Mini 1140 - Mafia Mishmash...Game Over!!

[Regfan]

I detest RV's so I think I'll keep my vote in my pocket. (I know what they're supposed to do, I just don't think it really does it.)

I couldn't agree with this more, I don't see any real logic behind random-voting in an attempt to gauge reactions as people know that's the intention is.

Lets get the ball rolling, I have some questions for all of you:

1. What's your time-zone
2. Have you played with anyone in here before, if so what was their play-style like? (Remember you can't mention ongoing games)
3. Do you prefer being town or mafia generally?
4. How often are you likely to post?
5. Do you generally like leading or following?

As for the answers to my own questions:

1. GMT + 11, I live in Sydney Australia thus my posting schedule will be different to yours.
2. I don't believe so, correct me if I'm wrong though.
3. Town for sure, I thoroughly enjoy scum-hunting.
4. Quite often, likelyhood is once or twice a day.
5. Leading without a doubt.

[Regfan]

2. Metagaming is at BEST as illogical as RVS, if not a LOT less so.

Not at all, metagaming certaintly isn't concerete or something you would base a case of, but it's still highly relevant to the game.

3. Irrelavent. Everyone is going to say "Town" to keep suspicion off of themselves. In keeping with this, I shall say Mafia.

Assuming everyone will say town is a horrible assumption to make, I've seen and played in several games where people have stated scum or third party, again it's not something I'd use to base a lynch but it allows discussion to get started.

4. How often are you likely to post?

Any particular reason you don't want to answer this?

5. I disagree with the concept of anybody 'leading' the town, since that's kind of a scum-tell.

If leading a scum-tell, and following is a scum-tell then what do you consider not to be one?

[Regfan]

Tclawren: The idea of one person leading is really silly. Everyone should think for themselves. That doesn't mean you can't try and persuade others, but ultimately there shouldn't be a "leader" and there shouldn't be any "followers." Ideally.

Where did 'one person leading' come from, everyone does indeed think for themselves though every player has a tendancy to lead or follow in the game of mafia, thus what the question is about.

Suprise_Carcinogen: I didn't say following was a scum-tell, but leading the town certainly is. Making a case =/= leading.

Can you explain what you mean by this? I'm used to the idea that if someone is leading they're doing so by pushing a case.

Volkan: What do you think RVs are meant to achieve?

I think RV's are used to gather reactions from players as well as sparking discussions around these votes, though I've never seen these discussions lead to the catching of a mafia.

[Regfan]

Suprise_Carcinogen: I have played in two games on this site. In one of them, mafia was caught first day thanks to RV reactions. Also, the arguments and discussions of RV don't ONLY apply day 1. Who dies on night 1 can also be used to build a case

Can you show me a link to this game please?

And no, making a case isn't leading. Although, to be honest, you've taken on the role of 'leading the town' and are also asking some seriously leading questions at this point, MOST of which accomplish NOTHING. So far, we've learned very little, since any answer given can be taken either way. And, WIFOM arguments put me ill at ease.

Do you think the questions harm us? You didn't answer my question though, what do you believe to be leading if not making a case (Questioning people? If so how is that scummy?).

As for Wifom, I think it's severely over and misused.

[Regfan]

@ Suprise_Carcinogen: I just spectated that game posted, and the lynch on mafia day one had nothing to do with RVS so, again can you show me a game where RVS directly led to a lynch of mafia D1?

As for Wifom, I believe people often rule comments of as 'Wifom' without fully reading into them, a lot of comments that can be considered Wifom by some player are actually highly logical posts. Let me see if I can find the comment I made about this about a year ago at this site, should have it up in my next post.

Surpise_Carcinogen: And yes, they do harm us. Questions that muddy the water, and can be used as either proof positive or negative waste time, and can easily be used to form cases either way.

If you don't think they're relevant wouldn't you just ignore them if someone were to bring them up for a case, infact wouldn't they allow misleading information for someone to attempt to abuse thus allowing you to find a scum-tell on someone that does so?

Pappumsrat: also, hos tclawren for not joining rvs.

I didn't join the RVS either, how come you have a HoS on him for that but not on me?

I should say, refusing to partake of rvs is a little scummy because it prevents us from getting a read on that person. "I refuse to partake of RVS" is a nice way of saying "lurking time!"

Not participating in the RVS doesn't mean you're not attempting to contibute and are lurking, that's a false assumption.

[Regfan]

Sorry, that was horribly worded, what i meant to say was: If you don't think the questions and the responses to that question were relevant wouldn't you just ignore them. Then if someone were to bring them up for a case you would know that they're attempting to push a cash via unreliable evidence and be able to view that as a scum-tell?

[Regfan]

Following this... Vote:Regfan

You're insisting that your questions(like the metagaming probe, the query about whether you like to lead or follow or whether you like to be mafia and scum) are actually useful. They aren't. They serve no purpose but to waste time, and can't really serve a future purpose except to obsfucate the situation. Forcing the idea that it's actually helping doesn't really give me good feelings, and leading the town under the guise of a questionaire adds to enough that I'm willing to put a vote behind it.

So you're essentially voting me because I believe another system rather then a RVS is optimal? Mind reading this for me:
http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... ning_Stage

What I did was the alternative to the RVS because I don't see any benefit behind the RVS itself, yet I undestand other players do thus them taking part in a RVS is a null-tell and always will be. I'm still waiting on an answer in regards to 'Can you show me one game where the RVS itself led to a scum-lynch'.

[Regfan]

A) I'm not new, I've played mafia for 2 years now, intially at epicmafia then at various forum mafia websites.
B) You have stated over and over again that you find the questions and the responses of them to be irrelevant thus you are led to believe that I'm attempting to detract conversation away from something useful, yet I haven't once stated the reasoning behind the questions and nor did I plan on until sufficent enough players had replied to them. Though, you seem to be continiously pressuring and pushing against this, so for the sake of removing from this pointless discussion I'll go into them.

1. Was asked to have an idea of when to expect people to post, before, after, during when I post ect.
2. You may continously state that meta-gaming is useless and have never seen it help, but again that's your opinion something that I strongly disagree, the purpose of this question is to gain a broad understanding of the bonds formed inside the room. As well as if anyone has anything notable they remember that a particular player does a few examples would be (Tunnel, Lurk, OMGUS, AtE). Sure, the fact they may have used them in the past as mafia doesn't mean they're mafia this game from it but it helps gain a better understanding if it's their natural play-style if they're attempting to differ from it.
3. This question was asked not for peoples exact responses but instead the manner they did so in, if they're highly confident and secure with their answer, whether they're flaky or unsure on what to answer.
4. This question againw as so I have an idea of how much content people are likely to post and to be frank, it just for curiosities sake.
5. I've seen multiple players in the past sheep lynches without much questioning and response, I've ended up tunnelling and pushing against these players due to it to find out they sheep regardless of allignment. It's things like this that I'm interested in finding out.

C) To state that a lynch on mafia in previous games is purely due to the RVS period is a blatant lie, though I do agree with you saying that the RQS isn't that much better, personally I like neither and to start discussion around optimal ways to play the setup but since this setup is open we cant' do that. Thus my attempt to deviate from the norm of the RVS and instead attempt RQS which occasionally puts people on the spot. Though, from reading peoples responses I don't have a real-leading suspect at the moment though I will need to have a proper re-read later when I'm not as tired.

[Regfan]

Again, never have I said any of the points would be used in a case, just to help me gather a feel of the players and to attain some basic gut reads. The idea of 'Just because seomeone used those methods doesn't mean they will do it again' really shows how little attention you paid to my posts because I explicitly said that although it doesn't mean they're going to play that way this game it gives us some basis to work from. Again, what's the point of asking questions for reactions if you're going to explain what reactions you're looking for? In regards to C, this is my second open setup, I normally stick to closed setups.

So lets just get this right:

- I dislike RVS, you say refraining from using RVS is a scumtell.
- I bring up questions, you attempt to discredit the questions before an explanation was given towards them and before they had a chance to work at all, you state those questions are a scumtell.
- Someone points out that disliking and refraining from using the RVS is a null-tell, you instantly turn the previous scum-tell on me towards 'anti-town' behavior even though you understand the RVS vs RQS debate.
- I explain the reasoning behind the questions, you state that you don't think Meta-exists or is relevant thus the questions are still a scum-tell

Have I got that right? Because from what I'm reading you're attempting to change your reasoning behind the vote whenever it suits it, you seem to have your tunnel goggles on.

[Regfan]

I've just re-read the thread today and decided I would upload my current reads, they are:

Andrew94

- Lack of real content which involve him shying away from any real content while ignoring the rest of the thread. Leaning mafia-null.

Pappums rat

- Posts seem to involve traces of buddying, though I don't find any scum-tells and I find myself agreeing with and thinking his post #96 was a town-tell. Leaning town.

Suprise_Carcinogen

- Shows an attempt to scum-hunt however has shown tunnelling and some illogical posts but nothing concievably scummy (With the exception of post #95). Leaning null.

Maxous

- Posts come across to be pro-town with evidence of scum-hunting whoever some of their questioning seems to be leading to unresponsive answers. Leaning, town-null.

Volkan

- Posts include copious amounts of logic and reasonable content. Leaning town.

Truant

- I agree with essentially all of his posts thus far and they seem to have town-motives behind them. Leaning town.

CuriousKarmaDog

- High lack of content in this game, only relevant post involves a vote due to 'gut' with no explanation of what caused it. Leaning mafia-null.

Magnetic

- Has posted nine times throughout this game thus far, none involving any content relevant or attempting to be relevant to the game until the last one which was just to join the bandwagon on Yura without adding any reasoning behind his vote other then "needs to go". Leaning mafia-null.

Subgenius

- Something doesn't sit right about his posts but I can't pin-point what it is, though his posts have been constructive and he has shown signs of scum-hunting. Leaning mafia-null (Puring due to gut unforunatly).

Tclwaren

- Shows an effort to scum-hunt and partcipate throughout his posts, his explanation behind his vote I view to be a town-tell. Leaning town.

Yura-Chi

- His posts as Voltan stated don't fit what a noob townie would do meaning his whole anti-town and 'caught in headlights' behaviour comes across as a strong scum-tell. Leaning mafia-null.

Summary:

Town

Pappums rat
Truant
Volkan
Tclwaren

Town-Null

Maxous

Null

Suprise_Carcinogen

Mafia-Null

Yura-Chi
Andrew94
CuriousKarmaDog
Magnetic
Subgenius

With all that being said:

Vote: Magnetic

[Regfan]

So, out of five people, I'm the one who gets a vote?
I think Regfan just didnt vote Yura cuz he might be seen bandwagoning.
How have I done nothing productive?
So people who haven't done much so far are the people who you find scummy, is that it?
Your post contains nothing too. Just points out the non-contributors (I don't see how I didn't contribute) and throws a seemingly random vote on me.

You're just instantly OMGUS'ed with this vote, I voted you because I thought it would provoke a reaction which it indeed did as well as the fact another vote on Yura wouldn't change a single thing right now, we're not lynching him this early into the day and one more vote won't add anything to his reaction when he reads the thread again. If you believe you're done something 'productive' then state which post you think it's in because I'd love to see. I find this early into a game mafia tend to actively lurk, therefore people posting however saying nothing are my biggest suspects (Ie, You). Where did I state my post contains anything other then my opinion and reads of other players? You're attempting to push the attention back-towards me rather then actually elaborating on your read of Yura or anyone else.

[Regfan]

Vote: Regfan

I claim Town Weak Doctor. You are wrong Regfan. I'm town.

So you have one vote on you, therefore you claim and vote the person voting you? Explain the logic behind that, also what does a 'town weak doctor' do exactly? I've never heard of that role before.

[Regfan]

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Doctor
Weak Doctor: This doctor dies if he protects an anti-town player.

'So much pressure' it was one vote, not something that should force you to claim.

I believe that's the definition of a weak doctor, though never played with one before so I'm not sure. For now:

Unvote

[Regfan]

Oh, so is that the correct definition of town-weak-doc?
Didn't know. So I'm confirmed town.
Everyone, looks for scums OTHER than me.

What... This posts makes zero sense whatsoever.

[Regfan]

I'm confirmed town cuz I'm town's doctor. Get it?
Cuz I'm confirmed, I want everyone to exclude me from their list of scummy dudes and look for someone OTHER than me who's scummy. That makes 100% sense.
I'm just increasing the town's possibility of catching the real scum and saving many minutes for other people who might want to look into me. I'm town, so don't anymore.

I'm sorry, I'm not following this at all, since you claimed doctor it's impossible for you to be mafia? Is that what you're saying? Can you link me to a game you've played where you were town in the past, thanks in advance.

[Regfan]

So...from now on, before going into night, should I say Who I'm going to protect?

That would probably be a good idea, but we'll go into this later.

P-Edit: Okay.
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=16462&start=0

Sorry, that's my fault for not specifying, I meant a finished game (It's against the rules to mention or talk about an ongoing game).

Edit: Yura, did you miss his claim? If not, do you think he's fake claiming as mafia?

[Regfan]

What do you mean by "traces of buddying"?

Bottom of post #30, his interaction with Subgenius seems to be an attempt to suck up.


I don't know whether to headdesk or cry right now after reading Yuza and Magnetics posts.

[Regfan]

As usual, no idea what Yura is saying.
Lol.
I Lied. I'm not doctor. I won't claim anything until I'm on L-1.
I was just looking at your reactions. Yura is scummy.
Regfan is also scummy. Unvoting when a PR claims is always scummy read on me.

You're going to need to elaborate on this:

A) Why did you claim a PR with one vote on you, even if you want reactions doing so may infact our a cc or another PR's claim?
B) What made you pick Weak Town Doctor to fake claim out of every role in the game?
C) If you were doing it for reactions, why wouldn't you do so when more players are online thus being able to attain more reactions?
D) You claim a PR with one vote on you, ask me to unvote and then you believe unvoting is scummy after that? So you claim to say that a townie would keep his vote on you even with a claim occuring?

It's starting to look like you're backpedalling from someone pointing out you didn't even explain your own role correctly.

[Regfan]

I can understand where Bgg is coming from though there are advantages and disadvantages to proloning the day.

Advantages being:
- Allows for more discussion therefore more to re-read later to attain suspects and build cases.
- The possibilty that Magnetic and other players interactions with Magnetic will give us a better clue of their allignment, however people will just yell WIFOM whenever any of this is brought up.
- The possibilty of finding a new lynch target

Disadvantages being:
- It allows mafia to have more time to work out who the correct NK is
- The day turns into useless and baseless discussion which detracts from future scum-hunting.

Personally, I believe drawing the day out at least a few more days i s beneficial there's a lot of players who have yet to post any real content and I think it's a must to hear them out before doing anything else, in that interest can someone please unvote.

[Regfan]

Mafia edit? What? I don't know what to read from that so for now I'll ignore it.

The more interactions we have, the more we can learn from whoever the mafia select as their NK, so I disagree that this is a disadvantage.

The longer the day goes the more time mafia have to work out who the most dangerous town-player is or most likely PR, so I do agree with you to an extent but it is a disadvantage as well.

I don't understand this at all. Clarify how you figure that people will call WIFOM, apparently in your opinion regardless of what manner of information comes up?

For instance, I view the intercations between Magnetic and Yura today lead it to be highly unlikely for them to be partners, this is due to the manner they're addressed each other as well as the fact they're both attempting to divert their lynch to the other player. I don't see newbmafia bussing in a position like this, thus I think if Magnetic is mafia then Yura is town, same vice-versa. However, someone else will look at this point and rule it out as WIFOM. The same will occur with future interactions between these two players and everyone else as the day progresses.

[Regfan]

unvote vote Maxus
I think some pressure needs to be applied here. interested to hear this thoughts on the matter if he was at -1.

Want to explain to me the point of a pressure vote if you've already stated it's sole intention is to create pressure?

[Regfan]

if you tell a man that he is under pressure when a 400 lb woman is sitting on him, doesnt he still feel the pressure?

Physical pressure and mental pressure are highly different things and incomparitable. I have no issue with your vote, I just don't see how it applies any form of pressure especially considering in the last 20 posts a large deal of players have already stated no lynch apart from Mag or Yura are getting lynched. As for you wanting 'more votes', I'm holding my vote of for a more solid case at the moment.

[Regfan]

Pressure IS pressure. It could be any analogy.

If you hold up a dagger, and tell somebody that it is a dagger, it is still a dagger, and still serves its purpose.
If you hold the dagger up to somebody's neck, and say "I am only doing this to apply pressure to you so that you tell me this secret", you are not reducing any pressure of this threat.

I've already gone ove this, there's a massive difference between a physical pressure and a mental one. Lets use some other mental examples to prove my point:

If I tell you that you get below 50% in your exam that I'll drop you from the subject but you know that I have no control or power to do so my 'pressure' point would have no effect.
If I told someone I will kill them if they don't beg for forgiveness but I have no weapon or means to kill them with, then there's no pressure.
If I told someone, I'm going to reaction-test you by faking a guilty on you to see your reaction and then proceed to follow it up with faking a guilty on them, the initial purpose of the reaction-test has vanished already.

I can continue to go on if you would like, but the point is as soon as the person knows the entire intention of your actions is to pressure them and they know regardless of the pressure you put on them, they're in no danger then the pressure vote/test would be moot and pointless from the very beginnging.

[Regfan]

What I'm attempting to get through to you is that Maxous clearly knows theres no real pressure as the lynch has been decided today, he also knows the vote was done for the sole reason for gauging a reaction. Therefore he would know and be able to manipulate his reaction to seem townie if he was mafia, meaning any reaction he does do would be considered meaningless.

Unless you mean to say that you think the one pressure vote on him could turn into a lynch based soley of the reaction he gives to a known-reaction test, and if that's the case then do you currently think he's mafia, and if so what makes you think that?

[Regfan]

.................................................................

I'm not even going to bother explaining this to you again, it's basic logic.

[Regfan]

Magnetic, I have some questions I want you to answer:

A) Why did you retract your doctor claim?
B) What reactions were you aiming for if anything, what did you learn via doing so?
C) Do you have any suspects other then Yura?
D) If you really are 'Weak Doctor' how did you get the definition of what your role does wrong?

[Regfan]

If he does flip mafia, then I would consider Yura town.

[Regfan]

In all honestly, the early hammer wasn't needed but it can't be changed now. Andrews probably also town if Mag flips mafia, I don't see him stating he was going to come back to 'defend a lynch of a mafia' if Mag flips mafia, however this could be ruled out as WIFOM.

[Regfan]

Wow. Alright, I'm going to assume there's either a vig in the setup or mafia have some form of dominating power. I'm not used to setups where roles aren't specified prior to it so I have a few questions for you all:

1) How many mafia do you believe there is, do you think we still have multiple ML's?
2) What's a town sledgehammer?

<-- If tclawren had placed the hammer vote he would have been nk immune.

3) What do you make out of the twilight conversation yesterday.

As for my current reads:

Summary:

Town

Pappums rat

Truant
Volkan

Tclwaren

Town-Null

Maxous
Null
Suprise_Carcinogen

Mafia-Null

Yura-Chi
Andrew94
CuriousKarmaDog

Magnetic

Subgenius

I plan on doing an ISO on CuriousKarmaDog, should be up within a few hours.

[Regfan]

N = Null-tell. S1 = Minor Scum-tell. S2 = Medium Scum-tell. S3 = Strong Scum-tell. T1 = Minor Town-tell. T2 = Medium Town-tell. T3 = Strong Town-tell. I will use this system for any ISO I do this game.

ISO on CuriousKarmaDog:

1. Answers RQS questions. N.
2. Mentions he's catching up on reading. N.
3. Mentions that discussion revolves around theory without adding his thoughts on it, progresses to predict a replacement while calling a 'RVS vote on Voltron' bad. Votes Pappmus after RVS period with 'gut' as his explanation. S2
4. Brings up that Yura is a bad lynch without going into why again, asks Magnetic a question without chasing an answer. S1
5. Asks Volkan if he really thinks he's scum again. N leaning S1
6. Questions Magnetic, again doesn't chase an answer. S1
7. Votes Maxmum stating it's a pressure vote removing the entire point of it. S1
8. Pushs his reasoning of 'delaying the day is good'. N leaning S1.
9. Attempts to defend his reasoning behind the pressure vote via bringing up an illogical comparison. Asks if I have a problem with the vote when it's clear that I was against the rasoning, not the vote. S1.

My conclusion from the ISO is that he's made a point to stay out of massive discussions sharing little to no reasoning behind the few actions and posts he does make. On top of that his attempt to question Magnetic without chasing an answer seems to be like an attempt to seem town for when Magnetic flips town as does his attempt to change the vote to someone else fully knowing that Magnetic would still be lynched. With all that said:

Vote: CuriousKarmaDog

Cut by Andrew: Mafia-Null is I find their lack of action or actions scummy but not enough for me to consider them as one of my leading mafia suspects.
As for 'what conversation', I mean Yuras interaction with Magnetic and posts.

[Regfan]

@Regfan: Why did you decide to ISO CKD above the others?

His actions rubbed just before the hammer rubbed me the wrong way, something just seemed of especially when he never came back to attempt to make anything of his Maxomus push even though he was online close to the lynch.

[Regfan]

Part of the problem is that ISOing means you focus on quantity of posts analysed over depth of analysis - this is also why ISO is extremely easy to exploit as scum.

Understandable.

Why should he have added his thoughts on a theory discussion, when he seemed to be complaining about it anyway?

Logical theory discussion allows for an ice-breaker into the game therefore even if he were to complain about it as he did he would have no reason to avoid discussion related to it.

Also, gut is horrifically anti-town, but it isn't scummy.

Disagree, saying a vote is due to 'gut' allows the player to shy away from explaining the real reasons behind the vote, therefore allowing a player to be excused when the concequences of an incorrect lynch go through.

Similarly, saying "This is a pressure vote" is stupid, but it's hardly scummy.

Stating something is a pressure vote removes the intial point of it. The phrasement of the post makes it seem as if it's saying 'I'm doing something pro-town by pressure testing!'. Then when logic had proven it to be useless he attempted to cover it up comparison of something obviously irrelevant.

There was no reasonable argument against Magnetic's lynch, and the case for stalling was weak (let's not lynch right away, in case something happens!). Magnetic's was scummy as hell and, moreover, any reason for doubt relied on assuming he was trolling (which is an impossible assumption to make).

This.

[Regfan]

Answering Vollkan
I'm voting for Yura right now as my vote is useless if it's not used, and it's based on what I believe to be the best hard evidence so far in the game. Also, as an overall meta standpoint that I firmly believe in: if we punish scum for making "optimal" decisions (killing those who are a threat to them) by analyzing every NK for motivation, then we can force them into making suboptimal decisions because they don't want to get outed. Therefore, by forcing them into making suboptimal decisions we can gain a slight advantage resulting more often in a town win.

Let me point out for you how stupid this sounds, you're essentially saying:

- Mafia killed a townie.
- Therefore we should lynch that townies FoS, even if I don't really suspect that person at all infact fought against them being lynched earlier for the sole reason that doing so will make mafia want to shoot townies who don't FoS them in the future. This means they will shoot townies that FoS other townies, and we will lynch that townies FoS. Continue over until we lose.

[Regfan]

1)Honestly, because it never crossed my mind.
2)No, never played a game with a SK in forum mafia before.
3)I would guess the vig kill is pap since I think tcla was obv town.
4)Suprisingly enough I haven't been mafia yet on MS.

[Regfan]

@ Maxous, I'm actually unsure how I forgot to add her onto my list I'll ISO and post related to her later.

@Subgenius did you C/P a few lines of that and spam paste until it looked like a big enough block?

[Regfan]

Maxous: @Regfan: Why did you ask these questions to Magnetic here? Did you think it is still possible for him to be an actual doctor?

I thought it was possible he was just an idiot and we could still get some information from him.

Yura:I personally think that sc is defending bgg so badly that there might be a connection between them...

Which of the two do you think is most likely to be mafia though, and why?

Ckd: this comes out of fucking NO WHERE...this reeks of someone(s) thinking I am a threat and being directed to start pushing something on me...why me out of everyone who is left?...I wasnt on the fucking townie lynch....I know he has a "case" later...so I will wait till then.

Out of nowhere? I was refuting the logic you used throughout the entire second half of yesterday. You attemtping to say 'This comes out of fucking NOWHERE' is merely an attempt to gain symapthy if anything.

Ckd: So he posts the above on 3:22, and posts the below at 3:45…so it is fucking obvious he went into my “ISO” with the plan of painting me as scum

So you believe 9 small posts should take longer then 23 minutes to ISO? You're attemping to harp on a irrelevant detail here and in an attempt to unverify the case.

lets take his point 3 for example (what he deems was a medium scum tell)…he fails to mention in this case was this was on page 3. Interesting point: after my post he decides that Magnetic is scummier then myself..he unvotes, then doesn’t revote anyone for the rest of the day.

A) What does page 3 have to do with anything, it was out of RVS period therefore your vote is expected to have some reasoning behind it or at least show some intiative to post content, you did neither.
B) I voted Magnetic for a reaction at first, unvoted because I was unsure whether to read him as caught mafia or dumb town and didn't vote again because I didn't want to risk shortening the day as much as it ended up.
C) Again here you're attemping to unverify my case by bringing up something completly irrelevant, who I voted has nothing to do with your actions.

Point 4, you take liberties with what I actually said…I said that Yuro was a bad vote, it is pretty obvious why..but lets play your game…lets say I DID SAY yuro was a bad lynch…why is that slightly scummy?

'It's pretty obvious why'. No it's not, explain to me why yura is or was a bad lynch. Stating someone is a bad lynch without being willing to go into discussion showing your reasoning IS a scum-tell because mafia often do it in an attempt to either A) Buddy a townie B) Attempt to seem as if they're scum-hunting.

6, you say I didn’t follow up on the question..dude didn’t post…I found something else that was scummier and went after it….but lets say I DIDN’T FOLLOW up…what is scummy about that? The guy wasn’t posting…I could understand you saying this was scummy if he flipped scum…but he flipped town.

Explain the relevance of this defence at all, what does his allignment have to do with your play? If you ask someone a question, you either A) Harp over it until you get an answer B) State real reasoning for stopping hunting for that answer. Again you've done neither.

7, is not really even a point?...just because you didn’t understand what I was saying doesn’t mean it was scummy…also at this point YOU WERENT VOTING ANYONE…so, really who was scummier here?

A) 'Didn't even undestand what you were saying', you're attempting to paint me as stupid to unverify this point when this has already been discussed with several players in this thread and there IS no benefit to stating you want pressure votes when you pressure vote.
B) Again you're attempting to unverify my case, what does not voting have to do with you attempting to fake a town-tell.
C) You're attempting to draw comparisons with yourself and me instead of defending the points against you.

The case is a bad case and it was obvious that you went into it with the mind set that I was going to scum at the end of it..

You're attempting to reaffirm 'the case is bad' by just repeating it again not pointing out any real flaws in it.

uhhhh, what?....I dont even understand this post. I am scummy because the town quick lynched someone and I didnt have a chance to comment?

The quicklynch has absolutely nothing to do with it, you attempting to vote Maxomus while it was inherently obvious that Magnetic was going to get lynched does.

lets say I was(somewhere on site), how do you know that and WHY IS THAT FUCKING SCUMMY

What? Are you saying 'when did you decide things are scumtells?'

.question, when did you "decide" you thought I was scummy?

Mid to end of yesterday, if you read back you'll notice me saying it as well.

!!!!!!!!!this vote makes just as little sense as regfan…please someone else see this!!!!!!!!!!!

The !!!!!!!!!!!'s are an attempt to put emphasis on soemthing rather then explaining it this all smells of AtE.

soooo, you have never been in a game with a SK...have you been in a game with a vig?...can you provide a link?

Game I was in with a vig: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 37&start=0

also, you "think" there is a vig in this game. this is why I think you are a bullshit artist my friend...given the votes day one..if you really believed that was a vig who killed pap, who would you think it would have been??!?!?

You want me to speculate on who I think a town PR is? What benefit does that give us at all, if anything it assists mafia in knowing who to kill. For someone who has been here for 4 years you should know this.

There is no way you are buying what you are trying to sale.

Elaborate?

[Regfan]

That said, I think you are right to point out that it's unclear why he chose to ISO you in the first place (I see he has posted below, so I don't yet know if he's responded to that issue)

I've actually responded to already, just after when I posted the ISO on him. I'm unsure how you're both seeming to miss this.Post #219,

In which posts yeseterday did you attack CKD? [/Qutote]
Posts #98 #167 #171 #181

Reg wrote:The !!!!!!!!!!!'s are an attempt to put emphasis on soemthing rather then explaining it this all smells of AtE.

This is just reaching: Reg+5
AtE is where emotion is used in lieu of argument. He used the !!!!!s in a response to Yura's god-awful vote for him. Given that, it was perfectly legitimate and natural to use the !!!!s.

Perhaps AtE isn't the right way to explain it, but adding !!!!! does nothing to benefit the town, nor do I see how it's 'legitimate or natural' considering it lays emphasis on a point without elaborating on what the point actually is.

[Regfan]

Apologies for the botched up quote tag.

[Regfan]

Perhaps AtE isn't the right way to explain it, but adding !!!!! does nothing to benefit the town, nor do I see how it's 'legitimate or natural' considering it lays emphasis on a point without elaborating on what the point actually is.

[img]Elephant%20picture[/img]

I just posted a picture of an elephant. My doing so did nothing to benefit the town. Does that mean my elephant is a scumtell?

The point CKD was making was pretty damn obvious, considering he made it in the two lines directly above his !!!!!s

I also point out that saying "Perhaps AtE isn't the right way to explain it" is a massive understatement. The reasons you give above for it being scummy are pathetically flimsy and have nothing whatsoever to do with AtE. So, basically, this is a typical case of somebody misusing a boilerplate scumtell.

The fact you're attempting to compare !!!!! and the elephant picture is beyond mind boggling. Context is a highly important factor when looking at something and deciding whether it's a scum-tell, a null-tell or a town-tell, you know this much. Stating !!!!!!!!!! before and after pointing out something that someone else has done IS an attempt to add emphasis on it, there's no two ways about it. The attempt is one that detracts from logic and reasoning being what articulates your meaning and instead attempts to read it differently as to which they normally would. I'll give you an example:

Person 1: I'm not mafia!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Person 1: I'm not mafia.

Those both can be read differently purely due to the !'s thus ! is not a null-tell. Another example would be:

Person 1: Look at my case, he's confirmed mafia and no one is following!!!!!!!
Person 1: Look at my case, he's confirmed mafia and no one is following.

Again both can be read differently. Heck, what's the difference between '!' and 'CAPSLOCK' invovled in a post, and capslock may not lead someone to be mafia or not, but it may make their post seem like angryobvtown, or caughtscum.

[Regfan]

Sorry for the double post. In regards to bgg1996/Sub/S_C's posts I'm going to need to re-read the thread some point tommorow I'll state my reads on them then.

[Regfan]

1) Does not benefit town; and
On 1), I posted the elephant to show that there are plenty of things that have no benefit to the town - that doesn't make them scummy

/Headesk.
Seriously.
/Headesk.

It's impossible to compare posting something with the sole intention of proving a point, which is what the elephant is. (You posted it, not to help, not to hurt, not to seem like you're helping thus it has no meaning) and posting filler posts all which have no benefit to town while attempting to seem as if you're 'helping' (Which is what I read from CKD's posts).

2) Lays emphasis without elaborating
On 2), see my second sentence - his point was obvious.

His point was this:

This just feels like a bullshit case job (lets get another quick mislynch)…..so I am scummy, because I thought you a vote from vollkan against you was bad?...explain.

Explain how his point is 'obvious here', he's saying, your case is bad because it's bad.

[Regfan]

There were two elements to your attack on CKD:
1) Does not benefit town; and
2) Lays emphasis without elaborating

I read this as. 1) Refering to the rest of my case, and 2) Refering to the !!!!. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Regfan]

Ah, I see. I assumed your 1) was in refrence to my entire case as a whole and that you were attempting to use the picture of the elephant to draw similarity with me saying he hasn't done anything to add benefit.

In that case, I can slightly see what you mean, but saw his "This just feels like a bullshit case job (lets get another quick mislynch)" as completly directed at the case I made, not the Yura line, I'd like for him to clarify what it's reference is to.

[Regfan]

I'm finding it hard to attain strong reads on a lot of players in this game. I've been keeping up with the thread, and I would have to agree on Yura/Bgg's posts being anti-town and unhelpful but I still don't have a scumread on either of them, that being said I don't have a townread on them.

Still waiting on a post from CKD, but looking at his other game, seems like he's very challenged with time at the moment so I'll give him a while.

@ Andrew, which 1 post in this game do you think has been the scummiest, and why?
@ Voltron, how exactly does the point system influence your voting? Do you always vote the player who has the highest score?
@ Sub, who is your strongest two FoS's right now and why?

[Regfan]

Yes, but the bad part of false-claiming is that it kills power roles, protecting yourself isn't the scummy part.
Going after scum doesn't really have a bad part, and it comes with the added bonus of not getting killed.

No one is arguing that defending yourself from a lynch is incorrect and a scum-tell, but defending yourself while blindly ignoring the ultimate aim of scum-hunting and catching mafia is indeed a scum-tell. From what I've observed of your recent few posts, none have been in the aim of attaining reads on other players in the game, instead you're just arguing semantics.

[Regfan]

Are you attempting to draw comparisons between yours and my play to attempt to paint your actions as townier, if so that's futile and irrelevant. My actions hold no relevance and don't have any indication of your allignment. I've already stated my thoughts on who mafia are and am waiting for CKD to respond. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the interaction and bickering that's gone on between me and CKD.

[Regfan]

Proving you wrong as in proving my theories to be correct,
Or were you saying that you thought I was innocent, and then I do something super-scummy in your opinion?

You're going to need to re-explain this, I don't understand what you're attempting to say at all.

[Regfan]

Actually they are directly relevant, but that's not my point.

Educate me, how are they related?

I'm saying that you seem to be kind-of hypocritical. At least I am helping in a small way by showing you how wrong your theories are. All of you are just tunneling on each-other. Look at your examples of "scumminess" in his ISO. Saying something without elaborating isn't a scum-tell, it even happens all the time. If you were confused by his reasons you should've asked.

Tunnelling implies pushing on someone while ignoring all logic and other possibilties, I haven't seen anyone do that this game, not real tunnelling anyway. Pushing case against someone is actually beneficial if you're willing to stand back, observe the response and make a judgment.

[Regfan]

That's actually highly incorrect bgg1996, very very incorrect. In fact that logic is so stupid it's not even funny.

You're saying, if a townie is scummy, then mafia will be scummier then him still.

[Regfan]

Before I drop the subject: Would a mafia member tell you that he was doing something that he believed was scummy? Either I'm not a mafia member, or I don't believe it is a scummy thing to do. If I don't think it's a scummy thing to do, then I would do it regardless of whether I was mafia or townie. Then how is it scummy, regardless of whether it may be anti-town?

Textbook Wifom.

No, not necessarily. I'm saying that, with an ideal scum-meter, people who are scummier will have a greater chance of being actual scum.

So you're saying, people who are scummier are more likely to be mafia? That's your 'big conclusion'

really?

[Regfan]

No, what I'm saying, is that my chance of being scum is completely relative to all of your behavior.

No it's not. If everyone here acts scummy, the odds you drew mafia instead of town still remain the same.

[Regfan]

There's no such thing as

too scummy to be town

since scumminess does not have an absolute value.

What you're effectively saying is this:
There's 10 balls in a hat, 3 of them are yellow. Everyone picks out a ball.
If there's lots of people holding bright colours, I'm less likely to hold a bright colour.

Cut: Think you understand but I'll keep this just incase you don't.

[Regfan]

Catching up on multiple of my other games today, shall have a post in this by the end of the day here.

[Regfan]

Alright, finally caught up with everything. This quoting business is an entire mess though, so I'll refrain from quotting everything.

@CKD, I found you scummy before and after the ISO. The ISO was done with intent to see if I felt the same way afterwards, and if so to be a partial-case against you. Thanks for finally providing the reasoning I was after, you only needed to state that Volkon voting a VI was the issue with it, not stating the reasoning behind why something is a bad vote leads to benefit for the town.

@CKD, I never said you attempted to buddy Yura, you're taking things outside of their context, I said mafia would defend a player for two reasons and then stated what they are. You're attempting to poke holes into an irrelevant statement.

@CKD, I don't believe I ever said you were on the site at the time of the actual lynch. You did however post just before twilight had occured meaning you were there so denying or discussing that is futile. It's scummy because you witheld your opinion on his allignment at the end, though I will re-read into this more later when I have time.

@CKD, In response to my thoughts about Vig in the setup, have I thought about who the vig is? Yes. Will I state who I think the vig is? No. You attempt to state that I'm tunneling 'soley' on you, when the truth is I've been in multiple discussions with/about Yura/Bgg, if I were tunnelling I would be merely pushing your lynch rather then considering other suspects.

@CKD, Yes I noticed from checking other games that you have a pattern of stating a promise to catch up in the next 24 hour post, then a catching up wall post, then afk'ing for 1-2 days and repeat thus inactivity is a null-tell in regards to you. I don't have any other accounts here, though out of curiosity who do I remind you of?

Maxous: It's just that Yura's latest posts about CKD was so blatently making thoughts and opinions up as she goes along, I'm not giving her the benefit of the doubt anymore. I don't see why a town would just make stuff up like that. She completely forgot her suspicion and vote on Bgg.

Isn't it highly evident from Yuras posts that she's obv newbscum/newbtown and either one would fit the defintion of forgetting their FoS's and sheeping other lynches. I don't mean to say that just because Yura is a newb that they shouldn't be lynched, but surely that's very poor reasoning to vote Yura over your two stronger FoS's.

Maxous: iI don't feel I was too indecisive in this game (just plain wrong lol) but here's a game of me as town if you want.
I only played two games as town on this site and the other one was really short - over by page 8 or somthing I think :O

Then what led you to say that you're indecisive as town?

Suprise: We have been getting mad at players in this game for refusal to give opinions. I'd find it far easier to believe he is just attempting to avoid looking like he's refusing as well by only commenting on the most immediate situation.

If he's attempting to please us via posting an opinion on something do you read that as a town/scum/null-tell?

@S_C, can you explain your reasoning behind thinking Bgg is just misguided/illogical town please?
@Voltron, with the exception of Yura and BGG do you have any other scum-reads in the game, do you have any townreads in the game?
@Yura, do you think Voltron/Subgenius are town or mafia?
@Andrew, if you had to say two people in the game are town for sure right now, who would they be and why?

Even though I still think CKD is mafia, for now I'm going to

Unvote

until I get some more responses.

[Regfan]

Secondly, I'm going to do something completely dumb and tell you that that second question is tantamount to fishing for a roleclaim.

Which question is the second one, and can you elaborate on what you mean please?

Andrew, I understand what you mean but to catch up from page 14 to 21 in one day means your response would involve a lot of repeating of your opinions or thoughts, thus I don't see it as a scum-tell.

[Regfan]

Andew, can you link me to 2-3 games where you've been mafia please.

[Regfan]

Just finished briefly reading Andrews scum games, his playstyle in them is almost identical to that of this game. For anyone else interested in reading them, they are:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 74&start=0
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=15612
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 86&start=0

Vote: Andrew94

[Regfan]

@regfan, i am wondering why you are picking games that are far apart (im sure i have some scum games in betwen those). are you selectively picking?

These were the only scum games I could find that you were in excluding games that were with verified cheaters. If you do indeed have more can you post them.

Did you read his town games too? I'm not a huge fan of meta cases in the first place, but I'm even less persuaded when someone only links to three games with no indication that he's compared the player's scum games and town games. How is his town play and scum play different and where do you see him displaying his scum tendencies in this game?

I find as mafia he spends a larger period of the game defending his actions, whereas when he's town he's completly open to throwing mud onto anyone he FoS's without defending himself as much, I'll point out some exact examples later today when I get the chance, but I'd recommend you spectate the games I linked and compare with that of this game as well.

@S_C, you've essentially soft-claimed that you have information that leads you to believe/know that Bgg is town, if so can you please out it otherwise we could just be wasting time focusing on a lynch/vote that will never progress.

@Everyone, who would you vote right now if you had to vote someone other then bgg.

Cut by S_C. No you haven't expressed WHY you think he's town, just stated you think he's scummy-town.

[Regfan]

Excuse the double post, I haven't done this for a while due to discussion revolving around certain players and us going in circles, but I feel the need to get my thoughts/reads down so I have something to work with.

Town Reads

Surprise_Carcinogen, I find his play and his defence of Bgg to be a town-tell, I also find majority of his posts to be beneficial to the town.
subgenius, similar to S_C his posts have had substancial content and I find it hard seeing anything in particular that he's done that's scummy.

Null Reads

Maxous

, gone back and forth on him and ended up at null. I'll read into him later.

vollkan

, has posted the most logical points in the game by far but at the same time I find it impossible to attain a read on him, nothing he's done has screamed town or scum.

Truant

, had lurked/been away until recently, no real read on him, will re-read into him later today as well.

yura-chi,

I honeslty don't know whether to read him as dumb mafia or dumb town, it's quite frustrating actually.

Mafia Reads

Andrew94

, strongest mafia read I have thus far, posts have been defensive without any real content posts from him.

curiouskarmadog

, although he's explained a lot of reasoning behind his actions and I certaintly do suspect him a great deal less than before he's still a minor scumread I hold.

bgg1996

, leaning mafia on him he's constantly posting illogical comments and attempting to cover his poor reasoning with a rug until called out for it. This read my change depending on what S_C has to say.

[Regfan]

Sorry if you've explained this in an earlier post, but why do you think it's a towntell?

The way that the defence has gone about, it seems that S_C is attempting to direct scum-hunting to a place where he deems more effective. ScumS_C would have no problem with TownBgg being interogated and questioned meaning I don't believe SC is mafia if Bgg is town. Reading their interactions also makes me highly doubt that ScumS_C and ScumBgg are the case, I'll provide specific examples later, but in other words I don't see any real scum-motivation from SCC's play as of recent (Especially in regards to the soft-claim).

Why is sub town and I am null when you don't seem to find anything scummy about either of us?

Your playstyle is one that holds logic above all else and while it's one that I respect greatly it's one that I believe can easily be faked as mafia. You read players actions as either:

1) Revealing to their allignment thus a scum-tell deserving points.
2) Irrelevant to their allignment thus adding nothing to your reads.

The fact that you do this means you can classify and explain the reasoning behind your reads due to just pointing to the posts in which you believe 1) was the case. Therefore I don't believe that logic is a town-tell for you in any right, in fact I'd like it if you could link me to a few of your mafia games.

[Regfan]

@Volkan, the difference between Sub and yourself is that Sub takes strong stances on a wider deal of matters, where you attempt to look past those believing their null, it means that it's harder to see your true motivations while I've seen his and find them to be perfectly reasonable.

@Bgg, speculating in relation to why a certain player died and who is likely to kill them is no basis for a case at all, especially not a sole-basis as is your one on Andrew.

@S_C, I've stated this twice already, you essentially a soft-claimed quite hard (I understand the irony in that) that you were a PR with information that would lead you to believe Bgg is town. Odds are if you're town which I believe you are, that softclaim will cause you to die tonight meaning it's highly beneficial just to state the information you have, especially considering Bgg is on a lot of peoples suspect lists.

I understand the case against Traunt but I'll need to ISO him myself before taking a real stand, as for now I find his lack of contribution slightly scummy. The day certaintly is starting to wind down, and we need to start deciding upon a lynch target quite soon otherwise we're going to be panicking on the final day. As for the current moment, the people I'm comfortable lynching include;
-Andrew94
-CKD
With the possibly of Traunt/Bgg depending on a re-read of them and S_C's response.

[Regfan]

And part of the reason I unvoted bgg was in the hopes that you wouldn't make a post like this.
I really don't see how you can put yourself more at risk than you already are right now.

He can't, thus why him flat-out claiming right now is the best way to progress.

Some of what I've noticed upon re-reading Andrew:

Post #315. He states what was 'confusing' about Magnetic was that he claimed weak doc with normal doc explanation. However he came back and said he was going to defend Magnetic after he was hammered. Why would he state he was going to defend Magnetic when he was 'confused' as to why their claim doesn't add up to their claim description?

Post #387. Blatant lie, at that point all he had stated a read on was Subgenius, S_C and Ckd. His read on Subgenius went from pro-town to FoS on him without any reasoning as well.

[Regfan]

Volkan, I believe that it's highly likely that his death will happen regardless of how much more he claims or not, that being said him claiming gives us some bearing to work from in regards to information to further our reads in regards to S_C and Bgg, a hint towards setup speculation and a chance towards a possible counter-claim thus a better idea of where to lynch. Though I can also see the slight upside in him not revealing it at the moment.

I wouldn't say I think Yura is town, the problem is I find a lot of his posts to be null due to his experience, if you can convince me otherwise I'd be happy to change. At the same time, I don't believe we would gain a great deal of information from a Yura flip apart from his allignment, whereas I believe an Andrew lynch will certaintly give us more direction.

[Regfan]

@CKD, I do indeed believe that comment was an attempt to seem like you were scum-hunting, the act of questioning someones vote may not be scummy, but the way you went around it didn't seem geninue. I checked the dates/times it wasn't as close to twilight as I remembered, however you posted after he was put towards L-1 with a lack of real thoughts about his lynch. If he flipped scum, this point would have changed for sure, to what degree I don't know. Your actions seem more as if you were attempting to stay of an impending town lynch than anything else. Ignore the thing related to a previous account, it can be dealt with later.

@Bgg, the points/posts you've made that I believed were illogical are:
This - Suggesting this given the information we had was completly illogical.
This - Mafia hammering on themsleves is bett ... 74479]This - Defending of the idea that any pressure vote even if stated as a pressure vote still holds pressure is fail logic.
This - Attempting to state people are tunneling just for having a FoS.
This - Bringing up how you should never give in to a lynch to attempt to defend your scummy behavior.
This and This- Trying to state there's a difference in likelyhood of who's town and who's mafia due to one persons actions.
This - Attempting to push a lynch soley on the basis of a nightkill speculation.

[Regfan]

@Bgg, I'm not going to go over and point out how each of those points are illogical, because I've done so as have others in the past. As well as the fact that if S_C says he has information leading him to know you're town means there's no reason to waste time discussing things that will later be proved irrelevant.

@Volkan, I know the priority is lynching scum, I've never said otherwise. At the same time, I do understand your case and arguments as to why Yura is mafia but from re-reading his posts I don't know if I agree, I can see him being newbscum and newbtown wheras my scumread on Andrew is much stronger.

@S_C that's horrible logic, you're essentially saying 'Lynch Yura before someone can replace him who might actually bring up better points!'.

[Regfan]

Yeah, we're not lynching Yura before she gets replaced, any new replacement is good for us especially when the case against Yura isn't something I agree wholeheartly with. We've said this already however you're attempting to turn this Yura lynch into a BW.

On top of that, stating Traunts replacement can catch up during the night instead of the day has got to be one of the worst ideas I've heard, what if mafia shoot the replacement tonight? Then we lose information they could have given us, replacements are more useful then players currently in the game as we all have some formed decisions in relation to peoples allignments and see their actions in a skewed angle. Whereas a replacee shows us everything under a fresh set of eyes.

Unvote, Vote: Maxous

[Regfan]

Not too much more can be done until the replacee reads through the game and states his thoughts. Bgg, we've gone over this already THIS game, there's no point to a pressure vote if you're going to openly state it's a pressure vote when you do it. The amount of pressure that will be created are zilch, and if you have fear he might be quicklynched then there is risk involved in placing it, so why do so?

[Regfan]

Wow. A lot to catch up, glad to see two new replacements, welcome Haylen and CryMe!

Wait? You’re unvoting a player who reacted so badly to being voted that he claimed his role?

Indeed, the vote was intially meant as a pressure vote and although his reaction was incredibly scummy I had no intention of lynching anyone at that point regardless if they lied or not.

Non-sequitor. They haven’t communicated much at all. You can’t consider Yura town just because she voted for Bgg, and that goes for any votes!.

If memory serves me correct this was if Magnetic flips mafia not Bgg, and Magnetic and Yura had plenty of interaction, seems you misread.

Andrew’s not providing content and is pretty much active lurking. It looks like he’s providing content, when he isn’t really.

Hit.Nail.Head.

Regfan: For the love of god, put spaces between @ and playername. It is really really annoying when people don’t do that. Also, you’re ignoring everything else Andrew has done and are only voting him because you’ve read his scum games. Then you don’t explain what about his play is scummy and similar in this game?

Congratulations on making another comment without properly reading, I'd stated I thought he was mafia on mulitple instances throughout the game for numerous reasons the reading of his scum games was just the final straw. His play-style as mafia is slightly hard to explain though if you read the games you'll understand what I mean.

How about, you could have asked her what her views and opinions were on other players in the game, asked her about situations? That’s lazy, if you don’t knpw what alignment someone is, then take steps to finding out! Or it shows you’re not really scumhunting.

Because Yura had answered previous questions asked at her in an allignment revealing manner, right?

I will be voting for either Andrew of Bgg depending on what my reread of the last few pages does.

Seems like you had a town-read on S_C at the time of this post, this should contradict with your scumread on Bgg if you had actually re-read you would notice S_C strongly soft-clamin that Bgg is town.

Also, to let it be known, I made my post well before I saw the replacement's wall of
text.

Um. So you clicked to submit, saw a massive wall of text cut your post submitting and you didn't think to read it before clicking submit again?
@ CryMeARiver, so you've laid down a vote without even making a dent in the re-read? What.....

4) Scummy /=/ Scum : Bgg was scumMY because of that post, that doesn't necessarily automatically make him scum. Nowhere did I say he is automatically scum.

Contradiction ahoy! You voted him, voting him is done because you think he's mafia not because you think he's scummy but unsure on his allignment.

I don't think Andrew is mafia.

If I had to lynch somebody right now, it would most definitely be andrew.

.........So you're more certain that A) There's a SK in the game and B) That Andrew is the SK then you are in suspecting anyone else int he room?

In regards to who I am currently fine lynching: Maxomus, Andrew and CMAR. I'm still unsure what I think of the Haylen slot.

[Regfan]

To be blunt, I'm not feeling sure about any of my reads at the moment and it's something that's making me less and less inclined to do anything. I'm going to do a mass re-read of the entire game to attempt to regain focus later today, if anyone has any questions or would like me to take particular notice over any specific points state so in the next few hours.

[Regfan]

My re-read failed miserably, I got to page 10 and then couldn't stop headdesking. I'm completly up to date on the recent occurances and I don't think it's possible for me to agree more with Subgenius's #795 post then I currently am. With that said I really want to hear Haylen/CryMe's final reads/thoughts of the game thus far, and they really need to speed up for this deadline.

@Ckd, I made my thoughts on Bggs pressure vote known, it really is stupid especially after it's been discussed earlier in the thread - With that said I maintain my town-read on S_C and that town-read leads Bgg to be town via relation.

Unvote, Vote: CryMe

[Regfan]

Unvote

There's a lot of new content today, I'll catch up and replace my vote either within the next few hours or when I get a chance to tommorow morning.

[Regfan]

We really really need to start organising our votes right now - 19 hours till the deadline means we should have a decided lynch in the next few hours to allow time for a claim and a counter-claim if there is one.

Although Haylen is closer to being lynched at the current moment - I much prefer an Andrew lynch over a Haylen one. If Andrew is town he's not going to benefit us whatsoever, if Haylen is town she will. With that said the reasoning behind my vote has nothing to do with skill level of the players but the fact andrew has been consistently avoiding any damning questions or advances asking him to post real content.

Vote: Andrew

[Regfan]

With that said the reasoning behind my vote has nothing to do with skill level of the players but the fact andrew has been consistently avoiding any damning questions or advances asking him to post real content.

[Regfan]

I believe I stated earlier - I went through his previous games and avoiding of question is something he does as scum and much less often as town, I view it as an incredibly strong scum-tell in this game.

That couped with the fact I didn't have a particular scum read on Yuras earlier play (I read it as allignment neutral) leads me to prefer an Andrew lynch over any other.

[Regfan]

Haylen - Simple, the longer you and Andrew claim before the deadline the less chaotic last minute scramble of votes will be.

Lets assume that Andrew somehow is town, and that he claims a role that would be idiotic to lynch, it's much safer to have an alternate claim up at that time rather then to be lynching blindly.

[Regfan]

Haylen - You're going to have to excuse my lack of knowledge when it comes to roles in mini-games but I'm not exactly understanding what reason there would be behind you witholdhing using the ability given the current situation. If I do understand your role correctly you have the ability to essentially block the scums kill and pick your own - Is this confirmable to any extent?

Volkan - Does your unvote mean you believe her claim and thus she's town - Or does it lead you to just want to postpone a decision?

[Regfan]

@ Mod, is the lynched player allowed to continue talking in this period as well?

@ Everyone - I shall in all likelyhood be online from now until the deadline doing an assignment. I'll be checking the thread frequently and although I really would love to do a massive re-read I don't think I'll have the patience for it. If you think there's anything specific I should read into let me know.

[Regfan]

@ Everyone, have you ever heard or seen of the role that Haylens claimed in a past game? Personally prior to the claim I didn't have a strong or any read on that slot but I'm starting to doubt the idea of a weak doctor and a director in the same game.

@ Subgenius, I'll read into that case in an hour or so, what's your thoughts on Andrew at the moment though?

[Regfan]

@ Maxous, they don't clash in that strong a respect, but I was told long ago that generally there's one 'unusual' role maximum in a mini such as this, with both of those roles that's 2 and that's not even counting the possibilty there may be more unusual role claims throughout the game.

@ Bgg, what do you expect an 'experienced player' to claim as mafia in this sort of situation?

[Regfan]

I'll go ahead and summarize my case on CMAR.

From Truant:
1)The fact that he ignored the presumed mafia kill in favor of analyzing the SK kill was a scum slip, IMO. He claimed to place a lot of faith in NK analysis, but only applied it to the only victim that mafia would be interested in analyzing. Truant ISO 6
2)After voting for Yura by assuming he knew the motivations for one NK, he unvotes her when he realizes that applying the same logic to the 2nd NK would also point back to Yura. Rather than strengthening his convictions, this caused him to unvote.Truant ISO 8
3)The rest of his posts were basically active lurking until he replaced out.
From CMAR:
1)Vote for bgg based on one post without seeming interested when people suggested that there was reason to believe he might be clear.
2)Dramatic change of mind accompanied with AtE when he couldn't keep the vote up anymore.
3)He's been in the game for over a week, and I know more about his reading list and college application process than I do about his fos's.

From Truant:
1) Is a minor scum-tell, I've seen so many townies speculating excessive amounts of information in relation to the night-kill therefore that's null. Though him being selective in choice of what the kill reflects is off.
2) Actually, I can understand the logic behind unvoting there. If you believe A can lead someone to be B, then you find out A can also lead them to be C you begin questioning if the entire thing is heading down the path at all.
3) That's true, though Andrews has included far more active lurking.

From CMAR:
1) This I find to be a much larger scum-tell and still can't understand the thought process behind it.
2) Moreso a realization that the vote was getting bad reactions from everyone else which is something a town or mafia would factor in when replacing into a game and only being partially done a re-read. In other words, this is related to 1), not an extra scum-tell on top of it.
3) He just recently added some more meaningful content, but at the time you posted this I can see what you mean and where you're coming from.

[Regfan]

Unoffical VoteCount:

Haylen – 1 (Surprise_Carcinogen)
Andrew94 - 5 (curiouskarmadog, bgg1996, Haylen, Regfan, CryMeARiver)
CryMeARiver - 4 (vollkan, Maxous, subgenius, Andrew94)

Not sure if I agree with bggs argument against CryMe at all here, I'm going to re-read into it in the next few minutes though.

[Regfan]

Haylen has played quite well, yet her replacee was terrible newb scum. She tried to please the town in everything she did.

And newb-town wouldn't do this, why?

This is a very subjective judgment - I read Yuras play as newb-unrevealing allignment, you read it as newb-town, Volkan reads it as newb-scum. Arguing over this point and attempting to poke holes in CryMes thoughts due to it is stupid.

Mafia can risk losing one member. I think Haylen is the SK. If not, she is scum. I highly doubt that slot is a redirector.

Why can't she be a redirector?

This is effectively:
CryMe: I think shes mafia therefore not what her claim is to be
Bgg: Why isn't she her claim?!
Do you not understand the issue here Bgg, he's stated he thinks Haylens is mafia thefore any claim that Haylen makes would be seen as a claim from mafia - To attempt to question and attack this is bizarre.

Andrew. Andrew, andrew, andrew. You contribute to Magnetic's lynch with little reasoning (it was a reasonable lynch) and no contribution, you then say you find tclar to be "off".

....
.......
If I am not mistaken, he was one of the first ones to vote for magnetic, on his first post, because he had

claimed mafia roleblocker in a previous game

.
Would you not vote for somebody who did that?

He also came back and said he would have defended Magnetic = Andrew contradicting himself = What I Think CryMe is pointing out.

I have expressed previous suspicion of Bgg. Others have as well.

No reason to explain this.

I'm not discrediting whatever S_C says, but I still find Bgg incredibly scummy. But we're not lynching him for obvious reasons.

YES. YES, THERE IS.

Oh hey, I'm going to vote for you now. I don't need to explain why. Other people think you're scummy too.

CryMe is right here, there is no reason to go into this, your natural playstyle this game is scummy but due to the claim any time spent now discussing it is a waste.

[Regfan]

Maxous, he said it was PL not a RVS meaning he did think Magnetic was a liability and should be lynched.

Yes I think Bgg is town, I also think Bgg has been highly illogical at times and extremely scummy.

[Regfan]

@ Bgg.

1. There's a difference between someone saying something scummy and reading a newbs actions as scummy or not. Though nice misrep of what I was saying.

2. He DID say he thinks shes mafia him saying he also thinks shes not her claim means he doesn't think shes a mafia redirector instead an alternate mafia role.

3. Not understanding this at all - Reexplain.

4. S_C's claim doesn't automatically clear you, not until we find out what it is. For example cop could have an innocent on you but SK comes up as innoncent. /End.

[Regfan]

To state that you've been highly illogical is the truth - I've pointed out specific instances, it's not an attempt to insult your intelligence just a fact that needs to be mentioned to make my read of you understood.

[Regfan]

Maxous - I did and to a degree do still think River is mafia, just not to the extremity that I did in the past. It's less so defending River and moreso pointing out horrible arguments that are being made in an attempt to last minute assure Rivers lynch over Andrew for no logical reason.

His most recent posts have shown geninue content and logic that I can understand. With that said if this comes down to the time-deadline I would have no issue changing to River.

[Regfan]

1. Bgg, there's a difference between scummy and newb-town or newb-mafia, jesus christ. I shouldn't even be needing to explain this - Example: I find you very scummy yet I think you're town therefore I think you're scummytown, someone else might see how scummy you are and think you're scummymafia. Understanding yet?

2. He DID say that he thought Haylen was scum, that's what a large part of his content consists of, you're streching here.

3. I think we're discussing different situations here - I'm not discussing or mentioning Tcl at all, just Andrews reaction to Magnetic.

4. If I had any intent on pushing for your lynch in the future I would have been vague towards my read on you which I haven't - I've very clearly stated I think you're town.

[Regfan]

Sure - It's my opinion then, you're getting hurt when I state it, if you seriously feel offended by someone pointing out poor play by you then you shouldn't be playing this game.

'Lucidrous exuses for arguments', you crack me up, you really do.

[Regfan]

LOL

[Regfan]

If you weren't being hurt over it you wouldn't have size 100 lines asking me to stop.

I'm here, I'm waiting to listen to reason and I've been waiting a long long time. Address points 1-4. I await your post.

[Regfan]

To address point 2 in further depth:

"Haylen has played quite well, yet her replacee was terrible newb scum" - Essentially saying the slot is mafia
"I think Haylen is the SK. If not, she is scum." - He thinks the slot is mafia/SK
"I highly doubt that slot is a redirector." - He thinks shes lying about her role thus mafia, he doesn't think shes a mafia director either.

[Regfan]

1. Yes, everyone has different opinions of what scummy is and means - thus why I mentioned it's a subjective judgement. I personally believe scummy is a tell generally associated with mafia but it can very easily be done so by town. Point done.

[Regfan]

The difference is that people can easily have a difference of opinion when it comes to reading newbscum from newbtown. I think everyone here has agreed that Yura was scummy to a massive degree, however far less of us think that he was newbmafia. You asked CryMe why newbtown wouldn't do what he believes newbscum did.

That's the issue, I thought I made this clear. There's two ways to read Yuras actions, you read it one way he read it the other it seems - You clash, yes but there's going to be no way for him to convince you to change your opinion to his. Therefore involving and adding this in the 'attack' or case against CryMe was horrid to say the least.

S_C, there's no other relevant discussion to be had when no one else is here this close to the deadline.

[Regfan]

You sure it's not an hour and 15 minutes? I thought it was.

[Regfan]

I just checked, both are at L-1.

[Regfan]

Andrews online but avoiding posting here it seems. Wait a few minutes. CryMe, get in here and claim.

[Regfan]

The only person who has the ability to hammer Andrew is S_C at the moment.

[Regfan]

Thank you, I was going to change at 59 past if no one did. We're still allowed to discuss several hours after this lynch - Correct?

S_C do you have the ablitiy to attain another clearance tonight?

[Regfan]

If we have a protective role they should be on S_C tonight then. Haylen - I suggest you use your one shot redirector tonight.

With that said my reads at the moment would be:

Mafia - From strongest to weakest
Andrew.
CryMe.
CKD.
Maxomus.

Null
Volkan.
Haylen.

Town - From strongest to weakest
Bgg.
S_C.
Subgenius.

Don't think he's allowed to talk - Don't ask him to the worst possible thing now is one of us gets mod-killed for asking him to converse. (Correct me if I'm wrong about that though)

[Regfan]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2943004

[Regfan]

I doubt we will to an extent, Andrew spoke before anything was directed to him.

[Regfan]

I can understand the benefits behind a no lynch in this situation generally but when it just leads to a confirmed clear dying it really is idiotic. On top of that, I believe I understand the mechanics behind Haylens role now but this refrainment from using it is bizarre, it really is. With 9 alive last night and two confirmed clear essentially as well as ruling herself out that would allow a 1/6 chance of redirecting the kill onto a mafia. With reads and whatnot added to that she should be able to get it to around a 30-50% success rate which is certaintly worth use of it considering there's intense pressure towards her seemingly upcoming lynch. Doing so would lead towards:

1) Have a decent shot at turning the bullet and killing a mafia.
2) Preventing S_C for dying allowing another investigation
3) Self-confirming herself as a townie removing the highly likelyhood of her getting lynched.

In other words, her denial to use her powers don't seem to have much town-motivation behind them - And she would actually be my biggest suspect at the moment (Not due to Yuras actions but her own). With that said I do think too much focus has lay around the slots that the replacements filled with not enough revolving around other players, noticably: Ckd, Volkan and Maxomus so I would hope that the progression of this day would reveal more information about them.

Although some hate setup speculation I feel it's needed here. With 13 players, has there ever been SK+3 mafia in a past mini because from intial view that seems unbalanced, so in all likelyhood there's two mafia and we have a mslynch.

[Regfan]

Wow. I really can never get a hang of this switching accounts buisness. The above post is obviously mine.

[Regfan]

Subgenius - Oh wow. I've actually spectated that entire game in the past - Barry linked it to me when he finished it, I just didn't realize it was a Mini.

The idea of speculating over Andrews lynch only holds any ground if the opposing wagon was mafia and this wagon was pushed in an attempt to prevent one of their own getting lynched. If both running lynches were town/sk it's entirely possible that there are no mafia on the Andrew lynch. Therefore I see no point in speculating over the list of players on the Andrew lynch unless you've got a definitive read on the alternate wagons.

CuriousKarmaDog - I honestly believe that almost everyone alive has focused a little more attention than needed towards the slots, though if I had to be more specific I would say noticably Volkan and Subgenius.

Maxous - Don't mind if I do:
1) Do you have any thoughts in regards to the activity or lack thereof at the conclusion of yesterdays lynch?
2)Do you feel anyone in particular attempted to avoid the thread or us from reaching a general conclusion of who to lynch?
3)Given that the focus has drifted towards Volkan in some regard, do you think the attention towards him is warranted?

[Regfan]

Volkan - I understand that NL'ing would allow validation and confirmation of Bgg's role, but is that really needed? On top of that you're ignoring and forgetting multiple other cons that are caused by a no lynch.

Right now, do you believe he's mafia? If we NL and he wasn't killed would you lynch him? If the answer to both of those questions is no then there is nothing really gained from a no lynch, whereas there are downsides, I shall list them if you want, NL'ing leads to:

1) Removal of Bggs opinion.
2) Allowance of mafia to have extra time to converse and plot possible ways to progress.
3) Removal of the ability for us to place votes to gauge reactions due to it leading to a potential lylo.
4) Addition of extra night activity leading to some players losing interest in the game and not performing as well.

[Regfan]

Bgg -I think the score was actually 5-1 my way. (Not like I was counting or anything though).
You suggested wanting to discuss outside of the replacement slots, do you have anyone in particular in mind?

[Regfan]

Bgg - If you feel like arguing and discussion for the sake of it I'm game.

First Argument: Essentially what I'm saying is everyone is going to read and understand noobtown and noobscum actions to be very different things because it's highly situation and experience related based. Therefore once someone has stated they have a conflicting read on a noobs actions there's not much point in attempting to challenge and change their read of it.

Second Argument: There's two parts to this: The first being if you strongly believe someone is mafia their claim shouldn't change your opinion in relation to your read on them, therefore he believed she was mafia before hand, she claimed he still beleived shes mafia. The second part of this is, the role in particular, a lot of roles have town and mafia variants such as town rolecop or mafia rolecop, I read his disbelief of her claim to be that he doesn't believe shes roledirector of either allignment.

Third Argument: Still not exactly sure how to argue or discuss this nor exactly what it is.

Fourth Argument: He didn't withold reasons of why he beleived you were scum - Remember he did place an early vote against you showing pure intent and belief that you were scummy. So yes, even though there was an innocent on you him believing you were mafia isn't out of this world.

Fifth Argument: LOL. The pressure vote wasn't the cause of him posting much more content not even close to, if you read through there was obvious pressure put onto him from multiple members of this player-list on top of that if there was no content proved from him he would be placed under a microscope regardless of allignment. So yes, the pressure vote was and is essentially useless when you said that was the purpose and intent behind it.

In regards to where you "Covered them under a rug" I can't remember them of the top of my head but I will look through your previous posts and state what gave me that impression when I get home from university.

[Regfan]

Subgenius - I agree, but it beats listening to my Marketing Lecture. With that said - Do you currently have any town-reads, and if so can you explain reasoning to back them up?

[Regfan]

Addressing your cons, the short answer is that I don't think any of them are sufficient to override the above.

To address each individually:
1) We already have bgg's opinion on everything that has transpired so far. His semi-confirmed status means his opinions are probably genuine, but that's really the end of it. Remember: NL always deprives the town of one townie's perspective, but it's still almost uniformly accepted as the best move in MYLO. I may be speaking only for myself here, but I can't conceive of any situation in which, despite his semi-confirmed status, I would trust bgg's judgment over my own.
2) I accept that this is a con; but I don't think night discussion is likely to be sufficiently influential on the day game to override the pros
3) As somebody who has designed a playstyle that pre-commits my vote, I take a particularly dim view of the value of reaction-gauging, let alone so late in a game.
4) Seriously? Given that a Happily Ever After cycle is exceptionally unlikely, the timeframe you are talking about is most likely only the length of a single night phase. I'd be amazed if anybody would lose touch with the game in that time.

1) Completely understandable.
2) I think night discussion plays a bigger part then you're giving it credit for but aruguing over this is trival.
3) I can understand where you're coming from given your play-style but I'm a big fan of reaction testing and pressure voting in certain scenarios so we're going to have to agree to disagree with this con.
4) I've seen far too many games end in mafia wins purely due to the fact that town nl'ing too often when they shouldn't have.

I'm thinking Subgenius and Vollkan scumteam. I don't know what to think about whether there's a third mafia because 1 SK and 3 Mafia in a 13 player setup seems a bit heavy to me. And oh hey, if it is mylo/lylo, they're going for the easy target.

Unless I'm mistaken you haven't showed any signs of suspicion against either of these two up until this post, yet in this post you show strength in the FoS. Can you explain what changed exactly to make you drop your previous FoS's and take up this one.

Why are we blaming Carcin's death on me? Blame it on himself for outting himself so early. To prevent his death, all he needed to do was keep his mouth shut. What I would have needed to have done was correctly guess who is mafia and which of them was going to do the kill. Unfortunately, I cannot catch scum on my own. I thought I'd said previously that my town play is awful but least I'm trying.

The death in itself isn't your fault, nor is it S_C's his claim prevented a msylnch occuring on Bgg, what bothers me is that you didn't seem to 'think through' the benefits of using your power last night.

I'm not undestanding the possible specutlation and paranoia over Bgg, even if there's a godfather in the setup Bgg's play doesn't represent that of a general godfather play. In addition to that his eagerness to see the result of the previous nights kill reads as a massive town-tell in it's ownright. If he was mafia he would know what role S_C was and that S_C would be dying thus having no reason to stay up anticipating the result. Due to the fact my primary FoS throughout the game is dead, I'm going to have to do some re-reading none of my current reads are strong in any right though I may as well lay them out.

Bgg - Town

.

Maxous - Leaningtown:

My read on him seems to be flip-flopping throughout the game, though the only thing I've seen him do that I find suspicious is place the vote on CMAR during the middle of yesterday.

Sub_genius - Leaningtown:

His play has been consistently pro-town, that along with the fact he's shown no real signs of fencesitting or opportunistic scum play makes me believe he's town.

Volkan - Null:

Still unable to find anything in particular that sways my view of his allignment.

Haylen - Uh:

I'm not even going to attempt to state a read for her now, Ive been flip flopping opinion with nearly every post she makes, I'll ISO and read into her later today and state my thoughts then.

curiouskarmadog: SlightLeaningScum:

I can't shake my earlier opinion of him, with that said since then all of his post have been very constructive and I'm unable to find fault in them.

CryMeARiver - LeaningScum:

I haven't found any real pro-town motives from any of his posts nor from his predecessors, with that said I'll await his 'big incoming post'.

[Regfan]

Although I can understand the angle that CKD is coming from, I don't agree there hasn't really been much opportunity for Volkan to get shot if he were town meaning the 'He's alive thus likely to be mafia' concept is meaningless.

I know that people strongly dislike night-kill speculation but I think at least something can be read from this games ones. I looked back at Pappumrats post now that we know mafia were the ones to shoot him, his suspicons were completly off-track considering the fact he FoS'ed, Tcl and S_C and none of his posts resembled any form of a power-role tell, I'm interested in hearing peoples thoughts on why he was shot?

[Regfan]

Why are you ignoring the fact that he voted Yura at the end of the day?

The vote was more out of frustration other than anything else, on top of that the were several players that stated suspicion towards Yura in a higher extent at that point, if the kill was purely based upon the concept of removing those who suspected Yura they would have died over Pappumsrat.

Haylen - You're still dodging going into why you believe Subgenuis and Volkan are mafia.

[Regfan]

Subgenius - My opinion is that mafia didn't view any of the townies alive as a threat whatsoever. I would generally think mafias biggest reasoning for avoiding shooting threats would be in fear of a doctor save, but considering a doctor was lynched day one the likelyhood of them believing there's a doctor is minimal so that excuse is ruled out.

Volkan - Does the fact that three players on your list still remain at their starting score lead towards their play being entirely null or just unreadable?

I actually find CryMe's claim far more believable than Haylens mostly due to the fact that CryMe's avoidance to claim at the end of yesterday makes it understandable that he's a PR. With that said, I'm unsure whether I'm comfortable lynching either of them at the current moment, I need to do more reading.

Considering we currently now have two power-role claims out loud and three dead power roles, does anyone see the possible advantage in mass-claiming right now? We need to reach a consensus in regards to lynching today or no lynching, I suggest everyone states their agreement/disagreement with mass-claiming and no lynching in their next post.

[Regfan]

I'm becoming increasingly frustrated with my inability to attain a strong read in this game, with that in mind I don't think NL would help us much at all. I honestly think MC and then lynching today is the only way to go.

[Regfan]

If you consider Haylen or CMAR dying at night a benefit then you would be wanting to lynch today, lynching today means that if CMAR or Haylen are town and are succesful we gain a mslynch from their actions and therefore are more detrimental to the mafia thus the mafia wanting to shoot them. From plain NL'ing today if their powers are succesful we would be put in almost the same situation again.

[Regfan]

NL means if any of Haylen or CMAR is legitimate and they do block a night kill at some point in the game, we will be at mylo again and not have an added mslynch.
Lynching today and if Haylen or CMAR is legitimate and do block a night kill we gain an added msylnch.

[Regfan]

Are you confident enough in Haylen's and CMAR's alignment and ability to correctly pick their targets to potentially leave the game in their hands if we mislynch?

In addition, you haven't even voted for anyone, so unless you're going to push for someone's lynch, arguing against a NL amounts to little more than idle chitchat since the way things are going now, we'll probably end up NL'ing at the deadline anyway. Who do you want to lynch?

I don't believe both are scum, so yes I'm confident enough that one is town and I believe their likelyhood to pick correctly is bettered by lynching today. I honestly am failing to see any real advantage towards a no lynch, so yesI am indeed confident enough to lynch today. In regards to my reads at the moment:

People I'm not comfortable lynching today:

vollkan - Null, haven't found anything allignment revealing by him, I can understand his push for a NL in some way because he doesn't trust Bggs judgement.
curiouskarmadog - Had a minor town-read on before he replaced out, Scottys intial posts solidify this read, not comfortable lynching today.
bgg1996 - Cop clear.
subgenius - Consistent town-read on him.

People I would consider lynching today:

Maxous - Null at the moment, he seems to be floating through, I'll need to do some more reading into him before making a final judgement
Haylen/CryMeARiver - One of these two are scum, that much I'm sure of, going to need to do some re-reading on them though but at the moment if I had to place a vote it would be on CMAR.

[Regfan]

Haylen - Correct me if mistaken but I believe we're still waiting for your reads on everyone in the game.

[Regfan]

Yes.
Just to catch you up to date, Bgg is the cops clear before he died. Haylen claimed a one shot redirected and we're all waiting on you to claim.

[Regfan]

Do you mind explaining why it took you 18 minutes to claim?

[Regfan]

I'm currently leaning Regfan since he has displayed the least suspicion of CMAR in the past. I think he said he would be willing to vote for CMAR at the end of Day 2, but other than that he was pretty ambivalent about the case against him. I've had a null tell on him for most of the game, but I have a bad feeling about this pseudo-wagon, and he's the one that sticks out the most to me.

This is a complete misrepresntation of the situation at hand, and something I expected much better from you. Lets take a look at the actual facts:

April 4th I vote for CryMe due to him being my strongest suspect at the time.
April 6th I state agreement and disagreement with portions of the case against CryMe
April 6th I state I still believe River is mafia, just not with as much strength as I did in the past, state I have no issue voting him at all.
April 6th I state reads from strongest to weakest with CryMe being the highest of any alive player.
April 13th I state my full list of reads with CryMe as my strongest mafia read.
April 21st I reaffirm confidence in a CryMe potential lynch.

[Regfan]

Volkan hit the nail on the head, though another thing to note is the actual players on the list:

Bgg - Has been strongly pushing a CMAR lynch throughout the game and still remains to be the cop clear. In what way is him pushing towards his preffered lynch untown?
SB - Only replaced in recently meaning the fact he states he's suspecting CMAR now is a null-tell due to the fact he wasn't here earlier to state an opinion on him.
Maxous - Had his vote on CMAR throughout the entirety of yesterday meaning his suspicion isn't 'new' nor is it related to other people suspecting CMAR at the current moment.

[Regfan]

Can you please link me to where you got that from. If that is indeed true then Haylen has to be mafia.

[Regfan]

Yes, the moderator panel have to approve the setup and only one "Unusual" role is allowed to be used in a setup, that unusual role has already died (Town Sledgehammer).

Vote: Haylen

[Regfan]

Haylen, link me to a mini game which includes one of these roles and then I'd consider unvoting:
Non-Sane Cops, Blanks/Quacks, Janitor, Survivor, Lyncher, Cultist, Jester, Scum Masons, Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, Redirector.

[Regfan]

You want me to search through every game on site to find that? Jeeze, talk about setting impossible aims. Ok, I'll do it. *shrugs*

There's a difference between leniancy and putting a role in the game which they strickly said cannot be in the game.

If you've suddenly become a normal boff, answer me this: If survivor is a non-normal role, then why is a person's role changed to Neutral Survivor when they have been modkilled?

No, but you said you have experience when it comes to mini-normals via hosting some.

Liking how people jumped on me for that without knowing how normal setups are reviewed lolz. So at least one of Bgg, Regfan and Scott are scum.

I'm going to carry on by saying that there is a difference in balance and normality between a One Shot role and a continuous role. Reviewers are more likely to be more lenient when the role is a one shot.

Also, are either of you a Hoopla alt?

Because when you become modkilled the mod wants to give you no possible chance to win the game, a dead survivor has no chance of winning the game.

[Regfan]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=16260 <-- scum masons/lovers. Scum was allowed to talk during the day.

I spectated that entire game, and it's not a mini normal. Nice try.

[Regfan]

It's a large normal. Same principles apply.

"# Closed Normal Games should satisfy the following rules: "

That game wasn't a closed Normal.

[Regfan]

If I'm not mistaken, Mini 851 had not only a cult leader, but also a vigilante, and serial killer. That's my cue to

unvote

. Coincidently, I believe Haylen was in that game. And won.

It was also over a year and a half ago.

[Regfan]

So likelyhood states the rules are much more recent then that.

I'll look into it, but I'm close to certain that the wiki is very updated on what is/isn't allowed in the game.

[Regfan]

Granted I am not familiar with the rules and requirememnts for this game but lynching somebody due to set-up speculation is not a good idea at all.(maybe open games but not normal ones).

It's not setup speculation it's pretty much black and white of what roles can be and can't be in the setup.

She explained why her role can be in the game, why should she be outraged and surprised if she moderated a game that had a couple of these 'unusual' or whatever roles?

No, she didn't. She attempted to link games that weren't mini normals to defend herself with.

[Regfan]

Found this: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 70&start=0
"Redirection roles are banned on the basis that it isn't a reasonable expectation for investigative roles to believe their results are actually on someone else, or that vigs could potentially kill someone they didn't mean to. Some people showed support for the possibility of redirected players knowing they've been directed elsewhere - but to me, that seems to completely undermine the point of redirection?"

[Regfan]

Welcome to Mini Normal 1140 - Mafia Mishmash.
Thanks to reviewers Hoopla, SpyreX and MichaelSableHeart and to whomever I borrowed and tweaked my rules from.

Hoopla reviewed this setup, therefore I see no possible way that Haylens role is in the game.

Hind, I suggest you finish your catch-up as soon as you can and then hammer.

[Regfan]

If there isn't a shred of doubt that I'm scum then why haven't I been lynched yet?

You haven't been lynched yet because I want Hind to state his reads before a lynch occurs.

We think they're trying to get us to use our one shot, doesn't we? My precious...

English please?

[Regfan]

Sorry, posted on the wrong account.

[Regfan]

I'm an idiot, I knew she was going to self-hammer and didn't unvote.

[Regfan]

This likely means that CMAR is indeed town, and Subs attack at those voting him means he's probably town as well. The manner in which it was pointed out as well leads me to believe that CKDs spot is town leaving:

-Maxous
-Volkan

Of those I'm most certain of Maxous being mafia.

[Regfan]

I'm going to need to do an extreme amount of re-reading.

I think Yuras interactions with players is probably the best place to start working out possible partners.

[Regfan]

Still doing some reading through.

What's everyones thoughts on a mass-claim today?

[Regfan]

Scum.

Confirmed Town

Unknown.

SK.

Regfan (Town)

Day 1 VCA

Votecount 1.1:

bgg1996

- 1 (subgenius)

tclawren

- 1 ( Truant)

Suprise_Carcinogen

- 2 (

Magnetic

, vollkan)

Regfan

- 1 (

Suprise_Carcinogen

)

Pappums rat

- 1 (

curiouskarmadog

)

Magnetic

– 1 (

Andrew

)

yura-chi

– 1 (

Pappums rat

)
Not voting: (Maxous,

Regfan

,

yura-chi

,

tclawren

,

bgg1996

)
Anaylsis: See nothing here. Votes are very split up.

Votecount 1.2:

bgg1996

- 1 (subgenius)

tclawren

- 1 ( Truant)

Suprise_Carcinogen

- 1 (

bgg1996

)

Pappums rat

- 1 (

curiouskarmadog

)

Magnetic

– 4 (

Andrew

,

yura-chi

,

tclawren

, vollkan) <-- L-3

yura-chi

– 3 (

Pappums rat

,

Magnetic

,

Suprise_Carcinogen

)
Not voting: (Maxous,

Regfan

)
Anaylsis: Non-town players are very quick on Magnetic, the rest of the mafia are holding of. Nothing here.
Votecount 1.3:

bgg1996

- 1 (subgenius)

Suprise_Carcinogen

- 1 (

bgg1996

)

Pappums rat

- 1 (

curiouskarmadog

)

Magnetic

– 6 (

Andrew

,

yura-chi

,

tclawren

, vollkan, Maxous, Truant) <-- L-1

yura-chi

– 2 (

Pappums rat

,

Magnetic

,)
Not voting: (

Regfan

,

Suprise_Carcinogen

)
Anaylsis: Quite a few players alive are now on Magnetic, however read nothing from that given Magnetics nature.
Votecount 1.4:

Suprise_Carcinogen

- 1 (

bgg1996

)
Maxous - 1 (

curiouskarmadog

)

Magnetic

– 7 (

Andrew

,

yura-chi

, vollkan, Maxous, Truant, subgenius,

Suprise_Carcinogen

)

yura-chi

– 2 (

Pappums rat

,

Magnetic

)
Not voting: (

Regfan

,

tclawren

Anaylsis: Everyone alive bar me was on that lynch, means nothing given his actions.

Overall Day One Anaylsis: Nothing gained from this. The rest is incoming, and a lot more is gained from it.

[Regfan]

Day 2 VCA Part 1/2.
Votecount 2.1:

curiouskarmadog

- 2 (

Regfan

,

yura-chi

)

yura-chi

– 2 (Truant,

Suprise_Carcinogen

)

bgg1996

- 1 (subgenius)

Suprise_Carcinogen

- 1 (

Andrew

)
Not voting: (subgenius,

bgg1996

,

curiouskarmadog

, vollkan, Maxous)
Anyalsis: Yura is quick to vote, as is Traunt on Yura. Given day ones actions I can see bussing be very possible here. Scumpoints to Traunt.

Votecount 2.2:

curiouskarmadog

- 2 (

Regfan

,

yura-chi

)

yura-chi

– 1 (vollkan)

bgg1996

- 1 (subgenius)

Suprise_Carcinogen

- 1 (

Andrew

)

Andrew

- 1 (

Suprise_Carcinogen

)

Regfan

- 1 (

curiouskarmadog

)
Not voting: (

bgg1996

, Truant, Maxous)
Anyalsis: Traunts off Yura now, that was quick. Volkan is now on him. More scumpoints to Traunt, seems like early bussing attempt which stopped when no one joined it.

Votecount 2.3:

curiouskarmadog

- 1 (

Regfan

)

yura-chi

– 1 (vollkan)

bgg1996

- 2 (subgenius,

yura-chi

)

Suprise_Carcinogen

- 1 (

Andrew

)

Andrew

- 1 (

Suprise_Carcinogen

)

Regfan

- 1 (

curiouskarmadog

)
Not voting: (

bgg1996

, Truant, Maxous)
Anyalsis: Volkan is still on Yura, townpoints to him. Yura has joined Sub on Bgg, don't think he'd follow his partner this quickly, town points to Sub.

Votecount 2.4:

curiouskarmadog

- 1 (

Regfan

)

yura-chi

– 1 (vollkan)

bgg1996

- 2 (subgenius,

yura-chi

)

Suprise_Carcinogen

- 1 (

Andrew

)

Andrew

- 1 (

Suprise_Carcinogen

)

Regfan

- 1 (

curiouskarmadog

)
Truant - 1 (Maxous)
Not voting: (

bgg1996

, Truant)
Anyalsis: Volkan is still on Yura, townpoints to him again. Nothing changed.

Votecount 2.5:

yura-chi

– 2 (vollkan, Maxous)

bgg1996

- 2 (subgenius,

yura-chi

)

Suprise_Carcinogen

- 1 (

Andrew

)

Andrew

- 2 (

Suprise_Carcinogen

,

Regfan

)
Not voting: (

bgg1996

, Truant,

curiouskarmadog

)
Anyalsis: Maxous has now joined Volkan on Yura. Unsure what to make of it.

Votecount 2.6:

yura-chi

– 2 (vollkan, Maxous)

bgg1996

- 3 (subgenius,

yura-chi

, Truant)

Suprise_Carcinogen

- 1 (

Andrew

)

Andrew

- 2 (

Suprise_Carcinogen

,

Regfan

)
Not voting: (

bgg1996

,

curiouskarmadog

)
Anyalsis: Traunt has now joined Sub and Yura on Bgg. His vote puts majority on Bgg as well. I don't think all three mafia would be voting together in a block in a position such as this. This rules out Sub+Traunt possibility.

Make sure to go back and read his reasoning

Votecount 2.7:

yura-chi

– 2 (vollkan,

curiouskarmadog

)

bgg1996

- 2 (

yura-chi

, Truant)

Suprise_Carcinogen

- 1 (

Andrew

)

Andrew

- 2 (

Suprise_Carcinogen

,

Regfan

)
Truant - 2 (subgenius, Maxous)
Not voting: (

bgg1996

)
Anyalsis: A lot has moved in this VC, Sub has changed from Yura to Traunt along with Maxous. Further proves that Sub/Traunt aren't a team. Traunt/Yura both still voting together.

Votecount 2.8:

yura-chi

– 2 (vollkan,

Suprise_Carcinogen

)

bgg1996

- 2 (

yura-chi

, Truant)

Suprise_Carcinogen

- 1 (

Andrew

)

Andrew

- 3 (

Regfan

,

bgg1996

,

curiouskarmadog

)
Truant - 2 (subgenius, Maxous)
Anaylsis: Nothing has changed. What's notable is taht Traunt/Yura haven't separated their votes yet.

Votecount 2.9:

yura-chi

– 2 (vollkan,

Suprise_Carcinogen

)

bgg1996

- 2 (

yura-chi

, Truant)

Andrew

- 3 (

Regfan

,

bgg1996

,

curiouskarmadog

)
Truant - 2 (subgenius, Maxous)

curiouskarmadog

- 1 (

Andrew

)
Anaylsis: No change.

Votecount 2.11:

yura-chi

– 3 (vollkan,

Suprise_Carcinogen

, Maxous)

bgg1996

- 2 (

yura-chi

, Truant)

Andrew

- 2 (

bgg1996

,

curiouskarmadog

)
Truant - 1 (subgenius)

curiouskarmadog

- 1 (

Andrew

)
Maxous - 1 (

Regfan

)[/spoiler]
Anaylsis: Maxous moves from Traunt to Yura now giving Yura majority.

[Regfan]

Day 2 Part 2 VCA

Votecount 2.12:

yura-chi

– 3 (vollkan,

Suprise_Carcinogen

, Maxous)

bgg1996

- 1 (

yura-chi

)

Andrew

- 2 (

bgg1996

,

curiouskarmadog

)
Truant - 1 (subgenius)

curiouskarmadog

- 1 (

Andrew

)
Maxous - 1 (

Regfan

)
Not voting: (CryMeARiver)
Anaylsis: Not much has changed.

Votecount 2.13:

yura-chi

– 3 (vollkan,

Suprise_Carcinogen

, Maxous)

bgg1996

- 1 (

yura-chi

)

Andrew

- 1 (

curiouskarmadog

)
CryMeARiver - 2 (subgenius,

bgg1996

)

curiouskarmadog

- 1 (

Andrew

)
Maxous - 1 (

Regfan

)
Not voting: (CryMeARiver)
Anaylsis: Not much has changed.

Votecount 2.14:

Haylen

– 3 (vollkan,

Suprise_Carcinogen

, Maxous)

bgg1996

- 1 (CryMeARiver)

Andrew

- 1 (

curiouskarmadog

)
CryMeARiver - 2 (subgenius,

bgg1996

)

curiouskarmadog

- 1 (

Andrew

)
Maxous - 1 (

Regfan

)
Not voting: (

Haylen

)
Anaylsis: Not much has changed.

Votecount 2.15:

Haylen

– 3 (vollkan,

Suprise_Carcinogen

, Maxous)

bgg1996

- 1 (CryMeARiver)

Andrew

- 2 (

curiouskarmadog

,

bgg1996

)
CryMeARiver - 1 (subgenius)

curiouskarmadog

- 1 (

Andrew

)
Maxous - 1 (

Regfan

)
Not voting: (

Haylen

)
Anaylsis: Not much has changed.

Votecount 2.16:

Haylen

– 3 (vollkan,

Suprise_Carcinogen

, Maxous)

bgg1996

- 1 (CryMeARiver)

Andrew

- 2 (

curiouskarmadog

,

bgg1996

)
CryMeARiver - 1 (subgenius)

curiouskarmadog

- 1 (

Andrew

)
Maxous - 1 (

Regfan

)
Not voting: (

Haylen

)
Anaylsis: Not much has changed.

Votecount 2.17:

Haylen

– 4 (vollkan,

Suprise_Carcinogen

, Maxous, subgenius)

Andrew

- 3 (

curiouskarmadog

,

bgg1996

,

Haylen

)
CryMeARiver - 1 (

Regfan

)

curiouskarmadog

- 1 (

Andrew

)
Anaylsis: Haylen has jumped onto Andrew to attempt to save herself, Sub puts the fourth vote on Haylen giving her majority town points for him (Read into his reasoning).

Votecount 2.18:

Haylen

– 4 (vollkan,

Suprise_Carcinogen

, Maxous, subgenius)

Andrew

- 3 (

curiouskarmadog

,

bgg1996

,

Haylen

)

curiouskarmadog

- 1 (

Andrew

)
Not voting: (CryMeARiver,

Regfan

)
Anaylsis: Not much has changed.

Votecount 2.19:

Haylen

– 2 (

Suprise_Carcinogen

, subgenius)

Andrew

- 4 (

curiouskarmadog

,

bgg1996

,

Haylen

,

Regfan

)

curiouskarmadog

- 1 (

Andrew

)
CryMeARiver - 2 (vollkan, Maxous)
Not voting: (CryMeARiver)
Anaylsis: Wow. Haylen wagon is being pulled apart here. Volkan and Maxous have both changed to CryMe, need to read into their reasoning but scum points to them both.

Votecount 2.20:

Haylen

– 1 (

Suprise_Carcinogen

)

Andrew

- 4 (

curiouskarmadog

,

bgg1996

,

Haylen

,

Regfan

)

curiouskarmadog

- 1 (

Andrew

)
CryMeARiver - 3 (vollkan, Maxous, subgenius)
Not voting: (CryMeARiver)
Anaylsis: Subgenius has noe moved away pulling all support for a Haylen lynch away apart from S_C. Need to read into this section more but certaintly points to scum in that move away.

Votecount 2.21:

Andrew

- 6 (

curiouskarmadog

,

bgg1996

,

Haylen

,

Regfan

, CryMeARiver,

Suprise_Carcinogen

)
CryMeARiver - 4 (vollkan, Maxous, subgenius,

Andrew

)
Anaylsis: All three unclears are voting the other unclear here. This is also a position where bussing would be stupid considering the amount of suspicion on Haylens spot already. I really don't see any of these votes being a buss.

Overall Day 2 anaylsis: CryMeARiver isn't mafia unless he's the last mafia in the game which I doubt given the power roles dead at the moment.

[Regfan]

Day 3 VCA

Votecount 3.1:
No Lynch - 1 (vollkan)
Not voting: (CryMeARiver,

curiouskarmadog

,

bgg1996

,

Haylen

,

Regfan

, Maxous, subgenius)
Anaylsis: Nothing gained.

Votecount 3.2:
vollkan - 1 (

curiouskarmadog

)
No Lynch - 1 (vollkan)
Not voting: (CryMeARiver,

bgg1996

,

Haylen

,

Regfan

, Maxous, subgenius)
Anaylsis: Nothing gained.

Votecount 3.3:
vollkan - 1 (

curiouskarmadog

)
CryMeARiver - 1 (subgenius)
No Lynch - 1 (vollkan)
Not voting: (CryMeARiver,

bgg1996

,

Haylen

,

Regfan

, Maxous)
Analysis: Nothing gained.

Votecount 3.4:
vollkan - 1 (

curiouskarmadog

)
CryMeARiver - 1 (subgenius)
No Lynch - 1 (vollkan)
Not voting: (CryMeARiver,

bgg1996

,

Haylen

,

Regfan

, Maxous)
Anaylsis: Nothing gained.

Votecount 3.5:
vollkan - 1 (

curiouskarmadog

)
CryMeARiver - 1 (subgenius)

curiouskarmadog

- 1 (

bgg1996

)
No Lynch - 1 (vollkan)
Not voting: (CryMeARiver,

Haylen

,

Regfan

, Maxous)
Analysis: Nothing gained.

Votecount 3.6:
CryMeARiver - 2 (subgenius,

Scott Brosius

)

Scott Brosius

- 1 (

bgg1996

)
No Lynch - 1 (vollkan)
Not voting: (CryMeARiver,

Haylen

,

Regfan

, Maxous)
Anaylsis: For a second lets assume that both CMAR and Sub were town, that would mean mafia are Maxous and Volkan meaning if they both voted CMAR the game would end.

Votecount 3.7:
Hinduragi - 2 (

Scott Brosius

, Maxous)

Scott Brosius

- 1 (

bgg1996

)
No Lynch - 1 (vollkan)
Not voting: (subgenius, Hinduragi,

Haylen

,

Regfan

)
Anaylsis: Oh, so look what happens Maxous votes Hind. Taking the chance at ending the game there I see. I'll need to read into this area more.

Votecount 3.8:
Hinduragi - 1 (Maxous)

Haylen

- 5 (

Scott Brosius

,

Regfan

, subgenius,

bgg1996

,

Haylen

)
No Lynch - 1 (vollkan)
Not voting: (Hinduragi)[/spoiler]
Anaylsis: Nothing gained.

Overall anaylsis: CMAR is town. Maxous is likely mafia with Volkan probably as his partner.

[Regfan]

I seen it once. A mafia had it though.

Does a weak doctor and a redirector clash somehow? I don't get it :/

I came across this. Maxous can you show me the link to the game where a mafia had the redirector ability?

[Regfan]

I need to read into Maxous a bit more but at the moment his claim seems to be adding up. Throughout a large portion of day two he had a degree of suspicion towards me which dissapeared on day three, explained via the clearance he got by checking me on night two.

Mass-claim is indeed optimal right here with Sub+Volkan starting of and then progressing to Maxous outing his final ability followed by Bgg and my claims.

[Regfan]

Has anyone ever seen a Joat in a mini-normal before out of curiosity?

It's a role that I've never encountered in any game before.

[Regfan]

Considering the fact that Scott led the charge against Haylen yesterday I see no real logical reason to save him.

On top of that, you're claiming to be Roleblocked. If there was a roleblocker they would have just roleblocked you and shot Bgg. Then you'd be forced to explain how he died and they would remove a clear.

On top of that, if you were roleblocked, you wouldn't have visited. This means if you were roleblocked Maxous would have no idea that you visited Scott, which he did.

Nothing about your claim and actions are adding up Hind.

[Regfan]

Way I see it, if Maxous is town then it's automatic win.

If he is legitimate then Maxous/Bgg/I are town meaning he roleblocks Volkan tonight. If a kill goes through Volkan becomes clear and Subgenius would be the last mafia, if no kill goes through we lynch Volkan and Subgeninus the following day.

Alternatively, if Hind is the last mafia it's literally impossible for him to win given the situation in which case he's just best of claiming outright.

[Regfan]

I'm slightly hesitant to hammer here, this is a position where mafia bussing causes them to lose due to Maxous being able to RB tonight yet Vollkan and Subgenius voted along so quickly. I need to do some thinking, something isn't adding up.

[Regfan]

Didn't realize that was a hammer, my bad.

I will say that I think mafia would have three members if town has doc, cop, JoAT, and sledgehammer. Anything less seems imbalanced in the town's favor.

My thoughts entirely.

[Regfan]

Unfortunatly I'm flooded with university work and keeping up with other games at the moment. I won't be ablt to do too much reading through of this thread for another two or three days.

[Regfan]

I am reading along and keeping my thoughts elsewhere for the time being, I'll post them tommorow evening.

[Regfan]

Volkan, I hate to say it but from re-reading I really haven't come across that strong a conclusion on either of their allignments, given your experience in this format of mafia likelyhood is I'm going to have to resort to following your opinion on the matter. If you were t o ask me my opinion before the claim would have occured it would have been that Maxous was mafia without a doubt, however there is some legitimacy to the timing of his claim as well as Hinds reaction towards it.

Things I've noticed from re-reading the thread though include:

1. ISO #37 by Maxous - Reads as a slight-town tell.

2. ISO #48 by Maxous - Adds up with him claiming to check me.

3. ISO #80 by Maxous - Maxous states confidence in the Hindu slot being scum, which brings up the question why track him if you're certain he's mafia.

4. The following two posts contradict. Post 1 states you account for worst case scenario, but if that were the case N3 you would be accounting for three mafia, therefore wouldn't you want to track the player 'likely to send in the kill' instead of someone you stated extreme confidence in being mafia?

Another reason I thought there was 2 mafia was because I caught Hinduragi performing the night kill.So I thought he performed the kill because there was no other mafia partner. I thought there was no other partner because if yourself or Subgenius was the mafia partner it would of made a lot more sense for either of you two to send in the kill.

I was always acting in case of the WCS of there being 3 mafia (hence myself pointing the finger at Vollkan as the third mafia

5. Maxous - Can you explain your thought process of not using an action N1, I can understand witholding from using a RB or tracking ability then but surely using a gun-check would be optimal. Especially on someone like Yura that you suspected and was bound to live through the night.

6. ISO #34 by Subgenius - Reads as a slight-town tell.

[Regfan]

I'll respond to everything else later but I need to ask this right now.

I mentioned quite a few times I thought CMAR was a mafia jailkeeper.

IF you did really believe this, and with you saying that you don't believe mafia can send in PR+Kill, then he would be guarenteed not to send in the kill. Meaning your result would be either:

1) Town JK Hind visiting the target he jailed.
2) Mafia JK Hind visiting the target he jailed.

Both of these would look the exact same to you tracking him, meaning if you believed he was indeed a JK what was gained out of tracking him?

[Regfan]

The scenario I was thinking of was:

Hinduragi would not jail and lie and said he did.
Hinduragi would jail somebody and lie about who he jailed.

What would he have to gain from doing either of these as scum? The answer is nothing, meaning he wouldn't have lied about who he targetted, therefore tracking him believing he would lie is absurd.

[Regfan]

Sorry, I have been following the thread, just having trouble making a decision.

Should have a more detailed post up tommorow evening sometime.

[Regfan]

This might sound strange but I just woke up a few minutes ago because I just realized something.

Maxous, there WAS a point where you believed the validity of Haylens claim, explain how you could possibly have considered the setup having:

-Town sledgehammer
-Town cop
-Town weakdoctor
-Town JOAT
-Town redirector?

[Regfan]

Sorry, posting my thoughts as they come.

Had you believed that was the case the setup would include 3-4 VTs with 5 town PR's.

[Regfan]

The only time he deviated from this was the time he saw a chance to get suspicion away from CMAR. (Scott noticed this and started to suspect Subgenius for it. This was actually all forgotten in the mist of busting Haylen and Scott's elimination afterwards. This is clearly the reason why Scott was killed over Bgg, Scott would'nt of forgotten that)

1.This is an incredibly awful point, because although he deviated for half a second he never showed intent to voting elsewhere, scum have no reason to stop 'bussing' their partner merely to poke elsewhere especially when they know the likelihood that their partner gets lynched is incredibly high.

If you guys are more willing to beleive that myself as mafia night killed the people more inclined to beleive me in LYLO, fake claimed a power role, argued against the set-up speculation reasoning during Haylen's lynch inviting the suspicion on me, cleared Regfan as a gambit on Day 3(him being a realistic mislynch), cleared Vollkan as a gambit(reducing the lynch options to myself and Subgenius), suggested there was only 2 mafia as a deliberate misleading town tell, gloated and suggested myself as bussing Hinduragi in a derisory way to pour cold water on it, and whatever else you guys think I gambited on - simply to create a motherlode of WIFOM to bring into a deliberate one vs one confrontation against a very pro-town looking player then you guys are over-complicating things here.

2A. This is just as bad an argument, you had already stated several times you beleived I was town before this position meaning 'not clearing me' wouldn't mean that you would be able to get me lynched at all.

2B. The second you claimed RB as your third power a player was going to be cleared regardless, sure you might argue that 'I wouldn't fake RB as it clears someone' but the fact of the matter is majority of other JOAT powers had already been taken via the deaths.

This is an incredibly tough spot, as much as I hate it, I have a horrible feeling that I'm going to end up voting wrong. Logic seems to be pointing towards it being a buss. Ugh, Volkan, what's running through your head right now?

[Regfan]

Deadline is in two days, in other words we need to come up with a decision quite soon becuase last thing I want is for this to go down to a three-way lylo.

With that said, I'm going to do a massive re-read through Maxous and Subgenius's arguments tommorow as I have the day off.

[Regfan]

Deadline is in five hours, and I'd rather end this today and not have it go to a three-way. Volkan, I've said it earlier and I still mean it I will defer to your judgement if you feel even slightly confident in either vote, until then I feel forced to stick with my inital thoughts, that being that Maxous's claim is indeed legitimate.

The main reason I believe his claim is legitimate is due to the fact that he DID indeed back of and halt all suspicion cast towards me on day three which doesn't exactly make sense from a mafia standpoint. That being that it was fairly obvious to them that CMAR's slot was going to get lynched at one point during the game and I was pushing Andrews lynch so strongly that it prevented CMAR's lynch going through on day two. I see no reason for mafia to close of a possible push for a msylnch in this scenario.

For him to be mafia, he would have had to have planned this fake claim on night two at which point CMAR and Haylen had already claimed power-roles. I'm very hesitant in believing that all three of the mafia planned to fake-claim power roles that early into the game thus:

Vote: Subgenius

[Regfan]

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.

Good game Vollkan, you played well just a frustrating way to lose.

[Regfan]

I learned a lot this game, and for the most part found it quite enjoyable. I'll have more thoughts later, still quite frustrated. I spend endless hours re-reading the Maxous and Subgenius all for nothing.

Havingfitz, you need to state what night resolution actions you're using in the ruleset in the future, I'll refrain from stating any other words for now.

[Regfan]

Question for the townies:

When you decided that I was confirmed town (whether you were alive at the time, or just reading along), was it because you didn't consider the prospect of me being Mafia RB, or was it because you assumed that, even if I was Mafia RB, my kill would have been blocked?

The reason I am asking is that if people are assuming that RBs don't cancel each other out (ie. they both RB each other, which would have caused my kill to also be RBed), then that's something that probably has to be explicitly required as part of the Normal Guidelines (or it needs to be made clear in the Guidelines that various possibilities are open). I don't think that the non-cancellation view is logically better than the cancellation view, but I do think that players need to know EXACTLY the way that night actions will resolve.

I actually considered the possibilty of you being a roleblocker as soon as the started becuase I had town reads on both of them, read through the rules multiple times, hunted through past threads and found nothing so I just assumed RB vs RB would mean no kill.

[Regfan]

As this was my first game modding, any comments directed my way are welcome.

Overall the game was well run and modded, the prods and deadlines were kept very organised as well the amazing amount of replacements you filled, thanks for that. I can understand that you didn't forsee a RB vs RB situation occuring due to the unlikelyhood that they would have targetted each other, especially considering the JOAT was a one-shot RB though I really do disagree with the kill still going through. The entire idea behind a roleblocker is to prevent the other person from completing their night-one action, not to 'prevent one night one action' thus I honestly believe a no-kill occuring would have been correct but I don't think I can fault your definition of the role due to the fact others seem to share.

Regardless, Subgenius and Maxous the both of you performed amazingly in the three way lylo, neither of you did anything that I would consider scummy or bad play and I would love to play with either of you again sometime. Vollkan, I can't say it enough, your play was stellar, with the exception of the push for the NL I couldn't link anything you did with a scum-tell as much as I wanted to.

I would happily accept criticism and advice in regards to my play.

[Regfan]

Like I said...it was a bit of an unanticipated N4 conundrum that was dealt with IMO as fairly as possible. If you (Vollkan) are totally blocked...you are implicated and doomed.

See, this is where the problem lies, you taking a definition of the role to make the game 'fair for all' did infact the opposite becuase majority of the playerbase alive at that point suspected Vollkan thus him being 'blocked, implicated and doomed' is due to how he played the game ie. Being FoS'ed.

You taking the path that you took leads to town essentially clearing him, even if they had the same understanding of the RB role that you did they would discount it due to the slim likelihood of the roleblocker being the last mafia. Meaning you doing what you did led towards Vollkan having an almost guarenteed win instead of a loss.

[Regfan]

And interpreting it the other way would have led to scum's almost guaranteed loss instead of win. So which outcome was fairer?

Clearly I'm biased due to the fact that I'm in the game but I believe if a player is roleblocked, it's because they're suspected thus deserve the roleblocking. For example, a cop checking mafia would 'implicated and doom' mafia but it would be fair that they lost.

Honestly, actions shouldn't be taken for the purpose of making the game "fair", because fair is subjective.

[Regfan]

Anyhow, well played maf. It came down to the wire, and I really did enjoy D5, even though I was approaching in completely incorrectly. I was still a bit disappointed that Regfan picked me to lynch, even though it really didn't matter.

Yeah, sorry about that. If it's any consolation I didn't vote you because I believed you were mafia I actually had a town-read on you throughout the whole game but rather I didn't see any possible way that Maxous could be mafia, he answered and responded to all my qualms I had about him.