Open 274: Game Over!

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

/confirm

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Vote: Hoopla

Vote: Hoopla

Vote: Hoopla

Vote: Hoopla

Vote: Hoopla

Vote: Hoopla

Vote: Hoopla

Vote: Hoopla

Vote: Hoopla

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Hoopla has made this game very difficult for town. She did that because she's scum.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

DMG: Why is Hoopla scum? What has she done to make "this game very difficult for town"?

I might be alone here but apart from this question I have not the first clue of what to do. And that's Hoopla's fault. That's also why she's scum.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

I have not the first clue of what to do. And that's Hoopla's fault.

DMG, why is that her fault? What is your experience of playing mafia before, have you played on forums, in real life?

Its Hoopla's fault because she's the one that begun oddly which has put me out of sorts. I've played Mafia before on forums, yes.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

I might be alone here but apart from this question I have not the first clue of what to do. And that's Hoopla's fault. That's also why she's scum.

Its Hoopla's fault because she's the one that begun oddly which has put me out of sorts. I've played Mafia before on forums, yes.

This is really lame. I don't see how Hoopla can possibly be sabotaging your ability to play. This sounds like just an excuse to park your vote somewhere and then not do anything else because the person you're voting for has somehow caused you to be unable to do anything else. Frankly if you're confused then it's your fault, you need to read and understand the game. It's not Hoopla's fault.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

I've played a lot of games and never been as confused as I am now. I can't be the problem because otherwise I would have been equally confused in tyhose games.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

I might be alone here but apart from this question I have not the first clue of what to do. And that's Hoopla's fault. That's also why she's scum.

I've played a lot of games and never been as confused as I am now. I can't be the problem because otherwise I would have been equally confused in tyhose games.

This is super-weak. My theory: DMG is town in his other games and scum here, and trying to cover up the fact that he doesn't know how to pretend to scumhunt when he's scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Da_Mafia_Godfather

I am hunting for scum and analysing people's posts but because of Hoopla's actions I can't get a general feel for the game (for example because the game didn't begin in an orderly fashion with everybody making a couple of posts on page 1 I keep on forgetting that Stefunny and CA are in this game which throws my whole analysis and thinking out of whack.)

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

I am hunting for scum and analysing people's posts but because of Hoopla's actions I can't get a general feel for the game (for example because the game didn't begin in an orderly fashion with everybody making a couple of posts on page 1 I keep on forgetting that Stefunny and CA are in this game which throws my whole analysis and thinking out of whack.)

Are you serious? How often do mafia games follow the expected pattern?

Almost always

Unusual things happen, just do your best to adapt and figure it out. You're a mafia player - it's what you need to do.

That's what I'm doing. I am one of the few players who is voting scum after all.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

You're voting me because you think the game is confusing.

No I'm voting you because you purposely confused me.

Have you been scum before? If so, can you link to the game?

I haven't got a completed game.

How is it Hoopla's fault if you're forgetting that certain people are, you know, in the game?

This is a seven player game. I'm forgetting them because everyone didn't begin the game on equal footing. Hoopla took pains to make it so that when day begun this was "The Hoopla Show" and as such the only people I can recall are those that were players in The Hoopla Show.

Can you identify what Hoopla did to confuse you, and why it confused you?

Her distracting pre-game play meaning the day begun partway through the day only that is (of course) impossible.

How is this a failure on Hoopla's part and not your own?

If it was me then I'd be confused in my other game. I might be the only person who can fall for Hoopla's trick. That doesn't change the fact that it was Hoopla's trick.

You raised the idea that, because you did not have this problem in other games, then it must be a result of Hoopla's actions. However, if that is so, then why does no one else seem confused?

Honestly I haven't seen CA and Stefunny play as well as I'd expect from other games (CA especially) so I don't really agree with your premise.

How do you know it was Hoopla and not someone else who confused you?

Well I don't know but the instigator, the one who put the most effort in and the one that gloated about the confusion caused "You can't vote me the game hasn't started" (not an exact quote) was Hoopla.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Eh, when did I say I didn't have any reads? Scum is Hoopla and Adulskel/CA.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

1. He helped Hoopla with her anti-town play.
2. Process of Elimination
3. Gut (he's too busy clarifying things so nobody can make a bad case on him.)

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

When did I say I couldn't get reads on people?

And I don't understand how Ald helped Hoopla with any anti-town play. All I can see is that Ald also questioned Hoopla's timing and then called

YOU

out on some questionable play regarding your vote.

Don't be deliberately obtuse, are you seriously arguing that Adulskey didn't make 14/15 posts before the game had begun (AKA helping Hoopla with her deliberate anti-town play)? Can you honestly say that with a straight face?

Sincxe I don't want to waste my vote, I'll.

Vote: CA

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Why is it anti-town to make posts before the game has 'begun'?

Because it has the chance to confuse people.

And if you have reads, in what way are you/were you ever confused?

I'm having to do a lot more rereads and ISOs than I'm used to. I can't remember anything about this game when I'm not on the thread.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Why is it anti-town to make posts before the game has 'begun'?

Because it has the chance to confuse people.

I still don't follow the cause-effect here. Why is posting in pregame any more confusing that waiting and posting after? People will have already received their roles; reads can be made. This is craplogic as far as I can tell.

People playing to the town win condition will not post a lot in pre-game because you're wasting what is a very useful part of the game (to look back on once you've got some flips) spamming. Therefore since you've only got the scum (and idiots) posting pre-game you've got the scum (and idiots) having a monopoly on the thread. Scum (and idiots) having a monopoly over the thread is clearly bad for the town.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Hoopla; I've read a lot of games. Three pages before the game begun does not happen in seven player gamers with any regularity.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Alduskel: I'm hoping that by ISOing enough I'll remember it eventually.

Do you really think Hoopla went into this game thinking, "If I post a lot pre-game, that will cause other players to not remember other players who didn't participate in the discussion!"?

I'm not psychic and I doubt Hoopla is either. Hoopla's actions were anti-town (

I

know that for a fact. I think Hoopla could have guessed that it would hurt town somehow even if she didn't know the specifics.

Well of Stefunny posts #1 and #2 contain excuses for not contributing as well as she could, 3 is a statement of the obvious, 4 is an agreement that doesn't go anywhere and I may be bias here but Stef's attempts in #5 to make my suspicion of Hoopla sound like some sort of pseudo-RVS shows a lack of knowledge about the chronology of this game.

Ald: Other than the benefits of "starting the game quickly" (which has no benefits just to clarify) what pro-town motive can you prescribe to Hoopla's pre-game play?

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Stef;

I

know that its anti-town because its made me play worse for sure. Its possible that I got confused with somebody else, I remember being confused when I saw your join date.

I can actually agree with the back up claim. We've got quite a bit of day 1 and as such we'll be able to look at the way people have played with the confirmed inocent.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

@DMG: Starting the game earlier is better because then there is more time to talk. And talking is almost always pro-Town, the one exception being that if you are talking so much that other players are unable to keep up then that is anti-Town.

Oooh, 24 hours. That sure counts for a lot.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

I'm sorry but I completely and clearly explained my suspicion of you. You can add that complete mis-rep as a fourth post.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Can you quote your response.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

1. It confused me.
2. Town reads.
3, Its being over careful. More careful than how town would post.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

And I'd like to comment on the "clarifying" debate. I don't think scum would be going above and beyond to clarify.

Are you an idiot. This is the most basic of mafia theory.

1. Scum are more careful.
2. Careful clarification is a symptom of being careful.
3. Scum are more likely to engage in careful clarification.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Not back up.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

1. It confused me.
2. Town reads.
3, Its being over careful. More careful than how town would post.

1. We've been over this a billion times and no one ever convinces anyone else.
2. Yeah, well where the hell did you get those town reads? You can't just say that I look less town than other people without explaining why I look less town.
3. I quest for information. That is very typical town behavior. If I seem overly careful then I think it's more logical to think that that's just my playstyle. Feel free to meta me, I have a wiki entry.

And I am not the backup.

1. Then stop asking questions where you know I'll give that as an answer.
2. Reading. I'm giving my thought processes. I'm not even voting you. When I'll do that I'll explain how Fenchurch and Andrew are clearly looking for the best way to help town in each of their posts.
3. I'll do that now.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Iso'd you in Open 209, I didn't see a single clarification.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Don't bullshit me DMG, in Open 209 I clearly asking for clarification in the follow posts (not quoted so as not to clutter the thread):
Iso 1 (2 times)
Iso 10
Iso 16 (2 times)
Iso 18
Iso 19
Iso 24
Iso 30
Iso 33
Iso 35
Iso 36
Iso 60 (4 times)
Iso 67
Iso 69
Iso 76
Iso 91

All of those posts are ones where I sought to clarify, which I defined here as "asking for an explanation."
Are you blind?

You defined it wrong. I defined clarify as being like

You just sort of joked around without kicking up dust (for the record, Hoopla joked around and kicked up dust)

(the bit in brackets)

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

DMG do you think scum is more likely to try to clarify, or more likely to try and confuse? Because

1. Scum are more careful.
2. Careful clarification is a symptom of being careful.
3. Scum are more likely to engage in careful clarification.

and

No I'm voting you because you purposely confused me.

are sort of contradictory. I understand these were directed at two different people, but you are using reasoning that contradicts itself for each of your scum reads. Please explain (or clarify )

Scum clarify not to prevent confusion but to prevent them from being called up for a scum tell.

Also, out of curiosity, how come your vote is still on CA?

If I understand what you're implying: Ald hasn't become more scummy in my eyes recently I've just had to explain my suspicions of him a bunch of times. CA still pips (due to quite a few town tells from Ald and none from CA) Ald in the scummy stakes.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Is process of elimination your reasoning for voting CA?

Essentially.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Do you think your reasoning for voting CA is stronger or weaker than your reasoning for being suspicious of Hoopla?

Weaker (even if you exclude the pre-game chatter Hoopla has done absolutely nothing to lead me to think she's town) but you have to pick your battles.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

That was me.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Huh.


Also:

You defined it wrong. I defined clarify as being like

You just sort of joked around without kicking up dust (for the record, Hoopla joked around and kicked up dust)

(the bit in brackets)

I didn't understand what you meant by this originally either. I realise now you were giving it as an

example

of where Ald clarifies, but it originally looked like you meant that the bit in brackets was equivalent to a definition of what clarification means.

I thought it was pretty clear what I was sayying but meh. I hope its clear that I'm not trying to suggest that misattribution was some sort of ingenius scum gambit.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Oh, that was me being dumb and not remembering stuff either.

So since I've been misunderstanding your case for I don't know how long now I'll start over in responding to it.

For starters, quoting where I've been clarifying would be nice. For the one instance you quoted, I was drawing up a contrast between Hoopla (who some thought was scummy) and ConfidAnon. I will freely admit that I foresaw possible questioning about Hoopla vs. ConfidAnon and preemptively answered a hypothetical question. Could the part in parentheses have been omitted? Sure. I don't think it's scummy, given that if someone had questioned me about it then I would have given the same answer, only later.

Yes but general mafia theory would suggest that town would be less likely to focus on their post looking for hypothetical questions that need to pre-empted.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

@DMG: Sorry to bring it up again, but were you honestly confused by Hoopla's game opening, or just felt that it was intended to be anti-town?

It honestly took me out of the game by a lot. I've cemented now but at the time I was honestly confused.

Does the fact that she used a similar opening in a game where she was town have any bearing on your opinion?

It would make my original point null but Hoopla would still be the scummiest player (lots of posts, not a single one that gives me a town read.)

Hoopla: Thoughts on Ald?

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Does the fact that she used a similar opening in a game where she was town have any bearing on your opinion?

It would make my original point null but Hoopla would still be the scummiest player (lots of posts, not a single one that gives me a town read.)

Hoopla: Thoughts on Ald?

Oh, didn't know you were determining my alignment based on whether I thought you were town or not. I'll make sure to do that next game.

It would make my original point null but Hoopla would still be the scummiest player (lots of posts, not a single one that has a town tell in it.)

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

....
why alt then

People have been treating me differently in games. I wanted to see if it was due to meta or because I had begun to play differently.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

no. empking i meant that you are known aka pro aka good player aka WILL NOT BE CONFUSED BY HOOPLA

I think the fact that I am "pro" works out of my favour. I'm a creature of habit, in small open games I like (and am used to) to get acquainted with everyone (and their avatars, play style ect) in the RVS.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Empking, why is me supposedly not dropping town tells suspcious?

Because town (if they had posted as much as yourself) would've dopped a town tell. Its as simple as that.

Or at least, why is it any more suspicious than other players you have a neutral read on?

Because CA hasn't posted enough game content to say "yeah, he should've dropped a town tell by now"

Who are your current town reads?

Confirmed: Stef
Almost Certain: Andrew, Fenchurch
Probably (though I'd still lynch him at deadline): Ald

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Would our non-voters mind voting so we know where we stand? Actually just so it clear where I atually stand.

Unvote

Vote: Hoopla

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

At this point in the game I don't even start looking at "town tells" I think they are easily faked D1 and usually are scum TRYING to look town.

Because town (if they had posted as much as yourself) would've dropped a town tell. Its as simple as that.

Can you explain what you mean by a "town tell"? I know it seems obvious, but how many town tells aren't easily imitated by scum?

I've been trying to figure out how I feel about CAs disappearance. I have two thoughts about why it happened the way it did: Either he got bored because he had a role that he didn't prefer or he was scum and realized that his poor posting and absence was going to make it very difficult for him to dig himself out of the scum hole he created whether he was scum or not. I don't feel lynching CA/Fritz would tell us anything at this point. Maybe we can wait until a little closer to deadline before we make a decision on that spot.

Hoopla I feel like in the last few pages you've focused really really hard on CA and why we should lynch CA and where is the replacement with CA? It feels like you've focused so much on that slot that you almost ignored the rest of the posts.

Fenchurch does a really good job of sliding around under the radar. I don't necessarily think Fen is scum but I don't have much feelings toward her at all, which makes me a little nervous.

I believe at least ONE scum is using the CA wagon as an easy kill because I don't think the reasoning is good enough to justify CA/Fritz being at L-1.

I'm not experienced with the 'back-up claim' scenario, but I think that as well as narrowing down who could be scum we

also

narrowed down who could be a PR FOR the scum. That thought just keeps sitting in the back of my head. Are back up claims common in this sort of set up? If I die N1 will it change your perception of those who were asking for claims?

My vote is still on DMG, I think taking DMG to a lylo situation would be dangerous, I honestly think DMG is more of a confusion than Hoopla ever was.

Wow, we're lucky that you're confirmed (seriously debating that merits of a back up clim after the claim in order to look good, seriously.)

Town tell is something in a post that suggests a player is more likely to be town than if they didn't make that tell. Whether its fakable or not is dependent entirely on the skill of the reader (just like with scum tells really.)

Stef: Who's scum? Do you think purposely trying to get to LyoL is pro-town?

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Halfway through.

DMG: Have you played with Hoopla before?

Don't quoter mer on this but I'm pretty sure I haven't.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

DMG - I feel that to a certain extent in the early game he was deliberately playing dumb, trying to get some newb-slack, to the point where Ald asked if he english was his first language. This doesn't seem like townie behaviour to me

I think you're taking that out of context. It was a direct result of Alduskel misreading a quote and from that making him think I used a word incorrectly.

Hoopla's last post ewas a lot of words but taught me absolutely nothing. I don'ty see it as town at all.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Fenchurch/Empking aren't scum together.
Fenchurch/Fritzler aren't scum together
Empking/Fritzler aren't scum together.

All three of these were a given.

Andrew is the wildcard as I said earlier, but he's individually less scummy than everyone here, even if he fits into more possible scumpairs.

Another given.

I think in smaller games, and in endgames of larger ones, it's necessary to try and weed out partners, as it's easy to be incorrect on individual behavioural tells. A much stronger play is to find someone scummy, then also figure out if they work with other players as scum - and in this game, I think there are several pairs I can safely rule out, minimising their chances of being scum overall.

Theory rather than scumhunting.

Alduskel being scum? Possibly logical but its clearly born out of a faulty premise so pretty darn pointless.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Seriously Hoopla. Who's scum with Ald? Its not me, you, Stef, Fritz, Ald, Fenchurch. So if we rule out Andrew. That leaves...?

Preview: I have never thought CA was the best lynch. But let's look at the reasonable scum pairs.

Hoopla - CA
Hoopla - Ald
CA - Ald.

CA is in 2/3 of the possible pairings (the same as every other possible scum!)

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

You'll note that your three non-pairings do not contradict a single one of those pairing.

Also just so I'm clear. Those pairings were for the beginning of page 11, now only pairing number one is reasonable.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Hoopla: I don't appreciate that post at all.

Last page you were going

There's a strong disincentive to bus in this game, particularly on Day 1,

and making big posts about it. Now suddenly you're going "Fritz and Fenchurch could be bussing Alduskel" (not an exact quote).

Hoopla; Is scum. Called it before the game even begun.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Just to get this on the record, you think Alduskkel is town then?

Its impossible for him not to be.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Just to remind you:

You'll note that your three non-pairings do not contradict a single one of those pairing.

Also just so I'm clear. Those pairings were for the beginning of page 11, now only pairing number one is reasonable.

Alduskel is clearly not scum with you. There goes one pairing. Alduskel is clearly not scum with CA. There goes the last pairing. If there is nobody he can be scum with then he's clearly not scum. (He's clearly not scum with those two because of this last minute wagon.)

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Hoop; Are you saying that only players who can (reasonbly) be scum buddies with Ald are myself and Andrew?

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Hoop; Are you saying that only players who can (reasonbly) be scum buddies with Ald are myself and Andrew?

It is starting to look this way now, yes.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Hoop; Are you saying that only players who can (reasonbly) be scum buddies with Ald are myself and Andrew?

It is starting to look this way now, yes.

1. So odds wise, CA is just as good a bet as Alduskel?

2. Since we agree that Andrew is town can you accept that from my POV that Alduskel must be town.
3. If you agree with two isn't it logical that as town I'd try to defend him?
4. Isn't it therefore a case of scum throwing muck at a player in order to get a townie lynched rather than good hearted scum hunting?

5. Alduskel flips town. Who are the scum? (I want both of them).

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Unvote

Vote: CA

Deadline is coming up.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Fen: Would you mind doing me a favour. Vote CA and then unvote. We both know you're town and I'd prefer you to be the decider rather than Stef"Hoopla has heard of logic so must be town"unny. Also, do you think I'd go on a futile (because in case you haven't noticed I have the rhetoric skills of a four legged animal) mission to save Alduskel if he was my scumbuddy?

Also, do you agree with Stef that Hoopla doing everything in her power to keep the town from lynching her obvious scum buddy is a point in her favour? Do you take it into account at all?

Finally, Who scummier Ald or CA? Hoopla or myself? Andrew or Hoopla?

Weren't we agreed just a couple of pages ago that Hoopla was the scum?

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

I fail to see how I was provoking in that last post. Frankly, I thought I was being rather grovellingly chummy.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

I'd prefer you to be the decider rather than Stef"Hoopla has heard of logic so must be town"unny.

Actually, if anyone is going to be the decider, I think it

should

be Stef"confirmed townie"unny.

Do you trust her judgement more than your own?

Ald: Why isn't your vote on Fritz?

(Am I the only one slightly worried that Fenchurch's vote has been on everyone but Hoopla.)

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

If andrew94 is scum, then why would he suggest that the backup claim? I don't see any scum motivation behind that. So andrew94 is very town to me.

I still think it benefits both sides. It narrows down who is or isn't a power role that needs immediate attention.

This is a zero-sum game. Which side does it benefit?

Also, Ald or Andrew?

Fenchurch: Though its true that we haven't interacted I think you're ignoring the fact that we haven't been ignoring each other (i've made it abundantly that I consider hiom almost certain town (as I'm sure you know considering you haven't tried to draw mer on his wagon). I hold the view that its the ignoring and not the non-interacting that's the scum tell.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Argh. I forgot about the Roleblocker. Been a while since I thought about this game, gotta get back into it I guess and not be worthless save for being confirmed.

My first thoughts are maybe DMG or Fritzler? This game is more than a little confusing.

No your first thoughts are the person who lead two (two!) quick wagons against townies in order to protect her scumbuddy. Right?

Hoopla; If you were an unbias observer would you say that the Fritzler-Hoopla pairing was a fine pairing that doesn't require bussing or Andrew in the scum team?

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Hoopla; If you were an unbias observer would you say that the Fritzler-Hoopla pairing was a fine pairing that doesn't require bussing or Andrew in the scum team?

Empking, you're asking me to be something that I'm not - and even if I were to roleplay this, I'd still likely be afflicted with some bias. If you are town, I don't think it's an unreasonable belief, if only because from your town perspective the scumteam must be between myself/Fritz/Andrew. I find it slightly suspicious you're seeking validation of authority from me to pursue this avenue of attack, rather than, you know, just posting what you think.

I don't think that is a particularly town mentality, but I'm going to read up the three possibilities from my perspective shortly.

So you're dodging the question and coming back with an OMGUS-esque attack? Cool.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Hoopla; If you were an unbias observer would you say that the Fritzler-Hoopla pairing was a fine pairing that doesn't require bussing or Andrew in the scum team?

Empking, you're asking me to be something that I'm not - and even if I were to roleplay this, I'd still likely be afflicted with some bias.

If you are town, I don't think it's an unreasonable belief

, if only because from your town perspective the scumteam must be between myself/Fritz/Andrew. I find it slightly suspicious you're seeking validation of authority from me to pursue this avenue of attack, rather than, you know, just posting what you think.

I don't think that is a particularly town mentality, but I'm going to read up the three possibilities from my perspective shortly.

So you're dodging the question and coming back with an OMGUS-esque attack? Cool.

If you're going to mudsling, at least put in some effort. I did

answer

your question (see bolded), and it is hardly an OMGUS attack - this is just a catchy buzzword to safeguard a sucky attack on someone, as if they're just supposed to take it. I gave reasoning why this attack felt bad and I even answered your question in the process, and I think you know this.

That was not an answer to my question. "That's not an unreasonable belief" is not an answer to a straight forward yes or no. It is, in fact, dodging the question.

Also, everyone. Hoopla's last post is clearly not written in good faith. "it's possible she was targeted purely because she was a more active and astute player who was capable of deeper analysis". Is that an accurate description of a player that did her level best (due to gross incompetence rather than malice) to get our power role outted and Fenchurch lynched?

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Yes thev fact that Andrew is unambigiously town is why I consider him town. Its one reason but I consider it a pretty important one.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Alduskel: Do you think that Hoopla forgot about the Alduskel wagon she lead or hoping that you won't realize how much that ridicules her argument that only talks about the Fenchurch wagon?
Secondly, I'm pretty sure you at least were aware of my belief that Andrew was town due to it being my main reasoning for putting you as my third suspect.
Thirdly, do yuou think Hoopla is arguing in good faith when she said myself and Andrew could "choose" what happens? (bearing in mind that Hoopla chose what happens.)
Fourthly, according to Fonz and others when you're dealing with Hoopla level players you can basically judge their alignment by the results of their actions. In Hoopla's case her actions resulted in... the best (reasonable) possible situation for scum.
Fifthly, the Fenchurch weagon came out of nowhere. I strongly doubt such a wagon could lead to a lynch so quickly without some of the players working together (i.e being scum.)

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

im confident fritz is scum, and one of you/empking is his partners

Bugger, really? The player that went to the ends of the earth to protect Fritz and who claimed that the only pairing that worked were with herself and you doesn't have an edge over little ol' me?

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Empking, be quiet and let Andrew make his own reasoning - I already know yours. You interjecting now and giving him answers is scummy as hell.

How did I give "him answers"? If he saw what I saw he couldn't have gone "One of Empking/Hoopla" he would've had to go "Hoopla".

I'm sorry if I don't want the scum who managed to wagon town twice in as many days to have full control of the thread.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Ald: Hoopla was arguing that no scum on the Fenchurch wagon wasn't too unlikely. She ignored your wagon apparently being all town as well.
By Hoopla choose what happened. I meant that Hoopla wanted to see you run up. You were then run up. She then wanted Fenchurch run up. Fenchurch was then run up. She chose what happened.

Do you but Hoopla's argument that she eliminated Andrew before I did (bearing in mind the conversation we had.)?
Secondly, why do you think CA wasn't lynched?

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Unvote

Vote: Fritzler

Surely you remember "Why am I scum" "Because everyone else is town". I feel badly let down at this point.

[Da_Mafia_Godfather]

Prod on ald?

or are we just going to wait till Ald can't put it off any longer.