Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den - Endgame

[Pine]

My role PM was ambiguous about my alignment, so I daycopped myself just to be sure. Good thing too. It turns out I'm scum.

vote: katsuki

vote: gandalf

-Scum claim:

It is completely forbidden to claim scum/scum partners, whether you are scum or not.

VOTE: Chesskid

He knows why

[Pine]

I'm thinking Icey has some kind of ability that can only function against people who have voted for them, or something like that.

Vig please.

[Pine]

You always think I'm scum since I played you like a fiddle in TWBB, Icey. It ain't true this time. Your first post is a WIFOM bomb, regardless of your alignment, and at this point, you're the only person who is actually suspicious in any way.

[Pine]

Extend vig request to include Gandalf, please. WIFOM on page 1 is unappealing.

@Icey: Is GreyICE not a part of the IceyCupcake hydra this time around?

[Pine]

Not understanding your (quite stupid) schtick is not grounds for ripping off my face.

Vig request retracted, but scum suspicion added on the grounds of overreaction.

[Pine]

Seriously, SGR is right. Not enough joking here.

UNVOTE x13, VOTE: Pine

Why so Serious?

Do you wanna know how I got these scars?

There's no reason not to intersperse RVS and serious votes when something serious occurs.

[Pine]

^Goodposting.

[Pine]

This is the logical fallacy that Gandalf is guilty of

PE: Oh hey! The creator/founder/whatever of that fallacy is in this game!

[Pine]

No, really, most games, when I catch scum I find them in the first few pages. You yourself have personal experience with my RVS skillz.

I'm not insinuating that RVS cannot lead to scum lynches, I'm saying that RVS is less optimal than non-RVS, and if the game is moving from RVS -> Non-RVS, attempts to halt that progress are anti-town. Also, once again your argument is anecdotal.

This articulates my feelings on the matter quite well. RVS can be useful in lieu of real discussion, but it pales in comparison to matters of substance. And it seems to me that we've already got some things to go on, like Icey's bizarre claim.

PE: InHim's post is quality, though I'm not quite sold on everything it says. Discuss.

[Pine]

I have a simple question, does everyone have at least one damaging ability?

My role PM suggests everyone does.

Rolefishing. Big time.

Responses to this would be "I don't", or "Yes, but a very weak one", or a simple, reserved "Yes" (which would be the equivalent of saying "Oh yeah, plenty! Kill me first."

UNVOTE: Chesskid<--RVS. Getting a (very) mild Townread from Chess.
VOTE: ABR

PE: Icey probably isn't a Wizard with a bunch of powers. They're probably either a weakly-powered, high HP goon supporting the Wizards or a Third Party with unusual goals. Hell, this is Theme Park, they might actually be some form of Jester, counting on our default "lolnojesters" reaction.

Also, your "Mafia don't want to get noticed" thing is complete nonsense. I'm routinely out front regardless of my alignment. It's a play style for most people, not an alignment style.

[Pine]

UNVOTE: Chesskid<--RVS. Getting a (very) mild Townread from Chess.
VOTE: ABR

Do you often qualify your unvotes like this? Why was this explanation necessary?

I do actually qualify my unvotes pretty frequently.

@Zdenek: Mastin came up with that wager himself, not me. THB and I played GreyICE pretty hard core in the second half of the same game. Ever since the big reveal, GI's gunned for me shamelessly in every game we've played together.

I refuse to vote for Icey at this time, on caution that he may have an ability (or even wincon) that triggers if everyone votes for him in one day without lynch, or something crazy like that.

[Pine]

Quiero la sangre de Mana.

Translation for those who don't speak Spanish: "I want/desire the blood of Mana."

Not a fan of posting in another language, even a throwaway line like this.

Toying with jumping on the CMAR wagon, but my gut says something's just off about the whole thing.

More votes on ABR, please.

[Pine]

There are probably some low-powered roles, though. Mine doesn't have a lot of frills, for example.

[Pine]

AND YEAH GUYS PINE IS STILL SCUM

Why?

[Pine]

You're calling us town yet not helping with the voting?

As far as I can tell, the risks involved with following your orders greatly outweight the benefits.

Only if Icey is something other than Town, which you already stated you think they are. So, which is it? Compliance commensurate with your earlier confidence, or fabricated reads?

PE: Ninja'd slightly, though InHim made an observation instead of an analysis.

[Pine]

How does Icey's Jester claim fit into your Town read on them? WIFOM on page one?

[Pine]

I've been saying Jester-like all along. I just got lazy that last time. I've even proposed a couple of theories as to what Jester"like" might mean. It's why I refuse to vote for him today for any reason.

[Pine]

UNVOTE: ABR
VOTE: Soben

Too many inconsistencies.

[Pine]

The two scummiest players, currently, are Pine and implosion.

Pine, what inconsistencies made you vote for Soben?

Care to explain your reads? I find it ironic (and moderately scummy) that you chastise me for being curt with my vote explanation when you make the above statement without any attempt at justifying it.

As for the inconsistencies, Soben got called on them in the dozen or so posts leading up to my vote. RTFT.

[Pine]

21- SGRaaize

[Healthy]

(6) - ManaKu, chesskid3, gandalf5166, Dryfit, LynchMePls, WrathChild

There absolutely has to be scum on this wagon. It built way too quickly and on only mediocre grounds for there not to be. I'm going to do an analysis of how it developed later (though I wouldn't mind if someone else took on the task, busy today, members of the BW need not apply) to see if I can spot the opportunists/bussers.

My read of SGRaaize remains wholly ambivalent. I can see both Town and scum motivations for what he's done so far, none of them strong. If I had to commit, I'd lean a little to the Town side based on the wagon speed.

[Pine]

I don't particularly like Pine as scum this time around

And yet your vote remains on me...don't have a real scumread to put it on?

[Pine]

@ LMP: It's definitely self-serving (@SGR, you can't really declare that it isn't, that assessment isn't for you to make). Not yet sold on it being complete crap, though. I only skimmed it, not wanting to taint my own later analysis with pre-suppositions, but the "No one on my wagon is solidly Town" bit was a red flag. So was that nervous, approval-seeking "Why is everyone ignoring me?" comment.

[Pine]

[Pine]

^^^^^Trite post^^^^^

I've been on-topic and productive all thread. That is (I think) the very first fluff post from me, and it was a not-so-subtle message to stay on topic.

So yeah. Why don't you stop leaping at every tiny opening you imagine. It makes you look like you have an agenda, right from D1.

[Pine]

Zdenek is not reading the thread.
1) I very, very clearly explained why I didn't want to vote for Icey.
2) I misunderstood Gandalf, and once it was explained, retracted it for that reason.
3) I don't know whether CMAR slipped. That could go either way. If it was a slip, it was well-recovered because I can't tell. That's why I was waffling on joining the wagon. If I were scum, I wouldn't have TOLD you that I was uncertain and waffling.
4) The posts were bare minutes apart, following only a few minutes behind the relevant post by Soben. We actually had the same reaction at the same time, and mine goes into greater analysis, which explains the longer writing time.
5) Look at it again. SCR mentioned a couple "slightly Town" reads at best and a whole lot of scum reads on his wagon. It was blatant, self-serving OMGUS.

Pay attention. All of these things were already-stated and/or obvious.

[Pine]

I'm still at work, SGR.

[Pine]

Fairly Positive Town: NO ONE.
Leaning Town: WC
Null: Katy, Mana_Ku, Gandalf, DryFit.
Leaning Scum: InhimshallIbe
Fairly Positive Scum: LynchMePlz

I read it through. I just haven't had time to do an analysis

independent of yours

. And looking back, I did make an error in recollection. Shame on me for going from memory and not looking it up. It's less lopsided than I had thought. Doesn't change the fact that it casts your critics as scummy and does as little as possible to provoke anyone else.

[Pine]

More votes on Soben, please.

Will address the SGR clusterfuck later, just got home.

[Pine]

More votes on Soben, please.

What in particular about my refusal to vote IceyCupcake do you find scummy? What scum-motivation is there behind directly disobeying someone openely claiming a request for votes?

No one suggested that your (wise) decision not to vote Icey had anything to do with the above quote.

[Pine]

Or win and END the game. Of course they'd suggest that their wincon doesn't interfere with Town.

Elaborate on what? You assigned a meaning to a quote that was never even remotely intended. I corrected you. Stop taking me out of context and pretending that I'm obfuscating my intentions.

[Pine]

Elaborate on what? You assigned a meaning to a quote that was never even remotely intended. I corrected you. Stop taking me out of context and pretending that I'm obfuscating my intentions.

You're severely mistaken however if I need to rephrase it I will do so. You ask for more votes on me, then state it has nothing to do with refusing to vote for IceyCupcake, thus the 'elaborate' is for you to explain what reasoning it is for.

It. Didn't.

I've already stated my reasoning on you, and was simply reminding people that you shouldn't be left off the hook.

@Gandalf: Stop being a moron and taking someone with a different wincon at their word.

[Pine]

If his wincon doesn't involve receiving votes, then why is he asking for votes?

Why are you not reading my posts?

I'm suggesting we don't help him because they may be lying about the assertion that the game will continue if the vote goal is achieved.

For example, a Jester's goal is to get lynched. The game ends when they win. If they told you "No, it's okay! Lynch me, I win, game goes on!" you would, apparently, believe that.

[Pine]

Oh FFS. And if the goal of gathering votes is to set off a massive spell that kills everyone else? What then?

God WHY would you help someone who refuses to clarify their intentions, is obv-non-Town, and uses more WIFOM than a truckload of suicide WIFOM bombers.

[Pine]

I don't care. It's unknown, non-Town, and if it's that conditional, presumably powerful. I don't care to risk a Town victory on it.

[Pine]

Not arguing with you about this anymore, Gandalf. They don't share the Town wincon, so I refuse to help them towards whatever goal they have. I intend to see whatever threat they may pose expunged through the damage mechanic or an outright vig kill.

This isn't third party hunting, GI. This is you declaring an extraordinarily suspicious statement right off the bat, telling people your role is jester-like, and thereafter giving only very suspect or very obvious reads.

[Pine]

We are jester-like.

Please always vote us before voting someone else, thanks.

p-edit: CHESS GET YOUR VOTE ON US THANKS. YOU TOO GANDALF.

Page One, FYI. Size of most important bit enlarged.

PE: The flip-flopping you've done on me (Scum, Town, Null-Town, Scum) is suspect. FOS on Gandalf, who is coming off more and more as misguided (and duped) Town is suspect. FOS on Soben is super-obv.

Chesskid, what's your deal? I know you're fishing for reactions, but if you're actually serious, posting a case usually helps.

[Pine]

Christ I'm so frustrated by this game. Icey, your play is so anti-Town it isn't even funny. Frankly, I don't give two shits if you're scum or third party, you

claimed a role that is traditionally anti-Town Third Party

. Also, hunting third party? This is hardly all I've been doing. I've given opinions on ABR, SGR, Soben, and now you. Until I started pushing hard against you, I was Town or null at worst. Now that I'm pointing out the

giant, massive holes in your claim

you suddenly backpedal and switch to a scum read on me.

So go ahead and vote me. I honestly don't give a flying rat's ass. I'm expendable Town, and if my contribution to this game is shaking up Day One and catching even one anti-Town player, I've done more than my duty.

PE: Amrun, I flip out whenever people have shitty reasons for voting for me because I'm actually doing my best as Town, and it

pisses me off

when attention is distracted from actual scum and time is wasted suspecting me.

[Pine]

Removing this game from my bookmarks at least until morning, probably later. I don't think I can reply rationally to you people right now.

[Pine]

Okay, he honestly just stops posting under pressure? I think I might have had a townread on him before, but this is ridiculous.

I stopped posting and removed the bookmark in order to prevent me from breaking my laptop during the paroxysms of anger and frustration I was beginning to experience when reading this thread. Apparently removing it from my bookmarks wasn't enough, as I manually sought it out.

As you can see, I've calmed down significantly since the eruption of idiocy that happened in this thread a few hours ago. Still, I'm going to set this aside (for real now) until morning at the least.

@Soben's other head: That was a very solid post. Setting aside the buddying up to me, you made some excellent points and clearly put some thought into it. That doesn't quite make up for the way your partner hit my scumdar with a sledgehammer, but it does give me pause enough to allow you the chance to redeem yourself. I've been in a hydra where the two heads had problems.

UNVOTE: Soben
VOTE: Albert B. Rampage

Why ABR? There were a couple of early posts that struck me as very off. Soben2 (as I shall be referring to the non-Regfan half) referenced a point I made early on about ABR's rolefishing. It seems that suspicion of ABR was never allayed, but he managed to fade into the woodwork and avoid notice until now. It's time we hear more from him.

[Pine]

I've used my (weak) attack power on IceyCupcake. I encourage everyone who is (wisely) fearful of their waffling between Town-neutral third-party and anti-Town scumminess to do the same.

[Pine]

It isn't the first time. I've consistently said that you're some sort of third party or gambiting scum. I've repeatedly noted and pointed out the flaws in your story.

The waffling is the waffling in your claims. You can't stick to a claim to save your life.

[Pine]

It seems like I'm moving towards a lynch. Someone has to be the first sacrifice, and if it has to be Town, it may as well be me. From this point on, I am treating it as my job to beat the bushes and flush out as many scum as I can.

This also means that I will largely stop defending myself, and will not be answering questions from my scum/anti-Town reads. My Town flip will vindicate this stance and give added credence to my reads for the Town to go after.

I'll start tomorrow morning with a full re-read and begin shaking trees.

PE: I've already answered most of that, Icey, and in accordance with the above policy, will not be wasting my time any further with you. Fear not, you'll be featured and get your answers.

[Pine]

I intend to self-vote and push my lynch when I finish. I have nothing to lose, and Town has everything to gain from this tactic.

Hell, if I'm NOT lynched and flipped to confirm the validity of my reads, it's an exercise in futility.

[Pine]

I'm not even close to L-1. When what I'm prepared to do is complete, I'll be pushing for my own lynch. At that point, the pro-Town thing would be to help it along, even if you think I'm Town

[Pine]

At this point, Soben, nothing I say will be taken seriously by half the players in this game until I flip Town. THAT is why I have to do it. Someone has to be the D1 lynch, and I'd rather is be a near-Vanilla player whose flip will make them more effective than their survival.

Your other two points I've already stated I intend to follow through with in the morning.

[Pine]

I won't take you seriously if and when you flip town. In fact, I will simply ignore all your posts because you will be dead.

This is bad Town-play. When Town dies, you should be going back to see who their reads were and re-considering their positions, because you know

for a fact

that they were honest ones and not scum making shit up. When scum dies, you should be picking apart their posts for hints to their scumbuddies. When SKs (and similar third parties) die, THOSE are the ones you ignore.

I've used my (weak) attack power on IceyCupcake. I encourage everyone who is (wisely) fearful of their waffling between Town-neutral third-party and anti-Town scumminess to do the same.

I don't understand why your vote is on me but you attack IceyCupcake.

I've stated this at least half a dozen times. I refuse to vote for IceyCupcake because I worry about their apparently-vote-fueled power. I've asked for vigging and damaging attacks to be used against them, and used my own piddly 1-point of weapon damage against them. Pay attention.

[Pine]

I would never play this suicidally as scum. It's just not a good idea.

I would link you to games where I've played this way as Town, but at least one is ongoing. I think there's an offsite game like this, I'll find the link when I get home

[Pine]

ETA is a day or so. Today was ridiculously busy, as my family sprang plans on me. I have tomorrow off, and this is my first priority after necessities.

[Pine]

@Amrun: Good/Evil alignment is independent of faction. My role PM explicitly states that it is part of a mechanic and determines how certain abilities affect you.

I, for example, am a Sorcerers-aligned Evil Undead. Undead are always evil. Well, 99.99%

[Pine]

Did I stutter?

I'm a

Wight

, a medium-strength sentient undead created to guard the Sorcerer's Den. I'll full-claim before I die. Basically, I have a weak attack and an interesting but extremely conditional ability.

[Pine]

You were not at L-1...

So? Claiming at L-1 is usually futile unless you claim a Town-critical role. It's my claim, I'll tell it when I feel it is necessary.

[Pine]

Ha! I

thought

it was SH.

[Pine]

I interpreted it as forbidding name claims, rather than role claims.

Well hell, if I'm modkilled we'll find out for sure.

SGR, I have not self-voted, and the overwhelming negative response received to the suggestion is convincing me not to.