Consulmaker II: the Pyrrhic War - Game over.

[Jack]

Confirm

[Jack]

Did I miss the rule telling us to confirm in thread?

It was in MY

town

role pm...guess you didn't get one of those

FOS:CHAMBER

[Jack]

I picked those two because I wanted people who would be willing to sit back and execute whoever the town fake lynches. That's important day one. Although I didn't realize nathaniel was an alt for someone.

I agree with the consuls not giving reads. An ideal kind of scenario is them posting execute on a top suspect/candidate without knowing what the other consul believes--makes it hard for scum to risk taking a shot at their buddy. Although that only works early on in the game, and it seems best for them to just follow the town today, sooo.

[Jack]

I don't know what you mean.

Another strategy thought: best picks in the future may very well be scummy-VI'ish type players (or at least one). People who are easy mislynch targets for scum and who might reveal info in their choices.

[Jack]

I played another game with an irregular voting (alternative vote mafia) . On the whole it was very awkward since there were no real wagons, lots of thumb twiddling. I'd rather today played out like a regular day one with us executing whoever wins the fake vote, just so we at least get started.

[Jack]

I...counterclaim the counterclaim I guess? Counter-counter-claim? Explain please ribwhich.

[Jack]

It's also an easy to prove role since I can announce who the new consuls will be before the next day starts.

If you are telling the truth please don't do this. At this point we are likely going to just kill one of you 2, but really, don't do this.

Unvote

Unsure on tribunes now.

I understand the dictator concerns but it seems like the only way to resolve the issue. Unless rib just confesses before it comes to that.

I decided right away that if someone else tried claiming my role, I would have no problem with counterclaiming it.

What on earth? When did you decide this? Because I'm completely baffled that my claim is disputed; I had no idea it would happen much less a plan of action.

I did remember the name SensFan (although nothing about him) from Price is Right Mafia, so I picked him and then just a random player.

Is this your way of criticizing my choices? For the record I did not choose randomly.

[Jack]

I agree, ribwhich should explain his point and unclaim. This derail has gone on long enough.

[Jack]

I don't think ribwhich is scum, his play makes no sense as scum.

fos:lowell

Scummy "rhetorical" questions

[Jack]

Hi,

Will decide who Im going to pick later

I can guarantee it won't be Lowell.

Your only comment?

[Jack]

Tribunals can only stop a lynch once.

vote tribune:Primate

Has been very sensible.

[Jack]

@Rabies post 110: Wouldn't we also get some formation if we tribunal vote someone today.

How important do you think that is?

[Jack]

It's easier to get started if people do things for at least some particular reason.

[Jack]

I'm not interested in the method.

Let's talk about how lowell and porochaz are scummy.

I don't like chesskid either.

[Jack]

Given that self-voting is possible unless I msised something, why are moer people not self vogting?

Did you deliberately make spelling errors in this post?

[Jack]

What's been town about lowell?

Why am I not surprised that Jack is less interested in doing this now that it's becoming harder for scum to use it to their advantage?

I'm not interested in which method.

[Jack]

Not interested in the

method

. aka, the way it is done.

chesskid's arguement isn't this sophisticated, though. It's just a vague dismissal of Nat with these meaningless five letters and he expects us to find meaning in them. Whenever someone doesn't clearly guide us through why we should think someone else is scum, that seems indicative of acting to me.

To me, chesskids looking to start an argument with someone. He's throwing around subpar arguments, but it's because he's trying to scrap, not to intentionally mislead. I don't really have a problem with that.

You agree it's not genuine, but why is "trying to scrap" townish?

[Jack]

lol @both of us being scum.

I think both of us are town. Rib's gambit is actually clever.

[Jack]

Don't worry about it.

This setup talk is disappointingly dull.

[Jack]

Suffragium:Porochaz

count:

Porachaz: 1 (Jack)

[Jack]

Let's get some more suffrigiumining going on.

[Jack]

[Jack]

Why don't you suffriginium someone?

[Jack]

Primate do you still think chesskid is town?

unvote tribune

[Jack]

...

[Jack]

ASAP

[Jack]

His suspicion is just omgus I guess. Well that's that taken care of...

[Jack]

I don't really know what that word means. I would like to see some kind of solid wagon structure though. Heck we could even "vote" for multiple people.

scratch

--that hard to spell thing

poweroxx (Jack)
chesskid (Jack)

[Jack]

Do people really not find powerrox scummy?

[Jack]

chesskid is a good lynch. The "I don't care act" is scummy espicially since the cracks in it are showing.

[Jack]

chesskid should die.

Sens is an idiot for putting in an execution so early. The fact that you wanted to end the day so quickly is scummy.

fos:scotmany

Has said zip today except talk about the consulmaker thing. Pretends to be semi-outraged about the idea that this day would be cut short. Someone who was actually disturbed by the idea of discussion being cut off so quick would have been actually scumhunting.

Also, what he did say about the consulmaker thing indicated that he thought it was simple, we should just "lynch one and if he's town lynch the other" or something like that. Which would be a very short day of course.

[Jack]

@mod:find a replacement for chesskid (or me)

[Jack]

Powerrox: Has done nothing. Well, thats not true - he tried to jump on the chess hate after his spew of one liners.
scotmany: "Jack is scum" "Jack is scum" "Jack is scum" "Sens is scummy" "Ohh here's why I'm lurking" "PROD THE LURKERS (which is apparently most of the game)".

1) yes, also called out the lurkers to post "ASAP"
2) yes, and his Sens suspicion is single minded and bizarre, especially since sens can't be lynched today. When someone points that out he says he's "pressuring" sens.

@ribwhich: since you say you are the consulmaker, why wouldn't you just pick, going for even or odd based on who you wanted to be consul?

[Jack]

pseudo vote: powerox, scotmany

[Jack]

Nominate Xreck for the "if we get deadlocked" lynch.

[Jack]

VETO: KATSUKI's EXECUTION

EXECUTE: KATSUKI

a little time-gain.

Your ego just has to let me accomplish nothing today, doesn't it?

Veto and then execute again.

a) want the katsuki lynch

Haven't decided how I feel about the timing though. Do we want to wait until a replacement arrives and has a chance to defend him, or just get it over with?

He's not really going to be replaced. That was just a give up, which I guess is a benefit of this setup.

[Jack]

So we're canceling the whole consul choice plan and doing it randomly? Weird.

Actually, I'd like any and all to chime in on my question.

We could lynch powerrox instead.

[Jack]

Feysal I wouldn't really trust meta reads like that. When I know someone always gets wagoned I tend to ignore the actual scum things they do. Kats replacement request post is very scummy.

[Jack]

The "oh this guy is probably town" --> *skim*

style? What don't you like?

[Jack]

kill powerrox now.

[Jack]

I picked from ribwhich's list for wifom to confuse scum, but I got the lists mixed up which is my bad you should have made it clearer which we were supposed to pick from, still on the whole I'm disappointed that people don't appreciate how protown a claim it was, lotta upside low downside considering the consul choices thus far.

[Jack]

That's a strawman.

I'm not saying I don't want a confirmed Town Tribune. I'm saying I don't want anyone, confirmed or not, to be deciding on who has the power of Execution

and the power to veto said Execution.

One wrong read on his part could be gg.

Yes it's obvious that he picked the consuls because they were anti-jack, or else I picked them for the same reason for extra wifom, either way I agree.

[Jack]

Fakeclaiming consul day 1 has two possible outcomes:

1) I get free reign as "confirmed town" day 1
2) I get counterclaimed and we kick of day 1 with

practically everyone

commenting on who they think is lying and who they think is scum. Scum KNOW that neither of us are scum. Town DOES NOT KNOW that. This is excellent. The fact that people generally didn't get it bodes well for the quality of the reads based on it.

Spoiler: comments

Post 59

We should not make Jack a tribune anymore.

Lacks commitment.
Post 63

It's hardly the only way to resolve the issue. We have you executed, then if you turn up town, we execute rib the next day.

Scum wheels turn, sees free execution

Post 64

So.... we already have a claim and counterclaim? We kill them, right? What's hard about this?

Same, but more on lowell later.

I think they are both probably town, and more that we try to figure out which one of the two is actually the consulmaker we help the scum. A gambit was run for cover, let's use it whilst we still have some ambiguity there.

Even aside from that, I don't see the benefit of us killing one of the two yet, it's going to become obvious which one of the two is consulmaker over the next few days, why even take the small chance that we hit the wrong one? The only

EBODP:

real downside is that we may have to override the consulmakers choice later if things get remain ambiguous .

I think that said a certain way "both are probably town" can be scum with inside info, but I don't get that feel here and primate is smart. The "let's not kill either" is pro-town and the fact that it was posted with part cut off adds to the likelihood of it being genuine.

Post 68
Nathanial is in the "let's kill one now camp"

Posts 71-73
Sens comes out against killing one of us, scot lashes back, sens has a plan on how to figure out who is telling the truth. More scummy from scot, and I think not being in the "kill today camp" this early is a town tell.

Post 74

Pretty good feeling one of our Consuls is scum, based on reactions to the counterclaim, and Primate may be as well. If one of Jack/ribwich are scum, Primate for first of all bringing up the possibility both could be town.

I don't see "If (something I know isn't true) is true, so and so is scummy and a good lynch" as ordinary scum thinking.

Post 75

if there is a townie in {Jack, ribwich} who fakeclaimed, UNCLAIM NOW!
you are doing us no favor at all keeping this up.

Don't see scum being drawn to any kind of urgency in this sort of request.

Post 117

I'll echo spry's 115. One of them needs to go. I don't care which, since neither is claiming a "power role" in any meaningful sense.

I feel a general lack of conviction on one of us being scum. Echoing spyrex, one of us "needs to go" rather than is scum, and he doesn't care which.

Post 154

Mert has a "they are both scum theory". I think this is far from scum's thinking at this point. Some of them are having trouble faking belief in just one of us.

Post 324

Sens is an idiot for putting in an execution so early. The fact that you wanted to end the day so quickly is scummy.

Don't think town would be outraged here and it doesn't jive with his earlier play. He later lapses back into a "pressuring" claim.

Post 375

scotmany: "Jack is scum" "Jack is scum" "Jack is scum" "Sens is scummy" "Ohh here's why I'm lurking" "PROD THE LURKERS (which is apparently most of the game)". Additionally, if there's some mystical reason and rib and Jack both are town I'd guarantee a scot scum under the kill em all.

Excellence.

Post 396

Jack is town
ribwich is town
...
I don't understand why people think one of the consuls is scum. Jack is obvtown for claiming in the first place and ribwich is obvtown for ccing. Town CAN lie y'know.
...
If one of the Consuls IS scum, it's probably Jack. Except that's what Rabies also said. Hmm. More reason to believe they're both town.

I would give parama a pass on this since we've played before, but he's replacing chesskid, who tacitly assumed we were both town but avoided the subject as much as he could. Combined they are a prime example of scum inside knowledge.

Post 526 + feysal's other entry posts
coming to bat for a scumbuddy in this setup is dangerous at that point in the game. Saving a townie is dangerous since you have no solid idea where the execution will end up. He also did a meta check on a game ribwhich mentioned and was clearly scrutinizing our play like a townie trying to figure it out.

Post 618

I see no reason as of now to not execute Jack today.

"No reason as of now", seriously?

Post 636

I'm still betting town, but Jack dies today.

???

back to null.

Post 637

vote ribwich

It's continually shocking to me that I'm not a consul.

Timestamp is: Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:55 am

And it's his only post today.

Lowell was in another game with me where I had claimed "doc or cop" in an open setup in my first post. I got nightkilled as vanilla townie around the time of n1 this game. He is trying to let a jack lynch slip through with no comment from him. He is posting on site regularly.

Post 641

Jack is town. Scum have no motivation for doing something retarded like that.

Post 673

Holy shit how'd I miss that?

Okay. Jack needs rope. Or guillotine. Or whatever.

Explain please.

Some of this I mentioned as I noticed it by this is from my read through. Xreck I know you don't read carefully so read the last bit for me special.

town:feysal, nathanial, Primate, sens
slightly town:mert,inhim

Scum:lowell, scotmany, parama

vote tribune:Primate

Pseudo vote: lowell
Pseudo vote: scotmany

Don't feel like rereading chesskids mess to make sure.

[Jack]

Jack is town. Scum have no motivation for doing something retarded like that.

Trying to protect the real consulmaker? I dunno. It's so fucking blatantly scummy, though, I can't see WHY scum would do it to draw attention to themselves.

Because at that point, it's obvious who the real consulmaker is?

I don't know, I just CAN'T see scum motivation behind it. Plus, the "real consulmaker" didn't get NKed.

Shit, I guess it is WIFOM.
I just feel like Jack is stupidtown instead of stupidscum. *shrug*

Whatevs. I won't miss him if he gets executed, but I'm still convinced he's town.

...did I skim the part where Jack is still trying to stick his Consulmaker claim?

Post #644

I picked from ribwhich's list for wifom to confuse scum, but I got the lists mixed up which is my bad you should have made it clearer which we were supposed to pick from, still on the whole I'm disappointed that people don't appreciate how protown a claim it was, lotta upside low downside considering the consul choices thus far.

Holy shit how'd I miss that?

Okay. Jack needs rope. Or guillotine. Or whatever.

Uhh. You kept up the I AM CONSULMAKER CLAIM even after your so-called plan had its desired effect.

I "kept up my consulmaker claim" with obvious jokes...picked from the lists for wifom but got the lists mixed up?

We played in gears of war so I KNOW you know I'm not that dumb. I fakeclaimed a role there and got mafia lynched too.

You came in today knowing I was town and then realized that was a scum thing to know and are trying to back out of it. None of your stated reasons for thinking I was town could have changed by noting that I was "keeping up my consulmaker claim"...which I clearly wasn't. Your "holy shit, how'd I miss that?" post reads as "holy shit, I got myself in trouble saying he was town!".

[Jack]

If Consulmaker, execute ribwich tomorrow.

Jacktown claims consulmaker to cover for the real consulmaker and try to attract a kill as a VT.

If this is what really happened, Jack made a terrible move. There was no need for me to have cover.

You three read 686.

Solution: We execute him. If he's town, we give the comment some gravity. If he's scum, we ignore it completely.

What's your opinion on xreck, or lowell and scotmany for that matter? And if I was scum why would you ignore xreck doing a flip a doodle on me for bad reasons?

[Jack]

which make his stupid fucking gambit a fucking idiotic move and he should never ever pull it again you fucking idiot.

Too passionate for something you claim to be sure isn't the case.

[Jack]

Execute: Jack

I wanna kill Reeeeeeeeeeck ;_;

Veto and execute xreck.

xreck's ungenuine waffling.

lowell's opportunistic forgetfullness.

scotmanies "I'm sure jack is scum" combined with cussing me out for a "stupid fucking gambit". If he was sure he'd caught jack-scum in this scenario it would be "haha, that was easy".

A lynch on me is lazy and crappy.

claim:masonizer

masonizing FAILED on moi as expected.

unvote, vote:magnaofillusion

but I think I'm voting him already.

# Sotty7 - Roleblocker - killed Night 4
# Zajnet - Townie - lynched Day 5

# Jack - Townie - killed Night 5

# Porochaz - Townie - lynched Day 7

And just for kicks:

MagnaofIllusion - Mafia Goon - survived

[Jack]

Are you actually saying you think there's a flip that would give even a fraction of the information a Jack flip would? Did you not read his long post that is a goldmine of information if we have the information he is Town? More importantly, we are going to have to lynch Jack at some point. Why in the name of Bahamut would we want to use a D3 or later lynch on someone we agree on D2 needs to be lynched?

Even with a jack-townflip you have to use your judgement about what reactions were scummy. And you can use your judgement now and lynch those people.

Jacks explanation was lacking. I don't see the advantage of taking this to last night as opposed to to coming out when the plan to restrict voting targets was revealed, a plan that forced the real consul to potentially compromise on his consul choices. The jokes thing he's suggesting was the kind of thing that I wanted from him, but the fact that I didn't notice it as that either means I suck or they were misjudged.

Having ribwich of all people veto Jack's execution is even more unexpected. I will be interested in Jack's response, and in ribwich's case. For the record, I could almost believe Jack's explanation in #686, but I think it was too late. If he had posted that at the end of yesterday or first thing today, it might have worked for me. I once made a controversial move too, to provoke reactions and get some discussion going. I faked a post restriction (real bad one too, I wrote in iambic verse), but I explained my ruse halfway through the first day. In Jack's case here, it should have been clear to him that he would be tested, and I can't see why he would wait so long before posting his explanation.

It's better to drag it out. And primate there were good people on rib's list. What did you mean by "this is glorious" earlier?

Faking post restrictions is ok but doesn't start all that much in my experience.

I'm seriously not amused.

If there are better choices than jack WHO ARE THEY?

How many scum do you think are in this game and how many do you plan on catching?

scotmany, xreck, and lowell are scum. Agree/disagree.

[Jack]

Scot, you said it "wouldn't surprise you if both reck and dram are scum" but can you say more about how you feel about this lynch compared to alternatives?

[Jack]

back, and will try and catch up.

vote tribune:ribwich

I'm surprised dramonic was scum. Bussing that hard is a bad strategy when you might get made consul and have to follow through.

[Jack]

I recommend executing lowell.

[Jack]

I was absent over the holiday in all my games, but I also don't have much to say. Lowell and parama are my top two.

[Jack]

@Lowell: If you want Jack dead, why did you vote for ribwich as tribune, given that his major accomplishment so far has been vetoing Jack?

Just ditch the execute jack stuff and and get behind a lowell lynch. Part of your accusation was that I haven't been catching scum, but we have xreck and lowell.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2597554

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2656190

[Jack]

Good game.

[Jack]

I didn't really think about whether it was a good idea, it was just too tempting. I planned it before I got my role I think. But, it was very pro-town, even though my follow up was extremely lackluster. Often the point is just to get things started.