[Mini 1205] Tough Guy Mafia - Game Over!

[el simo]

/confirm

[el simo]

Vote: Horrifying Hero

- Long time no see, Mastin.

@Everyone-
1. Do you prefer to be mafia or town?
2. How do you plan to catch the scum?

Scum, I've been town every game on this account, it's getting fustrating.
By lining us up in a suspect line and getting an old lady to pick.

vote: confidanon

for being the only familiar name I recognise.

[el simo]

And what purpose would this specific AtE serve me, as hypothetical scum?

[el simo]

The same purpose any AtE serves.

So by being fustrated I am appealing to some sort of emotion in you that will make it difficult for you to lynch me.

Right..

[el simo]

that and I totally got caught as scum once doing exactly what he's doing (voting for someone becaues they are a better-than-random vote on weak evidence) and don't really feel it's a fair scumtell.

So as scum you got caught doing something in attempts to appear protown, and this is convincing you he is townie or something??

I'm struggling to follow this line of thought.

[el simo]

el simo, do you have any thoughts on the game currently? Do you suspect anybody?

My thought at the moment are centred on Hez. His reasonings seem to imply that he'd think Confid is scum, or scummy, but he dismisses it as it's not 'fair.'

Doesn't seem like town logic..

unvote, vote: HezLucky

[el simo]

So as scum you got caught doing something in attempts to appear protown, and this is convincing you he is townie or something??

I'm struggling to follow this line of thought.

I'm saying that, in that particular game, they got lucky. I HAPPENED to be scum. I don't consider it a scumtell.

My thought at the moment are centred on Hez. His reasonings seem to imply that he'd think Confid is scum, or scummy, but he dismisses it as it's not 'fair.'

Doesn't seem like town logic..

Um, what? Explain that better, because the way you have it worded it is not at all what I am saying.

When I read your post my understand was you got caught as scum voting someone for little next to nothing, to me this move by scum reads as trying to appear pro town, which I do consider a scum tell. I understood it as you saying this is scummy but I'm not going to vote him because I'm upset I got caught when I did it.

[el simo]

So as scum you got caught doing something in attempts to appear protown, and this is convincing you he is townie or something??

I'm struggling to follow this line of thought.

I'm saying that, in that particular game, they got lucky. I HAPPENED to be scum. I don't consider it a scumtell.

My thought at the moment are centred on Hez. His reasonings seem to imply that he'd think Confid is scum, or scummy, but he dismisses it as it's not 'fair.'

Doesn't seem like town logic..

Um, what? Explain that better, because the way you have it worded it is not at all what I am saying.

When I read your post my understand was you got caught as scum voting someone for little next to nothing, to me this move by scum reads as trying to appear pro town, which I do consider a scum tell. I understood it as you saying this is scummy but I'm not going to vote him because I'm upset I got caught when I did it.

I'm not going to vote for him because I don't consider it a scumtell, even though others might. Hence, I understand why they would vote for him.

And if I'm not mistaken, you are voting me for "trying to appear protown". Fair enough. But let us get that first point straight.

Yes I'm aware of that now.

And no, I'm not.

[el simo]

He didn't say "all my other games." He said "every game." Which could be a subtle attempt to reinforce that he's town in this game.

If you want to play subtly, I also said "I've" - that being, past tense - not refering to present time and this game.

My thought at the moment are centred on Hez. His reasonings seem to imply that he'd think Confid is scum, or scummy, but he dismisses it as it's not 'fair.'

Doesn't seem like town logic..

Firstly, Hez only said that one of my points wasn't a fair scumtell. He didn't call the whole case unfair.

Secondly, while I don't agree/support this point, if you honestly believe in it, why didn't you bring it up earlier? And if you found it voteworthy, why didn't you vote him until now?

Why do you think I was asking him the question? I wanted more clarity before I brought it up. I realize now I misunderstood him.

And I didn't, I just wanted to see how he'd respond.

This game.

Way too easy.

Wicked, thanks for giving you one of your buddies. When you die, Yonzy's next.
Care to give us your third?

unvote, vote yonzy

Care to actually explain your reads? That might be useful. Mastin, if you are so certain that I'm scum, why not try to convince others to vote for me or explain why you are voting me?

If I follow their very detailed thought process which they clearly laid out for us, I'd say they think you are Yonzy's partner, guiding him?

[el simo]

And everyone but me is scum until they die, guilty until proven innocent. Some more than others. Page four hasn't separated the others yet, but its starting.

What is the point of this off hand comment? How is this going to help us catch scum? Why say something like this when it has no relevance to the current game content? Really trying to look town aren't ya?

+ scumies for KKN!

unvote: vote Kid Know Nothing

I'm not a fan of avasthearties play so far.

Why do you think I was asking him the question? I wanted more clarity before I brought it up. I realize now I misunderstood him.

Correct me if I'm wrong. You asked HezLucky the question, then, before HezLucky had responded, I asked you who you suspect. You voted HezLucky and explained your point before HezLucky answered your question. If I'm correct, why did you wait until after I asked about your suspicions before you voted? I might be a little bit confused.

I just wanted to show him that I had intent, that my question had an aim.

also, we may not be out of rqs, but what is everyone's experience here on MS? like how many completed games has everyone had?

Been on the site since about 2006, have had about 4 accounts, one of which I can't remember. No idea what my total game count would be.

[el simo]

Nonsense, he asked you if you thought he was personally scum, you avoided answering his question and made a general statement about everyone.

You said so yourself, some more than others, so how much more or less do you think of Lobseter?

[el simo]

So pick the main ones and enlighten us.

[el simo]

First and foremost, Rainbow, I am not a pony.

Secondly, sorry I have been posting all that often, God honest truth is I've just been procastinating, and the more I left it the more work it was to catch up with.

Thirdly, holy shit lots of talking about absolutely nothing has been going on. This has probably been one of the most hardest (see: boring) reads I've had to do :s

Lastly, and most importantly, my goodness, learn to present a case with out huge giant walls of quotes. Be concise, be accurate, don't waffle for fucks sake and if an argument is going in circles there is no point continuing it. Hez and Yank are clearly getting no where and yes their entire argument has been incredibly antiproductive - infact it is the single reason why I have been procrastinating so much.

More often than not stuff like this gets a townie killed day one and then another townie autolynched day two for leading the wagon. I don't know what you and Hez are but neither of you are good day one lynches based purely on that.

Mastin has concluded that it's mostly Hez-Yank fighting, and he further concluded it was painfully townVtown

QFT

---

Now, my current thoughts on the game - nothing has happened of significance since about page 6, namely because of Hez and Yank, so most of the content I've got will come before then.

KKN's pressure vote was clearly a failed ploy. He received no reactions (because he placed a pressure vote but then proceeded to ignore it all together, thus defusing any possible pressuring aspect to it) and then buckles when pressured about it himself, voting avast because he questioned the validity of keeping a pressure vote on when it was clearly doing nothing. Hell his case on Yonzy was better, but he insists on avast. This comes off to me as scum failing in an attempt to try be a clever townie pressuring players and gauging results.

HH's confidence shown on page 6 doesn't equate to the case he provided just recently. Hell I gave no reaction to your claim either, but you give no mention of me, in fact you listed me as townie. So what the only difference between us is that he asked random questions, which clearly isn't a scum tell and happens (much to my dismay) in pretty much every game I've played in the last few years. In fact, when he does bring it up, he suggests what would seem like the towniest thing to do, and that is just to ignore your claim and continue playing as we'd normally do (which is what I did). + huge scummies for HH.

For the moment I'm happy with my vote on KKN, have no problem moving it to HH though.

[el simo]

But that would put you at an equal count.

Or were you suggesting that you wouldn't be a mislynch?

Interesting advice HH.

[el simo]

And to be frank your confidence means little so far, considering what it's brought to the table so far.

[el simo]

And to be frank your confidence means little, considering what it's brought to the table so far.

[el simo]

simo, What's your read on ViFam and bobsnox (whose latest posts were in between my arguments)?

bobsnox is my most town read, ViFam I don't like, can't say why I'd have to reread him in ISO.

[el simo]

Eeep sorry guys I've fallen sick, last thing I want to do now is think coherently.

[el simo]

bobsnox is my most town read, ViFam I don't like, can't say why I'd have to reread him in ISO.

Why is bobsnox a townread for you?[/quote]

Yeah this view is outdated now and was based off reading his single posts - not linking them with his others (basically because I was being lazy). Reading his ISO I wasn't impressed. More specifically his last vote on Yank shot him way up my scum list. Way to actively lurk, not to mention I consider policy lynches incredibly anti-town and subsequently incredibly scummy. Infact I have no problem lynching him today, and so I

unvote

and

vote: bobsnox.

His voting has been wishy washy, he seems to have a habit of forgetting why he is voting people, his has provided pretty much nothing to any discussions and is just jumping from one vote to another.

Similarly, my views on KKN have changed. Although what I consider his pressure vote scummy (or should I say, his explanation after it), it's hardly damning, at all. KKN moves down my scum list!

Also don't really understand el simo's case on Hez. Hez is a strong town read at this point.

Ah yes, this stemmed from a misunderstanding on my part, I beleive I said so a few posts later.

Nothing new from HH so he stays second on my list.

I reckon Yank is probably most town for me, Hez probably second most. Anyone I haven't mentioned is probably just because I haven't read them, or I did but just didn't notice anything. If you want my thoughts on them let me know and I'll do a read, but if not the names I've mentioned so far are the only ones that concern me for the time being.

Scum list would be bob, HH, KKN.

There is a significant difference between bob and KKN, so don't take that as me being willing to lynch him today - I'm not.

[el simo]

Eep I've heard lots of talk about Wicked but I'm not seeing any posts where people actually say why he is scummy, mind filling me in?

[el simo]

I wonder who his 7th will be..?

[el simo]

Probably me actually.

[el simo]

vote

I'm good with my vote el simo. Is there a good case against you I should be interested in?

Well a lot of people have listed me as top scum but no ones provided reasons yet.

[el simo]

Someone mind filling me in on why Wicked is scummy? I still haven't seen a case on him.

[el simo]

I could bite into an avast lynch, still haven't seen anything condemning about Wicked. Would still highly prefer bob I struggle to understand how anyone can rate him as town.

[el simo]

I've already claimed avast. Nobody has presented me with a case on Wicked, despite asking numerous times.

[el simo]

Yes that is what everyone is saying, let's lynch Wicked because he has relationships with scummy people A, B and C. It doesn't make sense to lynch him over that, we don't even know the set up yet and we already deducing that he is everyoens partners. Lynch scum first, find buddy later!

[el simo]

No that isn't what you are doing. You just said so yourself, the problem is his connections with other players you find scummy that makes him scummy. How about we find out if those guys are scum first before we start drawing these connections. It is irresponsible to say Person A is scum because he is buddying to Person B who is scummy as hell. Let's first find out if Person B is scummy before string up Person A, that is the only sensible thing to do.

I really do not understand this Wicked wagon.

Bob needs to die, I'll settle for avast though.

[el simo]

No that isn't what you are doing. You just said so yourself, the problem is his connections with other players you find scummy that makes him scummy. How about we find out if those guys are scum first before we start drawing these connections. It is irresponsible to say Person A is scum because he is buddying to Person B who is scummy as hell. Let's first find out if Person B is scum before string up Person A, that is the only sensible thing to do.

I really do not understand this Wicked wagon.

Bob needs to die, I'll settle for avast though.

[el simo]

Also my reads are different from everyone elses, they're different from yours. Which don't make sense, you repeatedly slam bobs posts but still rate him as townie. And HH has done nothing this entire game but dribble and you calling him town as well.

[el simo]

Avast should probably claim as I'm willing to hammer.

[el simo]

@Mod: No access over weekend.

[el simo]

Wicked has at least made some contribution now (I'll decide how much I like it during the night if I don't before).
el simo has not.
When you get back over the weekend could you please link me to where you have claimed and make some nice useful detailed posts.
UNVOTE: VOTE: el simo

Right here buddy, a whopping single post before he asked who I'd vote. I also stated will to hammer afterwards. Don't blame me for your lack of care in reading.

As for not having contributed, I've made three cases, no ones listened, I have contributed.

Catching up from the weekend storm you lot posted:

• Rainbow and Lobster make me happy, we need to lynch bob.
  
• Avast needs to grow a pair and put his vote where his mouth is, seeing as he's claimed bob if obvscum.
  
• Tar needs to stop waffling.
  
• HH needs to start posting.
  
• I'm still willing to hammer avast if we need to before deadline. I'd prefer bob but avast as an alternative is a pretty good option, not moving my vote until I absolutely have to.

[el simo]

HH, although I disagree with a lot of your 'scum tone' tells (as I reckon you could say that about any post if you break it down enough) and a few other things, there are two statements buried in that wall that have me convinced.

"I don't believe that you are capable of doing this. Try and prove me wrong."
The ultimate scumclaim, challenging us. He denies our ability, not the truth that he isn't scum. Town wants truth. Scum want logic debates.

...Yeah, we don't see any names in there, either. And if Wicked got to L-2 with no scum voting him, that makes him what?
Oh, yeah. Confirmed scum.

For me these are the two damning tells that you have found.

I know I started and pushed the wagon on bob, but I'd be damned if I'm allowing a lynch to form that quickly on someone with out anyone mentioning as much as even why they're voting him.

unvote, vote: Wickedestjr

It's Tuesday in NZ in less than 3 hours and I'm not sure on what timezone the mod is going by so this will probably be my last post before the deadline, busy day at uni tomorrow. Not looking forward to catching up to all the implicated's response posts when I get home...

[el simo]

I know I started and pushed the wagon on bob, but I'd be damned if I'm allowing a lynch to form that quickly on someone with out anyone mentioning as much as even why they're voting him.

In my post 417 I show all the comments regarding me made by the players voting me. What makes my original bandwagon any different? You should note that while I didn't get the votes as quickly as bobsnox, I did get more votes. Even

you

acknowledged that you hadn't seen points against me, earlier. But the same thing happens to your top suspect and you switch your vote partially because of it.

More later. This case is pretty weak, though.

Relevance is? I was never voting you and I wasn't going to because of the lack of a substantial case on you.

[el simo]

I know I started and pushed the wagon on bob, but I'd be damned if I'm allowing a lynch to form that quickly on someone with out anyone mentioning as much as even why they're voting him.

In my post 417 I show all the comments regarding me made by the players voting me. What makes my original bandwagon any different? You should note that while I didn't get the votes as quickly as bobsnox, I did get more votes. Even

you

acknowledged that you hadn't seen points against me, earlier. But the same thing happens to your top suspect and you switch your vote partially because of it.

More later. This case is pretty weak, though.

Relevance is? I was never voting you and I wasn't going to because of the lack of a substantial case on you.

You voted me in your last post. Post 533.

Yes, because now there is a substantial case on you.

[el simo]

Yes, but your case A) outweighs bobs and B) indicates bob as town.

Rdash's (your supposed buddy) instant support of your claim suggests to me that it may not be authentic. Nobody else seems to care so far, so that strikes me as a pretty telling action. You also have been as uncop like as you can get in a mafia game, you have nothing to support your claim with other than your claim itself. I don't have a problem continuing with your lynch today.

[el simo]

Are you freaking kidding me? It doesn't work both ways. A miller implies a cop, but a cop in now way implies that there is a miller in the game. How about you actually do some decent scumhunting instead of trying to confirm your scumread based off of weak fluff?

He isn't saying that a cop implies there is a miller and that argument is irrelevant to what he is saying. He is saying that you, as a cop, wouldn't have ignored or doubted the presence of a claimed miller.

Like I said before, you haven't played a cops game. I don't buy the claim and I intensely suspect RDashes sudden change after I called him out for so blatently supporting your claim.

What was wrong with your defence is that I disagree with it. It's not worth arguing over because the argument is essentially boils down to us saying you did something scummy and you saying that scummy thing isn't actually scummy.

I wouldn't be opposed to a Vifam lynch.

[el simo]

Why RDash over Vifam?

[el simo]

If HH is scum and these claims are true, well then fuck.

vote: Vifam

He's at L-1.

[el simo]

Yeah seriously don't see you investigating ConfidAnon, why didn't you investigate Avast??

Vote: Wickedestjst

[el simo]

Yup still happy with my vote.

[el simo]

@HezLucky, Horrifying Hero, and el simo- If I'm scum, what is the advantage of lynching me today instead of a few days later?

Your presence would distract the town.

If you're scum I don't want you alive, giving you the chance to distort our thoughts and even possibly prevent your lynching.

[el simo]

Wait, why am I scum over Avast?

[el simo]

Also if you think Wicked is scum you have pretty good reason to think I am town - these two roles can't coincide.

[el simo]

Our stong town-read on El Simo revolves around his attitude and actions throughout this game matching up perfectly with our previous town-meta on him

I don't recall this.

Was this one of the games I flaked on and replaced out?

---

Yeah I plan on rereading over avast and Lob this weekend. Sorry for my inactivity, I'm absolutely swamped with work atm, teaching a school while attending university (in which we are currently doing mid-terms for) does not make for lots of free time. How ever this is the last week of uni before they break up, so while I will still be teaching I should have a lot more free time from the uni break.

[el simo]

Struggling to follow that post lew..

My hypothetical scum buddy, Wicked, FoS me instead of voting because he didn't want to lynch me, even though there never was a wagon on me, and you don't know his role yet? Huh?

[el simo]

Town Simo has a tendacy to spend time arguing semantics rather than fully focus on scumhunting, in Mini 1061 he got into a massive play style argument with Retrospective that created a great deal of noise, both of them were town. He started of this game in a similar pattern with his questioning of how AtE is considered to be a scum-tell and what scum motivation would be allocated with it when questioning Yank.

Yeah I can't argue with this. I think it would also be wise to note that the attacks on me lurking on not doing much also fit into that specific iso, I ended up replacing out just from pure laziness.

With that said, I don't want to replace out of this game, so like I promised when I have more time over the weekend and the next two weeks I will do my catch up and post more.

For now though.

unvote

.

[el simo]

No I'm a liar that one was because I was leaving overseas nvm.

[el simo]

Reread:

If I were the cop in this game, I'd probably have tried to lynch HH just so I wouldn't have to deal with him later. But that approach is probably high unorthodox so I can't use it as a basis to say what Wicked did wasn't in the interests of a cop. So I'm going to largely ignore this part of the game until later.

Rereading Yonzy knowing he is scum makes his posts seem so clear cut scummy, should've picked up on this yesterday!

Wicked and Lobster have a lot of coaching interactions with Yonzy, + scummies!

Bobs interactions with Yonzy make him pretty clear cut town in my books, ish yesterday wasn't a good day for me.

Upon review, I strongly disagree with Avasts case on KKN. He was completely over exagerating the situation. I'm feeling might embarrased right about now, 4 pages in and I've flipped on 3 views I had during those 4 pages originally.. +++ scummies!!

Vifams post about scum being on the KKN wagon is revealing.. Since 3 of 5 of them are confirmed town and I'm also town that makes the only possible target Avast, one of my top suspects from the reread. + scummies!

Vifam makes a case against Lobster but does nothing to pursue it, interesting! + scummies

Bob makes a good point about the connection between Vifam and Yank. Even better now that we know Vifam was scum, huge town points for Yank.

Avast was pretty quick to buddy Vifam. + scummies

Friends brief appearance is striking, in his one post he attacks two of my three biggest suspects, I highly doubt he would've bussed both his partners as scum, so I'm assuming one of Wicked, Avast or Yank would be his partner. It's obv not Yank so that leaves Wicked or Avast. Interesting!! Yes this is assuming Lob is scum, because well, I do assume Lob is scum.

Lobster also buddies Vifam with a townie rating. + scummies - Avast and Lob doing a good job of trying to get rid of Vifams scummy vibe from Yonzy.

So Wicked is pretty sure about his case on Avast. This makes me wtf his choice of night investgation. He is either bad cop or scum!

Interesting to note, all four of Wicked, Lob, Avast and Vifam were voting different wagons by post 439.

Lobster was trying to stop the Avast wagon pretty hard, I'm starting to see some strong reoccuring patterns here!

There is definitely scum on the Bob wagon at the end of day 1, no wagon grows that fast with out scum. Even more interestingly enough both Avast and Lobster were pushing that wagon!

I pretty much stopped reading after this, I have enough information.

Lewarcher and LobsterCatapult are the remaining scum.

vote: LobsterCatapult

Who is Magua replacing?

[el simo]

^ for those of you who missed it, as it's not that clear.

My reads on Lob and Avast come from their strong interactions with Yonzy and Vifam and I tie them together as the remaining scum team through their votes and bandwagons.

[el simo]

I'd like to ask you why your slot is voting el simo-town instead of Lobster Catapult-scum.

Because I haven't been 'active' enough.

[el simo]

HH's miller claim is concerning for several reasons, even if it was retracted. For one, he retracted it very soon after he made it AND very early in the game. Which means he gained virtually nothing from it. Meaning it was pure fluff. Another thing that bothers me about HH: He's still pushing hard for a Wicked lynch despite the claim. I admit I have my doubts about Wicked's claim myself, but this doesn't change the fact that the best course of action which is to wait one day and see how things turn out. Pushing an un-CCed PR lynch is very concerning (as he very well might be our last PR). Everyone on his wagon deserves some suspicion (for now), but

especially

HH.

I don't see the point in this. HH is pretty much confirmed town, they came out of absolutely no activity and almost independantly nailed and lynched scum, I've never seen scum bus like this.

[el simo]

This slot is downright stupid.

The way you are speaking suggests you seem to be completely certain that Wicked is town.

Yeah, right.

Unvote, Vote: fenix

"Oh no you disagree with me, die scum!"

[el simo]

@ El Simo -

I never thought I would say this but Hez actually does have a point. In #731 Fenix says he doesn't know what to make of the Wickeds claim, says he has suspicion towards Wicked but doesn't think it's best to pursue today however finds those pushing him suspicious. In #733 he states that voting a PR claim is suspicious. In #736 he says he doesn't believe Wickeds claim fully but again doesn't want him lynched.

Essentially he's being incredibly wish washy over his thoughts of Wickeds claim and his suspicions over those pushing Wickeds lynch and refrains from stating how we'll have a better read on Wicked tomorrow (Hint: Him living doesn't lead towards him being confirmed mafia).

None of this is what Hez said.

[el simo]

I side with Fenix on this, he has should consistency with his views, what is the problem?

[el simo]

I side with Fenix on this, he has

shown

consistency with his views, what is the problem?

[el simo]

He has consistently expressed caution about the claim and has stated that he doesn't want him lynched today.

Why does suspecting people who want to lynch him, when he clearly doesn't want to, make him a liar?

Capital letters doesn't make you right, it just shows us how rash you are being.

[el simo]

@ Fenix -

You're saying the following:

I suspect Wicked and don't fully believe his claim.
I don't want to lynch him today because my read on him isn't strong enough to guarantee that he's mafia.
I'm cautious around power roles and like to leave them till later.
I suspect the people that want to lynch him because of point 2.

Fixed.

[el simo]

Who is Fenix replacing anyhow?

[el simo]

What I cannot understand is his suspicions of other players being less cautious when dealing with PR's if

he agrees with the scum-read on the PR and the points put forward against him.

I still find voting for potential PRs scummy even if their suspicions say otherwise. If your scumdar ever pings 90% without a mod-confirm then your scumdar's broken.

[el simo]

Secondly, Vifam said that el simo was one of the options he thought was worth looking into, however, he never (unless I missed something) interacted with el simo. This could be because he was scum, but he did interact with his other two suspects, LobsterCatapult and bobsnox. Vifam called el simo's vote for KKN opportunistic, but there was no followup even after el simo elaborated on the vote for KKN. You could say this was because Vifam was scum, but if that's the case, why did he get in an exchange with his other suspect, bobsnox, who was town?

This is a lie, I was the first person to push Vifams lynch over Rainbowdashes and did state that I was comfortable lynching him.

[el simo]

Because bobsnox was my strongest scum read?

[el simo]

Reply more later, I'm late for class.

[el simo]

Wicked, you are hugely underplaying the strength of the Lobster/Vifam/Avast connection, as me and Ethos have both seperately noted, there is a lot more than you are showing.

Your first point against me is nonsense, how does, "It sounds like a legit reason to vote el simo" come off as having knowledge that I am scum? He isn't even commenting on my alignment, he is specifically refering to the logic used in his argument when voting me. His post doesn't even mention alignment.

Saying that Vifam didn't look into me after expressing suspicion is biased, because Vifam didn't follow up his suspicion of Hez, RDash and bob either. He was just a bad player.

I lost interest in Vifam because in my next post, as I promised I would, I reread bobsnox and pushed for his lynch, as I did for the rest of the day. Also I was the first to advocate lynching Vifam over RDash when you claimed.

Lastly, I do entirely beleive that the Vifam wagon was all town. Why is this hard to believe, we lynched scum and we did it pretty fast, after forming 5 other wagons.

Interactions Between el simo and tarsonisocelot:

tl;dr my connection is that there is a lack of a connection. Essentially I'm scum because Tarsonis is apparently scum, which just doesn't make sense. I've had minimal interactions and haven't explained my views on Yank, Hez, Magua and RDash. Are they all my partners too?

Lobster needs to die already, maybe then Wicked will drop this nonsense.

[el simo]

This is a lie, I was the first person to push Vifams lynch over Rainbowdashes and did state that I was comfortable lynching him.

Uh... no. Your comments regarding Vifam consist of:

bobsnox is my most town read, ViFam I don't like, can't say why I'd have to reread him in ISO.

I wouldn't be opposed to a Vifam lynch.

Why RDash over Vifam?

...and that's it. I hardly call that pushing for the Vifam lynch. You never even called him scum. You said you didn't like him and you wouldn't be opposed to his lynch. And you never even brought up any points against Vifam. How can you push for a player's lynch without bringing up any points against that player? You can't. You were most certainly not pushing for Vifam's lynch.

Stop trying to get the town points.

Why would I need to bring up points against him, HH had covered everything. I was the first person to suggest lynching Vifam over RDash, you can't say otherwise. If I have to explain to everyone how unbelievably illogical and scummy the bolded part is I'm going to cry.

Because bobsnox was my strongest scum read?

You misread my point. I was talking about Vifam.

No I didn't. Why would I focus on Vifam when I had a stronger read? I was pushing bob, that's why I didn't go back and read over Vi.

Your first point against me is nonsense, how does, "It sounds like a legit reason to vote el simo" come off as having knowledge that I am scum? He isn't even commenting on my alignment, he is specifically refering to the logic used in his argument when voting me. His post doesn't even mention alignment.

Uh... no. Yonzy defended ConfidAnon's vote by saying:

Imo it seemed liek a legit reason to vote El simo..

I would've done the same thing

, and even if it wasn't, he had reason for his suspicion.. so there's really no need to vote him.

He says he would've voted you too, which implies suspicion of you, but he didn't ever vote you.

You aren't answering my question. How does his implied suspicion come off as having knowledge that I am scum? This point is reaching at its best.

Saying that Vifam didn't look into me after expressing suspicion is biased, because Vifam didn't follow up his suspicion of Hez, RDash and bob either. He was just a bad player.

Uh... no. He said he wanted to direct the scumhunting towards LC, bob, and you. He did question bobsnox in several of his posts, he directed a whole post towards LobsterCatapult at least partially explaining his suspicion, justifying his reasons, and questioning the things she said, but he never questioned you, brought up one point against you, and didn't even explain the point.

Uh... yes. His 'questioning' of bobsnox consisted of telling him that HH wasn't going to be voted when he voted him and asking him who he though was scum, as was the entire post focused on Lob. All those posts were also made before he asked us to move our scum hunting too, in which after his only case post was "case incoming," so none of his suspicions were explained after he stated them.

He never questioned me because I wasn't voting HH, like the other two he questioned were. Those 'questions' are hardly explaining suspicion as they are telling him them to stop voting HH. <- Now that is a link between players, confirmed scum telling other players not to vote HH. Confirmed not saying anything about someone

isn't a connection.

tl;dr my connection is that there is a lack of a connection. Essentially I'm scum because Tarsonis is apparently scum, which just doesn't make sense. I've had minimal interactions and haven't explained my views on Yank, Hez, Magua and RDash. Are they all my partners too?

Uh.... NO! There's a pretty noticeable difference between your interactions and views of each of these players and your interactions and view of tarsonisocelot. Early in the game, you seriously voted HezLucky got into an exchange with him and didn't change your vote until about 40 posts later. You expressed suspicion of Rainbowdash at the end of day 1 for believing my claim. And, while you, admittedly, don't pay much attention to YankCane, you at least mentioned him in your reread post and comment on the HezLucky vs. YankCane exchange.

My interactions with tarsonis?

There are none.

It's entirely based off

her

interactions with me. This is completely illogical reasonings. Also, in the following post, because I actually only now just looked at the posts you linked, am going to rip up the shit you call a connection.

[el simo]

Firstly, let me remind you of earlier when I voted tarsonisocelot for not doing any scumhunting, giving any thoughts, or seriously voting/suspecting anybody. tarsonisocelot defended against this case by saying this was her playstyle and said that this was because she needs more information. However, that didn't stop tarsonisocelot from seriously voting el simo in her post 41. Later she says that it was because his supposed AtE bothered her more than anyone else at the time. If that was the case, why wasn't she able to seriously vote anybody later in the game until we got more information to work with? It's because her vote for el simo was an early distancing vote. Otherwise, her behavior early in the game made no sense if she's town.

This is the first point Wicked makes in favour of the tar/simo connection.

It is saying that her serious vote on me makes no sense as town as she claimed later in the game that her playstyle is to get more information before expression suspicions.

tars - according to you, who's scum?

I don't know yet. Maybe yankcane, the points about their reaction to HH's gambit seem valid.
I do have a bad feeling about Wicked, but I want to wait a few RL days before deciding if that's actually merited by the tone/content of their posts or whether it's a knee-jerk reaction to them voting for me while saying "I have a case and I won't tell you!".
Maybe yonzy, the "Is it still RVS? I didn't notice! vote:random" thing was odd.

Wicked, it's a bit early in the game to claim anything definite based on a lack of stated suspicions. I never know what to do as any alignment early game and need more information than you appear to to develop a list of reads.

I ask questions to get people to clarify what they mean and provide more information to evaluate them on. And I try to ask in a non-confrontational manner where possible, so you are likely to find conditional words in my question sentences - to HH, who still has not explained their Wicked vote, for example.

This is the post where she says she needs more information before forming suspicions. Relevant part is bolded.

Wicked claims that this didn't stop her from making a serious vote on me in post 41.

VOTE: el simo

1. I see the game as a massive probability tree that branches at every role and every outcome possible. As scum then I begin with several of the most important branches already set. The aim is always to end up in the set of branches where the win condition is set, and it's easier to work out which set that is when you know the more of the set-up. Both are challenging but I currently prefer scum more because I enjoy trying to convince others to head down the paths that lead to my win condition over trying to work out which paths those are.
2. With magnets. And by trying to keep track of inconsistencies.

This is post 41. The serious vote she made against me came on page 2 and with not additional information, just a vote and some answers to the RQs. Right.. super cereal!

Asked to explain it, Wicked says that it was because my supposed AtE bothered her more than anyone else at the time, and that this is inconsistent with her post later on page 6 where she says she needs more information before expressing her suspicion, therefore it must be a scum distancing vote.

I didn't have any strong feelings about any player at the time, and the "I've been town every other game on this account" thing bothered me more than anything else that had happened at that point. As post 35 had already explained why one might dislike that post, and I was at the time pretty much apathetic about everything I didn't state my reasons.

It's not a post I would lynch for, but it is one I would vote for to see if the reaction was worth lynching for.

My lack of commitment at the time pretty much stopped me from actually doing anything useful though.

This is her explanation of her vote on me. The bolded part is relevant. She says it is something she would vote for to see if the reactions meritted my lynching.

This was a pressure vote, she was fishing for reactions as she clearly explained. This is exactly what she said she needed to do before forming any suspicions, she was looking for more information on me! How is this inconsistent with her claims on page 6?

In his first point on our connection Wicked has over stated his evidence, claiming serious votes during RVS and relevantly leaves out important information, such as the fact that her vote on me was fishing as that would ruin his case on me.

---

His second point against me is that tar never explained her null read on me when she was asked for her thoughts on four players.

[Secondly, in post 322 tarsonisocelot gives her reads on four of the players because she was asked to (IIRC). el simo is one of the players tarsonisocelot gave her read of. My issue with this post is that, unlike the other three reads, tarsonisocelot doesn't justify her el simo nullread- it's IIoA. This reeks of scum reluctant to give a read on their scumbuddy.

Here are his exact words and here are tars exact words on me:

el simo - null,

most of the activity was around the start of the game

when they were targetted for saying they'd been town every other game on this account,

lurky since they stopped being attacked, little scumhunting.

Does this not explain why she has a null read on me? Is this not enough justification for you? She's clearly stated that I was lurking, but had done some little scum hunting. She did explain her null read.

---

His third point is that Tar votes me three times with out explaining it or pushing it further.

Thirdly, you'll notice that throughout the course of the game, tarsonisocelot has voted el simo three times. She voted him in her post 41 but never did explain the vote or express suspicion of el simo, despite stating her vote was serious later. There was also no followup to the vote and she never asked el simo any questions (which is odd considering she had her vote on him) until this post where she finally switched her vote. She votes el simo again in post 496 but removes the vote immediately after el simo responds here and states that she didn't really even remember her reasoning. tarsonisocelot votes el simo a third time in post 644 but this vote doesn't come until after LobsterCatapult expresses suspicion of him and votes him first. tarsonisocelot uses bandwagoning as a point to justify this vote but never mentioned the point earlier. What's worse is that tarsonisocelot does nothing with this vote. el simo asks her about the case before defending and tarsonisocelot never elaborates which shows that she doesn't actually care about el simo defending himself. She switched her vote before even seeing a defense from him. I strongly get the impression that tarsonisocelot is desperately trying to distance herself from her scumbuddy.

Firstly, as we have established, Wickeds definition of a serious vote is pretty loose. Her serious vote against me in post 41 was a reaction vote like she explained later. So this vote is null for his argument.

The second vote against me was an entire misunderstanding.

The third vote, she expressed legitimate suspicion and removed it once Ethos gave her an explanation of their meta read on me.

And this implies desperately distancing to you? She desperately is trying to distance herself from me with an unexplained reaction vote on page 2, a misunderstanding and a legitimate vote?

---

Fourthly, one of the more important points, IIRC, el simo has completely ignored tarsonisocelot throughout the whole game and only interacted with her when defending himself from her votes. I don't know what his read of tarsonisocelot is. If you're too lazy to read through his iso, you can just look at his catchup post to get a good idea. There's no mention of tarsonisocelot in it.

This is the last point on me, basically I've said nothing about her the entire game.

What can I say, she's been extremely inactive - as was I until recently. My attention has been focused on who I think is scum, she hasn't done anything to grab my attention and I don't buy that inactivity equates to scumminess. Why should I interact with her when I could be lynching scum? This point is null.

---

To summarise, he is wrong about the legitmacy of all four points, and even if he wasn't the connection he is making out isn't as strong as he is suggesting.

Tonight Wicked will investigate me and tomorrow he will tell you all he got innocent but it's ok I must just be the godfather then.

[el simo]

Opps, I PM'd Amon saying we had reached a lynch

[el simo]

[

@all of you trying to push connections only cases:

they don't work. In order for someone to be scummy they have to have something they have done which is scummy. Connections should sway the vote with a strength proportional to the connection, but they are not in and of themselves reasons for votes. Please stop this illogical non-sense. Also, to those of you pushing for "If X is mafia, Y is mafia" cases: they don't work either. It's a giant WIFOM sandwich that scum love to screw you with. Logical deductions are perfectly fine (top three suspects, if one isn't scum the other two likely are, etc.), but even still, half of the case is useful AFTER a flip, and the other half is mostly fluff/skewing opinions.

QFT - the reread I did was based on Ethos' findings on the two, thus my case was meant to consolidate his.

Also: I hope the Magua + me business is a joke, I can't really tell. This last page is confusing me.

[el simo]

Which is why I'm so certain with the Lobster/whoeverreplacedavast scum team!

[el simo]

Bodyguard

He can choose to protect a player during the night and if that player is targetted than the bodygaurd dies instead.

I think the bodygaurd was chosen as apposed to protecting someone however, and the hider was hiding behind him. Otherwise we'd have two factions at work and I'm doubtful that is the case.

Waiting on Wickeds investigation before doing anything - interesting how his confirmed town wasn't killed..

[el simo]

That would make more sense, but I've never seen that happen, and can the hider kill as well? I'm not sure he can?

[el simo]

Yeah I'm VT.

Hez' scum flip is surprising he was one of the few who I was certain of being town.

A process of elimination leaves me with two suspects: Krazy and Fenix.

I can't see HH being scum, tar and Ethos are confirmed, Wicked is cop.

Oh those two suspects I'm most comfortable with a Fenix lynch, based pretty much on Avasts play.

Why Krazy over Fenix, HH?

[el simo]

I swear I've posted this three times now.

I'm a VT.

The only confirmed town, if Wicked is a cop, is Ethos, Wicked, and tarson. I find it odd that HH would claim miller now of all times to claim miller.

I don't understand this fustration coming from a townie.

A quick read of your short iso reveals that you haven't claimed at all, not until this post.
Also, there has been one mention of your name so far, so you shouldn't be feeling fustrated anyway.

vote: Fenix

I'm comfortable that he is our last scum.

[el simo]

Huh? Why would scum be scared of Wicked if the town want to lynch him?

[el simo]

Ah right completely forgot that he could've got a guilty, gotcha now!

[el simo]

Well it is entirely possibly that the BG took the bullet for someone and the hider was hiding behind the BG. In that situation both would die from one night kill.

[el simo]

Good question!

[el simo]

By the by I believe Wickeds claim because of how Hez pushed his lynch yesterday. <- Just thought I'd throw that in there.

[el simo]

Yeah end the day we're not discussing anything anyway.

[el simo]

I don't see you doing any discussing either.

[el simo]

Yay

[el simo]

In that situation I would have voted Tarson I think.

[el simo]

HezLucky played a really good scum game. That flip surprised me, though in retrospect "guysguysguysguyslynchYanklynchYanklynchYank" should've been a clue or something.

Totally, Hez was one of the few people I had pegged as conftown from early in the game. I'd have never lynched him!