Mini 1086 - KGB Mafia Game Over

[Empking]

We should massclaim.

Vote: Blood Queen

- Rhetorical questions that hint of additional knowledge.
BQ: Thoughts on Mass claim? What do you think of bv's second post? Who are your buddies?

[Empking]

We should massclaim.

Vote: Blood Queen

- Rhetorical questions that hint of additional knowledge.
BQ: Thoughts on Mass claim? What do you think of bv's second post? Who are your buddies?

No.

Expand. Also your views on tume and Zdenk please. Also, who's alt are you?

Why do you want a massclaim?

Puts the town in a better position to judge claims and it puts the scum into a position they'd rather not be in (which is where they actually slip up.)

Vote: Zdenk

- How did I rolefish?

[Empking]

theplague: Thoughts on mass claim? Also your views on tume and Zdenk please. Also, who's alt are you?

[Empking]

We should massclaim.

Vote: Blood Queen

- Rhetorical questions that hint of additional knowledge.
BQ: Thoughts on Mass claim? What do you think of bv's second post? Who are your buddies?

No.

Expand. Also your views on tume and Zdenk please. Also, who's alt are you?

Outs our powerroles, giving scum the knowledge of the set-up and a better idea whom could be dangerous to them.

That's true but I think the benfits outweigh the negatives. Honestly, if I've read MD correct about the balance of mini normals then we need to shake this up, not just play the night game.

Zdenk: I don't think the game would be broken just ourd odds of winning increased.

[Empking]

Puts the town in a better position to judge claims and it puts the scum into a position they'd rather not be in (which is where they actually slip up.)

[Empking]

links to topics from MD discussing it?
Disagreed, btw. Analysis > Night game > outguessing the mod.

I agree with you. I just think Mass Claim helps heavily with Analysis.

zdenk: Any protective roles better claim their actual role if we mass claim. If the case is that they all claim VT then:
1. They can't come up with a roleclaiming gambit to trick the town.
2. Allows us to come up with a plan for night actions and close to confirms our power roles.

Mainly the first one.

[Empking]

Aw, that's a shame, Empking. I thought you were baiting scum to overreact on rolefishing, rather than actually being serious.

Couldn't it be both

I'm against D1 massclaim not because of any argument about how it affects our chances, just because it's not really the spirit in which I would prefer to play the game of mafia.

Really? Why?

[Empking]

Massclaim too early takes away from the mystery of early-game mafia and makes it more like late-game mafia, and I prefer Day 1 to the more fiddly later days, generally speaking.

OK. Honestly, that's one of its main strengths.

(My vote wasn't just random either.)

[Empking]

@Empking: mass-claiming is terrible. Suppose, we have a cop and a doc power role. Mafia can simply all claim vanilla townies, shryioot the doc, then the cop. We'll lose all our prs quickly and the cop will likely manage to get only 1 or 2 reports.

And the odds of us having that set up are? (the

one

where I'll admit its probably better not to MC.)

I dislike the way Zdenek is acting under pressure.

[Empking]

Zdenek: I don't think you're gambitting so I'll answer. A serious vote is just opposed to a random vote. Scum can make them and so can lying town it has nothing to do with seriously thinking something.

[Empking]

Zdenek: I don't think you're gambitting so I'll answer. A serious vote is just opposed to a random vote. Scum can make them and so can lying town it has nothing to do with seriously thinking something.

He said serious accusation, not serious vote, it might be a matter of semantics, but isn't that the entire point.
Why can't honest town make a serious vote?

They can.

[Empking]

Ok I read through as much as I could and the verdict is.... I am completely confused and disoriented! There are more accusations flying around here than at a Joseph McCarthy speech! I'm going to unvote for now and wait until I see a couple new posts. I'm not really getting any hard reads off of anybody. Seems

mostly like townies squabbling

with scum either flying under the radar

or trying to start arguments that will end nowhere.

So basically, I got nothing.

Unvote

Clarify or say which one you think. (They look like they contradict each other to me.)

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: Viral

[Empking]

LOet's wagon wagon wagon Viral.

[Empking]

LOet's wagon wagon wagon Viral.

What does "LOet's" mean?

Just that I can't type. (Let's)

[Empking]

We're only 100 posts in, but as much as I got, I'm feeling Emp or CDB is scum. Not both, but I'm leaning more towards Empking. Mainly for his MC gambit. Some attribute it to him being Town and trying to out dumb Mafia, but I think that he is scum, and the MC was still just a gambit, to try to earn easy town-cred. I didn't want to point it out before, but I will now. If he is scum, the most vocal townies against MC would be PRs, would they not?

No, why would they?

As for Emp, I got a question: What was your reasoning for voting for Zd, and what changed causing you switched to me? Not only switch, but to push for a wagon (something you were trying to do on Zdenek too).

Wagons build pressure. Pressure is essential to get a read on players.

[Empking]

I'm just going to come out and say it. We need a Mass Claim or the level opf activity in this game will cause us to lose.

[Empking]

zdenek: What is your main point against BQ? Why is it scummy?
Viral: Thoughts on BQ?

[Empking]

Nah, I like my vote on VM.

[Empking]

Zdenek: I'm voting VM for Fence sitting, unhelpfulness (not voting ect) and leaving once people started to focus on other players.

[Empking]

RC: Do you think it'd be in the towns best interests for you to claim? Also, can you tell us any more about Secret Agent mafia?

[Empking]

MoI: Yes I absolutely consider MC the best route for the town in almost all modern set ups.

Unvote

Vote:Zdenek

Yeah I think he's been dishonstedly flaining underneath Volkan's attacks.

[Empking]

Tume - Why isn't CDB sophisticated enough to pull a ""Deeply sorry. If you don't see a post with new thoughts from me in the next eight hours, lynch me. I'm completely serious."" gambit?

[Empking]

Me, Xdaamo, Volkan, CDB and DGB for town alliance!

[Empking]

RC: So you think all the good players in this game (that's who I picked: the good players and myself) are town? Also, what's wrong with Empking suggesting it?

[Empking]

What's "the above"? (I agree with everything other than MOI's read on Snake.)

[Empking]

I was just referring to the MOI quote immediately above.

Agree or disagree with it?

I agree with him absolutely about Zdenek. Disagree with him on the rest.

[Empking]

I was thinking of this game: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15549 (ongoing but Snake's alignment is poublic knowledge.)

[Empking]

Actually, when I think about it...I really don't think RC would be this blatant about saying "hey, I want to lynch someone without making a case on them" if he was scum. And as he pointed out, it wouldn't make much sense to strongly defend Zdenek. I know these are WIFOM, so I'm definitely still suspicious of him. But I think it's worth an UNVOTE: ReaperCharlie.

On the other hand, Zdenek's vote on me parroted others, as I have already pointed out. And when he realized how suspicious the vote looked, he tried to make up for it with a case that he made after the fact. This was in addition to his previous case on vollkan, which seemed like it was mainly an attempt to undermine his main attacker. VOTE: Zdenek

Translation:

"Uh oh! ReaperCharlie looks like he might make a case on me! I'm nervous! I might actually be lynched... *sadface* ...quick, I'm gonna switch my vote shiftily to the other biggest wagon for feeble reasons, in hopes that I can push it through before someone says something really damning about me!

But I'm still gonna make a token statement saying that I'm still 'definitely suspicious' of Charlie, so that it doesn't look like I am erroneously changing my vote, and/or backtracking on a stance I held pretty firmly earlier!"

*closes eyes, crosses fingers, hopes nobody will notice*

Is that scummy?

[Empking]

Zdenek, its four days to deadline. Please claim, we don't want to have to rush a wagon.

[Empking]

MOI: My first thought was to say "yes" but truth be told, I'm on both the biggest wagon and the one that's most likely to hit scum. So I'll say "No".

[Empking]

Zdenek: Claim, please.

[Empking]

So CDB is scum for avoiding the game, and once he flips we can lynch Vollkan for this:

He's declared VLA outside of this game, but if he is still posting elsewhere on site, he needs to either read up asap and give this game priority or replace out. The first rule of this game is to play to advance your win condition, and I don't see how, if he is town, CBD would seriously think that continuing to play in the manner that he has been (ie. not giving this game priority) does that.

Obvious coaching with a threat to reluctantly bus.

That's lynch-worthy obvious, in your mind?

[Empking]

4. And as for what I think of vollkan, I think he's incorrect, tunneling, and stubborn. And his 'scale' is a joke.

Is he town though?

[Empking]

RC: I think you're probably scum and I don't like the type of case you gave (Looking at pretty much everything he's written and framing it in the worse probable light.)

[Empking]

Now please comment on the other stuff, Empking. That's not the only thing I asked you.

And gandalf... see the light man. Vote for bvoigt instead of Zdenek. He's the real scum.

I have no need to catch up because I haven't fallen behind.

[Empking]

please comment on the other stuff

, Empking. That's not the only thing I asked you.

And gandalf... see the light man. Vote for bvoigt instead of Zdenek. He's the real scum.

I have no need to catch up because I haven't fallen behind.

I didn't ask if you were caught up, I asked you to comment on other stuff and answer my questions.

What questions? What stuff?

[Empking]

ReaperCharlie
Zdenek
Xdaamo

[Empking]

Reaper Charlie: I'm of the view that there are two possibilities about the Zdenek wagon. Either Zdenek is scum or scum are already on the Zdenek wagon. Its clearly not the latter so it must be the former.

[Empking]

bvoigt is clearly not scum? 5 people disagree.

Was that directed to me because I don't think I said that.

[Empking]

1. I can agree with you on Leech, but SV and BQ are on V/LA. And with that being said, wouldn't it help the town more to let us know what you're thinking?
2. You sound like you are afraid to place a vote.

My post above has some of my thoughts.
I like to vote deliberately. I understand voting for someone to pressure them into caving and revealing information, but truly, if I was to do that, I would be voting for myself
If I was to vote for VM's suspect numero uno (empking), it could just be seen as a OMGUS, and he is currently at 0, so it wouldn't accomplish much.

Wow this post is horrible. He isn't voting.... because he's afraid it'll be seen as OMGUS? I did this once, when I went through a phase where I was CONSTANTLY getting accused of it, where I just wouldn't vote for anybody who was voting for me, but it was out of ANGER, not fear.
Also horrible: VM's insistence that his wagon was started by scum, but his subsequent REFUSAL to actually name them. Just seems like an easy way to cop out of actually answering to the points against him.

I'm just going to come out and say it. We need a Mass Claim or the level opf activity in this game will cause us to lose.

I really don't like this, especially after he already said that the time before was a gambit.

I don't think he did.

[Empking]

Reaper Charlie: I'm of the view that there are two possibilities about the Zdenek wagon. Either Zdenek is scum or scum are already on the Zdenek wagon. Its clearly not the latter so it must be the former.

You said that clearly scum are not already on the Zdenek wagon. bvoigt is on the Zdenek wagon. Therefore, you are saying that bvoigt is clearly not scum. Anything wrong with that?

Ah, I should have written "THE scum" rather than just scum.

Gandalf: I don't think I said that wasn't but I'm sure I wouldn't have said it was just a gambit.

[Empking]

"THE SCUM" is all of them "SCUM" can refer to just one.

I don't think bvoigt is scum, though but that's an unrelated issue.

[Empking]

Reaper Charlie: I'm of the view that there are two possibilities about the Zdenek wagon. Either Zdenek is scum or scum are already on the Zdenek wagon. Its clearly not the latter so it must be the former.

Ah, I should have written "THE scum" rather than just scum.

"THE SCUM" is all of them "SCUM" can refer to just one.

So either I am scum or all the scum are on my wagon? That is a false dichotomy if I've ever heard one. It's also a pretty bad reason to avoid giving your opinions on other people's cases.

If its a false dichtomy that you'll be able to give another possible explaination for why you haven't been lynched (especially if we're to believe that you think bvoigt is scum.) Can you provide another explaination?

[Empking]

So, to be clear: You believe the only reason Zd hasn't been lynched is because none of his buddies will bus him?

No, the reason he hasn't been lynched yet is because his buddies (or at least one of them) are pushing strongly to get bvoigt lynched.

[Empking]

And exactly who are his buddies?

You obviously and if I was to hazard a guess for the third I'd go with Xdaamo.

[Empking]

So it sounds like you are firmly in a camp with Magna. Do you think Magna is town?

Absolutely, for the same reason that you've hinted at (viz. I know he's thinking like a townie.)

And if Zdenek flips town, what then? Who are the scum? Is it still me and Xd?

I very much doubt that Zdenek will flip town but yes it'd still be you two. Even independant of Zdenek both of you have been the scummiest two.

RC: I'm pretty sure I have vote for you(r player slot).

Preview: Wouldn't buy that explaination in a million years. Why wouldn't scum not want to hammer? (I'll get to your question in a minute.)

[Empking]

Zdenek: Its mostly the fact that his posts suggests more pro-town intention than I feel are actually there (long posts but little information that's good for the town) and his weak reaction to the pressure on the "welcome" thing.

Preview: Yeah not buying it.

[Empking]

So Empking, you honestly think that myself and Xdaa are scum WHETHER OR NOT Zdenek is scum? Not only is that pretty stupid (no offense), but it opens up an even larger can of worms, which is why my most important question to you is this, which is what this entire exchange has been building up to:

If Zdenek's flip (whether town OR scum) will tell you nothing (i.e. you'll still think the SAME people are scum), then WHY DO YOU WANT TO LYNCH HIM?

SO THAT YOU'LL START DAY 2 KNOWING NO MORE THAN YOU KNOW NOW?

1. It will tell me something, it'll tell me that you and Xad are almost certainly scum rather than merely being the most likely.
2. Because scum lynches are good.
3. Zdenek might be a godfather, roleblocker or similar.
4. Because the alternative seems to be a town lynch.
5. Because Zdenek flipping scum will make it easier to lynch my other two scum reads.

[Empking]

If Zdenek is scum:
1. If Zdenek is scum, it totally doesn't make sense for me to be so vocally opposed to his lynch. Ever heard of bussing? I'm doing the opposite. Do you really think I'm that terrible of a scum player to un-bus Zdenek this hard? Have you even READ my scum games? Literally, you make no sense.
2. Duh?
3. Cool. I'm down to lynch a godfather any day, but I don't think Zd is one.
4. If Zdenek flips scum, that still doesn't clear bvoigt. Not by a long shot. i.e. IT STILL TELLS US NOTHING. So this point is immaterial.
5. If Zdenek flips scum and you want to lynch me for it, you're an IDIOT. P.S. No offense.

Love,
Reaper

1. So you already have your WIFOM laden defense prepared if you don't manage to protect your scumbuddy from the lynch? Cool.
2. Ask a stupid question.
3. Yes, that's because you KNOW whether or not he's one. (He he he *Snort* he he)
4. Town lynches are bad.
5. Who's the player trying to protect Zdenek in whatever way he can possibly manage. (e.g. a PBPA (which makes everyone scummy) or this last little back to forth.)

[Empking]

I say let's lynch Zdenek or bvoigt (I don't care too much which one, it'll get tons of info either way) and let's get on with it. Day 2, here we come.

Then move your vote to Zdenek.

[Empking]

Vote: bvoigt

[Empking]

Emp, what happened to:

I very much doubt that Zdenek will flip town but yes it'd still be you two [referring to ReaperCharlie and Xdaamno]. Even independant of Zdenek both of you have been the scummiest two.

I slept on it. I still feel that Reaper independant of Zdenek's flip is very scummy but I think that the flip possibly damns you.

[Empking]

Emp, what happened to:

I very much doubt that Zdenek will flip town but yes it'd still be you two [referring to ReaperCharlie and Xdaamno]. Even independant of Zdenek both of you have been the scummiest two.

I slept on it. I still feel that Reaper independant of Zdenek's flip is very scummy but I think that the flip possibly damns you.

You think that RC and I are both scum?

I wouldn't swallow my tongue if that turned out to be the case but probably not.

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: Dana

I've been thinking about Dana's "I'm an easy lynch" for a long time and he keeps on niggling at me like crazy. It doesn't strike me as a natural thing that town would act on.

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: Reaper

[Empking]

Sens: I don't think we should massclaim today. My views on Massclaim in general have changed since day 1.

[Empking]

Dana, if you really want the game to pick up you should vote Reaper.

[Empking]

Dana, if you really want the game to pick up you should vote Reaper.

This is pure fail. I don't vote likely town because people tell me to or because it'll lynch a player faster.

Is it fair to say that you're more concerned with not voting town than lynching scum?

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: bvoigt

Claim or die?

[Empking]

Vote: RC

- I couldn't tell you.

[Empking]

I couldn't tell you.

Is this a hint?

Oh god no. I wrote that competely wrong, that was an answer to MOI's question.

[Empking]

Kats; How scummy would you say your typical play is?
Also, why Sens/ Does the fact that you're the only player with significant suspiucion of him impact your descision at all?

[Empking]

Also, would someone mind reminding me of the typical reaction to suggesting No Lynch in 3:5? (I strongly suspect we're in 3:5)

[Empking]

Sens, is there anyone who's death tonight would cause you to not want to lynch Kat? (I don't want names here.)

[Empking]

Is Papum trying to stall for a lifetime?

[Empking]

Your claim is "black wizards?"

????????????????????????????

I'm pretty sure "black wizards" was a joke.

[Empking]

im vt.

[Empking]

Katsuki!

[Empking]

Please popcorn.

[Empking]

VT

Sens

[Empking]

Why did you two target Volkan?

[Empking]

No Lynch is pointless then so who's up with lynching the rat.

[Empking]

I disagree completely with Xdaamo. In the (next to zero) chance we have a doctor then scum will have a roleblocker. If we lynch today then there are more town voices to drown out the scum's votes.

[Empking]

But here's where you need to think extra-carefully, so pay attention.

The advantage of being able to listen to a near-confirmed town player's opinions today isn't at all exclusive to the situation of us lynching someone.

We have the option to let SensFan say all he wants to say on who should be lynched, and then to follow that advice tomorrow.

You've played mafia before right?

[Empking]

Snip

Woo hoo. That's that obv-town MoI I remember from day 1 and 2.

[Empking]

pr: Only two scum?

[Empking]

vote: pappumsrat

We must simply hope he is scum at this point.
OFF-TOPIC:
SensFan, why did you flake from Blackest Night? I've been having a heckuva time replacing you.

I can replace.

What's stopping you from hammering?

[Empking]

pr: The set up better not be 1 Godfather, 2 Goons vs a Cop and Bulletproof.

[Empking]

LMP: Considering the number of replacements required this game couldn't have been easy to mod and you did very well. I can't think of anywhere you went wrong. I also very much enjoyed the quotes that went along with the vote counts. So, well done!

Scum playede very well. I'd give additional props to MoI who had me fooled completely with regards to his alignment.

With regards to the set up, the game did go awfully as far as night choices went: Nobody and the investigation immune mafia but I think that's too much of an easy out. The game balance was flawed and I'm disapointed at the comitee for letting it pass. ( I think the problem was underestimating the worth of the traitor. I wouldn't call traitors an advantage but they very much have their good qualities.)

[Empking]

can we have the scum qt?

I'm all for posting it ... it is only 19 posts long

I don't know what LMP's standard is but unless he posts them himself I'm going to wait for Xdaa's approval before doing so. Just being polite.

Look at the scum's role PM (that LMP just posted).

[Empking]

Re: Set up: At the end of Day 3, I honestly thought the set up was Godfather and Goon VS 1 Cop, 1 Un-NKable, 8 Townies. With your changed I'd've went with 3 out of 4 of them.