The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Vote: DaSpotthatkillsu

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Mrs. Flay is JD/Pickem/UA/Flameaxe, I believe. Could be wrong on UA.

Spot, shut up.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

^^^

~kc

NO ONE CARES.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Day one starts once ten people have confirmed in thread.

Eight slots have confirmed so far, your voting while amusing is also pointless.

Hey now, do we really need to go that far? Work with us here, tbm.

Balam, confess!

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

In case tbm decides to continue his tyrannical policy, we will repeat my vote.

Vote: Spot

Unicorn Brethren, with us!

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

You're clearly not sorry as you haven't even stopped acting that way.

The Apple commands you, Unicorn Brethren!

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Uhoh.

Beaverweasel is clearly

Mastin

.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

WHY IS THERE A 6 MAN HYDRA

I don't intend on signing my posts. I don't know if CES does. He'll be the pedantic one anyway.

Assuming BeaverWeasel is Mastin from now on.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

That is definitely our plan.

P.S. Spot is clearly the superior policy lynch.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

^scum

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Fneh.

Since when was fail logic scummy? I'm inclined to believe daspotthatkillsu is probably just being a baddy, not a scumbaggo.

Hey yosface. Penny for your thoughts? Or was that all of them?

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Congrats ether, that's a neat little game of semantics you're playing there.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

What do you think I was trying to say?

We were talking about the presented quotes in #120. We originally thought the contradiction was imaginary but after AIM-fueled reflection came to the conclusion that the point of view Gummybear puts forth does contain an inconsistency. We however feel the inconsistency is, if anything, genuine and not the result of intentionally taking an anti-town position. We dislike the amount of reasoning put forth in #120 since, as evidenced by our position, we don't feel the relevant conclusion follows as straightforwardly as the lack of reasoning suggests.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

I agree with Ether, haven't we learned our lesson from Bible Verse Mafia? Allowing out-of-game sources can be problematic even without direct proof of authenticity.

Final Destination's defense is weaksauce. This wagon is reaching its final destination:

Unvote, vote: Final Destination

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

We didn't notice that it was L-1 when we placed our vote, but we're aware of it.

Final Destination is at Lynch -1.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

EBWOP:
We didn't notice that it was L-1 when we placed our vote, but we're aware of it now.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

We still like our Final Destination vote - the meta argument has merit and the first response reeked of scummy. ISOing Pathetric in light of YosCayke's argument we find ourselves in agreement with the latter.

All that Frogito has done is wait for bandwagons to grow just big enough to hop on unceremoniously. Has no strong opinions, but yet jumps on the biggest wagons at the time.

As evidenced by our single vote change. Try reading the thread.

And the cincher is that insencere warning about the L-1. That line sounded like a surreptious invitation for someone to hammer. Notice he wasnt afraid of the quickhammer, otherwise he wouldnt have voted. So then why put up a warning?

I never worry about intentional quickhammers. Unintentional quickhammers are a different story.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

We don't care about your stupid anti-meta stance, Greymarble.

Hey FrogJerky, dont be trying that arrogant asshole "RTFT" bullshit on me, it doesnt work. Your single vote change is enough to convince me of rampant opportunism. Sit on it long enough to not arouse suspicion and then hop on the more likely wagon now.

RTFT? I'm enough of an opportunistic bandwagonner normally that I know that that's not what I'm doing currently.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

We are in favour of edited VCs.

@Greymarble, easy. Fate is very aggressive and active as town. Final Destination has not been aggressive or especially active. There's ample scum motive since his town style is hard to emulate and furthermore, we've seen him try to clean up his act in Wait your turn, Tex and the difference wasn't nearly as big there. So yep, that's a good meta-based argument.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Oh and more people should trust Yos' ability to read Ether.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

1. Besides using meta as the entirety of his case being extremely weak,
2. FES uses SOLELY FATE'S meta in his post. What kind of logical fallacy is this? That since Fate is part of the hydra, if it is not posting like Fate's "town style" it is scum. Seriously, AGM's name isn't even MENTIONED in this post.
3. Using other game examples of me "trying something new" to imply that unless I fail miserably at cleaning up my act I'm scum... as if it were impossible for me to improve. I'll admit I didn't give Tex's game HALF as much effort at this one D1, since I basically treated it like a marathon/mechanic based game and didn't take it seriously at all. This game isn't an attempt to "clean up my act" btw, as I said earlier its an attempt to apply my hydra philosophy (that both heads shoul dagree on everything before posting) to a HYDRA BASED game. This results in more thought out posts, less caps (hard to CAPS when co-writing something), and... yeah.

4. AGM wants to list a fuckton of my games where I emulate my town style, which is apparently "difficult," as scum. If you're going to use meta to sit on a wagon, at least get it fucking right.

1. That's not the entirety of our case, as should be evident from the way we phrased it. The main thrust of our case is #142, which is a weird overreaction that intentionally focuses on the weaker parts of the meta arguments and tries to dismiss the stronger parts by suggesting they must be similar.
2. We don't feel sufficiently familiar with AGM's meta to make that type of argument about him. Certainly the hydra nature of your slot makes meta-based arguments harder to apply, but when the difference is this big, they're definitely still applicable.
3. We're having a hard time believing there wouldn't be any room for a more boisterous Fate in this new framework. It is clear that part of the change is intentional; that doesn't fully explain your behaviour.
4. You can start by linking us one.

Tunnels on us.

Someone doesn't understand early-game bandwagonning.

Suddenly changes their mind and says we were probably playing badly, not scummily. Only...there's no unvote.

Shanba was not yet familiar with the ways of the hydra.

Tries to rectroactively give a little reasoning and comes up with meta and "their response reeked of scummy". Not convincing at all. Still looks like a bandwagon vote.

I mentioned the defense as being weaksauce in the original voting post.

Did you even read post #142? Y'know, right when you mentioned them not being aggressive and all?

#142 is the main reason we're voting for Final Destination. Seeing as it was made by AGM, I don't see how it would be relevant to our Fatemeta argument.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

He hopped on two wagons that were highly opportunistic.

We were on the Spotwagon before the game started.

P.S. We approve of FEZ as an abbreviation.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

I've been having the issue that every time I see something I want to post, either CES is not there for me to run it by or he's already posted something about it, leaving only redundancy in his wake . He's kindly deigned to let me take this one, though.

The yoshate is as distinctly bad as the FES hate.

FES has overall not much in the way of content as I look through their postings.

is pretty hilarious really. I'm extremely surprised that he'd choose to attack yos and not us, given there's already a wagon on us, and his reasoning is distinctly weak - people always call ether obvtown cause she IS obvtown most of the time. I'm not really feeling it yet - still don't think her vote on gummybear was particularly good - but CES thinks she's town so you know whatever.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

We find the "not forming a bloc" accusation silly. No offense to Ether, but I don't particularly trust her reads either. As a whole, the case is unconvincing and contains elements that seem shoehorned in. We still like our vote.

legitimately scummy

Why the qualifier?

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

but that pushing for the mod to allow everyone to reveal their private hydra quicktopics or logs is probably a town tell (I think scum would be hesitant to have to get into making faking logs or having to come up with tons of fake scumhunting conversations in their quicktopics).

I'm not sure they would've thought that far ahead. It's not an obvious consequence if you haven't seen people post logs before.

and talking about isoing Ether and agreeing with Yos2 seems forced, I wouldn't have thought either CES or Shanba would need to do that to determine Ether's alignment.

We may both be in the scumchat in-crowd, but I (CES) haven't played with Ether all that much. Apart from [redacted, ongoing], there's no game with both of us since 2008.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

It really looks like you just decided "I really wanna for for Yos now, because I want to get him off my back, what bullshit justification can I invent for it."

We agree with this sentiment. We have serious trouble believing that FD believes some of the things that he's posted (e.g. his appeal to Lynch All Liars).

We are unconvinced by the case against US.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

#323 is bad, #328 is good. More content later.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

however we (and particularly the Fonz head) think that the QT-posting thing, given that it would likely be disastrous for scum, is an enormous towntell.

Isn't "Quoting your hydra qt is fine." just the naïve go-to position? We think it's a town tell because it suggests there are things in the qt that they want to quote, but not because they held the wrong position re: hydra QTs.

Vote: Final Destination

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

They specifically suggested modifying the rules to allow quoting of entire QTs, which would be disastrous for scum.

We are aware of the facts of the case.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

I know we never called him town but we thought he was very town, aka our stance on FES being scum yesterday.

Bullshit.

This is a lie. You were voting YosCayke and pushing their wagon for most of Day 1 and you were still doing it at the end.

Confirm vote: Final Destination

Agreeing with popular bandwagon, without a bandwagon vote When the FUCK have you ever seen a CEStown not on the main wagon d'jour? Especially one he AGREES with? For a tactical bandwagon hopper he sure has tunneled on me a fuck of a lot,

Calling one post good isn't the same as agreeing with a wagon. P.S. There are 2 people in this hydra.

He said 323 was bad yesterday, however he forGOES a BW wagon today (ala Balam's vote)

Bad =/= scummy.

Question: Do you disagree that #323 and #328 are bad and good posts respectively?

He has no original content, which he PROMISED "later" in the post.

We intended to get in a good post (i.e. not a one-liner like that one) later, but then the Day ended.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Hmm. I obviously leaped to a conclusion there, but it's ambiguous - US is tangential to that what he's talking about and the supposed relation between our alignment and YosCayke's is clearly established in FD's posting. In any case it's still a lie - at the end of the day he was advocating that YFC was scum and that by associative tells we weren't.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

We're slightly baffled by the suggestion that we should be voting beaverweasel, considering we had a much stronger scum read on final destination yesterday. On the basis of a single post that we thought was a bad one, not even a scummy one (bad refers to the quality of the case, not possible motivation), we're apparently supposed to throw away everything we have on FD?

Or is the argument that someone voted for BW first, and that he's therefore a bandwagon, and we should therefore be sheeping on that wagon? Cause that's also pretty clearly dumb. (- Shanba)

The reasons we had for voting Final Destination yesterday still hold. In particular, his SHOCK and HORROR at HOW DARE PEOPLE VOTE ME is so awkward and over the top it simply doesn't look honest.

daspot's pushing on UB yesterday looks like scum going after a weak target. Unicorn brethren is a loose cannon, and probably dangerous to the town just by virtue of being totally unpredictable (see: the hammer on US - who saw THAT coming?) But we don't think he looks scummy, not at all. Plus, there's number of posts where it looks like one head is trying to reign in the other - and in particular, going from an unpopular position (UB is scum) to a popular one (FES is scum). He's probably a scumbag too.

Yoscayke is still just town. Also why would yoscaykescum spend ages buttering up pathetric then off them night 1?

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

We just never got the chance to post it because there was a quickwagon derrrrp.

And then the morning hit, and we made our stance abundantly clear. So stop acting like "OMG FD is making stuff up!" Our advocacy is 100% clear ALL. THE. TIME.

Your previous post clearly implied differently, stating a level of consistency that simply wasn't there.

Also, it's really telling how bad your vote is that it's all predicated on "yeah, but's." E.g., You say something that's wrong, somebody tells you its wrong, and then you go, "Yeah, but what about THISSS!"

If you make a mistake, your case is void!

But ok... so you're saying unless you say somethign CONTROVERSIAL that I DISAGREE with we can't find you scum? That seems to be what you're implying, that because "well what I SAID wasn't wrong, was it?" that somehow constitutes as a defense of TOWN motivation in your posts. You're wrong, and scum.

We think it's a townie's duty to point out true things. Thus, I see the truth of those statements to be pretty relevant to motivation.

Ok, then NIGHT ended, and was THIS your good post?:

*shrug* Priorities change.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Froggy: Our big issue here is the FD vote. Jumping a wagon at L-1 with 'their defense of the accusations against them was weak' as justification looks about as obvious a scum piling on vote as this head has ever seen. That they'd shown no interest in FD earlier makes it even worse.

By voting without commenting on the meta argument we implicitly endorsed it. I'm not sure why you'd hold FD flying under the radar prior to that point against us - I don't believe there's any serious comment about FD prior to the meta argument by anyone.

All right, so we know now that you meant that BeaverWeasel's case was bad. What does that say about BeaverWeasel's alignment?

That depends to a great extent on what type of players it contains. They've struck us as Mastinesque so far, which would make it fairly null.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Surely ONE of the heads would have realized how disastrous it would be for scum-UB to have that rule in place. Additionally, he talks about a specific towntell committed by FD, and then votes for FD.

If one of them had realized it, I don't think they would've suggested it (assuming there was a consensus in the first place; RC strikes me as a person who'd suggest it in-thread regardless). And that was a town tell committed by UB, not FD.

We are totally ready to drop it like it's hot on FES, but will wait for him to speak first.

Yeah, no.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

I mean, have they commented SWEETFUCKALL on other people other than an occasional? "This post is bad, This post is good" with even still a later QUALIFIER that bad posts aren't even scummy!

That post had "More content later." in it for a reason. Trying to paint that as representative of our play is scummy.

Frogito Ergo Sum, who is your second strongest scum read?

Our comment on Spot was intended as an answer to this question the first time you posed it.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

That was meant to link here

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

@Greymarble, easy. Fate is very aggressive and active as town. Final Destination has not been aggressive or especially active. There's ample scum motive since his town style is hard to emulate and furthermore, we've seen him try to clean up his act in Wait your turn, Tex and the difference wasn't nearly as big there. So yep, that's a good meta-based argument.

IM GLAD YOU LINKED THAT

The reasons we had for voting Final Destination yesterday still hold. In particular, his SHOCK and HORROR at HOW DARE PEOPLE VOTE ME is so awkward and

over the top it simply doesn't look honest.

POINTS FOR WHO SPOTS THE SCUMBAG.

Our meta argument was based on your behaviour then. Obviously, once that argument has been made, you have plenty of incentive to change up your game and this in no way invalidates the early scum tell.

They seem to be saying 'They were really scummy, but we happened not to notice until they were already at L-2.'

FD didn't really catch our eye before Greymarble drew attention to them. We voted them in our next post. It may be instructive to note that the entire wagon sprung up in less than 6 hours; we were never in a position to join the wagon at an earlier point.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

@ FES (whenever it was you posted this)
I think that we didn't push that hard on Unicorn Brethren, and that even if we had, your apparently weak townread on UB should not make that a scumtell. Also, we STARTED the "popular" position on you.

@ FD
I would GLADLY be on the FES wagon.

unvote vote:FES

I'm just afraid my other head will want to switch it back for some reason.

We don't have a weak townread on Unicorn Brethren, we have a strong townread on Unicorn Brethren and (actually rather more importantly) if you look around, we're hardly unique in that position. UB is, on the other hand, a very easy target. And you pushed him pretty damn hard. You called him out for inconsistency, voted him, posted things like this and this, but then suddenly turn around and post this? Like, in that post he says they FoSsed him because "His first few posts in the game threw us off." when if you actually read the post containing the FoS, that's not what happened at all.

I mean, how can you make posts like this and say you weren't pushing UB hard? Also you didn't START the popular position on us. You're the third vote on the wagon, after Untrod Stranger and Final Destination (both of whom wrote up cases that are now the backbone of the case on us.) That's very definitely not starting a position.

Frogito Ergo Sum:

Do you think FinalDestination is going to be lynched today?

We think the lynch is possible, but not likely. It's an issue we're aware of, but we feel FD vs. us isn't going to go away and the only real alternative (Beaverweasel/SVT) is not a good lynch (since we need to do better than random.)

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Have you guys discussed the hammer extensively in your qt?

@Copper, nope.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

FinalDestination is not getting lynched today. Even if he is scum, your vote is not helping to lynch scum. You know this.

Frankly, none of our top suspects have a lot of votes. We're not going to compromise onto a wagon we view as strictly worse than our current wagon unless we have some pressing reason to - either because we believe the pressure will give interesting reactions or because there's a deadline or because the wagon isn't that much worse than our current one.

We would compromise onto a daspot wagon.

We may have been 3rd in the vote count for FES but who came up with that good as balls case? hmmm... oh right us.

If you're going to make this claim, back it up.

P.S. Yes, you were pushing the wagon.

Frogito Ergo Sum, in post 450, you pointed out a number of things from DaSpotthatkillsu's behavior toward Unicorn Brethren early on Day 1. Would the possibility that those 3 posts you linked in the first paragraph came from 2 different heads make any difference to your read?

'
No, it makes no difference to our read. We actually discussed it together when discussing daspot and came to the conclusion that one head is probably backtracking for the other's awful position.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Unvote, vote: Spot

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Oh, and just to note, given that last bit of rampant opportunism, this head will definitely prefer a FES lynch to a spot one if it comes to that.

Consider that Spot is our #2 suspect (we've made this abundantly clear). Consider that the FDwagon isn't going anywhere. Can you say with a straight face that voting for Spot in this situation isn't obviously the right thing to do for us?

I've put up with enough bullshittery voting from FES in [REDACTED ONGOING GAME] he gets his ass lynched out of this one.

Don't be a twatdonkey.

Congratulations, when poked and prodded enough you can begin to act vaguely pro-town. Why does it takes pokes and prods?

It doesn't. We were aware of the problem before you asked us (I don't forget my guiding philosophy when scum!) and vote change would've happened regardless of your little "game".

I'm not willing to lynch GummyBear at this point in time because they actually have a wider range of stances and reasons behind them, whereas Appleface has locked themselves onto a single pair without even mentioning anyone else except... let's see, Unicorn Brethren (town) and Super Vanilla Townie (bad lynch, worse than random). I probably shouldn't be accusing Greymarble of tunneling whilst these guys are still alive.

You can add town reads to YosCayke and Copper (he played much scummier in our earlier game) to that list if you want.

P.S. If FES's playstyle is to be totally unreadable, town or scum, then it's time to say "I dun care. " I've been accused of being hard to read, but it was because I read as town when I was scum. Not because I always read as meh.

Totally unreadable, as evidenced by the fact that quite a lot of people have non-null reads on us? I (CES) may play ultra-concisely occasionally, but there is very litte basis for that claim otherwise.

That being said I don't even find the meta case that convincing, and the last 'unvote, vote' just seems like a 'well, better play to my town meta' more than anything else.

I totally do that as scum too.

I'd kinda like to see some CES scum meta to be honest, because I doubt it's THAT different.

These two are probably most useful in that regard.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

But why now? The timing doesn't seem to fit with any honest appraisal of the game. You stayed on FD far longer than it was doing any good. So one might think, fine, they're tunneling. But if you're really tunneling, why wouldn't you wait until the last possible moment to change your vote? So it looks like you tried to look like you were tunneling to justify the earlier wagon hop, but then dropped the tunnel as soon as there was a viable counterwagon to your own. Which says playing to survive to me.

Because there's a viable wagon that we agree with. You'd think that we'd be able to make a more useful vote than FD, but for the longest time the only genuinely viable wagons were the one on us and the one on BeaverWeasel.

of course, these are the scum games CES WANTED us to see

Here are the other two games I've played as scum since my return (as CES).

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

I hope CES will forgive me for taking the opportunity to post under my own steam, here, but I just NEED to at this stage. I'm baffled by this wagon. I don't

get

it, and it's almost certainly largely scum driven. I mean, I'm not even sure why FD is voting us any more - it seems like he's just tunneled hard on us (his latest accusation of us tunneling is laughable, in context) - we called out his ridiculous overreaction (which IS scummy, like it or not) and cited the meta case, and now he thinks we're scum? Uph. Honestly I'm beginning to lose conviction that they're scum anyway, but w/e. We're not voting them any more. If we survive and CES still thinks you're scum, we'll have to compromise or w/e.

The one thing I've learnt from this game is that CES and I have massively different playstyles. Personally, I think we should have been pushing FD harder earlier, and he thinks we should have jumped off the FD wagon earlier, and between us we ended up doing neither and parking our vote there for no real reason.

Frankly I think Copper's jump on our wagon is scummy. He skirts around it for ages, then invents a little game that allows him to jump on board. I don't like people telling me not to vote someone. I'm pretty certain that we could still get FD lynched if we tried - but well, I guess we haven't really been making things happen this game. It's hard when everyone thinks you're scum and no one will listen to what you say except to invent scumtells in it (/bitter).

Daspot is like ridiculously insanely scummy and I have no idea how ANYONE can think he's town. Like, that exchange at the beginning, read it again. He votes UB, pushes UB (and yes, that is pushing. WTF. I have no idea how he can think that shit isn't pushing - repeating "omg x is scummy" and bringing him up over and over is pushing the lynch) and then his partner comes in, realises what a terrible idea it is to push the ridiculously soft UB wagon and tries to reposition them. Peu importe that everyone thinks they're town - it's a soft wagon because UB is essentially this game's VI, this game's designated day 1 wagon (and that he didn't get more votes is pretty extraordinary, really) and pushing that wagon is generally both attractive and lethal to scum. So yeah, daspot needs to die.

Apart from that, I personally liked the gummybear case that fonzi was talking about - CES was lukewarm on it though. Hah, that's counter to my meta, I know, but lurking scum is back in vogue (probably since no one lynches lurkers any more). On that note, if me and CES have had low activity it's partly because we haven't agreed on much.

I don't really want to claim, and fonzi's suggestion that us getting out of this mess sans claim would mean we're scum is bullshit.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Ergo, the only way Froggy survives this without a claim is if he's scum. Therefore, I want a claim.

?

Gender: Male

Post #636 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:56 pm
Copper wrote:
---

Fonzi: If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that any last-minute energy towards daSpot would indicate FES scum (because we're the only voter on the FES wagon who would be similarly happy with a daSpot lynch.) Why wouldn't you want to keep that to yourself, and see if this change in momentum indeed occurs?


Eh? I'm not saying that at all. I was saying there wasn't any chance of that momentum shift actually happening, so we might as well stop going round in circles. I kinda agree with FD here...

Actually this is a massive glaring backtrack and I'm baffled copper didn't call you out on it.

My bad, wrong account.

Just to elaborate further - it's impossible to read the sentence "the only way froggy survives without a claim is if he's scum" without an implicit "If he's scum, it's possible he survives. The sentence makes no sense otherwise. Then he later says "there wasn't any chance of that momentum switch happening" with an implicit "even if he is scum". I'd have said it wasn't important, but a) copper letting it go for no apparent reason and b) him then calling me out for using his exact words leaves a serious bad taste in my mouth.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

@Copper, Shanba really only describes part of why our vote got parked on FD. The main reason, as far as I'm concerned, was lack of a proper alternative. It's hard to convince Shanba to vote for someone else when you yourself are barely convinced that this vote switch will do any good.

And frankly, having played more with CES, I dun like his response to my case retraction on day 1. That was a tossed together case that was very similar to what I use to pin lynches on townies when I'm scum, me retracting it that way would be something I'd think would make town-CES likely to slam his vote into ME. Not glue it to a player for reasons that are terrible, were terrible, and will always be terrible.

You haven't played with me nearly enough to make that kind of call and I don't know why you think you do. A completely unforced retraction of a case isn't a priori scummy. As far as I can tell, you made a case based on the observation that Fate wasn't aggressive which you didn't actually agree with as a result of a general stance on meta. I, on the other hand, think meta arguments are wholly valid and your "retraction" meant nothing to me. It's not the strongest of arguments (certainly not enough for my vote to be glued to FD without additional evidence as was foremostly provided by AGM's over-the-top "rebuttal" and his later behaviour)

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Not to mention that your defense of FES is so lame, you have to resort to using the word "obvious" about 4 times. Your entire defense boils down to "he's obviously town". Just as I suspected, you have proven yourself a scumbuddy of FES. Now to find the 3rd scum.

Anyone who thinks this is town reasoning, should be shot.

As I understand it, Greymarble retracted the case not because they didn't believe in meta but because they made the whole thing up. Greymarble even admitted to this, which makes your continued push with it on Day 1 bad.

Do you dispute that Fate hadn't been aggressive? If Greymarble had offered up a refutation of their own argument beyond "lol meta", then that might be relevant. Otherwise, their statements don't impact the validity of the argument.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

The problem with your analogy is that there wasn't a Democrat option. In terms of theory, I definitely agree with Copper. The actual argument just relies on an assumption (the existence of Democrats) that while usually valid wasn't valid here. Honestly, Copper, your stance on this issue has been a little naive - I don't suddenly stop thinking about stuff like this when I'm scum.

I see Fate hasn't gotten the memo that there's more than one scum in a game.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Even my fellow head AGar was confused by my GummyBear vote, so I'll explain. There have been numerous complaints about the game state in this thread, starting with Super Vanilla Townie, and then GummyBear busts in here and goes, "This game sucks!" Way to dampen the town's morale. Bringing town down in this manner is a scum tactic that I have seen work. I'd expect, after 4 people have complained, that the next person to feel that way would know to shut up and do something about it. Slapping a vote on the big wagon and then going, "Game sucks, can we move on now?" isn't productive. Heck, even deadline lynching is more productive than post 752.

Although I like the thought put into this, it doesn't feel to me like something signsign/quadz would do intentionally. They're not particularly devious.

That said, Gummybear's responses to this wagon have bad. I don't know what would possess them to defend themselves based on an information argument (#760); the "flash wagon"-"running headlong" thing was pointless; "why does that apply to you calling us the only viable lynch, but not us calling FES and Daspot the only viable lynches?" relies on a switcheroo in the meaning of viable from "viable [as far as I'm concerned]" to "[objectively] viable".

Hell, when we made our vote on FES, I figured it would throw a lot of pressure on us, but a) we think they're scum, and b) it's something new and different and would hopefully kickstart discussion. And hey, lookit that, it worked.

Why were you expecting pressure? Why didn't you vote earlier if you thought we were scum? How exactly is a vote for us new? Why would it kickstart discussion? If anything, it strikes me as moving towards ending the Day.

HI FROGITO ERGO SUM.

HI BALAM.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

I used a consistent meaning of viable throughout my argument; if someone else was using a different meaning, then I expect them to say that we're using different meanings.

Balam never even used the word "viable" as far as I can tell.

Why were you expecting pressure? Why didn't you vote earlier if you thought we were scum? How exactly is a vote for us new? Why would it kickstart discussion? If anything, it strikes me as moving towards ending the Day.

Hi there, obvious fluff-questions. 1: because we hadn't very active, and we were putting you at L-1. 2: Because we were voting someone we thought was scummier. 3: See 1 and 2. 4: See your question number 1. 5: Ummmm... that's because it is? I mean, deadline IS still Saturday, right?

Far from fluff. I really don't see why you would expect a backlash if you were town (and your answers here aren't convincing), while it makes perfect sense for scum who are aware they're placing a L-1 vote on a townie. The point of 4/5 was that if you're trying to kickstart discussion, then you're not pushing towards the end of the day (end of day = end of discussion for fairly obvious reasons). Which were you doing?

Greymarble's meta argument for Spottown seems very situational and a bit too finicky to work in the altered context of a hydra game. I can easily imagine partnering with dana leading to more activity; the fact that people pointed out to him that activity was a problem for him as scum doesn't help either. Spot is scums.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Stop! Hammertime.

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Unvote, vote: Gummybear

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

I'd like to see a claim. Not really sure how FES escaped without providing one Yesterday.

Why are you this claim-focused?

Vote: Spot

Unicorns, did you guys ever confirm your complete identities? Also, who is Copper made up of?

- Incog

UB should be ReaperCharlie, tanstalas, Fritzler, Stefunny, Kise and Kaleidoscope. Copper is anonymous and its anonymity predates this game, so I doubt they'll tell us who they are.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

In that post you seemed more concerned with me claiming than getting me lynched. This post isn't much better.

What made you hammer Gummybear? I don't really recall you commenting much on that wagon as it was forming, and I don't see you mention anywhere that you found them scummy either.

Shanba and I both felt the wagon was worthwhile due to the way they responded to the wagon and the deadline was ~7 minutes away.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Shanba and I both felt the wagon was worthwhile due to the way they responded to the wagon and the deadline was ~7 minutes away.

See to me this seems to indicate that you were observing the thread for awhile on Saturday but choosing not to say anything. I mean I doubt you just randomly popped up right on time just minutes before deadline for the hammer. If you're town, I don't really get why you wouldn't give input on the things that were happening while Gummy was at L-1. I could see why scum might do that though.

We were around at the time, but we weren't particularly motivated to get a proper post up.

Not necessarily. I know the times that I've been scum, I've always have much rather had the sure mislynch the Day it's available than wait another Day for a time that I wouldn't even be guaranteed to have that same mislynch opportunity again. Towns can be fickle sometimes.

Did you notice that Gummybear offered to hammer itself?

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

We were around at the time, but we weren't particularly motivated to get a proper post up.

But motivated enough to hammer? lol.

Uh, yeah? Posting 2 ascii hammers and a vote doesn't take a whole lot of mental effort.

Did you notice that Gummybear offered to hammer itself?

Yes, and I had mentioned a couple of times that I thought Gummy's whole reaction to being at L-1 looked town. I'm assuming you're bringing this up in this case though because you're trying to say a you-scum could have just sat back and waited for the self-hammer. But like you said before the deadline was like 7 mins away and Gummy was nowhere in sight - kinda hard to self-hammer in that case, so I think what I said there still has some validity to it.

And you don't think a failure to self-hammer would've looked damning? Mescum would've stayed the hell away - either Gummybear does as promised or there's a no-lynch and a freebie mislynch the next day.

UB is still a town read in our books.

As I noted, the scum games CES supplied show a pattern of attacking a partner consistently, but jumping off to lynch townies later in days.

One game doesn't make a pattern.

Our guess for scum: FD/Spot/PC,

Unvote, vote: FD

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

I swear their most recent scum list looks like they just took a bunch of names and threw them into a hat.

Are you reading our posts at all?

he [FD] has stayed with most of his reads and has been pretty consistent.

Consistency is a slight scum tell, just fyi.

After the Gummy-hammer by FES, I felt even more confident in my read of FES because I really couldn't see how anyone with enough experience would actually hammer Gummy after the series of posts they posted at L-1.

We don't see anything particularly pro-town in Gummybear's L-1 posting. Do elaborate. Furthermore, we'd like a response to our last question on this subject: wouldn't a failure to self-hammer on their part looked damning?

The whole "I want a claim" thing was me thinking most others would easily see FES as scum too especially when they started racking up the votes from the get-go.

They got lots of votes, thus they must be scum?

Final Destination hasn't seemed afraid of conflict (a trait that I more often associate with town than scum) and they've been taking an active role in scum-hunting.

I don't think this assessment is even close to accurate.

Spot's mistake there seems genuine and I think scum would be aware of how many people were alive. Hmmm.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Oh Daspot. Daspot Daspot Daspot. Having good logic does not always mean a player is town.

I agree with LF's 381 since I can't point to anything specifically pro-town that Copper has done all game either. So I'm concerned with how people are just ticking them off without really looking into them.

For example, Copper, I don't really get your vote and case. It seems to amount to "Balam has been shady around FES wagons. Therefore Balam is either scum with FES or Balam is scum while FES is town and they're waiting for the FES flip to unleash some fury." The thing that puzzles me is I always got the impression that you thought FES was scum, so I don't get why you'd now choose to vote off-wagon for this kind of reason. Break it down for me?

Are you reading our posts at all?

Yeah.

We don't see anything particularly pro-town in Gummybear's L-1 posting. Do elaborate. Furthermore, we'd like a response to our last question on this subject: wouldn't a failure to self-hammer on their part looked damning?

In response to part 1, see this post and this post both made by me.

As for the second part, I don't really know. People who genuinely thought Gummy looked like scum would have probably not listened to their excuses for not self-hammering, but I still don't think it'd be as cut and dry as them getting insta-lynched the next Day.

The whole "I want a claim" thing was me thinking most others would easily see FES as scum too especially when they started racking up the votes from the get-go.

They got lots of votes, thus they must be scum?

That's not what I was saying there, but I could see how you might have read it that way. I was saying that at D3's start, the momentum was going in your direction, and I thought whoever hadn't checked into the thread by the time I voted you would be voicing some suspicion of you too. So it seemed appropriate to me to ask for a claim.

- Incog

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Uh. Damn browser.

Mod

, could you delete that?

I can't actually, only list mods can delete posts.

We don't see anything particularly pro-town in Gummybear's L-1 posting. Do elaborate. Furthermore, we'd like a response to our last question on this subject: wouldn't a failure to self-hammer on their part looked damning?

In response to part 1, see this post and this post both made by me.

The first link just has you saying it and the second one just mentions willingness to self-hammer, which was significantly undermined as a town tell by the fact that they already had postponed it once. You yourself said you weren't sure they'd follow through.

As for the second part, I don't really know. People who genuinely thought Gummy looked like scum would have probably not listened to their excuses for not self-hammering, but I still don't think it'd be as cut and dry as them getting insta-lynched the next Day.

Sure, but it's pretty clear that going for the no-lynch is superior for scum, no?

FES, what do you think of FD's 990?

Well, for the most part, it's nothing new. He held a similar position at the end of Day 1 and given the situation he's in, he has ample motive to change tack. FD does make one point we agree with regarding YosCayke's inconsistently suspecting FD. I don't remember any mention of FD as a suspect on Day 2 (and FD must've fallen down to at least #3 on the scum list as evidenced here) but they're right back at it Today.

That said, any town credit FD gets for that point he immediately wastes by trying to spin Ether's "Probably Yosarian, I guess" comment into a scum tell.

P.S. re: lurking, I think FD and I have both suffered activitywise from wanting to synch up with our partners. Independent heads are more than twice as active as one combo.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Quick post, because we've been negligent.

Yosarian seems obvtown, or he's snowing me very well. I usually find him scummy by default, but he just looks like town to me here.

Ether's position on Yos points to YosCayketown, not to YosCaykescum.

PC, you do realise the no-lynch would only lengthen the game if the scum kill got prevented at some point, right? You're really stretching to find a scum motive for the hammer here.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

FES, I've pretty much dropped that point for the most part already. I only keep bringing it up because you keep asking about it some more. There are other reasons I find you scummy. The hammer was just icing on the cake.

I keep bringing it up because regardless of how clearly I stack up the evidence in favour of my position, you seem incapable of ceding the point and instead respond with a "but".

Can Lord Fonzi and PC actually give their cases now? The only evidence I see arrayed against Copper are that he's avoided the spotlight (which strikes me as normal for Copper), a non-existent scumslip and the suggestion that he's trying to chain lynches by voting Balam, which strikes me as nonsensical; we do have a problem with the Balamvote but our problem lies with its uselessness; the notion that Copperscum is planning to get Balamtown lynched today and then us to win the game does not pass the sniff test.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

^That's part of the reason we're not all that sold on Spot anymore.

If you're going to use a meta defence, let's see it, because 'avoiding the spotlight' is one of those things I consider to be a prime scumtell.

Although meta is involved (I played with him in Cathart's 934), it's more that he's 1) not that active due to hydra and 2) just not very flashy. I mean, look at his vote switch to Balam. He went "okay, we've thought about this, this is what we're going to do and why" and everyone just ignored him. I don't think that's scummy on his part. You can't fault the guy for being boring.

FES came out with a kind of equivocal 'Don't see the case, explain please' kind of thing that appears to be defence, but leaves open the possibility of joining the wagon later if the case is more persuasively stated.

We dealt with all the arguments that had actually been mentioned. You can't expect us to give an opinion on arguments that haven't been stated yet.

We're not surprised that FD is willing to vote for Copper.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

^not scum with Balam or PC

FD's #1146 is a pointless tirade that completely ignores the substance of PC's comment, i.e. that Yos2 townhunted using similar town tells. PC doesn't call him out on this.

Do you even have a read on Yos? Or on anyone at all?

List of reads:
Scum - FD, PC
Null - Spot, Lord Fonzi
Townish - Copper, Balam
Town - Yeastarian, Masterprimate of Sin

Convienent flip on Copper? I never had strong town read on him, it was always WEAK and I always believed that e was a player worthy of keeping around (For his ability to catch scum, to draw NKs, etc.) Now that he's still alive and hasn't done shit, YEAH ITS BOUT TIME I reveal that weak town read was a weak gut scum read.
DERP

^scum

It was always a weak town read, but it was secretly a weak scum read? It wasn't a convenient flip-flop because you secretly held that position previously but lied about for unspecified reasons?

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

We consider a roleblocker to be more powerful than a doctor, so it makes sense to us that Yeastarian would play their role as a roleblocker. Furthermore, given the lack of displayed town power, a town jailkeeper makes more sense than a mafia RB (which he'd certainly be if he were fakeclaiming) here.

Protown CES generally leads games, and FES isn't doing that

What? You're supposed to be somewhat familiar with my playstyle and that most definitely isn't it.

Case against PC:
1) PC is wrong about too many things (i.e. us, YFC, FD). We're unfamiliar with smargaret, but Incog's supposed to be good at this.
2) Specifically, not calling FD on their bullshit. Even if you think FD is town, he's clearly yelling more than that he's engaging with the game. E.g. #1146.
3) PC seemed to be trying scoring points in our back-and-forth about the Gummybear hammer. He never really backed up his claim that Gummybear was acting town while at L-1 and he never ceded the hammer argument.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

We're lynching FD at last, thank God Almighty, FD at last.

A Yos-Balam scum team doesn't make sense to us. They can't realistically expect to claim Jailkeeper and Rolecop and not cause obvious balance problems.

Spot is definitely town.

The fact that Balam is saying "yeah go ahead and lynch me" is just blatant reverse psychology. As a real town role cop, he'd fight for my lynch so hard because it would "clear" himself and Yos.

When did Balam say this?

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

2 out of 2 (not necessarily distinct) Shanbas questioned agree that mass claim is the right play here.

Popcorn, obviously. We want PC to start.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Townie here.

Copper's next.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Have you considered the balance of the set-up at all? 1 Tracker is not nearly enough vote power. Unvote.

And we should finish the mass claim.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

We switched to 13 player minis because town lost too many 12 player games. 13 players with 2 scum is balanced. 13 players with 3 scum and a tracker is not.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Copper's confirmed scum here in my eyes due to Mastermate and PC not hammering.

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Vote: Copper

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Don't bother pretending, PC. We lynched scums.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Yos, we're lynching PC today, not Mastermate.

PC, feel free to elaborate on what you think you did that scum wouldn't've done. I won't call WIFOM, I promise.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

We're not convinced that Mastermate

is

scum; the notion that MoS was blinded by his own arrogance does not strike us as that implausible.

PC is scum. PC is Today's lynch.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

Vote: Mastermate