so much as you're lost for a new direction. I see you turning to look at suspects as other people bring them up rather than actively going after who you dislike (though I do give you credit for your lew case). In your next post, please fill out the list I asked from everyone and succinctly explain why you want smash lynched, or if you're moving on, why you'd want your new target lynched.

Because I have been indecisive? Srsly, does that post look decisive in ANY way to you? Do any of mine today?

I think there is plenty of genuine scumhunting from you today, even if you haven't been hyper-aggressive. I can see you asking real questions to people and trying to figure out WHY people want to lynch other people. Aggression is a null tell. So, that is why I find it odd that you're agree with myk, but your will seems to becoming increasingly jellyfish as the game progresses and gets more complex, so it could just be a personality trait.

I think this can actually be related to your issues with my "buddying" to you. You are worried about this because you see no reason for a town to buddy when they can't be 100% certain of a read. I will just say that my mafia theory is that being weak-willed and constantly paranoid makes you lose more often than reading the facts and taking a stance. Scum are terrified of townies that join together during the day and refuse to lynch each other. I've had a town read on your slot since Consig and I'm certain of that because that entire wagon read as very fabricated to me. Is there a chance I could be wrong? Sure. But based on my ability to read the situation, I'm willing to wager that I'm right and put any paranoia about that aside. I suggest you similarly learn to take stances once in awhile on things you're sure about. If you've been putting genuine effort in this game, and I feel you have, then who the hell is myk to say you're being indecisive because you're trying to figure things out. What is your scum motivation for asking a ton of questions and metaing dj to no end? Just a thought.

If we're really not lynching dj today (and I do think he's an excellent choice and it really was 1v1, but I don't have anything to prove that until the game is over), then I'm switching my vote to smash, implosion or vollkan.

[Gonzoooo]

Vote:smashbro

I'm not really a fan of following vollkan at this point...but I'm also not a fan of following smash and implosion either. Out of the three leading wagons, this seems the most generally agreeable to everyone and it will be informative. Deadline tomorrow, let's get it done people.

[Gonzoooo]

Gonz - you referenced smash as sounding like "not the sharpest hammer in the box" - were you getting some of this, too?

Yes, big time. I'm not going to be surprised at all if smash is a complete VI and flips town here, but we need a lynch today and getting rid of his slot isn't the

worst

thing that could happen today. I'd still prefer to lynch dj, but I highly doubt enough people are going to support that at this juncture.

I don't get why your reads changed, but we can discuss tomorrow if we're both alive I guess.

[Gonzoooo]

Vig should claim today I'm thinking.

[Gonzoooo]

Oh there are six alive, not five. Maybe we shouldn't claim then. NL without claiming is another option. If we go that route, we shouldn't really talk at all today. I can see the pros of both, but it kind of depends on who is who.

I would like dj's opinion.

[Gonzoooo]

@Gonzoo: What pros do you see in lynching?

Prevents scum from getting a free shot at the vig. If the vig were to claim today, we auto eliminate someone from the suspect pool. That or scum try to counter and die.

Obviously vig surviving the night is slightly better, but it makes counterclaiming easier and then we lose if we lynch wrong. So, it's kind of a toss up as to which situation has a better chance of hitting scum.

[Gonzoooo]

Oh wait. I forgot about the other part of the setup. NO MORE TALKING. Everyone vote No Lynch in their next post. Continued talking is scummy.

Vote: No Lynch

[Gonzoooo]

It really comes down to if we think the scum copped a PR by now.

Actually, even if they didn't maybe Thad is right. Say they copped a Vanilla last night that is still alive and we NL.

Scum have 2/3 chance hitting a PR tonight.
Then it's 3/2 and scum have a chance to CC during mass claim if they choose. That would make it 50/50. If they don't CC, then it's 1/4.

Unvote

Yeah, I think ThAd might be correct about the odds.

[Gonzoooo]

I'm ok with implosion claiming first. I also wouldn't mind vollkan claiming early on too.

[Gonzoooo]

Glad we made up, dj. Let's crush some scumskulls today. We should def. claim today unless you disagree with ThAd's numbers though.

[Gonzoooo]

I'm probably fine with that.

[Gonzoooo]

vollkan, go.

[Gonzoooo]

so it looks like gonzo is our vig and thad is confirmed. these are good things.

Will I be interfering with some grand gambit you had to catch the mafia if I go "What the bloody hell are you talking about?"

I'm not sure if you were trying to get me to claim vig so I would draw the NK or not, or if you still have your doubts about me and wanted to test a Gonzo-scum, but I don't think it's a good idea for me to lie at this juncture, as it'd cause more confusion than it's worth.

I'm Vanilla.

[Gonzoooo]

Or am I!

Bwhahahaha

[Gonzoooo]

Here's the plan of action:

Lynch: volokan
Thadmiral JKs PO
Gonzoooo/DJ kills implosion

If vollkan is town that means its 3/2 going into night; ThAd locks one scum (PO) up and Gonzoooo/DJ shoots the other while one of Gonzoooo/Don or ThAd get shot. That means it goes to 2/1 with two of Gonzoooo/DJ/ThAd against the last scum.

If vollkan is scum that means its 4/1 going into night; TheAd locks up one player and Gonzoooo/Don shoots the other. If implosion is town then we lynch PO as the last scum the next day. If implosion is last scum then game over.


Thoughts?

[Gonzoooo]

Hint: The scum are almost certainly vollkan and implosion.

Lynch one, shoot the other tonight, winrar and we all party at turning this game around so well.

@ThAd - do you honestly believe if I was scum that I'd be ballsy enough to mess with hypo-vig dj? Especially after I leaned on him so hard yesterday. That's ridiculous. Dj or I am the vig and we're creating just enough WIFOM to screw the scum over completely because we have this game figured out. I'll hold on my vote so we can talk about whatever you want to talk about, but my plan locks this game up tight.

[Gonzoooo]

PO might make a good lynch today too. She's starting to sound like uneasy scum more than happy-we're-gonna-slam-dunk-the-game-town.

I already stated the reasons I don't like vollkan yesterday.

Why implosion over vollkan?

[Gonzoooo]

then you jail noone. our only hope would be a clear vigshot.

Well that's not true. Thad jails one of the scums because it will be a lock who they are. Vig shoots the other one. Hopefully thad picks right and stops the kill, but if not it's a 2-1 lylo anyhow and the scum will be obv obv. 'Least from my perspective.

[Gonzoooo]

gonzo: a clear shot for the vig is better. if volkan flips town, then two scum are left. vig needs to hit one. better vig has three choices than two imo. but thats up to thad.

Right, now that I think about it, the jailing might be inconsequential tonight anyhow. As long as you shoot one of the scum, we're good. My plan would actually fail to stop the scum kill anyhow, so Thad doesn't need to jail if we mislynch today.

*eats peanuts*

[Gonzoooo]

the scummiest thing about vollkan is his lack of contribution yesterday, and it's consistent with his meta.

lol wut?

[Gonzoooo]

I was laughing about the meta part mostly. But anyhow. Just waiting for vollkan now.

Vote Count

implosion (1) - Purple Orange
Purple Orange (1) - implosion
No Lynch (1) - vollkan

Not Voting (3) - ThAdmiral, Gonzoooo, don_johnson

With 6 alive it is 4 to lynch. The deadline is set for the end of December 29th, PST.

[Gonzoooo]

Vote: volkan

What we have here is a failure to communicate.