The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Cayke is here confirming. Gonna read in a little bit.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

@ Unicorn Brethren
Two things:
1) Your excuse is fail. There is no way we are going to allow your many heads to change what is a scumtell. If you contradict yourself, you are scummy.
2) You essentially contradicted yourself by saying we are scummy for not actually voting you and by saying that "our OMGUS was showing". If we're not voting you, it's not OMGUS.
With that said,

unvote vote: Unicorn Brethren

Both halves of that argument are pretty horrible.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

@DaSpotthatkillsu

FTR I agree with yos on your reasoning being bullshit.

Hydras contradict themselves all the time. It is many heads with each head having their own opinions. you are BOUND to have a difference in opinion.

as for your second point I have no idea what the hell you were even trying to say.

2)

[YosFlavouredCayke]

oh that was cayke btw and i had totally deleted that 2)

[YosFlavouredCayke]

@ Greymarble and YosFlavouredCayke
If you disagree, say why. Our case on Unicorn Brethren is better than any other case right now, because it actually has reasoning instead of "oh look guys, they're signing their posts let's lynch them" or "^ scum".

Well, my partner kind of already covered it, but:

Changing your mind, being "inconsistent", is not a scumtell at all. And of course this is even more true when there are different people in a hydra posting; of course different people in a hydra are going to have different opinions, and there's no reason to not share that in thread. This isn't a 13 player game, we've actually got more then 26 minds working on this game, there's no reason not to take advantage of that fact.

And your other argument was even worse. The "If we're not voting you it's not OMGUS" thing is silly; many people, most people I'd say, use OMGUS these days to refer to any "I'm attacking you because I don't like that you're attacking me" type stuff. So you're disagreeing with him on how he's using a mafia term, and...that makes him scum...because?

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

By the way, just a quick rules clarification:

3. Don't quote anything that hasn't been posted in this thread.

I'm assuming this means that we're not allowed to directly quote in thread private discussions we have between our hydra heads, is that correct?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Here I logged on intenting to sheep on you onto the gummywagon, Ether, mostly because your posting last page was awesome. Now I have to actually think for myself? Bah.

I do approve of the Dana wagon, and was not aware we were getting into serious mode. FES makes the strongest case for Dana, IMO ("^scum")

Last post AGM made in the hydra QT was asking me if I cared about the hydra that didn't reveal itself, so we still haven't had a chance to discuss reads or place a real vote down.

The whole "was not aware we were getting into serious mode" bit is mildly scummy. Also, the whole post does feel oddly overcautious, which, in my limited experence with him, is not a trait I normally associate with Fate.

Sure, let's ride this wagon and see what happens.

Vote:Final Destination

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Heh. Voting for Ether here, seriously? Man, you guys are so scum.

Confirm vote:Final Destination

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

1. Final Destination's vauge support for the Dana wagon, which they were unwilling to back up with a vote, seemed scummy. Their "I didn't know the game was serious yet" defense was also somewhat scummy.

2. The OMGUS "WELL FINE WE'LL POST IN ALL CAPS VOTE UNICORN" response by Almaster was worse. The meta argument may or may not be strong, but it was certanly a good enough reason for a early day 1 vote.

3. The OMGUS vote by Fate on Ether/Patrick here is even worse then that. Ether is clearly obvtown here, that should be obvious to anyone reading the thread.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

We don't like the Fate/AGM wagon any more. Plus, they shouldn't be lynched D1.

We are significantly

more

sure that DaSpotthatkillsu are scum anyway. Call it a... supermagical scum vibe; they are tingling our Rainbow-sense in a way that not a lot of people do. Reckamonic makes it tingle too. But of course, we are not sure if that is the same way or because of something entirely different and rainbow related. We will keep you informed. However, that is not the direction for today either.

Unvote: Re-Vote: DaSpotthatkillsu

Day 1 can still be short. Make it so.

Look at this. Without any more post from us, without any discussion by others on our actions, without any real explanation, they suddenly jump off their big wagon and start voting for us again. It's almost like they think it's funny. And then they tell us to make the day short, when some people have barely posted. How is this not scummier than anything this account has done?

Aggressive early day 1 voting isn't scummy; it's usually a pro-town tell, if anything. Looks to me like Fritz + Co is currently dropping dynamite into the pond and hoping scum float to the surface, and that's fine with me.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Gummy bear looks like an easy mislynch, and that was such a nice little way of saying "oh, I could see hopping to that wagon if it gains momentum, but I just don't trust it..."

Ok, now, that's absurd.

Ether's reasoning for suspecting Gummy made perfect sense, and was about as strong as you'd expect for page 5 of day 1. The fact that she was willing to wagon hop to someone else scummy in order to get pressure going is a good sign, not a bad one. Basically as soon as the game started, she ran right out onto the high wire without a net, just to get reactions and to get the game moving. And what's more, she's clearly having fun doing it; if Ether's enjoying herself in a game, you can bet money that she's town.

Are you reading Ether's posts this game? Half the reason I was assuming Fate was scum because I didn't think there's any way that anyone pro-town could read Ether's posts and not see that they all screamed town.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Its yos, you have to agree with him

All jokes aside, yes I agree that Frogito's jump onto the Final Destonation was opportunistic, but that's not always scummy. Lazy yes, but not always scummy.

I also agree very much with Yos' read on Ether. Ether doesn't say she's town unless she's town.

-cayke

[YosFlavouredCayke]

How was froggy being "beligernt" or "insulting"? He responded rationally and logically to the (fairly weak) case against him. You need to explain this to me, untrod, because I don't get what you're trying to say.

I honestly don't understand your vote for him at all. You don't agree with his meta read on Fate, so that makes him scum? I can understand you not being convinced by it, but it seemed rational and reasoanble, especally as a part of a day 1 case. And now you're voting him for being "insulting"? Who did he insult? DaSpot, for misunderstanding an early day 1 wagon vote as being a "tunnel"? I don't get your point here, UT.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Ok, Yos, I will concede your point in which the wrong words were used. A better word would be condescending.

Meh. In any given mafia game on this site, something like 75% of the people in the game will act in a condescending way to someone else at some point. The other 25% are lurkers.

Despite that, youre ignoring the initial points that initally aroused suspicion on FOS in the first place aswell as the opinion thats others have since placed. Was that deliberate in your part, Yos?

(shrug) I don't agree with your initial points, but I didn't have any specific reason to jump in and defend Froggy on them at that time. Sometimes, it's better to let someone defend themselves, you get more information that way. I only questioned you about your later post since it seemed to be just flat out factually inaccurate.

However, since you ask, I'll be glad to give you my thoughts on your initial attack on froggy.

Youre all wrong. Frogito is your scum.

Look at their posts. All that Frogito has done is wait for bandwagons to grow just big enough to hop on unceremoniously. Has no strong opinions, but yet jumps on the biggest wagons at the time. The posts are clearly used to state that they are around, but not really contributing much other than a walking meatvote.

And the cincher is that insencere warning about the L-1. That line sounded like a surreptious invitation for someone to hammer. Notice he wasnt afraid of the quickhammer, otherwise he wouldnt have voted. So then why put up a warning?

Vote:Frogito Ergo Scum

Your first point seems to be that Frog is bandwagoning a lot. On day 1, I don't see that as a scumtell at all, especially since I more or less agree with his votes. A lot of people have the mafia-theory idea that it's good and pro-town to bandwagon pretty much at will on day 1, to get the game moving, to get information flowing, to get reactions. I don't see that as scummy at all, at least not in a vaccum.

Your second point, that he "has no strong opinions", doesn't seem to be correct. He clearly disagreed with Ether's gummy vote, for example.

Your third point, about the lynch -1 warning, is also kind of iffy. I generally think it's a good idea to make it clear when someone is at lynch -1, to prevent anyone from hammering accidentally. Even if you think the person in question should be hammered, the town gets more information from making sure that it's clearly established beforehand that the person who drops the hammer knew he was doing it.

All in all, I think your case on Froggy is weak and unconvincing.

We also notice that you also happen to be other group fixated on this Final D bandwagon and still has a vote there. Is that on purpose? Is this some kind of defense for the FOS? Doesnt this look a tad suspicious on your part? You fail to mention exactly why you wouldnt vote for FOS, why is that?

Huh? I explained why I'm suspicious of Final D, and all those reasons still apply. I think he's committed several scum tells, especially in the way both halves of the hydra reacted to pressure, and at the moment he's the person I'd most like to see lynched today. I'm not sure what that has to do with the froggy votes, especially since I was voting for Final D long before anyone voted for froggy.

Why put yourself out there with such an obvious link, Yos? Would this not look bad on you when FOS flips scum?

What the heck kind of question is that? If you want me to vote for froggy, you need to convince me froggy is more likely to be scum then anyone else. Trying to scare me into voting him with vague threats about spurious links to someone who doesn't look especially likely to be scum to me right now isn't going to change my opinion of him at all.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I've been WAITING eagerly for what Yos would say after AGM finally got together and produced content:

Nothing. Not a single comment on our views of the game, our elaboration of our reads (and if Ether is that easily read as town, well I'll be having fun at Goofbash for one), and basically the extreme info dump on this thread we produced.

(shrug)

I think your suspicion of DaSpotthatkillsu is reasonable; I don't have a good vibe on him, mostly because I have disagreed with pretty much everything he's said and done so far this game. I don't find your case on Froggy to be convincing, but I figured it's be more useful to see what his response to it was then to jump in and defend him. Your unvote on Ether makes sense no matter what your alignment is, since you're obviously not going to get her lynched today. I'm glad you're posting and are active, but nothing you've said yet cancels out your earlier scumtells.

If you have anything specific you want me to respond to, I'll be glad to do so.

(And, by the way: Yes, Ether is sometimes quite easy to read, especially face to face. The funniest example was back at one of the BeachBash meets, when I said "Ether, are you scum?" and she hesitated, and then said "...no?" Her scum play has improved somewhat since then, but when she's obvtown, she's obvtown.)

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

first Cayke on FES: saying his jump was lazy but not scummy, offering NO INSIGHT why her vote was still on me,

My vote is on you because I agree with my partner and his read on you, i'm pretty sure he covered it too soooooo........

What more do you want from me?


@US 229: *facepalm.* Could you link me to what you're reading? Cuz i'm pretty sure its not in this thread.

~Cayke

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Pardon me, UT, but, uh, was any of that post in response to anything I just said? Are you responding to some post you read in a parellel universe?

When did I say that Froggy had "fabolous reasoning" or "batman like deductions"? When did I say "we want to lynch final D and so does he, so he must be town"? What the hell are you talking about?

And this is especially bizarre:

Since when did Froggy hire Yos to be his Johnny Cochran anyways?

You go out of your way to ask me about what I think about your case on froggy, and then FOS me for responding? Your case against him was weak. Joining bandwagons on day 1 with minimal reasoning is not a scum tell, pointing out when someone is at lynch -1 is not a scumtell, and everything else you said was just bluster and BS. I was willing to let you run with it and see what happened, since this is day 1 and all, but if you ask me what I think about it, I'm going to answer you. And now you're FOSing me for honestly answering your question?

Do you honestly think you can just railroad, threaten, and badger me, of all people, into joining a bad wagon for crap reasons?

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Ok. I realized I didn't actually have a read on half the people in the game, so I went through and ISO's everyone I didn't have a solid read on (which was like 6 people, mostly because there are so many damn lurkers in this game). So, here's my analysis of everyone in the game at the moment. (Standard disclaimer, this is based on just the first 10 pages of day 1, expect reads and opinions to change wildly in the future based on new information, hunches, wild mood swings, and whatever I eat for breakfast, ect ect.)

Frogito Ergo Sum-Leaning town. Bandwagony tendencies are what I’d expect from CES. Most of the posts so far feel more like CES then like Shanba, based on my rough meta of the two of them; if I’m right about that, I’d like to hear some more from Shanba.

Pathetric-100% superdupertriplelooper obvtown

Gummybear-Eh. Less scummy when read in ISO then I was thinking off the top of my head. Thing with Ether is probably just a theory disagreement, and is consistant with earlier comments about UB and such. Null. I really do want to hear a read from them, though; they’ve said nothing about who they find suspicious or who the find town-ish at all. They promised they’d do so soon, and I hope to hear from them about it.

Final Destination-scummy.

Balam-Don’t really have a problem with the vote on DaSpotthatkillsu, although I am wondering why, exactally; only thing he said was that thing about sigs, and that’s not exacatlly a scumtell. He hasn’t done anything since. Borderline lurker; just responded to a prod; expect to hear from them soon.

Mrs. Flay-Severe lurker. Has yet to make a useful post this game. Needs to post or die. Guys, I know there’s 4 of you, and odds are Flameaxe has probably already flaked, so I’m not surprised you’re having trouble coming to a consensus, but that’s ok; if any of you has any opinion on anything, just post it and we’ll move on from there, or just post both sides of a disagreement you have, or something. You guys need to get some thoughts down into the thread.

Reckamonic-I don’t really get the attack on Unicorn. I guess it was a joke vote, ish, but he’s kept it on all game, possibly because they've been lurking since rvs. Needs to get in here and post.

Greymarble- Leaning town. I like the reasoning on Final Destination, and his reluctant conclusion that UB is probably town in his ISO post 10 and 12 feels really town to me.

Untrod Stranger- Could be tunneling town at this point. I don’t get why he’s so uber-committed to getting frog lynched that he’s willing to overcommit so heavily to the wagon and willing to mow down everyone who’s even remotely in his way, pretty much without any regard to facts or reason, and it’s especially odd considering that his case on frog really isn’t strong. Still, town tunnel like that so often I can’t really call it a scumtell.

BeaverWeasel-Has been mostly useless. Has been voting Pathetic all game and I have no idea why. Has also been lurking. If there’s one lurkerscum in this game, it might be this guy.

Unicorn Brethren- I think they’re probably town. A bunch of different people posting from this account, but they all give good vibes, they all make sense to me, in different ways.

DaSpotthatkillsu- Borderline scummy.

Summery:
Town: Ether.
Leaning town: Greymarble, frog, unicorn.
Null-ish: Gummybear, US.
Lurking: Mrs Flay, Balam, Reck.
Lurkerscum: Balam.
Borderline Scummy: DaSpot
Scummy: Final Destiation.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I am of the opinion that YFC, as Fate pointed out, is off. I dislike the feel surrounding the Y[os]FC / Ether buddying, and I get the feeling of YFC tying to latch on to a town Ether. Ethe likes being affirmed, so I feel the level at which Yos joined with Ether while not really talking about anything else and letting it slide by is suspect.

"Buddying" is a terrible scumtell. If someone is obviously town, and there's multiple people voting for them, I'm sure as hell going to say so. Giving reads on people who are town is a good idea anyway. In any case, pro-town people should work together, and when multiple pro-town people figure out each other's alignment and form a pro-town voting block, it makes it much harder for scum to win.

I don't know who ever came up with the idea "hey, whenever person A says person B is town it's scummy", but they were wrong. The whole taboo on defending someone or saying when you think they're town is just bad mafia theory.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Also, I've always found it amusing how absolutely predictable it is that, whenever I call out a bunch of lurkers, one of them almost always suddenly appears out of nowhere within a half hour of being called out and votes for me.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

bah, I keep doing that. I'll try to repost stuff I post with the wrong account here to make it easier for people doing iso's.

It is less your level of saying Ether is town and more the wholesale agreement with pretty much everything Ether was saying at the time regarding FD without giving anything more than glazed commentary on things not spoken about by Ether (at the time, not as of current).

Meh; at the time, I was basically just looking for a wagon to join, something to get the game moving. You don't need much of a reason to join an early day 1 wagon; the town's got to get started somewhere. Her arguments against gummy seemed reasonably logical; and even better, they were funny, which is a huge town-tell from Ether.

The way FD responded to pressure was what really gave me a stronger scum read on him; the early meta case against him seemed valid to me, but if it was just that, I might have moved on to a different vote by now.

I'm not really clear why Ether has decided FD is town now. If she wants to explain, that's cool; otherwise, like I just said to Cayke, let Ether wander off and be a loose cannon pointed in one direction, we'll wander off and be a loose cannon pointed in the other direction, and the scum's got to start falling out of the trees one way or the other.

-Yos

Oh, on an unrelated note; Balam, would you mind telling me who you're a hydra of, if you haven't already? Knowing that might make you easier to read.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

1: No, it didn’t. Theory is a shit reason to vote somebody, especially on someone with an exprerimental / new playstyle

I would say she didn't vote you for "theory", exactly, she voted you for anti-town play, and at the time I agreed with her. I tend to agree that your reluctance to give any reads at all, even for days, when you can't confer probably is anti-town, in that it both stalls the game and makes you harder to read, but now that I've gone back and done an ISO on you, it's consistent with your earlier thought process, so I don't think it's a scum-tell.

Still, in the future; if you can't confer, but have time to post, I would like to see you post some relevant thoughts on who might be scum in the game. Basically, I don't care if you post together or post separately, but if you can't post together then having at least one player in your hydra playing the game is much better for the town then not hearing anything relevant from either of you. Don't worry so much about contradicting yourself, that doesn't really matter.

3: This sounds like you’re trying really hard to defend your townread on her. I can understand that… but it’s certainly not the first explanation that comes to mind.

Huh? What other explanation is there?

Take a look at her posts. She was the only person voting for you, and it's pretty obvious that her goal was not to convince other people to vote for you, or to get a quick lynch through on you, or whatever; her goal was to get a rise out of you, to force to to react to her, in order to try to get a read on you.

I mean, look at her posts here. First she tries to find out who you suspect. When she won't answer you, she says this:

I'm afraid you'll catch me if I don't rehearse all of my stances first.

-Ether

She eventually votes you, and then when you ask her why, she says this:

Well, I'm gonna sleep now. Long day tomorrow. I guess you two can confer and figure it out.

-Ether

She's not trying to lynch you here, or trying to build a case or whatever. She's trying to get a read on you, trying to make you react or do something in-thread that will allow her to understand you, trying to pressure you into placing a vote or something, and basically is trying to piss you off if necessary in order to get you to react. At this point in the game, you were being entirely unreadable, and possibly deliberately so, so she decided to try and pick a fight with you to get a read on you; basically, she's trying to piss you off here so you'll do something, anything. That's a risky, and entirely pro-town, move; scum have no reason to make enemies like that.

I thought all of that was fairly obvious from her posting, and that doesn't have anything to do with meta. I'm not surprised it's hard for you to see it, since it's you she's picking a fight with here, but I was confused why Fate didn't see it.

4 & 5: We’ve never played with Ether before, and this is pretty obviously meta-based info.

Yeah, that is true, but I was under the impression that Ether's meta was fairly well known.

Anyway, all in all, I like this gummy-post. They do seem to be honestly trying to get a read on people, and seem to be trying to read people fairly without regard to how it benefits them or not; for example, if Gummy was scum, I'd expect they'd be encouraging UT to attack me for tactical reasons, not calling him out on false statements. All in all, good vibes.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Heh. You really don't like being voted, do you Fate?

The fact is, I voted you for legitimately scummy behavior on your part, and I don't intend to unvote you unless I have a better suspect, or a reason to think my earlier on you was wrong. Just because Ether looks town, doesn't mean I'm going to unvote you just because she did. I'll unvote you if and when I think it's the right thing to do; right now, the only people who I might willing to vote instead of you are some of the scummy looking lurkers, since we're probably dealing with lurkerscum here.

Honestly, your claim that I'm not scumhunting is just strange. I went through and spent hours trying to get a read on every single person in the game. All you've done has been a series of bad OMGUS votes on people; first on Ether, who's obviously town, then on Frog, who is also probably town, and now on me. That's not scumhunting, that's you flipping out on people because you don't like them voting for you.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

1. Ok, so we can scumhunt for the rest of the game but unless there's some magic "I AM TOWN" button, you see no reason to adapt your reads? BULLSHIT.

I change my reads and change my mind all the time. You haven't yet given me a good reason to change my mind about you, though. You just seem incredibly insulted that I didn't unvote you as soon as you posted content, which is odd, since my vote on you was never a lurker vote.

2. I didn't say you should unvote because Ether did, I said there's no EVIDENCE of you conferring with her on our read, you're avoiding debating it with her because you don't want to push her too hard, you rather just sit here and call her town.

What is this? I don't even...

Do you usually "confer" with people you think are town but who disagree with you on your reads before you cast a vote?

I went through and spent hours trying to get a read on every single person in the game.

But all you had to say about ME WAS

"scummy"

HOURS BULLSHIT MY ASS.

CAN WE GET A LYNCH ALL LIARS UP IN HERE? HE DIDNT SPEND HOURS MAKING THAT POST.

Heh. You quote that line, but you don't quote the line right before it, and thus completely removed the context that answers your own question here, huh?

Ok. I realized I didn't actually have a read on half the people in the game, so I went through and ISO's everyone I didn't have a solid read on (which was like 6 people, mostly because there are so many damn lurkers in this game).

Like I said, I decided to not take a narrow focus, and to go back and do an ISO on the about half of the people in the game I had no read on at all. The point of that post wasn't to repeat myself on points I'd already made or reads I already had, either about you, or about Dana, or about Ether, ect. And, yes, since you really seem so concerned about the time, for whatever reason, I'll tell you that it took about 2 hours, I was working on post from 4:30 to about 6:30 (with just a brief break to respond to a weird attack on me from US).

You just seem scummier and scummier here. It might just be you getting overly emotional (although I have no idea why, when you only have 2 votes on you right now) but I mean, what the hell is this?

We've come to the conclusion that if only one of FES/YOS is scum, its Yos, and that MAYBE just MAYBE FES is town

Or this?

Is he scumhunting here, (town-motivated) or DEFENDING himself? (scum motivated).

Are you seriously claiming that if I am *gasp* defending myself, that that's a scumtell?

Did someone hand you a checklist of scumtells before the game started, and dare you to make all of them before the end of day 1 or something?

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

legitimately scummy

Why the qualifier?

Well, on day 1 I'll often vote someone or join a wagon based on fairly weak or unreliable tells just because it's either the best thing I have to go on at the moment, or just to get information and get the game moving, or to pressure someone to act in a more pro-town way, ect. In this case, though, that's not true; Fate's actions so far this game are legitimately scummy.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

My personal read is that YosFlavouredCayke is scum for, basically, stroking Pathetric; to me, it reads like grooming a potential ally, and town have no business doing that.

Eh; there's really no reason I would do that. If anything, me defending them would normally be more likely to make Patrick, at least, more paranoid about me then to do anything else.

My main goal was less "let me go and defend Ether" and more "FD is doing what looks like an OMGUS vote on someone who to me looks incredibly obvtown, I think that's scummy". I didn't bother to explain why Ether looked pro-town at first; honestly, I thought it was so obvious that I didn't need to. I wasn't really intending to "defend" her at all, more to use my read on her as a way to find scum.

I only really went into detail when more people started voting Ether, which confused and worried me, and then when multiple people (including you) asked me about why I thought Ether was so obvtown.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

So, jumping off the FES wagon, who has more support and you you think is TOWNTOWNLOL, to vote YOU doesn't change your mind?

It might, if your vote for me had any real logic behind it, and if your voting pattern in general wasn't so obviously OMGUS driven. Most of your votes, though, seem far more concerned with trying to punish people for voting you and trying to get them to back off of your wagon then with actually finding scum.

The pattern behind your votes is obvious, FD, and it's really scummy. Your argument against me is pretty obviously bunk, just like your vote against ether and your vote for frog. It really looks like you just decided "I really wanna for for Yos now, because I want to get him off my back, what bullshit justification can I invent for it."

The fuck? When did we say that? We found it odd you weren't DEBATING your read on us with Ether, since we're apparently your top scumread who's done all sorts of "legit scummy" things... but you're not willing to contest this with Ether. You don't wanna get in a fight with a townie you have deep in your pocket.

Why would I debate you with Ether? The main reason to argue with someone is to figure out their alignment.

You did not spend two hours making an ISO on that many people in a game this size, AND TO ONLY have "scummy" as your reasoning for why your vote was on this slot. You. Did. Not.

um...yes, I just did. Obviously so; you should be able to tell that just from the time stamps of my posts, in fact. It takes a while to do an ISO on 6 people.

At this point, i was actually trying to avoid tunneling, and was trying to get a read on everyone else in the game. Also, I'm trying to figure out where, logically, the scum group might be.

I notice you don't seem to even comment on any of the reads or observations I did make, which I find pretty bizarre in this situation. It seems like the only thing you care about is my read on you, and how you don't like that it's scummy; you basically have no interest in commenting on anything else.

Are you seriously claiming that if I am *gasp* defending myself, that that's a scumtell?

Yes, you defending yourself as a clear focus of your play, moreso than scumhunting, as well as your focus on budying people, is a scumtell. I'm not going to debate why scumtells are scumtells with you, because you'll obviously deny it.

Every pro-town person should defend themselves whenever attacked. You sure as hell have.

The difference between my play and yours is that I spend some time defending myself, and spend some time scumhunting, trying to find out people's alignments. (As much townhunting as scumhunting, actually, but the result is the same.) You, on the other hand, spend ALL of your time defending yourself, trying to get people to unvote you, and you DISGUISE that AS scumhunting. You pretend that you're scumhunting, but it's pretty obvious that your only motive is to discredit people who want to lynch you.

What I've been doing is pro-town; pro-town people should defend themselves, should respond to attacks and questions ect, but shouldn't ever let it stop them from scumhunting, from trying to figure out people's alignments. What you've been doing is scummy as hell; scum don't care about scumhunting, obviously, so they OMGUS, they use their vote and their attacks to try to either get people off of them or discredit their attackers so other people won't listen to them.

Plus, tbh, another big reason I'm voting you at this point is that there are a lot of people that look pro-town to me, and you are not one of them. If I'm right about most or all my town reads, then the odds you are scum are petty high here; there just aren't that many likely scumgroups at this point that don't include you.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Do read Balam's post people. Its witty AND accurate! (Balam is town people.)

I also agree with most of what he says. "Paranoid Town" read on FD is something I would like to pull out and point at mostly. OH and the town read on myself and yos.

I'm going to ISO FD right here to see if I still think he's paranoid town, or if I agree with my current vote on him (placed by yos, obv).


First off, I still think you're town FD. I also think you're obnoxious TYPING LIKE THIS IN HALF OF YOUR POSTS, as well as your continous OMGUS-y votes, are dumb and anti-town.

I went through and spent hours trying to get a read on every single person in the game.

I went through and spent hours trying to get a read on every single person in the game.

I went through and spent hours trying to get a read on every single person in the game.

I went through and spent hours trying to get a read on every single person in the game.

I went through and spent hours trying to get a read on every single person in the game.

I went through and spent hours trying to get a read on every single person in the game.

But all you had to say about ME WAS

"scummy"

HOURS BULLSHIT MY ASS.

CAN WE GET A LYNCH ALL LIARS UP IN HERE? HE DIDNT SPEND HOURS MAKING THAT POST.

[NOT AGM APPROVED]

Yos posted "scummy" because you had been the focus for a lot of our posts, so he felt as though those reasons were already OUT there.

READING DO YOU SPEAK IT.[JD tagline stolen without permission][Another note, I can be annoying too!]

BALAM! FROSTY! DO NOT THINK YOS IS TOWN BECAUSE YOS HAS "Logic"! ITS EASY TO HAVE LOGIC WHEN CALLING PEOPLE HE KNOWS ARE TOWN ARE TOWN, WHICH IS THE MAIN FOCUS OF HIS PLAY. LOOK AT THE LOGICAL HOLES IN THEONLY MISLYNCH HES FELT LIKE PUSHING THIS GAME-ON US! LOOK AT IT AND BEHOLD THE SCUMBAGGERY!

-twitch.

You are REALLY getting on my nerves here. Telling people things like that is perfectly fine, but yelling and commanding it to be true is just you being obnoxious.


My current read on you is "fucktarded town."

You spout nonsense everywhere, in capslocks mind you, and imo, that is just poor play. Your point doesnt come across any better LIKE THIS. TRUST ME I'VE TRIED TO PLAY GAMES LIKE THIS. IT DOESNT WORK.

With that, I disagree with my other head of Yos on his scum read on you, and US is my top suspect.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Cayke, can you please convince Yosarian to vote Mr. Tripod? It saddens us deeply how blinded he has become.

-Ether

I'm trying Ether, I am.

-Cayke

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Youre all wrong. Frogito is your scum.

Look at their posts.

All that Frogito has done is wait for bandwagons to grow just big enough to hop on unceremoniously. Has no strong opinions, but yet jumps on the biggest wagons at the time.

The posts are clearly used to state that they are around, but not really contributing much other than a walking meatvote.

And the cincher is that insencere warning about the L-1. That line sounded like a surreptious invitation for someone to hammer. Notice he wasnt afraid of the quickhammer, otherwise he wouldnt have voted. So then why put up a warning?

Vote:Frogito Ergo Scum

Hey FrogJerky, dont be trying that arrogant asshole "RTFT" bullshit on me, it doesnt work.

Your single vote change is enough to convince me of rampant opportunism.

Sit on it long enough to not arouse suspicion and then hop on the more likely wagon now.

The meta argument is also bullshit. In fact all of these bandwagons are merely railroaded contraptions. NONE of them have any merit.

And we never said hat Froggy was bandwagoning A LOT either. Nice attempt at misinformation there. He hopped on two wagons that were highly opportunistic. Thats more than enough to attempt to skim the surface and hide in the scummy shadows.

It seems like, to me at least, earlier you were 100% sure FES was scum because of that one vote then that final post i quoted seem to contradict that. Its as if that ONE JUMP was no longer your main reason for voting them.

If this is the case, what else has he done to warrant the vote? "Because i said so" is not a vaild answer.

Your single vote change is enough to convince me of rampant opportunism.

D’uhhhh… what? Single ANYTHING =/= rampant. Sorry, try again.

Gummy has a very good point.

Rampant:

a : marked by a menacing wildness, extravagance, or absence of restraint <rampant rumors>
b : profusely widespread <rampant weeds>

Profusely widespread = One time? Kthen...

Your response to this:

Durrwhat? Throwing an opportunistic vote means you're being opportunistic. You're disagreeing with a modifier, not the idea itself. If you don't think it's opportunistic then prove why. If you do agree that it's opportunistic then I'm not sure what the issue is here. An opportunistic vote is way worse than us using hyperbole (which is our meta, by the way, so get used to it).That with your vote is buuuuuuuullshit. Why exactly are we your #1 scum read?

The words you use to describe things tend to reflect exactly how you feel. soooooooooooo yeah.

Our case on Froggy still stands. Opportunistic voting, lousy post content (still!), and now you can even add strategic lurking to the list. But you all rather wave your dicks out and piss on each other than catch the scum.

Lousy post content (!) and ONE opportunistic jump =/= scum.

U Needz Bettah Case mmmmmmk?

-cayke

[YosFlavouredCayke]

[AGM]

Holy fuck ... Reck and dram, replace out or post. There's really nothing more to say at this point with so much input missing.

[Fate Approved]

There's...nothing to say? You don't even want to respond to the case I made against you, or have any thoughts on the opinions of my other head, or anything?

My other head wanted to move the vote off of you and onto US, but I really wanted to wait until we at least heard a response from you to my last post before we moved our vote. But, I guess you're just not going to make a response at all? Considering how freaked out you were by me NOT making a case on you in my "general analysis of the game" post, I'm really confused by your (lack of) response here, unless it's tactically motivated.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I am dissapointed that there are less YosCayke/Pathetric votes. Those two have had their heads so far up eachothers asses they will either claim masons or one of them is scum.

Are you mason-fishing? Because "X thinks Y is town, and Y thinks X is town so they must be scum together or masons" is a terrible argument. Much more likely is the "X and Y are both town and have played with each other so many times they can accurately read each other" possibility you completely ignore for some reason.

His early defense of Ether is lulzy and seems to be trying to chainsaw. "Obvtown" is not the correct way to describe her.

Why not?

In any case, calling my attack on Fate a "chainsaw" is just stupid. An attack can only be a "chainsaw" attack if you're saying Ether is scum with me, and just later in this very post you call Ether town.

If any pro-town person sees person A make a scummy looking attack on pro-town looking person B, they're likely to vote person A for it. That's not a "chainsaw" attack, that's called "scumhunting".

Yos' 236 is funny, for the reasons Equi pointed out early (Balam is :goodposting: to balam is Lurkerscum in one post. Also, calls us lurkerscum then leaves us out of the summary.)

Huh. You are correct; my summery should have listed Balam as lurker and you as lurkerscum. I must have switched them by mistake when making the final list. It's odd that you're the first person to notice that.

I also find it funny that YFC backs up on his hailing of Ether when he is called out on it. He goes from "Ether is Obvtown" to "I don't have to trust her" and tries to qualify it with the wifom of "they are more likely to suspect me by calling them obvtown"

What the hell are you talking about?

Patrick-Ether are obvtown. Anyone who reads their posts should know that. I've never said I didn't trust her, or anything like that.

That last sentence was a response to the attack that I was trying to "buddy" with them "to get them on my side" or whatever. There's no reason I would do that, especally since it wouldn't be that likely to actually work.

Of the two, Pathetric is actually reading town to me. Especially during the Gummy Debacle of Page 5. It comes across as a TvT theory arguement (in which we agree with Gummy)

Yes, they're pretty obviously town in that argument. Me saying that is what you're ATTACKING me for, which makes this whole post you're making here even more bizzare.

And, yeah, that's probably a town v. town fight.

I don't understand why you're attacking me for believing something you apparently agree with.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Umm... Lolwtf?

I know yos just said this, but it needs to be said again just to point out the sheer idiocy that went into this line of thinking.

YosCayke+PatrickEther= Scum or Mason.

YosCayke is dumb for calling PatrickEther obvtown.

PatrickEther is town so YosCayke must be scum?????????????????????


Lolwtf.

Weasle went from lurker scummy-ish, to scum pulling a "case" out of thin air that makes no sense.

kthnxbai.

-cayke.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Hey, Yosarian? I know you've been keeping Cayke from voting Mr. Tripod. If you feel strongly about that, I think you'd better start discussing him with the rest of us as well.

-Ether

Eh. Basically, I think FD is almost certainty scum, while I think there's a chance UT is just tunneling town who's just wrong about everything. Cayke thinks UT is scum, and thinks FD might be tunneling town who's wrong about everything.

I wouldn't say I'm stopping her from doing anything, this is her hydra as much as it's mine. I really would rather get some kind of real response from FD before I unvote them, but honestly, I'm not expecting much from him in any case at this point. We're fairly likely to move over to US soon, though; Cayke is really convinced about him.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Hey, Gurgi. Glad to see you replacing in. You're going to be in with Fonz, is that right?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I think I'm just going to start posting as this not having an account thing is getting mighty long in the tooth.

Is an important thing to note RE: Vote issue. I think it should be allowed, but its TBM's game -shrug.

Vote: Untrod Stranger

I have decided this is the best place for our vote right now. Everyone needs to post a bit more imo.

-Cayke.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Vote:Beaver Weasel

I think this is the way to go. Tbh, I kind of feel bad that I didn't push to lynch him yesterday after that one teribad post of his; my gut really wanted to just drop everything else and try and start a new wagon on him at that point.

I still don't like the case against froggy here. It still basically just feels like FD OMGUSing because he dosn't like that froggy was tunneling on him yesterday. The argument that he's scummy because he DIDN'T join a wagon on a townie is the really bad kind of WIFOM.

That being said, I'm not as convinced as I was for most of yesterday of FD being scum. Feels like if he was scum, he'd have been more likely to use the fact that me and Cayke's reads were somewhat different at the end of the day yesterday as a BS reason to continue to attack us, instead of writing us off as probably town because of it.

Also, I wanted to ask DaSpot about this:

.... you all are idiots.

He said this after the hammer, but before the alignment reveal. Re-reading his earlier posts, he did at one point briefly mention that he thought US was pro-town, but he never really tried to defend him or argue against the wagon, even though he was around while it was building up. It just seems odd to me; DaSpot, if you guys were THAT sure that the US wagon was going to be a bad one, why didn't you try harder to stop it?

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

There are two major problems we have with YosCayke. The first being this absolute read on Patheric that's really bordering on being over-the-top. Post 166 is a good example of this, where YosCayke is not just recognizing Patheric as an obvious townie, but actually goes so far as to lambast FD for not having the same opinion. We've read over this and the surrounding posts several times, and every time we do this sticks out as awkward and clumsy.

I think I've explained my town read on Patheric half a dozen times by this point; if you have any specific questions, I'll be glad to answer them. I would say that I'd expect most pro-town people to read Ether's attack on Gummy and think "Huh, she's probably not scum, I can't see a scum being that aggressive this early for so little personal gain here", while I'd expect a scum to look at it (especally if I'm right and both Patheric and Gummy are town) and say "Hey, there's some odd posting there, I bet I can get a mislynch through on Ether because of that, plus here's a good town v town fight going between gummy and Patheric, let's see if I can keep it going." I do think attacking Ether for those posts is something a scum is more likely to do then a town.

The second is mostly contained in post 341, where we've got this idea that YosCayke is trying to distance themselves from the growing and soon-to-be hammered US. This really cannot sit well with anyone. If YosCayke takes the same aggressive approach against FD that they did yesterday, this might serve to excuse them somewhat, but the US vote is hardly what we'd consider purposeful. How are we supposed to read this? A resigned concession for the wagon to go ahead or as a firm proponent of the wagon? Are we supposed to see it as both? This is probably not as harsh of a criticism as it’s being made to seem, it could probably even be argued that we're being a bit overcritical of the slot, but Copper is not sold on the idea that YosCayke is town.

Distance myself from US? What do you mean?

Personally, I never really was in favor of a US lynch. (In my analysis of everyone in the game, I mentioned that I thought US could be tunneling town, and marked him down as "null-ish") Cayke always was, as you can see from several of her posts.

I told Cayke before the game started that if she wants to vote someone, she should just do it; she doesn't need to ask my permission. In the same way, I vote for people without asking her permission. We actually have very similar reads on most of the people in the game, and in general, I trust her judgment; and I actually think that playing a hydra as basically a pair of masons that share one vote is generally better for the town then the "discuss everything in private and only post once you agree on everything" playstyle, even if it seems a little scitzo; it should make us easier to read, it lets us pressure different people and ask different questions, ect.

Towards the end of the day yesterday, she really wanted to vote for US, she had a very strong gut reading on him as scum, and while I still had him as basically null-ish and was never that convinced he was scum, I told her over AIM she should do what she thought was right, to vote him if and when and how she thought it was best to; my FD vote seemed to be doing absolutely nothing right then, and I thought that if she wanted to use our vote to follow her lead, she should. Although I'll admit that I didn't expect the day to end quite so suddenly after that.

(shrug) I'm guessing most heads of hydras in the game are going to sometimes have somewhat different reads on people. I don't really understand why us being honest about that in thread is a problem. If you read Cayke's posts on the subject of US (our ISO posts # 27, 28, and 29), you should be able to see where she was coming from.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Haven't had much of a chance to read through the thread in the last couple (real life) days. I will definitely read up tomorrow during my breaks from class and post sometime that night. If it doesn't happen tomorrow, thursday for sure.

^_^

-Cayke

[YosFlavouredCayke]

THE CASE AGAINST FES IS TERRIBLE.

There is no reason to think they are scum here at all. This whole wagon is just being driven by Fate not liking that he's being voted, and it's just garbage. I'm going to be really pissed if they end up getting lynched today, I really think they're probably town here, everything they've done so far this game makes sense to me, and there are posts from them I would never expect to see a scum make.

YFC, we STILL haven’t gotten a satisfactory explanation from you as to why Pathetric was obvtown, despite your insistence that you’ve explained it. If you want to point out where you’ve made it clear why they were obvtown, it would be excellent. However, I don’t see it.

Are you serious here? You really going to try to claim that I never explained why Ether was obviously town yesterdaY?

Ether's reasoning for suspecting Gummy made perfect sense, and was about as strong as you'd expect for page 5 of day 1. The fact that she was willing to wagon hop to someone else scummy in order to get pressure going is a good sign, not a bad one. Basically as soon as the game started, she ran right out onto the high wire without a net, just to get reactions and to get the game moving. And what's more, she's clearly having fun doing it; if Ether's enjoying herself in a game, you can bet money that she's town.

3: This sounds like you’re trying really hard to defend your townread on her. I can understand that… but it’s certainly not the first explanation that comes to mind.

Huh? What other explanation is there?

Take a look at her posts. She was the only person voting for you, and it's pretty obvious that her goal was not to convince other people to vote for you, or to get a quick lynch through on you, or whatever; her goal was to get a rise out of you, to force to to react to her, in order to try to get a read on you.

I mean, look at her posts here. First she tries to find out who you suspect. When she won't answer you, she says this:

I'm afraid you'll catch me if I don't rehearse all of my stances first.

-Ether

She eventually votes you, and then when you ask her why, she says this:

Well, I'm gonna sleep now. Long day tomorrow. I guess you two can confer and figure it out.

-Ether

She's not trying to lynch you here, or trying to build a case or whatever. She's trying to get a read on you, trying to make you react or do something in-thread that will allow her to understand you, trying to pressure you into placing a vote or something, and basically is trying to piss you off if necessary in order to get you to react. At this point in the game, you were being entirely unreadable, and possibly deliberately so, so she decided to try and pick a fight with you to get a read on you; basically, she's trying to piss you off here so you'll do something, anything. That's a risky, and entirely pro-town, move; scum have no reason to make enemies like that.

I thought all of that was fairly obvious from her posting, and that doesn't have anything to do with meta. I'm not surprised it's hard for you to see it, since it's you she's picking a fight with here, but I was confused why Fate didn't see it.

4 & 5: We’ve never played with Ether before, and this is pretty obviously meta-based info.

Yeah, that is true, but I was under the impression that Ether's meta was fairly well known.

Seriously, you couldn't find those posts? It's especially odd since the second one there was directed to your other head, and your other head agreed with me afterwords.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

YFC, to clarify what quadz was talking about:
He thought it was odd that you you thought Pathetric was obvtown and expected everyone else to see the same obvtown tells for Ether as you did. While I accepted your defense against her because I could see town motives for what she did, it was still weird that it seemed like the meta you had on her was supposed to just be blanketed over to everyone else who thought she was scummy. Hence why it was "unsatisfactory," so to speak.

Though that comment came AFTER this observation:

YFC’s continued insistence that Pathetric is obvtown is becoming really frustrating. It should be apparent that nobody else thinks so. (However, the fact that YFC does lean so strongly to

ebwop: Pathetic

being obv-town leads me to think that YFC may have been helping direct the NK)

Nothing to say about that?

-Singer

(shrug) I can't really explain how or why anyone who's pro-town could have or would have had any doubt about her alignment on day 1, if they bothered to read her posts and use their brains. If you want to know why certain other people "didn't think she was town", you should ask them; I certainly can't explain it.

As for your second point, it seems pretty self-evidently silly. What reason would I have as scum for wanting Ether dead?

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Eh. I tend to do a lot of townhunting and process of elimination scumhunting. Clearing 10 people as town is just as good as finding 3 scum.

Speaking of scumhunting, gummy's comment earlier got me thinking about the motivation behind the Ether kill. Considering her suspicions yesterday, and how she was likely to vote today, Ether being killled makes Beaver look worse, and Froggy (and, to a lesser extent, FD) look better. She was pretty clear in her intent to lynch Beaver today.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

So you think jumping a wagon in the manner they did isn't scummy?

The spot wagon? No, not really. I'd expect CES, at least, to quickly and agressivly join early-game bandwagons without actually explaining why; he's definatly part of that school of thought. And Spot was looking scummy at that point; for someone who's inclined to agressivly push early day 1 wagons, that's one I'd expect them to like.

(Edit: I just realized that you probably mean the FD vote. I also don't agree that that vote was scummy; FD's response to being voted looked incredibly suspicious to me, and the fact that Froggy had the same reaction to FD's defense makes sense to me. )

Also, please remind me of what these 'scum wouldn't do it' posts are.

Well, for one example, this chain of reasoning feels like one I wouldn't expect to see from scum:

Congrats ether, that's a neat little game of semantics you're playing there.

What do you think I was trying to say?

We were talking about the presented quotes in #120. We originally thought the contradiction was imaginary but after AIM-fueled reflection came to the conclusion that the point of view Gummybear puts forth does contain an inconsistency. We however feel the inconsistency is, if anything, genuine and not the result of intentionally taking an anti-town position. We dislike the amount of reasoning put forth in #120 since, as evidenced by our position, we don't feel the relevant conclusion follows as straightforwardly as the lack of reasoning suggests.

He starts off calling out Ether on her position on Gummy's "contradiction", calling it semantics. He then thought and discussed it with his other head, and then came to the conclusion that it might not be just semantics. But he still thought that even if it was a contradiction, it probably wasn't an "intentionally anti-town" one, and still said he disliked Ether's post.

That's a very nuanced and thoughtful position; he realized he was partly wrong, but still didn't agree that Gummy's actions were actually scummy, so he said so, and expressed some concern about Ether's seeming to take for granted that it was without explaining. The whole thing looks like a pro-town person who's both honestly trying to figure out what is wrong, and honestly trying to point out what he sees as a logical flaw in a case being made; it's not the kind of post I expect scum to make. I expect scum to be much less likely to undermine their own point by admitting they were incorrect; I'd expect scum to either really go for the throat and just try to hammer the attack against Ether home, or else back off and try to disengage from the fight. He didn't do either, and I don't really see why scum would act that way.

Also, the "I didn't realize FD was at lynch -1 when I made the post, but now I am aware of it, and I want to make sure everyone else knows it" dosn't really feel like a scum move either; if FD is town, hypo-Froggy-scum would have put themselves in a more defendable position if they had just claimed that they didn't know he was at lynch -1; plus, Froggy-scum likely would have hoped that someone else didn't notice he was at lynch -1 and hammered accidentally. Yeah, a scum COULD do something like that to just try to get townie-points, but I don't really think that's the case; it dosn't look like it, and it dosn't feel like it. (Note that this is all if FD is town; in the other scenario, FD-scum, then I think there's no chance at all of Froggy-scum. There's no way those two are scum together.)

In any case, most of Froggy's posts look reasonable to me. I generally know who they suspect and who they don't, their actions make sense to me, and it just doesn't seem like they're that interested in self-preservation. (For example, the two biggest wagons today are beaverweasel and froggy, and yet he's shown absolutely no interest in supporting the other wagon, and went as far as to call beaver's action "null", while continuing to stick to his guns and go after FD despite the massive blowback he's getting here. If he was scum, I'd expect him to at the very least be positioning himself to where he could get on the beaverwagon if necessary.)

[YosFlavouredCayke]

...Yos where the fuck are your scum reads???

...forget FES, the only person you found scummy thus far was a mislynch

You think US is the "only person I found scummy thus far"? Really?

then you start on beaverweasel, an easy target.

Beaverweasel is probably scum. When someone lurks for 90% of the day, and the few posts they make are scummy, they're generally a great lynch; most of the time I'd rather lynch a scummy looking lurker then someone active.

I mean, I'm certanly willing to be convinced by the replacement, but for now, he's still my #1 suspect. If you think beaverweasel is town, you need to tell me why you think that, because I don't see it at all.

What the hell does "easy target" mean, anyway? Every time I've seen someone say "easy target", it seems to mean "Player X is attacking player Y because player Y looks really scummy".

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Fonz, FD: Now that it's over, I highly recommend you look at CES's early day 1 play in Oldy mafia, where he was pro-town, to get an idea of his meta.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15653&user_select=1563

Just look at his early posts in ISO.

Jumping on early wagons, even big early wagons, without giving much in the way of reasons, is completely in character for CES-town. Generally speaking, when he's town, he'll jump on wagons that I would be inclined to agree with, and he doesn't bother to explain why.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

And you're giving him a pass because of meta? What the HELL. "CES town jumps on wagon as towns, ergo herpderp if he does it EVER hes town"

Not at all. What I was saying was that Fonz's case against him, which was basically that CES jumped on a large wagon early on day 1 without giving much reasoning of his own, is not a reliable scum tell for CES.

On an unrelated note, Cayke just told me on AIM that she is going to be V/LA for a while, she's got some stuff going on and isn't going to have a chance to get caught up on the mafia game. I'll still be around though.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I'm seriously considering moving my vote over to DaSpot here, although it'll depend on the quality of posting we get from SVT once he catches up.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Beaverweasel is probably scum. When someone lurks for 90% of the day, and the few posts they make are scummy, they're generally a great lynch; most of the time I'd rather lynch a scummy looking lurker then someone active.

Yos DOES seem to be basing more reads on meta than he should…

Huh? Nothing in the beaver case has anything to do with meta at all; i don't even know for sure who Beaver was (afaik, the mastin thing was just speculation). The fact that it's generally better to lynch a scummy looking lurker then an active player is just common sense.

Some of my reads used meta, of course, especially some of the town ones. if you've played with someone, you'd better use meta when you read them.

Anyway, I'm still waiting to hear some content from SVT. I understand that it takes a while to catch up on a game like this, but I do not want to consider unvoting them until SVT gives me a reason to.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

(Equinox)

We're looking forward to seeing reads from GummyBear soon. Also, AGar wants to see YosFlavouredCayke's scum reads (aside from Final Destination) coming from YosFlavouredCayke themselves instead of "lolobv" from Lord Fonzi; he doesn't care if it's a "They smell funny" kind of read.

Also, Super Vanilla Townie, patience is wearing thin.

Well, my top scum reads are still SVT (nothing he's done has counteracted the incredibly strong scum read I get off of Beaver's late day 1 posting) and DaSpot, who's been scummy all game and his recent behavior is just terrible. It's entirely possible they're scum together, DaSpot has seemed to be activly trying to prevent a Beaver-lynch today, for reasons he hasn't really explained, but they are each quite scummy on their own merits in any case.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Uh... and that's a scumtell how? The way you phrased it here reads like "Voting Ether D1 is always bad" so thanks for not explaining that and I'll let you know that anyone can be scum d(''d).

No, I didn't feel the need to fully explain it right away; it's often better to just make a statement like that to get reactions, to see who falls over themselves defending the person I'm attacking, or attacking me, or whatever, and then explain it in more detail later, which I did.

And, for the record, when Ether plays like she did this game, she is town, without fail.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

The lack of activity doesn't surprise me at all. With so many people playing as "one" person, they must talk to each other first then decide on content which bogs the game down.

In other news, my life is slowly getting back together.

-Cayke

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Posting because QT need attention (HINT)

also,

DaSpot has seemed to be activly trying to prevent a Beaver-lynch today

.... has anyone else noticed this? anyone?

nice try there yoscayke. nice. try.

*woosh*

So...what? Are you going to explain why you were opposed to a beaver lynch at the moment you attacked me for voting for him, or perhaps are you going to tell us what you think of Beaver's alignment? Or are you going to deny that you were defending Beaver?

What the hell does "nice try" mean? I'm trying to figure out your alignment, and "nice try" isn't especially helpful here.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I think it's a good vote, because I think he's most likely scum based on his play. If you think it's not a good vote, you should explain why you think he's town.

Also, the "he was going to get replaced" argument is terrible. You're saying I should AVOID voting for someone because they're a lurker? In any case, while he lurked for most of day 1, he did post a bunch of times at the end of the day; there was no reason to think at the start of day 2 when I voted for him that he was ever going to be replaced.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

To be clear: I don't necessarily think it's scummy for you to oppose the beaverweasel wagon. I think it's scummy as hell for you to oppose it in a subtle and backhanded way and then never explain why you think he's town.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

So, you're just going to not answer the question and instead make a completly BS case against me that makes no sense?

If you want to OMGUS me with a case that makes sense, I'll be glad to respond to it, but pretty much every line of that case was nonsense. "He didn't post much, but there was no WAY he was lurking, NONE." Right after in your last post, where you seemed to suggest that it was obvious he was going to be replaced? Wtf are you talking about? If he's not posting, then that means he's lurking; that's what lurking

And pretty much every other line in your post is a deliberate misrepresentation of what I said. I didn't "blame you for the US wagon", I said it was incredibly scummy for you to declare him town AFTER he was lynched but before the flip, but not defend him BEFORE he was lynched. And that is incredibly scummy; the most likely explanation is that you are scum who already knew his alignment, but didn't actually want to stop his lynch.


Whatever.

Vote:DaSpot

Your partner SVT can hang tommorow. You need to die today.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

EBWOP:

"You lobbied for a easy lynch and he replaced YOU STILL HAVE NOT UNVOTED."

Why the hell would I unvote him before his replacement says anything useful?

If person A looks like scum, and he's replaced by person B, person B is still probably scum. The alignment dosn't change just because he's been replaced.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

SVT is not scum.

Get your vote off.

Ok, so you've finally admitted that I was right and you are intentionally defending beaver. That's something, at least. So, now, why are you defending that slot? What have they done that makes you think they might be town?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

CONTENT

They have not active lurked They put too much down to be active lurking.

BOTH OF THEM, BEAVER AND SVT

If it was just lurking, that would be bad enough, but it's significantly worse then that. It's that when Beaver did post, his posts look like scum posts.

Look at him in iso. In his ISO post #3, he made that scummy vote for Ether. Over the next 12 days, he kept that horrible vote on a townie in place; he made 4 posts, but all of them were useless garbage. He took the time to write paragraphs explaining why he wasn't going to say what players made up his hydra, but didn't say anything useful or relevent at all.

In his next post he calls Ether "decitful" for calling him a newb, and then follows it up with a completly garbage attack on me. (wtf? He keeps his identity secret, then says she's lying about how much expernece he has?), I don't know why he was attacking me, other then that I thought Ether was obvtown and he didn't. The one decent observation in this post was that I mixed up him and Balam in my summery post, but then he somehow takes that obvious typograpical error and acts like it's a scum tell. This is also the post that starts out with the masonfishing "Either Ether and Yos are masons, or they're scum", goes into "I think Ether is probably town", and then votes for me. There is so much wrong with this, I don't even know where to begin.

My best guess here is that Beaver was scum who was afraid me and Ether were masons. He was trying to get me to admit that or deny it in that horribly worded and scummy attack post there, and then when I wouldn't answer, he killed Ether because he thought she was a mason.

Anyway, he made a few other posts, but they were garbage. He calls US "incredibscum" but dosn't vote him, and asks in the same post for what the case against him is. And then he repeated his masonfishing garbage.

So, he lurked for 90% of the day, and when he posted, it was to vote for a townie (Ether) for stupid reasons, to keep his vote on that townie while refusing to comment on anything for a week and a half, and then to vote me for calling Ether a townie, while rolefishing, contradicting himself, and generally acting like newb scum. Now, please, explain to me how from that you got a town read off of him.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

WIFOM. Scum can kill someone to frame, PR hunt, or just for the hell of it. I dislike discussing reasons for nightkills, because it's never very useful.

Not in the current meta. The current meta is "town never talk about the reasons behind nightkills, so scum generally can get away with killing off whoever suspects them with impunity, without worrying about how it looks." Town should be analyzing nightkill motives more then they are now. Granted, there can in theory be a ton of WIFOM, but if towns at least consider the obvious nightkill motives, that is going to either catch scum or else make it harder for scum to directly influence the day-game with their nightkills, and either way, it'll result in more town wins.

You are right, of course, about the possibility of PR hunting. In fact, it was your predecessor, Beaver, who was openly speculating in thread that Ether was a mason.

-Yos

Bah, I keep posting with the wrong account in this game.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yeah; not long ago in this game I just linked to a game I just finished with him, when he was town.

He spent one long post where he attacked DaSpot and said he would "compromise on a daspot wagon", while he wouldn't compromise on most other wagons. Then, when a DaSpot wagon happened, he joined it, like he just said he would. What's so hard to read about that?

You can read a lot from a vote, from when someone votes, how they vote, what the context of the vote is, ect. It requires a little thought, but you can actually get a lot more information from a post that's just:

Vote: X

and nothing else then you can get from someone who makes posts that's a lot of gibberjabber but dosn't really say anything new and dosn't vote.

PPE: Sorry, Lord Fonzi. Didn't even realize I was posting from the wrong account until you said so. In fact, I was about to make a third post from Yosarian2 when I saw your post pop up.

To help out people doing ISO reads later in the game, I'll repost my last two posts in here. If you already read them, then ignore this.

But why now? The timing doesn't seem to fit with any honest appraisal of the game. You stayed on FD far longer than it was doing any good. So one might think, fine, they're tunneling. But if you're really tunneling, why wouldn't you wait until the last possible moment to change your vote? So it looks like you tried to look like you were tunneling to justify the earlier wagon hop, but then dropped the tunnel as soon as there was a viable counterwagon to your own. Which says playing to survive to me.

That's not how I read it. They were unwilling to vote for Beaver when that was the main other wagon, because they thought beaver was town. On the other hand, they made very clear back when DaSpot had no votes that they'd be willing to lynch him:

FinalDestination is not getting lynched today. Even if he is scum, your vote is not helping to lynch scum. You know this.

Frankly, none of our top suspects have a lot of votes. We're not going to compromise onto a wagon we view as strictly worse than our current wagon unless we have some pressing reason to - either because we believe the pressure will give interesting reactions or because there's a deadline or because the wagon isn't that much worse than our current one.

We would compromise onto a daspot wagon.

We may have been 3rd in the vote count for FES but who came up with that good as balls case? hmmm... oh right us.

If you're going to make this claim, back it up.

P.S. Yes, you were pushing the wagon.

Frogito Ergo Sum, in post 450, you pointed out a number of things from DaSpotthatkillsu's behavior toward Unicorn Brethren early on Day 1. Would the possibility that those 3 posts you linked in the first paragraph came from 2 different heads make any difference to your read?

'
No, it makes no difference to our read. We actually discussed it together when discussing daspot and came to the conclusion that one head is probably backtracking for the other's awful position.

Note that this attack on DaSpot, and this expressed willingess to vote for him, came at a point when daspot had zero votes. Hardly looks like a real attempt to get a counterwagon going.

I was expecting the FES jump on to the DaSpot wagon; it was quite clear that he was willing to do so from his previous post. The fact that people like Grey are attacking him for it now makes me wonder if people actually are even reading FES's posts. Grey's "FES is unreadable" comment is especially odd, and I'd like to hear it explained.

We apologize profusely for taking forever to post again. :/ Real life sucks.

YFC’s 413 is not good. You continue to insist that your obvtown read on Pathetric should’ve been agreed upon by everyone, which is nonsensical at best. Due to the simple fact that not everyone (I don’t remember how many it was, but I don’t think there were very many) agreed with that read, you should know that it’s clearly not obvious.

(shrug) I still hold that any decent pro-town player who was paying proper attention to the game should have got an obvtown read of of Ether. I also still think that everyone who voted her on day 1 should explain themselves, because I still don't understand any reasonable pro-town thought process that could have lead to the incorrect conclusion of "Ether is scum". I don't know how to make this any more clear.

Your presistance in attacking me for getting a correct town read off of someone who's basically legendary for being easy to get correct town reads off of is becoming increasingly odd here.

As to your second point: You thought she was obvtown. What better reason is there for scum to kill someone?

That's possible, sure. That being said, she did get 3 votes at one point. Also, her clearly stated intention was to push for a Beaver lynch today; scum are always going to take that kind of thing into account, and if scum wanted a beaver mislynch, there's no reason they couldn't have left her alive and killed her the next day instead.

Is this kind of thing a 100% reliable scum tell? Of course not. But if you don't think that scum take that kind of thing into account at least to some extent when making their kill choices, you're crazy.

That said, YosC, can you please give your read on Gummybear?

By the end of day 1, I had a mild pro-town read on gummybear, for reasons I explained back then.

That being said, gummy's day 2 posting has been pretty terrible all around. Gummy bear has been slowly drifting down all day into and through my null category, and I'd currently consider them borderline scummy.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Okay, this half of the hydra is getting spotty (get it?) internet access, but I'll keep it short. The people on our wagon are:
A guy who OMGUS'd because we were supposedly OMGUS'ing
A guy who FoS'd us because a post "seemed suspicious" despite his admitting that the opposite would have been scummier
A guy who we've been trying to get lynched for this whole day

So...don't listen to them.

I asked you why you were defending Beaver, and you invented a whole bullshit case against me rather then answer my question, at least at first. That is OMGUS, at least in the general sense; you were attacking me as a way to defend yourself (or, in this case, to avoid having to explain yourself). OMGUS dosn't just mean "you're voting me because I voted you", it can be any behavior along the lines of using fake and insincere scumhunting to counterattack someone who is attacking you.

And now you're doing it again here. Rather then respond to the logical reasons to suspect you, you're just trying to attack everyone who's attacking you. Your second one is especially bad:

A guy who FoS'd us because a post "seemed suspicious" despite his admitting that the opposite would have been scummier

since you're trying to discredit SVT now because he voted you, even though your last several posts have been defending him.



By the way, you still have yet to explain this post:

Posting because QT need attention (HINT)

also,

DaSpot has seemed to be activly trying to prevent a Beaver-lynch today

.... has anyone else noticed this? anyone?

nice try there yoscayke. nice. try.

*woosh*

Now that you've admitted that you were, in fact, actively trying to defend beaver and prevent a beaver lynch, can you explain why you reacted this way to me pointing this out? If you were defending beaver because you honestly think he's town, why were you so you reluctant to just say so and explain why, instead of responding with this "Nice try" bs, or with the BS case you tried to use in your next post to avoid answering the question? It really looks to me like you wanted to defend beaver, but didn't want anyone to notice you were doing so.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I talked with Yos about the game and his read on DaSpot is solid. I still have yet to go through and thoroughly read the game, but I'm at the last set of exams before the stretch to finals. After this weekend i hope I can get back in full swing of this game.

-cayke.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

You know, Fonzy, this is the second time I've specifically directed a post towards you about a problem I have with your Froggy case, and both times now you just blithly went along without even acknowledging I said anything. It's starting to seem a little odd to me. If you don't agree with my last post, that's fine, but I'd like to know why; other then that comment about me posting from the wrong account, I don't know why you disagree with me. You just seem to want to push for a claim/lynch (or, I guess, at least one of your heads does), and don't seem to care that I just shot down your most recent justification for it. I don't get it.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Not just that they'd listed it as a secondary suspect; they'd actually specifically said in their previous post that they'd be willing to compromise on a DaSpot lynch, while not willing to compromise on several other possible lynches. And, in fact, their previous behavior had strongly demonstrated that they were not opportunistic at all; the opposite, in fact, they were unwilling to support the beaver wagon even when it seemed likely to cost them their lives. (I suppose this doesn't apply if you think Froggy is scum with SVT; but if that's the only way Froggy can be scum, then it doesn't make sense to lynch Froggy before ST).

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yos's 615 is ridiculously WIFOM-y.

What the hell is WIFOM-y about it?

I thought Ether was clearly town on day 1, and I didn't understand then why anyone would suspect her. I would like the people that came to the incorrect conclusion that she was scum on day 1 to explain how they did that, because it baffles me.

What's even more baffling is your continued attacks on me for correctly reading Ether as town on day 1.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Btw: reason # 174 why we need to lynch DaSpot today:

quote="DaSpotthatkillsu"]
I know of VERY few roles for which not claiming at L-1 with the pressure still on like this would be actually pro-town. Spit it out, man. A claim is THE ONLY WAY (barring investigations by other players) I will ever believe FES is town.[/quote]

Can we please just kill this scum?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

@Yos...we're not "continually attacking you for your Ether-town read." We mentioned it and clarified it a couple times.
You say that in response to you 615 but this is at least the second time now that you've used words like "continually" or "persistently" to make it seem like us delving into answers we're not satisfied with is scummy.

Let's say a high percentage of your posts have attacked me on the subject. You've made 6 posts where you brought it up as a point against me, and you've only made 30 posts total, about half of which had little to no content; when someone mentions something in 5% of their posts all game, that's pretty persistent. IF you want to bicker about what the term "continually", whatever; you haven't done anything "continually", since you've lurked so much, but this is one thing you still keep bringing up, and it's frankly bizarre.

The WIFOM part comes with saying that you think "everyone should've known Ether was town" and yet they clearly didn't (which we've said before so that's enough of that)

Well, I strongly suspect that at least some of the people who claimed to suspect Ether were scum (Remember, the people pushing this wagon were Beaver and FD), so I don't find that kind of argument highly convincing. Or to put it another way:

Yos:"Pro-town people shouldn't have suspected Ether, she was obvtown all along".
You: "But some people did, so you're wrong!"
Me:"Yes, some people did. And they're probably scum."

You are either completely missing the entire point of my argument, or we're somehow just talking past each other here.

and then you bringing up that she had three people on her wagon at one point so you saying she was obv town wouldn't make a difference about the NK if other people didn't think she was town because she would still be scummy in their eyes and therefore NOT be the target for the NK...WIFOM.

At some point soon, probably after this game is over, I'm thinking about posting a thread in MD where I do a study on recently completed games and see what % of the people who were killed night 1 correctly suspected a scum during day 1. My predicition is that that % is going to be very, very high.

On mafiascum, my impression is that scum tend to just blatantly kill everyone who suspects them, and they usually get away with it; that's part of the reason scum win so many more mountanious games then they should, statistically speaking, but town does much better in games without night-kills.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

That being said, YossarianFlavouredCayke's idea that daSpot is scumbuddies with SVT is similarly silly.

Have you ever seen a scumbuddy blatantly lie to defend a buddy like that? You don't defend such a failure of a slot with such vehemence unless you're absolutely sure you'll be vindicated by a townflip - say, if you're scum and they're not on your team.

You're missing all the context here.

For a long time, DaSpot was trying to discourage a Beaver lynch in relitivly subtle ways, like attacking me for going after what he called an "easy wagon". I pointed out that he seemed to be trying to prevent a beaver lynch, and first he blew me off; I continued, and he attacked me in order to try to avoid answering my questions, and he only finally admitted that he was defending Beaver when I pinned him to the wall on the subject and didn't let up. That was when he had to invent a justification for his defense of Beaver, and, as you pointed out, it was quite bad. But I don't think DaSpot wanted to be seen to be defending Beaver; it looks like he was hoping to kill the Beaver wagon without anyone noticing he was doing it, and only tried to invent a pro-town justification for his defense of Beaver when he didn't have any other way out.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I can't believe we are seriously this close to lynching FES here. This is so obviously a mislynch, it hurts to watch.

Can we please lynch someone who at least has a chance of being scum?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

kay so why is FES town?

meta arguments won't here.

He's been doing more real scumhunting then 90% of this game. Every vote he's made all game has a pretty obvious pro-town motive. He's consistently been aggressive and logical in scumhunting. It's quite obvious that finding and lynching scum has been a higher priority for them then survival has been all game. His refusal to vote Beaver at the start of today, when he was at huge risk of being killed, for example, is very unlikely as a scum (unless he's scum with Beaver, which dosn't seem that likely here). Instead, he's kept voting for FD, the guy he gave logical reasons for suspecting as long ago as day 1, and refused to let the fact that he was clearly risking his life to do or the fact that other people didn't agree change his mind. And day 1, his behavior was quite obviously pro-town; there's no way a scum makes this post:

EBWOP:
We didn't notice that it was L-1 when we placed our vote, but we're aware of it now.

Also, day 1 stuff like the sparring with Ether about the Gummybear wagon was obviously pro-town. He also disagreed with the US wagon on day 1, in a situation where he was at a significant risk of being lynched himself

All of the actions FES have done basically all game are pretty consistently pro-town actions; none of it makes sense for FES scum, it all makes perfect sense for FES town. No one has made a case against him that makes a lick of sense at all to me, and yet he's at lynch -1. This is pretty clearly a bad bandwagon, and probably a scum driven one.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

This game sucks moose, and I want to die every time I read it.

Cayke was that defense designed to make me WANT to vote for FES? Every point in it was either bad or terribad.

That is probably the most worthless post you've made all game.

If you don't agree with one specific point in that, then explain what it is. I don't know what the hell you're doing today. I really thought you were town yesterday, but between your horrible attacks on FES, your stupid wall-of-text war with Balam that went nowhere and proved nothing, and your irrational defense of Spot, I don't know where your head is today at all.

I think every point I made in there is clearly true, and easily backed up by game evidence. If you don't, then you need to say what, and why. And you need to do it now, especially if you intend to survive tomorrow if you push through a mislynch on FES today.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Okay, then lets start.

- his case on FD was crap.
- he's made like... two votes all game. One for FD, one for a hydra I consider obvtown

FD made a really scummy looking response to being attacked, and FES voted for him because of it. No, he didn't make a huge case against FD when he voted for him, but I don't think he needed to there, and I don't think it's scummy of him not to.

"He's made two votes all game" is a terrible attack, when the reason for that is that he's been focusing on someone who he thought was scum for most of the game. It's bizzare the way some people are just like "Vote hopping is scummy" and other people are just like "keeping your vote in the same place is scummy" and no one actually seems to have a reason why or any thinking behind any of that.

- That post you quoted was just kinda null-flavored bland

Really?

If he was scum, and he wanted FD lynched, then wouldn't he hope that someone hammered without noticing that he was at lynch -1?

Also, wouldn't he have wanted to maintain deniability about knowing that he put him at lynch -1? For that matter, why would he be so calm about it?

No, that post reads very much like a pro-town person who's trying to be fair and doesn't want anyone to hammer by accident, but at the same time is calmly confident that the person he's voting for is scum.

- This is the gummybear post:

What do you think I was trying to say?

We were talking about the presented quotes in #120. We originally thought the contradiction was imaginary but after AIM-fueled reflection came to the conclusion that the point of view Gummybear puts forth does contain an inconsistency. We however feel the inconsistency is, if anything, genuine and not the result of intentionally taking an anti-town position. We dislike the amount of reasoning put forth in #120 since, as evidenced by our position, we don't feel the relevant conclusion follows as straightforwardly as the lack of reasoning suggests.

I dun see how that's very town.

I already explained why I think this series of posts is much more likely to come from town then from scum, weeks ago. Are you paying attention to the game here? Because this is the second time you've asked me about something I've already said.

He starts off calling out Ether on her position on Gummy's "contradiction", calling it semantics. He then thought and discussed it with his other head, and then came to the conclusion that it might not be just semantics. But he still thought that even if it was a contradiction, it probably wasn't an "intentionally anti-town" one, and still said he disliked Ether's post.

That's a very nuanced and thoughtful position; he realized he was partly wrong, but still didn't agree that Gummy's actions were actually scummy, so he said so, and expressed some concern about Ether's seeming to take for granted that it was without explaining. The whole thing looks like a pro-town person who's both honestly trying to figure out what is wrong, and honestly trying to point out what he sees as a logical flaw in a case being made; it's not the kind of post I expect scum to make. I expect scum to be much less likely to undermine their own point by admitting they were incorrect; I'd expect scum to either really go for the throat and just try to hammer the attack against Ether home, or else back off and try to disengage from the fight. He didn't do either, and I don't really see why scum would act that way.

It honestly reads like you flipped through his ISO and grabbed a few reasons he might be town.

Many of the things here are things I've already explained, greymarble. I'm just repeating them because someone asked why I thought FES was town, so I put many of my reasons into one post.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

@ YFC
Not to mention that your defense of FES is so lame, you have to resort to using the word "obvious" about 4 times. Your entire defense boils down to "he's obviously town". Just as I suspected, you have proven yourself a scumbuddy of FES. Now to find the 3rd scum.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHY IS THIS SCUM STILL ALIVE?

Anyone? I really want to know here how anyone could possibly have any doubt about Spot's alignment at this point. He asks for me to explain my read, and then he ignores the entire thing, except to claim that the word obvious is a scumtell, which is the most idiotic argument I've ever heard in a mafia game. There is zero chance that this guy is town who's trying to find out the truth here; he's apparently not even reading the answers to questions that he asks at this point.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Damnitall.

... I just checked...

yos: please point it out?

when did he NOT openly vote beaver? I'd expect some kind of defense of beaver if he didn't like instead of saying why beaver was town he called the wagon scum.

I defended beaver... where did he?

First, when he was being attacked for not voting Beaver, on the assumption that he should have been voting Beaver instead of FD because Beaver was the bigger wagon, he said this:

We're slightly baffled by the suggestion that we should be voting beaverweasel, considering we had a much stronger scum read on final destination yesterday.

Later, when asked about what he thought about the Beaver case, he called it "null".

All right, so we know now that you meant that BeaverWeasel's case was bad. What does that say about BeaverWeasel's alignment?

That depends to a great extent on what type of players it contains. They've struck us as Mastinesque so far, which would make it fairly null.

So, in a situation where he was at significant risk of being lynched, he did not join the large Beaver wagon, which could have saved his life at the time, he didn't even verbally support the Beaver wagon, and instead said that he thought the scumtells Beaver had done were actually null, and instead stuck to his guns and stuck to his scum read, even when no one else supported him.

THe only way FES could possibly be scum here is if he's scum with Beaver, and that seems unlikely.

Also, he did the same thing on day 1, refuisng to join the US mislynch wagon (what we now now was a mislynch) in order to stay on his main scum read.

Okay. Where is the scum bit? where?

You asked me why I thought about FES. I answered, giving a lot of reasons for my thoughts. You ignored everything I said, just called it "lame", and attacked me for using the word "obvious". The way you chose to respond was incredibly scummy; I don't think you actually are trying to figure out anyone's alignment, not FES's or mine, or else you would have responded in your inital post to some of the actual points I raised; I think you're just trying to force through a mislynch through sheer volume at this point.

I'm THIS close from flaming THE FUCK out of you.

heh. You're now *threatening* to flame me for calling you scum? That's classic.

Go for it. I dare you. It'll just make your bullshit that much more obvious and get you lynched that much faster, and you know it.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Damn this hydra stuff.

YosFlavouredCayke

: Who's town?

FES is by far the most clearly pro-town person in this game. I can't believe you just ignored everything I said and voted for him anyway.

Lord Fonzi is probably town.

Unicorn Brethren is stlll probably town, although frustrating. Fritzler trying to hammer whenever given the chance (if that was him) is null for him.

I guess I'm going to have to say greymarble is likely town, although I hate his play today.

Copper is null-ish. Much of his posting is good, but I dislike the way he tried to force FES off of his FD vote on the grounds that "FD won't be lynched today". Not because Copper thought FD was scum, not because it wasn't a logical vote; just because Copper didn;t think FD was going to be lynched. Considering how early in the day this way, and how much stuff can happen, I dislike this justification; there's nothing wrong with sticking with your #1 suspect for a while early in the day, and there's really no way of predicting that early in the day that someone absolutly won't be lynched. The way FES stood up to this pressure, kept his vote where he thought it was best, and let Copper put him at lynch -2 rather then give into the pressure and join the Beaver wagon, join the votes on me, or join some other wagon, is behavior that I basically consider 100% proof of pro-town motive on the part of FES.

I'm going to have to say I'm null on you right now. The biggest thing in your favor right now is that I don't think you're likely to be scum with Beaver, i don't think you're likely to be scum with Spot, and I don't think you're likely to be scum with Gummy; as it is, while I'm not a fan of a lot of your posts, I have trouble coming up with a plasuable scumgroup that could include you in it.

I'm going to be generous and call FD null for now. He was incredibly scummy, then he briefly made some posts that seemed kind of town-ish, now he's at best a quasi-lurker. (not actually a lurker, but when he posts, it has next to no content).

Like i said, currently leaning scum on gummybear. they seemed kind of null-townish day 1, but their posting today has been aweful.

Spot and Beaver are still my two top lynch choices.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

This may be a purely political disagreement, but forcing players to give meaningful votes and positions may be the crux of any good townie's strategy. The FD vote was as predictable as it was useless.

That dosn't make any sense to me. FD got a lot of votes on day 1; the idea that you can just declare a vote on FD "useless" seems bizzare to me. In any case, a vote on someone you think is scum is never "useless".

If you're convinced person X is scum, and no one else agrees, just giving up and ignoring person X is a pretty bad idea, IMHO. It might be necessary to eventually compromise to get a more likely wagon, but even if you're all by yourself, if you're convinced person X is scum, you should make that absolutely clear, and keep pressure on them whatever way you can; even if it seems unlikely not going to get a lynch on that person today, you should keep making the case and attacking them, and try to build towards a future consensus on them.

There are times it's good to vote on a compromise wagon, or vote for pressure, or vote to make a point, or for other reasons; but most of the time, your vote should be on the person who's your number #1 suspect. I wouldn't have minded if you attacked FES because you thought FD was town, or because his case was bad, or whatever, but you never said that, and the "None of the rest of the town agrees with you so you should just shut up and sheep on the rest of us or I'm going to put you at lynch -2" thing just seemed bizarre.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

daSpot: A hypothetical. Suppose FES flips town. How does that affect your read of YFC?

Don't know about my other head, but as far as I'm concerned, he's still scum. I don't see Yos-town trying to throw such BS at us and hope it sticks while simultaneously making blind, crappy defenses of FES.

There's nothing BS about my case against you. And I'm sure you know that, since you generally haven't even bothered to respond to any of the points I've made against you other then with shitty OMGUS attacks. If you actually thought the case against you was flawed, you've have at least tried to refute it; but you know that I'm right and that you're scum, so instead you consistently try to shift attention and change the subject.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

.
YOSCAYKES LATEST HARDCORE DEFENSE OF FES GIVES US SECOND THOUGHTS AS WELL, AS IF HE KNOWS FES' TOWNFLIP WILL CONDEMN HIM VIA POE (BECAUSE YOS IS DEFSCUM IF FES IS SOMEHOW SPACETOWN)

This is just terrible. If I'm right about FES, that makes me scum for defending him so hard? From some people, I'd expect that kind of logic, but I know for a fact that you, Fate, will go to unbelievable lengths to prevent a lynch on someone you have a town read on, up to and including fakeclaims. So the fact that you're calling me scummy for trying to prevent a mislynch on someone I'm strongly confident is town just seems bizarre to me.

Anyway:

(Equinox)

Guess what, guys? I'm going to hop off. It's too complacent of a wagon for me. Instead, let's get a flash wagon going.

Unvote, Vote: GummyBear

Even my fellow head AGar was confused by my GummyBear vote, so I'll explain. There have been numerous complaints about the game state in this thread, starting with Super Vanilla Townie, and then GummyBear busts in here and goes, "This game sucks!" Way to dampen the town's morale. Bringing town down in this manner is a scum tactic that I have seen work. I'd expect, after 4 people have complained, that the next person to feel that way would know to shut up and do something about it. Slapping a vote on the big wagon and then going, "Game sucks, can we move on now?" isn't productive. Heck, even deadline lynching is more productive than post 752.

This is definite *goodposting*. Gummy looks pretty bad here. I'm still hoping we can get some movement on the Spot wagon here, but if not, the Gummy wagon would be a reasonable compromise wagon, and I'll most likely join it before deadline if nothing changes. (Also, Spot's recent posting has really increased the odds that Spot and Gummy are scum together, so it's kind of a win/win here.)

[YosFlavouredCayke]

cooltunnelbro

Hey, I caught scum here. You blatantly refused to even respond to my case against you, and I pretty much just consider that a confession. You are going to hang sooner or later; even if you kill me tonight, I'm sure your scummy behavior is just going to keep becoming more obvious to the rest of the town.

That being said, there's more then one scum, and if I can't get you today, I'll have to settle for one of your buddies.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

That was Grey saying 794 & 796 were scumclaims, but I think I agree. They smell a lot like "okay I'll lynch my buddy now and then let's make this mislynch tomorrow. Easiest excuse is to say my scumpal looks like a buddy of the mislynch I've been pushing."

What are you talking about?

DaSpot is scummy as hell. Gummybear is also scummy, and now DaSpot is defending Gummybear with terrible logic. Therefore, it's fairly likely that they're scum together.

Dilemma mafia Yosscummeta shows him saying "I like where you're going with that" when Bub & others attacked his scumbuddy.

...are you seriously trying to use meta now, after denying that meta works all game?

In any case, this is a pretty bad meta argument. "Yos once said he liked a vote in a game when he was scum, and he's saying he likes a vote this game, so he must be scum this game!"

In any case, your entire crappy argument is obviously going to fall apart once Spot is lynched and flips scum, so I'm not especially worried about it.

By the way:

Yos' stuff on Gummy all sounds like "I'll vote my buddy if his wagon really takes off and in the mean time I'll say I like peoples' thinking when they vote them. I won't superpress their lynch myself though."

You do realize I've been saying Gummy is scummy for quite a while now, since significantly before the current wagon, right?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

WHO'S OUR PARTNER AGAIN? WHO?

If you can't remember, you should check your role PM.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Seriously, there is right now about a 0% chance that you, gummy, and SVT are all town. There's just no plasuable scum group I can come up with that dosn't include at least one of you, and two of you is more likely.

Which means that either you're scum, probably scum who's been defending your buddy, or else you are a complete idiot townie who's spent all day defending scum. You being scum the more likely scenerio here.

It's also worth mentioning that Gummy was voting for SVT for a while today. They could be scum together, but it doesn't seem all that likely.

If I had 3 lynches today, I'd gladly lynch all 3 of you. Since I don't, my first choice is you, my second choice would be gummy.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

lol you guise...

yos just scum slipped...

lynch pl0x

Do you really think you can just keep repeating "Yos is scum" like a bloody parrot and the town will listen to you? The people in this game are not that stupid.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I still would like one person, anyone, to explain to me why we're not lynching Spot today before i switch my vote off of him. Explain to me how the hell anyone could think Spot could possibly be town at this point.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Ok, so Spot is apparently a member of the "when you're caught scum, spam the fuck out of the thread in all caps" school of thought. Good to know.

I mean, the conversation went like this:

Yos: "gummy is suspicious, and there's a possible link between him and another suspect of mine, Spot, so I wouldn't mind lynching him today"

Spot: "OMG SCUM SLIP AHAHAHAH BLARG LA LA LA I AM SHOOTING COCAINE INTO MY EYEBALLS RIGHT NOW"

You haven't actually explained how me pointing out that your defense of Gummy makes you a likely buddy of Gummy is a "scum slip". That's probably the dumbest thing you've said all game, and it's got a lot of competition.

Of course, you're not going to explain yourself, either. At this point, you're just going to try to spam and clog up the thread with garbage until deadline to try to get the town to no-lynch. Well, it's not going to work.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Spot: On that note, I want you to give a full case on YFC.

YFC: I'd like you to do the same for Daspot.

I've been pointing out scummy behavior on the part of DaSpot since literally my second post, back in February.

I'm going to bed now, but I'll be glad to put it all into one massive post tomorrow if you want. Until then, I'd recommend you just read my posts in ISO. or just read his posts in ISO, try to find any that make sense from a pro-town point of view.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

SKIMMING SCUM!!!

MY CASE WRITES IT SELF!

I'M NOT VOTING YOU FOR YOUR FOS ON GUMMY.

HELL NO.

YOUR TUNNEL ON MR IS WHERE MY SCRUTINY LIES.

So, you're voting me because I'm "tunneling on you"?

Nice.

Care to explain how me voting for you is a scumtell?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

ME*

YOUR TUNNEL ON ME

THIS IS SCUMMY.

YOU HAVE NOT BACKED UP YOU TUNNEL

NOT ONE BIT

Even the claim that I've been "tunneling" on you is just horrible. I was actually pushing the Beaver wagon for much of the day, until you acted so utterly scummy that I just had to vote for you. You've been acting in a scummy way all game, of course, but for most of the game you were #2 on my suspect list. That's not what "tunnel" means. Also, "tunneling" isn't scummy anyway; 'OMG Yos has been attacking the same person for a while" isn't a case.

It's especally bad since earlier this game you were attacking US for moving his vote, and now you're attacking me for keeping my vote in the same place for a while.

Anyway; are you really going to try to claim I haven't explained the reasons that you're suspicious this game?

THERE IS NO ONE.

NO ONE

THAT SEES ME AS SCUM LIKE YOU. APPARENTLY IT'S OBVIOUS. WELP CLASS?

Do I have to go through and make a list of everyone who's found you scummy during the course of this game?

And, hey, even if I was the only one who thought you are scummy, that would also not be a case against me. It's not unusual for me to be way out in front of the rest of the town. It feels like your whole case is "YOS IS VOTING FOR ME AND I DON'T LIKE IT SO I'M GOING TO SPEND THE REST OF ETERNITY SPAMMING IN ALL CAPS THAT HE IS SCUM AND HOPE SOMEONE LISTENS TO ME."

THEY SEE ME AS OBVIOUS SCUM... DO YOU ALL KNOW WHY?

IF NOT.. MAYBE IT'S NOT OBVIOUS THEN...

So, your defense is that you don't think it's obvious that you're scum?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Also this is comically reminiscent of how you tried to get me mislynched in Dilemma mafia.

You do realize that when I'm scum, i do my best to play exactally as I do when I'm town, including using the same type of arguments, right? That's an especially bad example, since in Dilemma mafia, my only goal for most of the game was to find and lynch the other scum group; I knew they were the only real threat to me. So that was all real scumhunting done by me in that game.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Anyway, since I promised to make a full case against DaSpot today, here it is. This is going to be a LONG post, because of the sheer volume and bredth of the scum tells DaSpot has committed so far this game is incredible, and the amount of evidence against him is overwhelming. Even with the length of this post, I'm still summerising some points of it, and I'm also going to skip some arguments that I find convincing but that aren't worth the effor of trying to convey. (Primarily, the process of elimination/ limited number of plausible scumtems argument, and the links to other scummy players argument.) I could talk about that stuff, but frankly I don't think I need to, the direct evidence is so large.

The fundumental thing about DaSpot is this.

He's not looking for scum

. Not at all. He pushes wagons, in what looks like various attempts to push through mislynches, but he's not consistant in his logic, he constantly misrepresents or lies about facts and the game state, he is completly lacking in townie curiosity. He combines this with massive posting, attempts to use emotion, volume, ALL CAPS, and whatever else he can to push various wagons, but he dons't ask questions, or if he does he dosn't care about the answers. At no point does he actually seem to be honestly thinking in order to try to figure out who the scum is. All this adds up to someone who is scum, who is trying to attack and mislynch various pro-town people, but who has absolutly zero interest in trying to find the scum, because he already knows.

Some specifics:

He is entirely careless about the facts. He consistently lies and misrepresents fairly obvious facts to push whatever argument he is currently on. This has been a running trend throughout the game; he tries to push wagons, generally on pro-town people, using false or badly misrepresented facts.

SOme examples:

His early case on Unicorn for "contradicting himself" was obviously very deeply logically flawed. I normally wouldn't make a big deal about an early-game case, but it's part of a pattern here.

His early case on Ether was entirely based on misrepresentations or logical errors:

Here are our scum reads. Kc and dana approved.

Pathetric

Posts 0-14
Says little of importance, posts a lot of fluff, and says that meta has value.
Post 15
Hypocritically tells someone else to post who the scum are.
Post 16
Puts some quotes together and votes without reasoning. It would help to know what the quoted posts do.
Post 25
Brushes off what Fate says and tells him to elaborate, something that they haven't done themselves. Yet another hypocritical command.
Post 29
Is wary of putting vote on their own scum read. "Feeling weird focusing on one person" has never happened to me as town.
Post 30
Takes pains to make sure everyone knows they are "obvtown", which obvtown wouldn't need to do.

Most of those points are either just factually incorect, or, at best, based on highly flawed logic. The claim that Ether "was wary of putting vote on her own scum read" is quite bizzare, considering she was voting for FD her own scum read at this point. Also, note that in this case through, he attacks Ether for not wanting to tunnel (""Feeling weird focuing on one person" has never happened to me as town") even though he's now claiming that tunneling is a scum tell. These kinds of logical consistancy errors are what I expect to see when a scum is just trying to ram bad cases through.

His case on FES here wasn't much better, with gems like this:

Post 18
Tries to explain why meta works here, and doesn't succeed, since Fate would normally be going crazy as scum, too.

All you have to do is look at FES' post that Spot links to here, and you'll see that this is a pretty horrible misrepresentation. FES's point was't that "fate is going crazy"; just the opposite. The point was that Fate is usually active and aggressive as town, and that he was not being active and aggressive this game. That seems like a valid and logical point to me, but what's relevent here isn't if you agree or disagree with it, it's that DaSpot misrepresents it (probably delibratly so) in order to make an attack against someone. Again, this is entierly consistant with "DaSpot is scum who is trying to fake scumhunting", but not at all consistant with "DaSpot is town who's honestly trying to figure out who the town is".


quote="DaSpotthatkillsu"]...Yos where the fuck are your scum reads???

...forget FES, the only person you found scummy thus far was a mislynch[/quote]

Another obviously untrue statment, where he claims that the only person I found scummy all game was US. Not only is this untrue, there's no chance that this could possibly be an honest mistake, considering how he was arguing with me about my suspicion of FD on day 1.

ISO 14
Says suspicion on us is reasonable because he disagrees with us, after just telling us that we were wrong to call UB scummy for disagreeing with them.

Partial misrepresentation. What I actually said was "I disgree with basically everything DaSpot's said and done all game".

ISO 36
Tries to place the blame on us for US being lynched because we "never really tried to defend him or argue against the wagon", as if arguing FOR another wagon does not accomplish the same thing in a better way.

Complete misrepresentation. I never "tried to blame him for US being lynched". I did make a case against DaSpot based on the discrepency between his comments after US's lynch and the comments before, but I never "blamed him for the lynch" or anything like that. I'll explain the US scumtell of DaSpot's again a little later in this post, but sufice to say this is another example of DaSpot not being especally interested in the truth, and only interested in what he can pretend the truth is in order to win an argument.

Also, in a bunch of recent posts, he keeps saying I "committed a scum slip" but seem completly incapable of explaining what it is (and if you think "tunneling on Spot" is "a scum slip", then you don't know what words mean.)

-Along with the lies and misrepresentations, there is a distinct lack of townie curiosity in the thread. For example, he asks me what I think about FES, and yet clearly doesn't care about the answer (dismissing it as "lame" and attacking me for using the word "obvious".) When I call him on that, he goes back and pretends to care, and he actually asks a decent question about my defense of FES:

... I just checked...

yos: please point it out?

when did he NOT openly vote beaver? I'd expect some kind of defense of beaver if he didn't like instead of saying why beaver was town he called the wagon scum.

But then, when I answered that, he dosn't seem to care about that answer either. He never responds to it, never comments on it, I don't even know if he read the answer to his own question. Again, if he was town, I'd expect him to be trying to get a stronger read on FES at this point; or, if he was town who was totally tunnelng on FES and convinced he was scum, I'd have expected him to question me to try to get a read on me and to figure out why I was defending him. He did neither. Again, all sings here point to "dosn't need to figure out who the scum are, dosn't care, because he already knows."

Speaking of already knowing who the scum are, let me get back to this point. I've talked about this before, but it bears repeating.

When US was slowly being wagoned towards a lynch, DaSpot never bothered to argue against it, even though he was around at the time. And yet, after he was lynched, but before the flip, he said:

.... you all are idiots.

Implying that he already knew US was going to flip town. Now, he had included US in a list of people he thought was pro-town earlier, but if he was town who was that confident of it, I'd have expected him to actually try to argue against the wagon. He didn't seem at all interested in stopping the wagon, but once it was done, he seemed to already know that US was going to flip town.

There is a wide variety of other scummy behavior from US; he self-contradictory defensive statements about Beaver, for example ("He wasn't lurking!") just seems like more blatent lying for tactical reasons. His whole illogical defense of Beaver, followed by his OMGUS attack on me to try to avoid admitting that he had been defending Beaver, just smacks of bad scum play.

All in all, DaSpot's play is a mess. Nothing he's done really makes sense from a pro-town standpoint. Beyond that, despite his high level of activity, he seems to have absolutly no interest in actually finding scum with facts, with logic, with reasoning, or with gut, or even with basic stuff like "reading the answers to questions you ask". All he seems to be interested in, all game, is a consistent desire to secure mislynches, with a few odd and illogical defenses of really scummy looking people mixed in.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Wait...

You REALLY thought Marble was on the Blue scumteam? And that I was his buddy?

Oh, I knew you were town, obviously. You came out of nowhere and called me and Darla as scum, lol. If it hadn't been for the way that your gambit was trumped by my better gambit, you probably would have been a real threat.

By the way, the contrast between your play there and your play here was part of the reason i suspected you in this game on day 1, although I obviously couldn't mention it at the time. Your reads in that game were really good, and you were quite aggressive and scumhunting; your reads in day 1 of this game just seemed horrible, your play was overall passive, and the combination of those two things really made me doubt your alignment here.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I really suck at hydra posting. I blame the fact that I can't look at forum 62 with this account. Anyway:

OOOOOH missed the chance to vote GummyVT and salvage your scumminess, SPECIALLY since we got a day to deadline.

O WELL.

I've already made clear that if I can't get DaSpot lynched today, I'm going to vote gummy. We've got time left, though, and the DaSpot wagon is still the second biggest one; I'm not willing to give up on it just yet.

And you're calling me scum because my reads are BAD? How the FUCK can you compare D1 of a hydra game to D2 of a game I replaced in as?

Replacements by default have 10000% (real statistic) better reads then people stuck in the psyche of a game.

*shrug* That's reasonable; I would expect you to do somewhat better in that situation. Still, in that game, you replaced in and instantly nailed an entire scum game. On day 1 of this game...you voted for Ether. *Ether*. Who by this point already looked so obviously pro-town to me I wouldn't have believed someone who claimed cop and who claimed to have a guilty on her. That's a pretty big difference.

Now, being wrong on day 1 isn't a very strong scumtell, but in this case, it was so glaring I pretty much had to take notice. It was frustrating, though, not being able to talk about some of my reasons for suspecting you without risking ruining the Dilemma mafia game.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Hey, awesome! Welcome to the game, incog. Been ages since I've played a game with you.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Okay lets play meta games then Yosarian. Since it's so convincing. I agree meta can be useful sometimes, a meta argument basically won this game for me.

Here's Kcdaspot as scum:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16523

Completed game that started a good bit after this one did. Also one RayFrost has memories of.

Spotty makes some cases on some people:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2819722

So, your theory is that if Spotty posts, he's town? You don't think that other factors, like the hydra, could also have an effect on that?

Your entire case on him boils down to 'he doesn't make good cases.'

No, that's not it. It's not that he dosn't make good cases. It's that he dosn't make HONEST cases. He dosn't make the kind of cases you see from a town person who's trying to figure out who the scum are. He lies, misrepresents, misdirects, and dosn't bother to try to figure out who the scum are; he just wants to lynch the people he wants to lynch.

It's not about if a case is good or bad. The real question is, is the case town-motivated or scum-motivated.

Gummybear posts pre-wagon:

33 (counting VLAs and /confirms)
Duration: Feb 25th - April 6th

Gummybear posts post Balam vote:

10
Dates: April 6th to April 8th

Glad to see you 'suddenly' have time for the game.

Yeah, that's a good point. Gummy has had a habit this game of lurking when not under pressure, then posting under pressure. Like I said, Gummy's a reasonably good lynch today, and one I'm likely to support, although I'm not as confident as I am about the Spot wagon.

By the way, what do you think of the way Spot reacted to people saying he might was linked to Gummy after his Gummy defense? He basically went nuclear and spastic, even more so then he had been previously. Which is kind of odd, and off, if Spot actually thinks Gummy is town.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

@Yos:

I've got a bit of a conflicting read with FES. Can you tell me why you think they're obvtown?

I've made a bunch of posts on the subject.

Assuming you don't want to read all that right now, let me just say one big thing that sticks out at me: I think FES is more worried about finding scum and about "doing the right thing" then he is about self preservation. Biggest example of that is earlier in the day today; he was already at risk of lynch, and he could easily have molified Copper by taking his vote off FD and putting it somewhere else. It's not like the lone vote on FD was going to help his odds of survival. But he calmly kept his vote where he wanted it, and basically shrugged off the fact that that meant Copper was going to put them at lynch -2 because of it. Whole thing looks more like stubborn townie then like scum to me.

That "stubborn townie" thing is a vibe I get from a lot of his behavior.

Can you explain why you think DaSpot is town, Incog?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

YFC's interactions with Fonzi even call out Fonzi for ignoring them.

Oh YFC... what do you think of ol' Fonz Fonz ignoring you right now? You seemed to drop it, despite keeping a record of every little thing DaSpot has done.

I was unhappy with Fonz, and starting to wonder about his alignment, when he was seemingly ignoring everything I said, even posts specifically directed to him about Froggy, while his vote on Froggy.

His posts since then, though, have struck me as pretty pro-town.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I agree that Yosarrian's actions do seem oddly like trying to establish connections before a flip. His connection between daSpot and Gummybear ("daSpot's defense of Gummybear is bad...so they're both scum") seems rushed and ill-thought out. I think that trying to apply the same calculus to UB's "NEIGH THEY ARE SCUMBUDDIES" is reaching.

Not really a matter of trying to establish connections. But I do try and figure out if someone could possibly be part of any plasuable scumgroup before I vote them, especally when I have a number of people I have strong pro-town feelings on line I do this game. Like how in my most recent analysis of everyone in the game, I mentioned Balam was not likely to be scum because I couldn't see him as partners with any of my main suspects.

I mean, there is always the possibility I'm just wrong about everything and everyone, but I don't think so.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Anyway, jftr, I'm not going to let this day end in a no-lynch (the LAST thing we need is to go into tommorow having no more information then we have now, ugh.) So if there's any reason why I shouldn't hammer Gummy, someone needs to say so. And soon; I can't promise I'll be around right up until deadline, so I may have to hammer earlier.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

5) Can people stop calling this hydra 'Fonz' especially when it is obviously Gurgi posting, ie the end of yesterday?

Well, I'm not going to call you guys "Lord".

vote: Frogito Ergo Sum

I'd like to see a claim. Not really sure how FES escaped without providing one Yesterday. I'd also like to use this Day to get better reads on my jumbled up peeps.

Lord Fonzi, you used 3 twice. Also could you elaborate more on why FD looks worse after Yesterday? I'm not really seeing that right now. Finally, 6 seems fairly obvious, but I guess we can wait for the fairly mute Unicorn to answer on their own behalf.

Incog, do you think that FES refusing to claim at lynch -1 was a scumtell?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Hmm. If he's scum, though, then wouldn't doing nothing and allowing a no-lynch, and letting Gummy be lynched the next day instead, have been more in his best interest?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

In other news, we should all be voting who Greymarble suspected. He was dangerously close to being the towniest townie that ever towned. He was also last nights kill. Therefore, we should be following his lead. And who wins the prize?

YosFlavouredCayke,

GummyBear

, and Lord Fonzi.

One down, two to go. NK's are not nearly as much of WIFOM in a game like this. They would be relatively straightforward in choosing their kill targets. They'd kill who suspected them. So let's go with what Greymarble was saying.

So, why is this valid, but when I pointed out that the nightkill of Ether made Beaver look bad, you completely ignored it?

This is especially bad since the reason GreyMarble suspected me was that he thought I was scum with Gummybear since I was slow in voting them.

Now, the kill of Grey was bizarre. I mean, almost everyone said he was town, but still, I don't get it. I will say that the death of grey is one reason I didn't start off the day voting for Spot, like I'd intended to; Grey was a huge defender of Spot, and it'd be strange for Spot to kill Grey.

If Spot isn't scum, though, then I'm having a hell of a hard time figuring out who is. This whole game is so frustrating.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I would not be willing to lynch UB today, at least not without a much better case for his scumminess.

I'm deeply frustrated here, and I feel like I'm spinning my wheels. At this point, out of the 3 wagons I've really pushed for this game, I still don't know the alignment of any of the people I attacked, I don't know if I was right or wrong about any of them. I could be wrong about everything this game, and never know it. What we need to do is find and lynch a scum here, today, so we can start to put some pieces togehter. The town has been so divided, in so many emotional fights, and if I just knew the identity of one scum for sure, I really suspect that the identity of the others will become obvious. So, no, I'm not willing to accept a policy lynch on UB, just because he might be unpredictable in endgame, Balam; unless we catch a scum now, I'm not that optimistic about the town's odds of lasting until endgame.

On the other hand, the case you make on Fate is significantly more convincing. I'm curious, Balam; it seems a little odd. Can you explain why you would make what looks like a really strong case against Fate being scum, and FOS him, while voting for UB primarily for erratic behavior?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Well, the biggest thing that's confusing me is, again, why marble was killed.

Also, it's kind of bizzare, but it feels like there has to be at least one scum who has been seriously defended by at least one townie at this point, which is something you rarely see. There whole town has argued inconclusivly about too many people, and it's hard to triangulate without at least one solid fact.

I still think FES is town, yes. I don't have a problem with his scum list; after all, Beaver (your slot), FD, and Spot have been the 3 people I've suspected the most this game.

I could join a FD wagon.

vote:Final Destination

He does seem fairly likely scum here.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

GEE WIZZ IS THIS SOME NEW WAY TO PLAY MAFIA? LOSE LIKE IDIOTS?

...

The irony is painful.

Anyway, despite the fact that every time Spot posts it makes me want to him to die, I'm less confident about him at this point. I really want to lynch FD today, and I've got some suspicions about Profane Confusion as well.

I'm tired of crappy compromise lynches, and I'm tired of nobody listening to me. Today we're lynching scum. I don't intend to leave the FD wagon today.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yeah, I think we're just going to ignore Spot until he stops spamming random garbage and starts actually playing mafia.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Anyway, despite the fact that every time Spot posts it makes me want to him to die, I'm less confident about him at this point. I really want to lynch FD today, and I've got some suspicions about Profane Confusion as well.

We've played in at least 5 forum games together on opposite sides and same sides, numerous face-to-face games together, and you really can't see I'm town here? Yos, are you scum?

- Incog

I've played enough forum games with you to know that I really can't read you. You're good as scum, especially online, and the forum games I played with you when you were scum, you pretty consistently had me fooled.

I wouldn't say I have a strong read on you right now, either way. I would say that I was very suspicious of the slot you replaced into. Also, I was suspicious of Beaver being scum with either FD or with Spot, and that your behavior so far has been fairly consistent with either one of those possibilities.

That being said, there aren't any of your posts I could point to and say "that looks scummy". You could easily have been playing like this as town, although I'm not really sure if town Incog would be voting for FES here. I'm just...I donno. I don't know what your alignment is, and it's nagging at me.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

This is pretty much all you need to re-read to see YFC/Fonzi on Day 1:

(Untrod Stranger is a

KNOWN, FLIPPED TOWNIE

, for the record)

He was also playing like an idiot, which is why he was lynched day 1.

Also, you seem to have missed the fact that, before he died, US came to the conclusion that I was probably town.

Yos defended Froggy, yes. But Yos is playing the white knight game. And despite us being really good at this, its extremely unlikely that our mere presence has already singled out all the scum. Especially with all the lurking thats going on right now.

I don't at all see how that's supposed to make me scum.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Surge?

You have played with me before right?

With AGM Mia, I could either LURKFEST it up, or catch fuckin scum like I do best.

In this game, you lurk like hell, except when people vote for you, and then suddenly you care about the game. That's been your pattern all game.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

LOL

"FD posts wall of stuff"

YosResponse:
"You lurk like hell then post when people vote you"


L
O
L

Did you expect me to believe a wild, rambling theory that is entirely dependent upon me being scum?

Or, let me put it another way:

Assuming that I'm town, is there any POSSIBLE way for you to be town this game? If so, what it is?

I don't see it at this point.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I would say that I was very suspicious of the slot you replaced into. Also, I was suspicious of Beaver being scum with either FD or with Spot, and that your behavior so far has been fairly consistent with either one of those possibilities.

I might have missed this but can you point out the posts where you mention that you were suspicious of Beaver being scum with FD or Spot?

I'm not sure if I mentioned the possible Beaver/FD link specifically, but I did point out how bad Beaver's defense of FD on day 1 was (he defended fate by calling my vote for him a "chainsaw" defense of Ether). At the time, I was thinking about them as possible partners.

I did spend quite a bit of time talking about a possible Spot/Beaver link during day 2, based primarally on Spot's defense of Beaver. For example:

That being said, YossarianFlavouredCayke's idea that daSpot is scumbuddies with SVT is similarly silly.

Have you ever seen a scumbuddy blatantly lie to defend a buddy like that? You don't defend such a failure of a slot with such vehemence unless you're absolutely sure you'll be vindicated by a townflip - say, if you're scum and they're not on your team.

You're missing all the context here.

For a long time, DaSpot was trying to discourage a Beaver lynch in relitivly subtle ways, like attacking me for going after what he called an "easy wagon". I pointed out that he seemed to be trying to prevent a beaver lynch, and first he blew me off; I continued, and he attacked me in order to try to avoid answering my questions, and he only finally admitted that he was defending Beaver when I pinned him to the wall on the subject and didn't let up. That was when he had to invent a justification for his defense of Beaver, and, as you pointed out, it was quite bad. But I don't think DaSpot wanted to be seen to be defending Beaver; it looks like he was hoping to kill the Beaver wagon without anyone noticing he was doing it, and only tried to invent a pro-town justification for his defense of Beaver when he didn't have any other way out.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

V/La. Lost power in the storm on Saturday. Finally got power back, but cable and phone lines are still down, so still no internet at home, until someone comes out and fixes it.

-Yos

[YosFlavouredCayke]

V/La. Lost power in the storm on Saturday. Finally got power back, but cable and phone lines are still down, so still no internet at home, until someone comes out and fixes it.

-Yos

Well, that's convenient as hell. Why don't you just have Cayke post then, in your absence? No reason to call V/LA. Sucks about the tornadoes though.

tl;dr: I call bullshit on your bullshit.

No, losing power for 3 days was not especially convenient. Tell you what, you want to mail me a check for the $150 worth of groceries that we now have to throw away, then you can tell me how "convenient" it was.

We actually didn't get any tornadoes here. Just a big thunderstorm and a lot of wind. That was enough to take down a tree down the block from us and to bring down the power lines, though.

Seriously; considering how active I've been all game, and how worthless your hydra has been for most of it, are you actually attacking me for not being able to post for 4 days because of a power outage?

I'll try to go back and figure out what is going on in this game now, but seriously, wtf?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I see, Yos. You know, I decided to look into these lurker accusations that you've made towards FD since I haven't been here from the start to be able to see any kind of lurking pattern from them. After looking into it, I don't really see what it is you're talking about there. Final Destination has been posting at a rate of at least 1 ppd with maybe 2 or 3 breaks from that due to apparent V/LAs.

Would you agree or disagree that FES has probably been a worse offender of what you're accusing FD of (but yet you have them down as town)? Further, why is FD a lurker but people like Copper and Unicorn Brethren are not?

- Incog[/quote]

When I say lurker, I'm talking about content, not number of posts. And he has had bursts where he's produced a lot of content, but only in response to pressure.

Day 1, he started out producing very little content. He made a few posts, but basically for the first 5 days of the game, he said nothing relevent. Then a wagon starts up on him on March 1st, and within 3 hours, he's posting up a storm. He then posts extensivly through the rest of day 1, while there is a significant bandwagon on him the whole time.

Day 2, he starts out putting a bad vote on FES for bad reasons. He has a few big posts where he responds to attacks made on him by FES. After that, he does some chearleading on the FES wagon, but says nothing new, and basically says very little for the rest of the day. During this whole period (Say, march 16th-April 4th) he does post about 10 times, but there's basically zero content there, other then "derp derp let's lynch fes". He wasn't under suspicion, so he was perfectly happy just riding a bad wagon and going under the radar. Then he switched to the Gummy wagon and went back to saying basically nothing useful the rest of the day.

Day 3, he's been under attack, and so he's actually been posting up a storm again. Mostly trying to get me lynched. He was perfectly happy ignoring me for as long as I wasn't voting for him, but now that I am voting hfor him again, he wants me dead.

His behavior this game, the pattern of his activity, generally seems to be designed with self preservation in mind.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

As for YosFlavouredCayke, I'm torn because the stuff they've done make little sense to me as scum (i.e., NKs). AGar and RayFrost disagree (for the same reason, oddly enough). AGar has been V/LA, so we haven't had the chance to discuss this as a group. What I will say, though, is that RayFrost had made a post specifically for YosFlavouredCayke to respond to, and their lack of acknowledgment (as far as I'm aware)... guh, not sure how to take that, really, but it annoys me because we need that response.

Consider that a call-out.

I'm not sure what you mean; what do you want a response to?

Unvote Yos, I don't want to put you at L-1 yet because of the moderate possibility of a :quickhammer: by some derp, but consider yourself at pseudo-L-1.

Scum: UB, YFC

:eyebrow: Weren't you just calling me town a few posts ago?

Whatever. I'm not taking this wagon against me seriously right now because it's so clearly scum driven, and it's so completely lacking in plausible arguments, I can't imagine town being dumb enough to push it over the edge. Out of the 3 people voting for me right now (FD, Spot, Unicorn), I'd be surprised if more then one of them is town.

If your goal here is to try to force a claim out of me, go ahead and say so. Otherwise, I have no idea what you're thinking here.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

This is AGM. Sorry for slacking - I was really busy this weekend.

What I'm even more sorry about, though, is all these DUMB FUCK ARGUMENTS ABOUT POSTING STYLE. Fate was picking up on my slack and posted as Fate usually does.

The next person to call that scummy is getting nommed for "CooLDoG 2.0" in the title thread.

[NOT STUPIDITY APPROVED]

Your hydra consistently posts tons when you're under attack, and says very little when you're not.

Your hydra consistently invents bullshit reasons to attack everyone who attacks you, no matter if it's me, FES, or Ether. Day 2, when FES was attacking you and I wasn't, all you wanted to do was attack FES. Today, when I'm the bigger threat to you, all you want to do is lynch me. This is not likely to be a coincidence.

And don't expect us to believe that you actually believe that that "Ether said Yos is probably town so he's scum" bullshit. If you actually cared about what Ether thought, you would have noticed that Pathetic also called me town multiple other times later in that day.

You are scum who just wants to survive. Don't get me wrong, you're good at it. But your motivation this game does not seem to be town.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Equinox was independently, as RF and I feel differently.

1) I personally want a claim.

Why?

Can you explain why you suspect me here? The case against me has consistently seemed completely irrational, especially coming from Spot and Fate. (Which mostly boils down to "HOW DARE YOU ATTACK US YOU MUST BE SCUM" repeated a billion times in a thousand different ways.) No one's actually explained how anything I've done would make sense as scum, or how any of it is anti-town; all game I've been defending people who are either confirmed town or probable town (Ether and FES) and attacking people who are likely scum (spot, FD, Beaver/PC).

2) Entertain me here - how much value would you put in Ether/Patrick's ability to read you?

I have a ton of experence with them; they're both really strong players, and I'd say that either one of them has a much better chance of getting a good read on me then most people.

I'd also say the same about Incognito, so his suspicion on me feels wrong. I'm not clear why he suspects me, exactally; it bugs me that at first he called me town, and then when I casually mentioned I suspect him, he started saying he suspects me, but never explained it. It feels like he's trying to position himself so he can justify getting on a wagon on me later, while trying to avoid a fight with me right now; he keeps doing these "well, i suspect Yos, for vague reasons, but I'm going to vote for person X instead" things that are giving me bad vibes.

That being said, unless I get some actual reason to think he's town, I don't really plan on to be unvoting FD at any point from now until one of us is dead. I'm tired of giving in to compromise wagons that I'm not as confident about while the obvscum guys just keep gliding through day after day.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yos:

That being said, I'm not as convinced as I was for most of yesterday of FD being scum. Feels like if he was scum, he'd have been more likely to use the fact that me and Cayke's reads were somewhat different at the end of the day yesterday as a BS reason to continue to attack us, instead of writing us off as probably town because of it.

You said this way back at the start of Day 2. What do you think about it now?

Meh. Now, I kind of think that that was primarily a way for him to try to disengage with us, while focusing on trying to get FES lynched, who was a bigger threat to him. The timing of the coming and going of his suspicions seems way too convenient to be likely here.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I'd also say the same about Incognito, so his suspicion on me feels wrong. I'm not clear why he suspects me, exactally; it bugs me that at first he called me town, and then when I casually mentioned I suspect him, he started saying he suspects me, but never explained it. It feels like he's trying to position himself so he can justify getting on a wagon on me later, while trying to avoid a fight with me right now; he keeps doing these "well, i suspect Yos, for vague reasons, but I'm going to vote for person X instead" things that are giving me bad vibes.

I'm still going back and forth on you actually. The biggest things that I haven't liked about you are the following:

1) I think your defense of Frogito Ergo Sum seems really unnatural. It's weird to me how you've accused Final Destination of lurking and looking scummy for it but have ignored people who I'd consider to be either worse offenders of lurking or on par with FD - namely FES, Copper, Unicorn Brethren. With FES in particular, you've had this unwavering town read of them for reasons that I can't completely comprehend.

Eh; I'm not going to attack someone if I think they're town, not. I agree it'd be better if FES posted more, but every time they do post, it just screams town to me; both CES and Shanba are fitting their town meta to a T here.

I mean, just go back and look at day 1, based on the alignment flips we have so far. Ether and Gummybears was fighting, what we now know for a fact was a town on town fight, and what did he do? He disagreed with Ether, saying her case on Gummybears was weak, but he did it without attacking Ether or calling her scummy at all. He later defended Ether and implied that he thought she was town (for example, here):

Oh and more people should trust Yos' ability to read Ether.

Later, though, when she was trying to push the US wagon (another mislynch), he opposed her, said he didn't necessarily trust her reads and refused to let her pressure him into joining the US wagon (another town wagon), and in fact argued against the US wagon, while still not attacking Ether at all.

That's 2 separate town v town fights on day 1, the kind of thing scum generally love to throw propane on and get to flare up, and in both cases he basically defended both sides against each other, refusing to take either side or to vote for either one of them. He wasn't trying to get mislynches, and he wasn't trying to get friends or form a faction either. He was just trying to stop pro-town people from getting lynched, while trying to push wagons on FD and, the next day, on Spot.

I understand that he hasn't posted all that often. But look at what he has done. Based on what we know right now, it looks like his action pretty clearly had both pro-town intent and pro-town results. There's really no gain for him trying to play like that as scum; scum generally don't see town vs town fights and try to wade in and disarm it, there's no gain in that and lots of risk; they're much more likely to try to either get a mislynch, or try to make both sides look bad, or try to get an ally.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yos, your read on Copper, please.

Meh. Null to mildly scummy. Like I mentioned before, I really hate the way he voted FES and put him at L -2 just because FES wanted to keep his vote on FD on day 2 when no one else was. Copper later justified this as "trying to force people to place a vote that matters", but it still seems really heavy handed and somewhat anti-town.

Other then that, I wouldn't say I have a read on the role at all, which in and of itself is mildly damning. They've been fairly noncommital for much of the game.

The one big, surprising move they did, which was to suddenly leave the FES wagon for the Balam wagon, actually struck me as mildly pro-town, although I'm not sure I can explain why, other then to say that it felt more, I don't know, proactive then I'd expect from Copper as scum (scum tend to be more reactive then proactive). But other then that, most of Copper's posts have been very careful and tepid, with a lot of moderate in-between positions. And, of course, Copper really hasn't made that many posts.

Copper could go either way; and because he's made so few solid commitments, he could be scum with almost anyone in the game. I don't want to lynch him today, though; there are scummier players, and if we don't lynch scum today I think we're in trouble.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I'm getting tired of seething with rage. Can we get somewhere with this game?

See, this is the kind of thing that I really hate. It's like the people in this game just lock a vote down and go into shut-down mode where they feel like nothing else needs to be commented on and that a lynch should just happen already. You have nothing new to comment on over the last page or so?

(nods) Yeah, he's not even pretending to read my posts anymore. There's a reason i've stopped bothering trying to reason with this guy.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

The other two are interested that RayFrost's 968 got next to no attention, while RayFrost is mildly sad his posts have apparently been ignored in general.

(looks back)

You mean RayFrost's case against PC in 968? I wouldn't say I ignored that. I didn't respond to it, but I agree with the case, and it's similar to the case I made against Incog.

(AGar)

Also, oh look. As soon as attention switches to Copper over FD, FD starts lurking again. Who could possibly have predicted that?

Ooh, ooh! Pick me! Pick me!

Yeah. This is how FD has gotten through the game; fought like a wildcat when attacked, then goes under the radar whenever he's not. And we're letting it work; this is why he hasn't been lynched yet.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yos came down so hard on the fence, that his colon probably has splinters.

Lol.

I think Copper is a null/mildly scummy read, and a semilurker. I'd usually love to lynch someone like that. But the thing is, that's what we did yesterday; there were basically two faction fighting, it was deadlocked, so everyone gave up and lynched a mildly scummy looking semi-lurker who was on neither side, Gummybears. The Copper wagon feels like the same thing happening again.

That being said, he could be scum. I just don't want us all to compromise on an iffy lynch again.

I like the FD vote. That seems like a much better wagon.

I have a problem guys. Incognito is town.

That's not a problem at all. If he is town, and you can convince me of it, we can just about solve this game.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yos explaining why FES is town is just HIM KNOWING THAT FES IS TOWN.

No one ELSE has attributed that pro-town motivation to FES because he's trolling so hard WHO THE FUCK WOULD KNOW HE WAS TOWN except for scum?

And, as usual, Fate isn't bothering to respond to the actual reasons I gave. His argument is still "Yos is scum because Yos is scum". And, as usual, he shows up and starts posting again as soon as he realizes he's in danger again.

When the hell was FES "trolling"? He's not the one who's been posting in all caps and using emotion and spam and garbage to try to keep himself alive, that's you.

FD is still scum.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I don't really understand FD's defense. It's like he reads what my other head says, then does exactly what he is accused of doing, and then acts as if the whole thing's been put to rest. What sort of idiots are you used to playing with?

Yos:

That's actually a pretty decent explanation. Urgh.

- Incog

Has anyone else in this game actually listened and been convinced by someone's explanation? Incognito is just about the only one not trying to engage in a shouting match to prove his point, and that's town as hell. This post alone convinces me that he's town. The whole exchange between you and Incognito just screams town.

Do you think Incognito's scum or do you think the slot is scum? I have thought for a while that the slot is scum because they've played like it. I tend to give more weight to replacements than the original though.

Well, I'm taking a wait and see approach here. Yes, that was a pro-town reaction, but more relevent is what he does with that argument; will his future behavior be consistant with his accepting of my logic now, ect. I will say that, as scum, Incognito is quite capable of acting in a seeming logical and reasonable way, but still somehow making votes that benifit the scum, and it kind of feels like that's what's going on here, although without any flips it's hard to say for sure.

As for if it's the slot or if it's Incognito, it's both; a lot of it is the slot, but I'd probaby be a little wary of Incog here based my gut read on his behavior.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I lied. I can't stop thinking about this game haha. Last one for real though.

Yos, I have a bit of an exercise for you. I want you to look at this:

This is a stupid discussion.

The following people are town so far:
Unicorns
Final Destination
DaSpot
Probably Yosarian, I guess.

Then this:

Pathetric the Vanilla Townie

has been killed.

And then think about which TWO players you've spent the most amount of time attacking all game.

(nods)

It's worth mentioning that Ether was pushing the Fate wagon early on day 1 pretty hard. She had changed her mind by this point and decided that FD was probably town, but she didn't sound as sure of that towards the end of the day.

Also, you do realize this very "why was Ether killed" argument makes you look bad, right?

If she was killed because of who she was likely to vote the next day, then that would be Beaver, the guy you replaced:

Yeah we're lynching Mastin next.

-Ether

Or, if she was killed because the scum thought she was a power role...that also implicates Beaver, since he was speculating in thread about Ether being a mason at the end of day 1:

Your interactions with Ether/Patrick are not indicitive of someone who is not sure of anothers allignment. You interact with them as if you know beyond a shodow of a doubt that they are town and for that there are two options: you are scum or you are masons (or a daycop, but this is a normal...)

[YosFlavouredCayke]

On another note, I notice that Fonz made a solid, logical argument against FD in post Post #1137, Fate responded with 4 angry posts, but never actually responded to the main thrust of Lord Fonzi's arguments.

He ignored the intellegent arguments about his incredibly conveinet switch on Copper, his switch on balam, his inconstancy towards me and FES, and just basically ranted about how his activity wasn't a scumtell while ignoring everything else.

It's not that he didn't have time to respond. He obviously did, considering how many words he crapped into the thread in a row there. It's not that he didn't read Fonzi's post; he cherry picked parts of it he felt he could respond to. I think the real answer is that FD knows Fonzi has him dead to rights, he knows Fonzi's nailed him to a wall here, so he's trying to change the subject. His accusation that Fonz is "ignoring Copper" is beyond stupid, considering how Fonz was pushing the Copper wagon for a long time, and I'm sure he knows that.

FD is scum, and he's caught scum. He just thinks he can get away with ignoring the real case against him if he floods the thread with crap whenever he gets attacked.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

NO TOWN PERSON CAN EXPLAIN THEM AS WELL BECAUSE THEY DONT KNOW FOR SURE. THEY WOULDNT STICK THEIR NECK OUT THEIR TO DEFEND A POSSIBLE SCUMBAG, SPECIALLY WHEN THEY CANT

REALLY

KNOW THE MOTIVATIONS FOR ALL OF THEIR POSTINGS, WITHOUT KNOWING THEIR ALIGNMENT.

Also, the fact that FD is trying to make this argument is just further proof that he's scum.

This is the guy who, in a different game, FAKE-CLAIMED RECRUITING MASON as town in order to try to protect someone who he thought seemed pro-town, basically based on a gut read.

And now he's claiming that it's impossible for a pro-town person to stick out their neck to defend someone, based on a solid town read of their behavior?

This guy is scum. There is zero chance he actually believes anything he's saying here.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

With as much sense and logic as Yos' defense of FES made, post 1155 stands in really stark contrast.

unvote, vote: YosFlavouredCayke

Excuse me? What, exactally, is wrong with my post 1155?

This is exactally the kind of oppertunistic behavior I was talking about, incog. This is the kind of thing that makes me think you're scum, probably scum with Fate, this game.

That's L-1. I'd like a claim.

Really reluctant to claim just because I've got the scum group voting for me here.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

(AGar)

YFC:

=======[]

Claim.

Hold on. I really want to see how incog justifies this before I even consider about claiming, or anything else. This is key here.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yeah,

ME

I fake-claimed mason to protect a town read. You? You would never go that far, show me one instance as town where you've EVER GONE THIS far in defending them.

I'm fucking serious. Show me one case that is parallel to the way you've defended FES. Because you've never even once tentatively called him scum.

I don't fake claim as town, of course; that's stupid. But I defend people I think are town all the time, this hard or harder.

Last time I was town, in Oldy mafia, I had town reads on:

-CES
-Ythill (even though he was trying to lynch me)
-Dripping Goofball
-Fritzler
-Later in the game, on chamber, although I suspected him earlier.

I defended all those people whenever they were attacked, to the hilt. I was right about every one of them, too, even though my scum reads were a little less accurate.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15653&user_select=1155&start=25

I have no idea where you're getting this odd meta from, Fate. When I have a town read on someone, I'll go to the wall to defend them. I trust my town reads on people to be accurate far more then I trust my scum reads to be accurate.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

(AGar)

No, I don't think you understand.

You're claiming in your next post.

You don't understand. We need to get an explanation out of Incog, now, before I kill this wagon by claiming.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Meh. Soft claim dosn't actually hurt the town here. Scum won't kill me for implying I might have a power role, they've invested too much effort into trying to lynch me.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Reposting:

(AGar)

RayFrost is curious to the reasoning of your interest in Incognito's reactions, Yos.

I strongly suspect Incog to be scum here. When Incog is scum, he acts in a reasonable manner when he's confronted with solid arguments, but then goes ahead and does whatever helps his scum team win anyway even if it conflicts with his earlier "reasonable" behavior. That is exactally what it feels like here. First, he calls me town. Then, when I say I suspect him, he starts attacking me. He is reasonable and logical when I make good arugments about FES, but then as soon as I repeat an earlier reason for suspecting him, he ignores everything and just puts me at lynch -1. It's not like I even said anything new in the post he's voting me for, but it dosn't matter to him. Notice he dosn't even bother to say what, exactally, he dosn't like in that post.

This does not look like incog-town behavior. I really doubt that he would act this way as town. He needs to explain himself, and he need to do it right now, because I'm pretty sure he just did an absolutly ironclad example of an incognito scumtell here.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Unvote: YosCayke

ps: Yos, I don't know whether this is kosher to ask in a game like this but how active is cayke in your alt?

She hasn't really played much since day 1.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

By the way, Balam, it's becoming increasingly likely here that both you and Mastermate are both town. Neither of your reactions to me being at lynch -1 make sense coming from scum. Matermate's reaction is especally town; on hearing me imply that I might be a pro-town power role, if Matermate was scum and you are town, he would gladly just sit back and wait to see if you hammered me, rather then unvote me like that.

If you do lynch me today, Balam, then please don't continue your tunneling on that player slot, or you will almost certainly cost the town the game.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Excuse me? What, exactally, is wrong with my post 1155?

I brought up an area of the thread that I really thought might make you at LEAST pause and reconsider your thoughts about Final Destination and DaSpot, and instead of doing what I thought you'd do as town, you found even more silly reasons to suspect that slot and then you threw some more suspicions on me. I don't even get the reasons why you mentioned that stuff about Ether suspecting Beaver - of course I know that Pathetric dying makes me look bad, but I don't mind thinking about other reasons why Pathetric might have died because I'm town and I know Pathetric didn't die because of me.

If your defense for Fate was was "Ether thought FD was town, so FD is town", then Fate already tried to use that defense back during day 1. It was lame then, and it's lame now. Ether's not perfect, and in fact, she started out attacking Fate before she changed her mind. I think she was right in the first place, and then doubted herself when she shouldn't have; she's done that before.

If your defense is "Ether was killed despite the fact that she thought Fate was town", that argument is only relevent if the scum don't have another likely reason for killing Ether. In this case, they do, especally if you are scum.

Why would you expect to change my mind by reahashing old arguments that have been shot down days ago?

You've been way too consistent and unwavering in this game. Yes, you brought up decent reasons for why FES might be town, but you haven't done that with anyone else - you've just been beating your drum all game about how DaSpot and FD need to be lynched, FES needs to live, and you don't seem to care about much else that goes on around the game the way I think you would as town.

Are you now claiming that I haven't commented on anything other then FD, Spot, and FES? Because you know that's not true. For one thing, I've obviously attacked you. I've also commented on balam, on unicorn and their replacement, on gummy, on, well, on everything that's been going on all game. If you've been reading my posts, then you know where I stand on every single person in the game.

I think what you mean is that you don't like that I'm still voting for Fate, and you can't convince me not to do so. If you really want me to unvote Fate, why don't you actually bother to answer some, or, well, any, of the reasons I've given for suspecting him? For that matter, why did you complety ignore the really strong case Fonzi made against Fate last page? You just keep defending him, and I don't even know why, and you don't seem to even care what the case against him is. There's no way you, as town, would just ignore such a strong logical case made by strong players like Fonz and Gurgi without even considering it.

Everyone, PC is scum, period. I'd lynch him today over Fate if we could get enough votes.

There's this guy in Mafia Discussion who you might know who everyone agrees with and who constantly harps on about how "consistency is scum-tell." That's basically been you all game.

"Consistancy is a scumtell" dosn't mean "when you've caught scum, but you can't get a majority of people to agree with you right away, you should just give up and do something else".

And if you think I've never hesitated or changed my mind this game, again, you clearly aren't at all reading my posts.

Now claim.

Thhhpppbbtt.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

My point is Pathetric was a town player who looked like they were going to have a lot of influence on the game if they were still alive. ...It's not very often that scum go ahead and kill the people that they know they can get some support from.

So...if you believe that, then why are you voting me?

Despite all that, you've just ignored that evidence and have gone on voting Final Destination and DaSpot like it's nobody's business. I mean, even Frogito Ergo Sum admitted on the last page or two that Ether's comment there and subsequent death made them reconsider their thoughts about DaSpot. Couple that with the fact that Greymarble, ANOTHER person who thought they all looked town, died last Night and... you can see where I'm going with this.

So...your argument is that if i was town, i would have noticed this pattern and it would have affected my thinking, huh?

I'm assuming you somehow missed the fact that early in the day I made with this post:

Now, the kill of Grey was bizarre. I mean, almost everyone said he was town, but still, I don't get it. I will say that the death of grey is one reason I didn't start off the day voting for Spot, like I'd intended to; Grey was a huge defender of Spot, and it'd be strange for Spot to kill Grey.

and then haven't attacked spot all day?

And this might be a bit of WIFOM, but do you really think that a me-scum would dig back to an area of the thread that I know would make me look bad just defend someone else? Your thinking just doesn't seem town at all for you to just throw that bit about Beaver right back in my face.

I think you and Fate are so closely tied together at this point, largly due to the mistakes of your predicessors, that you, as scum, wouldn't be able afford to let your scumbuddy get lynched at this point.

And if you think I've never hesitated or changed my mind this game, again, you clearly aren't at all reading my posts.

You've been here all game and have only serious voted two people.
If that's not focusing on just two people while ignoring everyone else, then I don't know what is.

THREE people. Why do you keep ignoring that I spent about a third of the game trying to lynch the guy who you replaced?

So, yes, over 3 days, I've gone back and forth between 3 main suspects. That's like a quarter of the people in the game.

Why aren't you claiming?
- Incog

Only wimps claim to pressure.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yosarian, I was talking about Ether's confident reads there. "Probably Yosarian, I guess" is far from confident.

So, I guess you completly failed to notice that for the rest of the day, both Ether and Patrick continues to call me town, huh? That "Probably Yosarian" was quite early in the day; they seemed much more confident of my town alignment later in the day.

This series of blind spots on your part is harder and harder to believe.

If you're actually town, it's your duty to the town to claim right here right now instead of trying to make this into a typing contest with me.

That's just the thing. It's not a typing contest, or at least it shouldn't be. If you were town, you woulnd't be worried about a "typing contest", you'd be trying to figure out my alignment right now. You'd be reading what I'm saying, you'd be thinking. for one thing, you'd probably have noticed that I just disproved every reason you just gave for suspecting me. But as it is, you don't seem to care.

Pro-town incognito would be trying to figure out my alignment. You clearly are not. It's becoming increasingly obvious you just want to lynch me, and don't actually care what my alignment is.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

(AGar)

Grab your ball sacks and lynch scum before they fakeclaim. I've done it many a time and it feels

so good.

No, that won't be happening. We wanted a claim, and we threatened to move without a claim in order to force a claim, not hammer away without care.

I think you're town, Balam, and I think I got as much information out of incog with this little game of brinksminship as I'm likely to, so if you still want me to claim, I will. I don't really think it'll accomplish much at this point, though.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

(AGar)

Grab your ball sacks and lynch scum before they fakeclaim. I've done it many a time and it feels

so good.

No, that won't be happening. We wanted a claim, and we threatened to move without a claim in order to force a claim, not hammer away without care.

I think you're town, Balam, and I think I got as much information out of incog with this little game of brinksminship as I'm likely to, so if you still want me to claim, I will. I don't really think it'll accomplish much at this point, though.

if you're not claiming shut up and take some rope.

hey, there's this new game where the idea is to listen to what people say and try to figure out their alignment. It's called "mafia". You should try it some time, it's fun.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yos, claim please.

(shrug) Ok.

I am a jail keeper. Night 1, we targeted Beaver, and night 2, we targeted spot.

Like I said; it's not an especially useful claim, because it's not proof of alignment. Fate is just going to accuse me of being a scum roleblocker or whatever, and it doesn't really give the town useful information at this point, it just makes it easier for scum to wifom to dodge my ability. But, whatever, deadline is on may first, and you guys weren't going to move on until I claimed for whatever reason, so fine.

We need to get an explanation out of Incog, now,

before I kill this wagon by claiming

.

I think you're town, Balam, and I think I got as much information out of incog with this little game of brinksminship as I'm likely to, so if you still want me to claim, I will.

I don't really think it'll accomplish much at this point, though.

Why the change?

I was trying to get a reaction, obviously; playing games at lynch -1 is risky as hell, but it's the surest way to get information. Matermate's reaction was to unvote me so I didn't get hammered before claiming; your reaction was to ignore everything I said and keep trying to get me lynched. He's town, you're much less likely to be.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

So why did you target beaver over, say, pathetric? You could've easily protected your

strongest town read

rather than going half cock on the possibility of blocking the scum NK. I'm guessing you chose to go half cock on te possibility for a reason, but I'm at a loss as to your relative benefit vs reward from a town-perspective on the matter.

When you're a jailkeeper, you're generally better off trying to roleblock a scum kill then trying to doc protect a townie. The odds are close to the same same; if there's 11 people alive, you have a 1/10 chance of roleblocking the scum nightkill (1/10 because you're not going to target yourself) or 1/11 chance of doc protecting, but if you target someone you think is town, there's a fairly high risk that you might roleblock a town power role. If you target someone who is town, and there's either 1 or 2 other town power roles out of 7 other living pro-town people (assuming 3 scum, then on night 1 there were 7 pro-town people other then me), then the odds of blocking another townie's role ability are significantly higher then the odds of stopping a scum kill.

If there's a claimed mason, or a claimed vanilla townie who's cop confirmed, or something like that, then obviously that changes. Short of that, I don't think it's generally worth the risk of to target someone you have a strong town read on. Most of the time, I think jailkeeper usually works better when used mostly as a roleblocker then as a doctor.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

To be honest, I don't like Yos' reason for suggesting Mastermate is town, same as I didn't like his point about FES and the giving warning of L-1. If Balam is town, the chance of them quickhammering is pretty slim. 'Watch out, L-1' type behaviour is something I often see from scum, because it looks townish, but doesn't actually hurt the scumteam's chances that much.

Meh. When Balam basically told me to claim right away or he was going to hammer me, and then I didn't claim, I don't know what the odds of Balam hammering me at that point were, but I don't think they were zero. All Matermate would have had to do was keep his vote on me and not post for a day or so. Zero risk on his part, no one ever gets called on "not posting for a day", and if it works, lynch done, town power role dead, with Balam getting all the blame for it.

I mean, in theory, you're right; any apparent pro-town action could be made by scum trying to get town cred. In this case, though, it seems really unlikely.

(That said, MM is still town due to Unitard Brethren's attempt to break the game with QTs).

(nods) Yeah; I'll admit I was starting to have doubts about Unicorn towards the end there, but for the most part, they looked pretty town throughout.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

your reaction was to ignore everything I said and keep trying to get me lynched

.

He's town, you're much less likely to be

.

Riiiiiiiiight

.

I can see why you might think Mastermate's reaction was townish but what about Balam's whose reaction you also claimed was townish? Why would scum not react the way Balam reacted there?

Well, I did say "moreso mastermate"; his reaction was very pro-town, balam's wasn't quite as clear. Still, at that point, Balam knew I was a pro-town power role, and I basically gave him the perfect chance to get rid of me and seem totally justified in doing so. He might have hesitated in dropping the hammer right away if he was scum, out of fear of looking bad, but I'd still expect Balam-scum to have continued to work up to a point when he could get away with it; instead he kind of backed off and gave me room to breathe. I think he wanted to see your response almost as much as i did.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I do, yeah, sorry. And thanks. They were both roles that I suggested to a buddy as falseclaims in the last game I was mafia in and I was pondering on the connotations of that whilst I wrote it.

@Yos: That's viable, and it's the plausible argument I wondered if you were going to make. I don't agree, I prefer defensive protection early game because it's so easy for scums to give their kills to their least suspected members to avoid RBs and Tracks, and I prefer the doc options to prevent a kill. Also because I think it's unlikely for you to actually block another town ability, but I do think I'm risking the odds a little so I agree with you there.

Well, there are some other minor factors to take into account as well; there could be scum power roles, for example. Plus, there's the information factor; if I had targeted Beaver, and there had been a missing kill, I would have been about 80% sure that I had prevented the scum kill by roleblocked him, since there's very little chance of scum trying to kill Beaver night 1. On the other hand, if I targeted someone who looked pro-town and there's a missing kill, it doesn't really tell me anything solid (precisely because of the "scum tend to give the kill to their least suspected members" factor).

I will also say that I wasn't really expecting the scum to try to kill Ether. People forget, she had a 3 man bandwagon voting for her at one point on day 1, and after she basically pushed through a mislynch at the end of the day, I was expecting the scum to try to lynch her on day 2.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yos, have you ever been a JK before? If so, link to the game.

- Incog

I don't remember ever being a jailkeeper, offhand.

Of course, I did invent the role, years ago, and I've therefore thought about the strategic implications a lot.

So YFC thinks that a jailkeeper is better off trying to prevent a scum nk by targeting scum than by protecting. Thus, it can be assumed he must have had a scum read on us Day 1 since he targeted BW, our predecessor, N1. However, if you look at his voting patterns, YFC votes FD up until deadline is at hand, and then he switches to UB. He never votes for our slot until Day 2 - after he targeted us. Furthermore, if you go through his iso, he mentions us twice - once in ISO 17, where he accuses us of being lurkerscum and once in ISO 31, where he says we're mason-fishing and defends against arguments made by BW. That's it, over all of day 1. In the same ISO 17 where he says we're lurkerscum, he says that he has an outright scumread on FD. So why would town JK YFC choose to target us over FD in hopes of preventing a scum nk night 1?

Hmm? That's exactly why I targeted you, of course. I thought that part was obvious.

As Mastermate just said:

. I don't agree, I prefer defensive protection early game because it's so easy for scums to give their kills to their least suspected members to avoid RBs and Tracks

Scum are generally going to give the scum kill to a member of their team who has not been attacked recently. Fate came very close to being lynched on day 1; the scum weren't going to send him out to do a kill. So whenever you use a roleblocker type ability, if you can (and it's not always possible), you should target someone who's probably scum, but who hasn't been attacked, who isn't under major suspicion. Beaver fit the bill perfectly.

At the end of day 1, I thought there was a very high chance Beaver was scum, but I hadn't really attacked him in thread. No one had, really. That makes him the best possible roleblock choice; someone who seemed likely scum, but who the scum wouldn't have known was under suspicion at the time.

Last night, I couldn't come up with a target that good. There was really no one I suspected who hadn't spent a lot of time under attack; I actually talked about it with Cayke, and she didn't have any better ideas, either, so we just targeted spot, who at the time seemed so obviously scum that at least there was no risk of doing harm from blocking him. But night 1, you were by far the most logical target.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yos, my question was why choose us - your lurkerscum read - over FD, your scummy mcscummerson read. How did you think scum was going to stop your roleblock?

I just answered that. Scum can generally send anyone they want to do the kill, so they won't send out a member of their group who has a lot of pro-town people suspicious of them, because they're the most likely to get tracked or roleblocked. Ideally, they'll send out someone who hasn't been attacked at all.

So the job of the town roleblocker, or tracker, or jail keeper or whatever, is ideally to find a scum who hasn't been attacked in thread and block that guy.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I'm also rather confused about how Mastermate could think we didn't give logical arguments for why Ether was obviously town on day 1, or for why we didn't give logical arguments for why FD is scum. I mean, of course I'm very much a gut player, always have been, but I used a great deal of logic as well in both cases.

And this is just odd:

Comments like "Ether doesn't say she's town unless she's town" have no real meaning in a game of mafia.

There are no rules about what can and can't be a tell, matermate. If Cayke believed that Ether saying that is a town tell for her, and she's correct about that (and she probably is, IMHO), then of course she should say so, especially considering that multiple people were voting the obviously town Ether for terrible reasons at the time.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

The math you used in your 1218 is almost insulting; it's all too convenient that you'd "make" the two things (roleblocking and doctoring) completely equal to each other by using math that only works under ONE assumption:
That Night choices are made 100% randomly.

Not at all. The math works just as well if you assume that I have about the same skill at figuring out who's going to make the kill as I do at figuring out who's likely to get nightkilled.

But since this is the game of Mafia and since I know you're a good player, I'm going to assume that choices in this game aren't made 100% randomly; they're made based off of things that go on in the thread.

Let me simplify this:

1)

You claimed to have had an almost 100% town read on Pathetric.

2)

Even if you WERE 100% right about your scum reads, you'd have a certain percentage chance of roleblocking the CORRECT scum on Night 1 which is dependent on however many scum are in this game (whatever that number is is irrelevant; it'd certainly be less than that 100% town read you had on Pathetric though).

So, if I have a 100% correct town read on someone, that means they're 100% going to be nightkilled? Of course not.

If I have a 100% town read on one player, they still aren't that likely to get nightkilled; it's much less likely then the chance a correct scum read of mine is going to make the nightkill.

Did you miss the part where I already explained why I didn't expect the scum to try to kill Ether?

Given that, it makes only LOGICAL sense that a pro-town Jailkeeper would absolutely 100% protect the town read they had on Night 1 since no scums were hit on Day 1 and that probability number is going to be greater than the probability of stopping a kill (almost 100% (assuming you were right about your town read which in this case you would have been) compared to a lot less than 100%). No questions asked.

No, that's stupid.

I've been a doctor several times in mafia games; newbie games, mostly. You know how often I've successfully stopped a nightkill as a doctor?

Zero times. It's never happened.

I had good town reads in some of those game, but that's not nearly enough to be a successful doctor. You have to both figure out who's the most likely scum target, and then figure out if the scum are going to WIFOM around the possibility of a doctor and kill someone else instead.

It's really damn rare for a doctor to actually stop the scum kill. It's one of the hardest things to do in mafia. Read through 10 newbie games at random, and see how many of them had a sucessful doc protection.

Not that sucessfully roleblocking a scum is much easier, of course, but your logic, which seems to be "if you had a town read on someone then there is a 100% chance that they are going to be killed" is just horrible.

And, of course, that's without the risk of roleblocking a town power role. For a jailkeeper, trying to play doctor is much riskier.

Your argument is almost like saying the following: I create a role similar to a Jailkeeper. Instead of forcing you to choose a player outside of yourself to protect/roleblock though, I give you the option of JK-ing yourself (a person you know to be 100% town). You're trying to tell me that even given that situation, you'd choose to try to roleblock scum as opposed to protecting yourself especially on a Night 1 after no scum have been lynched?

Depends on the situation. If I thought I was going to be killed, sure. Of course, that completely negates the main reason you don't go around jailkeeping random townies, which is that you'll probably end up screwing over a power role.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

why did you protect them? YES you can RB them. but your giving the people that YOU think that are scum protection.

Um...that dosn't make any sense. Protect them against what?

I mean, there's a small risk you might accidently protect a scum from being vig killed, but in a closed setup where there's no reason to think there's a vig, that's unlikely enough to not be worth worrying about.

Jailkeeper is basically a roleblocker. Yes, you can run it the other way and try to be a doctor instead, but you're less likely to stop a kill that way, and if you do that you'll probably end up blocking the wrong guy and screwing over the town.

I mean, if you really disagree with how I've used the jailkeeper role this game, feel free to discuss it in mafia discussion. From your posting so far, though, I'm pretty sure that if I'd gone the other way, you'd be like "WHY WOULD A TOWN JK ROLEBLOCK PEOPLE HE KNOWS ARE TOWN? LYNCH THE LYING SCUM RIGHT AWAY!" You just take whatever I do and invent some scum motivation for it, no matter how little sense this makes, and it's become unbelivably wearying.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

no...

you block people that are town. you DO have a one in 12 chance of a success the odds grow considerably when you don't random.org it.

you can think right?

you probably had 3 or 4 or 5 people on your town list D1?

you ARE a considerable player are you not?

so you'd have confidence in your town reads right?

so much so that you have a feeling that one of them MAY in fact DIE.

don't you want the biggest threat to scum to survive? guaranteed?

THEN WHATS THE RISK? YOU DYING?

what ever game you are playing. it's not town.

The goal is to stop the scum from killing, period. It dosn't matter if you do that by roleblocking the killer, or by protecting the townie that the scum plan to kill. The result is the same

Yeah, I do wish I had protected Ether. If she was alive, this game would be going so much more smoothly right now. But in general, you are going to succeed in stopping kills more often by targeting the scum then by targeting the town.

I don't know why people keep acting like I'm going to be targeting people at random. Of course I'm not. But if my reads are perfect, which of course they aren't going to be but let's pretend, and I target a pro-town person, I'm still probably not going to target the same townie that the scum kill. If my reads are perfect, and I target a scum, I'm much more likely to target the right scum; 1/3 chance instead of 1/8 chance.

Besides; like I said, if I was going to guess which pro-town person the scum were going to kill, it wouldn't have been Ether. I thought the scum (IE: Beaver and Fate) were going to go back to trying to lynch Ether instead. They made a pretty good try at it day 1, and she led a mislynch at the end of day 1, so I would have thought they'd try to lynch her again rather then nightkill her. Obviously I was wrong.

hey, there's this new game where the idea is to listen to what people say and try to figure out their alignment. It's called "mafia". You should try it some time, it's fun.

by and by. is this a rebuttal or a put down?

either way I am playing. don't insult me.

My point was, if you are town, then it feels like you've turned your brain off and stopped thinking. You've decided Fate is town, you've decided I'm scum and FES is scum, and you don't care to hear any argument from anyone that doesn't agree with what you've already decided. You called balam scum for not quickhammering me, which is just completly bonkers. Anyone who disagrees with you must be scum; any facts that don't fit your tunnel you ignore. I've mostly stopped bothering responding to your posts, because it's become obvious that there's no point.

So, yeah, I don't think you're actually reading posts and trying to figure stuff out at this point. I don't think you've done that for days. You're not playing mafia, you're playing, I don't know, debate club or something. If you're not scum, and I have to consider the possibility here that you might not be, then you are tunneling so hardcore it might cost the town the game.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yos, my argument isn't so much that you having a town read automatically means that person's going to get killed; it's that you seemed pretty positive that Pathetric was town and that you therefore should have had them on auto-protect for so long as they lived... or at least on Night 1 when your chances of roleblocking a scum were much much lower than your chances of correctly protecting a pro-town player.

Why do you keep saying that?

How are my "chances of roleblocking a scum night 1 much lower then my chance of correctly protecting a pro-town player"? It seems quite obvious to me that the opposite is true. Roleblocking a scum night 1 is far more likely to work then protecting one pro-town player at semi-random. Even though I was confident that Ether and FES were town, that dosn't mean I can guess who the scum are going to nightkill. Hell, they might have decided to nightkill me for all I knew.

Trying to guess who the scum are going to nightkill, in a situation without a role-confirmed pro-town person or a power claim or something, is such a shot in the dark. You still haven't explained how I was supposed to be "100% confident" that the scum were going to target either instead of one of the other 7 townies.

(As an aside: if it was any other pro-town player that you had just a decent read on, I'd probably give you more leeway on this but this was Pathetric, a player who a you-town would be quite quite quite capable of accurately reading their alignment due to meta and all that jazz. To a hypo you-town, reading Pathetric as town would almost be as second nature as just reading a town role PM in the inbox.)

Well, yes. Of course I can read Ether, and I did. The ease at which I can read Ether is one of the main reason your buddy Fate has given for attacking me since early on day 1.

I saw the part where you explained why you thought Pathetric would be alive the next Day, yeah; quite frankly, I don't really buy it since the wagon on them couldn't have ever been really serious (I think it amounted to something dumb like "they LIED to the town for claiming to be a newb in their first post!". Beaver was clearly an idiot).

Well, Beaver gave a crappy reason for voting for Ether, but then he left his vote on her for ages, from February 26th all the way up to March 9th. Wasn't like he wasn't around then, either; he made 6 posts on other subjects while keeping his vote on Ether. You don't do that if you're not "serious". At least, not if you're town.

Fate was also pretty clearly serious about his Ether vote. He didn't keep the vote on for that long, I think mostly because he got stiff resistance from me about the subject, but he spent 6 posts in a row attacking her before backing off (if you read him in ISO, it's his posts 7-13). He was pretty damn serious about his attack on her.

And all that was before she incorrectly pushed through the US wagon.

The point about being worried about blocking a potential town PR seems like you're presenting a false dilemma; even if you submit Jailkeeps on the targets you find to be scummiest, you still run the risk of blocking a potential pro-town player because you just might have been incorrect with your read. So no.

Wait, what? So, first, you're saying I should have protected Ether because I should have known she was town; now, you're saying that I don't have any ability at telling the difference between town and scum?

I was confident Ether was town, and if you target someone you are confident is town, you obviously are more likely to roleblock a town power role then if you target someone that looks scummy. Unless you're arguing that me trying to read someone's alignment on day 1 is no better then random.org, which is the exact opposite of what you've been arguing all along.

If one specific player is obviously town, and you jailkeep them, of course there is a higher risk that they're a pro-town power role then a player who isn't obvtown. If you do jailkeep a scum, then even if you don't stop the kill, at least you're not stopping a pro-town power role, by definition. So you're better off trying to target scum then town.

Anyway, I really hate how you've managed to sidetrack the entire discussion with this mostly useless mafia theory argument. I really think you're just trying to run the clock down to deadline at this point.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I have nothing more to say to you right now, Yos. You're pissing me off because I really can't believe this could genuinely all be going over your head.

Going OVER my head?

Your entire theory was that if you protect someone you have a pro-town read on, you have "a 100% chance of stopping a nightkill". That's so obviously wrong I can't believe you said it, but even after I pointed out how obviously wrong it is, you're still sticking to it.

Yes, if I knew the scum were going to kill Ether, I would have targeted her. Just as obviously, there is no way I could have possibly have known that without the benefit of hindsight.

Whatever. There's no point in trying to convince scum of anything, so I'm not going to bother. I'm sure the rest of the town has seen enough to realize that you can't possibly believe what you're saying here.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Anyway, let's not get distracted. Today, we're lynching Fate, like we should have done days ago. When he flips scum, everything in this game is going to get a lot simpler.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

No, Yos. This is exactly what I was saying:

If Yos was 9000% sure she was town (as he claims he is and was), then

his duty as a protective role is to ensure her survival for as long as he's fucking breathing.

That is what a doc is SUPPOSED to do, not dance around with WIFOM "lol teheheh they wont NK the claimed cop so..."

THE DOC IS SUPPOSED TO ENSURE WITHOUT A DOUBT THAT THE PERSON THEY PROTECT WILL BE ALIVE IN THE FUCKING MORNING. THAT IS ALL.

It's funny how you and FES are probably the only ones in the entire thread who either don't get what I'm saying or are choosing to be obtuse about it.

I'M NOT A DOCTOR.

The job of the DOCTOR is to keep the cop alive, or, if there is no cop, to keep the most important claimed pro-town power role alive, no matter what. It dosn't really matter if the scum kill someone else, so long as the cop lives another day and gets off another investigation. But that's not an option for a jailkeeper, by design; the jailkeeper can't protect the most valuable members of the town without crippling them.

The job of the JAILKEEPER is to TRY TO STOP THE SCUM KILL. Period. The best WAY to do that is usually to try to roleblock the scum. It's not that hard of a concept.

It's not a matter of "I want to keep person X alive because they're obviosuly town". If everyone thinks someone is obviously town, and they don't seem to be a power role, ok, but at the time, I seemed to be the only one who thought Ether was obviously town; even FES only went as far as "more people should trust Yos's read on Ether". Hell, I wouldn't have spent so much time defending Ether if it wasn't for the fact that several other people were attacking her.

Please, explain to me exactally how I should have known the scum would try to kill Ether. You keep acting like protecting Ether was obviously the best option, but you haven't even tried to explain why you think she was an obvious scum target at the end of day 1.

I bet you didn't even read my 1262 which is pretty damn good evidence for why FD is probably town.

I actually hadn't read that far yet; I responded to your obviously bogus 1250 as soon as I saw it.

Looking at your 1262:

This is exactly the reason why Final Destination is so damn town - he's not just locking onto reads and attack attack attacking - he's ALSO revising those reads when new evidence comes to light in people's favor.

He's not just locking onto people. What he's doing is much, much worse; he's consistently, without exception, attacking only the person or people who are the biggest threat to him at that moment. Fonzi already pointed that out, in fairly great detail, in a post you apparently completely ignored, just like you've consistently ignored all the cases made against Fate and all the problems with Fate's play.

The situation with FES is a prime example. Day 1, when I was the main threat to him, he was attacking me. Then, day 2, when I stopped voting for Fate but FES continued, Fate ignored me and only attacked FES. Now, after I voted Fate on day 3, and I became the main threat to him again, Fate suddenly ignores FES and starts voting for me again.

But the biggest scum tell on your part here is that you are being so damn inconsistant in your logic. I've quite clearly been completly changing my reads as new evidence comes to life, completly dropping the DaSpot wagon today after pushing it with everything I had yesterday based on new evidence, and you completly ignore that. You defend Fate on the grounds that Ether thought he was town and then was nightkilled, but you completly ignore the fact that Ether thought I was town

It's obvious that you're not scumhunting. All you've been doing is trying to come up with excuses to defend Fate and vote for me. Well, I hate to break it to you, but once Fate flips scum, you're next. And, frankly, even if you manage to somehow get me lynched today, when I flip town, you and Fate are going to be lynched tommorow anyway if the rest of the town has any sense at all.

You're scum, and you're probably going to lose this game, and by the way you've been becoming increasingly desperate and increasingly irrational in your attempts to get me mislynched as this day goes on, I think you know it.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

(Equinox)

Will you do me a favor, YosFlavouredCayke, and tell me where I can find posts where you've outlined strategies for playing the jailkeeper role?

Um...I don't know if I have discussed the stratagy around jailkeeper.

I invented up with the jailkeeper role in the open game "Near vanilla", which was a 13 player game with a jaileeper, a doctor (who would fail if he tried to protect the jailkeeper), 3 scum, and 8 vanillas. I probably did discuss jailkeeper a little bit in MD back when that first came out, but most likely only in the context of that game.

On a side note, Incog's defense of Fate in 1262 was seriously flawed. I already responded to him with this, but it dosn't look like Fate is actually "reconsidering based on new evidence"; it looks like he's constantly trying to lynch people who are threats to him for tactical reasons, and then inventing whatever theory enables him to do that. For example, his so called "turn around" on FES (the whole "white knight" thing) is really him inventing a completely new theory to justify him coming after me today, which just happened to be in direct response to me voting for him. Everything he's done looks more scum motivated then anything else. I really wish you wouldn't unvote Fate here; I don't see how we're going to manage a scum lynch today without you.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

@Yos: LOL MD THEORY LAND BUT STILL:

You have two choices:

A potentially roleblocked Ether (unless she's a vig who gives a fuck), thats ALIVE to scumhunt during the day

Or a dead Ether.

WHICH DO YOU CHOOSE?

"hurr durr how could I know ether would die at night?:

HOW COULD YOU KNOW WHO WOULD SUBMIT THE KILL?

YOU WOULDNT KNOW EITHER. BUT YOU COULD GUARANTEE A TOWNS SURVIVAL THROUGH THE FUCKING NIGHT.

There were 8 pro-town people going into night one. Even if I knew everyone's alignment for sure, trying to guess which one of them the scum were going to kill would be a fucking long shot. "You guatentee a town's survival through the night" is a horrible argument; 7 townies are going to survive the night no matter what, 8 if you're really lucky.

If you jailkeep a pro-town person night 1, you've got a 1/8 chance of stopping a kill, and probably about a 2/8 chance of fucking up a protown power role. If you jailkeep a scum person night 1, you've got a 1/3 chance of stopping a kill, and if you don't, you still might fuck up a scum power role. Which do you think is a better idea?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I have a good feeling about the way this is going.

Anyway.

FACT 1: Ether Balam or FD now must be lying scum. Their claims obviously contradict. We are now going to be lynching one or the other of them today, and if that one flips town, we lynch the other one.

FACT 2: Between the two of them, FD clearly has a lot more to gain from a fakeclaim. Heading towards a deadline, we were basically deadlocked between a wagon on me and a wagon on Fate. With Balam mostly confirming my claim, FD was almost certain to be lynched if he did nothing. Assuming Fate-scum, he would have to do something drastic at that point in order to not lose. If he could at least bring down a town power role before he goes, his scumteam would be in a much stronger position.

On the other hand, I don't see any reason for Balam to fakeclaim there. It's also consistant with the way he was demanding I claim or die on the spot, hestiated when I hinted I was a power role, and then dropped it completly when I claimed jailkeeper.

At this point, Fate-scum seems far more likely then Balam-scum. I don't understand what kind of crazy gambit Balam would have to be running for a fake-claim here to make sense. On the other hand, a desperate fakeclaim is just what I'd expect out of a cornered Fate; it's pretty much his trademark move.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I've discussed this with smargaret and the thing we're thinking is this: Final Destination wasn't really forced into claiming a PR at this point just because of Balam's claim.

Lol.

Balam's claim, if uncountered, meant I was not going to get lynched today. You will admit that, right?

If I was not going to be lynched today, there's a 95% chance that Fate was. He was in trouble anyway even before Balam claimed, his only hope of survival was to get me lynched instead of him since the odds of a third wagon coming up out of nowhere this close to deadline is quite low.

Fate knew this. He had to do something drastic, some kind of fakeclaim, or die.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Your point is moot at best, Balam, since he's not claiming to be vanilla. It does make sense for a cop to lie low.

I'm now pondering a conspiracy theory by which scum Balam claims to cause a Fate lynch, in the knowledge that after a Fate town flip, Balam will die himself, but Yos as town would be so closely tied to him that scum were pretty much nailed-on to win anyway.

That seems unnecessarily risky. Balam was already the swing voter; he was already likely to decide if I got lynched or if Fate got lynched himself even before he claimed. If he wanted me dead, he could have hammered me, and if he wanted Fate dead, he could have just left his vote there and kept Fate at lynch -1. For that matter, in your hypothetical situation (Balam scum, Fate town, Yos town), Balam-scum would probably have been able to lynch one of (Yos/Fate) today, and lynch the other tomorrow, pretty easily, without needing any kind of claim at all to do so.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

As Incog said, I believe FD over Balam. However, I think we should lynch YFC today - I don't see the reason for scumBalam to pull that for a townYFC, so I think they have the same alignment. It's better to get rid of a roleblocker than an unknown mafia power role here because then scum are forced to either kill FD (deciding tomorrow's lynch for us) or let him investigate (giving us another night's results should he flip town).

Let's be serious here. Do you really think that it's at all likely that if Balam and me were scum together, that Balam, who was under almost no suspicion, would fakeclaim out of the blue in order to try and save me, who's been under attack all game? Especially the idea that he would do so in such a dramatic way, leaving himself as confirmed scum if I die and flip anything other then bus driver, is pretty absurd. If he had any sense at all, in that situation, he would have just bussed me.

Your hydra really seems to be getting desperate in trying to find excuses to keep voting me.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Your point is moot at best, Balam, since he's not claiming to be vanilla. It does make sense for a cop to lie low.

I'm now pondering a conspiracy theory by which scum Balam claims to cause a Fate lynch, in the knowledge that after a Fate town flip, Balam will die himself, but Yos as town would be so closely tied to him that scum were pretty much nailed-on to win anyway.

That seems unnecessarily risky. Balam was already the swing voter; he was already likely to decide if I got lynched or if Fate got lynched himself even before he claimed. If he wanted me dead, he could have hammered me, and if he wanted Fate dead, he could have just left his vote there and kept Fate at lynch -1. For that matter, in your hypothetical situation (Balam scum, Fate town, Yos town), Balam-scum would probably have been able to lynch one of (Yos/Fate) today, and lynch the other tomorrow, pretty easily, without needing any kind of claim at all to do so.

If that's true, about Balam essentially holding the lynch in his hands, then why does he need to claim at all?

Fair question. I'm not sure he did need to claim; he probably could have gotten Fate lynched without doing so, if he wanted to. That being said, getting out the information that I was telling the truth about my claim, and doing it before the end of the day, probably seemed worth the risk at this point.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yes, I meant jailkeeper. I blame mastermind for getting those two mixed up in my head, lol.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Random thought: Once Fate is lynched and flips scum, you're a confirmed town info role and the obvious scum target, Balam. I wonder if I could prevent your nightkill by announcing, in thread, that I'm going to flip a coin; if it comes up heads, I target balam, if it comes up tails, I don't. Scum logically should not take a 50/50 chance on failing a kill, especially in the very tight position they'll be in tommorow.

I'm just brainstorming here, but since I'm claimed anyway, this seems like a good chance for some fun WIFOM mind games with the scum. Your thoughts, Balam?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

What's been "ridiculously scummy" about me?

You've been going to frankly absurd lengths to defend the all-but-confirmed scum Fate, and your attempts to try to lynch me instead have become increasingly improbable as the day has gone ony. You're entirely in your scum meta, and there are links between your player slot and Fate's slot that go all the way back to early on day 1. You made an attempt early in the day to obscure your motives, (the subtle way you kept trying to bring attention back to DaSpot instead of Fate is especially noteworthy), but as it's become increasingly clear that today is an all or nothing affair, you've decided to push all your chips to the middle of the table and bet it all on this hand, and try to lynch me. Honestly, if you were town, I don't think it would have even occurred to you that it was plausible that Yos-scum would have killed Ether-town on night one. You've consistently had a double standard involving me and Fate, where you claim that actions on the part of Fate prove he's town while ignoring the same actions on the part of me.

You probably should have bussed Fate early in the day, but to be honest, even by that point, it was already too late.

You've probably got that little grin on your face you always get when you're trapped scum, don't you.

Don't feel too bad. It's not really your fault that you got caught; the guys you replaced put you in a really bad position. You played as well as you could with the cards you were dealt.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

FD's claim came WAY too soon to be fake. immediately (or as soon as he saw the post), w/o his partner here AGM claimed cop.

Fate fakeclaims the way most people breathe.

The fact that he came up with the fakeclaim so quickly becomes obvious when you start poking at it, though. It doesn't really hold together. Fate is claiming that this was a breadcrumb of his unicorn investigation:

AGM is online, and has persuaded me to stop arguing with scum because I'm just "feeding the trolls" and giving them ammo and bullshit. If my TOWNREADS have any questions or need any persuation to vote Yos, then please feel free to ask. Here's some analysis to help you see what I see:

A Vote Count:

Final Destination (4) -

Greymarble,

YosCayke,

Unicorn,

Frog Ergo Sum

Pathetric (2)

- Beaver, Final Destination
DaSpotthatkillsu (1) - Balam,

Unicorn (1)

- Reckamonic
Mrs Flay (1) - Mrs Flay

This is the corner stone to my analysis of this game, because I know I am town and I know I was run up on bullshit D1.

But you notice what is missing? He dosn't have you in green, even though he claims he got a guilty on you.

Do you really think that a cop trying to breadcrumb his results would have several people in green as "confirmed town", but wouldn't do that for one of the two people he had an innocent on?

He's done these in other posts, too, and he's never had you in green.

He's lying about the breadcrumb.

IT TOOK YOU 2 DAYS TO COME UP WITH JAILKEEP AND BALAM TO BACK YOU. TWO DAYS. IT TOOK MINUTES FOR AGM TO CLAIM.

I waited 24 hours to claim, because I needed to get a response from Incognito first. I knew that once I claimed, all I'd get was mafia theory crap attacking my claim, and that wouldn't tell me what I needed to know. I needed to hear his justifaction for voting me first.

Until that point, I wasn't 100% sure if he was scum or not, and I needed to be. After that point, I was.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

(Equinox)

If we are lying, DaSpotthatkillsu, where is your vote?

{DaSpotthatkillsu, Final Destination, Profane Confusion}

Good game, town.

I'm not so sure about Spot. There was this weird thing Incognito's been doing all day, where I attack Fate, and he then questions me about why I'm attacking Fate and Spot. I got the vibe that Incog was trying to defend one town and one scum at the same time, to try to make the links a little less obvious. Plus, I don't know if Fate would declare one of his buddies town at at time like this.

It's nothing I would bet on, but...Spot could be town here.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

....

Both fes N1 and Yoscayke N2 got a did not visit.

Um, are you actually claiming you got a result night 2? Did you get a "no result" response, the same you would have gotten for being roleblocked by a jailkeeper?

It's bizzare, because I wouldn't have expected a counterclaim here; even if Spot did get me lynched, assuming he's scum with Beaver and Fate, they still all lose when I flip town. Makes me wonder if something else is going on here instead.

THERE. WAS. NO. TOWN. MOTIVE. IN. BLOCKING. US.

Did you somehow fail to notice I spent the whole day accusing you of being scum?

Anyway; you're now saying you were blocked last night? What are you claiming, exactally?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I just sent a question to the mod. Fate was kind enough to spill the beans and reveal that his scum team has a roleblocker, so I'm asking what would happen if I was roleblocked last night.

I really can't believe Spot is scum here. There's no advantage to the scum team in having their third member suicide now that Fate and PC have been caught. I don't think he could be that foolish. Something is going on here.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Or "no visit" = "no result".

Ask the mod. It's not hard.

I'm plenty of confident that you are a RB. WHY? I'm willing to believe that you DID use your actions on who you said you did... AND THAT IS WHAT I BELIEVE IS YOUR END ALL BE ALL SCUM CLAIM.

So, you're saying you believe that your role information is completely consistent with my claim?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

YOS? HAVING SECOND THOUGHTS???

WHAT
IS
THIS
FAGGOTRY????

PEDIT:

BALAM YOU ASSHOLE THAT WAS @ YOSCAYKE.

AT LEAST SHOW ME SOME INTELLIGENCE.

I don't even know what the hell you're talking about at this point.

Can we go back to the point where you were trying to explain your claim in some way that makes sense?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Anyway, just got a response from the mod; if I was targeted by a mafia roleblocker, my action would not have happened, so that's one possible explination for this whole mess.

In any case, the solution is still obvious; we lynch either Balam or Fate today, find out which one is scum and which one is town, and then kill the scum's buddies later. To me it seems obvious that the scum must be Fate here, but that's a little harder to prove.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

You may be able to swing the wagon onto us if you so strongly believe us to be scum, and the only way we can be scum is with YosFlavouredCayke. Our alignments are tied together here.

That's not completely true; YosCayke could still be town with you as scum.

What's really needed is for DaSpot to figure out what his claimed results really mean.

- Incog

If I could be town when balam is scum, but if balam is town I must be town, then why are you still voting for me?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yos....

are we scum or not?

right here and now.

I think there's a reasonable chance that you're town. I've thought so all day, DaSpot; that's why I haven't voted for you all day today, despite your behavior yesterday.

Daspot confirms that Yos blocks him. So Yos is DEFINITELY a scum RB of some kind.

Hahahaha. Man, I've got to say, even after you've been caught, you put on a good show.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Movig on: I believe that someone asked for the

supremely amazingly obviously there breadcrumb that YFC completely ignored

. Well... for those of you familiar with the big rock candy mountains. Double up, double up, oh yeah.

I know, I know, such a completely subtle and obscure inside breadcrumb that

nobody could possibly realize is a breadcrumb

. Almost as obscure as randomly coloring someone green in a VC and not coloring someone else while claiming it's a breadcrumb of having investigations on both of the people, amirite.

(looks at link)

Hey yos sing along with me if you know the song...

In the big rock candy mountains, the jails are made of tin, and you can walk right back out again as soon as you are in

In other news, spot's town, and that is painful for me to say. Like really painful. There's no sum motivation to protect us.

hahaha. holy crap, how the hell did I miss that.

Ok, Balam is 100% confirmed to be a rolecop. Case closed.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

.... soooooooooo "big rock candy mountain" means "I'M A ROLE COP."


???

He said "Yos sing along with me", and one of the lines of the song was "The jails are made of tin".

He was breadcrumbing that he knew I was a jailkeeper, obviously, and it was before I claimed. He must be telling the truth about being a rolecop.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I, personally, have never seen a scum Jailkeeper. I have heard of a scum Role Cop, however.

YosCayke, is there any reason you're choosing to assume that Balam is on the up and up from his results? Did you already answer this somewhere in this mess of the past few pages?

(nods) That is still possible here, in theory. That's why I kept saying "Balam is 100% confimed to be a rolecop", not that he was confirmed to be town.

In practice, I don't see that as a realistic possibility here. If you can come up with a plausible reason a scum rolecop would act like Balam has, (breadcrumb my role, then pressure me to claim, then back off rather then lynch me, then claim) I'd like to hear it. From my point of view, it dosn't make sense for hypo-Balam-scum-rolecop to act like this if Fate is town or if Fate is scum.

I feel like we can plan this lynch out a little better. There's been a bit too much spam and not quite enough rational discussion here. We have three supposed power roles, all, of course, claiming to be town aligned. A Tracker, Role Cop, and a Jailkeeper, right? Not implausible by any stretch of the imagination. I'm still having trouble understanding exactly what happened between DaSpot and YosCayke though. YosCayke locked up DaSpot during both previous nights? Otherwise, FES, will you confirm DaSpot's allegation?

No. Night 1, I blocked Beaver, night 2, I blocked DaSpot. Spot is claiming that night 1 he tracked FES, and night 2, he attempted to track me.

DaSpot said he targeted me night 2 and got a result that the mod has now confirmed is ambiguous, but is entirely consistent with the possibility that he was roleblocked last night (he got "no result" both times, which the mod has confirmed could either mean that his target didn't go anywhere or that Spot was roleblocked). That's not unusual, a lot of mods give trackers results that are ambiguous like that, there was just recently a MD thread on the subject. There is no contradiction between my claim and Spot's.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I'm ignoring all the claims of out of game conversations or whatever. I'm just going to assume that all of this is a last minute fate-scum bullshit diversionary manuever and ignore it. If there is anything to it, which I doubt, we'll deal with it after the game is over.

Anyway, DaSpot: When Fate flips scum, I'm guessing that the other two members of his scum team are PC and Copper. They seem the most likely. So, tell you what. Tonight, assuming Fate flips scum, I'm going to block PC, and you can track Copper. That should just about shut down the entire scum team.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Spot, if you could respond and say if you're going along with the plan or not before the day ends, that would be great.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

If Fate flips town (lol), then of course Spot won't listen to me. That goes without saying. All I'm asking Spot to do is to confirm that assuming Fate does flip scum, he will (or will not) go along with my plan and target Copper. His response is going to affect my nightchoice tonight, so it's pretty important. I was hoping to have a little more time to talk about it with him; I came up with the plan today at work, and I wasn't really expecting the day to already be over, but it dosen't really matter.

When Fate flips scum, then me and Spot have a chance to severly limit the scum's options tonight, but only if we work together; it'd be a waste if he tracks the same guy I roleblock.

Just in case I don't survive the night, let me give a quick list of my reads for the town to use tomorrow, all of which assume Fate is about to flip scum.

Fate flips scum, Balam is 100% confirmed town here, period.

FES and Fonzi are pretty damn close. There is no way in hell FES and Fate spend so much time and energy trying to lynch each other if they're scum together, and we probably wouldn't have managed to push the Fate lynch to the point where he had to fakeclaim if it hadn't been for Fonzi. They're both obvtown.

Mastermind is probably town. He did, at one point, defend Fate and say he was more likely to vote me then him, but there was that major town tell I mentioned today, plus Unicorns looked moderatly town for most of the game.

DeSpot is probably town. He did defend Fate for most of the game, but his claim today, and his behavior in general about the Fate wagon, seems so damn honest, I'd be surprised if he's scum.

PC is scum, period. Once Fate flips scum, quicklynch PC tommorow. Don't bother to wait for a claim, or try to get a defense, or anything. None of it matters, he's scum. If I get scumkilled tonight, I want to see you guys run up PC in the first 24 hours of day 4. That would be awesome.

Copper is likely scum, by process of elimination. Plus, during the key period towards the end of the day he seemed to be working for the interests of Fate and PC.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Our agenda for Today:

1) Mass claim
2) Learn what our so-called "power roles" did
3) Lynch YosCayke

Lol. You do realize that I'm still a pretty much confirmed town power role at this point, right? Fate's douchebaggery fake claim dosn't change that at all; if anything, the fact that he was vanilla just further confirms Balam's role claim, if not his alignment. Only way I could be scum is if you actually believe there could be a scum jailkeeper, or if you actually think Balam is a mafia roleclop who is scum with me and we planned out that stupid clusterfuck yesterday way in advance, with Balam's breadcrumbs and all. You tell me which highly implausible theory you're trying to push here, and I'll tell you why it's obviously wrong.

Anyway, my first reaction when I saw Fate's alignmet was that one of my town reads must actually be scum, if there's 3 scum in the game.

No, that's a lie. My first reaction was a stream of expletives, pounding my fist against the wall, and yelling, quickly followed by a personal decision to never, ever play in a mafia game with Fate again under any circumstance. I can't believe anyone could possibly be that much of an idiot, to fake claim in order to put himself in a one on one situation WITH SOMEONE HE KNEW WAS TELLING THE TRUTH. That's beyond just idiocy, he must have known he was playing against his win condition and just not cared. Arrggghh.

Anyway, I walked away from the game, calmed down and didn't think about the game for about 24 hours, and when I stopped seeing red, I realized that one of of my town reads must be wrong if there are 3 scum. I had a town read on Spot, on Balam, on FES, on Fonzi, and on Mastermind, but one of them must actually be scum. What's worse, I said all my town reads in thread yesterday, because it never occurred to me that Fate might actually flip town, so that meant scum could send whichever one of the 3 of them was on my town list.

I still consider Balam to be basically confimed town. Fate's idiotic behavior doesn't change the fact that Balam is a confirmed rolecop, and I can't see a scum rolecop claiming in order to save a town jailkeeper and lynch a vanilla townie who was also a complete VI.

So, even if I was right and copper and PC are both scum, I realized that one of (FES, Fonzi, Mastermate, spot) must be scum with them, and I had to try to figure out which one was scum so I could roleblock them. Trying to play doctor was pointless; there were 3 claimed power roles, with Spot being the most obvious scum target, but I didn't want to block the tracker.

Out of the 4, I didn't think believe Spot was scum after the whole claim thing yesterday, and I didn't want to block him in any case. I really see how Fonzi could be scum, especally not with Copper; and I still felt like FES was town. Also, the end of the day post where Matermate seemed to be trying to get me to confirm in thread that I wasn't going to target Spot bugged me, and made me wonder if he wanted to make sure Spot wasn't going to be protected so he could get a clear shot at him. I did have a pro-town read on him all game, but I had to be wrong about one of the people I had a town read on all game. So, I took a shot and blocked mastermate.

Obviously, he didn't do the kill last night. So either I was wrong, and he's not the third scum, or the scum out-WIFOM'd me and sent one of the people I was attacking yesterday. Or, I donno, perhaps TWO of my town reads were wrong. Ugh.

I don't know. I think we're probably fucked this game, and I blame Fate for it.

I still think PC is scum here; it's inconceivable to me that Incog would just start off this day with a "lol let's lynch Yos" after my role was confirmed by Balam yesterday, and he's just not playing like town. He's just way too bloody happy to be a pro-town person in a 7 player lynch or lose; his whole "let's just lynch Yos" today, without even seeming to really care about claims or bothering to even mention reads on anyone else in the game, just feels like he's a scum trying to end the game.

Other then that, I'm not confident about anything at this point, not even my earlier town reads, since one of them must be wrong if there's a 3 man scum group. So, I don't know, scum group might be PC/Copper/Mastermate, or PC/Copper/FES, or perhaps even PC/FES/Matermate. I have trouble imagining how could FES could possibly be scum here, but I'm also running out of ideas. Balam claims to have been roleblocked last night, so out of the 3 scum, one of them must be a scum roleblocker. (And, of course, if there is a scum roleblocker, then that would explain why they wanted to block Balam). In order for us to win at this point, we have to vote perfectly from here on out, unless I manage to somehow stop 2 kills, which is pretty unlikely if there's a scum roleblocker (unless we lynch him today).

[YosFlavouredCayke]

You admit yourself that you weren't sure who was scum, yet you passed up the chance to protect the person who was nearly guaranteed to be killed?

There were 3 pro-town power roles who were in the open. Spot was the most likely target, of course, but not "nearly guarenteed to be killed".

In any case, I wasn't 100% sure of Spot's alignment. I thought he was town, but ONE OF MY TOWN READS WAS WRONG. If Spot had been alive today, but didn't have any kind of result because I had blocked him, then we wouldn't have anything to go on; if he was going to survive until today, then I would have wanted him to have a result.

---

Okay, there's something I'm confused about. YosFlavouredCayke, as jailkeeper, is the protective role, yet scum went ahead and blocked the role cop, as if they knew DaSpotthatkillsu was not going to be protected.

If the scum have a roleblocker, which they do if you're telling the truth, then you are the biggest threat to them. If I had stopped a kill, we'd still be in "mislynch and lose" today. On the other hand, if you targeted someone and got a "roleblocker" result, then you would KNOW that person is scum; no way there's a town jailkeeper and a town roleblocker.

They could just as easily as killed you and blocked Spot; I'm guessing the only reason the scum didn't kill you last night is that they didn't want to confirm me as probable town, they wanted to keep pretending a Yos-Balam scumgroup was a possibility to try to get me mislynched today.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

The Copper explanation made sense on the surface, but I see no reason for why the mod couldn't throw something like a scum JK in to the mix to make the set-up a bit less predictable especially if your claim is truthful and actually town-sided.

- Incog

So, the theory you're going with here is that the only pro-town power roles are tracker and rolecop, and that the mod specifically gave the scum a completly useless role (jailkeeper when there were no no-scum killing roles) just in order trick the rolecop?

You realize that makes no sense from a balance perspective, right?

This line also makes PC is scum, not that we really needed more proof at this point:

I can't believe you're even trying to pin a potential town loss on Fate's back; if you do manage to somehow be town here, I think it's pretty much YOUR fault that we've lost.

If PC was town, there's no way he'd be so sanguane about Fate's horrible cop fakeclaim, and so willing to let him off the hook for it. Especially not if he believes Balam is town, which he seems to; that means a town rolecop targeted a vanilla, said he was vanilla, and that person then...claimed cop, just to fuck with the town. Of course, as it is, he's increadibly happy about Fate's fakeclaim, since it let him get a mislynch yesterday and since all the confusion Fate created makes him think he's going to get me mislynched today.

PC, who do you think are the three scum here? Also, why have you been so close-lipped about any other possible suspects? You keep saying you think I'm scum, but if you were town, I'd expect you to be trying to figure out the whole scumgroup in this situation. Why aren't you?

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Point #2: Mafia Balam set up Mafia YosCayke's roleclaim in advance because they are scum together and planned it out.

- Don't make the mistake of thinking these guys don't have it in them to plan ahead. Breadcrumbing a fakeclaim in advance is par for the course, and I'd expect nothing less from Yos2.

So, let me get this streight. Your theory is this:

1. Balam breadcrumbed multiple times the I was a jailkeeper, breadcrumbs that no one picked up on (including me) but are obvious in retrospect.

2. Balam forced me to claim, threating to hammer me at lynch -1 if I didn't claim. Note that without the threat of Balam's vote, there would have been no need for me to claim at this point.

3. I refused to do so for 24 hours. At any point during this time, I could have been hammered without claiming at all, completly ruining this supposed "gambit".

4. 24 hours later, once I got a response from Incognito, I claimed jailkeeper.

5. Balam claimed roleclop, pointed out his breadcrumb, and claimed Fate was a vanilla townie (correctly).

6. He was so sure of that, that when Fate decided to pick up the idiot ball and claim cop, Balam's response was "WE ARE EITHER GOING TO LYNCH ME TODAY, OR LYNCH FATE" with zero hesitation.

And you really think that the most likely theory is that Balam and me set up an elaborate jailkeeper fake claim, which I then refused to give while staying at lynch -1 under threat of hammer for 24 hours, and then that Balam blindly guessed that Fate was a vanilla townie with no role knowlege, and was so sure of that he was willing and eager to set up a 1v1 lynch situation with Fate?

That's a more probably theory then, say, the theory that Balam is telling the truth?

Point #4: Even after we breadcrumbed a doctor role at the end of the day yesterday, YosCayke supposedly blocked us anyway.

- That pretty much seals them being scum at this point. Scum YosCayke would block us so they could kill DaSpot without problems, but town YosCayke would not have reason to target us.

...

That was supposed to be a doctor breadcrumb? How the hell does that make any sense? This comment:

YosFlavouredCayke, you are NOT to target DaSpot tonight. Balam, same thing. We trust DaSpot's claim more than either of your claims, since Copper has made valid points about the potential scum link between you two.

You ordered me to not protect Spot. Looked to me like you were trying to find out if I was going to target Spot, in order to figure out if you could kill him or not, and/or trying to stop me from targeting spot. That was one of the biggest scumtells I saw from your hydra yesterday.

Point #5: Balam only breadcrumbed YosCayke's roleclaim.

- I don't believe they are a rolecop at all, much less a town one. They claimed to have a result on FD, but didn't even breadcrumb it, even after taking all the trouble to breadcrumb YosCayke's.

Why would you breadcrumb a vanilla result? Now you're just being silly.

Come on, BalamCayke, I dare you to claim that our voting makes us scum because it risks giving the scum the win. Oldest excuse in the book.

Well, it does, in fact, demonstrate that you're scum, since if you were town the scum would be hammering me right now. It also looks like you and Incog planned to come into today lynching me.

Of course, the votes on Copper also prove that either Copper is scum, or that both Fonzi and FES are scum.

The scum list is getting narrower and narrower all the time.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Confirmed scum: Matermate, Copper.

98% likely scum: Incog.

Town: everyone else.

Damn, that was easy. I've never seen a town come back from a 4-3 endgame before, but hell, first time for everything, right?

You know, let's get this rolling.

Vote:Copper

Lynch -1, bitches. Now we just need the 4th townie, FES, on board, and we win.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Since it was obvious that you weren't actually a jailkeeper, that's not at all what I was doing.

The whole post of yours is BS, and obviously so, but this is especially silly. You thought it was "obvious I wasn't actually a jail-keeper" at the end of the day yesterday, and yet you quick-hammered Fate, after he unclaimed cop but before the rest of the town had a chance to comment on his new claim?

Your behavior at the end of the Fate wagon MIGHT have made sense if you thought I was town and he was scum at the time. If you thought my roleclaim was "obviously false", though, then your hammer makes no sense at all.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

By the way, if Matermate is claiming roleblocked doctor, then that means we've got two people claiming roleblocked last night, which actually confirms me as town unless either Mastermate or Balam is lying. If two people were roleblocked last night, then one of the people doing the blocking would have to be town.

Of course, Matermate *IS* pretty clearly lying, so that dosn't really help that much. Still, if there was any doubt in any pro-town people's minds about who the scum is, that should about seal it. If Matermate were telling the truth about being a doc, then he would have know, for a FACT, that I am confirmed town UNLESS Balam is scum. So it would have made no sense for him to vote me, under ANY circumstances, before voting Balam.

The fact that he did, and in fact, did so right off the bat without hesitation, proves one thing. He is not town. In fact, it's pretty clear that he, and his scum team, were already planning to try to lynch me today.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Yesterday, Mastermate voted me.

After he voted me, everyone else in the game posted.

I was not quicklynched.

That means that either he is scum, or I am scum. Period. There is no other possibility.

Vote:Matermate

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Oh, and last night, I targeted Mastermate. Not that it matters who I target at this point, since I assume that the scum blocked me and killed Balam, which is pretty much what I expected them to do.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

They're both scum, but Matermate is probably the scum RB; if he wasn't, he probably would have made the kill the night before last. We lynch him, then I can block PC and the scum can't kill anymore.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Ok. First of all, Fate, I can't believe you thought it was actually a good idea to fakeclaim cop because someone correctly claimed to be a rolecop with a vanilla result on you. I've come to the conclusion that you'd rather do some stupid gambit and lose then claim vanilla and win; this is the second game I played with you, both times you did a foolish and poorly thought out fakeclaim, and both times it went horribly wrong and could easily have cost the town the game. The only thing that stopped the town from losing was because your counterclaim was so weak. If you had convinced the town that you were telling the truth, they would have lynched Balam and then lynched you the next day, and that would have been the game.

Gah. MOS, I really thought you were town earlier, I acutally had you on my confimed town list, but then when you came out of nowhere and quickvoted me in lynch or lose for reasons that made zero sense, I decided you had to be scum. Why would you do that? You went from treating me as town to suddenly being willing to bet the whole game on me being scum, for zero reason, in a way that made no sense. The "He can't be a jailkeeper, Balam must be lying, so let's lynch Yos" argument was horrible; if the onyl way I could be scum is if Balam was lying, then lynching me instead of lynching Balam made zero sense. The only conclusion I could come to was that you were scum and were trying to get steal a sudden win.

I also dont' get Incog's behavior at all. Why did you suddenly stop calling me town and start attacking me? I was sure you could read me better then that as town. Did you really think that I would have killed Ether night zero?

Fate and DaSpot spending the whole bloody game tunneling on me for no reason, just SHOUTING AT ME IN ALL CAPS all bloody game, seriously made it hard for me to think screwed up my scumdar. Day 2, I came to the conclusion Fate might be town and dropped the wagon, but then he just kept acting scummy; day 3, when I decided my other suspect, Spot, was probably town, I went back to Fate basically because I didn't have any other ideas about what to do. It was more a test balloon then anything else that point, but he responded with such a scummy looking OMGUS, I assumed I had hit scum. I actually wasn't tunneling on you, Fate; I dropped the attacks against you for basically a full day. It didn't help that I never actually was able to find out the alignment of any of my suspects basically all game.

(sigh) My play was not good this game. Almost all my reads were terrible. When I was attacking Beaver day 2, Spot defended him, I got into an argument with Spot, and we ended up forgetting about Beaver and voting each other. That was not good play, I shouldn't let myself get emotional like that, and I shouldn't have attacked Spot for defending Beaver until after I lynched Beaver.

By the way, for people wondering why I didn't protect Spot the night he died; I thought the town was screwed and I had to go for a longshot, so I was hoping that I would roleblock scum and that if I was really lucky Spot would track me the same night. That would confirm me, confrim Spot, and confirm a scum, for the entire town, and might have turned a lost game into a won game. It wasn't good odds, but it was the best plan I could come up with. Also, I was pretty sure if I had jailkept Spot, and thus roleblocked him, everyone would have just assumed I was the scum roleblocker and lynched me for it, and it would have sill been lynch or lose.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

GreyMarble easily wins town MVP, in our view. We find it funny that, after all of Yossarian's talk of scum simply NK'ing the person with the best reads, we more or less did exactly that (though town reads were our target, more than scum) and he didn't seem to read Greymarble's posts post mortem.

I did, actually. That was when I decided Spot was town after all, since Grey was defending him so hardcore and then died.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Fate: I actually thought US was probably town. My hydra partner, though, really thought he looked scummy, and I didn't want to undermine her.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

How did my fake clearing of Marble cost us the game Yosarian?

It locked you into a fakeclaim that outed you as scum to the other team which caused them to crosskill you.

AND it got the lynch of Marble who was obvtown.

And then town won.....

So, lol?

Meh. Town won that game only becacaue you got lucky crosskilles. Your fakeclaim in that game allowed me to "confirm" myself as a pro-town power role, and if it hadn't been for the crosskill, neither me nor my partner would have ever been lynched. Whereas, before your fakeclaim, I was in serious trouble; I might have forced through the marble mislynch, but if I did, I was sure to get lynched the next day, and once I was lynched my link to Darla would have been incredibly obvious. Your fakeclaim in that game really saved the scum team from getting caught for several days.