[Mini 1205] Tough Guy Mafia - Game Over!

[Wickedestjr]

/confirm

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: Horrifying Hero

- Long time no see, Mastin.

@Everyone-
1. Do you prefer to be mafia or town?
2. How do you plan to catch the scum?

[Wickedestjr]

Horrifying Hero, are you just a normal miller or a death miller?

Everyone, rvs is now over.

Why's that?

Also, can you answer my questions, please?

[Wickedestjr]

This is the part of the game where we shift from randomness to game theory regarding my slot.

I doubt that a discussion about your claim would get us out of RVS. Twice I've seen a player claim miller and both times I think everyone agreed to just forget about the miller claim and judge that player's allignment based on their play. I don't really think a discussion is necessary and I believe that we should just continue the game as normal.

Do you think it was wise for us to claim at this point, or perhaps should we have waited? Do you trust our claim, or not?

If you are actually a miller, then I believe it

was

best for you to claim at this point rather than when the cop claims to have a guilty on you. The miller claim is a null tell for me (although I could easily imagine Mastin suggesting it after seeing the outcome of this game ).

[Wickedestjr]

@HezLucky-
1. I don't want any pie.
2. You've lost your scum LAZZZZZZZZER.

Now

how do you catch the scum? (serious question)

[Wickedestjr]

Explain.

[Wickedestjr]

ARE YOU MAKING FUN OF ME FOR PANTS ON HEAD OPEN 302?

It wasn't meant to be offensive. I meant to say:

2. Imagine you've lost your scum LAZZZZZZZZER. Now how do you catch the scum? (serious question)

Vote: YankCane151

EXCELLENT POST THAT TRIES TO LOOK USEFUL AND NOT OFFEND ANYONE.

Can you elaborate/explain this please? Thanks.

Yonzy, why no random vote?

I have more to say in a few minutes.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm going to

Unvote. Vote: ConfidAnon

for this:

Scum, I've been town every game on this account, it's getting fustrating.
By lining us up in a suspect line and getting an old lady to pick.

The first line seems a little off. It smells slightly like an off-handed comment to make us feel like simo is town using slight AtE. It's not a lynch-worthy case at this point, but it's a better than random vote.

Also, you'd seriously trust an old lady? Her eyesight is probably terrible!

UNVOTE: Horrible Hero
VOTE: el simo

Firstly, the point he uses against el simo seems really weak/invalid. I don't see how saying he's been town in all of his other games is meant to imply he's town this game. Secondly, there's no reason for him to add the phrase "It's not a lynch-worthy case at this point, but better than an RV." unless he's scum giving himself room to backpedal. Finally, he adds a jokey reason to his vote despite already having a serious reason. The vote feels off.

[Wickedestjr]

I missed this:

The same purpose any AtE serves.

FoS: YankCane

So do you agree with ConfidAnon's point? Because you answered ConfidAnon's question for him about his point against el simo, but you haven't exactly said whether or not you agree with the point. It looks like IIoA. Suspicious.

[Wickedestjr]

It still doesn't make sense. You either agree with ConfidAnon's point or you don't. If you didn't agree with it, then your post 37 seems out of place.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP: And if you did agree with ConfidAnon's point then your post 37 is strange because you don't say you agree with the point despite adding to it which would be IIoA.

[Wickedestjr]

[quote="HezLucky']Yes I can. Most people in this game have had a little bit of fun and randomness to your answers, but YankCane seems to think he'll get town cred by answering them completely seriously. There's no attempt to joke around by him, meaning he likely sees it as a risk. Furthermore, his sentence "Regarding the Miller claim" adds nothing substantial to this game, while making it seem like he is doing some early analysis.[/quote]
Can this point be used against avasthearties who also answered my questions seriously?

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP:

Yes I can. Most people in this game have had a little bit of fun and randomness to your answers, but YankCane seems to think he'll get town cred by answering them completely seriously. There's no attempt to joke around by him, meaning he likely sees it as a risk. Furthermore, his sentence "Regarding the Miller claim" adds nothing substantial to this game, while making it seem like he is doing some early analysis.

Can this point be used against avasthearties who also answered my questions seriously?

[Wickedestjr]

Yonzy, why no random vote?

I have more to say in a few minutes.

I didnt know RVS stage was still on lol

Vote: Kid Know Nothing

FoS: Yonzy

[Wickedestjr]

el simo, do you have any thoughts on the game currently? Do you suspect anybody?

[Wickedestjr]

I don't agree that simo is scummy because of that one post, so yes, I disagree.

In that case:

If you didn't agree with it, then your post 37 seems out of place.

...and my suspicion of you has strengthened. You didn't agree with ConfidAnon's suspicion of el simo, but still made a post adding on to or explaining ConfidAnon's point. That makes no sense if you're town.

[Wickedestjr]

My thought at the moment are centred on Hez. His reasonings seem to imply that he'd think Confid is scum, or scummy, but he dismisses it as it's not 'fair.'

Doesn't seem like town logic..

Firstly, Hez only said that one of my points wasn't a fair scumtell. He didn't call the whole case unfair.

Secondly, while I don't agree/support this point, if you honestly believe in it, why didn't you bring it up earlier? And if you found it voteworthy, why didn't you vote him until now?


@Yonzy - What originally made you think that the RVS was over? The facepalm was because you didn't random vote in the RVS stage and when the game got serious you

did

random vote. Is there anybody you suspect at this stage of the game? Why?

Strengthened? Why don't you just vote me already instead of staying on a random vote? Certainly a good way to seem non-comittal regarding me, if you strengthened your leeriness of me from an FoS it should probably just be a vote.

Read the thread again, please. My vote on ConfidAnon is serious. Not random. And even if you had acted more suspicious than him I wouldn't unvote until ConfidAnon had responded to the vote and defended himself.

I don't have to agree with him to explain it. That's like (incoming sports reference) someone who doesn't know about sports saying "What makes the Yankees the winningest team in baseball?" and a Sox fan going "Well, they have 27 titles". The two aren't related in my eyes nor were they when I said it.

Why did you make post 37? You don't agree that there was AtE in el simo's post. Right? So why explain his motivation for adding AtE to his answer, as scum, when you didn't even believe there was any AtE? It still doesn't make sense to me.

And Wicked, why did you not call out Dizzy for not random voting?

...because, IIRC, Dizzy hasn't even made a post outside of the confirmation stage.

More later.

[Wickedestjr]

This game.

Way too easy.

Wicked, thanks for giving you one of your buddies. When you die, Yonzy's next.
Care to give us your third?

unvote, vote yonzy

Care to actually explain your reads? That might be useful. Mastin, if you are so certain that I'm scum, why not try to convince others to vote for me or explain why you are voting me?

Trying to plant the idea of simo town in everyone's heads.

If you were a townie in his position, how would you have phrased his question?

Like I said earlier though, it's not the strongest case but it's better than a random vote. How on earth is that phrase scummy? That's not giving myself room to backpedal - it's clarifying that some votes have more weight behind them than others. If I advocate a lynch at any point in the game, I'll clearly state that. If I don't, I won't (barring looking for reactions and that sort of thing).

Before I elaborate on and defend my point against you, can you please explain what the purpose of your vote for el simo was, originally?

And how is joking scummy? It was just that . . . a joke. Since when are jokes a scumtell?

Nice misrep. I never said that joking was a scumtell. Did you actually think I was saying that? LobsterCatapult explained this point pretty well and I can't think of a better way to elaborate on it, so I'll just quote it for you since you ignored it anyway:

no reason to put a joke after a 'serious' reason to vote someone, except to give yourself a weak "it wasnt that serious" out if someone calls you out on it.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm not a fan of avasthearties play so far.

Why do you think I was asking him the question? I wanted more clarity before I brought it up. I realize now I misunderstood him.

Correct me if I'm wrong. You asked HezLucky the question, then, before HezLucky had responded, I asked you who you suspect. You voted HezLucky and explained your point before HezLucky answered your question. If I'm correct, why did you wait until after I asked about your suspicions before you voted? I might be a little bit confused.

If I follow their very detailed thought process which they clearly laid out for us, I'd say they think you are Yonzy's partner, guiding him?

If you're right, then that would explain why they believe Yonzy is my scumbuddy, but it doesn't explain why they think I'm scum. Horrifying Hero called me scum before calling Yonzy scum.

also, we may not be out of rqs, but what is everyone's experience here on MS? like how many completed games has everyone had?

I've been on MS for about two and a half years and I have... 24 completed games.

The fact that Dizzy hasn't posted is irrelevant. Dizzy did confirm, yet hasn't made a random vote. You didn't answer the question there.

It isn't irrelevant. I questioned Yonzy because he made a post in the RVS that didn't have a random vote. Dizzy never made any posts in the RVS so if I were to question him I would just be asking him why he hasn't been posting. And for all I know, Dizzy would have cast a random vote if he had made a post outside of the RVS.

I feel like an idiot but I must've pulled someone else's ISO up and thought it was his. I don't see anything scummy in his ISO upon review.

Whose ISO did you read instead?

To see who over reacted to it first. Easy.

So do you suspect Yonzy and why? Also, what do you consider an overreaction and what does a player overreacting to your vote say about that player's allignment?

I like both YankCane151 and ConfidAnon's reaction to my suspicions of them. Also, I'm no longer interested in arguing with them at this point (I'm aware that I seem to be beating a dead horse and if I continued questioning them I don't think it would get us anywhere).

I think that I will, instead,

Unvote. Vote: tarsonisocelot

. I'll explain later.

[Wickedestjr]

So what do you guys think about tarsonisocelot?

[Wickedestjr]

you said you'd supply your reasons for voting him. why are you asking us for our opninions before you post yours?

I want to see who agreed with me and could explain why without parroting my reasoning.

why dont you like avast?

He voted KKN in post 76 just because he didn't give a reason for his Yonzy vote. Not really a strong point and it feels like he was going after an easy target at that point.

I'll explain my suspicion of tarsonisocelot once a few other players have given their thoughts on him.

[Wickedestjr]

Y'know what. I really like the HH bandwagon- even better than my tarsonisocelot vote.

Unvote. Vote: Horrifying Hero

My reasons:
-They've stated two suspicions but haven't explained either of them and haven't made any effort to convince others to follow their vote for me.
-They haven't posted a lot recently. This is especially strange considering they were pretty active the day the game started.
-They are a miller. That, itself, isn't suspicious, but a miller's allignment can't be determined via cop investigation. So we determine their allignment based solely on their play during the day. Horrifying Hero, however, is giving us hardly anything to work with. They're playing with their cards too close to their chest. That isn't the way that a miller should be playing this game.


I still suspect tarsonisocelot, but I'm not explaining why until 2-3 more players post in the thread.

[Wickedestjr]

By the way, main reason we haven't been posting stuff, is we're observing things. Looking for the final scum.

Then how are we supposed to determine

your

allignment?

The question I have to ask: why?

Why not?

Answer the question, please.

What did you learn through the fake claim?

The alignment of almost the entire playerlist, naturally.

And how did your fakeclaim tell you all that?

If we're going off gut reads, I can attest that something seems off about Wicked. I get kind of the vibe that he's trying to hard to look town or something, but I can't put real logic behind it at the moment.

You might be interested in taking a look at my previous games.

The only way to describe it other than that is to quote every post Wicked's done and explain exactly why he's scum. And I do mean it--I can quote every single post he's done and point out all the scumminess within. He has literally zero town posts this game.

I don't believe that you are capable of doing this. Try and prove me wrong.

Will you explain now? Pretty please?
And please don't refer to me as him as you did in your previous post.

Okay sure. Sorry for referring to you as him. Let's take a look at your posts in iso:

Post 0: Confirmation post.
Post 1: Response to my questions in the RVS and a random vote.
Post 2: Question directed to HezLucky asking how scum whining is different from town frustration.
Post 3: She asks me why I suspect her, requested that I call her a she, and says that it would be helpful if HH listed the scumtells from a couple of posts.

...and that's it. My summary of each post didn't leave anything out. Anyone notice what this iso is missing? Suspicions. A vote. Any thoughts regarding the game. tarsonisocelot hasn't given us anything to work with and aside from 2-3 questions (there was no follow-up to the only answered question), hasn't done any scumhunting. She's scum.

[Wickedestjr]

Hmm.... I like ConfidAnon's points against YankCane. ConfidAnon, what do you think of tarsonisocelot after reading my points against him?

[Wickedestjr]

Mod: I'm going to have very limited access tomorrow (I don't know if I'll be able to make any posts) and I might have limited access the following day as well.

Sorry guys. This V/LA was unexpected.

[Wickedestjr]

Hey guys. I'm back... and I see the page count doubled in the two days I was away. Catching up now.

[Wickedestjr]

Still catching up. I plan to post all of my thoughts at the end, but I'll respond to two posts now...

Wicked, I see alot of you asking people for their suspicions but I really haven't seen anyone ask you it (I get the general gist, me and Tarson), but do you have an official list?

I'll try to come up with a list when I'm caught up.

Wicked, it's a bit early in the game to claim anything definite based on a lack of stated suspicions. I never know what to do as any alignment early game and need more information than you appear to to develop a list of reads.

1. As shown by this post, you did have thoughts on the game, but you hadn't been providing those thoughts.
2. You can strengthen/obtain reads by questioning players. At the time I voted for you, your scumhunting had consisted of a single question directed at HezLucky which had no followup.

[Wickedestjr]

Alright. Almost caught up. I'm at page 12.

Question for Rainbowdash: why do you suspect el simo?

[Wickedestjr]

Alright, so I'm not caught up, but I'm pretty much there. Forgot the days were two weeks and noticed I have 4 votes, so I'll post my current thoughts now. Below is the playerlist in order from most townish to most suspicious...

Town
====
Kid Know Nothing
YankCane151
Rainbowdash
bobsnox
HezLucky
LobsterCatapult
Vifam
Horrifying Hero
tarsonisocelot
ConfidAnon
el simo
avasthearties
====
Scum

Unvote. Vote: avasthearties

Reasons later. First I'm going to defend myself. There are so many things wrong with the points against me.

[Wickedestjr]

Anyway, Wick pretty much ruined it. But here's what I got from his posts.

It's like he doesn't give a fuck

, he isn't curious as town would be, hell he hints at scum-motivated reason why Mastin would claim miller, but doesn't legitimately pressure him.

The bolded is absolutely right. I don't really care about the miller claim. Ultimately, I plan to judge you based on your play. There are several players that ignored or didn't comment on your miller claim. Why are you going after

me

? There are several reasons why I didn't want to have a discussion regarding the miller claim...

• In both games I had played with a miller in the past, I think everyone agreed that the miller claim was a null tell. I don't think a miller discussion is necessary.
  
• I wasn't interested in a discussion regarding your miller claim. I'm playing this game to have fun and I don't want to get in what I feel is a boring theory discussion.
  
• I believe that a theory discussion is a terrible way of getting out of the RVS. Somebody's opinion regarding theory usually doesn't have anything to do with their allignment, imo, but it can often be mistaken as allignment indicative.

I had a slight reason to doubt the miller claim, but there wasn't really anything I thought I could do to pressure you. Yes, I

could

have attacked you because I thought Mastin may have suggested that you claim miller, but there would be absolutely nothing you could say or do to defend yourself. I didn't really see any point in pressuring you.

Instead, he's nods the claim off as nothing and encourages everyone to answer lame-RQS questions, which I still don't know if they had a productive use.

You're right, I did nod the claim off as nothing. Aside from the fact that you couldn't be investigated, it means nothing to me- it's a null tell.

My RQS questions did have a productive use but they weren't meant to get us out of RVS. I was fine with simply random voting as a means of getting out of RVS.

Btw, Hez is pretty obvious town. This shouldn't need explanation.

...it does when the link doesn't work. Mind linking us to the post you were talking about here?

Yonzy's also pretty obvious scum. Town don't RVS vote for the sake of. Scum do because they want to blend in. It's even better because this beautiful interaction between Yonzy/Wick shows that Wick is literally asking questions for the sake of.

I thought Yonzy's posts were suspicious as well, but he was not obvious scum. I don't like how you completely ignore the possibility of him being newbtown.

@Mastin- Have you ever, as town, not posted in a game simply because you were "observing"? If so, can you link me to the game?

Response to the rest of the accusations coming up next.

[Wickedestjr]

I did not like the "I'll explain later why I'm voting, after some other people have". It seems like a way of trying to get other people to provide the arguments for a wagon, thus subtly pushing others to change their reads on a player (in this case me) without having to actually provide a reason for them to. As other people didn't bite Wicked was left arguing that I was scum because I was lurking/inactive, as the vote was cast in post #101 then that was a bad reason (though later in the day it would have held merit).

I explained why I didn't give my reason for my vote. I wanted to see who agreed with me without seeing the point against you. I've done this before as town. Here's an example. It's nothing out of the ordinary.

Not only does this read like a major mistake from bobsnox, but Wicked just drops it totally after this to vote for Mastin.

The question directed at bobsnox wasn't a result of suspicion towards bobsnox, but because I was curious to know who he suspected. I had no reason to think his answer to my question was a lie and saw no scum motivation for confusing two players with one in another just so he could keep his random vote for less than another day.

I think it's scummy how wicked shies away from HH's pressure on him in his Post 44. Especially after how he deflects it towards ConfidAnon in his next post. Saying "it's not a lynch-worthy case" shows that he's not out thirsting for blood over something that small. I don't see it as any sort of scumtell.

Firstly, I don't see how I shied away from HH's suspicion of me. He never gave any reasons and refused to explain his vote even when I asked. What the heck was I supposed to do instead and how exactly did I even shy away?

Secondly, I still think it was unneccessary to mention that the case wasn't lynch-worthy. That was something that was fairly obvious anyway and it just gives him room to backpedal if he gets suspicion for his vote. Also, I would like to point out that LobsterCatapult, the player that Friend replaced and supposedly knows was town, also used this point against ConfidAnon. I don't see why he is suspecting me for this.

Don't know why Wicked hasn't put a vote down on Yank yet.

Really? It's not complicated. He wasn't my top suspect. That doesn't mean I can't express or support the suspicion of him though.

Bad vote by Wicked in his Post 115. Weak wagon-hop on someone who's obviously pretty confident on him being scum.

Firstly, what does it matter if HH suspects me? Is it always suspicious to vote somebody that suspects you? Secondly, HH wasn't explaining any of his reads and I wanted that to change. I figured the only way to force them to explain was by pressuring them. I noticed HH had a bandwagon and realized that bandwagon might not be there forever. I took advantage of the attention on him and voted him then.

God, again. Wicked throws soft suspicion towards Yank like Yank did towards him, but neither of them are willing to put down a vote against each other.

I'll quote myself:

Really? It's not complicated. He wasn't my top suspect. That doesn't mean I can't express or support the suspicion of him though.

Wicked is slipping into the background with all this Yank/Hez business, and it's getting awfully suspicious.

Are you freaking kidding me? I was V/LA!!! No wonder I was slipping into the background. Kind of hard not to when you have out-of-game reasons for not being capable of posting. Also, I would just like to point out that I was the most active player prior to my V/LA so I have a lot of trouble seeing

And that's why Friend voted me and why several others have followed him. Pretty damn weak if you ask me. And I'm being asked to claim for

those

reasons. If I'm still a lynch candidate 24 hours from now, then I'll claim. But until then I would like those supporting my lynch to actually come up with a half-decent case which I can defend against.

It's pretty much an unsurprise that Wicked votes for me seeing as I'm in 2nd place for the rope necklace contest... and he's in first. It seems as though he's decided to try to help push me over the edge to keep himself alive...

REALLY??? If this was actually the reason for my vote, I could have easily just voted tarsonisocelot, a player I've already expressed suspicion of.

@Wicked How did Yank end up near the top of your little list? 3/5 of your posts are you going all "post 37 post 37" at him, and at no point do you discuss what turned you completely around on Yank. You said right before your break that you liked Confidanon's points on yank, but now he's near the bottom and Yank's at the top. Why?

Hint: My suspicion of YankCane was before the exchange between him and HezLucky. That changed my read on him. I'll explain the rest of my reads later.

[Wickedestjr]

ConfidAnon, why do you suspect me. Because I'm at L-1 and there is no real case against me. It was a result of me:
*Not being interested in a discussion about the miller claim. - So what?
*Not immediately explaining my suspicion. - That's not suspicious, I've explained why I did it, and I've done it before as town. This is also a point that would be way stronger if used against HH instead.
*Not voting YankCane despite expressing suspicion of him. - So what? I had stronger suspicions at the time. That's not suspicious.
*Slipping into the background during my V/LA. - Not suspicious. In fact, it has nothing to do with my allignment and it's a terrible point because I was the most active prior to my V/LA (so it's not like I was lurking.)
*My HH vote was considered a weak wagon hop. - HH was giving us nothing to work with, so I was taking advantage of the votes and joined the bandwagon while it was there. Not suspicious.

Also, IIRC, more than half the players supporting this suspicion haven't even explained why, but instead agreed with others.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP: Actually could everybody who suspects me answer the question I asked ConfidAnon. It's extremely frustrating when I take all the time to defend myself and rather than explain why I'm still scum, the players who suspect me just continue to suspect me and even ask for a claim.

[Wickedestjr]

ConfidAnon

First post he mentions suspicion of me is here:

I currently would support the avast wagon moreso than the wicked wagon, but I wouldn't be opposed to either.

...this is his second to last post and he gives no reasons. I don't think he's even asked me any questions at all throughout the whole game. Kind of odd considering he's happy with my lynch.

And he put me at L-1. Especially strange considering he suspected tarsonisocelot, who's voting me, and HH, because of his reasonless suspicion of me.

My question: how the hell does ConfidAnon think that HH should feel obligated to explain his suspicion of me, when ConfidAnon is the one who put me at L-1 with the only justification consisting of:

I currently would support the avast wagon moreso than the wicked wagon, but I wouldn't be opposed to either.

Seriously?

HezLucky

Just like ConfidAnon, HezLucky doesn't mention any suspicion of me until his second to last post:

Look, I've read through >half the game. At that point, I'm pretty sure our scum consists of: Yank, Wicked, Yonzy.

My notes are on my broken laptop, though. Nevertheless, I'm fine with a Wicked lynch. I'm not about to stall this game when I think I know who the scum are.

He's pretty sure I'm scum but has never made any mention whatsoever of me being a possible scum. I don't think he has asked me any questions throughout the game, either. I remember him agreeing with a lot of my points earlier on, though. But now he apparently thinks I'm scum. And he's given no reasons, whatsoever.

So... so far we have two players who are voting me but neither have given a single reason. Let's continue.

Horrifying Hero

Oh, yes. The hydra that said there is no universe I'm town, I've been bleeding scumtells in all of my posts, and have promised a wall of text explaining why, but hasn't explained why. The only reason revolves around my lack of interest in discussing their fake miller claim, which is pretty stupid considering I'm not the only one.

So that's three players who are voting me. Two of which haven't given a single reason for doing so and one of which has given a reason that applies to several players despite insisting I'm confirmed scum.

LobsterCatapult

Another player who agreed with many of my suspicions earlier on but now suddenly wants me lynched. First time she mentioned suspicion of me was in her last post where she says:

i basically liked what friend posted (sorry to all whom i dissapointed by coming back lol). and super agreed with his vote, especially after Wicked voted HH, and his stupid reasoning for the taron.
...
id be a lot happier with a wicked lynch than an avast one. avast is wishy washy, but not as scummy to me as wicked or bob, and i dont like his town->scum list.

...but she does give reasons.

That's 1 of 4 players who've given reasons so far.

tarsonisocelot

I already defended against tarsonisocelot's points against me. It basically comes down to my reasonless suspicion of me and because I didn't followup with my bobsnox question. The reasonless suspicion isn't scummy, I've explained why I did it, and I've even linked to a game where I've done the same as town. There was no scum motivation for bobsnox's actions and I wasn't even suspicious of him for his actions, so there was no followup necessary. Pretty bad reasons, but there are reasons.

So that's 2 out of 5 players who've justified their position on this bandwagon. There's no way this bandwagon isn't scum motivated. Now I'm going to show how avasthearties is scum.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP: Those were the five players who are voting me currently and their reasons for voting me.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP again: tarsonisocelot's point regarding the connection between bobsnox and I could also be applied to avasthearties, but it wasn't.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm still working on my avasthearties case but I thought I would try and ask;

Mod, can we get a deadline extension, please?

I, the current top lynch candidate, was V/LA for a few days and it took me an additional few days to catch up due to the long exchange between Hez and Yank. Also, it's not like the discussion isn't going anywhere.

[Wickedestjr]

Okay... sorry it took so long, but here is my case against avasthearties. The four points are listed in order from weakest to strongest.

Wickedestjr's avasthearties Case

I.

In post 296, avasthearties posts his thoughts on the Yonzy/Vifam slot:

I guess Yonzy is out now and in comes Vifam, who I think is making up for the dumbassery of his predecessor. Good reasonable defense provided for Yonzy's cluelessness. Time will tell how useful Vifam is, but I'd say currently he's about a 1 on a scale of -5 to 5 (with -5 being confirmed scum and 5 being confirmed town).

First of all, these comments regarding Vifam don't make any sense. avasthearties says that Vifam provided a good reasonable defense for Yonzy's cluelessness but all Vifam said about his predecessor was:

The guy I replaced was a derpasaures, though.

avasthearties says that Vifam is making up for the dumbassery of Yonzy but also says that time will tell how useful Vifam is. Those contradictory points are the only reasons avasthearties provides to justify his Vifam read and this whole paragraph seems like useless fluff. And IIRC there was never any followup to these comments, anyway.

For these reasons, I'm curious why avasthearties even felt the need to give his read on Vifam rather than wait until after seeing more from him. I don't think it was because anybody asked him about his read (or at least I didn't see anybody ask him about his Vifam read). It wasn't because he was giving his thoughts on all of the players. It wasn't because he was giving his thoughts on the replacements, because he didn't say anything about Rainbowdash. He didn't have anything helpful to say about Vifam, wanted to hear more from him, and didn't give a strong read on him either way, so why did he even post his read on Vifam? I see a possible connection. It looks like avasthearties scum may have felt obligated to say something about his scumbuddy. Either that, or avasthearties scum is just trying to appear helpful and didn't do a very good job of it.

II.

This was something avasthearties said after I voted him, but I find it suspicious and thought I'd include it in my case anyway. After I post my scumlist, avasthearties, in his post 398 says:

It's pretty much an unsurprise that Wicked votes for me seeing as I'm in 2nd place for the rope necklace contest... and he's in first. It seems as though he's decided to try to help push me over the edge to keep himself alive... Well I'm going to read through Wicked's iso and should have another post coming soon.

avasthearties undermines my vote for him with bad reasoning. He says that my vote looks like an attempt to save myself, but this logic is bad for two reasons:

• This same point could easily be used against me if I had voted for bobsnox or tarsonisocelot (somebody I had already expressed suspicion of) instead.
  
• Trying to prevent my lynch this late in the day isn't a scumtell. I would want to do it as both allignments because, in a mini normal, any player's lynch (regardless of said player's allignment) makes their win condition more difficult to acheive.

That's not the only issue I have with this post, though. This post includes IIoA because he implies suspicion of me but never does say that he actually suspects me. I also think that the implied suspicion feels pretty opportunistic.

III.

For most of the day avasthearties tunneled on Kid Know Nothing for what I felt were weak reasons. The vote boils down to Kid Know Nothing casting a reasonless vote IIRC. This is especially strange considering Kid Know Nothing wasn't the only person to vote without giving a reason. bobsnox, HH, and I are all also guilty of voting without reason in this game. YankCane brought up bobsnox's reasonless vote and avasthearties responded by saying:

And as for 13,

he explained his vote in between then and my post,

unlike KKN who only provided a BS "I wanted to see who would overreact" answer after the fact.

...which strikes me as an unusual defense because bobsnox only explained the vote in post 257 because Vifam questioned it. So bobsnox didn't explain his vote until Vifam asked him about it, but avasthearties let him get away with it simply because he ('he' being avasthearties) didn't have to bother asking him about it.

avasthearties never does try to explain why they didn't question Horrifying Hero and I. This is even worse. He voted Kid Know Nothing for

posting a vote without giving reasons

,

explaining

only after being asked about it, and

giving bad reasons

for withholding his case. However, I would think that avasthearties would be much more interested in voting Horrifying Hero for

posting a vote and insisting they are voting scum, but without giving reasons

,

not explaining

even after being asked to, and

giving no reasons

for withholding their case. Instead, avasthearties, when commenting on Horrifying Hero, says:

I don't really get the calls against HH though. I don't really see anything scummy coming from them, and the gambit in the beginning just strikes me as a little too... conspicuous, I guess, to be done by scum.

So Horrifying Hero's reasonless suspicion was too suspicious to be coming from scum, but Kid Know Nothing's reasonless vote was voteworthy. avasthearties completely ignored my reasonless vote.

IV.

My biggest issue with avasthearties is his take on the Yank vs. Hez exchange in post 296:

Ah Christ that was a pain in the ass to read, and frankly for little value. There really wasn't much actual content to be garnered from those several back and forth pages, except for a few interesting statements like:

bobsnox: Look again. Determine again. Hez is scum, let's not look elsewhere.

That big show managed to achieve that, as it is pretty hard to look anywhere but there with several pages of arguing. Now discussion has been moved off of KKN and onto that firestorm. I don't like the result of this attention whoring, which leads me to

FOS: Yank

for now. I just find it suspicious that when the bandwagon on KKN started growing suddenly an arguement forms that overshadows everything else. Obviously Hez is responsible for that as well, but the reason it's Yank I am FOSing is simply that unusual statement above. If anything, there is the possibility that they could both be scum bussing eachother to get the heat off of KKN.

Town's role in this game is to scumhunt. We do this by figuring out if a player truly believes everything they say. I have a lot of trouble believing that avasthearties actually believes what he is saying here and that is a reason why I have reached the conclusion that he is mafia. Specifically, I don't think avasthearties actually believes in the possibility of a Yank-Hez-KKN scumteam and I have many reasons for drawing this conclusion and for disliking this post otherwise, ordered from weakest to strongest:

a.)

avasthearties begins the post by complaining about the exchange. The first two sentences of this quote seem really out of place coming from somebody who has drawn the conclusion that the two players in the exchange could possibly both be scum.

b.)

avasthearties gives Yank an FoS simply because he said he didn't want to look elsewhere. So, basically, avasthearties gave Yank an FoS for tunneling. Two problems with this: avasthearties was tunneling on Kid Know Nothing up until he made this post

and

HezLucky had the exact same attitude towards Yank, so it is odd that avasthearties didn't give Hez an FoS. Also, avasthearties' point seems like a pretty easy/weak reason to attack Yank.

c.)

It's pretty clear what avasthearties' real motivation is for bringing up a Yank-Hez-KKN scumteam possibility. He's trying to push a KKN mislynch and didn't like how KKN had been forgotten.

d.)

Yank and Hez being scumbuddies is, itself, a pretty crazy and unbelievable theory and avasthearties' belief that this could be the case is suspicious. However, the reason he gives for this theory is even worse. He believes that two scum partners would bus the heck out of eachother for 5 pages straight and thus put all of the attention on them just so they could get three serious votes off of their other scumbuddy. So this team would essentially be trying to put all the attention on two of their members just to remove three votes worth of attention from one of their members.

I think that there is no way avasthearties actually believes this is possible.

TL;DR - avasthearties is scum, so lynch him instead.

[Wickedestjr]

@Mod: Thank you!

I don't think I have time to respond to posts directed at me right now (I'll try to do it tonight if the day isn't over by then), but I do have time for a quick post right now.

I feel that there are very weak cases against me which I have defended against (with the exception of HezLucky and LobsterCatapult's recent posts which I'll admit I haven't read yet). There is a strong case against avasthearties and he hasn't done anything to defend himself. He's at L-2 with at least three players off of his wagon who are all fine with his lynch and he's claimed to be a vanilla townie. To me, it seems like a very straight forward decision. Let's avoid making any other players claim and go with the lynch that most of the players here (even a few not voting him already) support. The worst possible outcome is we lose a vanilla townie and the scum go into the night not knowing anybody else's claim and have less of an idea as to who our powerroles are. The best and most likely outcome is that avasthearties is scum and the scum go into the night not knowing anybody else's claim.

If we do go through with this lynch, I want to see HH's wall post. However, I don't see the point in waiting for Kid Know Nothing's replacement. It will probably take a day or two for the replacement to be found and another day or two for them to catch up. I've seen enough from that slot for the day to end and think it would be best if we gave the replacement the whole entire night to catch up instead.

Thoughts on this?

[Wickedestjr]

Response and questions to Hez:

POINT 1: META
Wicked #44 is noted for possible connection to Yank. Really? How are you the only person in this game that actually needs an explanation of my original vote for Yank? I don't believe that, given the solid player that you were in Open 302. [[Seriously, people have replaced into this game and called my original post on Yank a good one. The fact that neither you nor Yank can understand that does not strike me at all as town]]
{{{{{{RICHTER CHANGE -- WICKED IS 10% MORE LIKELY TO BE SCUM}}}}}}

I thought I understood your reason for originally voting YankCane, but I asked about it because I thought you worded it strangely and I wanted clarification. In the post where you voted him you said it was because he was trying to not offend anyone and look helpful. In my opinion, neither of these things equate to seriousness and lack of jokes (which was the reason you gave in your response to my question and the answer I was expecting) which is why I asked just to be certain. You can joke around without offending anybody and you can also joke around in response to the questions but still be helpful by adding serious answers as well. Does that make sense?

Also, why would I deliberately act like I don't understand your point against Yank? If it is because you think I'm trying to avoid suspecting Yank, then why would I proceed to cast suspicion of him in post 47, three posts later?

POINT 2: CONNECTION TO SCUMBUDDY
Yank and Wicked are buddies baesd on #47-#49. Wicked starts arguing with Yank, and Yank gives him nothing,
no sort of crap that he gave me, since a) he's [Yank] not under pressure and (b) he's [Yank] too new to realize getting
into an argument with your scumbuddy is a good tactic d1.
{{{{{{RICHTER CHANGE -- BOTH YANK & WICKED ARE 40% MORE LIKELY TO BE SCUM}}}}}}

IIRC, I can't really defend myself against this point because it is based on YankCane's actions. I would like you to pay attention to the fact that I gave Yank an FoS, not a vote.

This is a really weak vote. It revolves around another player being scum which is really bad reason because you couldn't possible know if Yank is scum if you are town and it is only day 1. Also, if your suspicion of me is based on my connection to YankCane, then why do you say:

It's rather extensive on

Wicked

, Vifam, and Rainbowdash being the scumteam, every bit as long as promised and then some--not even Mastin anticipated it being this conclusive. The level of detail is worth it, though.

GOOD GOD MAN FUCKING POST THIS. THIS MIGHT WIN US THE FUCKING GAME. LOOK AT MY SCUMLIST.

IF I'M WRONG ABOUT YANK, YOU'VE JUST NAILED ALL THREE SCUM

. WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?

Because if Yank was town, then you would have no reason to suspect me.

[Wickedestjr]

your first point on avast...about him commenting on vifam, i dont see the scum angle from it necessarily. vifam had posted some since then, and to me posted some valid posts, maybe some not so valid posts, but vifam had posted 21 times since avast said his reads on him. the main problem i have with avast's posts is that they are a bit wishy-washy, which is mildly scummy. however i dont see avast's read of vifam at this juncture as premature, or strange since before he said he didnt have much of a read on him, and now he does. in point, his catch up post leaves a lot to be desired, but the read on vifam to me isnt the problem.

Okay, then why do you think avasthearties felt the need to mention Vifam?

2nd point.
avast's point is valid, you were voting someone who was tied for 2nd, however, your point is also true that you could have voted other people. i dont really see the need in pointing this out.

That wasn't my only reason for having issue with avasthearties' comment. The post was also IIoA because he implied suspicion of me without explicitly saying he suspected me. Also, the implied suspicion was opportunistic.

[1: ....i dont really see why you think that avast was tunneling kkn that heavily. he only posted like. 3 times in regards to kkn.]

and i agree with you on this point, i think that this point by avast is crap. i dont think his reads were accurate in regards to KKN and the yank-hez action going on. i think his reads here were false, and his post here was wishy-washy.

[2: however, what do you think of avast's point on bob?]

i think we can all agree that this one post by avast is pretty shitty, but, im not sure if get the whole ingenuine vibe. i think its quite unlikely that hez and yank are scum together. i still dont know about yank, still sort of leaning town on him.

1:

Four times actually. But it really doesn't matter how many times he commented on or spoke with KKN and you are undermining my vote for a very very weak reason. He voted KKN in post 76, the top of page four, and didn't switch his vote until post 346, the bottom of page 14. A majority of the game he had his vote on KKN. And it was for a very weak reason: KKN cast a reasonless vote. This vote could have also gone to bobsnox. Also, if KKN is voteworthy for a majority of the game simply for voting without reason, then I'd think Horrifying Hero would have been nearly confirmed scum from avas's perspective (I've explained why). Finally, avas completely ignored and didn't make a single mention of my reasonless vote.

2:

I missed it. But you've raised a good point. It's suspicious.

and no, i have other reasons for voting for you. i absolutely HATE your 113. i dont see why town should hide their reasonings for voting for someone, while asking others for their opinions on it. this seems like it comes from a scum motivation

I've explained this at least three times. I've even brought up a game where I've done this as town. What is wrong with my explanation and why am I scum for doing something that I have done before as town?

i dont like your 115. i think your vote on HH seems late for your reasoning. i feel like for your reasonings you should have voted for HH sooner, and that you are hopping on the HH wagon purely because your "case" on taron didnt work out the way you wanted. i feel like you parked your vote on HH for convenience and trying to blend in.

Firstly, HH was never and has never been my top suspect. He's one of my stronger suspicions but I didn't vote him because he was my top suspect. The vote was purely to add pressure while there was attention on that slot because I wanted them to actually contribute. Secondly, I posted my case against tarsonisocelot AFTER I voted HH. My case had never "not worked out". Nobody had suspected her prior to my reasons but I hadn't given up on that suspicion. Also, you think I'm trying to blend in? From memory, I was only the third vote.

i dont like your town->scum reads. you havent really explained some of them. this seems like scum trying to make content.

No this is town that wanted to post their new reads after being V/LA while the thread had gained 8 pages. When we are so close to deadline and I have limited time, the only read I need to explain is my strongest scumread. Also, "scum trying to make content" is really vague.

your 396 response to HH seems like you dodged the question. HH said he thought your posts read that you dont give a fuck in general, but you responded to the specific miller claim.

Uh... no. HH is correct that I don't care about the miller claim. I've explained why that doesn't make me suspicious and I've explained why I don't care about the miller claim. How and in what way did I dodge the question?

i think my predecessor's points on you and yank should be noted.

I responded to Friend's points. How was I wrong?

Also Wicked trying to justify the lynch of Avas because he claimed before he did just makes me want to slow things down and think more.

What's wrong with that justification?

All - If you could lynch *anyone* who would you be voting here and why? Note that Yank and Hez do not need to answer this question.

avasthearties

[Wickedestjr]

hmmmmmmm deadline extention...

unvote
vote:rainbowdash.

vifam come back. now.

I'm not seeing the Rainbowdash case; I think he's town... and I really wanted to post a picture with a pony in it.

It is hoofing the "lynch all vanilla claims" line which is one of the biggest failed policies known to ponykind. In this situation it feels like more of just trying to put the final nail in a coffin, but the nail is made of glass and you are trying to hammer it in with an anvil.

Rainbowdash, there are stronger points against avasthearties and IIRC, there are more people that are interested in his lynch, and the fact that he isn't a town powerrole means, at worst, we are losing a vanilla townie. It doesn't make much sense for us to risk having another player claim when there are so many benefits of lynching avasthearties right now.

[Wickedestjr]

So much pony.

AAAAAH!!!

If you could give me something to respond to it would be more awesome though.

I didn't really care if you responded or not. My point is that there are many other pros to lynching avasthearties right now aside from the lynching claimed VTs policy. The fact that avasthearties isn't a town powerrole just makes this lynch even better and we shouldn't have to risk outing any powerroles or narrowing down the pool of players which could be powerroles for the scum (especially not on day 1).

Vifam has also requested replacement.

[Wickedestjr]

For those that still aren't convinced that avasthearties is scum, note that he

implied

suspicion of me in post 398 because he believed I was voting him solely to keep myself alive. However, in post 447, one RL day later, he votes me and says:

Alright, I'm going to have to UNVOTE: VOTE: Wicked

just for the sake of self-preservation at this point

. Bob is obvscum but Wicked still makes my top 3 and with the deadline coming up I might as well. Post coming tomorrow when I'm actually in the mood. Wicked vote will remain unless a Bob wagon starts up.

Scum trying to have his cake and eat it too.

It should also be noted that, despite the deadline extension and despite the fact that my lynch was a possibility, he hasn't made any effort to try and defend himself or contribute anything. Scum that think they are about to be lynched have no reason to contribute before they die, but town do. It should also be noted that I saw him online earlier in Little Italy.

I still want to see Horrifying Hero's post, though. If they can't finish it by the end of today, then they should just post what they have. Any evidence of scumhunting or an attempt at scumhunting would be helpful right now, because so far they've given us little to nothing. And I have a few other things to say, but I don't have time to right now.

[Wickedestjr]

I'll start with el simo's post, but if I have time I'll try to respond to Horrifying Hero's wall post.

"I don't believe that you are capable of doing this. Try and prove me wrong."
The ultimate scumclaim, challenging us. He denies our ability, not the truth that he isn't scum. Town wants truth.

Scum want logic debates.

Umm... I didn't believe you could show that I'm scum

because

I know I am town... and the bolded portion of this quote is just stupid. You weren't giving us anything to work with. I wasn't trying to start a debate, I just wanted to see scumhunting from you or at least an attempt at it. And I was trying everything to get contributions from you- including a challenge. This isn't scum interested in a debate, but a townie trying to determine everyone's allignment.

...Yeah, we don't see any names in there, either. And if Wicked got to L-2 with no scum voting him, that makes him what?
Oh, yeah. Confirmed scum.

Not really a point I can defend against. But regardless of my allignment I think it is strange to say that all the players on my bandwagon are town. Are you unfamiliar with bussing?

I know I started and pushed the wagon on bob, but I'd be damned if I'm allowing a lynch to form that quickly on someone with out anyone mentioning as much as even why they're voting him.

In my post 417 I show all the comments regarding me made by the players voting me. What makes my original bandwagon any different? You should note that while I didn't get the votes as quickly as bobsnox, I did get more votes. Even

you

acknowledged that you hadn't seen points against me, earlier. But the same thing happens to your top suspect and you switch your vote partially because of it.

More later. This case is pretty weak, though.

[Wickedestjr]

The case on me comes down to:t
*I wasn't interested in the miller discussion. - So what? I don't believe that there was anything important to learn from a discussion regarding the claim. Theory discussions
*The questions I asked in RQS. - I've already addressed this point (thanks for ignoring me). I'll restate my previous defense: these questions weren't meant to get us out of RVS. They also weren't meant to distract from the game. You'll notice that I still random voted.
*My posts have scum tone and they all look artificial. - This isn't scum tone and my posts aren't "artificial". This is just the way I speak. I find it strange that this point is being used against me when other players (for example: avasthearties) have been pretty wishy-washy.

And I've got 4/5 votes for these reasons. Nice work, guys.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP: Note that none of these points revolve around my actual scumhunting this game, but it is because of the way I speak, my opinion on mafia theory, and my questions in the RVS which you have incorrectly assumed the motivations for (Rainbowdash is the only player who seems to have actually figured out why I asked those questions).

Those of you who think this case is good need to learn how to scumhunt. Because that case is a load of weak BS. Seriously...

The case against avasthearties is way stronger.

But I guess I

should

claim, even though I really didn't want to. I'm a cop. Nice work guys.

[Wickedestjr]

Or we could lynch avasthearties-obvscum. It seems pretty obvious right now. He's stopped scumhunting or trying to scumhunt ever since he was forced to claim.

[Wickedestjr]

I know I started and pushed the wagon on bob, but I'd be damned if I'm allowing a lynch to form that quickly on someone with out anyone mentioning as much as even why they're voting him.

In my post 417 I show all the comments regarding me made by the players voting me. What makes my original bandwagon any different? You should note that while I didn't get the votes as quickly as bobsnox, I did get more votes. Even

you

acknowledged that you hadn't seen points against me, earlier. But the same thing happens to your top suspect and you switch your vote partially because of it.

More later. This case is pretty weak, though.

Relevance is? I was never voting you and I wasn't going to because of the lack of a substantial case on you.

You voted me in your last post. Post 533.

[Wickedestjr]

@el simo- That doesn't make any sense. Didn't you also believe that there were good reasons to suspect bobsnox?

[Wickedestjr]

Also, el simo, why do you want to lynch somebody who's claimed cop?

[Wickedestjr]

You also have been as uncop like as you can get in a mafia game, you have nothing to support your claim with other than your claim itself. I don't have a problem continuing with your lynch today.

How has my play been uncop like?

[Wickedestjr]

Also, el simo, what was wrong with my defense?

[Wickedestjr]

Two things:
1. I was never distrustful of the miller claim. I ignored the claim completely.
2. Most mafia games have cops but millers aren't nearly as common. A cop being in the game doesn't mean there has to be a miller.

[Wickedestjr]

1. I was never distrustful of the miller claim.

Really, now? Then mind explaining this?

I had a slight reason to doubt the miller claim

, but there wasn't really anything I thought I could do to pressure you.

If anything, this was setting up something like a tracker claim, since that'd give you a reason to doubt a miller being in the game.

But a cop?

NO FUCKING WAY DOES A COP POST THAT.

~Lat

Why don't you read the thread again? I gave my reason for having a slight doubt about your miller claim. You even acknowledged it. I wasn't setting myself up to claim tracker. And if I was, then why would I claim cop? This post is stupid.

Millers are a role MADE to be in setups with a Cop. YOU DON'T FUCKING IGNORE/DISTRUST A MILLER CLAIM AS A COP.

~Lat

Are you freaking kidding me? It doesn't work both ways. A miller implies a cop, but a cop in now way implies that there is a miller in the game. How about you actually do some decent scumhunting instead of trying to confirm your scumread based off of weak fluff?

[Wickedestjr]

He isn't saying that a cop implies there is a miller and that argument is irrelevant to what he is saying. He is saying that you, as a cop, wouldn't have ignored or doubted the presence of a claimed miller.

Are you serious? I never doubted the miller claim. I had a slight reason to, but I ultimately wrote it off as a null tell. And when I said I ignored the claim that didn't mean I was ignoring the fact that he would show up as guilty if investigated but that I was ignoring it when trying to determine his allignment.

I think it is strange to say that all the players on my bandwagon are town. Are you unfamiliar with bussing

HE ISN'T EVEN DENYING THAT HE IS SCUM!

To elaborate on this, note how he does not deny that it's true that he's scum. He simply tries to say that the wagon is not all town. In fact, he even CALLS it bussing. SCUM CAN'T BUS TOWN, NOW, CAN THEY? It's another scumclaim from Wicked. He's furthermore trying to deflect attention onto the wagon, to get suspicion there rather than on him. It's a subtle but quite effective OMGUS.

Are you kidding me? Are you really this bad? You took away part of that comment. It should've said:

But regardless of my allignment

I think it is strange to say that all the players on my bandwagon are town. Are you unfamiliar with bussing?

My point was that there would be scum on my bandwagon regardless of my allignment. There would obviously be scum on my bandwagon if I was town so the purpose of my question was to consider the case where I am scum.

But you didn't just show disinterest in the miller discussion. YOU ACTIVELY TRIED TO SHUT IT DOWN. That made it go from something which might not produce anything useful, to something which DEFINITELY didn't produce anything useful. YOU DENIED THE TOWN A POSSIBLE DISCUSSION PATH.

I most certainly did not actively try to shut down the claim. That's a load of BS. My only comment regarding the idea of discussing your claim was:

I doubt that a discussion about your claim would get us out of RVS. Twice I've seen a player claim miller and both times I think everyone agreed to just forget about the miller claim and judge that player's allignment based on their play. I don't really think a discussion is necessary and I believe that we should just continue the game as normal.

You'll notice I say things like "I doubt" or "I don't really think". That's because I'm giving my opinion! I'm not telling everyone else to believe the same thing.

Only very slightly. One word, in fact.

But it's true. Random Questions as scum are there for fluff. Random Questions as town are there to get information. As previously mentioned in our case, there was literally nothing productive in them--you learned nothing from them. You gained zero information from forcing others to answer. You produced, nothing out of these questions.

They were fluff. Meant to pad out your posts. They served no purpose. Other than to make you artificially look better. There's no town motive behind that.

I was planning to look back at the answers later to look for inconsistencies and get a better idea of their allignment. By explaining this, I'm kind of defeating the purpose but I asked the questions to see if they were scumhunting the way they said they would and if they seemed interested in the game or not (this would be a slight indicator that their allignment was the allignment they said that they prefer to play as). I wasn't planning to look back at this until around day 3, but now I only have the information from the first day to use.

Mastin disagrees. Strongly. Caps Lock Rage, strongly. He'll elaborate when he's calmed down.

Have you even looked at my recent completed town games?

This is blatant deflection. Not only onto another. But trying to connect two completely separate subjects. Wicked's scumtells have virtually nothing to do with being wishy-washy. Wicked's done a lot of scumtells having to do with backtracking. The two are not the same.

Umm... yeah they are the same. If you are wishy-washy that allows you to backtrack when you need to which is the reason scum are wishy-washy. You said my posts had a scum tone because they used words like:
"really", "necessary", "believe", "should", "as normal"
Let's take a look at one of avasthearties posts. I've bolded all the parts that you might see as scum tone:

That big show managed to achieve that, as it is pretty hard to look anywhere but there with several pages of arguing. Now discussion has been moved off of KKN and onto that firestorm. I don't like the result of this attention whoring, which leads me to FOS: Yank for now.

I

just

find it suspicious

that when the bandwagon on KKN started growing suddenly an arguement forms that overshadows everything else. Obviously Hez is responsible for that as well, but the reason it's Yank I am FOSing is simply that unusual statement above. If anything, there is the possibility that they could both be scum bussing eachother to get the heat off of KKN.

I was

finding

Bobsnox scummy in the beginning

, but I'm not sure what to think of him now. Some of the stuff he has said recently has been reasonable, and lead me to have

kind

of a null read on him right now. So yeah. I don't

really

get the calls against HH though. I don't

really

see anything scummy coming from them, and the gambit in the beginning

just strikes me

as a little too... conspicuous,

I guess

, to be done by scum.

I

guess

Yonzy is out now and in comes Vifam, who

I think

is making up for the dumbassery of his predecessor. Good reasonable defense provided for Yonzy's cluelessness. Time will tell how useful Vifam is, but I'd say currently he's about a 1 on a scale of -5 to 5 (with -5 being confirmed scum and 5 being confirmed town).

[Wickedestjr]

I don't like the Rainbowdash bandwagon and we shouldn't lynch Vifam because he's not going to be around to claim.

We should lynch avasthearties. It has become very very obvious that he is scum and I can't believe nobody agrees with me. If he was town he wouldn't be lurking right now and he would be trying to help us decide who the best lynch is. Notice that his current vote is one that was intended to save himself.

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote. Vote: Vifam

======[]

Not one of my strongest suspicions but I, admittedly, haven't been able to get a good read on this slot, anyway. And it doesn't look like anybody else is a lynch candidate at this stage considering we have an hour left.

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: avasthearties

According to my investigation, ConfidAnon is town.

[Wickedestjr]

Really guys? Rainbowdash said he was going to kill either avasthearties or bobsnox. That's why I didn't investigate either of those two players.

[Wickedestjr]

@tarsonisocelot- Knowing that I couldn't investigate avasthearties, I investigated my next top suspect: ConfidAnon. And actually, the Mod said that ConfidAnon was town.

[Wickedestjr]

@YankCane, Mastin, el simo, and avasthearties- What do you all think of my investigation target? (I'll explain why I asked this question later. I do have a good reason.)

Now, I've got to know. WHY? Why did Confid become your scumspect #2?

ESPECIALLY after the Vifam lynch?

From memory, ConfidAnon was a lot less active when we were trying to figure out who to lynch. He said this was because of laziness so that means he could've posted, but chose not to. This shows that he didn't really care about who got lynched, imo. Also, el simo's posts at the end of day 1 looked townish. If he was scum, then he'd know I was telling the truth about my role and I find it hard to believe he would still push for my lynch even after the cop claim. Also, he was the first person to switch his vote to my bandwagon yesterday so I believe that he actually suspects me (also, I think that town are more likely to change their mind).

Also,

Mod: I may have limited access the next 2/3 days.

But I should still be able to post a little bit.

[Wickedestjr]

I meant to say: What do you think of my choice to target avasthearties?

Also, Horrifying Hero, Rainbowdash flipped town, so who do you think is mafia aside from me?

[Wickedestjr]

I know several of you don't believe my claim, but lynching me is a stupid move. You guys have at least two more lynches to get rid of me (assuming there isn't a four person scum group in this game), so it doesn't make sense that you would get rid of me this early. There are most likely two mafia remaining in the game. Even if I was mafia, there is likely another mafia member out there who you can try to lynch. Also, if I'm mafia, there's nothing wrong with keeping me alive a few more days as long as you lynch me at some point- so it doesn't really matter when you lynch me. If I'm cop (which I am), lynching me a few days later is better because it means I get more investigations- so it does matter when I'm lynched. Why even take the risk of me being a cop? Keep me alive and I'll either be nightkilled or lynched after giving you 2-4 investigations to work with when I flip town.

@HezLucky- Your suspicion of me, IIRC, is because our reads differ. Why use a point against me that isn't valid until we've seen more flips? Furthermore, you've both acknowledged the fact that your reads aren't always very accurate and the fact that I have, in the past, been capable of nailing entire scumteams. So why does differing reads mean differing allignments, in this case? This point against me would only be valid if the players you suspect (and I believed to be town) were actually mafia. However, you earlier expressed a lack of confidence in your reads.

[Wickedestjr]

@HezLucky-
-You are ignoring one of my main points. Your point is only valid if your reads are correct- something you can't know at this stage if you are town.
-The fast counterwagon on avasthearties was a result of a very strong case which was up against hardly anything.
-You calling me lazy is a hilarious joke.

@Horrifying Hero-
-When I said I was going to ignore and didn't care about your miller claim, I meant that the claim alone wasn't going to have any impact on my read of you. I later brought up a point against you that you weren't playing the way a miller should be playing. No inconsistency there.
-Way to take my post completely out of context, super scumhunter. When I drew attention to ConfidAnon's laziness that wasn't my reason for investigating him. Lateralus22 asked me why I investigated him instead of el simo despite el simo being higher on my suspicions list. I responded by telling him what things I found suspicious about CA and townish about el simo since I posted that scumlist. Also, the point isn't just that ConfidAnon was lurking. The point is that he was lurking near the end of day 1. At a time when we were deciding who we were going to lynch.
-I've tried convincing you that I'm town. Don't see why you think otherwise.

[Wickedestjr]

@HezLucky, Horrifying Hero, and el simo- If I'm scum, what is the advantage of lynching me today instead of a few days later?

I'm sorry but lynching me just doesn't make any sense. This has nothing to do with WIFOM or chance. It's fairly simple. If I'm a cop, you lose a few investigations from lynching me now. But if I'm mafia, there's nothing wrong with leaving me alive for a few more days so long as you lynch me later.

Also, Horrifying Hero, you've ignored me. If I'm scum, who is my scumbuddy? (You were wrong about Rainbowdash)

[Wickedestjr]

@Everyone not voting me- Would you support my lynch?

[Wickedestjr]

Mod:

I'm really sorry, but I'm going to have little to no access the next 2-3 days. I had limited access the last two days as well, but wasn't expecting it.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm here. Back from my V/LA. Unfortunately I'm behind and won't be able to catchup until tomorrow.

I see we have several replacements. Welcome and thanks for replacing in!

[Wickedestjr]

This is a scum that has been caught, has clearly given up (lol look at his activity lately) and is trying to squeeze out ONE more day in hopes that the distraction will cause him to live even LONGER.

Pay attention. I was V/LA.

So Wicked is pretty sure about his case on Avast. This makes me wtf his choice of night investgation. He is either bad cop or scum!

Pay attention. Rainbowdash said he was going to kill either bobsnox or avasthearties.

I like both Ethos and Magua's posts so far and my town reads on those slots have strengthened. The only issue I have with Ethos so far is the reasoning for their town read on el simo. Their reasoning seems weak. I'm not at all impressed with lewarcher82 and my read on that slot has strengthened as well.

I realize I haven't contributed a lot to the game recently, so I'm also going to do an analysis of the game. I'm pretty sure avas is scum, but I'm going to look for more evidence to strengthen that read and possibly determine who the third scum is.

My strong town reads at the moment (in order from most townish to least townish) are:
Ethos- Innocent investigation + Pro-town contributions
HezLucky- Tunneling + Exchange with YankCane151 + I don't get the impression he's necessarily trying to appear pro-town or appease the town
Magua- YankCane's play + I don't get the impression he's necessarily trying to appear pro-town or appease the town
Tomie Uzumaki- Kid Know Nothing's play in general + Kid Know Nothing's attack of Yonzy (it didn't look like a bus)
Horrifying Hero- Strong certainty that I'm scum (this point is much stronger because I know I'm town and if they're scum, so would they)

That leaves:
LobsterCatapult
el simo
tarsonisocelot
lewarcher82

At this point I'd support a lynch on any of these four and only one of these four. I'm going to read/skim through the thread again and see which of these players are connected with eachother and who is connected to Vifam.

[Wickedestjr]

Question I'd like answered before I post my analysis (which I'm still working on):
tarsonisocelot, was your vote for el simo in post 41 a random vote or was it for the reasons given by ConfidAnon in post 35?

[Wickedestjr]

QFT. Ethos isn't confirmed town. It's just more likely that that is the case because of my investigation. I'm still working on my analysis.

[Wickedestjr]

Since we were so skeptical about wicked's claim yesterday, i'm now not really surprised he is still alive with scum hoping that wicked will be mislynched. HOWEVER, this is a really strange thing that neither the vig nor the "cop" were rbed, and

the cop wasn't redirected

. it was a big gamble for scum to make, however... im inclined to look into other candidates today as well. this isn't a 2 person scum team.

Remind me. How do you know this?

@Ethos- You said you were familiar with el simo's town meta. Does he normally change his mind so often?

I'm almost done with my analysis. But, atm, I think I might end up switching my vote to el simo.

[Wickedestjr]

Thanks for the answer, tarsonisocelot. That helps a LOT.

Don't lynch anybody, yet. I have, what I feel, are very strong points to bring up.

[Wickedestjr]

Post coming in a few minutes. I recently realized that tarsonisocelot is almost definitely scum.

[Wickedestjr]

And I'm almost positive that I've figured out who her buddy is.

[Wickedestjr]

Okay, so originally I strongly believed that avasthearties was scum, but now, after looking at interactions and actually taking the Vifam scumflip into account, I've found stronger evidence. The remaining scum are tarsonisocelot and el simo. If I'm wrong about that, then avasthearties is almost definitely scum, but I'm pretty sure it's right. Below I've commented on all the telling interactions between Yonzy/Vifam and each of my top four suspects. I noticed a very strong connection between el simo and tarsonisocelot but I'll get to that later. I've made you guys wait long enough and it's time for me to post what I have, now.

Vifam/Yonzy + avasthearties:

Firstly, avasthearties comments regarding Vifam/Yonzy. At the end of day 1 I posted a case against avasthearties which partially had to do with his comments on vifam/Yonzy which I felt were unusual/awkward and came out of nowhere. I have no idea why he mentioned Vifam/Yonzy in the post in question unless he was scum who felt obligated to comment on his scumbuddy.

Secondly, Vifam's posts. He's shown that he's aware of avasthearties' coasting and lack of contribution, but for some reason he didn't think avasthearties was an option we should have directed our scumhunting towards. Vifam and avasthearties could be connected.

Vifam/Yonzy + el simo:

Yonzy defends ConfidAnon's post 35 where he votes el simo. He says:

Imo it seemed liek a legit reason to vote El simo.. I would've done the same thing, and even if it wasn't, he had reason for his suspicion.. so there's really no need to vote him.

This sounds like somebody that knows el simo is scum and that ConfidAnon is right to vote him. Yonzy says he would've done the same thing, but he was the first player to post after el simo's supposed AtE and didn't pay any attention to it. Even after it was pointed out Yonzy doesn't vote for el simo nor does he even express suspicion of him. This is weird considering he wasn't seriously voting or suspecting anybody else (in fact, this was the same post he placed his late RVS vote ).

Secondly, Vifam said that el simo was one of the options he thought was worth looking into, however, he never (unless I missed something) interacted with el simo. This could be because he was scum, but he did interact with his other two suspects, LobsterCatapult and bobsnox. Vifam called el simo's vote for KKN opportunistic, but there was no followup even after el simo elaborated on the vote for KKN. You could say this was because Vifam was scum, but if that's the case, why did he get in an exchange with his other suspect, bobsnox, who was town?

Thirdly, el simo expresses suspicion of Vifam but isn't capable of explaining why. If you read through his iso, you'll notice he never does explain which shows a lack of interest in Vifam which is odd considering all the attention Vifam was getting at the end of day 1.

Finally, I have trouble seeing the Vifam bandwagon be an all town bandwagon considering the speed of it. This was the final votecount of day 1:

Day 1 Final Votecount

Vifam - 7 (Rainbowdash, ConfidAnon, YankCane151, HezLucky, HorrifyingHero, el simo, Wickedestjr)
Rainbowdash - 1 (bobsnox)
avasthearties - 1 (Kid Know Nothing)
HezLucky - 1 (Vifam)
bobsnox - 1 (avasthearties)

Not Voting - tarsonisocelot, LobsterCatapult

The people voting Vifam were... Rainbowdash, confirmed town. ConfidAnon, probably town. YankCane151, likely town. HezLucky, likely town. Horrifying Hero, likely town. Wickedestjr, confirmed town (from my perspective). That leaves el simo. So I believe either this bandwagon was all town or el simo is scum.

In conclusion, I believe there's a pretty strong connection between el simo and Vifam.

Vifam/Yonzy + LobsterCatapult

Firstly, LobsterCatapult's comments regarding Yonzy. Originally, her response to Yonzy's late/unneccessary random vote was 'lol Yonzy'. Combined with the reasoning for her 'lol Yonzy' comment which she gives later, I get the impression that LobsterCatapult isn't Yonzy/Vifam's scumbuddy. When she does give her reasoning for the 'lol Yonzy' comment, she never does explicitly express suspicion of Yonzy- it is IIoA. IIRC, aside from myself, nobody else commented or acknowledged Yonzy's weird post prior to LobsterCatapult's acknowledgement. So LobsterCatapult didn't comment on it because she felt obligated to so the only other reason for her commenting on it was to distance herself from Yonzy. But she did a poor job of that if that was the motive. She never even expresses suspicion of Yonzy.

Next, Friend's wall post. His stance on Vifam is really weird, but I'm unable to determine the scum motive for taking such a strange stance. I'll be more specific. My main issue with Friend's wall post is that his reads don't match up with the pool of players he wouldn't mind getting lynched:

Out of that group (Yonzy, avast, bobs, el simo, Rainbow), my list looks something like this from towniest to scummiest:

Bobs
el simo
Yonzy (Vifam)
Rainbow
Avast

They're all pretty scummy, TBH. None of those are town reads. Wouldn't be surprised if there were 2.

TLDR:For all you lazy fucks that don't like reading, here's a pool of people that I wouldn't mind seeing get some rope:

WICKED
YANK
SIMO
BOBS
AVAST
TARSON

That's not in any particular order, but I consider everyone not on that list prob-town for the time being.

Note that, in the first quote, Friend says that Vifam is pretty scummy, but in the second list Friend doesn't put Vifam in his lynch pool and says that Vifam is prob-town. That's really weird. The only reasons I don't find it too suspicious are because I don't see a scum motive and Friend's stance on Rainbowdash is just as weird (and Rainbowdash was town).

Finally, LobsterCatapult's comments regarding Vifam in post 403 and post 535. Her comment in post 535 is a bit weird, but I have trouble imagining post 403 coming from Vifam's scumbuddy.

In conclusion, there are a few reasons to believe LobsterCatapult is connected to Vifam and it's not a terrible lynch, but I'm leaning town.

Vifam/Yonzy + tarsonisocelot:

After reading tarsonisocelot in isolation, I am

extremely

bothered by the lack of attention she has gotten recently. She mentioned the Vifam/Yonzy once throughout the course of day 1. Her one mention of Vifam/Yonzy was here where she mentions a very small suspicion of Yonzy. However, this suspicion was only given when asked for it by ConfidAnon. Aside from that, she completely ignored Yonzy/Vifam for the rest of the game. She completely ignored the Vifam bandwagon at the end of day 1 and never even expressed interest in joining it.

Summary:

There's a small connection between LobsterCatapult and the dead scum and a slightly stronger connection between avasthearties and the dead scum, but there is a strong connection between el simo and the dead scum and a very strong connection between tarsonisocelot and the dead scum. I wouldn't mind any of these four players getting lynched, but I would prefer to see an el simo lynch or a tarsonisocelot lynch. There's also a strong connection between el simo and tarsonisocelot (so my suspicion isn't just based on this post) which I'll get to later. Also, I have some other points against these two players which I noticed when doing my analysis. These other points have nothing to do with interactions, but are still pretty telling imo.

[Wickedestjr]

We still have 2-3 days left. If I can't convince enough people to vote for el simo or tarsonisocelot, then I

will

switch to LobsterCatapult before the deadline arrives.

[Wickedestjr]

Also, I don't think I'm exaggerating the tarsonisocelot/Vifam-Yonzy interactions.

[Wickedestjr]

LobsterCatapult is currently the leading wagon.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP:

It should be:
LobsterCatapult- 5 votes
Wickedestjr- 2 votes
Fenix- 2 votes

[Wickedestjr]

Interactions Between el simo and tarsonisocelot:

Firstly, let me remind you of earlier when I voted tarsonisocelot for not doing any scumhunting, giving any thoughts, or seriously voting/suspecting anybody. tarsonisocelot defended against this case by saying this was her playstyle and said that this was because she needs more information. However, that didn't stop tarsonisocelot from seriously voting el simo in her post 41. Later she says that it was because his supposed AtE bothered her more than anyone else at the time. If that was the case, why wasn't she able to seriously vote anybody later in the game until we got more information to work with? It's because her vote for el simo was an early distancing vote. Otherwise, her behavior early in the game made no sense if she's town.

Secondly, in post 322 tarsonisocelot gives her reads on four of the players because she was asked to (IIRC). el simo is one of the players tarsonisocelot gave her read of. My issue with this post is that, unlike the other three reads, tarsonisocelot doesn't justify her el simo nullread- it's IIoA. This reeks of scum reluctant to give a read on their scumbuddy.

Thirdly, you'll notice that throughout the course of the game, tarsonisocelot has voted el simo three times. She voted him in her post 41 but never did explain the vote or express suspicion of el simo, despite stating her vote was serious later. There was also no followup to the vote and she never asked el simo any questions (which is odd considering she had her vote on him) until this post where she finally switched her vote. She votes el simo again in post 496 but removes the vote immediately after el simo responds here and states that she didn't really even remember her reasoning. tarsonisocelot votes el simo a third time in post 644 but this vote doesn't come until after LobsterCatapult expresses suspicion of him and votes him first. tarsonisocelot uses bandwagoning as a point to justify this vote but never mentioned the point earlier. What's worse is that tarsonisocelot does nothing with this vote. el simo asks her about the case before defending and tarsonisocelot never elaborates which shows that she doesn't actually care about el simo defending himself. She switched her vote before even seeing a defense from him. I strongly get the impression that tarsonisocelot is desperately trying to distance herself from her scumbuddy.

Fourthly, one of the more important points, IIRC, el simo has completely ignored tarsonisocelot throughout the whole game and only interacted with her when defending himself from her votes. I don't know what his read of tarsonisocelot is. If you're too lazy to read through his iso, you can just look at his catchup post to get a good idea. There's no mention of tarsonisocelot in it.

More later. Just a note: I'm not expecting to get either of these players lynched (even though I would prefer that to happen), but I don't expect to be alive tomorrow, so I'm getting all of my thoughts out there.

[Wickedestjr]

This is a lie, I was the first person to push Vifams lynch over Rainbowdashes and did state that I was comfortable lynching him.

Uh... no. Your comments regarding Vifam consist of:

bobsnox is my most town read, ViFam I don't like, can't say why I'd have to reread him in ISO.

I wouldn't be opposed to a Vifam lynch.

Why RDash over Vifam?

...and that's it. I hardly call that pushing for the Vifam lynch. You never even called him scum. You said you didn't like him and you wouldn't be opposed to his lynch. And you never even brought up any points against Vifam. How can you push for a player's lynch without bringing up any points against that player? You can't. You were most certainly not pushing for Vifam's lynch. Stop trying to get the town points.

Because bobsnox was my strongest scum read?

You misread my point. I was talking about Vifam.

Wicked, you are hugely underplaying the strength of the Lobster/Vifam/Avast connection, as me and Ethos have both seperately noted, there is a lot more than you are showing.

I disagree. And I took note of all the interactions I noticed. I just left out the ones which I felt were nulltells.

Your first point against me is nonsense, how does, "It sounds like a legit reason to vote el simo" come off as having knowledge that I am scum? He isn't even commenting on my alignment, he is specifically refering to the logic used in his argument when voting me. His post doesn't even mention alignment.

Uh... no. Yonzy defended ConfidAnon's vote by saying:

Imo it seemed liek a legit reason to vote El simo..

I would've done the same thing

, and even if it wasn't, he had reason for his suspicion.. so there's really no need to vote him.

He says he would've voted you too, which implies suspicion of you, but he didn't ever vote you.

Saying that Vifam didn't look into me after expressing suspicion is biased, because Vifam didn't follow up his suspicion of Hez, RDash and bob either. He was just a bad player.

Uh... no. He said he wanted to direct the scumhunting towards LC, bob, and you. He did question bobsnox in several of his posts, he directed a whole post towards LobsterCatapult at least partially explaining his suspicion, justifying his reasons, and questioning the things she said, but he never questioned you, brought up one point against you, and didn't even explain the point.

tl;dr my connection is that there is a lack of a connection. Essentially I'm scum because Tarsonis is apparently scum, which just doesn't make sense. I've had minimal interactions and haven't explained my views on Yank, Hez, Magua and RDash. Are they all my partners too?

Uh.... NO! There's a pretty noticeable difference between your interactions and views of each of these players and your interactions and view of tarsonisocelot. Early in the game, you seriously voted HezLucky got into an exchange with him and didn't change your vote until about 40 posts later. You expressed suspicion of Rainbowdash at the end of day 1 for believing my claim. And, while you, admittedly, don't pay much attention to YankCane, you at least mentioned him in your reread post and comment on the HezLucky vs. YankCane exchange.

Lobster needs to die already, maybe then Wicked will drop this nonsense.

What does this mean?

More later. Don't have time to post anything else right now.

[Wickedestjr]

Also I didn't claim playstyle, I claimed external events which almost lead to me replacing out.

That's not true. In response to my vote, you said:

Wicked, it's a bit early in the game to claim anything definite based on a lack of stated suspicions. I never know what to do as any alignment early game and need more information than you appear to to develop a list of reads.

I ask questions to get people to clarify what they mean and provide more information to evaluate them on. And I try to ask in a non-confrontational manner where possible, so you are likely to find conditional words in my question sentences - to HH, who still has not explained their Wicked vote, for example.

No mention of external events here.

[Wickedestjr]

I got an innocent on tarsonisocelot. I'm guessing HezLuckyscum tried to kill me and Magua guarded me. Not sure who I'm going to vote today. I need to reread with the new flips in mind.

[Wickedestjr]

I don't have time to post or take a look at this game right now, but I will say this. Ethos and tarsonisocelot are NOT confirmed town. One of them could be a Mafia Godfather.

On a side note, I'm town unless you think Amor didn't put a single investigative role in this game.

[Wickedestjr]

Sorry guys. I've been very busy. My thoughts...

HezLucky scumflip makes Horrifying Hero, el simo, and Krazy (who replaced KKN iirc) look much better. I'm also pretty sure Ethos is town as well (but I might have to look at his and ConfidAnon's interactions with HezLucky). That leaves tarsonisocelot and Fenix. I think one of those two players is the last scum. Getting an innocent on tarsonisocelot and Ethos doesn't clear them because either of them could be a Mafia Godfather, so I'd still be happy with a tarsonisocelot lynch despite the investigation result. I still need to take a look at interactions between certain players, but until then, I think I'd like to

Vote: tarsonisocelot

. But if nobody's interested in this lynch, then I'll hammer Fenix.

[Wickedestjr]

jesus christ wicked you suspect two people, ones at L-1, one has no votes.

Which one should you be voting?

I'm voting the player I suspect the most. And I made it pretty clear that I'd hammer Fenix if I couldn't convince enough people to vote tarsonisocelot.

Why is it so unlikely that tarsonisocelot is mafia?