Mini 1166: Town Hall Mafia (GAME OVER)

[sAbLLimINal]

confirm

[sAbLLimINal]

/confirm.

VOTE: sAbLLimINal

Clearly trying to communicate secret messages there, and you know who needs to communicate in secret? That's right, the mafia.

There are plenty of other roles that like to communicate secretly *cough* doc/cop *cough* (btw that shouldn't be interpreted as me claiming any of those roles).

Who hasn't received a vote yet?

VOTE: EmpTyger

Welcome to the club!

[sAbLLimINal]

There's no rule saying that gambits are not allowed, just use your judgement.

I claim that I'm a woman (oops I just lied so should I be lynched?)

[sAbLLimINal]

I'm starting to feel better about that joke vote. Best way to learn our policies is to just play on here long enough. Right now you're just adding fluff and trying to figure out the status quo here so that you can use it to look town later.

It can be applied to both sides - town trying to figure out how to look town, scum trying to figure out how to look town. I'm not sure I agree with EmpTyger that the interaction feels contrived, because that ^ post was what initiated the argument, and all C-Worl is trying to do is appeal to emotion.

U mad brah? Yah u mad. 1 Scum caught. Now who are your mates?

Good, my vote is in the right place.

Explanation?

Sab's 17 is rather horrible. Throwing role WIFOM into the pot to defend against a mostly random vote is unnecessary, and his reason for voting is actively bad.

I knew it was a random vote, but I was just trying to make a statement. My vote was random, and it was justified when EmpTyger didn't mention about it.

WRT IIAUS: I find it weird he had to specifically note that he was not claiming Doc/Cop.

I thought that some people would interpret that post as me claiming I was doc/cop, hence why I made that note.
UNVOTE:

[sAbLLimINal]

Yeah that's fine with me. It's not the end of the world if you forgot to capitalize a letter.

[sAbLLimINal]

Sorry, was busier than I thought I would be.

How did Emp not mentioning your vote justify it?

If he thought it wasn't random, then he would have mentioned something.

Going back now for a more thorough read.

[sAbLLimINal]

I won't be hammering right now since I feel that this wagon has been leaped on much too quickly.

I don't like how he claims this right after ThAdmiral places the L-1 vote on kuz. Emp mentioned about someone claiming once they are at L-1, and I would have thought mitsuru would have had the experience of knowing that. Even though he says that he feels the wagon has moved too quickly, he goes on to say that he is worried about the wagon, because people are voting for kuz since he is being over-defensive. This makes it seem like he wants to hammer, but is afraid to do so, which I see as scummy.
VOTE: Mitsuru Kijiro

[sAbLLimINal]

If I was scummy in wanting to hammer but being afraid to hammer, I'd be hammering town, would I not? As such, I would be encouraging this wagon, rather than discouraging it.

I don't get what you're saying here. I voted for you because you said that you won't be hammering right now, which indicates that you actually wanted to hammer.

I actually agree with Fishy on this one; as things stand, there's no reason that kuz should have claimed. He was at L-1, but no one has indicated a willingness to drop the hammer vote, as far as I remember. I mean, I'd prefer it if someone did, because he's scum, but until that happens, he shouldn't claim.

So you're saying that it's better to kill him instead of waiting for him to claim? That doesn't really help us much at all.

[sAbLLimINal]

I'm agreeing with Rhino and Fishy.

VOTE: ThAdmiral

Talking about behavior...
Note that since kuz has been at -1:
- he hasn't claimed, even though he has posted and therefore has had a chance to do so.
- other than the one post he has basically stopped posting. This is particularly odd as during the first few days of this game he was involved in a flurry of posts.

To be honest I wasn't thinking of forcing a claim when I put him to -1; it was mainly to put pressure on and to see how he would respond. However given that he was at -1 for a while and his response (which was basically just whining) made him look even worse I do believe he should have claimed.

Pretty much what Fishy is saying, but it is a contradiction. In the first quote, ThAdmiral makes a note about kuz not claiming being at L-1, but then says that he wasn't really attending kuz to claim and that it was just to be for pressure.

@ThAdmiral: What kind of response were you looking for if you weren't intending on kuz claiming?

[sAbLLimINal]

Because there's a difference in context. He can not care about the claim at L1 (bc anyone can fake claim at L1 and it's easier than some make it sound) but the fact that Kuz DIDN'T claim shows that he needed time to MAKE a good fake claim (Good ones take time) It's scummy as hell.

I don't think kuz didn't claim because he needs days to make a "good fake claim." All it takes is a couple of minutes at most, so I don't see this as any argument at all. It's been 5 days since he hasn't posted so I am assuming by the rules we are going to get a replacement.

[sAbLLimINal]

I'm sorry, sue me for wanting to move the game along. I wasn't convinced of Adscum but I'm also not convinced of Adtown. The game needed to move forward and we were at a stalemate. I broke the stalemate. Sue me for it.

Having two competing bandwagons is actually pro-town because it allows many opinions and alignments to form. It's also not the best decision to want to end the day early if we still have more than a week left to gather more information. However, I'm still leaning towards ThAdmiral right now. His vote just shows that he will do anything to not get lynched, and I'm sure if another bandwagon forms he will be on that one with little explanation as to why he's on it.

[sAbLLimINal]

How is me voting c-word for an absolutely terribad wagon-jump indicitive of me "doing anything to not get lynched"?
C-word has one other vote on him, and I would have voted him even if he didn't. How does that suggest I will jump on another bandwagon with little explanation?

Well let's take a look at your voting history

This is the best point in the game so far.

vote: kuz

Yeah, wtf?

vote: c-world

You're also right. I got sidetracked but kuz/archaist is the real scum here.

vote: archaist

You never gave a single reason to any of the votes you casted. You have only been agreeing with other people's thoughts. In fact, two out of these three votes came from agreeing with iamausername. Maybe you forgot your own definition of buddying

I tend to think of buddying as somewhat more sophisticated than what you are implying. To me buddying is stuff like agreeing with someone's reads, defending them against attacks, copying their cases, as well as calling them town.

How am I supposed to think you are town when you are giving no additional reasons for your votes and just copying other people's reasons?

Yeah, can we not do this? C-Worl is town, ThAd is town, let's all rewind a little and notice how Archaist's catch-up post was a whole lot of words that said absolutely nothing and lynch him instead.

Sorry.

Unvote; Vote: Archaist

BTW, Archaist didn't properly read the thread, scumtell.

I bet iamausername is loving the power he has right now of being able to change the votes of ThAdmiral and C-Worl from voting each other to having both of them vote Archaist. Good job!

[sAbLLimINal]

@Archaist: I was looking back and I remembered there was a discussion about whether or not kuz should have claimed when he was at L-1. What would you have done in that situation?

I made notes about everyone's voting record and I figured I'll share it with everyone to take a look:

Code: Select all

Day 1 Activities

1. Mitsuru Kirijo - votes iam(random) 

3. EmpTyger - bw cworl: kuz(random), votes rhino

4. th3kuzinator Archaist - votes cworl(random)

5. ThAdmiral - bw iam,fishy: sab (random), bw cworl, iam, rhino: kuz(being upset), bw kuz: cworl, bw iam: kuz

6. C-Worl - votes rhinox(random), votes kuz(omgus), bw fishy, rhino: thad(move game forward), bw iam, thad: kuz

7. iamausername - votes sab(random), bw cworl, rhino: kuz(being upset)

8. Fishythefish - bw iam: sab, votes emp(scummy arguments), bw rhino: thad(about kuz claiming), votes mk(not doing anything)

9. Rhinox - bw cworl: kuz(being overdefensive), votes thad(bad reason for l1)

Code: Select all

Player  	Votes	BW	Total
MK      	1	0	1
Emp     	1	1	2
Kuz     	1	0	1
ThAd    	0	4	4
Cworl   	2	2	4
iamauser	1	1	2
fishy   	2	2	4
rhino   	1	1	2

[sAbLLimINal]

@ sab: nice statistics. Are you just going to leave it at that or are you going to do analysis?

Well scum like to bandwagon, and that's what you've done so far in this game. I would imagine that the other scum player is probably trying to do the exact opposite of what you're doing to remain under the radar. Like I said before, the majority of bandwagons you were on also included iam, which makes me consider you two are scum. However, I feel that the best vote is you because of the reasons I already said.

[sAbLLimINal]

@ThAdmiral: Feel free to ignore it if you want, I don't really care.

@MK: Does your typical playstyle usually result in you hammering the vote and nothing else? I'm just curious as to why you're neglecting to use one of the most powerful tools to help you and the town.

[sAbLLimINal]

Could you explain your reasoning behind that c-worl? It looks to me like you would rather lynch MK than Archaist.

[sAbLLimINal]

Oh sorry I misread his post because he switched you and MK around the second time. I thought he was saying MK and Archaist are obvscum and thought he created a scenario where in both cases MK would have to be scum.

[sAbLLimINal]

umm, I think that brings his vote up to 4, not 5 so he's not lynched...

[sAbLLimINal]

Sorry everyone, holiday weekend is making me busy but I'll get right to this.

[sAbLLimINal]

I am obvtown after yesterday, so killing me would not implicate Rhinox in any way. I have demonstrated a stubborn refusal to let go of my top suspect, and the ability to get them lynched. Rhinox would have every reason to believe that a) I would come into this day after his blood, and b) I have the power to exert my will upon this town. No way he kills anyone but me.

This is creating WIFOM if you're trying to explain why you weren't killed.

I don't think I need to explain why ThAd is town.

Actually could you explain it to me?


My initial thoughts right now are leaning towards fishy. I noticed that when kuz/Arch was gathering votes, fishy tried to both defend and distance himself. He stated that there was one thing kuz did that was scummy, which was jumping on a townread. His defense was that people were seeing flaking as a scumtell, which he claimed that and being defensive was not a scumtell. I don't remember people explaining that there vote on kuz was because he was flaking, except for emp's ultimatum way back in post 111.

[sAbLLimINal]

I had been focusing on ThAdmiral for the majority of the time yesterday because he was mostly band wagoning. Fishy's claim of being a vig makes sense because he was focusing on MK yesterday. With that claim, it is making ThAdmiral my top suspect again. However, as long as rhino or anyone else doesn't counter claim fishy's claim, I'm tempted just to go along with fishy's lead because we basically have a confirmed town member. I'd rather go along with someone leading the lynch like fishy instead of someone like iam, who although took on the leadership role, iam is not "confirmed" like fishy is.

[sAbLLimINal]

Case in point; right now he appears to be leaning towards you as the scum. Would you still rather follow his lead than mine?

I'll do what's best for the town. If I were scum, would I state that I'll follow the person who thinks I'm scum?

[sAbLLimINal]

@Rhinox: Do you have any reasons why you are leaning towards emp instead of ThAd?

[sAbLLimINal]

ThAd was the counterwagon to Archaist. while its certainly possible they could both be scum, I'm sorta playing the odds that the 2 leading wagons weren't scum.

So you are saying that because Arch flipped scum, ThAd is less likely to be scum because the odds are low of having the 2 leading wagons both be scum? Thanks for the loads of confidence you have in the town!


I consider Rhinox to be in the same boat as ThAd. Looking back at Rhino's iso, he goes from ThAd to MK to Arch in around 48 hours. Even though the deadline was approaching, it seems like he's trying a last-minute attempt when he switched his vote to MK. Then when the deadline was near, his vote on Arch looks more like an "I give up" post.

[sAbLLimINal]

I mean he's only had 25 posts here and I know I've done far stupider stuff in my time...

I have no idea how this is supposed to relate to my 254 being a bad scum-play. Could you explain why?

I'm serious about the safety play. What do we lose if iama, ThAd, and sAb claim today? If nothing, then... why don't we?

I was thinking about mentioning a mass-claim earlier on, but I wasn't sure how everyone else would percieve it. I don't mind claiming if you want me to.

I don't think sAb pointing out Rhinox hasn't hammered means too much.

Well, I'll play the "what-if" scenario. What if arch wasn't paying attention to the VC and claimed a power role? Rhinox set up a scenario that could no way help the town. If Arch had claimed a power role, then we might have had either a no-lynch due to the fact that it was close to the deadline, or MK being lynched.

@fishy: Who do you think would have gotten the most blame (or I guess the person who would get targetted the most) if there was a no-lynch?

[sAbLLimINal]

firstly, if arch thought I fake hammered, why would he then claim in response to being *hammered*?

Considering the fact that Arch was scum, if he knew you fake hammered, he could have taken advantaged and claimed a power role or something so that people would unvote him. That's what I would have tried to do if I was Arch.

secondly, suppose he did claim a PR, isn't not lynching a PR and no lynching better than lynching a PR*^?

Well as you said it depends on the claim and then seeing if anyone else counter-claimed. But still, wouldn't that be why it would make sense to claim if Arch (still scum) thought you faked hammered?

"Rhinox set up a scenario that could no way help the town." - is at all justified by the "claiming a PR" example you've given, let alone justified at all.

I get what you tried to do about trying to get the "bah go town" kind of post. But if Arch claimed a PR (and actually was that PR), then that would hurt the town, since at that time we didn't know there was a doc in play to protect him so scum would target him.

Likewise, if there's a Rhinox/ThAd/iama endgame, who would you be praying from beyond the grave that the town picks?

I forgot the order of night actions, but doesn't the night kill come before the vig? I'm still tossed-up between Rhinox and ThAd, but if I had to make a prediction, I'll predict that ThAd is going to immediatly vote for iama and then Rhinox will quick hammer for the scum win.

[sAbLLimINal]

In my mind if rhinox is scum there are two very good reasons for him to fakehammer when he did: either to get the nolynch, or to try and get a "townie" reaction out of archaist so people (or even just himself) jump off him. In the second case he could have waited for archaist to say "this sucks, I'm town - good luck everyone etc." and then rhinox could have said "shit, that seems town to me, unvote, vote: whoever" and then avoided archaist being lynched.

This was what I was trying to explain except using the case of actually claiming a power role instead of just saying I'm town.

[sAbLLimINal]

Why would you be afraid that ThAd would vote iama over Rhinox tomorrow, when he voted Rhinox over iama today?

Well besides the fact that iama is targetting ThAd right now, I just get the impression that ThAd might do something like that. I just wouldn't want to see this game end like that, especially after we were able to kill a goon day 1.

I still argue that a PR not getting lynched and getting nked instead is better than a PR getting lynched, but worse than the PR not claiming at all.

Alright yeah I'll agree with you there. Having a PR getting lynched would just open up more opprotunities for scum to NK another PR. I guess it's just the way you said it makes it seem like you are telling your scum buddy to do something. It's probably just bad intuition.

Let me ask you this, would you be questioning me all the same today if I'd have just voted arch to L-1 and not fake-hammered?

Not as much, but I would still find you suspicious because of the final couple of votes. Like I said before, your vote on Arch seemed really defeated. After you had been pressuring MK for some time, you said that you would focus more on ThAd and iama, and seem to ignore MK.

[sAbLLimINal]

@ThAd:I've already been saying you and Rhinox.

@Rhinox: Well, you said "ugh, I guess..." and by the definition of ugh it means "Used to express disgust or horror." So when you used ugh, I am interpreting that you are showing you are digusted that someone found some kind of catch on Arch.

About the part of you ignoring MK - even if arch had flipped town you still stated that you would focus more on ThAd and iama. That's why I felt it was odd that when you were voting Arch, you weren't considering MK anymore.

@fishy: Why Rhinox after you stated that you wanted me and emp dead?

@emp: Would you rather lynch me or Rhinox?

@iama: I find it weird that you are just sitting in the back seat today, compared to yesterday when you were in the front. Who are you leaning towards as scum?

[sAbLLimINal]

Bah, go town