Newbie 1072 - Game Over!

[KingTwelveSixteen]

VOTE: gxw

Because

lemonade.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

@gxw: The ISO feature is at the bottom of the page under the "submit preview" thing. Click the "display posts by user" and select the user you want to ISO.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Uh, I mean click the drop-down near the display posts by user text and choose the guy you wanna ISO.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Wow, already declaring town and scum tells on the first page? Thats fast.

...
King; how do you feel about your RVS now?

I'm fine with it, attacking someone because they say you are being silly with voting everyone and then basically calling it OMGUS because the vote ended up on them seems very...attacky? Um, overly agressive, wanting to lynch quickly, too hostile. You know what I mean, right? I can't think of the word for it right now, but I'm pretty sure there is one...I guess I'll just say 'scummy' for now.
Oh, and gxw is making it out to be more of a deal than twisted did in the first place, which strikes me as odd.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
When did Mute's learn the sign for Vote?
...
Yesss, I am an avid shoe wearer. Sorry for the spoiler.
...

What?

...

Wow, already declaring town and scum tells on the first page? Thats fast.

Worried?

Nah, its just the fastest out of RVS that I've ever seen before.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
I WAS intrigued by the fact that he says he aimed to use it to reaction-fish though. I've never seen anyone do something like that as anything more than a joke, personally. Curious to know how others see that, because I've always treated RVS as a fluid phase that generally get ended by accident, and in general have never been fond of seeing it forced to an end artificially, particularly not at a point where very few others had checked in at all.
...

I see that as a bit scummy, forcing RVS to end by making a "trap" like that in order to attack the first person who questions it isn't very townie play. Townies would just wait for somebody to mess up all on their own from the pressure instead of trying to pull a bizzare gambit thingy to end RVS faster. Ending it faster with a "trap" would just mean that the only things that could be talked about early in the game would be the person/people who "fell" for the "trap" and the "trap" itself, thus stifling debate, thus scummy. It was a bit more scummy in this case since the people who talked about the voting didn't even make this huge deal out of it or anything scummy like that, but gxw acted like they did.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
@King: How would you prefer to create pressure on the mafia (not a random player), rather than a play designed to catch scum?

Well first off, I don't really think of those traps as containing any real evidence of the person falling for them being scum, since the only ones I've seen have been rather silly...null tells on them, to be precise.

But I would say a bunch of people vote for each other wily-nilly until somebodies like "why you votin' this guy" and the other guy gives an explanation and it all ends up snowballing from there into some real discussion, or something along those lines. If you do it that way everybody has a chance to say stuff about what is going on (and possibly incriminate themselves), and we can analyse their posts to move forward in the day from there, but if you just make a trap thing or something like that to end it quick nobody makes those posts, and there is much less to analyse at the start of the game. 'Cause like I said, all we really have available to talk about is the trap now, instead of various wagons and votes and ect.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
And it seems to me that he reacted badly to it, HoSing me, making a considerably substantial post about it, and calling it "very scummish".

That's why I voted for him
...
A lack of reactions to my post are results too.

He can't have both a lack of reaction and a bad reaction to it with substantial posting simultaneously.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
What does everyone else think, not only of Charlie/TS, but in general? Moar opinions please

Charlie's seeming contradictions that have been brought up make him look scummy, gonna wait for his response to see if I'll switch to him. gxw doesn't seem that scummy after he explained everything, so

Unvote

until I find someone else to vote for (probably Charlie.)

I'll cool off for a bit and let you guys catch up, but you guys seriously need to find other alternatives to my self because you're all tunneling right now, and once you've realised this mistake you'll be left with no alternate suspects.
So for the good of the town let's move onto alternatives

Telling people not to vote for you because they are all tunneling, not giving any alternatives, and a general "don't vote for me, just because" type thing make this post scummy.

FarmeriXi self-voted first post, though he did unvote in the same post, I have seen scum do that in a game and he got killed for it so apparently scum do that sometimes for some reason. He also acted all wierd and nonsensical, and has yet to post a serious type post with serious type reads, so I give neutral-scum read to him. So yeah, talk some more FarmeriXi.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
@King: Why did you not go ahead and vote for Charlie, you said you "probably" would. I don't understand why you didn't after giving your reasons for thinking Charlie is scum. Is it that you don't want to seem like scum for putting a late vote on Charlie?

Yes, this could be scum talk. Waiting to see if more votes go Charlie's way and yes it could be townie, bc you don't want to be the reason Charlie winds up at L-1 or lynch "if" the real scum vote him afterwards. Personally I find it as scummy, too so easily accept an explanation from GXW then jump on the Charlie wagon without adding any real thoughts of your own about the "contradictions". If you had just voted Charlie or not told your move it wouldn't have stood out so.

Vote: KingTwelveSixteen

Actually, both those reasons are incorrect. I didn't vote him because I recently got slammed in a different game where I voted based on someone else's argument, and then it turned out that the guy the argument was against had a bunch of reasons for everything and utterly destroyed the argument against him, and I had to remove my vote and put it back the very next post. Everyone said it was really scummy of me to just sheep somebody else's argument (it was) and I lost a bunch of credibility because of it. So I am waiting to see if Charlie has one of those counters or not so that doesn't happen again. If he doesn't I'm-a-gonna vote him immediatly (unless he gets knocked to L-1) after his post.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Er, by "put it back" I mean go back to voting the guy I was voting before I switched in the first place.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...

Charlie what was the purpose of that question? I can't see a town-motivation for asking how someone felt about their role.

A straightforward answer is that is one of many questions from a "standard" Random Questioning Stage (RQS) that I picked up and decided to use here. The responses has exceeded my expectations.

Um,

how?

...
Ghostlin's vote and reasons against me is noted, I have no comment on the matter at this time.

You know, he said this right before voting you "Explain the purpose of these questions, please. Let me give you some incentive to do so," so refusing to answer those questions like that, well, lets just say it doesn't look good for you.

...
I put my vote there on page 2 with confidence that I'll be able to take it off to prevent a premature lynch should TS be suddenly placed at L-1.

Premature lynch? Why would anyone, scum or not, hammer him at this time, and why are you worried about it? And

why,

if you do think it is a possibility, did you still vote him with "confidence"? Someone could easily be lynched at any time whilst you are away from the computer. There is no way you could be checking this game constantly every couple minutes of every hour of every day, which is what would be required to be

absolutely sure

that you could unvote in time.

...

Charlie's seeming contradictions that have been brought up make him look scummy, gonna wait for his response to see if I'll switch to him. gxw doesn't seem that scummy after he explained everything, so
Unvote
until I find someone else to vote for (probably Charlie.)

Your FoS on me is duly noted.

Not so much a FoS as it is a "I'm totally going to vote for you if you don't give a good explanation" (or are knocked to L-1). Incidentally, this seems like a good time to point out that

Charlie is at L-1, next vote on him lynches, so don't go voting wildly.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Well, uh. I'm just gonna vote and put him at L-1 like I originally said before I acted like an idiot.

Vote: Charlie

NOW

he is at L-1.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
More so, in his defense he stated he would not vote if Charlie is at L-1. His recent vote placed Charlie at L-1. Funny thing about that is that his post #72 he claimed then Charlie was at L-1 which Ghostlin corrected stating he was at L-2, then King's very next post was a vote for Charlie placing him at L-1.

Clearly scum. King will not be the reason Charlie is lynched at L-1 by placing a hammer, but King will put Charlie at L-1 making it an easy lynch for the mafia. King says,

Charlie is at L-1, next vote on him lynches, so don't go voting wildly.

but then his next move is to put Charlie at L-1. If so worried why vote? Charlie clearly has enough pressure on him at L-2 to withhold a L-1 vote for a little bit.

Lynching someone and putting someone at L-1 are two very different things. One of the two ends the day and kills the person, just as an example.

...
So far, as mentioned in my previous post, the only real question I have was directed toward KTS for his "probably vote Charlie" comment. That was very scummy to me and I know he has given his reasoning, but that doesn't take back the original comment.

So...what? Was my explanation lacking somehow? I thought I explained why I did that fairly well. Or are you just saying that it doesn't matter what defense I give its scummy no matter what? Even if I had a perfectly good reason for doing what I did?

I actually do not like this Charlie wagon, not to the point of someone being supposedly willing to hammer him certainly.

I have no idea what that hammering part is saying.

...
Also, KingTwelveSixteen... you talked about Charlie's "SEEMING contradictions" (your words) before you placed your vote, yet you've never expanded on this. What are Charlie's contradictions, in your own words please.

Well, in my own words, the contradictions would be him saying he plays very cautiously and then being very not-cautious shortly afterward. Shortly after that (shortly as in, immediatly after it in the very same post) he went back to being cautious again. Thus, contradicting himself.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
Also, I would argue he set out his vote on TS with a certain amount of caution. Using your vote on your lead suspect =/= scummy in and of itself, and given the nature of the wagon, and given the context of his interaction with me in the leadup to it, making it perfectly obvious and plain that it's going to L-2 at that point seemed like a fairly logical thing to do.

Would you say YOU were showing recklessness or caution by putting Charlie to L-1 and shouting loudly that it was, in fact, L-1? I see little difference in the scenarios, other than the vote count. Especially not since you've been also stating your caution about doing certain things because of your past game experience. Either he made one reckless move, in which case you've been as reckless, if not more so, or what you did wasn't all that reckless, and if yours wasn't, his CERTAINLY wasn't given that TS was further away from a lynch than Charlie is.
...

He voted soley due to gut, and

he

thought someone might try to hammer TS. That "He thought that" part is important. That seems fairly reckless if he believed it might happen. I however, do not think that will happen. It would be pretty stupid for anyone to purpousefully quicklynch day 1, in my opinion, so I loudly said he was at L-1 so nobody would accidentally kill him. Thus, from our own points of view, I was acting cautious(ish) and he was acting reckless.
I'm gonna quote him now:

...
Mmm, I don't agree with this and you've said things which you cannot prove, like "you're almost certain". Anyway, the whole post strikes me a bit odd.

Call it gut if you will, but I believe this is deserving of a vote.

VOTE: Twistedspoon

This is L-2. That's 2 more votes to lynch, so

be careful when placing new votes on him.

A premature lynch does not benefit anyone but Mafia.
...
@Forseti: Good to see you arrive,

why are you hesitant to place TS at L-2?

Do you believe he's Mafia?
...

...

@ Charlie: Do you realise that your entire case (if you can call it that) against TS is contained in those ~3 lines above? Nowhere else have you expressed any suspicion of him in this thread. I find it extremely odd that an IC who says

...

I'm the kind of player who'll much prefer a "wait and see" approach before forming an opinion.

It's a playstyle that some aren't comfortable with, but it works pretty okay for me.
...

...

Oh. That's a surprise. Let me clarify my position: I do play by "wait and see", by that I mean I usually wait until there is significant discussion going on first, then I comment. People have gotten suspicious of this before and way too often so I decided to say it first. Voting and scumhunting, on the other hand,

I do more often by gut

. Of course there is logic working behind it too, but

I find in LyLo situations

, based on my own preference, gut is the way to go. I put my vote there on page 2 with confidence that I'll be able to take it off to

prevent a premature lynch should TS be suddenly placed at L-1.

...

The essence of the vote was to take a stance, get discussion, but retractable if TS gets at L-1.

...

I just noticed the bolded part. Why did you bring up LyLo here Charlie?

...
Ghostlin:

I didn't think that his questions were set out with the purposeful intent of role-fishing when I first saw them

, if anything I think they were badly chosen reaction-bait. I can understand why it might be interpreted as they have been, and I could understand a couple of the votes on him a hell of a lot more if that was the platform those votes were standing on, but they aren't, and I don't interpret a lot of the other stated reasons for voting Charlie right now standing up under scrutiny.

I also don't see anything with pure role-fishing intentions being

done that blatantly.

*Raised eyebrow*
Also, which reasons specifically do you think don't stand up under scrutiny?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

NOTE: due to heading to a movie this post will use the draft I saved from earlier in the day. Just thought I'd mention that.
NOTE THE SECOND: Long post is

long.

...

I also don't see anything with pure role-fishing intentions being done that blatantly.

I don't care how blatantly it was. That is irrelevant.

Rolefishing is a very scummy thing to do, and Charlie has failed to justify this

That isn't irrelevent, when he says that it seems to blatant he is saying that it is, ah, what was the phrase? "Too scummy to be scum"? Something like that. Incidentally, "too scummy to be scum" seems like a scummy argument to me. The fact that you ignore at least two actual reasons to dislike Forseti's statement to bring up a fake one makes it seem like you are just making up reasons instead of scumhunting. Scummy.

...
Foresti does and he's using this argument to protect scum partner Charlie
It seems you're trying to defend Charlie a little too much here.
If Forseti and Charlie turn out to be the mafia, you guys owe me a medal
...

Case cracked:

scum are almost definitely Charlie and Forest
We can't lynch these two fast enough

Thats incredibly overconfident of you.

Either he made one reckless move, in which case you've been as reckless, if not more so, or what you did wasn't all that reckless, and if yours wasn't, his CERTAINLY wasn't given that TS was further away from a lynch than Charlie is.

So assuming, you're townie, then one possible townie has now a higher chance of being lynched than another possible townie. So what's the problem, unless you know that one isn't townie, and therfore a a scum buddy.

I have no idea what you are saying here at all, or how it relates to the point being quoted.

...
Personally, If Charlie is mafia then We're giving him a chance to wriggle free and lose out hottest lead. If he doesn't have the best defence than ever before in mafia we need to hammer him.
...
Foresti, your post was scummy up till now, but now it's hilariously scummy.

You vote Dazzy without even mentioning why. you seem to think 'Oh and also' explains your vote.
You're trying to get a counter-wagon going here to protect your scumbuddy charlie. This is obvious. Especially because you didn't give a reason.

Quite lynch-happy, arn't you?
He totally explained his vote and gave a reason. Major misrep there.

...
Reactions are gold, and that is what I was trying to achieve. It has exceeded my expectations because the reactions I got were strong ones; logical ones, and were all suspicion of myself. This is a trifecta!

You were trying to get people to think you are scummy? ...Why?

...

I just noticed the bolded part. Why did you bring up LyLo here Charlie?

Why not, I don't see any inconsistency in that statement.

That question had nothing to do with inconsistency, it had to do with you bringing up how you act in LyLo on day one when it seemingly had nothing to do with what was being discussed.

Interesting to note that Twistedspoon was the lead wagon and he does not hesitate to complete a counterwagon.

hahaha

At least I provided reasons (and good ones at that) unlike your friend foresti who randomly started a Dazzy counter-wagon to protect you. And then you did what is every townie's dream and both of you have now protected each other

Every townies dream? What? And Forseti DID provide reasons. Oh, you also didn't answer Charlie's point, instead you just said he was scummy.

whereas Forseti has not voted at all!

How irrelevant. But it confirms that you and Foresti are both mafia as you've both protected each other. You've rolefished and after dodging questions have tried to shrug it off.
Foesti protected charlie
Charlie protected foresti

How does that confirm them as scumbuddies? It just confirms them as defending each other, which town can do. Also, the quoted thing doesn't seem to have anything to do with protecting Forseti. At all. Misrep again.

...
Gxw (or another townie), If you want to hammer Charlie then go for it. He's trying to confuse you with his fancy IC talk. If he flips scum (which seems incredibly likely), then you're our hero.

FAR to lynch happy here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
tl;dr (Foresti Case)

Foresti is defending charlie too much, Approves of role-fishing, showed his scum alliance and trying to build an unjustified counter-wagon on Dazzy to protect Charlie.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Conclusion: Dazzy and Charlie are the scum 99% sure; case solved.
gg guys

In random order:
1. Forseti justified his vote on Dazzy.
2. 99% sure is far to much for day 1. Or pretty much any day actually.
3. Defending =/= scumbuddies.
4. When did he approve of role-fishing?
5. "showed his scum alliance" would only be accurate after one of them flipped scum.
6. Your case is entirely based on Charlie being scum, and we do not know for sure if he is.

strawmanning are we now?

pick the weakest part of my argument, attack that, and then ignore the rest.

strawmanning noted

Hypocrisy and not actually countering the point he made noted.

Claim, Charlie.
...

You gonna hammer him?

Wow, both Charlie and TS are at L-1, and personally I am much more in favor of a TS lynch right now. I would like both people to claim before I hammer.

Both?

Also, no mention of why you are changing from looking like you are gonna hammer Charlie to hammerin' TS. IGMEOY.

...
wrong

I quoted what, 4 quotes, from your argument.
Charlie quoted one weak point to attack and then ignored the rest.
Also this shows you're protecting him again; how delightful

You quoted out of context on his Dazzy case, and I'm not gonna look back and point out any other times you did it because this post is already too long.
Protecting =/= scumbuddies, no flip yet, ect.

and now you're setting up a better counter-wagon since you've seen your Dazzy one to be unjustifiable

He totally justified it. Seriously.

personally, I welcome my lynch. Then, when I flip town, you'll know I was right all along, and will go ahead and lynch you two. Then we (town) win.
The same cannot be said for you too being scum.

You can lynch me, but when I flip town, go for these two. Then I'll be a happy chap.

Noooooo. You being town doesn't make your argument correct and welcoming your own lynch isn't a very good way to win the game, as town or as scum. AtE, I believe.

Right… tell you what. If you ever find a wagon you don’t like build up too fast in a game your playing, keep your mouth shut about it and just let it happen.

Probably the worst piece of town advice I've ever read.
There are probably 100 things wrong with it
I don't even know where to start...
The town's best and only weapon is their voice, and you're trying to stop us even using that

That was so obviously a sarcastic counter about how you say its scummy that he defended Charlie. Big misrep again.

Wow, both Charlie and TS are at L-1, and personally I am much more in favor of a TS lynch right now. I would like both people to claim before I hammer.

Can i just say that if someone hammers me now, instead of Charlie, the I'll flip town

Then we'll know I'm town and that scum will probably be on my wagon.

And then we'll look at my wagon, see the mafia suspects Foresti and Charlie on it and then we'll have our mafia

simples

gxw has a town read in my book by the way. I don't want you to suspect him for being on my wagon if he hammers me. Go for foresti and Charlie instead.

Guh, everything about this is suspicious or wrong. AtE, defending somebody

hammering

you? You being town doesn't mean your arguments are correct.

before I go or you guys hammer me, remember that If I was mafia I wouldn't be posting this much. I'd prefer to lie low and be slightly more than a lurker, but not as active as I am now.

Sure you can counter this argument with WIFOM

, but Farmerxi knows how active I was in the last game and I wan't scum. Also, unlike scum, I'm not afraid of my lynch as then you'll see that all my suspicions were townie ones, not scum ones, when I flip town.
This is why the mafia always keep me alive. I'm active. Therefore I post a lot, therefore there are more chances for me to slip up.

anyaways, I claim Vanilla townie. no fancy roles.
If you choose to believe me or not, that's your choice. I can't force you to believe I'm town, and I won't blame any of you for hammering me.
It's your choice. never forget that the town's greatest weapon is their voice. Let it be heard.

~Twistedspoon

WIFOM.
Claiming meta as a defense isn't very effective, because you can easily change how you play if you are aware of your meta, which you obviously are.
AtE some more.

...
So, one of the reactions you were aiming to get was conversation rolling, and one method of doing that was to portray yourself of being suspicious; am I right? This is what I assume to be what your expectations were and if I'm incorrect please do correct me. It's a sound enough of a strategy I'd suppose, but I still don't entirely like it.
...

"Sound?" Thats a strange way to say suicidal.

... Let's avoid hammering anyone right now.
...

Agreed.

-----------------------------

Ok, I think thats everything. For now I'm gonna

Unvote
Double-FoS: TS
FoS: gxw

and this time I'm much more certain that the person I am most suspicious of and not voting because of wagon size is at L-1 instead of L-2. Probably.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

He totally justified it. Seriously.

no. He just randomly voted Dazzy.
There is no case against Dazzy.

What reasons are there that Dazzy is scum?

...

Vote: Dazzy

Wiith Charlie at L-2, he basically threw up a post (#60) that read to ME like he wanted to throw more weight at the pressure on Charlie (who at this time was L-2) without ACTUALLY voting or even referencing the possiblity of voting, not to mention the way he backed up part of it by referencing how the SE players saw things the way he did. They both voted for Charlie, Dazzy did not, mixing a little buddying in there along with trying to push a Charlie lynch along while maintaining the ability to say he didn't vote for the guy were he to flip town.
...

Hey look, a case against Dazzy, made by Forseti. Shocking.

Oh, and I'm giving king a town read, since if he was mafia he would probably would have hammered and rid us of a townie.

FYI, I am inches away from hammering you. And changing my read to town from null is a pretty scummy way to try and get me to not hammer.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

FYI, I am inches away from hammering you. And changing my read to town from null is a pretty scummy way to try and get me to not hammer.

no, it's that if you were scum you would have already hammered and been one less townie better off

I'm not trying to buddy; it's a fact that you would have hammered if mafia

How many times, exactly, has it been stated that it is bad for mafia to quicklynch out of LyLo so far? 'Cause I'm pretty sure it was somewhere between "plenty" and "a lot".
I do not believe your town read on me was caused by that, as a good reason for me as scum to not hammer you would be that I would be totally exposed as scum. You don't seem to consider this a possibility, even though it has been repeatedly stated by several different people to be the case,

including me

, and it is most assuredly not "fact" that mafia would hammer you.

alright, I missed the case on dazzy then; I was in a rush
I'm sorry

You also ignored people saying you missed the case at least 3 times, just from memory.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Here is the 3 places where you ignored people saying that Forseti had an argument, I actually expected more times then this but apparently only me and Forseti himself noticed.
And a 1

...

Foresti, your post was scummy up till now, but now it's hilariously scummy.

You vote Dazzy without even mentioning why. you seem to think 'Oh and also' explains your vote.
You're trying to get a counter-wagon going here to protect your scumbuddy charlie. This is obvious. Especially because you didn't give a reason.

Oh, never mind. I’ve figured it out now. YOU JUST DON’T READ POSTS. Apparently, you didn’t read mine, nor did you read Dazzy’s post WHERE HE REFERENCED THE REASONS FOR THE VOTE I PUT ON HIM.
...

Lets just refer to this one as "2"

...
He totally explained his vote and gave a reason. Major misrep there.
...
And Forseti DID provide reasons.
...
1. Forseti justified his vote on Dazzy.
...
You quoted out of context on his Dazzy case,
...
He totally justified it. Seriously.
...

Here be number 3

...
Funny how my justification for a Dazzy vote (which apparently doesn't exist) was noticed by Dazzy, quoted by him, argued again by me, and countered again by him, and noticed by multiple other people also.

And then 4 is the one where I directly quoted the case.

-------------

You also ignored people saying you missed the case at least 3 times, just from memory.

fine, like I say i was in a rush

If no-one's hammering or asking questions then what's the next step?

You should at least check to see if your accusation is correct when people say it isn't, especially since its been a while since Forseti first called you out on it in ALL CAPS. And, oh yeah? Rushing a lynch is scummy.

Who says I'm not gonna hammer you? I'm totally about to hammer you. Like, you have one more post to defend yourself before I hammer. The next step is likely for you to fail to defend yourself adequetly and then I hammer you.


Oh, and the reason I have switched from "I agree with no lynching immediatly" to "lynch TS" is because he ignored like 3/4 of my entire giant argument, then said that there was no Dazzy case to counter the other 1/4, which is a flat-out lie, and His explanations for "not looking back and checking" don't jive with me. If he was in a rush he wouldn't have had the time to continue arguing and whatnot for like 6 hours after the original statement of "I have a case on Dazzy" was made, and he wouldn't continue being "in a rush" whilst simultaneously posting regularly in the thread for so long. If he was in a rush he would have made one post and then been unable to make more.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

@KingTwelveSixteen

I think it would be prudent to give some of the guys that haven't posted in a while to post before hammering. Im okay TS going, however, I'd like to see some comment on all of this from the likes of Ghostlin, Farmerixi and gxw (who, let's face it, has only really posted in the last couple of days to talk about how he wants to hammer people).

...Ok, thats a really good point. I was only really thinking about how scummy TS was and if it warrented me hammering him, I didn't even consider letting him live to get info from the other guys who havn't said anything about him yet.

You get to live TS...for now.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...

King Twelvesixteen:

Who says I'm not gonna hammer you? I'm totally about to hammer you. Like, you have one more post to defend yourself before I hammer. The next step is likely for you to fail to defend yourself adequetly and then I hammer you.

I don't like this. We're trying to stop people from quickhammering, you accuse TS of being overzealous of it, and the next breath you say you're willing to do that, and it's mostly because he blew off your arguments. It reads contradictory, which reads scummy, because scum like quickhammers. They don't mind accusing others of what they could be responsible of with a 'well, he was going to do it!' You went from null leaning town to null leaning scum here.

Here's what'd I'd ask of you. Lay out your TS case, point by point. If you have ISO him, do it. Give us analysis of what you find scummy most versus someone of the other townsfolk.
...

I have a gigantic post just a little while back there with me saying what I think TS has done that is scummy. The only thing I didn't include in that huge post and the couple of posts that followed it that was scummy that I can think of would be this:

...
I'll cool off for a bit and let you guys catch up, but you guys seriously need to find other alternatives to my self because you're all tunneling right now, and once you've realised this mistake you'll be left with no alternate suspects.
So for the good of the town let's move onto alternatives

Wherin he says that everyone is tunneling him and they should consider alternatives, but doesn't give any counters for arguments or arguments explaining how people are tunneling him or any alternative people should consider.

Though the big thing that made me want to lynch him would be, yes, that he blew off my post that was like 3 pages worth of words and almost entirely against him like it wasn't even there, and instead he strawmaned onto just a part of my argument and "countered" it with an

out-right lie.

He also acted like nobody had asked him any direct questions when my post had a couple questions, both implied and direct. And then there was the thing with him saying I now have a town read from him for not lynching him immediatly.

I guess I shouldn't have been willing to lynch him so quickly without everyone commenting on it, but seriously that was so incredibly scummy.

...

...
Ghostlin:

I didn't think that his questions were set out with the purposeful intent of role-fishing when I first saw them

, if anything I think they were badly chosen reaction-bait. I can understand why it might be interpreted as they have been, and I could understand a couple of the votes on him a hell of a lot more if that was the platform those votes were standing on, but they aren't, and I don't interpret a lot of the other stated reasons for voting Charlie right now standing up under scrutiny.

I also don't see anything with pure role-fishing intentions being

done that blatantly.

*Raised eyebrow*
Also, which reasons specifically do you think don't stand up under scrutiny?

Hm, you know you never commented on that contradiction Forseti. It can't be blatant and yet unnoticable.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Ok, I just realised something. The reason I felt fine with lynching TS so quickly when I felt it was scummy for him to want to lynch Charlie so early was that I was thinking of quicklynches being scummy mainly because the person being lynched

couldn't defend themselves,

since they died so quickly, and because a general bit of "not enough stuff has happened in the day yet" sometimes, but there is another reason it is scummy that I didn't really think much about until Forseti pointed it out, that it is scummy because

nobody can comment on the lynch.

That is why I seemed to contradict myself, TS responded to my case with a horribly bad "defense," and there had been enough talking for me to get some good reads in, so at the time I didn't think it would be anti-town or anything to lynch him. Of course now that I know the other reason, and think of it as a good reason (which it is), I will be more careful with my lynches and blah blah moral of the story blah.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
Does that clear it up?

Yes, thank you.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
In the mean time, I will leave my vote on King as I have pointed out I feel a hint of scumminess there.

I gave counters for that stuff you know.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
In the mean time, I will leave my vote on King as I have pointed out I feel a hint of scumminess there.

I gave counters for that stuff you know.

Yes you did give counters, but I do not feel that explaination fully warrants in this game. With your explanation I would be hesitant in voting (esp on a wagon) at all early on in a game. Thus why I am watching how I vote atm. Again, idk exactly why you stood out to me as you did.

1. Uh, "explaination fully warrants in this game"? Warrants what?
2. Which explanation? The one in the post where I say I am about to vote or my explanation of that post?
3. Voting on wagons for pressure happens all the time early day 1.
4. So its just gut then.

...

...

Guh, quoting mistake makes this post really confusing. I can't tell if you added anything new in the middle or something...

Was it not obvious I was being silly? I was questioned a couple times, but is silliness that early in the game a point to us in calling someone scum? Seems like that was a statement to form reactions around me and lead to a possible wagon if I didn't pick up and post as often as you like. Why? maybe because if I don't post much, I wouldn't catch the wagon in time to defend from a lynching.

RL*More work calls in the ER, to be continued....*

a1. If you are talking about your first post, then yes it was obvious.
a2. I also had the self-voting as a reason, and I gave you a neutral-scum read.
a3. The more reactions people have about other people the better for town since they help with making cases so much, especially after someone flips.
a4. "I wouldn't catch the wagon in time to defend from a lynching"

...
I was thinking of quicklynches being scummy mainly because the person being lynched

couldn't defend themselves,

since they died so quickly
...

Also: see point against TS about scum not quicklynching.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Guh, my computer ate my post. Here is an approximation of the points I made in list format, listed in the order I think of them.
----------------------

1. Farmer claims to have overstated(lied) about my scumminess to see my reaction in order to cover his inconsistency.

2. I apparently reacted townie-like, as he hasn't made any solid accusations of scumminess past stuff about my vote on Charlie.

3. He apparently thinks I am scummy soley because I said I was going to vote "to quickly".

4. Several other people have been less cautious with their votes. Farmer has shown little-to-no suspicion to any of these players. Or any player other than me actually. In fact,

the only person FarmeriXi has expressed suspicion of in this entire game is me.

Tunnel, tunnel, tunnel.

5. My post warrants no more explanation in my opinion, I didn't vote immediatly because I didn't want to blindly sheep someone else's argument, when it could have been just a misunderstanding or a misrep or something.

6. Why would scum-me need to signal his partner about anything? I would have told this hypothetical partner not to quicklynch until LyLo in the QT scum get before the game instead of making myself vulnerable by stating it in-thread, and I'm pretty sure nobody removed themselves from the pressure on Charlie after my post anyway so the second reason I would send a signal is moot.

7. Farmer has a scum-read, but he is pushing

me instead

because of a minor issue with voting style, and letting the scummy person get off scot-free.

9. You can't "know" both mafia have been involved with anything yet.

10. Farmer has specifically not commented on the TS and Charlie wagons other than "I think they are town. I will give no reasons for this belief" for the entirety of the game.

11.

"If I make it through D1 lynch"

Yeah, last I checked I was kind of the only person pushing you and I wasn't even voting you. In fact nobody is voting you. Why would you think that you were going to be lynched today? Is there perhaps a

reason

we would want to lynch you today? Like say, that you are scum?

12. Farmer started pushing me when I made a post that included me saying I had a neutral-scum read on him. OMGUS.

13. The part about making it through the lynch also further delays Farmer needing to post actual content on anybody other than me.

Vote: FarmeriXi

8. Twistedspoon's continued defense to the arguments against him has been mostly AtE.

--------------
That part about not making it through the lynch I only noticed whilst writing this up, and is the main reason I voted instead of FoSing him like I originally did.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
and what's wrong with AtE if it keeps a townie alive? That's all that matters at the end of the day.
...

And how would we know if it is protecting a townie or a scum? Answer: We don't.

...
Regarding my earlier read on FarmeriXi: I think I'll withhold telling the reason why I find him suspicious for the time being. I may have found something interesting, but I'll have to make sure of something first (I'll have to look up some research material on game theory -- don't wait up for me).

Awaiting further responses, especially from gxw.

Why does it seem like nobody wants to share their reasons in this game?

And why does it seem like about 3 people arn't posting at all? And havn't since about 3 days ago? *cough* Oh yeah, it's 'cause they arn't.
FarmeriXi is gonna be number 4...

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
and what's wrong with AtE if it keeps a townie alive? That's all that matters at the end of the day.
...

And how would we know if it is protecting a townie or a scum? Answer: We don't.

lol, that's not one of my cleverest statements

but it's worth mentioning that scum know who

...Um...
...why?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
That isn't a voting style, that is a play style, and two times this game King has been on the wagon of those being pressured with multiple votes and both times I have seen a lot of play on the quotes of those players, but I haven't seen any real, original thoughts of King's personal thought.
...

...What? So

quoting

the people I am making cases against makes it so

nothing I say is original?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I officially extend my welcome to the two new players.

@Meransiel: Why not just not have your vote on anyone?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
By the way, you still keeping that vote on me?
...

Yes.

VOTE: Foresti

It seems we've hit a slight dead-end (or at least we did before our two new players)
I'm going to apply some pressure on Foresti with this vote

Any particular reason you chose Foresti?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
2. Right now I think it's best to leave TS in the game. I think he really trying to be pro-town, even if he was being really silly about it.
UNVOTE: Twistedspoon
...

Mafia try to look pro-town as well, and they generally have to try harder at it.

...
It seems we've hit a slight dead-end (or at least we did before our two new players)
...

Waaait, we hadn't hit a dead-end until the two guys replaced out, since they were the ones being pushed. I was pushing farmer and Charlie was pushing gxw, it wasn't 'till they replaced out that we dead-ended.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

And it never came to you that only a townie would use a strategy as risky as tunneling on someone? (cause, you know, if that guy dies and is revealed townie, your chances to get lynched next day are high)
...

Tunneling isn't a strategy, it is the act of ignoring everything in the game but one person and pushing that person far more than you should, often for ridiculous reasons.

Oh, and Twistedspoon ignored me pointing out that what he said about dead-ending was untrue. He is also not scumhunting pretty much at all, and has admitted to doing (or rather, not doing) so.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

If you're so much into scumhunting, why are you focusing on me alone?

And it never came to you that only a townie would use a strategy as risky as tunneling on someone? (cause, you know, if that guy dies and is revealed townie, your chances to get lynched next day are high)
...

Tunneling isn't a strategy, it is the act of ignoring everything in the game but one person and pushing that person far more than you should, often for ridiculous reasons.

Oh, and Twistedspoon ignored me pointing out that what he said about dead-ending was untrue. He is also not scumhunting pretty much at all, and has admitted to doing (or rather, not doing) so.

Wheeeee.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Nah, it was just pointing out a mistake.

What mistake did you point out?

I mean, the way he put it sounds like he was accusing Ts of being lazy, not scum.

Even if thats how you really saw it then your post is still untrue, I'm not focusing entirely on you as I clearly spent some focus on calling TS scum/lazy. (It was the first one.)

...
It seems that we've decided that TS is town, though i have to say I'm not comfortable with that.
...
What are your thoughts everyone?
...

I never stopped thinking he was scummy. I just havn't voted him because of the whole hammering thing, and then like 2 pages later Charlie says he is newbtown and everyone else just accepts his AtE counter-arguments (and distinct lack of arguments on certain points) without any comment. Kinda annoying since the only reason I didn't hammer was to get other people's reactions to him...

Er, wait. I'm rereading and it is merely Charlie/Farmer who start saying TS is town, the other people just stopped talking entirely or replaced out (and then the replacements said not to kill him), and Ghostlin still made a couple more points. It is merely that TS never did respond to most of the points I made in my giant post, and has instead been saying really wierd and scummy things that for some reason I didn't respond to back when he made them. In fact, he's still making wierd posts.

when i say 100% sure I'm usually wrong, especially in LyLo
took me a while to remember that
...
well we've got discussion going now see. I'm good at getting discussion going, but at the expense of my townieness. It's a problem i have. I believe in newbie 1050 my first post was 'Who's the doctor then' That really got discussion going, but against me XP
anyways, it was a pressure vote at the time. That's the only way I could have been sure we didn't have a lurker. We probably don't, but still :/

gtg for today. Ciao

Like this: it reads as if he is making excuses for being scummy instead of explaining his behavior. "I get discussion going at the expense of looking like scum" is just an excuse for looking like scum and trying to make it out to be a good thing, even though it is clearly not.

It also

apparently

took him awile to remember that 100% reads are impossible, even though people pointed that out to him way earlier, according to this post he

apparently

didn't notice it. (similiar to how people who pointed out the case on Dazzy were ignored in favor of pushing a faulty case.)

He is also not scumhunting pretty much at all, and has admitted to doing (or rather, not doing) so.

it's not my fault the few scummy players replaced out

i can't go questioning famer and Gxw now can I?

I'll strike when the iron is hot, and that's not now =|

And this one is him saying that he can't scumhunt anymore because the people he thought were scummy replaced out, so he is waiting for somebody else to do all the work for him (and take the blame if the person being pushed turns out to be town.) It also ignores that the slots that he thought were scummy still have players in them, in fact I've been making arguments against Mer already, so he could easily continue pushing the slots he previously found scummy.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
Charlie - Obvscum.
...
I think the answer lies in me trying to post succinctly added with you thinking too much over a simple matter. In other words, you've spotted some small detail and you've made a mountain out of a molehill.

So you admit to being scum then?

Thats kind of a patronizing thing to say.

@ Ghostlin: Understood. Perhaps it would help to know that when I made that comment about those two replacing out, I thought of an early game I played in as SE Cop where both the IC and other SE were Mafia Goons. The chances of this configuration of all experienced players not being VT is slim; that's what I'm thinking about in this game too: the chances of both players who replaced out are Mafia is slim, but its possible. That's it.
...

This sounds like an excuse to me, I can't really see how you would be meaning that from your previous statement. It sounded to me - from the beginning - that you were just saying that your two biggest suspects replaced out and you were annoyed by it.

In light of new arguments, I can definitely see a base to Ts' guilt. He's still largely neutral to me though...

Not gonna answer my question then?

Dude, I did not comment on anything specifically. I am not suspicious towards anybody. I'm not attacking people. Then why did you say I'm trying too hard to appear pro-town?

So you arn't making comments on anything specific, nor are you scumhunting or even suspicious of anyone? Your right, that sounds nothing like somebody trying to appear pro-town, sounds more like somebody being incredibly anti-town.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I will make my comments on these occurances during day 2, as the day is now over.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
On an unrelated note, did you people notice how unnecessarily long the night was? Seems like a good indicative for voting for the player that posts the fewest. Refresh my memory, who was that?

...What does the night being long have to do with people who don't post much? For all you know, the night could have been delayed by a cop/docter and not the scum.

...

THIS IS L-1 DO NOT HAMMER UNLESS YOU ARE REALLY REALLY SURE.

We already got one claim out of him, and I do not think continued defenses will move this along any. We've got a decent amount of content for Day 1, town needs the information from the flip more, at least to eliminate the suspects and narrow the field. Plus he's on my lynch list for today, and

I'm pretty sure he's acting scummish.

Unvote; Vote: TS

Be pissed at me later, I feel this is best move for town then hopping off and on wagons right now, or try to do a last second lynch.

Nice job hammering

before several players even got a chance to comment on Meransiel's claim.

Oh yeah, and see that bold part up there? See that underlined part in your post? Nice job ignoring the town.

If anyone wants more reasons on why I just hammered there, I can write an article about it.

Gimmie that article.

...
1)

We put you at L-1 twice in one day.

Town seems convinced you're scum.

I am carrying out the will of town

, and you've never left my scum list once today that I can personally recall. We also got your claim eariler in the day, so we know you're not a PR. That's pretty safe to me.
...

At

least

let everyone comment on a claim before hammering the other wagon. I mean seriously. It is not the will of the town to be unable to comment on who we are going to hammer.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Bluh! Thats not the full post! Hold on.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I noticed that Ghostlin was setting up to get the (now debunked) claimed PR lynched tommorow (today)...But now that the fakeclaim has been revealed as a, well, fakeclaim, I am finding myself less suspicious of him...Oh yeah, and Ghostlin was the first to follow in the "There is definantly a roleblocker" thing that happened yesterday, which could be telling if a roleblocker pops up...

@Everyone: Uh, why does Mer saying there are two scum make him scum? This is a newbie game, it is guaranteed that there are two scum.

@Dazzy: Don't head into NK terrority yet, full of WIFOM. Also, how do you know Mer is the Doctor? He didn't claim as much as I read. That's suspicious you'd say so. Also, Mute's on the right track with his suspicions with Mer.
...

This is PR fishing, there is no way mafia would know any better if Mer's claim (which was false) is as a doctor or cop, (unless you are saying you think there is a Dazzy/Mer scumteam with Dazzy being an idiot and saying what his partners fakeclaim would be before he made it fully, which I find highly unlikely. (And that you did not mention at all)) but getting this out in the open DOES get Dazzy implicated as a possible cop for all to see.

@Mer: Full claim. Targets. Now.

Quite simple, really. First, no, I did not target anyone. Actually, I false claimed day 1 to limit the format a bit. Also, to protect the real power roles, if any. I'm Vanilla Townie.

Here's the deal: if I died, it means the mafia doesn't have a rolebloker. But I'm alive, so it's obvious they do.
Now, having that there exists a mafia rolebloker, there are 2 possible settings: no PR or 2 PR.

Charlie's posts look like those of a cop to me, and I guess he is so sure I'm scum he didn't even bother to investigate, so I won't ask.

Also,

Vote: Ghostlin

for hammering.

1. SO SUSPICIOUS. Lying about being a PR is severely scummy.
2. Nice job just making the "Dazzy could be cop" thing so blatantly in-your-face that nobody could miss it even if they tried. Such a townie move there.
3. Mafia could have let you live you try and get you mislynched even if they don't have a roleblocker, I've seen something similiar happen before.
4. Why are you saying that if he is Cop he didn't investigate you? I don't see any way a townie mindset would come up with this, the only way I see that being true is if you are scum, so you know he didn't investigate you because he isn't pushing you like everyone else.

That's not the point, really. Just, blast this site for not having an edit button.

The point IS, that your likeliness of being cop combined with the fact that there must be a doctor, which has been hardly represented, leads to this conclusion: no power roles, at all.

If you wanna lynch me, fine, but do note that if I die, you guys will enter lylo. This is not Appeal to Emotion, it's the goddamned truth .

Stop PR fishing! And that is still an AtE, regardless of whether or not you are town. (The site doesn't have an edit button because if it did people could edit away anything scummy they do.)

Oh my God. Meransiel, do you think that your softclaim actually helped the town?
Why are you so sure there is a RB? Why couldn't (if we accept you are not maf) the maf just decide to WIFOM anyway?
And by the even if it is the truth it's still AtE.

Charlie: I don't understand your cop/cat thing. But that just might because I'm tired.

Of course I'm sure. And no, no sane mafia would risk keeping me alive. Case in point, there is a roleblocker.
Also, you saying that sounds like you're accusing me of playing poorly, basically, as a townie. So, pretty much "I'm lynching you because you bring no benefit to the town." Question, and a lylo does?

tclawren isn't voting you.
We don't know if there is a roleblocker for sure yet, as tclawren says right there.
AtEEEeeee

...
2)

The point IS, that your likeliness of being cop combined with the fact that there must be a doctor, which has been hardly represented, leads to this conclusion: no power roles, at all.

Nice rolefishing. You do realize there are two setups where there is either 1) a cop, or 2) a doctor, without the existance of the other.
3) You voted me because I hammered? Is there anything particularly scummy you find buy my hammer, or do you find hammering scummy?
...

2. Pot, meet kettle.
3. You hammered before like, 3 of the town had even commented on the claim, (including me ) right after somebody said "Be really sure before hammering," and you were only "pretty sure he's done scummy stuff."

@ King: Why didn't you comment on this during twilight?

...At the time I was pretty sure that Ghostlin was scum and I didn't want to be NKed by him and be unable to push him, and if he isn't scum then I would probobly have been NKed anyway, since the scum would want to throw some suspicion on Ghostlin. And I couldn't really see how my post would make any potential doctor any more likely to target me.

So yeah, I didn't want to die.

Though the thing that I thought most scummy about Ghostlin - assuming there was a roleblocker before any evidence of such was there - as I realised over the night, several other players seemed to do it as well (including the dead townie TS) so it is obviously a mistake that town could make as well as scum, without it needing to be a scumslip from a scum that already knows

for sure

that there is roleblocker.

King: The article comprises of #277, 278, and 280. You can read them if you'd like. I don't have much more to say about the matter. I thought the entire day TS was scum, so I hammered him instead of continuing to debate the same points over and over. The Mer issue didn't seem like it was going to resolve itself until today, which is what we're talking about.

I am sorry that TS flipped town, but frankly, if you're wanting much more remorse out of me for hammering...sorry, no. Someone had to at some point. Town was going nowhere and we were circling the wagons, unless you wanted to lynch the supposed PR Day 1 and deny whatever information we might of gotten from Mer's flip? (He didn't. That's pretty convincing. Now when he's confronted with it, he says he was faking it to draw the NK/RB. That sounds like a scum that doesn't want to commit to a gambit to me.) There was less time and more information when I did it on Page 12, then you threatened to do on Page 6 or 7.

I did want to see what would happen in that gamestate, and I don't think it was a waste. We have a scum claiming PR and going 'wait, I didn't mean to say it was a PR.'

Plus, I'm not convinced you're committed to this accusation and are just trying to pull suspicion off of Mer. Where's your vote?

You did notice the post after that which said that I had posted that early accidentally, correct? And that my post was not complete yet?
Post 278 says nothing other than "I can give you an article if you ask for one," which is both not a part of said article and means that the previous post was not part of it as well.
You should have at least not hammered before everyone got a chance to say something about Mer's claim.
You act like kind of a jerk this post. Implying that I didn't read your posts the first time, and saying you arn't sorry that you hammered a townie.

Gotta go do something now, so just:

@Mod: votecount

to see how close Mer is to death right now.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
King: You assumed you'd be alive for D2. Why is that? It's pointless trying to figure out why it was Forseti that was NK'ed, but it's not all that pro-town to keep info for yourself in twilight saying you've got something you'd like to say. So what would you have done if you were killed by scum?

...I would have been dead.
You can't do anything after you die.

And it was more "I don't want to say something that will make me die tonight" then it was "I'm not going to die tonight."

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
@Mod: Vote count when you have a moment? Also I know it's only been a day since he's posted but if you get back after he's hit the 2 day period can we get a prod from him and one for King as well? But on my count Mer's at L-1. I'll give Dazzy/King til tomorrow morning (EST morning) /whenever I wake up and check on the thread then, but I've got a play to attend tonight so I won't be back til around 2300.

Hey now, just because I stayed up way to late last night doing stupid stuff and forgot to check mafiascum.net until hours after I woke up is no reason to prod quite yet.

...
King will probably get a second look if Mer flips town, but his attack against me almost seemed timed for when Mer picked up suspicion.
...

Wait, you think that I made an attack on you specifically to protect Mer, but you are only going to push me if he flips town?

What?

@Ghostlin/Mer: Could you maybe answer the accusations of role-fishing I made?
Also, nobody explained why Mer mentioning that there are two scum means that Mer is scum.

...

Nice job hammering before several players even got a chance to comment on Meransiel's claim. Oh yeah, and see that bold part up there? See that underlined part in your post? Nice job ignoring the town.

Well that's some new insight. Otherwise, its epic bussing.

Wait, did you just say that you think the scumteam is me/Ghostlin?

I am sorry that TS flipped town, but frankly, if you're wanting much more remorse out of me for hammering...sorry, no.

Regret is often false and scummy
No, actually, I have no idea. Let me think a bit on this.
Well, its obvious that tclawren and Ghostlin are not Mafia together at this point.

Why?

I like your complete omission of King. I'm lagging like a mofo on this browser (waay too many tabs open across three windows) so I'm not gonna bother looking back through the game ATM until after I clear out some tabs, so can you also give me/us your read on him from D1 too?
Also why are you going to dismiss your reads on those two players from D1 to build new reads on D2? I can only gather it's in an attempt to see if your reads sync, or some cal like that.

I like your sarcasm. No, no really! I find it quite surprising how some people on aren't able to detect sarcasm of my own; so I tend to get iffy.
Right, about KingTwelveSixteen.. as I recall he was a wildcard in my books. But,

after seeing his posts D2 I feel that he's protown.

After we lynch Meransiel and he (hopefully) flips Mafia, then I'll look more into the possibility of either you or KingTwelveSixteen is his partner.
...

Right up there you make a bizzare claim outta nowhere that I am bussing Ghostlin, and then you say that I am town. What?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...

...

Also, how do you know Mer is the Doctor?

He didn't claim as much as I read.

That's suspicious you'd say so.

...

...
My next post was a

simple question about information that no one would of known from the information in front of them.

...

Looks more like an accusation to me. Oh, and also?

The cop would think of the other claimed PR as the doctor.

That was, you know, the entire point of my accusation. That cop-Dazzy would think of a softclaimed PR as the doctor. Saying it is suspicious is also incorrect, as the

scum

are not aware of what roles the town has at their disposal, so no scum-hunting could come from it.

Hmph, Mer has been more scummy than you though. Fakeclaiming before death and then saying he is a VT, ugh...

Also you didn't answer my "What the heck are you talking about" question, you know, the one that asks why, if you think I am trying to protect Mer because we are scumbuddies, that you are only going to be looking into me if he turns out to be town.

Also, King.

The issue is that Mer claimed there were two

goons

, not simply scum. This is seen in his ISO 26, as pointed out in Mute's #310

Seemed like something quick I could clear up.

Oooooh. Yeah, that is really suspicious.


I just want to make it official here: I agree that Mer has to die, he has been far to scummy to let live. I have merely been apprehensive about it because my other big scum read is Ghostlin, and there is no way both of them are scum.

Eh, seems my death is inevitable then. Just...don't let Ghostlin fool you, guys. And, I wish you good luck at lylo!

You're giving up at L-2?

I take it back. That's not scummy at all. *sarcasm*

Mute said he would hammer if he got to L-1, so he was essentially at L-1 at that point. The only reason Mer hasn't been hammered yet is that the mod hasn't made an official vote-count that says "L-1" on it.

BLAH NINJAD

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
@King: You said (Im too lazy to quote) "Also, nobody explained why Mer mentioning that there are two scum means that Mer is scum."
He claimed there were two goons in the set-up. However he's also been going on about how there's a cop and doctor. IT's impossible for both to be true. If he isn't scum that fails at being scum he's a VI and is harmful in LYLO which we are now going to enter.
...

Well now, that part about cop+doctor impossibility makes it even more suspicious.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

*cough*

Ghostlin

Mafia Scum

AVATAR HERE

Joined :

March 22, 2008

Gender :

Male

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
1) Dazzy's not the cop though. He just admitted he wasn't the Cop. You presumed he was the Cop, when there's been nothing to support it. Secondly, if scum agreed to play off each other fakeclaim in their quicktopic, it could be they agreed that Mer should claim Doc and that was a scum slip. Hence the question. There'd be no reason for a comment like that to be made since the words

'keeping my hands clean' could mean anything: he needed a protect target the next day, he needed suspects for an investigation target...it means virtually nothing.

...

What? I'm not saying that he is the cop, he blatantly said he wasn't. I'm saying that what he said seemed like a cop tell, since what he said follows the mindset of a cop. Also, I already mentioned the possibility of the scum fakeclaiming thing, which if true would mean you were straight up accusing Dazzy of being on a scumteam with Mer. Except you didn't do that at all. Ever. You didn't even mention Dazzy at all, other than in the post you call him out on what appeared

at the time

to be a cop-tell. IN FACT: I just ISO and Ctrl-F'ed you, literally the only time you mention Dazzy in pages 2-3 other than the role-fishing thing, and right now, even in the previous posts responding to my argument against you, is to say he needs to post more.


I shall make my argument against you abundantly clear. Day 1 you mention several times (3 I believe) that you think Dazzy is town.
Dazzy posted something that looked to me like a cop-tell, but could have possibly, though it is in my opinion unlikely, been a scum-slip of a Dazzy from a Mer/Dazzy scumteam.
You say this is suspicious, and give no reason why. You never mention this possible scumteam, any scummy connections between them, or anything else about this at all, not even in the accusing post,

until after I start accusing you and I have already pointed out this unlikely possibility.

In fact you specifically said in that post "Also, how do you know Mer is the Doctor?", meaning that at that time you did not think it was a fakeclaim made by Mer with Dazzy as his partner, as you were not suspicious of it

at all.

You are also seemingly misreping and not responding to full arguments unless forced to right now.
@underlined: That had not been mentioned at the original point of role-fishing, using it as an argument against you being rolefishing then is therefor faulty.


Oh, and guess what? The role-fishing was successful, now you know that Dazzy isn't a cop.

Eh, dead, then. Wonder if you'll manage...let me say a few things.

1. I stated about a dozen times there is a rb, NOT 2 goons.
2. I was not rolefishing. I was stating my whole, absolute opinion about the absence of PRs, because I DON'T think there are any.
3. Ghostlin is so obvscum it hurts. I'm surprised you can't see it. She is constantly sporting the 'it is always good to lynch' and 'no matter if we lynch a townie, it would still benefit us' concepts like there's no tomorrow, because she KNOWS townies will die. Why? Simple, because she is not the one being lynched.

Meh, not that you people would listen or anything...

Your last point makes me lol. Here's some mafia wisdom for you:

It is always good to lynch during days in this game. There is absolutely ONE time you No Lynch, and that's MyLo. At no time you should never NOT vote for the scum candidate and town should take it to lynch, even if it's not a candidate you don't agree on.

The maximum benefit of a lynch is information. Information should be and can be analyzed, remarked on and wagons should be remarked on. You do NOT lose the game for your faction if you are dead, even if you're a power role. (Only exceptions to that is not present in a newbie game.) The game is still anyone's up to and including Lylo. Until that last vote is cast, no one has lost the game yet. It is infinitely better to lynch scum, but you should always lynch someone. Frankly, I feel you are scum, like I felt TS was scum during the last Twilight.

So yes,

I do laugh at your assertion that

wanting a lynch is scummy,

along with the fact you get no information from a townie lynch.

Neither of these are true, and in a good 90% of cases, town will always want to lynch.

Underlined is a lie. Mer never made that assertion. Also, Mer's main point appears to be that you are happy with the lynches because you are scum and you know that the people you are lynching are town, not that town should no-lynch or anything like that, which makes this whole post just a bunch of misrep. Which is really weird, since Mer has already been hammered...

You know what? This is probobly gonna bite me later on, but

I call that Mer's flip will say Vanilla Townie.

Ghostlin just seems far to scummy for Mer to be scum, and Mer still seems to be talking like he is town even after being hammered...

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
King: I asked him point blank how he would know Mer was the doctor because he used the word

protect

. Not

target

, not

investigate

. Are you trying to twist that into a pretzel for your own purposes, or are you ignoring the assertion that he used that word in reference to Mer when Mer didn't bring it up and we both know it?

There's such a thing as scum slips. I was applying pressure to see if he slipped.

I

NEVER

asked Dazzy his role, and he volunteered cop on his own. There were a million ways Dazzy could of answered the question without revealing role information, and he didn't reveal said information until three posts later

without my prompting.

In fact, wasn't it you that said "well, if Dazzy's the cop, he would automatically assume that the other role was the doctor." There's some veiled rolefishing for you.
...

Going 'Hey, how do you know that [piece of information not readily available to town]?' IS NOT ROLEFISHING.

That's essentially what I asked

, but you know, keep pounding that rhetoric there. It seems to work for you, scum.

Also, as for your second part of that:

there's more than one misrep done here. Mer's lied to the town. This makes him scummy. TS acted scummy.

With the information we had at the time, no, I've not been sad to be part of either wagon. I'm not certain that Mer's VT at this point, but you sure as hell are sure.

1. Except you only applied pressure at one point and didn't continue to push him, or express in suspicion of him, or even

mention

him after the original post, if you actually thought it was a scum-slip you would have, I don't know, actually showed signs of thinking that he was scum?

2. It is rolefishing if one of the only ways you could know the info is if you are the cop.

3. You did not ask, you accused. Odd that you said you were pushing him earlier in the post when in would make you seem less like scum, but at the other points in the post you try to make it sound less notable by saying you were just asking a question.

4. "It's ok for me to misrep because the person I am misrepping is scummy!" Yeah, that is essentially what you are saying here.


I nominate Ghostlin to go first.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

So, I was ISOing Ghostlin to see if I could figure out who his partner could be and I found some stuff.

...
About the RB: Three possibilites with anyone who softclaims a role: 1) They die. 2) They're RBed. 3) They're scum.
...

There is a fourth option, scum leave PR alive to try and mislynch him.

...
King will probably get a second look if Mer flips town, but his attack against me almost seemed timed for when Mer picked up suspicion.
...

Never explained why if he thought I was defending Mer with my attack on him he would only give me a second look if Mer turned up town.

...
Also, about information, I agree that if I flip scum, this will give you a lot of info and advantage. But if I flip town,

what info will you get, specifically?

And yes, I demand an answer. But only from you. Other people, please ignore the question.

...
If you flip town, and I'm not convinced of that still: we can analyze the wagons from Day 1 and Day 2, read over what's been said about both lynches, and the flip also gives out information that town can use.
...

What an unspecific response.

OK, Folks. Time for massclaim, we're in lylo, now's the time. Way I've always heard this done is we say who we find the scummiest, and majority has that person go first. They then choose someone to claim, and then someone else, so on and so forth.

The last two nights and lynches have sucked, let's hope we can sort this out.

I nominate King to go first.

What not analyzing the wagons from previous days.

Potential scum partners: Dazzy, Mute.

More likely to be Mute; I've had a town read on Dazzy for most of the game.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
1.

Misrep AGAIN

. Mer had all but fake claimed a PR at this point and said, 'I made it up.' You can't vote the most scummy person and someone you find mildly suspicious (or does something mildly suspicious) at the same time in this game.

2. Doesn't make any sense under a microscope. Yes, I am the Cop, but I don't get role information so I wouldn't know Mer was a doctor from Santa. I could infer it, but why would I when I could counterclaim him? If Dazzy had claimed Cop, I would of known he was lying. At no point did Dazzy claim cop, and admitted in twilight he wasn't. Mer hadn't claimed at this point, so we didn't know what PR he was, so why was Dazzy trying to claim for him?

Yes, I was hoping Mer was scum and picked the wrong role to claim.

In a 2 Goons setup, that is entirely possible.

3. I accused Dazzy of having information he didn't have, which he

admitted

to? This point is blatant tunneling at it's finest.

4. Let me ask you a yes or no question, since you seem to do better with those: You did or did not hint that Dazzy knowing Mer was the Doctor was because Dazzy was the Cop?

1. You can, however, mention that you are suspicious of them being scumpartners, or perhaps mention small, scummy things they have done whilst still voting for the person you find scummiest, instead of just deciding to completly ignore them.

2. How about,

under a microscope

you are assigning motivations and knowledge of you claiming cop to my post

WHEN YOU HADN'T CLAIMED YOU WERE THE COP YET.

Heck, you did the

same thing

earlier, trying to say that things that have happened since my post make my reasoning behind the post bad since I would

obviously

already know things that nobody has even mentioned yet! Nice job claiming cop by the way, scum. Thats pretty much the perfect excuse for your role-fishing as it is the only way it wouldn't be scummy.

3. This point of Ghostlin has nothing to do with my point. I said that you were claiming to be pushing him while at the same time phrasing it such that your accusation was as non-noteworthy as possible. Bending your own words around like that to try and make your motivations look as townie as possible instead of just stating which of the two was your actual motivation is scummy.

4. Once again has nothing to do with my point. I didn't "hint" at it, I flat out said it and used it to accuse you and Mer of rolefishing. On top of that it had already been blatantly pointed out by Mer before I first mentioned it. Also once again, you are justifying your own scummyness by saying that others are also scummy, instead of actually defending yourself.

I am VT, Mute claims next.

Vote: Ghostlin

Just because somebody claims a PR in LyLo doesn't make it true. This is one of those not-true cases.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Oh yeah, and Ghostlin? You still havn't tried to analyze the previous wagons like you said you would. Nor have you explained why you tried to weasel out of giving specific things that we would learn if Mer flipped town, which he did.

Lying is scummy. Weaseling out of answering questions is scummy.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

So, I was ISOing Ghostlin to see if I could figure out who his partner could be and I found some stuff.

...
About the RB: Three possibilites with anyone who softclaims a role: 1) They die. 2) They're RBed. 3) They're scum.
...

There is a fourth option, scum leave PR alive to try and mislynch him.

...
King will probably get a second look if Mer flips town, but his attack against me almost seemed timed for when Mer picked up suspicion.
...

Never explained why if he thought I was defending Mer with my attack on him he would only give me a second look if Mer turned up town.
...

Never explained these either actually. Claiming cop does not let you get out of explaining yourself.

I'm really hoping that the 50% chance you took for being CCed by claiming cop blows up in your face.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

MULTI-POST-ULTIMATE-COMBO-MATIC-MACHINE

...

Yes, I was hoping Mer was scum and picked the wrong role to claim.

In a

2 Goons setup,

that is entirely possible.
...

Two goons? Oh, I wonder how you know there isn't a roleblocker, hmm?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

MULTI-POST-ULTIMATE-COMBO-MATIC-MACHINE

...

Yes, I was hoping Mer was scum and picked the wrong role to claim.

In a

2 Goons setup,

that is entirely possible.
...

Two goons? Oh, I wonder how you know there isn't a roleblocker, hmm?

...
Now then
What makes you so sure that there is one? I can trust Ghost's claim as he's had a town read from me the entire game. Combine ghost's claim of you being guilty and this post just feels really smug to me. I know, that doesn't make sense, but how I read the posts in my head this sounded so smug and sarcastic.
My point in that is I can't help but wonder if this is a slip.

HoS: King1216

Prove to me you're town and I should dismiss Ghost's claim or eventually I'll change that to a vote.

Excuse me? That post was me saying that Ghostlin said that there were only goons when we have no evidence of such, and the only people who would know that would be the scum. I never said there was a roleblocker. I believe you said Mer was scummy for doing the same thing, have you so suddenly changed your mind now that it is Ghostlin that is doing so?

And then you say that unless I can prove that Ghostlin isn't the cop or that I am town you will vote me, even though it is impossible to do so, and you completly ignore the rest of my case on him. Defending your scumbuddy much?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

VCA is Vote Count Analysis I believe.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

King, answer me this. If I and Mer were so scummy you had to point out our blantant rolefishing (and I'll note again, since you're deaf to this, all I did was point to a fallacy (?) in Dazzy's reasoning that he said Mer was the Doctor) why didn't you vote at all Day 2? You tunnelled me for the entire day and didn't cast a single vote on anyone. You almost entirely attempted to keep your hands utterly clean of the Mer lynch while accusing me and not voting.

MULTI-POST-ULTIMATE-COMBO-MATIC-MACHINEGhostlin wrote:
...
Yes, I was hoping Mer was scum and picked the wrong role to claim. In a 2 Goons setup, that is entirely possible.
...
Two goons? Oh, I wonder how you know there isn't a roleblocker, hmm?

Because I didn't get Charlie's post yet, obvscum. If Charlie is telling the truth, and I believe he is

since unlike you, I have an innocent on him,

there is in fact a RB and he did draw Mer the first day.

As for the 2 Goons assertion, up until Charlie claimed, I didn't know there was a doctor in the setup, I was kinda guessing since I though Mer was scum at the time, he'd fakeclaim my role and I'd counterclaim. What I meant there, misrepping scumtard, is that if there's a setup with two Goons in it, there's a 50% chance that scum chooses a role that is not occupied by another player. (You even ADMIT THIS in #417, so you know EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.) If you weren't tunnelling so ferciously, you'd know that in your brain of yours or reading the first post that Vel made.

Bluntly, I have nothing to hide: you know as well as I do that you had

no reason for not voting

Day 2. Mer was already a scum suspect, if the vote count of Day 1 was to be believed, but you never went back to him. I imagine you were pissed because he claimed a PR and you couldn't get him to L-1 to claim which one we had, so you went to your next obvious suspect, me, making my hammer look scummy and selectively ignoring the reasons why I cast it in the first place. You also ignored the fact that you had threatened, the beginning of Day 1 to cast TS's hammer, and only stopped when I pointed out that looked horrensously scummy, with less reasons than I, so you're entire case on that hammer is scummy and moot. The rest of the posts you've made are so full of WIFOM and rhetoric we might choke on it.

Thing is, you could only get one vote, so you decided not to ride that wagon to keep your hands clean of the Mer mislynch. (Vc's, end of Day 1 and Day 2).

Should I quote your post where you were willing to lynch TS on Page 6 or 7?
...

1. Wrong. You didn't point it out as a fallacy, you accused Dazzy of being scummy and then procceded to ignore him as scummy (or anything at all actually) for the entire remainder of the day. I have said this before already, and you have ignored it.

2. I already gave reasons in Day 2 why I didn't vote. To wit: I wanted to know how close Mer was to being lynched before I voted (accidental hammers stink and I wanted to push you that day as well), and then I just didn't want to hammer him since I was busy accusing you. Oh yeah, and I pretty much only got two posts out before Mer got hammered on Day 2. That

might just

have had something to do with me not voting anyone.

3. OH BOY LOOK AT THIS TUNNELING ON GHOSTLIN:

...

@Mer: Full claim. Targets. Now.

Quite simple, really. First, no, I did not target anyone. Actually, I false claimed day 1 to limit the format a bit. Also, to protect the real power roles, if any. I'm Vanilla Townie.

Here's the deal: if I died, it means the mafia doesn't have a rolebloker. But I'm alive, so it's obvious they do.
Now, having that there exists a mafia rolebloker, there are 2 possible settings: no PR or 2 PR.

Charlie's posts look like those of a cop to me, and I guess he is so sure I'm scum he didn't even bother to investigate, so I won't ask.

Also,

Vote: Ghostlin

for hammering.

1. SO SUSPICIOUS. Lying about being a PR is severely scummy.
2. Nice job just making the "Dazzy could be cop" thing so blatantly in-your-face that nobody could miss it even if they tried. Such a townie move there.
3. Mafia could have let you live you try and get you mislynched even if they don't have a roleblocker, I've seen something similiar happen before.
4. Why are you saying that if he is Cop he didn't investigate you? I don't see any way a townie mindset would come up with this, the only way I see that being true is if you are scum, so you know he didn't investigate you because he isn't pushing you like everyone else.

That's not the point, really. Just, blast this site for not having an edit button.

The point IS, that your likeliness of being cop combined with the fact that there must be a doctor, which has been hardly represented, leads to this conclusion: no power roles, at all.

If you wanna lynch me, fine, but do note that if I die, you guys will enter lylo. This is not Appeal to Emotion, it's the goddamned truth .

Stop PR fishing! And that is still an AtE, regardless of whether or not you are town. (The site doesn't have an edit button because if it did people could edit away anything scummy they do.)

Oh my God. Meransiel, do you think that your softclaim actually helped the town?
Why are you so sure there is a RB? Why couldn't (if we accept you are not maf) the maf just decide to WIFOM anyway?
And by the even if it is the truth it's still AtE.

Charlie: I don't understand your cop/cat thing. But that just might because I'm tired.

Of course I'm sure. And no, no sane mafia would risk keeping me alive. Case in point, there is a roleblocker.
Also, you saying that sounds like you're accusing me of playing poorly, basically, as a townie. So, pretty much "I'm lynching you because you bring no benefit to the town." Question, and a lylo does?

tclawren isn't voting you.
We don't know if there is a roleblocker for sure yet, as tclawren says right there.
AtEEEeeee
...

I also said some stuff about Charlie as well.

4. Wait, I am suddenly confused. Are you saying you were using the "2 goons" thing as something from day 2/1 or are you saying it happened day 3? I'm not really sure which you are claiming.

5. Oh boy, pointing out loudly that you got an innocent on Charlie even though we all know you claimed as much and there was no reason to do so. Except for buddying up to a townie of course.

6. "What I meant there, misrepping scumtard" "If you weren't tunnelling so ferciously, you'd know that in your brain of yours or reading the first post that Vel made." That would hurt my feelings if you weren't scum. *sniff*
Oh, and FYI to all newbies: Now that Ghostlin and me are in a vote-off in LyLo one of us

has

to be scum or the scum would have quicklynched and won the game already.

Especially

since he claimed cop with a guilty on me. Me trying to push someone that

isn't

Ghostlin in this situation except as his partner would be utterly insane.


7. Hahaha, this paragraph (the fourth) is so incredibly wrong, it gets a list-within-a-list:

a) I totally had a reason for not voting day 2, not the least of which being that I didn't get the chance to post much due to my horrible sleeping/checking mafiascum.net patterns around that time.

b) You are stating this as if you have accused my not voting day-2 of being scummy in previous posts and I weaseled out of it. This is the first mention of such an accusation as far as I can remember.

c) And you have selectively ignored my big reason I called the hammer scummy - it stopped people from being able to comment on Mer's claim - this whole time in favor of saying that TS deserved to be hammered. Whether that is true or not is irrelevant to my accusation of that being a bad hammer as I

never

used that as even a

part

of my argument against your hammer. In fact the only thing I said on the subject was that you were to unconcerned when he flipped town. So much misrep here.

d)

When

exactly, did this bit about me being angry I couldn't get him to L-1 so I instead pushed you happen at? During day 2? Impossible, Mer had already revealed his fakeclaim by then. Day 1? Also impossible, you ended the day before I had a chance to push you.

e) HA!

You

stopped me from hammering TS? I could have

sworn

that it was Forseti who did so and that this is just a blatant lie you came up with in order to get townie points.

f) So why don't you point out which points of mine are just WIFOM and rhetoric? And why havn't you mentioned it before? I don't recall you ever doing so. Ctrl+F and his good buddy ISO agree with me almost completly. The only other place you accuse me of rhetoric involves you using it to once again refuse to say something about my actual Re:Dazzy-cop-fishing accusation.


8. The reason the vote-count analysis of day 1 says I was still on the Mer wagon is because you hammered early. I have already said earlier in this post why I didn't get on the Mer wagon early day 2 as well, I didn't want to hammer him yet do that I could push you more.

9. I have thought of Dazzy as obvtown since day 1.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Wow, that is a lot of misrep there.

Ok, finially giving the reason you dropped it, because you wanted to push Mer and I was attacking you, got it. Considering how long it took you to say that though...

Who am I hedging my bets on? The only scumteam that makes sense to me is the Ghostlin-Mute one and

maybe

Ghostlin-Dazzy but that one is very unlikely. I had thought I made it obvious already, what with me saying that exact thing earlier.

There were in fact other reasons besides "I didn't get much chance to post" that I listed. Specifically I gave two reasons. ONE FOR EACH POST I MADE THAT I DIDN'T VOTE.

Ah, so it was something scummy

I

did that made you think there were two goons then? Even though you say that it would have been suboptimal for me to do so and you have never brought it up before now?

Crazy misrep. Let me quote what I said: "5. Oh boy, pointing out loudly that you got an innocent on Charlie even though we all know you claimed as much and there was no reason to do so.

Except for buddying up to a townie of course.

"
What part of that makes it seem like I think Charlie is scum? Answer: None of it.

You realise that the only way that is WIFOM is if we are both scum right? And how stupid it is for you to counter my counter against your "tunneling" accusation with that?

I never said I wanted him to fullclaim. I did not suggest that at all. I said I wanted to comment on his claim before the day ended. Nothing in what I have ever said about that topic has ever had to do with him making a fullclaim. It only had to do with being completely unable to even comment on the softclaim.

I was pissed day 2 about us lynching Mer the day before? We lynched TS day 1.

I wasn't going to immediatly lynch Mer in order to push you Ghostlin. Oh, FYI? I would have still lynched Mer, people who fakeclaim like that are just to scummy and unpredictable to let live in LyLo, regardless of how scummy other players are being. I mentioned this day 2.


Yo Ghostlin you still havn't answered this question from way back when: During day 2 you said you suspected me of trying to defend Mer as his scumpartner, but then said that you would only push me if he turned up town. Why did you say this?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
1) WIFOM/Misrep. This post makes the assumption that scum always buddy each other in order to cloud the truth since I've pretty much for 90% of this game have had Mute in my town column. It convientently ignores the convential wisdom of bussing. Also, if I'm buddying Mute because he's my scumbuddy, why didn't I clear him instead of Charlie? While both Mute and Charlie can be town, if you use the correllary that I'm setting townies up by buddying them, then Dazzy must be my partner, right? So why, if your town, do you find it unlikely?

Let me distill the question down simplier: If I'm buddying Mute, and I'm buddying Charlie, how is Mutebuddy different than Charliebuddy?

Let me be blunt: Your premise is flawed, or you're leaving holes in it to adjust to whomever you else you might be able to railroad for being my buddy.

You know what, I'm tired of you dancing around my points. This right here is just lies. I did not misrep nor WIFOM, you said I was hedging my bets when I BLATANTLY had said earlier that I could only see two scum-teams and one was very unlikely. I asked what you were talking about when you said I was hedging my bets and now you are UTTERLY ignoring that in order to say that my choices for possible scumteams are bad. Strawman argument.

Oh, and Mutebuddy is different then Charliebuddy in that I have a neutral-town read on Charlie just by himself and a null read on Mute by himself, ON TOP OF THAT your posts buddying Charlie seem to me to be BUDDYING, and not distancing or any of whatever it is you are saying they are.
Oh, and I never said you were buddying Mute.

2) I know you're a scumtard, you know you're a scumtard trying to accuse me of being a scumtard. However, from a third party perspective, this is WIFOMsque. So advising the new players that is 100% true is misleading. Fact is, I suspect you already know that.

How nice, using teaching newbies as an excuse to strawman away the original argument instead of answering. To remind everyone here who doesn't want to look back through our argument for it: Ghostlin claimed I was

tunneling

him. Despite the fact that he claimed cop-with-a-guilty on me in LyLo so he is pretty much guaranteed scum. Seriously, that is ridiculous. Please note that this contradicts his current case against me of hedging my bets, which is as equally ridiculous as the tunneling case was.

3) Honestly, what would have you said that either wasn't already said in the thread: should we hang him, or let him go to Night? I didn't think letting scum get their hands on another claim (which usually happens as L-1) was wise, even if it was countered, and in this particular case, it would of been disasterous if Mer took his gambit all the way. Explain to me what ninja insight you would of had in the claim that wouldn't have been forcing the claim. Particularly since I was waiting for a more detailed claim (role, nightaction, blocked or not) or Mer's body.

I would have said that we shouldn't lynch the claimed PR yet, and then ALL OF THE TOWN would know my position on it and you would be unable to say I was "angry" that I couldn't get him to L-1 or SOMETHING like that anymore. IN SHORT: You deprived the town of information about how some people would react to Mer's claim and now you are using that lack of information to make a false accusation towards me which cannot be proved or shown one way or the other due to your hammer. That is what I have to say on the matter.

4) You didn't vote like it. You didn't even leave an FoS or HoS that I remember Day 2. (Just checked. You didn't.) You just sorta accused Charlie, Mer and I of being scum without DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT. Also, your other reasons kinda read 'well, I thought Mer was scum, but I thought you were scum, so I applied pressure to you.' Which, when you distill it down was passive-aggressive waffling without acutally taking a stand either way. You also had a backburner against Charlie, who you now claim is town.
...

I didn't accuse Charlie of being scum, I asked him what the heck he was talking about since his post made no sense. I thought you were scummy and Mer was scummy so I pushed you both, but I focused on you because nobody else was pushing you at all. I didn't leave a FoS or HoS, I merely asked the mod for a votecount to see if me voting Mer would lynch him, which anyone can go back and check,

thus heavily implying I would vote him if it didn't,

and then I specifically did not vote him because that would have lynched him. Not like it mattered the second time, I got ninja'd by Mute hammering.

Ghostlin wrote:
...
King will probably get a second look if Mer flips town, but his attack against me almost seemed timed for when Mer picked up suspicion.
...

If you're refering to this, this is acutally; I think you're scummy for attacking me when Mer picked up steam, however; I'm going to open up myself to the possibilty you're town. Reason why I investigated you, acutally. I thought you were scum, but hoping the investigation would flip town.

Unfortunately, it didn't match my expectations.

Why would me attacking you when Mer was being pushed be scummy? The only reason I can think of is that you thought we were scum-buddies and I was protecting him, which is patently ridiculous from the whole "I will be suspicious of you if he flips town" thing.

...
Since you go on and on and on about me fishing about the Cop, I'd thought I'd dredge this up. I acutally never mentioned Dazzy-cop in my inital accusation/question...you did, posts later. I was just trying to sift if it was a scumslip (Dazzy-Mer were going to claim Doctor for Mer backstage at the time and Mer ended up claiming VT because the opportunity was ruined) since there's no reason for him to know that. But nice try to make it seem like you weren't rolefishing: 'Well, if Dazzy's the Cop, he'd guess Mer was the Doctor...' (Translation: can I get both PRs to admit it, or find out what the other PR is through a soft or counter claim?)

Incorrect, I stopped the argument about the cop-claim thing last post with "Ok, finially giving the reason you dropped it, because you wanted to push Mer and I was attacking you, got it. Considering how long it took you to say that though..." towards your reasoning for not saying anything else about Dazzy being scummy, which was kind of the whole thing that made me think it was role-fishing in the first place.
I would like to point out to the observers in the audience that I have been making this point since day 2 and Ghostlin is only just now actually giving a straight answer. I wonder why he couldn't have just been honest and answered the accusation in the first place? (Its because he's scum and he needed time to come up with a reason why what he did wasn't scummy)

Also, as I have mentioned before now, I previously believed that Mer had pointed out the Dazzy-as-cop thing before me, and thus it was not damaging to the town to bring up him as a possible PR for a role-fishing accusation since it was already out there. I re-read and apparantly I read "Charlie" as "Dazzy" from one of Mer's posts, and nobody ever corrected me. That is why I was fine with saying it, and anybody who believes otherwise is perfectly welcome to go look back at the 3 or so posts where I mentioned that I thought Mer had brought it up before.

@Everyone who isn't Ghostlin:

Please note that Ghostlin has been ignoring, misrepping, strawmanning and just generally trying to avoid giving a straight answer to my points this whole argument. ALSO YOU GUYS NEED TO POST MORE. Just because me and Ghostlin are having a big argument doesn't mean you guys can't interject with your own questions/opinions on the issue.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

1) You still don't explain why Mute, someone I've called a town read since Day 1 is different than Charlie, someone I've just recently"buddied" up to.

Oh, and Mutebuddy is different then Charliebuddy in that I have a neutral-town read on Charlie just by himself and a null read on Mute by himself, ON TOP OF THAT your posts buddying Charlie seem to me to be BUDDYING, and not distancing or any of whatever it is you are saying they are.
Oh, and I never said you were buddying Mute.

No, you didn't actually say I was buddying Mute, you just used my protown tell for most of the game for Mute to accuse him as my scumbuddy. You've still not adequately explained why Charlie couldn't be buddies with me. Or Dazzy. In fact, you accept Charlie being town exactly at face value. You accept his innocence exactly without doubt, as if you know he's town without the investigation.

You dance around the specifics, keeping to the periphery as much as possible--you don't specifically say why Mute is a desirable option over Dazzy, or why you accept Charlie's claim 100% when you don't have an investigation or anything remotely resembling that. You just cite 'well, Mute's a null over Dazzy who's null to town.' WHY ARE YOU GETTING THOSE READINGS?

Oh, and where are these tells? I read your ISO. You've not posted a single scum list I could find. NOT ONE.

Nope, I never did post a scum-list. And I have felt Dazzy was pretty solidly town from the start, it is Charlie who is the null-town read.

And I think that Charlie scum-team with you is incorrect because of your buddying towards him, as I have mentioned several times already if you cared to read my posts. I also said that I thought Dazzy was town from the start as well, and that is why I think a Ghostlin-Dazzy scumteam is unlikely. In case you don't care to count, that leaves, by process-of-elimination, Mute, who I have had a crazy null read on this whole game, as the only possible scum-partner left.

Still using how you apparently "disagree" with my scum-team options to ignore answering the question. To repeat: How would my scum-team opinions being incorrect mean I am hedging my bets?

Especially

since this is LyLo and

if you are town like you claim,

the game would end with you being lynched, without us

ever

getting the chance to act on these scumbuddy accusations. This reads to me more you desperately trying to prevent your partner Mute from getting lynched tommorow if you fail to lynch me by attacking my scum-team reads.

2 and 3). You said you found Mersianel scummy and then focused on ME pretty exclusively because no one else was. That's what I meant by tunneling. You can't focus on someone and not focus on someone. And for all that focusing, you couldn't still vomit up a vote. It's not hard to post FoS. Or scum lists. In fact, when it was mentioned last Day by tclawren why you didn't accuse me at twilight when you posted your reasons, you posted the WIFOMY excuse that scum would of killed you if you had attacked me that twilight. AtE, specifically, AtF, and scummy AtF since I had no interaction with Foresti at all, and Tclawren didn't accuse me of anything.

Everything that could have been said about Mer's fakeclaim had already been said, and it was pretty clear he was going to die no matter what I did. It seemed like a complete waste of time to push him just to say the same thing that others had already said. Wait, I mean say the same thing that

I

had already said. Since I had already said my part about Mer being scummy in my first post that day. (I am counting my incorrectly posted post and the post saying that it was incorrectly posted as one post)

The voting thing has already been covered. And I would have been voting Mer, not you then. Like has already been covered. Repeatedly.

And I've already mentioned several times that Mer was far to ridiculously scummy and bad with that fakeclaim to let live through to LyLo, even if you were so much more scummy then him if you disregarded that claim.

I don't know what AtF means.

4) You brought up the Cop thing. You've been passive aggressively been role fishing and your

last few sentences are a complete retraction of what you've said previous about me fishing for Cop

after loading me with bear and trying to MISREP ME about it. Also, does anyone besides me find it slightly suspicious that Mer's been attributed with calling Dazzy the Cop and claiming himself as doctor when either of these aren't true (as in that's not what he said at all, irregardless of the flip)?

Your note at the end is AtE. I've answered your questions. There's one last question I want to answer, and then I'll relinquish the floor, but I'm trying to keep these posts bite size and easy to swallow.

It was not a redaction, to quote my original accusation of rolefishing:
"This is PR fishing, there is no way mafia would know any better if Mer's claim (which was false) is as a doctor or cop, (unless you are saying you think there is a Dazzy/Mer scumteam with Dazzy being an idiot and saying what his partners fakeclaim would be before he made it fully, which I find highly unlikely. (And that you did not mention at all)) but getting this out in the open DOES get Dazzy implicated as a possible cop for all to see."
Right from the start all you had to do was say why you didn't mention it at all and it wouldn't have been very suspicious. You did not do so until more than 6 posts worth of arguing later, which is

very

suspicious.

Two seperate people thinking that Mer said something he didn't doesn't seem that notable to me, unless you don't believe in coincidences or something.

You still havn't answered why my scum-buddy reads being incorrect (in your opinion ) has to do with me being...what was it? Spreading around my options or whatever. Also, you didn't actually mention why you hadn't said anything about Dazzy being scummy until way way way into the argument.
Theres two examples for ya.

...

You know what? This is probobly gonna bite me later on, but I call that

Mer's flip will say Vanilla Townie. Ghostlin just seems far to scummy for Mer to be scum,

and Mer still seems to be talking like he is town even after being hammered...

By accusing me, you get towncred in a Day Three 'I told you so.' By timing your accusation when you did, you could easily cite this, and go 'see, I told you Mer was town. Even when Ghostlin said he wasn't.' You could safely distance yourself from the wagon, keeping your hands clean, or go 'hey guys, Ghostlin quick lynched Dazzy on faulty reasons,' even though I was L-3 on that lynch and I believe Mute hammered.

Oh, and I fully expect you to say I misrepped that quote. Fact is, you called the flip, a lot safer thing to do as scum than town.

Yeah, I called the flip. After Mer had been hammered and was still posting as if he was a townie.
I also never said "I told you so" in regards to Mer. That would have been ridiculously hypocritical since I agreed that he had to die.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
King, instead of arguing back and forth, make a summary of your case on Ghostlin, in terms of the game as a whole.
...

Gotcha.
This is what I got as a case from re-reading the thread, starting at the page of the day-1 hammering.
---------------

1)Day 1 Ghostlin hammers TS before several players (including me) had a chance to comment on Mer's softclaim, thus denying the town potentially useful information. He was also only "pretty sure he's acting scummish" when two posts previous tclawren had stated that nobody should hammer unless they are sure TS needs to die.

Shortly after this he claims that he totally had good reasons for hammering him and scummy stuff TS had did, thus contradicting his pretty sure-ness, since that indecisicive hammering was scummy and he didn't want anybody to be able to call him on it.

1a)His quickhammer directly caused Forseti to be unable to give any comments on a large number of things day-1, as he died during the night after the day ended to soon.

1b)Day 3 Ghostlin makes the claim that I was mad that I didn't get to get the claimed PR to L-1 day 1 and that I was scummy and blah blah blah. If Ghostlin himself hadn't hammered early everyone would know that I wouldn't have attempted to push Mer to L-1 to get a fullclaim day 1, but due to his quickhammer there is no way of knowing for sure. Thus, not only practical evidence of how this hurt the town, but evidence of him using his own quickhammer to push others on things that cannot be proven.

2)During twilight of day-1 Ghostlin makes the claim that scum would never leave a claimed PR alive in this setup unless they had a roleblocker, which is false. He states this "fact" several more times over the course of the game, even though other people have stated several times that this is wrong, since the scum could let the claimed PR live in order to get a mislynch on him.

This is relevant because he has claimed cop and Charlie says he is the doctor, since Ghostlin is lying it is a two-goons-no-roleblocker set-up, and thus the scum had to have left Mer the claimed PR alive in order to attempt a mislynch on him, something Ghostlin has tried his hardest to get everyone to think impossible.

On day 3 he also made a scum-slip of saying that there are only goons on the scum-team and then tried to blow it off by saying that it was something scummy I did that made him think that was true, even though from his own arguments there would

have

to be a role-blocker, since Mer wasn't NKed after soft-claiming.
NOTE: Mute the scum-buddy backed him up on the "Scum would kill PR unless role-blocker" thing, at least until Ghostlin started getting heat for it and Mute jumped off.

2a)Mer was also somehow convinced of this "truth" of scum-night-killing-PR-ness-thing. Ghostlin then

pointed out

that there could be no role-blocker, in

direct contradiction

to his other posts on the matter.

3)Twilight day-1 Ghostlin starts laying the groundwork to lynch the claimed PR day 2, mostly using the incorrect NK speculation mentioned in point 2.

And then day-2 he continues laying groundwork for a lynch of the claimed PR up until Mer reveals it as a fakeclaim.

4)Day 2 the whole PR fishing thing happens. To wit: Ghostlin says that it is suspicious that Dazzy would say that Mer is the doctor, I say this is role-fishing because the cop would think of the claimed PR as the doctor and the only way it would be suspicious is with a Mer-Dazzy scumteam which Ghostlin never mentioned, Ghostlin proceeds to try and weasel his way out of answering the accusation by saying he was just asking Dazzy why he had information nobody would have, then he tries misrepping, then he tries to get out of it by saying that he thought it was suspicious due to Dazzy-Mer scumteam, even though I mentioned in the

very first post

I made on the rolefishing matter that the only way it wasn't role-fishing would be if he thought there was a Dazzy-Mer scumteam, but that he had never mentioned it.

NOTE: He also switched between saying he was just "asking a question" all downplayed like and saying that he was making an accusation during his attempts to avoid explaining his role-fishing, using whichever one would make him look most town at the time instead of just sticking to whichever was true. (Hint: Neither was true because he was role-fishing)

Thus, I call him out on it as he never mentioned it ever. He merely tries to weasel his way out of giving a reason some more until he FINIALLY gives a reason why he didn't push/show suspicion of a Mer/Dazzy scumteam, after like 5 pages and an entire day worth of him trying to avoid answering the question.
NOTE: The reason he

eventually

gave for not mentioning/pushing a Dazzy-Mer scumteam was that he wanted to focus on Mer and me instead of Dazzy.

5)Ghostlin has alternated between misrepping point 1 and just ignoring it entirely.

6)Day 2 Ghostlin mentions twice that it is suspicious that the timing of my case directly coincides with the push on Mer, then says he will only push if Mer turns up town. I call him out on this.

Ghostlin then proceeds to do the usual stuff he has done during this whole argument with me, ignore the accusation, repeat what happened instead of anwering, misrepping, ect.

He eventually mentions that the reason he said it was that he thought I was scum trying to get townie points for not pushing someone I knew would pop up town, which is false as I plainly said day-2 that Mer had to die. I also pushed him some.

7)Ghostlin misrepped and strawmanned (notice a pattern?) Mer's arguments against him during twilight, after Mer had been hammered.

This includes Mer's question/accusation of "specific things you learn if I flip town," something Ghostlin has still not given, though he

did

post a nearly incomprehensable wagon-analysis post (the thing he said they would be able to use to learn stuff if Mer was town),

eventually

, after a period of completly ignoring my reminders and the original accusation.

7a)Ghostlin has said that Mer was misrepping in order to excuse his own misrepping of Mer. Basically he said "Its ok for me to misrep him because he misrepped me!" Excusing bad behavior with more bad behavior is a faulty argument.

8)After (fake-)claiming cop he tries the laughable strategy of replying to one of my accusational posts towards him as if I already knew he was going to fakeclaim the cop, even though there was no way I could have known that.

8a)This post is also the one where he says I am "tunneling" when I pointed out his changing between "question asking" and "accusing" with regards to Dazzy-PR-fishing. He does not actually explain why this is tunneling or give an explanation for the thing I accuse him of, instead he just repeats (again) what everyone knows already happened.

8b)This post he ALSO does some strawmanning so ridiculous that I don't think it even qualifies as strawmanning anymore, changing the point-by-point of this:

there's more than one misrep done here. Mer's lied to the town. This makes him scummy. TS acted scummy.

"It's ok for me to misrep because the person I am misrepping is scummy!" Yeah, that is essentially what you are saying here.

To

this:

4. Let me ask you a yes or no question, since you seem to do better with those: You did or did not hint that Dazzy knowing Mer was the Doctor was because Dazzy was the Cop?

Which has literally nothing to do with the point being discussed.

9)Ghostlin accuses me of being scum for not voting for anyone day-2 when I thought of Mer and him as being scummy. I respond with the reasons of: Only got two posts 'cause day-2 was to short, the first post I wanted to know how close Mer was to death so I didn't accidentally quick-lynch him, and the second I wanted to push Ghostlin some more before the day ended so I didn't vote Mer yet.

Ghostlin proceeds to completly ignore the two reasons given for individual posts, and instead strawmans into saying that the first point is ridiculous as I clearly had two long posts day-2. I even point out later on that the first reason only counts to explain why I only had two chances to vote, and that the other two reasons are the actual reasons I didn't vote at those times.

Ghostlin ignored this and continued to push me.

10)Ghostlin said that he stopped me from hammering TS day-1. It was Forseti that did so. Blatant lie to get townie points.

11)Ghostlin buddied up to Charlie by pointlessly repeating that he got an innocent on him when it wasn't relevant and everybody already knew he had claimed that. He CRAZY misrepped/strawmaned me when I pointed this out by acting like I had said that Charlie's claim was false.

12)Ghostlin has claimed that I am "hedging my bets" about who his partner is, despite the fact that I had made a blatant and obvious mention of who I believed were possibilities for his partner already, way back at the start of the day. (Mute and Dazzy, but mostly Mute.) He then tried to strawman the argument onto just saying that my opinions on who could be his partner were bad and that meant I was hedging my bets, but it didn't take because not only is that stupid but I do in fact have reasons for thinking his scumbuddy is Mute.

13)Ghostlin tried to use explaining to the newbies that there was a possibility that both people voting for each other in LyLo could be scum in order to avoid giving an explaination on how his "tunneling" claim made any sense.

Even this "explaining to newbies" reason fails all on it's own though. I said that it was guarenteed that one of us had to be scum. Both of us being scum means one of us is scum.

-------------

Ok, I think that is everything. Took me forever to write this.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Look like Mute stands out from the rest. He was on most of the leading wagons.
Dazzy's on the other end of the spectrum, he seems to be not voting more than the rest.
KingTwelveSixteen's voting pattern is not scummy... he never participated in the lynching wagons. I don't believe Mafia would be THAT passive.
I believe both Mafia were on the TS lynching wagon @ 1.10.
Ditto the Meransiel wagon @ 2.1
These 2 lynching wagons carry the most information out of all the VCAs.
If I have to call it, I'd say we're in 2 goon 1 doc setup and the Mafia are Ghostlin & Mute. Both participated in both mislynches.
That's my 2 cents.
Thoughts?

Hooray! You agree with me.

And to respond to some of Ghostlin's more recent arguments:

1. I never said that Ghostlin giving a town read to Charlie was what I was talking about when I said he was buddying him, that is ridiculous. He is buddying him in other ways: Repeating unnecessarily (and at ackward times) that he got a "town" result on his Charlie "investigation", and this whole thing right here are examples of what I am talking about:

...
Charlie, if this flips RB, protect me tonight and I'll investigate either Mute or Dazzy. (I'll flip a coin.) I'll know for sure, because scum will have to kill one of us, they must. This'll lock the game. You ARE innocent. You are a confirmed innocent, so I can trust you. In fact, you're the only one in town I can trust 100% right now. Doesn't mean you're right, but I will NOT support a Charlie lynch AT ALL tonight, and you'll have to lynch me for the lose first.

Explaining to Charlie, the

IC

, what the correct and obvious course of action would be if I died and fliped roleblocker. (Hint to newbies: as doc protect the cop. I mean seriously why would

anyone

need that explained to them?) Then that "you are the only one I can trust" thing there? Wow.

Also pointlessly mentioning that he will not support a Charlie lynch, which should be obvious by how he, you know, said he got a town investigation on him. And how it is LyLo. It would be suicidal for a cop to help lynch somebody he has gotten a town investigation on (obligatory mention of insanity/redirector/godfather ect. ect. but this is a newbie game so those don't exist) in LyLo. Also nobody was pushing, being suspicious of, or mentioning that Charlie was suspicious at any way at the time of this post.

2. The point about me being too cautious of

being nightkilled

to be town can be easily seen through if you think about it a bit.

...

(Hint: scum generally don't have to worry about their own team NKing them.)

3. The cop who sees somebody else soft-claim a PR in a newbie game would assume that the guy who claimed is either a doc or scum, and generally will not instantly assume that the claimed PR is scum, since they could just as easily be doc.

4. And what exactly does that coincidense about people thinking Mer said stuff he didn't mean then? All you say is that some random thing means some other, unspecified thing.

5. Why would I need to "confirm" that my reads are in order of Dazzy, Charlie, Mute, Ghostlin? Anybody who read my posts could tell you that.

6. Point one on Ghostlins third-person type argument against me is him subtly justify scummy things he's done by pointing at scummy things other people have done. It is also a

complete lie

, Forseti merely asked me to let TS live longer so that other people could comment on what had happened, and then I agreed that other people should get the oppurtunity to comment on it. He did not accuse me of anything, nor did he say it was scummy of me to hammer TS (that came later, with Ghostlin's post on the matter). This is the

second

lie Ghostlin has told about what happened with my almost-hammer day 1, which is really making me wonder why that particular part of the game is so important as to lie about it repeatedly.

7. Ghostlin's claim that I was using the "to dumb to be scum" argument is false. As I have previously (and repeatedly) stated, I have had a town read on Charlie since day 1. That is why I found it highly unlikely that he was scum, not because of the part about him being an idiot scum. (though that did make me think of it as even less probable.)

8. What is wrong with using POE to find scum? There are only 3 possibilities for Ghostlin's scum-partner,

not

using POE in some way would be stupid.

Especially

since I have a town-type read on 2 of them.

9. Apparently not-voting for over 2(!!) whole posts is now an indication of being scum. Even when you give reasons behind why you didn't vote in those posts.

10. Apparently changing reads from what they were at the start of day-1 is scummy now as well. (Note: I had actually change my read to a nully-townish type read by the point where I defended Forseti's argument against Charlie. Just thought I'd mention that.)

11. Point 4 in his big argument thing is putting words into my mouth. I only started mentioning Mute-scum day-3 because I found him with POE. Before then he was null.

-------------

Actually, I just wasn't on any of the lynch wagons because it would have killed (or directly resulted in the death of, in the case of Mer) them and I didn't want to end the day yet at the times of not-voting. I totally would have been on both their wagons if I had switched to them earlier, when voting for them wouldn't so instantly end the day.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I shall now point out some stuff.

1) Yeah: you know, because I did that before I revealed the investigations that in my mind cleared Charlie...oh, wait...it was AFTER.

This is an elaborate smokescreen: confirmed innocents are trusted above unconfirmed townsfolk. It's sort of a duh. If you're basing your case over me stating the obvious, that's not scummy. Neither is stating someone's cleared and treating their claim as sincere if you acutally are the Cop. That's good business.

I was unaware that cops needed to state repeatedly and at times that it isn't relevant who their investigations say are town. I was under the impression they only needed to mention it once and then everyone would know they the result.

2) Yawn. WIFOM. Scum could very easily fake that. That's a load, and you know it.

Haha, nice. What a complete turnaround. Ghostlin started this little thread of argument by including that I was too concerned with self-preservation as part of his "third-party case." The post Ghostlin is claiming I am WIFOMing with is me saying that his accusation of scummyness with regards to self-preservation from NKs makes no sense.

That seems like I phrased it wrong. To wit: Ghostlin uses me being too concerned with self-preservation as a reason I am scummy, then lists some things that only show me wanting to be preserved from NKs. I reply that this makes no sense as scum don't need to be afraid of their own NK. Now Ghostlin says that I am using WIFOM to declare myself town because scum wouldn't be afraid of NKs. Even though my statement was directly in response to his argument being bad, and not that my wanting to survive from NKs means that I am town. It had nothing to do with the second at all.

3) They're not going to autoassume doc either. Which is essentally what you said, King. A wise player would wait for a claim, even provoke it.

A wise player would role-fish the claimed PR?

4) It creates a link (not a strong one) between you and Dazzy that should be noticed and commented on.

Ok then.
...
Well what comments ya got? 'Cause I got nothing.

5) Um...no, we can't necessarly. Did you not read your own posts Day 1 or Day 2? You only start mentioning this business, when under the gun, NOW IN LYLO.

Oh ok, so because I didn't state my reads previous to LyLo that means that all the times I mentioned them in LyLo never happened. Makes perfect sense.

I have stated my reads over and over again, Dazzy is town, Charlie was neutral-town until Ghostlin started buddying him, Mute is null by himself but scum with Ghostlin, and Ghostlin is scum.

6) Bullshit. You were going to hammer if your posts are going to be believed. If you were serious about Foresti's letting him live for town's comments, you should have voted when we were done. You didn't vote TS at all that day. Your votes don't indicate any insistence of. You let off pressure.

My posts numbered 25, 26, 27, 31, 32, and

especially

34 are all from day 1, all from after the hammering thing, and all push TS.
Due to replacements nobody made many comments on TS at all for awile.

7) That last point is my point. You found it less likely (I think you used the phrase 'greatly unlikely') in an argument we had about the validity of information a townie shouldn't have.

...
...
I was unaware that your point was that I slightly changed my take on a situation because scum would have to be really dumb to do something. I thought it was more you saying I was making a "too scummy to be scum" argument, even though I didn't make one.

8) ...Which you've only mentioned on Day 3. We've not had any town reads before Day 3 from you. God, I sound like a broken record.

9) You texted walled, had two obvious suspects, and didn't EVEN FOS one. The most you did to TS was a Double HoS. There's NO point in town being that passive.

10-11) It's scummy if you don't ever let us know any reprision of your reads until endgame. You've been the only so...stingy with those. You could say anything about anyone now. You could say code from the pyramids proves that Dazzy is my supersecret scumpartner....we don't have a read on Dazzy, and the only read we have on Charlie is esssntally you thought he was scum Day 1. We'd have to utterly take your word for it on the reads, King. NO TOWNIE DOES THAT. Usually, they'll mention town reads, even in passing.

Ok, yes, I get it. Post town-reads and crap next time.

Why the heck did you leave this unmentioned till LyLo if it was so obviously scummy and anti-town anyway? Should have just asked me for my reads instead.

Try something more covnincing. Seriously, the worst you would of done at L-2 would of put him at L-1, which if you were convinced he was guilty, like you SAY YOU WERE, you should of applied the pressure back so we could reexamine the wagon.

Guys: this is the scummiest defense ever: "I didn't vote the lynch wagons because I didn't want to put them close to hammer, but I totally would of voted them if there was no danger of that." How do you think we win the game through lynches, anyway? If all of town voted like that, NONE of us would get anywhere.

Or I could have, you know,

not

tunneled onto TS and applied pressure to some other people as well while I was waiting for people to comment on TS. Like I did.

Same with the Mer wagon except replace "other people" with "Ghostlin" and "waiting for people to comment" with "I want to push him because he is scummy."

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
@KingTwelveSixteen: Ghostlin's most probable scumbuddy.
...

Huh? I thought you said you read the arguments.
That would be Mute.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

See, here's my point: everyone suspects Mute. If we lynch correctly today, and there is no further points to discuss, then Tomorrow's lynch is already decided. Am I wrong?

The only thing is, that's almost too easy. Everyone thought that TS was scum due to his comments that seemed off, and he's now dead. Everyone thought Mer was scum due to the fakeclaim, and he's now dead. Now the most compelling evidence for Mute being scum is a VCA. Everytime we've strung up the obvious candidate, a townie ends up dead.

If I'm telling the truth as the Cop, you have a way to tell whether or not this is an elaborate setup or if Mute is scum. We need a way that takes me out of the supposition and helps confirm Mute's alignment. (If you lynch wrong regardless, Town loses.)

There's not much more I have to say on the whole King thing. If you seriously think not advertising your tells to town and refusing to vote when you acutally had plenty of time to do some a game day, and the evidence of the majority of five games having the generic wisdom be one scum off, one scum on the wagon. Yes, I played this aggressive, I played this aggressive to say alive. While I never lied to town outright (regardless of King's assertions), I said things in a certain way to provoke. Even my most scummy move in this game, the TS lynch, was engineered to be ultimately town. We shouldn't have and weren't going to lynch Mer that day. Meanwhile, King supposed he'd be around Day 2, delibrately withheld information Day 1 twilight so he could set up the maximum suspicion on me.

Let me ask you a question that's a bit WIFOMsque, Charlie: Stop and think about this for a minute: TClaw was fairly convinced I was town. King was screaming bloody murder Day 2 that I wasn't town. His entire reasoning for not airing his suspicions Twilight 1 was he was afraid if I was scum I'd NK him. Two things I wanna ask you as the IC:

1) First off, as a VT, why would he be afraid to die? He

didn't

claim a PR, and outside of lylo, VT's have not much to lose.
2) Why would it be more optimal if you accept Ghostlin=scum, for me to get rid of a player who had less suspicion of me than than King did? Also, Foresti never suspected me of anything N1 and was not and active player. Besides WIFOM, what's my motive for killing a possible mislynch?

1. Arguing that we shouldn't lynch the person who is most scummy.

2. Refusal to reveal and never thinking about something (with nobody asking me about it), thus forgetting to do it are completly different things.

3. Nobody was calling Ghostlin scum because of his aggresiveness.

4. Ghostlin did lie. Forseti stopped me from lynching TS, not Ghostlin like he claimed.

5. How did waiting 'till day 2 to reveal my suspicions set up the maximum amount of suspicion? It would be the same amount of suspicion if I had just said it during day-1

6. Why would scum be afraid of the NK? Why is Ghostlin still using this to say I am scummy when I have completely countered it?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

1) If Mute's the most scummy, why are you voting me? Honestly, if you are saying Mute's the most scummy,

why isn't your vote on the most scummy player?

Oh, if you're trying to turn this into why I'm not voting Mute: investigated guilty scum>unknown probable scum. Always.

guh...wha? Ghostlin

CLAIMED COP WITH A GUILTY ON ME!

Why would either of us not be voting the other?!!?

The whole point is that Ghostlin is trying to get his partner Mute off of the lynchblock tommorow in case he(Ghostlin) dies, which is seeming pretty likely to me since Charlie hasn't been fooled and I think Dazzy hasn't been either. Mute is also lookin' pretty bussy from his last post on Ghostlin, so the third vote might even come from there...

...
3) Then what do you have? The TS and Mer cases which you agree on needed to happen but disagree with the timing of (and frankly, I don't see your point about the Mer case, I didn't hammer, just put him at L-2)? Shall I quote that to you? Misreps?

You've misrepped people too.

My 'lie', which is more of an exaggeration?

?
Did I ever say Ghostlin's role in the Mer case was scummy? I don't think I did...
OH! I remember. I called Ghostlin's setting-up of Mer-the-claimed-PR's lynch day-1 as scummy. Ghostlin also misrepping him and stuff. I never called his vote on Mer scummy as far as I can remember though.

Ignoring the point to focus on something unrelated?

Check

.

Exaggeration is just a fancy way people justify their lies. Well, it can also be used for jokes and stuff, but mostly lying.
Also, that wasn't an exaggeration, it was just a plain-ole lie.

@Underlined: Once again attempting to justify his own scumyness by saying others are scummy as well.

4) My post: #122

...

Your post #127:

...

While maybe not directly "stopping" you, it seems my accusation forced you to vomit up that mea culpa. Also, explain yourself: you said you thought it'd be OK to do it on Page 7, never took TS to L-1, and then accused me when I hammered on Page 12.

So, Ghostlin made me realise on a big meta-level or whatever that quicklynches were bad because

other people couldn't comment on it

in addition to the other 2 reasons I thought it was scummy. Now he is trying to use me almost quick-lynching because I didn't think of that reason as a reason why him

quicklynching before everyone could comment on stuff that happened

makes him less scummy?
Contr-o-diction.
(Also, justifying bad behavior other behavior bad blah blah ect.)

"Not directly stopping" looks more like "didn't have anything to do with the lack of a quicklynch" to me.

5. Then why didn't you reveal it Twilight 1? If it didn't matter...You know, this entire argument is a WIFOM.

It wouldn't be WIFOM if Ghostlin could give a scum motivation instead of just saying that there is one.

6. Let me explain to you the inconsistency here: You have claimed VT. You said you would comment on the goings on the following Day. When asked about it, you said it was to prevent scum (namely me by your accusation) from NKing you. As a VT, you have nothing to protect, and it's not in your best interest to conceal information from town. So either you're a really bad townie, or a scum that realized his opportunity to softclaim was gone.

???
Not being able to softclaim is why scum would do what I did? What?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I still think Mute is Ghostlin's scumbuddy. Ghostlin even made a little argument against lynching him tommorow since he would be the most scummy and lynching the most scummy person failed us the first two days . That part was the final little nail in the coffin that is Mute-scum.

------------

Good game to the scum though, before Ghostlin messed up at the end of day-1 I had a pretty good town read on him and everything. Mute managed to pull off being null for the whole game, which is pretty good for scum I think, but to bad for him he got POE'ed and partnered(is that a word?) out today.

If the other scum is Dazzy or Charlie then

very

good game sirs, you have most certainly earned the win you are probably going to get tommorow. I tip my non-existant hat to you.

Good game to the townie people as well, since I'm giving out GG's like hot-cakes right now.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Whoa King don't start calling the game just yet.

I'm definitely not set on Mute as scum

. I'm working on something, it will go up before my vote for safety.

Why does everyone have to start acting weird

AFTER I make up my mind...

Wait, what?

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Sweet.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Hehehe.

Just FYI: The scum motivation that I totally screwed up in revealing day-1 twilight was that me saying something then would likely result in a cop investigation.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Whee! First game as scum and I get the win.

Actual trueness Good Games to all who participated, instead of the fakey-type ones I made previously. Thought I was done for for a sec' there when Ghostlin claimed cop.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Oh yeah, special props to the mod for that little deadline-timer thingie, that was really nice. Completely destroys any chance of people being unsure about when the deadline is.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

All I know for sure is that king is town and Ghostlin is scum.

The night kill will reveal more.

Awesome.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I'm betting king and mute are scum. King is scum for sure.

Le gasp! Looks like we made the right kill-choice then.