Lucid Dreamers - Game Halted

[UncertainKitten]

If I die LL is scum.

Vote Katsuki

Knows who the scum are and won't even TELL us. CLEARLY SHE IS WORKING FOR THEM!

[UncertainKitten]

...Isn't...FUCKING Ks!

Unvote, Vote Kito Ari

I got confused :V.

[UncertainKitten]

Also, I wasn't joking.

[UncertainKitten]

I mean about LL.

[UncertainKitten]

Too dumb to read the game, malthusis?

[UncertainKitten]

I think it's fairly obvious to anyone reading that I meant to. It would have been rather illogical to accuse Katsuki of knowing who the scum are and not telling us.

So, I wonder just how sincere you're being ^-^.

[UncertainKitten]

By voting the mod and calling someone stupid? More or less. By saying I'll die if someone is scum? Not usually. But an insurance is always good.

[UncertainKitten]

I actually see myko's logic. Not sure if I agree cause it's kinda...not mafia if you're just lol no lynch. I'd rather play the day out, personally, even if it's suboptimal.

[UncertainKitten]

Lemme put it this way.

I did not take a vigging power

That means NO ONE has an excuse to vig people. If I ain't vigging that's basically the end of the subject.

[UncertainKitten]

What the fuck just happened? Why did Fate let up on Katsuki again?

[UncertainKitten]

So, Fate, who's scum with Hayldra?

And I'll remind you that I desire bullets for bullets, as in another game.

I'm mostly caught up.

@Katsuki: So, outside of the scathing bitchiness, do you have anything to add?

@LL: Thanks for the explanation.

@gandalf: Hilarious.

@Fate: I would have shot him but I had better things to do.

[UncertainKitten]

I have my reasons~

Speaking of reasons, I do think I want them. From you. From gandalf. From Fate.

[UncertainKitten]

And is that your ~*~only~*~ reason Katsuki? Because I find it fun to guess what Fate is thinking as well. It makes him be clearer.

[UncertainKitten]

I'll point out, dear Fate, that even if I was scum in that game, I still firmly believe in getting you to speak reasonably. And I refuse to listen to a ye gods damned thing you say until you do.

The fact you've only selected one scum at this juncture is impressively lackluster, Fate.

[UncertainKitten]

Oh, so you propose a policy lynch ^-^?

Good to know, good to know~

[UncertainKitten]

Oh, good.

Well, here's the thing. Katsuki is probably town at this point. But really far from the sharpest knife in the drawer. If certain other players weren't around, I'd shoot her to get her out of the way.

That's what I make of it, Fate.

[UncertainKitten]

(reasoning is that if I'm going to test my vote, it'll be on someone who is expendable to town)

Uh huh. So...you'll do the same to Katsuki that she'd do to you?

Interesting.

@Fate: I haven't expressed any scum reads yet ^-^.

[UncertainKitten]

@Fate: LL plays a lot like I do. At least she did in Higurashi. She reminds me of myself. A little less experienced perhaps, but I don't think she's as bad as everyone claims.

@Lilu: Fate is getting closer to scum but not for the reason you stated.

@LL: You can, actually. There's a bit of scum intent going around, if you know where to look.

Also, I'll point out that was a Haylen post. The one that everyone is jumping on her for.

[UncertainKitten]

You know Haylen, that's not helping. I generally give you the BotD due to [ONGOING] experience, but you're stretching it.

[UncertainKitten]

Unfortunately you've missed the mark in every way possible

Sorry.

[UncertainKitten]

I'm not disagreeing that he may be scum. I'm disagreeing that your points have any relevance to that fact.

And Fate demonstrates why.

[UncertainKitten]

I'd have to read it myself. The trouble is I have the same experience with her as town. Different player, but the same tactics.

[UncertainKitten]

@Kat: How do you mean that?

To be fair I died N1 in that game. You can't expect my reads to be accurate when I'm not actively playing .

Still weak Haylen.

Anyway, LLD is competent as an SK, at the least .

[UncertainKitten]

Well, no, I didn't say that. I said "I am infinitely more useful than you will ever be, zwet". I actually know how to spell.

Anyway, I was going to die anyway, since I was a bodyguard and protected the only other logical kill.

Not a whole bunch I could do really ^-^.

Anyway:

@Kat: How do you mean that?

You failed to answer this. "That" refers to me and LL being related.

[UncertainKitten]

You still haven't answered my question.

How do you mean related?

[UncertainKitten]

Not at all. But she'd make a good sister~

[UncertainKitten]

@myko: And I presume you're not going to explain anything either, are you myko?

I love how no one in this game has any fucking idea how to play mafia.

[UncertainKitten]

Then basically you're just really stupid Myko. And your meta of me is outdated.

Fate's not playing as he normally would. THIS BUGS ME.

As a matter of fact,

Unvote, Vote Fate

Should have done that awhile ago, really.

@SC: He doesn't have enough scum caught by page 8. I don't buy this as town Fate.

[UncertainKitten]

EBWOP: Your THEORIES are stupid, rather. You, I'm sure, are an intelligent individual.

[UncertainKitten]

Oh, to further elaborate: Myko is basically saying only scum would target Fate which is, in a word, FATUOUS!

[UncertainKitten]

You absolutely misinterpretted what I meant about LL. Please don't conjecture things that aren't true. Reread what I said and tell me where I AT ALL said that LL would nightkill me if she was scum?

Fatuous.

You're overthinking the vig thing. I was referring to the fact that when I have a choice I usually choose vig, and I dayvig within the first five pages. I chose not to this time because I wanted to have an actually interesting game where everyone didn't die.

Fatuous.

I corrected the ad hom, but I can't help it if people say stupid shit. You know, like you ENTIRE FUCKING BULLSHITDOM on me.

You are a truly fatuous woman.

Oh, right, hiding things. Some things are meant to be hidden until a GOOD theory can be formed. Unlike the majority of people in this game, I don't just shoot off my fucking mouth without knowing jack shit.

I darent hazard a read based on 3 posts.

OMG LOOK SHE'S HIDING THINGS FROM THE TOWWWWWWN SCUMMMY!!!!!!!!!11111

Hayldra, until you can ACTUALLY USE REAL FACTS THAT EXIST IN THIS GAME, I don't want to see another fucking post out of you.

[UncertainKitten]

I have a meta on him, a recent one. But a weak one as it's one game. While he correctly caught me as scum at first, I pretty successfully deflected him from that for much of the game. I can handle Fate without getting him lynched. Your theory is silly.

[UncertainKitten]

Uh huh.

You claim this now but you dropped me for a long time. Don't try to make shit up.

Now then, do you have a case on me? Because right now it's looking a lot like you're voting me for having the DARING to vote you. And that's not a very town thing to do, now is it?

I do not know Hayldra's alignment. I DO know that she's more likely to put this...misguided effort into the game as town. It's just IMMINENTLY FRUSTRATING in how terribly wrong it is.

Anyway, as for nailing scum, that actually doesn't matter to me. What matters is I expected three names and you provided one. Your views are mutable. But I feel you would have started out a lot stronger if you were town.

[UncertainKitten]

Fate's deduced a lot. The fact he comes to the conclusion I'm scum further indicates he's trying to frame me.

I'd suggest that everyone take a look at his interpretation of the facts, as well as the facts themselves. And make your own conclusion, because it's fairly damned obvious what's going on here, and Fate's is NOT so stupid as to not be noticing it.

Confirm Vote: Fate

[UncertainKitten]

As for why I'm not attacking LLD's attackers, it's mostly because they're votes are stupidity motivated, not scum motivated. They haven't seriously started playing.

[UncertainKitten]

You were in Malt's game? Because I certainly don't recall that. Further, it's an extremely old meta if you WERE.

As for the rest...

*pat pat*
It's okay Fate.

[UncertainKitten]

Oh shit things just got real. Using MY OWN TECHNIQUE AGAINST ME? I'm SHOCKED :O.

How long ago was that game, again, Fate?

[UncertainKitten]

Oh? You had points? Because I don't think I actually noticed them.

Your main point is a connection between me and LLD. The rest is just the ragefluff you specialize in to get people into pointless fights. I'm not taking the bait.

I think that town Fate would have thought about that connection a lot more rather than just Rageballing it into me being scum. Hence why I'm fairly sure you're just trying to do some nice window dressing and hope I get lynched.

@LLD: Hayldra is a little more likely to be town just because she's throwing so much :effort: at things. Scum usually don't bother as much. This tell does, however, become weaker with the fact she was under pressure, which forces a response. Regardless, I need her to post a bit more before I discern her intent.

And do you really want scum to start leading the town, LLD?

[UncertainKitten]

Ah, that's hilarious. Because I'm usually passive in early game, waiting for someone to post with scum intent. I'll also note my stated reasons may not have been all of them ^-^.

[UncertainKitten]

You aren't getting me lynched

Fate needs to be lynched before the end of the game.

Fate is likely to be scum given the amount of fluff in his rage balls, in addition to the fact that his main point has more pro town explanations than scummy ones. And he knows this.

I have a general idea of what Town Fate would do because I have a general idea of what a good townie would WANT to do.

I merely use my extremely weak meta to confirm my feelings on the matter. I could throw it out and still have solid points against Fate

This is far more than Fate has against me

Ah, cut by Fate: Do you mind if I copy something chamber sent me? It should explain a lot ^-^.

And no, you really haven't been trying to find scum. You've been trying to find easy targets. Anyway, I suppose I can try to ISO you. A bit silly but you insist.

[UncertainKitten]

unvote

I was incorrect. I'm not going to state why.

You are also incorrect, but that's beside the point. You're still not getting me lynched.

And I don't want LL lynched either. Are you saying that I should defend another player directly?

Anyway, I need to reread the game.

[UncertainKitten]

Alright, if you must know scum you wouldn't ask the mod if the scum had daytalk. Not publicly. It's possible you were trying to be tricky but I highly doubt it. Congratulations on being soft confirmed, try not to get NK'd. Do recall I ISO'd you right before I changed my mind. There are a few other things that help, though. Do you want to know those too?

Anyway, LLD is not getting lynched. You would be unwise to continue asking.

Now, next post will be the results of my reread in Stream of consciousness format. I'll then post a tl;dr.

[UncertainKitten]

This bugs me, from SD.

Hmm...I just realized the scum have craft. This makes me a little more wary of this. But just a little.

This bugs me a little, from Fate. He knows they do. That said it was also in the process of backing off Katsuki for good reasons.

This alone is a pretty good reason to vote gandalf ^-^

Vote Gandalf

I didn't see it before, but this alone is a good reason to vote Katsuki.

HoS: Katsuki

The fact she waited until after someone voted LLD and got away with it is very interesting.

Katsuki: Then why didn't you vote LLD earlier?

This is not very good from Hayldra. Like, it's even worse in the big picture.

It makes things a lot easier to just ignore someone correctly accusing you before you've fully answered any questions they may ask.

Fate, you never DID pull that meta.

Hayldra: You won't like it. Why are you asking me to save your ass?

This is yet another reason to vote Katsuki What do you think of Hayldra?

@Leiskyrie: Do you have any opinions on Fate, UK, and Hayldra?

Myko is town.

This is a reason to vote Shadow Dancer

Yes, I'm aware at this point I have too many scum.

Then it's the Fate me fight which has nothing of interest.

Now, to organize this.

[UncertainKitten]

Gandalf: Scum or an idiot. I haven't decided which but it felt a lot like he was taking advantage of the growing tide against LL. Admittedly, I'm going to change my vote to Katsuki in this post because Katsuki's later posts made her a better candidate.

Gandalf

: When you return I would like it if you told us why LLD is scum, and what you make of the Fate/UK fight.

Katsuki:

Where to begin? She has a far stronger opportunistic vibe regarding LL. The fact that she thinks that LL would be more useful alive to the scum, but

DOES NOT VOTE HER UNTIL SOMEONE ELSE DOES

says a LOT about what she's thinking. Add to that the fact she has had NO other opinions besides LL being a sub par player, and you have scum.

Unvote, Vote Katsuki

Shadow Dancer:

: Only two posts, but both are terrible. The first one reads a lot like someone trying to look pro town by making things ~*~serious~*~ without actually contributing anything of value, or even making an effort to force his opinion about the joking at all. It reads as someone who wants to avoid being seen. The second post is a cop out, quite simply. I'm not sure if you all realize this, but deadline is VERY SHORT. His convenient V/LA (Which appears to be for not wanting to read the game), has him gone for the rest of the day.

Hayldra:

This is my weakest scum read, and only applies if I'm wrong about one of the others (obviously). But, basically, her posts before her pressure provided ISOs read a lot like she wanted to avoid a fight with Fate, before satisfactorily answering anything. She also knows I have a tendency to buddy my out of game friends, so I feel she might have been trying to utilize that. Why she's my weakest read is a lot of the anti-town things she's done are...things I've recently seen her do as town. She THINKS differently which makes it harder to get into her intent.

Fate, do you have any questions for me that need answering?

[UncertainKitten]

EBWOP: Katsuki is at L-4.

[UncertainKitten]

By missed Katsuki's vote, I mean I missed the significance of it.

Why are you unvoting me, Fate?

[UncertainKitten]

What changed your mind? The fact that you just realized he hadn't voted her until someone else had?

Precisely. I wasn't looking at the big picture at all. I've found that usually those who push policy lynches are town. It's sticking your neck out a fair bit. But...that just doesn't WORK with the rest of Katsuki's posts.

[UncertainKitten]

Then what about Katsuki's lack of content? And even if Katsuki started the push on that page, he had expressed sentiments against LL for awhile. So early in the game, why WOULDN'T he vote LL? He had NO solid reads at that point, so an LL vote would have been natural. But if he was thinking about "how he looks", then waiting for a vote on LL to make it viable looks a bit scummier.

I realize he said "that reminds me" but I don't think that justifies it.

Anyway, your Hayldra meta is missing a lot of the effort she's been showing in this game. That said, she HADN'T until you pressured her, and you offered the meta BEFORE she did that.

Anyway, aren't you afraid I'll slip through your grasp again and kill you before you bring me up?

[UncertainKitten]

I agree her play is anti town. And if I'm being perfectly honest? I'll support her lynch if I can't get one of my more solid candidates lynched. 25% raw probability is pretty decent to lynch someone with.

And the great Fate can't get me lynched? Whatever could be stopping you? You know you have a lot of carry with people ^-^.

Regardless, it's posts along that vein that also make me feel you have town intent. I got clouded by one thing and let myself blow it out of proportion.

[UncertainKitten]

Brakes, myko. Brakes. I see that error too fucking often to let it pass.

[UncertainKitten]

I dunno, there are still a few questions I want answered before we no lynch.

Anyway, I apologize for that, I didn't realize English was a third language for you. Basically I do transcription review work, reviewing transcriptions done by people with English as their FIRST language, though sometimes you really gotta wonder. It's of insurance interviews, including auto insurance, so breaks/brakes is seen annoyingly often.

[UncertainKitten]

Hmm.

[UncertainKitten]

Hey, Parama, got all that in concise speak? Quote stripes give me a headache.

[UncertainKitten]

@Parama: I mean can you express what's wrong with the players you accuse without quote stripes?

Just a few sentences, possibly links but even post numbers will do. Hell, maybe not even those, just a basic outline of what I'm looking for.

[UncertainKitten]

I accept Parama's points, but disagree with most of them. Regardless, I think he's just misguided at this juncture.

[UncertainKitten]

No problem ^-^. I do my best.

[UncertainKitten]

@Parama: Why did Fate scum ask about scum daytalk?

[UncertainKitten]

Ah, WIFOM.

That's one buzzword mentioned.

By any chance have you used OMGUS yet?

[UncertainKitten]

I would invite you, myko, to consider the fact that Craft and another ability cannot be used at the same time, so the game IS a bit different from normal Lucid Dreamers.

I'm not sure if this necessarily changes the accuracy of what you're saying, but I feel it's an important distinction to mention.

[UncertainKitten]

you know what, screw the optimal strategy.

vote SC

.

This is not happy making.

Anyway, no comment on my observation? (Or is it already covered? I have a bad habit of missing things)

@Fate: Any change in myko opinion due to recent vote changes?

@Fate: Not sure I understand.

[UncertainKitten]

SC! Opinions on people not named Mykonian!

[UncertainKitten]

Also SC, your ISO sucks. You're very good at sitting in the background and doing absolutely nothing of worth. If you would, could you link a couple of your recent games, one as town, one as scum? I'm not sure if it will help me a whole lot but I get the impression that you're passive in different ways as scum and town, and this does not look like townie passiveness.

[UncertainKitten]

You're not very defensive in the town game. You are here. Why?

You know what else I notice in your town game that's missing here? Constant reads. Constant attacks. Constant questions. Right out of the gate.

Trouble is, you also aren't acting much like your scum game either. Closer to it than you are your town game, so I'm probably going to vote you after some crosschecking, but something to note.

[UncertainKitten]

I take that back. Your ISO reads quite similar to the scum game.

Though honestly, I should have just voted you on scum intent alone and ignored meta. Lemme check votes so I don't do something stupid.

[UncertainKitten]

Unvote, Vote SC

L-3.

[UncertainKitten]

No, SC, you haven't done anything townie at all. You were ACTIVELY TRYING TO FIND SCUM in your town game. You're coasting here.

@Parama: Alright, disregard all meta and READ HIS FUCKING ISO.

TELL ME WHERE THE FUCK THE TOWN INTENT IS, THEN SHUT THE FUCK UP, SIT DOWN, AND VOTE FUCKING STRANGERCOUG!!!

YOU DON'T NEED FUCKING META TO SEE SC IS SCUM. IT JUST SHOWED THAT HE HAD NO FUCKING EXCUSE.

*ahem*

(I also enjoy how you're trying to derail things because "OH NOES META!" Because OBVIOUSLY meta can never be used as a tool.)

Also, you're telling me obvious fucking scum intent, coasting, and overall lack of proactivity aren't good reasons to attack SC?

Wow, I wish I were as good at mafia as YOU are, Parama. Man, how will I EVER catch scum by calling people out on doing things that help the scum more than they help the town. Fuck, I've clearly got it all wrong!

[UncertainKitten]

Gunning after myko? Give me a break! You didn't do jack shit with him til he got on your case. Then you got into a pointless argument with him and haven't done jack shit since! You got thrust into the spotlight and *YOU DON'T LIKE IT*.

@Parama: Oh, boy, I bet you're going to support that argument too! Oh wait, YOU CAN'T!

I'll say it one more time.

Step 1: READ SC'S FUCKING ISO
Step 2: TELL ME WHERE THE FUCK SC'S TOWN INTENT IS
Step 3: FAIL AT STEP TWO, AND SHUT THE FUCK UP.
Step 3: SIT YOUR ASS DOWN.
Step 4: VOTE SC. (You've already done this...I think, I'm not sure if your backwards thing counts)
Step 5: LYNCH SCUM
Step 6: ???
Step 7: PROFIT!

Do you need a map, or are you going to continue acting like you only apply 3 brain cells to the game of mafia?

[UncertainKitten]

EBWOP: In retrospect that last line hardly makes any sense. BUT I DON'T CARE!!!

Parama: Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, right ^-^;

Forgot about that, actually.

Ok, omit step 4, but do the rest. Because you won't find SC with town intent.

Also, tell me what these ~*~magical logical fallacies~*~ are. Because they don't actually exist.

[UncertainKitten]

Well, all that's arguable but it'd be pointless to do so.

So, you disagree with the SC lynch but refuse to prove he's town. How interesting. I wonder why you have such a vested interest~

[UncertainKitten]

I also note you still haven't pointed out the logical fallacies you accuse me of. How interesting that that remains an unsupported claim .

[UncertainKitten]

@Parama: So you're ignoring the fact that the meta business was mostly to check my initial read to make sure he didn't ALWAYS do this, right? I do believe you've gravely misunderstood my accusations against him, probably willfully because you like getting into fights. I'm done with you. When you post something relevant we can talk again.

Also SC, you make me laugh. The only think you've cracked is some terrible jokes about doing anything townie this game.

Ok. So essentially people can never be wrong or say stupid things without being scum? How interesting, because I'm pretty sure I could indict you on being misguided as well if I wanted to waste time. INTENT is what matters, not "herp derp he says dat someting is a tell dat isn't and dat makes him scum."

Alright, let's play this game. How is mykonian thinking only of himself? Provide examples.

[UncertainKitten]

Yes, I recall you threatening. You also had power and confirmation to back it up. You don't here.

But no, Parama's right, meta is stupid and distracting.

I still don't see an attitude that only indicates he's thinking of himself.

Oh, hey Parama, you noticed the exact same things I did ^-^.

I just didn't throw them all out in (in)convenient quote format since I figured the ISO spoke for itself.

Well, the early passiveness anyway.

[UncertainKitten]

Wasn't thinking. Mea culpa.

I thought perhaps it would matter what he's done in the past because I thought I recalled SC being a bit passive, but you're right that it probably wouldn't have changed my mind. All that really matters is the scum intent in *this* game. And intent is something that lies past meta.

[UncertainKitten]

Yes, I recall you threatening. You also had power and confirmation to back it up. You don't here.

So? You still know that I've threatened stuff as town.

And? It's not even relevant to my case. Why are you trying to confuse the issue?

[UncertainKitten]

Uh huh.

And I'm going to guess you don't have reasoning, because that would be :effort:

Something you've lacked this entire game ^-^.

[UncertainKitten]

Any other suspects, myko?

[UncertainKitten]

I have no idea what you're even arguing anymore. The threatening thing wasn't a great point, and it's not one I used. You're using it to distract from the issue of the fact you've been passively doing NOTHING until myko called you out.

[UncertainKitten]

The case on Fate was me being a complete moron. After that I feel I started to get significantly better.

Nn...fine, congratulations on making your first contentful post all game. Glad it only took you 15 pages. Some people still haven't gotten around to it.

[UncertainKitten]

Um, Kito, I voted SC.

Fix'd

[UncertainKitten]

After unvoting and voting Fate, and unvoting Fate again.

[UncertainKitten]

My latest vote

[UncertainKitten]

You could read the game and be happy it's not you. But that would take :effort:, wouldn't it?

@Lei: Really? But I thought Lady Lambdadelta was scummy.

You are not giving me good vibes.

Anyway,

THAT IS L-1!!

[UncertainKitten]

EBWOP: SC should probably claim his craft. Why no, this DOESN'T effect the fact we lynch him. But on the off chance he's town there might be valuable information, depending on how he handled things.

[UncertainKitten]

EBWOP2: (If I'm missing something please speak up. I don't play marathon LD often, but I've played similar stuff, and IIRC the general feeling was to claim and hope the information is useful after you die)

@Lei: You didn't really, actually. Admittedly, you DID at least mention SC in the post before you voted. But, all you specifically said was you wanted a vote count before you voted, and it read more like you planned to vote LLD.

Regardless, it's not as bad as I initially thought it was.

[UncertainKitten]

Just cop? No actions yet?

[UncertainKitten]

Fate's not scum. I find it interesting you're trying to derail the lynch, Parama. SC's cop claim is overall unimpressive.

[UncertainKitten]

I just *HATE* to rush you all, but could we please get a hammer now?

I don't know about ~*~you~*~, but this:

Deadline is on January 3rd, 4:00 PM Central Time.

Makes me just a WEE bit nervous ^-^.

SPEAKING OF WHICH!

How did this happen, when:

8) Day one will last 3 weeks. All other days will last 2 weeks.

Who fucked with the deadline!

[UncertainKitten]

Good shot, whoever did that!

Vote StrangerCoug

[UncertainKitten]

Don't forget, 6 to lynch now instead of seven. SC is at L-3 or L-4. Not sure if Parama has a vote or not. It seems kinda arbitrary for it to work "Because you vote backwards"

[UncertainKitten]

@LL: I refuse to read /jp/ til the episode 8 English patch comes out. Or read any spoilers.

Also, that's only L-2 or 3, LL. Vote count reset.

@Kito: Is that VC correct? It only has two votes on SC but three names

[UncertainKitten]

Modnote: Not original post, but could be considered game related content.

[UncertainKitten]

Yeah, I was hoping you'd figure it out when Katsuki died. She did the same exact craft I did except she didn't make it a day power.

Ah well. I would have died to Fate had I lived through the night.

Why'd you guys kill me anyway ?

[UncertainKitten]

I'll /in for an LD redux myself. See if I can come up with something else clever. Actually, I think I DID have an idea~

(At least I caught SD :V. Too bad I didn't push him.)

[UncertainKitten]

I should totes just do the same exact same .

And yeah, we did pretty well. I could have probably not been so blatantly obviously connected to you, but I figured it would turn out ok.

[UncertainKitten]

Yeah, I was hoping you'd figure it out when Katsuki died. She did the same exact craft I did except she didn't make it a day power.

Ah well. I would have died to Fate had I lived through the night.

Why'd you guys kill me anyway ?

FEITO ANSWER PL0X!!!

[UncertainKitten]

Really? Despite me saying directly I didn't take a vig, and being obviously connected to LLD?