Open 268: Raise the White Flag (Game Over)

[bvoigt]

VOTE: andrew94 for claiming cop as a VT in my first game.

[bvoigt]

Vote: bvoigt

since andrew's prob. not gonna do that this game.

True, but there's more than one way to play like a VI.

[bvoigt]

UNVOTE: andrew94
VOTE: Cookie_of_Death

Even though he wants more people to post, he tries to stop discussion here:

Why are you so insistent on this answer? It doesn't seem like it would provide any reliable indications of silver's alignment.

Plus, after making a semi-serious vote on chkflip, he changes his vote to Stefunny for an RVS-type reason.

[bvoigt]

Wait a second. Did werewolf just breadcrumb cop?

[bvoigt]

Even andrew's explicit explanation you missed? That's simply not believable.

QFT. I thought it was a coincidence at first, but I think a townie would have read his first two posts and seen the accidental breadcrumb, instead of denying that anything happened.

UNVOTE: Cookie_of_Death
VOTE: werewolf555

[bvoigt]

But I don't get why that is something suspicious?

It's suspicious because the breadcrumb would set you up to claim cop later in the game, and a townie would have no reason to lie and make a false claim. I think you just forgot that it was an open setup.

[bvoigt]

You don't have to be an asshole, CN.

UNVOTE: andrew94
VOTE: Cookie_of_Death

Even though he wants more people to post, he tries to stop discussion here:

Why are you so insistent on this answer? It doesn't seem like it would provide any reliable indications of silver's alignment.

Plus, after making a semi-serious vote on chkflip, he changes his vote to Stefunny for an RVS-type reason.

Try to stop discussion? Anything to warrant that? Don't you think it could have elicited something from chkflip (I was actually hoping for that, and it never materialized)?

I guess you're just assuming we all think the second one is a scumtell.

It looks like trying to stop discussion because you called him out for asking a question that was perfectly reasonable, IMO.

With that being said, I'm waiting for werewolf to post again, and don't really have anything else to say.

[bvoigt]

VOTE: rekirtS

Striker, if you insist on making sure everyone takes a turn with the "talking stick" before you get it a second time, the game's activity level is going to plummet and we'll go into apathy mode far too soon since we're going to be waiting on one person all the time. Don't ignore the lurkers, but don't make that the reason you're clamming up now.

Gotcha, makes sense, just wanted to get everyone to post atleast once.

But onto the game, this is either really dumb scum play or some crazed gambit. Not sure how you keep denying this.

Unvote, Vote: Werewolf555

Out of all the votes, this one feels especially like "Hey, I'll just go along with the popular way of thinking and hope for a quicklynch." My feeling about Shotty's hammer is that he wouldn't have been

that

blatant.

[bvoigt]

I didn't vote Shotty cause I wanted to hear from him first. no need to rush another quick lynch.

There was only 1 vote on shotty at the time and there's 6 to lynch. You seriously didn't vote him because you feared a quicklynch?

Yeah, I don't like this either. You're trying to appear pro-town by telling us to avoid another quicklynch, when there is really no reason to avoid voting.

Preview Edit: You had no problem placing a hasty 4th vote, but you aren't going to place a hasty 1st vote?

[bvoigt]

@Shotty: could you please provide the links to a couple of your completed town games, and a couple of your completed scum games?

[bvoigt]

This game is moving slowly...I looked at some of Shotty's completed games, and I could see him placing that hammer as scum or as town. At this point, I'm really not sure about him. Also, #157 makes some good points. Town read on CN.

[bvoigt]

It's pretty difficult to scumhunt with this low amount of activity. Let's start some discussion!

UNVOTE: rekirtS
VOTE: bvoigt

[bvoigt]

It's pretty difficult to scumhunt with this low amount of activity. Let's start some discussion!

UNVOTE: rekirtS
VOTE: bvoigt

Well, none of the scum were gullible enough to try to paint this as a scumtell. Silverbullet's response just seems confused, not scummy, so I don't necessarily agree with Andrew's #166. However, I can see what he was thinking when he wrote it, so that gets some town points.

UNVOTE: bvoigt
VOTE: Cookie_of_Death

I will answer CN's questions and explain this vote tomorrow, hopefully.

[bvoigt]

VOTE: Cookie_of_Death

I will answer CN's questions and explain this vote tomorrow, hopefully.

In Cookie's ISO #7, he votes Andrew for trying to discourage the wagon. Now, if he agrees with the wagon, why wouldn't he be voting Werewolf? Perhaps he wanted to avoid suspicion later by being off of the mislynch wagon. Then, in the very next post, he votes Shotty for being willing to end the day, even though he finds Werewolf scummy. On D2, in ISO #13, he changes his mind and defends Shotty for hammering.

The fact that you would even consider hammering on page 4 is scummy to me regardless of everything else.

I doubt we would see such a reckless hammer from scum.

I think someone mentioned this already, but these two quotes are the most blatant contradiction.

@everyone: Who's your 2nd scumpick and why?

rekirtS, because of his bandwagoning, "go-with-the flow" vote for Werewolf on D1.

@bvoigt: Pick out two people, one whom you believe to be scum, and one whom you believe to be town. Play the devils advocate (defend who you think is scum and attack who you think is town).

I believe SnakePlissken (COD's replacement) is scum, but I did agree with COD's suspicions of rekirtS. And I think you (Chaotic Neutrality) are town. However, you voted for yabbaguy in ISO #2, so why did you switch to Werewolf after one of your main suspects pointed out why he was scummy?

Cookie_of_Death: leaning townie, but makes me paranoid at the same time.

Could you please explain this more in-depth?

[bvoigt]

Could you please explain this more in-depth?

Sure. I think hes town but defending shotty for him and pressuring me to vote doesn't side well with me.

Then why do you think he's town?

Bvolgt

-

Even though he wants more people to post, he tries to stop discussion here:

Why are you so insistent on this answer? It doesn't seem like it would provide any reliable indications of silver's alignment.

Asking questions does not "stop discussion". That was a funky vote.

He was asking a semi-rhetorical question about...why someone else wanted an answer to a question? It looked to me like trying to discourage discussion.

-BV brought up the werwolf breadcrumb not voting on it initially, just throwing it out there. And then:

QFT. I thought it was a coincidence at first, but I think a townie would have read his first two posts and seen the accidental breadcrumb, instead of denying that anything happened.

Hm. So you don't vote until you gauge reactions and people already start voting; even though you apply logic to WHY werewolf did it and WHY it was scummy to you. It seems you were trying to see the reaction before voting.

Well, to be honest, I did think it was a little silly, and I did want to see if others felt it was even worth looking into. Also, werewolf's reaction seemed odd. #53 had a different tone than #54-- in one, he sounded irritated, and in the other, he just sounded confused.

Out of all the votes, this one feels especially like "Hey, I'll just go along with the popular way of thinking and hope for a quicklynch." My feeling about Shotty's hammer is that he wouldn't have been that blatant.

A vote for Striker here, this is the first time these three start to look at each other. Also, he agrees shotty scum isn't likely, he can't be THAT stupid.

-Chases Striker more in post 132
-Post 159 shows he's finding shotty's actions neutral, and he's digging to find meta on shotty's play (kind of town-esque). He then says CN seems town.

Bvoigt, why does CN come off as town to you?

The post that stands out to me is ISO #9. Pointing out Cookie's contradiction is, in my opinion, one of the best points anyone's made in this game.

-Votes himself for some dumb reason.

Well, none of the scum were gullible enough to try to paint this as a scumtell.

What? How is voting yourself a scumtell, and what the hell were you trying to do with that? Makes no sense.

Exactly. If anyone had tried to call me scum for self-voting, I would have been suspicious of them, because it wasn't really indicative of my alignment. In other words, I thought the scum might try to start a wagon on me for it. Plus, I thought something weird needed to happen to spark discussion.

[bvoigt]

Then why do you think he's town then?

Because I don’t think he’s scum? And the reasons he makes me paranoid aren’t too scummy.

Er...you're missing the point of the question. Has he done anything to make you feel he's town?

[bvoigt]

He's had a strong opinion, but don't you think some of those strong opinions have been contradictory?

[bvoigt]

@rekirtS: So, do you still think he's town?

[bvoigt]

Sorry for not posting...I haven't found much to comment on in the last page. I will say that rekirtS seems somewhat afraid to accuse Snake.

[bvoigt]

Sorry for not posting...I haven't found much to comment on in the last page. I will say that rekirtS seems somewhat afraid to accuse Snake.

What are you trying to say? Snake and I are scumbuddies?

Yes.

[bvoigt]

So...basically, you don't want to scumhunt because it will make you more suspicious?

[bvoigt]

Wait...you are already accusing scum buddies when one scum hasn't been gotten. Not only that, but striker votes snake for WHAT reason? That is either some silly ass distancing or a really shoddy vote.

Well, I thought they were both scummy for separate reasons, and the fact that rekirtS didn't want to accuse Snake just added to their scumminess. You're right, though...I won't bring this up again unless one of them flips scum.

UNVOTE: SnakePlissken
VOTE: chkflip

Unfortunately, we probably don't have enough support to lynch either of them; this seems like a good place for my vote with the deadline in a few days.

[bvoigt]

Chkflip is not my #1 scum candidate, but I don't want a no lynch. And, like I said earlier, there probably isn't enough support for lynching you or rekirtS. BTW Snake, have you read the entire thread?

[bvoigt]

DON'T SELF HAMMER AS TOWN!!

Anyway, I still think Snake is scum, and probably rekirtS. However, I'm wondering why the scum killed Stefunny. I certainly didn't have a strong town read on her, and it didn't seem like she was heavily accusing anyone.

[bvoigt]

Who do you have a strong town read on then?

Good point, there really isn't anyone I have an overly strong read on.

[bvoigt]

Anyway, I still think Snake is scum, and probably rekirtS.

Again: why? reasons rule here folks!

Check my ISOs #7 and #13.

[bvoigt]

Right now my top suspect is bvoigt. He's the third person on each lynch, and not only that, but both times as a follower, not a case maker. It really seems to me as if he is riding the coat tails of the bigger speakers whenever they are wrong. Infact the

only

reason he stopped making his weak case on Cookie/Snake is to unvote and vote with the wagon. I'd like to point out that Snake and Bv have been tunneling each other all game, without actually stepping up to the plate and nailing a case, and without seriously chasing each other down. Snake has refused a strong read on anyone all game. Not to get too far ahead of myself, but I believe Bv and Snake are scumbuddies.

Keep in mind that I was the first to point out Werewolf's "breadcrumb." I admit I was a follower on the chkflip lynch, but my vote was made with just a few days to the deadline, as I thought it was time to start coming to a consensus.

DON'T SELF HAMMER AS TOWN!!

Anyway, I still think Snake is scum, and probably rekirtS. However, I'm wondering why the scum killed Stefunny. I certainly didn't have a strong town read on her, and it didn't seem like she was heavily accusing anyone.

I can only assume because I had a vote on and that makes me preynlater on, but you'd already know that wouldn't you?

Are you talking about her vote for Cookie on D1? If so, does it really seem likely that I would kill her just for that? In other words, would I really be able to convince anyone that you were more likely to be scum based on the kill?

[bvoigt]

I would like to point out I didn't avoid the vote, I didn't believe they were scummy enough too vote. I think theres far too much scum wagonning going on here.

You didn't think

anyone

was scummy enough to be voted?

FOS: Snake

[bvoigt]

@rekirtS: Too easy?

[bvoigt]

Well you're on everybodies scumlist so either your town and the scum pushing to end it or your scum buddies are already bussing you out, I'm not sure which. I'm thinking either you or Snake are scum here.

Yesterday, you thought I was one of the towniest people. But now that other people suspect me, you've suddenly changed your mind, and are willing to lynch me.

FOS: rekirtS

[bvoigt]

I would like to point out I didn't avoid the vote, I didn't believe they were scummy enough too vote. I think theres far too much scum wagonning going on here.

You didn't think

anyone

was scummy enough to be voted?

FOS: Snake

No you are deliberately misquoting me, I was talking in reference to CN's post on who voted for who. I find

you

plenty scummy enough for a vote fairly shortly.

FOS Bvoigt

Yes, you were referring to CN's post, but that doesn't change what you said.

[bvoigt]

So you were deliberately misquoting me then?

Vote bvoigt

Lets get this wagon on the roll.

I just snipped out the long post you were referring to. I didn't change the actual words you wrote. If you didn't mean, "no one was scummy enough to be voted," (paraphrased), what did you mean?

[bvoigt]

So you were deliberately misquoting me then?

Vote bvoigt

Lets get this wagon on the roll.

I just snipped out the long post you were referring to. I didn't change the actual words you wrote. If you didn't mean, "no one was scummy enough to be voted," (paraphrased), what did you mean?

[bvoigt]

I'm almost ready to place a vote on Snake. There is a small chance that we are both town, but if so, then scum have already proven they're not going to try for a quickhammer.

I've already stated my case on Cookie, but for reference, here it is again. First of all, his ISO #7 is odd because he supports the Werewolf wagon, but doesn't vote for Werewolf. Instead, he votes Andrew for trying "to discourage the wagon for no apparent reason." Maybe he didn't want to be held responsible after Werewolf's flip. Then in his next post, he says, "You're willing to end the day? How is that not scummy?" and votes Shotty. Yet in ISO #13, he says, "I doubt we would see such a reckless hammer from scum." This isn't just a change of mind-- it's a clear contradiction of a specific point.

I haven't mentioned as much about Snake's play. Most of his posts have only been a line or two (which doesn't make him scummy, just more difficult to read). His first real content post is ISO #5, where he sort-of defends chkflip, and sort-of says he might be scum. He never really commits to a read, one way or the other, probably becuause he wants to be able to change his mind later. I also don't think his point about being misquoted makes much sense.

[bvoigt]

... someone remind me who bvoight thought was scum earlier?

Snake and rekirtS have been my top suspects all of toDay....

[bvoigt]

I've actually suspected both of them. When I FOS'ed rekirtS in ISO #29, I still approved of my FOS on Snake from ISO #27. I guess it wasn't very clear, though.

[bvoigt]

@Lindis: Hasn't there been roughly equal support for a lynch of me or a lynch of Snake?

[bvoigt]

VOTE: Draw

[bvoigt]

I could just imagine you in a QT laughing with your fellow scums about just how clever this whole plot is as it diverts attention away from you.

You know, this actually looks like a town-tell to me. Scum would know that they don't have daytalk. Hmm....

[bvoigt]

I'd say rekirtS is now my top suspect. As I've mentioned he just kind of hopped on the largest D1 bandwagon without providing any additional reasoning:

But onto the game, this is either really dumb scum play or some crazed gambit. Not sure how you keep denying this.

Unvote, Vote: Werewolf555

I just noticed a possible scumslip in ISO #17:

You would daykill someone and put us with 0 mislynches because hes annoying?

This post was referring to Shotty, his top suspect at the time. Yet he seems to be implying that Shotty would flip town. Plus, I was one of his strongest town reads on Day 2, but now he's changed his mind because I'm "on everybodies scumlist."

[bvoigt]

rekirtS: I don't see how the additional sentences make a difference.

You would daykill someone and put us with 0 mislynches because hes annoying? Not because you think hes scum or not? First trying to policy lynch at the beginning of the game and now you would just randomly take a shot as dayvig? Why are you trying to waste our days?

The first sentence still sounds like you

know

he'll be a mislynch.

[bvoigt]

I realize what you were trying to say, but I think you slipped and showed that you knew Shotty's alignment. Town, not knowing his alignment, would say: "You would daykill someone and

possibly

put us with 0 mislynches because hes annoying?"

[bvoigt]

@Lindis: I don't buy the replacing-out thing at all. It looks to me like CN made one last post in both of his games, then requested replacement in both of them. However, you do make some other good points.

From my point of view, there are six people who might be scum. andrew94 is hard to read, so I'd rather not lynch him until we (hopefully) get a scum flip, making it easier to analyze connections. Lindisfarne is probably my strongest town read at this point. He makes good cases with lots of analysis. And SnakePlissken may have town-telled when he said, "I could just imagine you in a QT laughing with your fellow scums about just how clever this whole plot is," even though they don't have daytalk.

Then, by process of elimination, we have Chaotic Neutrality, rekirtS, and themanhimself. Right? I'll go reread them now.

[bvoigt]

(I got sidetracked.)

rekirtS

In addition to the stuff I've already mentioned, his D1 play gives me a bad feeling. It's like he's trying too hard to appear town: calling out lurkers in ISO #1, requesting a vote count in ISO #3, and letting everyone know that Werewolf is at L-1 in ISO #6. Then on D2, rekirtS is suddenly afraid to place a vote. When I call him out for it, and also speculate about a Snake/rekirtS team, he votes Snake for (IMO) a silly reason.

Chaotic Neutrality

I don't really have much to add to Lindisfarne's wallposts, but here's a summary in case it was tl;dr. First, he was on both bandwagons, which isn't scummy by itself (I did the same thing, after all). However, the D1 wagon was led by yabbaguy, his first serious vote. And the D2 wagon was led by Lindisfarne (replacing Shotty), his first vote on D2. Basically, he followed experienced players onto the wagons despite being suspicious of those players.

CN also contradicts himself. In ISO #7, he votes Shotty and says the vote is subject to change, yet attacks Cookie strongly for not thinking Shotty is scum: "Are you really trying to argue he's TOWN because he hammered so ridiculously? I think that's the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard to keep VI scum in the game." Then, he argues that the same player slot is town in ISO #22: "He lead the lynch, quite boldly, something that scum wouldn't do." In other words, being bold was a scumtell for Shotty, but a towntell for Lindis?

silverbullet999/themanhimself

For whatever reason, I just can't get a read on this slot. I'd say the third mafioso is either TMH or Andrew.

[bvoigt]

I realize what you were trying to say, but I think you slipped and showed that you knew Shotty's alignment. Town, not knowing his alignment, would say: "You would daykill someone and

possibly

put us with 0 mislynches because hes annoying?"

Andrew didn't want to to shoot shotty because of his alignment, he wanted to shoot him because he was annoying. Therefore he would take us to 0 mislynches to get rid of someone who is merely annoying.

Sorry guys quite busy this weekend I'll comment more late sunday/monday.

Exactly. He would take us to 0 mislynches. How do you know that Shotty wouldn't flip scum?

[bvoigt]

VOTE: SnakePlissken

I've decided that his one towntell shouldn't overrule all the other scumtells (such as the possible quickhammer attempt).

[bvoigt]

@Snake: Andrew placed the second vote on someone; you placed the third vote on someone. What makes his vote different from yours?

[bvoigt]

Guys, we're about 30 hours from the deadline. It's time to get a vote on the table.

[bvoigt]

Bvoigt's play was (sorry) AWFUL.

FTFY. In my defense, I thought the scumteam was Snake/rekirtS/Nacho at the end of the day, but just ended up voting for the only townie out of the three. Congrats to the scumteam, though. You played very well.

Thanks for modding, Equinox! Overall, I think the setup is fairly balanced, but might favor scum a little. I think it would work better with 3 goons, 8 townies, and 1 doctor (who could get the town an extra mislynch to use).

BTW, I voted to keep playing. True, we were losing, but if scum are earning a victory, the town shouldn't take the easy way out.

[bvoigt]

A couple comments I forgot to make earlier: first of all, the werewolf lynch looks really silly in retrospect. And chkflip's self-hammer didn't singlehandedly cost us the game, but it did make it much more difficult for us to win. I sent this PM to Equinox during N2:

I hope this isn't out of line...but I feel that chkflip should be modkilled for that self-hammer. He made no effort to defend himself or at least scumhunt in his last post. Instead, he guaranteed that the day would end with a mislynch. I don't see how that is playing to win.

Also, I'd really appreciate some advice on how to get better at scumhunting.