Newbie 1086 (GAME OVER)

[Mogri]

Wahoo! My obsessive thread-checking finally pays off. Hello, everyone!

Guess I'll start things off with

I am no longer first, but I will still

randvote: Space Pope

[Mogri]

Wahoo! My obsessive thread-checking finally pays off. Hello, everyone!

Guess I'll start things off with

I am no longer first, but I will still

randvote: Space Pope

Hi Mogri, I suggest you get an avatar as soon as possible.

Avatar obtained.

ZZ: Pretty sure he means voting for someone who's playing in this game.

[Mogri]

Mersenne Twister is a pseudorandom number generation algorithm.

[Mogri]

Bad logic could be a scumtell, but overcaution isn't. Jumping on tiny mistakes, on the other hand, is a little fishy.

IGMEOY

[Mogri]

PEdit: Mogri: I must disagree. Mafia making tiny mistakes or slips can help the town. Who is that directed at?

Directed at jason in reference to projectmatt.

Question for jason: I notice you've been registered here something like two years, but you're still signed up for this game as a newbie. What's your background?

[Mogri]

I ask because it makes a difference. A noobtell is much more likely to be a scumtell if there's no noob behind it.

[Mogri]

I ask because it makes a difference. A noobtell is much more likely to be a scumtell if there's no noob behind it.

1. What is a noobtell?
2. Why is scummy play from a player suddenly change based on his join date. I had over 2 years of Non-MS forum Mafia experience before I came here. Why should, in my first game, I have been given the benefit of the doubt for being New when I had copious experience? Why should it ever be assumed that anyone new to MS doesn’t have Mafia experience?

(Here I am going to invent my own definition)

Noobtell: A mistake that indicates that a player is inexperienced. In Newbie 12, Stimpy counterclaiming doctor when he was actually the cop was, in hindsight, a terrible, terrible noobtell.

You make a good point about offline experience. Perhaps introductions are in order? I have played or modded maybe five RL games of Werewolf plus some games online in Xyl's #mafia. I have also been lurking here for a couple weeks.

[Mogri]

I have no reason to stick with my randvote, so

unvote

.

Putting matt at L-2 with little more explanation than "I want to get on a bandwagon," though? That's good enough to get me out of RVS.

Vote: rockynpoika

[Mogri]

ummm he did actually give reasoning... are you paying attention?

Here's what he said:

Concerning post41, do you have anything to say about the apparent contradiction? I do agree with jason that you seem to be stumbling over your phrasing when discussing town/scum. Also, what do you think about Zombolt and Sisterman? You are voting for sisterman because a lack of posting, any other reason? When you voted for sisterman, spacepope hadn't even appeared yet, why not vote for spacepope instead?
You originally where voting for Zombolt but left after you mistakenly thought there was more than one other vote. Now that you realize that it's just me, would you vote for him again? Why or why not?

The only actual reasoning in this block is a reference to the "apparent contradiction," which you yourself brought up, and which I don't personally see as a big deal. The fact that you're the one who brought it up indicates that you're hardly neutral in the matter, so it doesn't surprise me that you're jumping down my throat suddenly, especially since I've already indicated you're on my scumdar.

The matter of matt's vote is irrelevant; that was his RVS vote and is not necessarily indicative of his current suspicions. Until my last post, I was voting for Space Pope, whom I have no reason to suspect beyond the default suspicion due to a fellow player.

Also, why the hell where you still in RVS mode? there is plenty of discussion going.

I'm not; are

you

paying attention?

[Mogri]

Mogri,, what do you think of the Matt contradiction that looks like a scum slip to me?

It is not a contradiction to say that mafia are cautious and that he is also cautious. Don't be ridiculous.

Not knowing the mod wasn't playing is odd, but not particularly telling one way or the other.

[Mogri]

Not knowing the mod wasn't playing is odd, but not particularly telling one way or the other.

EBWOP: especially since Zengar voted for the mod first.

[Mogri]

You’ve just done the same thing you accuse Rocky of … putting someone at L-2 with little reasoning, in your case that you didn’t like him doing so.

If he is scummy for that action what does that say about you?

That I misread the vote count, I guess. I actually thought he only had one vote on him. I'm much happier with a Rocky wagon than a matt wagon, though, since the reasoning against him is somewhere between mostly and entirely baseless:
- Jason: His unvote sounds like nervous mafia.
- Space Pope: He implied that he was town.
- Rocky: He said that he was being cautious by unvoting, then also mentioned that mafia are cautious about their word choices.

I don't understand this wagon at all. None of that comes off as particularly suspect to me.

As far as the Rocky wagon is concerned, Sisterman's vote seems to be a randvote and I doubt it'll stick once he gets back around. So while he's technically L-2 (and I don't know how I missed this), he's not really being hounded the way projectmatt has been in the last few posts.

By the way, you also have a vote on him and you didn't unvote. Do you have some suspicions that you haven't let us in on?

Are you stating that Jason’s reaction to your play is scum driven?

No, just reactionary. It's essentially a very watered down form of OMGUS. Not to say I don't have my reasons, just that this isn't one of them.

[Mogri]

@Mogri, post 45
Although I do not believe that the BW on me started for a very good reason, I'll go ahead and say that you seem to be over exaggerating what Rocky was doing. He wasn't "just trying" to get on a bandwagon. Did you not realize or read his reasoning's?

I've already explained more than once why the mattwagon doesn't make sense to me. Shall I do a PBPA on post #43? Defending you is quickly becoming more trouble than it's worth

[Mogri]

So you infer that Jason is scummy for undermining you after you had stated suspicion of him but now say it isn’t scummy?

No, that is exactly the opposite of what I said. I said that I suspect Jason, but not because he jumped on me.

That doesn’t answer the question of whether you are scummy for doing exactly the same thing as Rocky.
...
Again, this doesn’t address at all whether you are similarly scummy to Rocky for taking actions exactly the same as him.

Let's go back over this:
- I thought there was one vote on Rocky at the time.
- I actually placed the third vote on Rocky, not the second.
- You pointed this out to me.
- Having realized this, I kept my vote where it was, for the reasons detailed earlier: A) Rocky wasn't going to stay at L-2; and B) nothing Matt has done strikes me as scummy, yet Rocky and Jason seem very eager to put vote pressure on him.

The two other people voting for Rocky were doing it in RVS and thus you are the only vote on Rocky with any real game reasoning (no matter how little others may believe you).
You conclude that a wagon on a player with 2 RVS votes is better than a wagon with 0 RVS votes?

That chain of logic makes little sense to me. I’m reading over-justification of your vote in this explanation from you. It’s Page 3 of the game. There aren’t going to be slam-dunk solid reasons for any wagon.

Here's why it should make perfect sense to you: I am now the only voter on rocky. Just as I predicted, the other votes that were already on him didn't stick.

No, I did not have unstated suspicions. I do not keep my vote idle. I was looking in thread for scum motivated play to make an actual vote.

Even if you're right on every point you've made about me, you haven't explained why it strikes you as "scum motivated play."

[Mogri]

Matt, can you provide a link to the site? or its name or something?

[Mogri]

You can repeat the course of events multiple times if you like but I require a direct answer to my question. Again please answer the following question –

Should you be viewed as being scummy for placing someone at L-2 with little reasoning? This is a Yes or No question … please answer accordingly.

It's a loaded question. Either I can answer yes, and you'll view me as scummy, or I can answer no, and you'll view me as scummy. I see little point in answering such a question. Moreover, judging by your current vote, you seem to have made up your mind on the matter anyway.

The soft but clear inference here is that it is suspicious of Jason to be questioning you since, as bolded, you are suspicious of him.

What the reader infers and what the writer implies are two separate things. I can't really do anything about what you choose to read into what I say.

Again, though, I don't understand the reasoning behind pursuing this line of questioning. Would it have made you happier if I had said that, yes, he's scummy for pointing the finger back at the guy who pointed it at him? OMGUS isn't a strong tell. I've said this already.

[Mogri]

Here's how I interpreted the question:
"Are you scummy for putting rocky at L-2?"

- No:

Then neither is he! You must be scum!

- Yes:

Aha! So you admit it!

Rather than answer a no-win question, I mentioned that I didn't realize I was putting him at L-2 at the time (which, if you're feeling generous, answers your question already) and explained my reasoning for voting him and keeping my vote on him.

But let's play this from a different angle. Suppose I

am

scum. Why am I defending matt? If he's my scumbuddy, then color me the dumbest scum in the history of the game, since the second you lynch one of us, the other is also gone. This isn't WIFOM unless you think I'm taking a very risky gambit.

The other option is that my scumbuddy is someone else entirely, in which case why derail the matt wagon? No one else has his back and he's the easy lynch. Look, even now that he's got a rational and plausible explanation for all of his actions, he still has two votes on him. There's a good reason the suspicion is turning towards jason and rocky, but you haven't mentioned any. What's your read on them?

[Mogri]

EBWOP:

Your response was to not directly answer but first show how the wagon on Project was baseless (in your opinion) and then to try to say that the RVS votes mean Rocky was not really at L-2.

Actually this holds true. Until the votes are presented with proper reasoning, you can't really have them count as being actually there unless we had a very dangerous case like L-1 or a full lynch. But on those cases, scumtells would have been oh so obvious, almost sacrificial. You could say that vote

prevented

scum from voting further on Rocky since it would have been very suspicious with what little reasoning there is normally so early.

Don't understand the whole prevention part. Are you saying that scum wouldn't put someone at L-2 because it would be too suspicious?

Pretty sure he means scum (or town) wouldn't place the L-1 vote at that point.

The underlined also does not make since. Bussing is a perfectly reasonable thing to do and I fail to see how you giving a successful buss makes you look scummy.

Because I wouldn't have been bussing? Defending him is the complete opposite of bussing.

With rocky replacing out, I'll UNVOTE: rockynpoika for now and wait for the DarkCoffeeJazz to get into the game.

[Mogri]

Do you have any impressions you'd like to share? There must be something you've gleaned from all that reading.

[Mogri]

Idle banter: If MoI's town win% is only 37.5 and his scum win% is 83.3, does that mean we're statistically ahead of the game to lynch him?

[Mogri]

If you don't mind me asking, why exactly were you looking at the win rates of users? Just curious.

It's in his signature. Don't have to look far to see that.

I was joking (there are several things wrong with lynching based on statistics alone), but jokes aside, that is a really odd skew.

I knew I'd pick up a vote or two with that line, but I couldn't help myself...

Actual content incoming

I am going to slightly tone down my fos'ing on Jason as I realize that several of my points were slightly invalid.

Which points? Because right now, Jason is my #1 candidate.

[Mogri]

Oh, and lest anyone say the joking was a thin cover for scuminess, here is a list of things that are wrong with voting based on his statistics:
- Statistics alone don't prove anything. He could have gotten very bad luck as town or very good luck as scum.
- The history in his past games has no bearing on his role in the current game; statistically, each of us is more likely to be town than scum.
- Even supposing he has a history of being very good at scum AND very bad at town, that doesn't justify a lynch. You'd just need to take everything he says with a grain of salt (which you should be doing anyway, IC or not).

</logic>

my main belief is that he has scum slipped.

What was his scumslip, exactly?

[Mogri]

Short answer: really crappy week at work. Sorry for blowing off steam in a way that affects the game.

I'll post more tomorrow.

[Mogri]

Jokes and blowing off steam are not two completely different things

nice way to answer without actually answering! any reason why you didn't actually answer yet danced around it so merrily

Yes. The reason is in the text that you quoted. I... really don't understand the point of confusion here.

Really, really? then why is your vote not on me.. if I am your number one suspect, your vote would have been on me long ago..

There are several players who aren't voting right now. Presumably, they all have suspicions as well. I don't see what the problem is here.

The reason I don't currently have a vote on you is that I'm trying to pin down a read. Your play thus far has been erratic finger-pointing based on flawed logic (examples earlier in this post!). I would either call that scummy or just plain bad play, and while I'd like to think that your experience is sufficient to rule out bad play, it's a leap I'm not comfortable making at this time. If you really want me to put a vote on you, though, I will

As for Rocky/DCJ: Yes, the players have swapped and not the roles, but DCJ's play has been more townish than Rocky's had been IMO. A very insightful recap post plus conservative play versus Rocky's very aggressive playstyle. I'll be keeping my eye on DCJ because it's possible he's keeping a low profile to lose some of the residual suspicion from Rocky's play, but for now, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Mogri]

If you're that dead set on being voted, then I'll VOTE: Jason for reasons previously stated.

In not voting you are showing signs of Cognitive Dissoanance, in this case your actions (not voting for a suspect) do not align with your words (Jason is your number 1 suspect).

You keep using that phrase. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Moreover, suspecting Jason and not voting for him is not self-contradictory, in the same way that saying scum are cautious and saying I am cautious are not contradictory. I really can't tell if you guys are THIS bad at logic or if you're doing it on purpose.

I’ve bolded the age old “Everybody else is doing it" tell.

Again, I question your logic here. It is impossible for everyone else who is doing it to be scum.

How could DCJ’s play have been more Townish before he even posted? This looks like an attempt to produce a retro-active explanation.

Where did I say that DCJ was townish before he posted? Are you referring to my unvote? I did not unvote because DCJ looks townish.

I appear to be on the block here, having attracted the attention of several voters.

If I do end up lynched, do yourselves a favor and take a good, hard look at Jason and MoI, who have spent this game using bad logic to tunnel other players. If they are indeed town, they seriously need to reassess the logic of their arguments.

Examples forthcoming.

[Mogri]

#17: In a single post, Jason votes, unvotes, then votes Rocky.

#19: MoI also votes Rocky.

#27: Jason votes projectmatt, claiming that matt's unvote "sounds like nervous mafia to me."

Bad logic count: 1

#36: Jason claims to not understand why it's relevant that he's IC and not a newbie.

#40: MoI suggests that it's irrelevant that Jason's IC and not a newbie.

#41: Jason jumps on matt for the following "contradiction":

he says scum are careful and precise in what they say... then says about how he is cautious..

Yea, scumslip!

In fact, that is not a contradiction at all.

Bad logic count: 2

#47: Jason asks why I'm still in RVS. His post quotes me as placing a non-RVS vote.

#48: Jason claims suspicion of Rocky, but greater suspicion of matt and me.

#57: MoI says that matt's "contradiction" is indicative of cognitive dissonance, which is not true even for MoI's definition of the term.

Bad logic count: 3

#68: MoI insists that I think Jason attacking me is scummy, despite me saying otherwise. MoI votes for me, claiming "scum motivated play."

#88: MoI continues to insist that I think Jason's attack on me is scummy. I am not sure why I'd lie about this. MoI accuses me of dodging his loaded question. He says he'll explain his reasoning once I answer it.

#91: MoI's explanation for his vote is apparently that my reaction "isn't one I'd expect from town." Rock-solid reasoning.

#98: In response to a direct question, MoI claims a null read on Jason, stating that he should have a good read on him in the next week and that he has "Jason-specific tells." (This was five days ago.)

#107: Jason says that matt is "the most solid read" and that it's "easy to see why."

#112: Jason is still harping on the epicmafia confusion, even though it's been explained already.

#116: Jason says Rocky is 3rd on his list of suspicions. About me, he says, "town points for unvoting rocky when he left to give replacement time to catch up.. seems to have some bad logic IMO, have a shaky feeling about him."

#124: My stupid post.

#129: Jason votes for me.

#130: Jason claims that the epicmafia bit was never part of his case against projectmatt: "my main belief is that he has scum slipped."

#134: Jason again points to matt's non-contradiction (from #41) and his "nervous mafia" read (from #27). Jason asks me why I dodged MoI's loaded question while quoting my reason for dodgin MoI's loaded question.

Bad logic count: 3

#135: Jason jumps on me for not voting for him.

#146: Jason jumps on me for not voting for him.

#151: MoI feels justified in his vote. He jumps on me for not voting for Jason, calling it cognitive dissonance. MoI thinks changing my read on DCJ is a retroactive explanation for unvoting Rocky.

Bad logic count: 4

#152: Jason jumps on me for not voting for him.

#153: Jason jumps on me for not voting for him.

#158: MoI interrogates matt.

There's a pretty clear pattern here: Jason and MoI tunneling matt and me. Two IC-level players employing fallacies to tunnel other players as early as turn two.

Quick, someone tell me: what's Jason's read on MoI? Does he have one? Who knows? I sure don't, because Jason hasn't said a word to or about MoI. What's MoI's read on Jason? We don't know that, either, because even though I asked MoI directly, he didn't respond. He essentially said, "I'll tell you in a week or so." Why haven't two of the most active players felt any need to interact?

[Mogri]

EBWOP: I can't count

[Mogri]

Uh-huh... you know, an example would really give you more credibility here.

[Mogri]

Okay, so you ARE bad at logic. Let's do a quick primer, then.

Linking to what is effectively a dictionary definition of a term that ignores that Mafiascum has a specific usage of the term isn’t a valid defense.

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... ance&go=Go

I have no evidence to suggest that your usage is not specific to you. This is possibly a false attribution fallacy.

It is absolutely contradictory. You are saying Jason is your number 1 suspect yet aren’t voting him because you need to solidify a read.

This is a false dilemma fallacy. You are ignoring the possibility of not having a sufficient read on anyone to place a vote. The fact that Jason was my top suspect does not automatically make him suspect enough to vote.

Using insulting language as a means to support your statement isn’t Pro-Town at all.

Because you said so? This is essentially an appeal to authority, where you are the authority.

Project has stated repeatedly that Mafia are more likely to behave in a manner that is “careful and precise”. Ostensibly Project knows he is Town. Thus when he is behaving in a manner that is consistent with a scum tell in his book it shows that either...

This is the fallacy of affirming the consequent, one of the most well-known and basic logical fallacies.

Argument: If a player is scum, he will play cautiously. Matt is playing cautiously, therefore he is scum.
Problem: Matt does not need to be scum in order to play cautiously.

Your suspicion of Rocky was “that he put someone at L-2” for what you believed were poor reasoning. You didn’t hesitate at all to vote. Yet it takes consistent pointing out that you refuse to vote Jason, your Number 1 suspect, for you to do so. Your long ‘list’ at 164 seems to indicate you had plenty of reason to do so. I don’t see any consistency in your behavior.

On the other hand, I see some strong consistency in your behavior. You jump on me when I place a vote, you jump on me when I don't place a vote.

Lastly regarding attacking my reads –

What are your reads on SpacePope, Runner, TOGTFO, and Zengar? I don’t see them.
Other than saying Dark is more Town than Rocky and attacking myself and Jason for having suspicion of you I don’t see anything significant from you on many players.

Not only are you deflecting, you are also dodging the question. But the easy answer is here:

Why haven't two of the most active players felt any need to interact?

You are asking for my reads on the four

least

active players. This doesn't even begin to answer the question of why you and Jason have been talking to everyone except each other.

For the record, though, I have no particular read on the four players you mention. They've been keeping a low profile relative to the other players.

[Mogri]

I feel like Mogri is doing well under pressure.

Being as active as he is means that you mess up, give false slips.

He demeanor has been town and he has been scum hunting, he just tends to be awkward sometimes. Although, I agree with DarkCoffee in the since that most of Mogri's arguments have been discrediting his opponent.

Thanks!

Regarding discrediting my opponents - I try to discredit arguments, not people. I can see where I might have gone overboard here, but in some situations, I think it's warranted (like the people who are jumping on matt for his not-a-contradiction).

The sentence I've bolded: I've considered going slightly more lurky for exactly this reason, but that would just give Jason and MoI one more reason to jump on me. Sometimes, you can't win.

[Mogri]

Missed this on the last page:

EBWOP: Meant to add this in, sorry. As an addition to teh above post, I meant to say one thing:

Mogri, while we're on the subject of logical fallacies and using them against people, why don't you review your own Appeals to Ridicule?
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... icule.html

Aka "So you ARE bad at logic", which is, technically, a way of trying to discredit the person you are arguing against.

A popular misconception is that if someone says, "You're stupid and your argument is wrong because X, Y, and Z," then that person has committed an ad hominem. That's incorrect; an ad hominem says, "You're wrong because you're stupid."

Along the same lines, much or all of what MoI is labeling as strawman arguments are actually cherry picking, which is related but not the same thing, and, more importantly, not a fallacy in and of itself. It'd be nitpicking at this point to go down the list, though; however...

You are simply cherry picking fallacies in an attempt to undermine my acccusations against you.

Yes, that is exactly what I did. I don't see why you take issue with me pointing out the holes in your arguments.

Matt may be scum not for playing cautiously but for stating that scum always play that way when he should, if Town, know that it isn’t a valid argument.

You are now saying that [[Matt should know that "scum play cautiously" is an overgeneralization.]] This is a new argument altogether and is inconsistent with what you've said before.

Speaking of deflections … you don’t address the inconsistency in your behavior but attack me again. You can’t justify your behavior so you try to turn it on me. Don’t expect it to work.

Nice try, but that does address the inconsistency. After you jumped on me for my first vote, I tried voting more conservatively -- but you jumped on me for that, too.

Are you choosing not to read? You once again cherry picked the part of the quote that you thought might bolster your argument. Bravo. As is said ... before the end of the Day I will have a solid read on Jason.

And that still doesn't answer the question.

Now you’ve just pulled a 180. In your previous posts you attack me for tunnelling you and Projectmatt. That by definition means I’m ignoring everyone else.

Yet suddenly I’m interacting with everyone but Jason.

Which behavior am I doing again? Feel free to decide so I can address it.

And you say I dodge questions! Let me be explicit: Several players have accused Jason of scummy play. You have not said one word to or about him (except "I'll tell you later," which, hey, thanks for that). You have

interacted

with most of the players besides Jason, and for whatever reason you have

tunnel vision

on me and Matt.

Still with me?

You and Jason are among the most active players currently. You two have not exchanged words once in eight pages of posts. I would like an explanation from both of you. Jason said this was a lie but did not provide any examples, whereas you have spent two posts talking about everything but this.

The most obvious explanation to me is that you two already know each other's alignment.

[Mogri]

And in post 129, Jason respond to him and, this is my direct quote of his post,

"ok, this caught my eye with a big red scummy as hell flag"

Not to derail your train here, but I'm pretty sure Jason was talking about me when he said that.

[Mogri]

I'm still here.

It sounds like I've got four different votes on me for four different reasons. Can you four explain your votes?

[Mogri]

SpacePope, are you referring to this?

EBWOP:

Your response was to not directly answer but first show how the wagon on Project was baseless (in your opinion) and then to try to say that the RVS votes mean Rocky was not really at L-2.

Actually this holds true. Until the votes are presented with proper reasoning, you can't really have them count as being actually there unless we had a very dangerous case like L-1 or a full lynch. But on those cases, scumtells would have been oh so obvious, almost sacrificial. You could say that vote

prevented

scum from voting further on Rocky since it would have been very suspicious with what little reasoning there is normally so early.

Don't understand the whole prevention part. Are you saying that scum wouldn't put someone at L-2 because it would be too suspicious?

Pretty sure he means scum (or town) wouldn't place the L-1 vote at that point.

Because it's not the only time in this thread I've said "I think player X means Y." If that's the sole basis for your vote, please reconsider.

[Mogri]

Like MOI I am not going to repeat my reasoning... I believe I have given my views enough already for you to understand why I am voting you and believe you to be scum.

I also gotta say that parroting MoI isn't helping your case here.

[Mogri]

If it helps, Zengar was replaced, so he wasn't so much "actively lurking" as "not here at all." I really don't get why you think my connection with Zengar makes me scummy if you no longer think Zeng -- er, Jerako -- is scummy. I mean, why'd you even bring it up?

MoI's question that I avoided was absolutely a loaded question. Any way I answered it would have made me look bad. Not answering it also apparently made me look bad, so it was a lose-lose-lose for me. If MoI is indeed scum, then this was an excellent play on his part. You'll notice he made no attempt to address or deny the fact that the question was loaded.

[Mogri]

For reference:

A reaction of “Oh, so I did … I guess you could say I might be scummy if you choose but I’m placing my vote on who I think is scum” or something similar would have been a natural response.

Would it be a natural response? Maybe. Would it have cleared me of suspicion? No.

Meanwhile, while we're on the topic of questions being avoided,

I have asked you a question three times now and you haven't answered it.

Anyone who's jumping on me for not answering his

loaded

question, take a look at MoI and Jason and ask yourselves why they can't answer a

simple, legitimate

question.

You two have not exchanged words once in eight pages of posts. I would like an explanation from both of you.

You explained your read on him, but that does not explain why you two have never once talked to each other, despite being two of the most active players in the thread.

Morgi saying people avoid answering things... ironic eh?

Yeah, ironic.

[Mogri]

I'm not going to claim just yet. I think it's ridiculous that everyone is ignoring this:

Meanwhile, while we're on the topic of questions being avoided,

I have asked you a question three times now and you haven't answered it.

Anyone who's jumping on me for not answering his

loaded

question, take a look at MoI and Jason and ask yourselves why they can't answer a

simple, legitimate

question.

You two have not exchanged words once in eight pages of posts. I would like an explanation from both of you.

You explained your read on him, but that does not explain why you two have never once talked to each other, despite being two of the most active players in the thread.

Anyone who thinks my avoidance of MoI's question earlier was scummy, please take a good, hard look at this. To MoI, I repeat the question and further ask, "If I am scummy for that action, what does that say about you?"

Is there anyone here who actually would have been fine with a no lynch today?

There is no reason whatsoever for a no lynch today. I'd rather you all lynch me than no-lynch; at least town can learn something that way. That said, Jerako, please don't hammer; we don't have long left today and if I don't misunderstand, I die either way at deadline. In the meantime, there's some good discussion going on right now.

Mogri - Is trying way too hard to seem reasonable.

I... really don't know what you mean by this.

[Mogri]

I thought MOI answered you already Mogri. Several times.

Then I must have missed it several times. Where's his answer?

[Mogri]

The other half of the equation that's being ignored: even if you think MoI answered the question (and I don't think he did), Jason certainly did not. Jason's only comments on the matter have been to deny it outright and a drunken "yeah, what he said" in response to a matt post.

I'll claim later today (realtime), if it comes to that, but for now, here's my list of reads.

Jason: Scum. If he's not scum, he's worthless town for reasons that Jerako and matt have pointed out. Do yourselves a favor and lynch him tomorrow.

MoI: Leaning scum. I didn't have any particular reason to suspect him before I noticed the no-comm with Jason. If Jason's town, then MoI is probably town as well.

matt: Town. He got overzealous at the beginning, but he really is trying.

DCJ: Leaning town. In hindsight, rocky comes off as aggressive town. DCJ's reasoning on me is actually pretty good and his recap was helpful.

Runner: Null. Hasn't been very active; watch him for lurkiness.

Jerako: Slightly leaning town. I wasn't paying much attention to ZZ (and he wasn't posting much anyway), but I like Jerako's recap.

Space Pope: Null. Another player I haven't paid too much attention to, and another of the less active ones. Better than Runner in this regard.

TOGTFO: Town. He's been trying to be helpful. The no-lynch suggestion was a bad one, but I can see that as a newbie mistake: being unfamiliar with strategy.

[Mogri]

Addendum: Right now, it's only matt and TOGTFO asking me to claim. Jerako said he would hammer me conditionally, not that he would definitely hammer. Claiming now is premature, but I'll do it if there's demand other than from two people who don't suspect me anyway.

[Mogri]

Your question is – why haven’t I talked to Jason? The answer is simply this – I don’t feel the need to interrogate Jason Day 1 to get a solid read on him. I would think that would have been self explanatory based on my response to Project.

Does it make me scummy? If you want to make that case I’ll not dispute that I was specifically not answering your question. It was for a reason … to help cement my read on Jason.

Fair enough... What does it say about Jason, though, that he hasn't gotten around to answering?

Therefore when another person not on the wagon wishes for you to claim, that is a majority of the players wanting you to claim.

The only people outside of the wagon who have asked for a claim have also said they think I'm town. The only person who has indicated interest in hammering me did so conditionally and did not ask for a claim. I can understand that you're anxious to get things moving, but please consider:
- I will probably get lynched regardless of claim at this point
- Claiming opens me up to be hammered
- There are some questions I want answered before I go.

I

will

claim, but to do so prematurely is detrimental to town.

[Mogri]

Fair enough... What does it say about Jason, though, that he hasn't gotten around to answering?

Do you not read the thread? I’m seriously asking because I gave my read on Jason back at post 218 –

I'm not asking about your read on Jason - not specifically. I'm asking specifically about Jason's avoidance of that particular question. Again, he's claiming to have had interactions with you when he has not. He is also now claiming that he has answered the question when he has not.

Jason, no. I'm not even going to consider claiming on your behalf. MoI's spot-on here; since voting me, you've contributed nothing of interest to the game. You have absolutely NOT answered the question and your answer to MoI's recent question was your first actual back-and-forth interaction with him in the game. Prove me wrong and I'll claim.

[Mogri]

In all likelyhood he is either scum waiting to fake-claim at the last moment to put Town in a bad position or a Vanilla Townie, where his claim would not matter for purposes of avoiding a lynch.

MoI is correct. I'm a

Vanilla Townie

and I don't expect it to make a difference either way.

This makes Jason happy now, right?

[Mogri]

Also, Morgi... do you not have anything to say about what I have recently posted, showing that you are wrong and I did answer questions/interact like youscum tried to say I didn't?

Yes. I still think that if you're not scum, then you're a terrible townie and you're still my #1 lynch candidate. I also stand by this:

MoI's spot-on here; since voting me, you've contributed nothing of interest to the game.

youscum

pronoun

: 1. Like "you," but scummier.

[Mogri]

Well, I'm lynched. Thanks for the game, and good luck to town!

[Mogri]

Oh man, who called that? I did. I totally did.

Nice playing, MOI.