Newbie 1138 - Game Over! Town Win!

[whilst]

Alright, I'm just gonna get some questions out just so we can get to know each other a bit.
1. How many games have you played at MafiaScum?
2. Have you played anywhere else prior to MafiaScum?
3. Do you believe in magic?
4. Know any of the other players in the game from prior games?

1. 0 games
2. Yes, on another forum.
3. No.
4. Yes. As he already stated, Abel and I have played on another forum.

[whilst]

Does anybody care about anyone else's answers to those four questions? I feel like it was just a stupid survey and I'm never going to read anyone else's answers or think about it again.

I care, I want to know if people have played before. 100% brand new players play much different from people who have a handful of games under their belt.

You're question is absolutely pointless, considering:
A. 7/9 town is NOT mafia.
B. If there were a Night start kill, who would die would most likely be random considering half of us don't know each other.

You're giving off a "let's get down to business, enough with this tomfoolery," attitude, which in my opinion is scummy. I'm not going to be leading a lynch on you or anything as of yet, but I've got my eye on you.

It's not pointless, we're in Day 1. In order to help make an decisions in the following days there needs to be discussion to read back on.

He could've just posted to make you angry. Anyway, if I were mafia, I would have naturally killed one of the IC players. Why would I keep alive the people who were most likely to figure me out? (That's assuming more experience = better player).

[whilst]

EBWOP: Lemme rephrase, people saying they'd kill experienced players gives us no info it just shows that they understand the obvious.

Just looked up that acronym.

Yeah, I agree. Again, it's still a question to be answered.

[whilst]

I was

able to honestly

scumhunt like any other townie

You did this on purpose.

So that's why I'm asking my question. I would appreciate it if you'd answer rather than skirt the issue, BBmolla.

I think you can safely assume he would've picked an IC. The only reason he'd continue to argue with you is if he were mafia and wished to delay further discussion.

[whilst]

i have a couple questions. townies, what's your strategy? mafiosos, what is yours?

In every game I've played (whatever alignment I may be), I've always decided the best action on Day 1 is to

not

vote "No Lynch" -- ending a day prematurely is horrible: If you're mafia, you miss out on chances to make other people look like scum. If you're a townie, you miss out on chances to draw out the scum. Regardless, I also will not lynch another player, unless he or she is obviously mafia. I think you'd agree that it's difficult to have an accurate mafia lynch.

BBMolla

• He only answered my question (begrudgingly) after whilst pointed out that BB would only continue arguing if he were scum.

It's not like it changed anything. Both of you are still arguing. Granted it's discussion, neither of you seem capable of "moving on". I think both of you need to accept the fact that you have diverging strategies.

[whilst]

Personally, I don't have any issue with any of the questions asked thus far. In fact, I have my own question to ask everyone. @Everyone- Did you want to be mafia or town this game? Which allignment would you have liked to receive the most?

I overlooked this. I wanted to be mafia, I think it's more fun. I like to kill people (ha). It's hard to be unhappy with any role you receive though. This is all personal preference though.

A question about the game

Are we expected to tally the vote counts by ourselves? Or will the moderator do this for us?

[whilst]

whilst

whilst has been playing the people pleaser. Despite the criticism BBmolla and I exchanged about our questions, whilst continually agreed with both of us about everything until post #50, in which he disagreed with both of us. I was going to keep track of whilst's propensity to act agreeable or neutral. As of yet, I've come to no conclusion about whether this is the act of a polite townie or cautious scum, which is why I didn't want to share so soon.

I'm sorry I've been so pleasing, I'll be more of a dick in the future. I didn't disagree with either of you in #50, if that's how you really read it. I was telling both of you to move on.

Wickedestjr

Wickedestjr

, your reaction has no substance:

I agree with Honest Abel's point against him in his post 56. It looks like he's been playing the people pleaser and it seems like he's trying to avoid attracting any attention or suspicion.

I'm assuming you wouldn't have thought about that 'argument' unless

Honest Abel

had pointed it out. If I'm trying to avoid attracting any attention, it's because I'm being a good townie. But, you seem to disagree.

Furthermore, he hasn't taken any real stances yet in the game, but also hasn't been doing anything to obtain reads, either.

Do you expect me to participate in the

RVS

? Or do you want my thoughts on who is a townie and who isn't? I don't have any reads, because I have nothing to go by. There isn't anything in anyone's argument that makes me want to cast my lynch vote.

[whilst]

Thanks

I Am Innocent

. I'll keep that in mind if I'm hesitant to cast my lynch vote in the future.

Is anyone else interested in having a go at BBmolla? Anyone interested in critiquing my line of questioning/reasoning?

Your reasoning is fine, but I also feel that BBmolla's responses are adequate. As easy as it is to retract a "lynch", I am just not comfortable with leaving my lynch vote on a player who I am not 85% convinced to be mafia aligned.

Note: 85% is just a random 'majority' number, for a lack of a better word.

Some slight concern on whilst for not voting/not taking a stance, and while I'm noting it here, I still read town in most of his other posts.[/b]

This may be because I'm new, but it may also be because I share a much different play style from other people: I don't understand the alarm caused by a player (in this case, me) not

"taking a stance"

. If I have any pressing concerns, I will share them. For the record, I have no stance. That doesn't mean I don't have any "thoughts"; I'm just keeping them to myself--

why?

Well:

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.

If I point out the flaw, the player will fix his/her behavior, something I don't want.

[whilst]

cavjj

, first I just want to know why this never materialized:

Alright all, just got back and promised a post, will be with you shortly

Instead of making a post (sorry if I missed it...), you came back and just hammered. Day 1 discussion should have continued, it's extremely useful for us in the following days.

So let's talk about Scumhunter then. I made one tiny comment asking whether he was lurking (to which he said yes!). Think like a scum for a moment (maybe you don't have to...). My hammer is obviously going to arouse suspicion. Maybe it's extreme newbishness, maybe I'm scum, maybe I'm confident in my reads. But N1, two scum are reading the game and going: "Wow, cavjj is in trouble here, if we get rid of Scumhunter he's going to look even worse...". I wouldn't be that stupid if I was scum.

I think your reasoning if off here. The mafia would never kill anyone that isn't posting (or just lurking). If you're mafia, you kill someone who is useful. You kill someone who is going to put "2 and 2 together" and figure you out. A player that isn't here can't vote to lynch you.

[whilst]

Right, just thought that over. I guess you're saying:

1. the mafia makes you, cavjj, look bad
2. the town ends up lynching cavjj
3. In the end its two townies dead, cavjj and scumhunter
4. It is also Night 2, mafia gets another kill

I don't know. I still think the mafia would lynch someone helpful, than try to frame another player.

[whilst]

Hey whilst, can we get some of your reads now?

Fair request. As soon as everyone posts their reactions to N1, I'll let you guys know how I feel on everyone.

Actually, let's not just leave the question just to me.

Once everyone has responded

, we should

all

post what we think of everyone. The responses + the knowledge of two innocent players should help make some decent headway.

[whilst]

Why wait? Considering you've openly refused to share your thoughts, I'd like to hear something from you.

If I make reactions now, I'm only using the information of two innocent townies. I can make a better analysis after I see everyone's thoughts on the N2 lynch and cavjj's hammer.

I've shared my thoughts on cavjj, now I'm just waiting for everyone else.

[whilst]

I'm pretty annoyed by whilst's outright refusal to say anything. Abel, is this how he plays?

I had already said I would post my thoughts on everyone when everyone's reaction came in. Not everyone had responded to the thread, so I didn't post my thoughts. Day 2 is going to end anytime soon, you can be a bit more patient I hope.

He's going to hate me for saying this, but yeah, whilst is pretty bad. I agree with you about Napoleon, whilst, but answer dicknose's questions please.

Yeah, I'm pretty bad. Which is probably why I wasn't mafia killed during N1.

Anyway, with two townies (BBmolla and Scumhunter) dead

I think everyone here should go back to D1 and read the day knowing their intentions were purely benign

. Right, so, thoughts on the crowd:

cavjj

The obvious point here is the fact that he hammered and ended Day 1 prematurely. I'm sure he's high on everyone else's list too. If anything, I just didn't like his reasoning before his hammer:

I am considering it to be fair, in my eyes, you are only probably third on my list of suspects, but N1 will give us lots more to think about and as I have previously said, I would rather risk losing a VT than letting a potential scum escape, even if it is D1 and we haven't got lots to go on.

We're all potential scum, I don't see why you just don't vote for all of us to be lynched. I don't believe scumhunter was lynched at random. He was probably picked just so cavjj could defend himself appropriately. Your accusations of anyone else on the bandwagon being scum can't really be defended, seeing as you did make the vote permanent. The thing is, no one else wanted to end the day, except

DarkClaymore

.

DarkClaymore

Here you go:

And honestly, I hate D1. There's hardly any information that can be extracted during this phase. Especially since we can't force a tie between players and are forced to make a majority.

and...

Honestly, I just want D1 to end and hopefully N1 will give us more info to work with. So I'll just join the wagon.

I can't just assume you wanted to learn more information about the game, because then you would've expressed that you wanted D1 to continue. I've said it before, Day 1 does help us in the later days. More information is always better. Just sort through the garbage.

[...]

I just refreshed, some more of you have jumped on to vote DarkClaymore, as I was going to. I expected more people to vote for cavjj (for his hammer of course), however I didn't want to put the third vote on him, because I don't want him hammered. I want Day 2 to go on as long as possible.

NO ONE should seal the lynch until everyone has replied

. We're still missing a few people. Until then, I will vote DarkClaymore's probably partner:

VOTE: cavjj

[whilst]

type, above:

Day 2 is going to end anytime soon, you can be a bit more patient I hope.

Should be:
Day 2 is

not

going to end anytime soon, you can be a bit more patient I hope.

[whilst]

First, let me answer this:

Let's get this out of the way: If you were mafia, who would you have killed N1 and why?

If I were mafia, I would've killed you. You post way too much. Long posts too. I would've hoped the Doctor wasn't protecting you, or that you were the doctor and just gone for it. Besides, I would've just played off the "no mafia kill during N1" as a mind-fuck for the town to deal with. My second choice? Probably an IC, for the same reasons as I would've killed them on N0 -- less experience, the better.

I'm not being patient because it feels too much like you're waiting for other people's opinions to agree with and bandwagons to jump on. Luckily that wasn't an option for you here. How about those mistakes you were seeing before? Have they kept being made? Did someone scare off your suspect from making those mistakes?

It's easier to make opinions on people after you've seen their reactions to the night kill, don't you agree?

You're referring to my Napoleon quote. I guess I shouldn't have, but I assumed Day 1 would've gone on longer. I was hoping I could read more posts, and find enough flaws to make a point. I said I wouldn't share my thoughts because then whatever I pointed out, could be fixed, and then I would have nothing to point out anymore. I was being pressured to make an opinion, so I defended my reasoning not to. No, no one scared me off from anything; that doesn't make any sense. The worst the mafia can do is kill me during the night, what kind of fear is that? Only one where I couldn't help the town anymore, sure. I'm not dodging your inquiries either, I just can't answer to "Have they kept being made?" -- because I don't know if they will be. We need more discussion.

[whilst]

I didn't ask if you were scared.

Ah, I guess I just read this sentence too quickly:

Did someone scare off your suspect from making those mistakes?

Sorry.

And you can answer the last part, it's a yes or no question. If a mistake was made more than once, say yes. There's nothing to potentially be given away. Are there even any mistakes that have been made, or was that just something to say so you could compare yourself to Napoleon?

Suit yourself, my answer is 'no'. Like you said, there's nothing to be given away.

Have you noticed anything yourself or are you just going to keep waiting and then agreeing with everyone else?

I consider this to be a direct attack. Please clarify.

[whilst]

I'm not being patient because it feels too much like you're waiting for other people's opinions to agree with and bandwagons to jump on.

For someone who tries so hard not to show his hand, does it bother you at all that everything you've said is said first by other people? You don't want to stop mistakes from being made, but it looks like everyone else is doing that for you and it doesn't seem to bother you at all.

If you're going to make an argument, at least use concrete examples. The rest of the town can read my posts, they can play how they want--regardless of my strategy. I'm not going to tell everyone "stop pointing out flaws". That play style has it's own advantages too: If you bring a point of discontinuity, the original poster can hesitate and make more mistakes.

cavjj is new, inexperienced. It almost... makes sense that he did what he did, considering who he is and how he thinks. I don't find that scummy at all. You do have to consider whether or not he's smarter than he's letting on. But I think the fact that he reconciled and admitted his hammer was a mistake is probably a good sign that he's newbtown. I will not be a part of a cavjj lynch unless either DarkClaymore or I Am Innocent turn up town. And I don't think they will.

I know you're not defending him, but I don't see an apology as acquitting him of all charges. As for IAI and DarkClaymore, we'll just have to wait until they respond then.

[whilst]

Okay whilst, I admit I wasn't reading thoroughly enough and may have been too harsh in my reaction, but can you understand that it is frustrating when you won't post and then only post about two of the biggest suspects other people have? Not sharing what very well may be helpful is pretty anti-town.

Yeah--I mean, I would also be suspicious of someone else who didn't want to post their opinion. I don't know why, I don't want to tell anyone if I think he or she is innocent to me; I don't want their behavior to change because of me (or do I, so I could point it out?)....but that'd be disastrous, it'd give other players a reason not to contribute. Yeah, I'll be more upfront (overall). My thoughts on the rest of the living town (I refuse to assign numbers to "how scummy" everyone is, it'll be misconstrued.):

Wickedestjr

While his only attack against me was something Abel brought up (and I addressed here, in

#75

, he hasn't said anything else at me. I don't know if he's cleared me of suspicion or not, but I have yet to formulate a complete opinion on him. I'm waiting for his reactions to N1 and the current D2 discussions.

I Am Innocent

He stated that his strategy was to make people take stances

#47

, and so people have. He also expressed concern towards me of not taking a stance (but wasn't as pressing as dicknose has been),

#85

so he has shown continuity. I read over his D2 reactions, and do agree with his points. Unlike Abel, I do not find him too suspicious. Frankly, I think Abel is drilling him for a reaction. But are you reading this or their current discussion? Heh. If anything changes in my mind from their discussion, I'll post an opinion accordingly.

Like I said, Page 4/Post 91 is not usually when I go all in. In that particular game, everyone was going after VI kiari and I was trying to prevent a townie mislynch.

I don't think you need to use a previous game's example to help clarify your point. You could be a completely different person--especially with a different role. Just saying, I don't think anyone should be allowed to use material outside of this game to help with anything other than newbie confusion. Again, just my opinion.

Honest Abel

Speaking of Abel. He's certainly been posting the most (if not in post count, then most in

volume

), which can still go both townie or scum--but he's been promoting discussion the entire game (I don't think I have to link to anything). He was brought to L-1 before, and didn't respond in a panicky manner. Either he can keep his cool, or he can keep his cool. The biggest point I have here is that none of his discussions have dragged on for "pointless" reasons: His argument with BBmolla was short lived (see pages 2 and 3). Even after I pointed out that it "appeared" to be scummy in nature, their discussion went onwards. So much for a reaction.

dicknose

Finally, dicknose. (I posted about cavjj and DarkClaymore

earlier

). I guess if he didn't press me enough, I would've have started typing this either. Granted it's to see if I will trip up and possibly expose myself as mafia, it's something I'm expect him to extend to other players who do not honor their 'promises to post'. I don't have much else to say about him, other than his active play style. Unless I missed it, I can't quote a post by anyone else with a negative reaction to his posts. So I guess all is good? Well, just this small thing:

dicknose

, I want to know why you took your vote off of cavjj at post

#124

. It doesn't seem as if cavjj adequately responded to your inquiries (which is just my opinion). Just a clarification please.

I've adopted a better style of formatting (other players have too), more or less. Hyper-linking to posts helps with clarification. It's a bit tedious to format, but I urge everyone else to follow suit if he/she decides to make longer posts.

[whilst]

cavjj & DarkClaymore

As for the "making him feel that someone agrees with him" part. I'm fairly sure I stated I hate D1 way back at the beginning before he even expressed any desire to end it. I just did what I wanted to. I could easily be in his place and hammer for the sake of ending D1. The only reason I wouldn't have done it if I were him is that many players were against doing it so soon. I suppose he refused to seriously consider this fact and it's obvious that he should get all this attention for what he did.

We could just ask him if he did consider it.

cavjj

-- did you consider the fact that most people were against ending D1 before you hammered?

DarkClaymore

#121: "Oh no, he got us" comment is trying way too hard to look unaffected. Predictably, he goes on to accuse cavjj both of hammering scummily and trying to make him and IAI look bad. He then brings up WIFOM again to talk about the night kill, which is meant to make it appear indecipherable. Useless. Now he's saying that "I still would have chosen the IC." Still, huh? Compare to #90 when he says the response of killing the IC is "wrong." He then votes for the IC for not dying, because according to his own crazy rambling on the subject, anyone dying but the IC means the IC is guilty. Love it.

Well, what did you expect? After how no one really expressed that they think in the direction that the IC not dying during the night is suspicious, there was no longer point in keeping him alive in order to frame him. After seeing the answers then I would have either killed the IC or at the very least investigated him.

But why is the IC not dying suspicious? I have said before that I would have killed an IC (based on skill), but that's more of a personal strategy than a point of suspicion. Being Mafia also means making the smarter kill. Has the IC been posting?

Wickedestjr

has made a total of 5 posts. He's voted to lynch me basically for no reason (i've pointed this out before), really...So much for being active. As mafia, why kill someone who hasn't been contributing? Right, right, this may be a premature comment, of course: We are still waiting on his N1 and D2 reaction post.

---

Mod Notes:

• Please don't forget that red and blue are reserved colors for the mod. Using a variant of either can be misconstrued as imitating the mod, and is grounds for a modkill. As the post in question was not actually a color tag, there's no penalty, just a friendly reminder of things to avoid. Thanks!

Sorry! I'll refrain from using the ooc tag.

I'll just use a small green style instead.

[whilst]

All you do by being

too active

as town is becoming night kill target. True, active scumhunting is good. But no need to overdo it. If you believe you are good at scumhunting and can really help the town, why do this in a way that will night kill you? It's much better to do in a more moderate way and survive longer for the sake of the town.

To be fair, as long as there are other "too active" players in the game, none of them need to worry that they are standing out.

1. Dark Claymore
2. IAI

cavjj is your current vote cast on DarkClaymore? I know it doesn't mean much if he only has 1 or 2 votes on him, but I'm just curious.

Umm... I hardly have a list tbh but if I had to pick then the list would be:

1) Wickedestjr
2) Honest Abel

I'm going to assume you put Wickedstjr at the top because of the fact that

he could be waiting for us to lynch each other

, and is not really missing in action. Am I correct? I'm asking because I've had the same rising suspicion. I don't think it's paranoia.

Still, I would put him at three or four on my list. I still want to hear his thoughts. My top two (yes, still):
1. cavjj
2. DarkClaymore

[whilst]

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing holding this Day back from proceeding is the fact that Wickedestjr needs to share his input. I'm prepared to lynch either I Am Innocent or DarkClaymore, preferably in that order. I Am Innocent is being outrageously scummy, whereas DarkClaymore is being outrageously scummy but has the excuse of being a newb. I'd also prefer to kill the brains of the operation rather than the lackey, so that the subsequent mafia actions won't be quite as well-planned.

Your viewpoint could change when Wickedestjr joins in for (at least) a few pages of conversation. Don't convince yourself of only suspecting I Am Innocent and DarkClaymore.

Also, we shouldn't lynch anyone until

at least

next week (real time). That should help make up for the lack of Day 1 progress.

[whilst]

Your viewpoint could change when Wickedestjr joins in for (at least) a few pages of conversation. Don't convince yourself of only suspecting I Am Innocent and DarkClaymore.

Hey, that was my point.

Well you stole my post about how Wickedestjr only posted 5x. We're even.

Also, we shouldn't lynch anyone until

at least

next week (real time). That should help make up for the lack of Day 1 progress.

Then again, I think at a certain point, things begin to regress. I'd say we were nearing the pinnacle of a good time to lynch if not for Wickedestjr.

No we're not. Not everyone here is as convinced as your are on I Am Innocent nor DarkClaymore. The same goes for cavjj.
Ok, fine, you said "nearing". -- perhaps.

at this point, based on how discussion has gone so far, does everybody think i'm town? if you have any criticisms, please lay them out.

You're actually third on my scum list. Now, do you think I'm town?

[whilst]

You're actually third on my scum list. Now, do you think I'm town?

why is that? come at me, bro.

I was 1% hoping you'd say something else, or someone else would say "omg whilst is scum because he said this", but no one did. The statement was pure BS, but really--no one else has called you out, I think you can safely answer your own question.

Okay, this is what I promised earlier: let's take a look at the reasons, or lack of reason, DarkClaymore gives for voting what he's voted.

Vote on BBmolla

Honestly, I just want D1 to end and hopefully N1 will give us more info to work with. So I'll just join the wagon. Also, when people tend to see two players arguing, they often say "Nah. It's probably two townies gunning at each other". But I have seen cases in which it was proven false. While not too much of a solid reason, at least it still is a reason.

VOTE: BBmolla

Summary: He wants D1 to end, and

sometimes

"two townies gunning at each other" turns out to be false. Self-evidently poor reasoning. He also admits it's a bad reason, which makes it weird that he later says he always gives good reasons for his votes.

This was early on in the game, and basically in the RVS stage. That behavior means nothing -- didn't he vote for you initially during RVS? Anyway, I have already pointed out that he wanted Day 1 to end (he said it twice. Here is my post where I pointed it out: #148) and have used it as my reasoning for his scumminess. Any other suspicion I have of him is from your conversation with him where (yeah, I agree) his responses have been on the weak side.

The other points at which he votes for people to lynch are interesting to note, but none of the votes have "meant" anything, except for the vote on cavjj (as I have the second vote against cavjj). Do you get what I'm saying? The vote on wickedestjr didn't amount to anything, nor did the vote on you. It's just a pattern, imo -- his play style probably. I don't think it's anything to lynch him on. Or am I missing the point? Clarify if I am.

[whilst]

singersigner

Vote: Wickedjstr

.

Yeah, really.

Mod

, please replace him if he doesn't post by tomorrow noon. Pick any timezone you want.

Or warn him, or something.

Unless, again, it's part of his strategy.

Wickedjstr

If it is part of your strategy,

Wickedjstr

, give up. We will delay the game until August 22nd and ask for an extension unless you post your thoughts and contribute.

[whilst]

NobodySpecial replaces Wickedestjr! Please welcome him with warm arms!

Sure.

[whilst]

I was 1% hoping you'd say something else, or someone else would say "omg whilst is scum because he said this", but no one did. The statement was pure BS, but really--no one else has called you out, I think you can safely answer your own question.

if you're fishing for reactions, you should probably go with it for more than one post.

Yeah, except that thinking requires being two steps ahead. I guess this segues: I'm hoping that's some part of Abel's strategy with his interrogation of IAI and DarkClaymore.

I'm going to do a quick ranking of players. Toward the top is more town, toward the bottom is more scum. Above the first line is town, between the two lines is neutral, and below the second line is scum. I'll also give blurbs later. Nobody special is obviously riding on Wickedestjr's laurels there, as neutral as they are.

dicknose
whilst
————————
Nobody Special
cavjj
————————
DarkClaymore
I Am Innocent

I can picture scumteam of either I Am Innocent & DarkClaymore or I Am Innocent & cavjj. On their own, though, DarkClaymore has been scummy and cavjj has seemed genuinely newbtown but should still be held with some suspicion for his actions.

If we're talking about mafia teams, I have a question I'd like everyone's thoughts on.

A question for the rest of the town:

Maybe the mafia duo is cavjj and Abel. Has anyone else defended cavjj other than Abel?

[whilst]

why is whilst more scummy than me?

He did something that appeared like indirectly defending me while arguing with Abel. I don't like people defending others when there is no a VERY good reason for that. Especially defending a lynchbait should be out of question. Players should be defending themselves.

Oh man, that's a great reason. I know it's just a list, but like I've said to dicknose before: cite your arguments.

[whilst]

How does acting like scum help you find scum?

Let me ask you. Let's assume you are scum. You see a player who is awfully suspicious and will almost certainly be lynched. What do you do during that day? Remember, as scum you know I'm innocent in this hypothetical situation..

Pretty nice question. I probably would've started to wage war against cavjj more than anyone else. He is/was "awfully suspicious" (imo) after his hammer. I probably would've kept my vote on him the entire time too -- like me. Actually, I wouldn't wage a massive war against the player, I would let someone else do the arguing for me, but I would agree and hope my lynch helps the bandwagon fall through. Something like that.

Nobody Special, come on. Put more effort in. We need your readings on the N1 kills and the D2 arguments.

[whilst]

whilst, why are you not voting for DarkClaymore? He is being obnoxiously scummy. Give me some good reasons tunneling dicknose is more important than questioning/lynching DC. I really don't get it. This guy has enough against him to be lynched three times. The way you are just ignoring that and actually complimenting his posts is really scummy. You are now on my scum list, which looks like this now, from least to most scummy:

Well, I still think cavjj is scummier than DarkClaymore. I would rather see him lynched over DC. Also, I'm waiting on the replacement to contribute more to the forum. Why don't you ask the other players to vote for DC instead?

Also, whilst, it looks like the only reason you are against dicknose here is because he put some pressure on you earlier, which is merely reactive. Let it go and move on to something else, if you have the power to do that.

In what way am I against dicknose. He put some pressure on me earlier yeah, but then he backed off when I asked him to cite some examples.

I wouldn't wage a massive war against the player, I would let someone else do the arguing for me, but I would agree and hope my lynch helps the bandwagon fall through. Something like that.

Like how you aren't arguing with me but agreeing with Darky's points against me? Good job, scum.

What points of DarkClaymore have I agreed with? I just answered his hypothetical question.

The main reason dicknose looks town to me is because he went after whilst when whilst said some scummy stuff, and now he's going after DarkClaymore because he's being consistently scummy. He's not stuck on one person, he puts pressure where it's needed. it's the easiest way to judge someone to be town, that I know of. And the reason I'm pointing this out is so you know who I'd want you all to trust once I'm dead.

IAI, cavjj, and NS are just sitting back and watching the drama unfold. Right now it looks like Abel & dicknose vs. DarkClaymore & whilst. I really want to know why whilst is so pro-DarkClaymore since he's easily the scummiest character I've ever played a mafia game with.

What scummy stuff did I say? The last time you called me out on being scum was during Day 1. You could've pointed something out before, or is this the Napolean thing? I'm not pro-DarkClaymore. Please point out where I was DarkClaymore, and I'll try to explain whatever it is I posted.

[whilst]

You talk to much for how little sense you make. You are clutching at straws. Somebody lynch this goon for god's sake.

No, don't lynch him. Wait until NS posts more, then do whatever you want.

[whilst]

Let's see what we have here.

Pretty nice question.

Sure it's a compliment and? I thought it was a good question to put things from his point of view.

Oh man, that's a great reason.

Sarcasm, can't you tell?

whilst, I'm going to look over your posts in detail, buddy. You're making me very wary. I'm just talking about how instead of doing anything productive, you're complimenting DC for his nonsense questions and rebuttals to dicknose. You've only really said anything about DC's posts that had to do with making dicknose seem like the minority. Maybe this is just recently, But I will find out soon enough. Also, the fact that DC said he was about to vote you when I implied you were on the same team was a really transparent way of trying to distance himself from you. I guess I really can't tell yet if it was a real attempt at distancing or if he was just trying to make you look scummy with him.

Well, be sure to point out what's making you wary. Could you make a 'productive' list for me? I want to see who is 'productive' in your eyes. DC can vote for me if he wants, I don't know why he should. He hasn't cited a reason for thinking I'm scummy -- other than this reason. Which I still don't understand.

I'm really not hopeful about NS posting. He's been active lurking in my other game, too. I would love to hear from him and I Am Innocent. However, I am more than ready to lynch DarkClaymore. This guy not only has got to go, but he's left so many good clues about other players that it should be cake enough to determine who his buddy is once he's gone.

We have so much time until Day 2 ends. Just be patient. If you're ready to lynch DarkClaymore, so be it. I'm just asking you to wait on NS's takes on N1 and D2.

Do I have to explain EVERYTHING? I mean seriously. Didn't you understand from what I was saying earlier?
Scum will prefer to not actively go after the lynchbait as that will make them VERY suspicious latter on. Whilst is doing this. Heck, you know what? I'm changing my opinion. If you are scum, your play style has too many risks. It's a reason that has been holding me for a while and that's why I should really make Whilst the top of my list and

VOTE: whilst

Like I said earlier, I think cavjj is scummier than you. I'm not going to jump on your lynch wagon and put you at L-1 -- (again), I don't want D-2 to end this early. Oh yeah, can I see the rest of your list? Assuming you've updated it.

[whilst]

I also have to say that the player I suspected acted pretty much like whilst is acting now. He was asked to vote but he refused without any solid reason. But again, I base this on a previous game and you won't like this reason.

I (more or less) refused to vote during D1, but thats the only case.

Like I said earlier, I think cavjj is scummier than you. I'm not going to jump on your lynch wagon and put you at L-1 -- (again), I don't want D-2 to end this early. Oh yeah, can I see the rest of your list? Assuming you've updated it.

You were quite against me when the day started. But suddenly somewhat changed your mind when it was obvious everyone suspect me.

No, wrong. I suspected you in the beginning of the day, yeah. I suspected cavjj more. Where did I "change my mind" about you?

DC can vote for me if he wants, I don't know why he should. He hasn't cited a reason for thinking I'm scummy -- other than this reason. Which I still don't understand.

I explained everything here

Ah, reading this now...I'll quote from that message here onwards:

The other points at which he votes for people to lynch are interesting to note, but none of the votes have "meant" anything, except for the vote on cavjj (as I have the second vote against cavjj). Do you get what I'm saying? The vote on wickedestjr didn't amount to anything, nor did the vote on you. It's just a pattern, imo -- his play style probably. I don't think it's anything to lynch him on. Or am I missing the point? Clarify if I am.

Here you are saying how you think most of my the votes are my playstye. Feels like a defense, as weak as it is. Strange how you try to make some of Abel's reasons seem off while you too said that I'm one of the top suspects on your list.

It's not strange, it's productive. I'm countering Abel's argument, yeah--so I can point out a flaw in his argument against you. He had been arguing with you and IAI at the time. I was active, and interjected in the conversation plenty of times.

I'm going to assume you put Wickedstjr at the top because of the fact that he could be waiting for us to lynch each other, and is not really missing in action. Am I correct? I'm asking because I've had the same rising suspicion. I don't think it's paranoia.

Still, I would put him at three or four on my list. I still want to hear his thoughts. My top two (yes, still):
1. cavjj
2. DarkClaymore

Also, here you try to outguess my reason and say you quite agree with it.

It feels like an attempt to show that you actually thought that I might be a reasonable town and that Abel was off by accusing me. This can work wonders for you if you are scum. Atm it seems like I'll be lynched. Once I get lynched and flip town, you'll be able to use some of these things you said against Abel in the next day. You can say that "I told him that he rushed too much and that some of his reasons were off".

It also appears like you are trying to please everyone. Both the town by agreeing I'm suspicious, and me by saying we agree about some stuff. That's just scummy.

Again, "some of his reasons were off". But wouldn't you agree that they were? You did defend yourself the entire time. The only way that strategy would work, is if I actually voted to have you killed. At that moment in the game (and now), you were/are in no danger of being lynched. If you were innocent, why wouldn't anyone suspect Abel for arguing with you?

Actually, I wouldn't wage a massive war against the player, I would let someone else do the arguing for me, but I would agree and hope my lynch helps the bandwagon fall through. Something like that.

And that's what scum usually do. And THAT'S exactly what I was looking for by lynchbait play. And you seem to fit the pattern to some extend with me being that very suspicious player.

DC, why should we even listen to your reasoning if it has nothing to do with this game? You're acting scummy because it somehow hypothetically helps you in a game with different rules than ours? Great. I have a feeling your references to fictional/irrelevant games is a nervous tick you develop as scum because it helps you avoid answering questions honestly.

Again. It has nothing to do with the different rules. It can work perfectly here as well.

Yeah it can, but every other game has different people with different roles. I don't want to get the impression of your behavior from another game. You could be innocent in another game, and mafia in this one, but still play the same way.

[whilst]

I'd say starting from here. You said Abel shouldn't be suspecting me and IAI that much while you yourself made me one of the suspects a few posts before.

From that post on is seemed as if you dropped the idea of chasing me.
And you ignored how I mentioned you outguessing my reason for putting the IC on the top.

I don't know how to react to your own interpretations of my behavior. All I can really say is, you were wrong to think that.
About the "outguess": It was just an idea I had, and maybe you had the same reason as me. I didn't have any ill-intentions by saying that. Mind you, it's still a plausible theory.

[whilst]

Abel, who do you want to see lynched at the conclusion of Day 2?

Assume that Nothing Special isn't going to post anytime soon.

[whilst]

whilst

I'd say starting from here. You said Abel shouldn't be suspecting me and IAI that much while you yourself made me one of the suspects a few posts before.

From that post on is seemed as if you dropped the idea of chasing me.
And you ignored how I mentioned you outguessing my reason for putting the IC on the top.

I don't know how to react to your own interpretations of my behavior. All I can really say is, you were wrong to think that.
About the "outguess": It was just an idea I had, and maybe you had the same reason as me. I didn't have any ill-intentions by saying that. Mind you, it's still a plausible theory.

All I can say is that you did and you are still doing it. Pleasing both sides. Here you do it again by calling my theory "plausible". Maybe you really think so, and maybe you are scum. Since I have no better ideas atm - I'm willing to go with the latter.

Abel #56, Wickedestjr (Now

Nobody

Special) #68, and you have brought this up. I am not "pleasing" anyone, I am adding arguments to both sides. If anything, I am helping both cases out. I'm just trying to help make sure we don't miss another way to look at things. Since I'm looking at your guys' conversations from a third-point-of-view, my reads on a situation have a good chance of being the same way that another player in the town interprets it.

Nobody Special

Abel, who do you want to see lynched at the conclusion of Day 2?

Assume that Nothing Special isn't going to post anytime soon.

Oh, and please: My name is

Nobody

Special.

I'm rather finicky about that.

My bad, sorry dude. Thanks for catching up with the game! In another post you stated you had reached page 10. Do you have anything to add about N1's victim?

Now we just need a little more from IAI and cavjj and we can make some more progress.

[whilst]

Why would you want to stay alive as long as possible if you know you suck and couldn't bring the town a win? That's pretty much playing against your wincon.

You went a bit overboard here. I know it's just your way of 'wording' the post, but the mod already warned us against personal attacks. I'm going to assume singersigner reads all the posts and she might point it out. You should apologize in advance.

[whilst]

Furthermore, your officiousness is grating. It's as though you are concerned more with appearing fair and agreeable than with playing the game. Providing your third-person perspective if not as helpful as you make it out to be: first, because people can already roughly imagine how their actions will be perceived by others; second, because stating your layer of perception can only help scum see and fix their errors. This runs totally contrary to your Napoleon attitude. What is the protown use?

You should calm down. How am I supposed to know how strict the mods are on this forum? It'd ruin the game if singsigner just removed you because you told DarkClaymore he sucked. She made the rules clear: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3285381

[whilst]

I don't really see why analyzing how scum will act when there's an obvious suspect is pointless. Scum should stand in front the dilemma whatever to follow everyone and end up being wrong and gain suspicion points, or rather say that they aren't sure about the lynch - what will give them some town points. I believe they tend to do the latter in most cases. Hence I believe Whilst is scum.

Right, because I'm the only one unsure about the lynch. The only people who seem "sure" of themselves are you and Abel. If anyone else is "sure", feel free to chime in.

Coming from a very similar reasoning, note how he didn't vote for neither you nor BBmolla on D1. Or rather, I'd say that he hasn't voted at all so far (unless I missed it) from the very beginning. And I believe he is the only one who hasn't (aside of the IC with whom we have obvious issues). Strange how he only points fingers at people but never starts a wagon nor hops on an existing one.

Why should I even bother voting for people who I have no evidence of being scum? To pressure them? Both Abel and BBmolla had pressure on them. I still think cavjj is scum, so I'm on a 'wagon' right now. Feel free to hop on. I wouldn't mind seeing him lynched.

All I have to say is that if I'm right and Whilst is scum - then my playstyle worked. If I'm wrong, then I'll admit I ended up playing as an idiot here and that I should change my playing style.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Just look over your own posts. None of your "arguments" against me have any substance and I've offered a proper rebuttal to everything you've said. You still haven't been able to come up with a solid point to lynch me on. I'm only trying to help: you should move on.

[whilst]

These two posts raise my eyebrows. Potentially nervous newbscum trying to keep the game together? Hmm.

Just some thinking-out-loud here:

If scum=IAI/whilst, then DC is really and truly cluelessly being lynchbait. However, if scum=IAI/DC, then whilst is being (unnecessarily, IMO) overprotective of the game and also not very aggressive.

If it's really bothering you I can give you the full story. Apparently sending PM's is against the rules. I've already asked the mod. I would've PM-ed Abel the same thing. I may not be aggressive, but I'm also not laid back. If I really think I have something 100% figured out, then I'll be aggressive about.

Why should I even bother voting for people who I have no evidence of being scum? To pressure them?

That's the point. You MUST find me suspicious. That's how lynchbait works. The idea is that NO ONE should be able to say "I don't find DC suspicious". You are the only one who is doing this atm.

Well did you ever consider that I might've thought your lynchbait ploy to be complete garbage? Because I do.

And how you can say that after putting me in second place of your top suspects? If you have nothing on me, why put me there? If anything, I turned into more and more suspicious as time passed. You should have even MORE reasons than you had back then.

You really want to see a problem with me. I followed Abel's argument with you the entire time (remember? You said I was "just pleasing everyone"). If it's any credit to Abel, I did agree with some of his points. I'm glad you pointed out that post, you felt a bit pressured, didn't you? Are you feeling more pressured now because I may have the same opinion?

All I have to say is that if I'm right and Whilst is scum - then my playstyle worked. If I'm wrong, then I'll admit I ended up playing as an idiot here and that I should change my playing style.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Just look over your own posts. None of your "arguments" against me have any substance and I've offered a proper rebuttal to everything you've said. You still haven't been able to come up with a solid point to lynch me on. I'm only trying to help: you should move on.

Well sorry that I'm not like most people who think that it's so easy to lynch scum with some "solid" and "obvious" reasons. I don't believe in that as I have never seen it happening. If ever my deduction hit scum, it was only with reasons no one found "solid".

Great. I'm sorry I don't play like you.

I really don't think "suck" is a big deal

I agree with this.

All right. You suck.

[whilst]

VOTE: I Am Innocent

All right, unvote. One of you guys unvote.

Give IAI at least the chance to respond to your inquiries. We waited for NS, we can wait for IAI too.

[whilst]

All right, if you say so. Let's just hope DC doesn't hammer.

[whilst]

If anyone is interested in lynching IAI but is too lazy to go back and read and wants me to summarize the case on him, just say so.

Also, I'm going to assume two things: 1. I'm too lazy to go back and read. 2. You'll be able to get in an explanation before IAI comes back.

Iai will not vote for himself, neither will yourself. I agree IAI needs to be given a chance. DC was given a chance and I am confident he will give IAI one. My vote also stands.

I would like your reasoning too,

cavjj

.

[whilst]

2. You'll be able to get in an explanation before IAI comes back.

Well now I look like an ass. Regardless, honor IAI's request.

[whilst]

Nobody Special

B) It's not "really bothering" me; but I think you might should tell us anyway. I, for one, would love some insight to your thinking.

What about it would you like to know? How I play? What I think of everyone here?

DarkClaymore

Well did you ever consider that I might've thought your lynchbait ploy to be complete garbage? Because I do.

That's not something that town would do. Even me, the one who is totally against loud reasons, would still find myself suspicious if I were watching from the side. You can't say you have nothing on me. Because you have by default. Maybe you don't trust these reasons but they are there and you have them.

Sure then, I think you're scummy. Happy? Seriously, you need to find someone else to argue with. You haven't persuaded the other players and you only seem to have confused yourself.

You really want to see a problem with me. I followed Abel's argument with you the entire time (remember? You said I was "just pleasing everyone"). If it's any credit to Abel, I did agree with some of his points. I'm glad you pointed out that post, you felt a bit pressured, didn't you? Are you feeling more pressured now because I may have the same opinion?

Pressured? You kidding? I even forgot that post existed and that you even suspected me at first. You just totally didn't look like you are even trying to chase me. You didn't vote nor did you attempt to attack me with arguments. You just put me there and like "Lol. Let's see what happens." . That's not protown even in the slightest.

Um, why can't I do some scumhunting of my own? And no, I wasn't kidding. But I guess you didn't feel pressured. Be careful when you throw around "that's not pro-town". We wouldn't want to end up being a hypocrite, would we?

As for calling my strategy a fail. You have no proof it failed as we don't know Whilst's alignment. Just because YOU don't want to agree with my theory doesn't mean it's ME who is wrong. And maybe I just hate norms and that's why I prefer to do unusual things. Though, I still think this strategy is better for a poor scumhunter like me. I prefer to do this than each and every time ending up being frustrated due to missing scum.

Except there are three people that know my alignment.

1.

Me

2&3.

The two mafia scum.

[whilst]

Sure then, I think you're scummy. Happy? Seriously, you need to find someone else to argue with. You haven't persuaded the other players and you only seem to have confused yourself.

I didn't confuse myself. Atm, you fit what I was searching for with the lynchbait play. If my theory failed, so be it. I'll make a new one. You know? I have more. You are implying my idea was a fail, right?
But who was the one who called my question about the hypothetical situation with lynchbait "nice"? And who, after answering it, fits atm to the very pattern he gave in the answer?
That's right. It's you. Because the lynchbait isn't Cav. It's me. I'm the one who most people suspect.

I think your username is nice. Claymore is a nice anime. Dark is a nice adjective. I am nice to my friends. I've said a lot of nice things. Please, nitpick me more. I never said cavjj was lynchbait. The only reason I could care if more people suspect you, is if they suspect you for the wrong reasons, i.e. you're a townie and you're just getting caught up in the game in the wrong way. This is why I interjected previously with Abel's argument with you. I've been giving everyone the benefit of the doubt (except cavjj really), but you just keep digging yourself in the ground. Why is it so hard to stop chasing me?

Why don't I repeatedly attack cavjj? I have nothing else on him besides his hammer lynch, but I'm not wasting my time on him. There are two mafia scum, not one. If you hit a dead end with one, you move on. I've told you to move on; I'm trying to help you.

Nothing Special, take note of this above response. It may be an answer to your question.

Um, why can't I do some scumhunting of my own? And no, I wasn't kidding. But I guess you didn't feel pressured. Be careful when you throw around "that's not pro-town". We wouldn't want to end up being a hypocrite, would we?

But you didn't even put effort. It was said and I'll say it again. You were trying to please people. But it seems like we all know that so there's no point to keep mentioning this. I personally don't buy the "Whilst always plays like this" wine. If you are known for playing like this as town, moreover you'll be playing like this as scum.

Don't use material from outside of the game. This game is separate from the rest. I have not clicked on any of your links to outside games. Why should I consider them? You could be a different player, with a different role. As could I. Go ahead, don't trust Abel. If anything, help him find who the scum is.

Again

, I am trying to help you.

From now on, I'm not going to respond to anything you say that isn't protown. I think that's a smart move for everyone.

What is protown then? Tell me please. I'd like to learn.

Attack players?

You really want to see a problem with me. I followed Abel's argument with you the entire time (remember? You said I was "just pleasing everyone"). If it's any credit to Abel, I did agree with some of his points. I'm glad you pointed out that post, you felt a bit pressured, didn't you? Are you feeling more pressured now because I may have the same opinion?

Pressured? You kidding? I even forgot that post existed and that you even suspected me at first. You just totally didn't look like you are even trying to chase me. You didn't vote nor did you attempt to attack me with arguments. You just put me there and like "Lol. Let's see what happens." .

That's not protown even in the slightest.

reference
Also, control your emotions. Abel has posted plenty to wreak havoc on your nerves, in my opinion. He wants you to slip up, and really you have been. Just look at this example above. This would be my sly remark: "Well I thought you knew what protown was? (boldface for emphasis)". Abel has been gunning for your head for a while now, perhaps I should become more pro-active (or is it aggressive) and throw a vote onto you. Besides, I know my lynch with cavjj won't go anywhere--I get it. Everyone else seems to have cleared him of suspicion save for a few "gut" instinct takes anyway. Yeah, I could try more to get him lynched, but what has he posted for me to go on? Nothing. If I were like you, I'd repeat the same thing over and over and over again, something like "he hammered, but he hammered. Oh he hammered" -- a similar tune to your "whilst likes to please people".

For any of you who read this and think "so if DC excuses whilst, whilst will think DC is innocent" -- no, that's not the case. I'm asking him to move on and be helpful in another way.

[whilst]

I cannot deal with this guy anymore. I give up. Sorry, NS. I cannot justify letting this guy survive to D3.

UNVOTE: I Am Innocent
VOTE: DarkClaymore

Yes you can. DC has one vote on him now, right? All right, no big deal. But, IAI has yet to post a reaction, right? Did you post why you were going to lynch IAI, or did I miss it?

I would like your reasoning too,

cavjj

.

I'm quoting myself here, just in case cavjj misses it.

[whilst]

Yeah yeah, take your time. We have all day.

[whilst]

DC, I will also respond to you shortly, but first:

I'm reading DC's non-lynchbait case on whilst, and while I haven't come to a conclusion about it yet:

Yeah, I'm pretty bad. Which is probably why I wasn't mafia killed during N1.

This is just awful. That's pretty much the kind of thing you lynch people for saying.

Remember what that was in response to? You said "he's going to hate me for saying this, but whilst is pretty bad", or something close to that. You made a pithy remark about me, so I gave you a shallow response.

[whilst]

Whilst

1)

Pleasing both sides

. I don't give a damn he did that in previous games. He is doing it now and it's scummy. Rather, if he were town, I'd expect him to stop. I doubt no one mentioned this to him in previous games and told him it's a bad thing to do. I really don't like the way he insists on doing it. As if he waits for a game in which he'll be scum and will be able to use this excuse in his favor.

Cry more, and really: learn to accept my play style. "If he were town, I'd expect him to stop." -- why? You repeatedly bring up the same points. If you were town, I'd expect you to move on; and hey--you did. You posted a nice section about Abel, congrats.

2)

Suspecting and Not suspecting me

. This I'd say goes beyond just pleasing. When he pleases people, he just agrees that both sides are logical or/and praises them. There are people like that and logically there's no contradiction here. It's just scummy and that's all. However, saying that you suspect someone and then saying you have nothing on that player goes beyond that. Here you have an

obvious contradiction

.

Here and here he states how he is sure I'm scum with Cav and how I'm his 2nd primary suspect. But then here he says he got nothing on me and doesn't even plan to vote me for putting pressure.

You're bringing this up because I didn't "vote" for you? Because you claimed you were playing lynchbait, but I think it was bullshit? Also, don't say you weren't feeling pressured by my "list". Putting you at number 2 seems to have done something: you won't get over why I've put you there. Why not? Will this make you flip out even more?

UNVOTE: cavjj
VOTE: DarkClaymore

3)

Outguessing

. Stop it. It's annoying, pointless and not protown. What are you trying to prove? A much more protown approach would be to ask the person why he said something and see whatever the reason he gives fits yours. You can easily get a few town reads like this.

Here you try to outguess my playing style. Here you are trying to outguess my reason for voting the IC. And finally here you try to outguess whatever I was pressured.

I personally hate the second outguess the most because you obviously lost your own chance to gain town or scum reads. You practically gave me more reasons for voting the IC because no, the reason you stated wasn't my main one. By doing that outguess, you could actually give a way out to a scum who didn't have a solid reason for his action. That's far from being protown. I'd even call it anti-town to an extend.

Should I bring back the "whats pro-town" remark you made earlier? Get over me. If I decide to outguess you, so what? I think you don't like me because of my username. There's an outguess for you. Do you hate me for that too? If I was out to get you, I would've brought up more points to get you -- not tried to 'outguess' you and...magically persuade people to vote for you?

4)

Denying your own suggestion after others use it against you

. Here you call my hypothetical question about lynchbait situation "nice". But then, when I say I suspect you because you fit THE VERY pattern YOU gave as an answer to my question, you suddenly say "DC confused himself". How can you say that when YOU admitted that how you'd play as scum yourself in this situation? You pretty much called your own answer "stupid" by saying this.[/area]

You bring this up again? I just told you about the word nice. It's an adjective, and yeah -- I did like your hypothetical question. So what? Did you ever think of this: Why would I point out that I fit the pattern, only to have people suspect me more? Does that make any sense to you? Become paranoid if you wish. And yeah, I maintain that you've confused yourself. For some reason, you just can't see that I'm not mafia. Like I said, move on. I mean, you don't have to. You could probably kill me during N2, right? Assuming you don't get lynched now. Do you feel bad that you didn't lynch me during N1? Maybe your mafia partner will avenge you and kill me during N2 anyway.

[whilst]

Remember what that was in response to? You said "he's going to hate me for saying this, but whilst is pretty bad", or something close to that. You made a pithy remark about me, so I gave you a shallow response.

I remember what it was in response to. But you used it as a reason to say "I'm alive because no mafia would have killed such a bad player." You offered this part up for no reason. Nobody was questioning why you were alive. It's scummy.

Right, and no one in the game could've guessed I was a bad player. Just take it as a "fuck you".

Preemptively: Am I tunneling? Not really. I'm equally as good with a whilst lynch.

I'm sure you will eventually, but be sure to post why first.

[whilst]

DC's case on whilst:

1) Pleasing both sides.

whilst has done this before, and it's been one of my main critiques of his play in the past. The other thing he used to do was assume a "style" of posting. One game, he was as much of a stubborn asshole as he could be. It was very anti-town. He's stopped doing that kind of thing, but he still seems to be trying to please people. Good point.

Is it a majority of people that think I am pleasing everyone? Or just Abel and DC?

[whilst]

If you were town, I'd expect you to move on; and hey--you did. You posted a nice section about Abel, congrats.

...

VOTE: DarkClaymore

???

VOTE: whilst

You didn't even read my whole post, or why I voted for him. Let DC respond, I want to see how he reacts.

Is that to get a reaction out of me? I doubt you expect anyone really to hammer me, and neither do I.

[whilst]

Seems like whilst is suddenly being extra offensive because we pointed out how placid he is.

God forbid I change my vote from cavjj. But you're just playing games. Shouldn't you welcome the aggressive behavior? I know NS will. Doesn't it fit into your "pro-town" rulebook?

I did read your whole post. It's not looking good, chum.

You did? Then explain why I put my vote on him, and then allow me to clarify if you misinterpreted it.

[whilst]

DC's case on whilst:

1) Pleasing both sides.

whilst has done this before, and it's been one of my main critiques of his play in the past. The other thing he used to do was assume a "style" of posting. One game, he was as much of a stubborn asshole as he could be. It was very anti-town. He's stopped doing that kind of thing, but he still seems to be trying to please people. Good point.

Is it a majority of people that think I am pleasing everyone? Or just Abel and DC?

I already said you were scummy for many of the same reasons as IAI is.

Well, I'm at L-1. Do your worst dicknose. If you truly believe I am more scummy than some of the other players, allow me to be lynched. If I am, move Abel up on your scum list.

[whilst]

Aggressive behavior does not fit into my protown rulebook. There needs to be logic behind it. You're responding harshly to DC's points and telling me something you said to me should be taken as a "fuck you." I'm not going to welcome aggressive behavior just because we pointed out how placid you were. You are simply trying to please us again.

You put your vote on DC "to get a response." Why you would vote for someone immediately after calling him town is beyond me. Furthermore, you said from the beginning that you're voting for him to see if he flips out. So he's going to be aware that you're doing it to get a response. But how his response will help you or help the town is also beyond me.

Well as long as you understood my point, I guess I can be happy. But do note that he didn't (or so he appeared) enjoy being put at the number 2 spot on my list. It is too bad that DC knows, but maybe he'll stop reposting the same points against me. And no, I haven't been trying to please anyone. DC appears more town to you, but not really to me. He did stop "entirely" going after me, which I welcomed.

Also, I did think you only unvoted me just to not look bad (you know, the whole bandwagon thing), but your past behavior lets me also think you really want to read IAI's response.

[whilst]

Whilst's posts

Cry more, and really: learn to accept my play style. "If he were town, I'd expect him to stop." -- why? You repeatedly bring up the same points. If you were town, I'd expect you to move on; and hey--you did. You posted a nice section about Abel, congrats.

I accepted it's your playstyle. I'm not like others here who hate accepting scummy playstyles be default.
Problem is, we all tell you "you make yourself look suspicious". You are

clearly

harming the town. I'd say that you are playing lynchbait as much as I did. So why won't you stop? If you are really town and want us to catch scum, you should stop making yourself suspicious needlessly. You are just making us go after you instead of the real scum in this case.

But no. You prefer to say "lol idiots, it's my play style. Get over it". That's NOT what a townie should do. If you were to care about the town at all, you'd try to change your ways. And no, it has nothing to do with the "general protown" idea. It's basic logic.

You're bringing this up because I didn't "vote" for you? Because you claimed you were playing lynchbait, but I think it was bullshit? Putting you at number 2 seems to have done something: you won't get over why I've put you there. Why not? Will this make you flip out even more?

You couldn't possibly know that what I was doing from the beginning because I wasn't planning to play lynchbait. It's only after seeing how little I manage to contribute is that I started playing it and to the greater extreme. Saying things like "I saw this from a mile ahead" when

I

myself couldn't is a lie.

And no, I can't get over this list because you contradicted yourself with that list.

Should I bring back the "whats pro-town" remark you made earlier? Get over me. If I decide to outguess you, so what? I think you don't like me because of my username. There's an outguess for you. Do you hate me for that too? If I was out to get you, I would've brought up more points to get you -- not tried to 'outguess' you and...magically persuade people to vote for you?

If you were suspecting me, then you should have done

something

. Let me ask you. If you didn't suspect me, why you put me on the list at all? You say you don't want to pressure me with votes, yet you apparently (according to your third outguess) tried to pressure me with a list. I don't see any logic here.

Why would I point out that I fit the pattern, only to have people suspect me more? Does that make any sense to you? Become paranoid if you wish

Sorry Abel, but I have to say it this time: WINE. You gave the answer most players would have given. Whatever or not people will suspect you because of that is unclear. Rather, I'd say they should suspect you less due to the very reason you are bringing now. They wouldn't suspect you more because you fit, they'd suspect you

less

because you willingly admitted that you fit.

For me - you fit and that's that. If you flip town, then the only reason would be the fact you couldn't let go of your regular scummy playstyle. In which case you can blame no one but yourself.

Do you feel bad that you didn't

lynch

me during

N1

?

What the-?

Let DC respond, I want to see how he reacts.

"Oh, god! You voted! I'm sure you aren't scum now "
Is that what you expect me to say? Obviously voting now, especially as you are quite cornered, will change nothing.[/area]

[/quote]

[whilst]

wrong button, hold on

[whilst]

Whilst's posts

Cry more, and really: learn to accept my play style. "If he were town, I'd expect him to stop." -- why? You repeatedly bring up the same points. If you were town, I'd expect you to move on; and hey--you did. You posted a nice section about Abel, congrats.

I accepted it's your playstyle. I'm not like others here who hate accepting scummy playstyles be default.
Problem is, we all tell you "you make yourself look suspicious". You are

clearly

harming the town. I'd say that you are playing lynchbait as much as I did. So why won't you stop? If you are really town and want us to catch scum, you should stop making yourself suspicious needlessly. You are just making us go after you instead of the real scum in this case.

But no. You prefer to say "lol idiots, it's my play style. Get over it". That's NOT what a townie should do. If you were to care about the town at all, you'd try to change your ways. And no, it has nothing to do with the "general protown" idea. It's basic logic.

Glad you accept it, perhaps now you can move on. 1. I'm not harming the town, please point out how I am in your mind. 2. No I'm not playing lynchbait. I don't know why that would help me. 3. I'm not making myself look suspicious, you are convincing yourself that I am. And it's all been pointless remarks about how you don't like how I'm pleasing everyone or how I put you high on my scum list. You have a personal problem with me. I want you to stop arguing with me, and move on.

You're bringing this up because I didn't "vote" for you? Because you claimed you were playing lynchbait, but I think it was bullshit? Putting you at number 2 seems to have done something: you won't get over why I've put you there. Why not? Will this make you flip out even more?

You couldn't possibly know that what I was doing from the beginning because I wasn't planning to play lynchbait. It's only after seeing how little I manage to contribute is that I started playing it and to the greater extreme. Saying things like "I saw this from a mile ahead" when

I

myself couldn't is a lie.

And no, I can't get over this list because you contradicted yourself with that list.

Yeah, I didn't know. But you're still arguing with me about it, so now I do know. It's a problem for you, I'm sorry. You just react to it too much, for no reason. When did I say "I saw this from a mile ahead"? Please don't put words in my mouth, it's unhealthy.

Should I bring back the "whats pro-town" remark you made earlier? Get over me. If I decide to outguess you, so what? I think you don't like me because of my username. There's an outguess for you. Do you hate me for that too? If I was out to get you, I would've brought up more points to get you -- not tried to 'outguess' you and...magically persuade people to vote for you?

If you were suspecting me, then you should have done

something

. Let me ask you. If you didn't suspect me, why you put me on the list at all? You say you don't want to pressure me with votes, yet you apparently (according to your third outguess) tried to pressure me with a list. I don't see any logic here.

What's the difference between L-3 and saying "i think these guys are scummy, here's a list" -- almost nothing. Are three people going to hammer you? No. I'm sorry you don't see the logic, but maybe you will learn to in the future.

Why would I point out that I fit the pattern, only to have people suspect me more? Does that make any sense to you? Become paranoid if you wish

Sorry Abel, but I have to say it this time: WINE. You gave the answer most players would have given. Whatever or not people will suspect you because of that is unclear. Rather, I'd say they should suspect you less due to the very reason you are bringing now. They wouldn't suspect you more because you fit, they'd suspect you

less

because you willingly admitted that you fit.

For me - you fit and that's that. If you flip town, then the only reason would be the fact you couldn't let go of your regular scummy playstyle. In which case you can blame no one but yourself.

Ok, so I gave an honest response. Should I start lying to you instead? Again, you're paranoid. I've thought out all of my posts, call WINE if you want, but I'm not trying to deceive anyone.

Do you feel bad that you didn't

lynch

me during

N1

?

What the-?

Didn't understand what I was implying? Really?

Let DC respond, I want to see how he reacts.

"Oh, god! You voted! I'm sure you aren't scum now "
Is that what you expect me to say? Obviously voting now, especially as you are quite cornered, will change nothing.[/area]

Um, no. I just expected you to become more enraged. I didn't post to clear my name in your book.

You know DarkClaymore, you're starting to please me. You have funny arguments.

[whilst]

whilst, you are just arguing with DC. If you are town, please start convincing us/me, because I'm nearly ready to see you lynched. You might be able to do this by giving an unbiased look at the game and players, giving good reasons to go after someone other than DC, and then doing so. Your posts are reactive to DC, which doesn't strike me as protown.

I'm ready to stop arguing. I've told him to move on, I just don't want him to leave his questions unanswered. I'm going to look at IAI's posts abut cavjj again and maybe start something there. Did anyone besides NS even respond to IAI?

[whilst]

Glad you accept it, perhaps now you can move on. 1. I'm not harming the town, please point out how I am in your mind. 2. No I'm not playing lynchbait. I don't know why that would help me. 3. I'm not making myself look suspicious, you are convincing yourself that I am. And it's all been pointless remarks about how you don't like how I'm pleasing everyone or how I put you high on my scum list. You have a personal problem with me. I want you to stop arguing with me, and move on.

1. I already said how. By making yourself suspicious. What part of it you didn't get?
2. But players tell you that they think your are suspicious because of the way you play. Even I stopped and I

was

playing an intended lynchbait from D2.
3. Contradicting yourself + not listening to the opinions of others when they tell you that you are misleading the town. Don't you find this suspicious? What would you find suspicious then? Nothing? Like what you said you have on me? How exactly are you planning to play when nothing is suspicious?

1. All right, I forgot you convinced yourself about me.
2. I'm glad you admit your faults. I've given them proper responses to their inquiries too. If they have a problem with me, they will bring it up. If they didn't think my response to your questions was adequate, they would've said so.
3. I've explained any and all contradictions you've brought up. You don't want to believe my explanation, OK. And no, I'm listening to everyone--and you know I am. I've been actively posting and keeping up with every discussion. I never said "nothing is suspicious". I never implied it either.

Yeah, I didn't know. But you're still arguing with me about it, so now I do know. It's a problem for you, I'm sorry. You just react to it too much, for no reason. When did I say "I saw this from a mile ahead"? Please don't put words in my mouth, it's unhealthy.

You didn't say that but your playsyle combined with your arguments do. You said you suspected me, yet you didn't do anything to catch me. When I asked why, you said "because I think you lynchbait play is BS". Thing is, when you were suspecting me at first - I WASN'T playing lynchbait yet. You are just trying to cover up for your lack of action with a reason that only could come much latter. There is a thing called timeline and you miscalculated that.

No I didn't. We're still in D2 , who knows how long this "timeline" will stretch on for. You don't think any of your actions from D1 could qualify you as scummy--that perhaps could've caused me to put you near the top of my scum list?

What's the difference between L-3 and saying "i think these guys are scummy, here's a list" -- almost nothing. Are three people going to hammer you? No. I'm sorry you don't see the logic, but maybe you will learn to in the future.

Then what was the point of putting me on the list if you say you didn't suspect me? Answer this and I'll agree that perhaps there was no big difference whatever you voted or not.

Didn't I put you on the list in the beginning of D2? Why is my list the only one you're unhappy with. You're on other people's lists too, near the top as well. You should be arguing with them too, or is my case just special?

Didn't understand what I was implying? Really?

I didn't get whatever you were talking about D1 lynch or N1 kill.

Lynch = death. N1 lynch = N1 death = N1 kill. I'm sorry I mixed up my words.

You know DarkClaymore, you're starting to please me. You have funny arguments.

And you have stupid ones. And I rarely ever insult people I don't know.

I'm sorry, I won't insult you ever again.

[whilst]

Didn't I put you on the list in the beginning of D2? Why is my list the only one you're unhappy with. You're on other people's lists too, near the top as well. You should be arguing with them too, or is my case just special?

It's is special and how you don't want to see it is just stupid. Point me at another player who put me on top and not only did nothing to argue with me and show my faults - but also latter on said he got nothing on me?

I'm not arguing because you put me on the list. But rather because you latter on said you have nothing on me. I would gladly argue with whoever did the same thing.

I did argue against you, remember? You thought I was supporting both sides when Abel was arguing with you. Was this the post that I said "I have nothing on you"? I'm reading it over again, and I don't quite get how you came to that conclusion. I said I wasn't sure about the lynch.

I can't show you anyone else that has put you at the top of your list, and then later said they have nothing on you. Everyone has more or less followed up on their suspicions. However, I can say that you suspect me, and also have nothing on me.

[whilst]

whilst, you are just arguing with DC. If you are town, please start convincing us/me, because I'm nearly ready to see you lynched. You might be able to do this by giving an unbiased look at the game and players, giving good reasons to go after someone other than DC, and then doing so. Your posts are reactive to DC, which doesn't strike me as protown.

Did anyone besides NS even respond to IAI?

Ignore this, I just went back and read. Abel responded as well, and (I believe) IAI will respond to Abel eventually. IAI did explain his BBmolla vote pretty convincingly, though. I also don't think IAI presented the strongest case against cavjj -- but I don't think anyone here can. I can't, yet?

I would like to know:

cavjj

, who do you want to see lynched at the end of this day? If I've asked this before and missed it, sorry.

As I've pointed out before, we have until the 22nd (alllll day). I would like

Nothing Special

's take on my recent argument with DC.

[whilst]

Okay, I didn't entirely skip it because I remember reading the last two paragraphs. But his case on BBmolla is entirely irrelevant now. Explaining it now does nothing to fix that he didn't give reasons to vote for BBmolla on D1 when it was relevant.

Yeah, point taken.

[whilst]

Now, having said THAT, if whilst flips town, I'll be looking again at most everyone; cavjj will be high on my list simply due to the D1 hammer. If whilst and IAI BOTH flip town, we're in trouble. I'm not going to start lining up lynches, but I do know who my top two are if whilst & IAI are both town.

What was your reasoning behind the lynch on me?

[whilst]

You thought I was supporting both sides when Abel was arguing with you. Was this the post that I said "I have nothing on you"? I'm reading it over again, and I don't quite get how you came to that conclusion. I said I wasn't sure about the lynch.

Then how am I supposed to interpret:

Why should I even bother voting for people who I have no evidence of being scum?

This doesn't look like "I have reasons for suspecting you, but I'm not sure about them". And you didn't even present any reason if I recall correctly. If anything, you only defended me and my playstyle on a few occasions.

Go back and look to what that response was to.

However, I can say that you suspect me, and also have nothing on me.

I have more than enough to convince myself. I'm willing to follow my lynchbait reads.
But people don't like them, so I'm forced to present other reasons. Abel agreed how some of them are good so you can't say that I "have nothing on you". Maybe YOU think these reasons are shallow, but I think they aren't and there are people who agree at least SOME of my arguments are legit. Saying that I have nothing on you is a blunt lie.

If you say so.

I actually think the main reason you weren't lynched yet is the fact you have a record of playing in such scummy way. Maybe you are used to the fact others let everything you do slide because of this but I'm clearly not going to do this.

I have a record of playing in such a scummy way? Did Abel say that? Why even trust him, has he linked you to any of our previous games? Why should my persona from other mafia games carry over to this one? No, I'm not used to people letting me slide.

[whilst]

I am also in Eastern time (GMT -5).

[whilst]

Not going to be available for around 24 hours guys. I know it's not quite VLA but thought you all should know.

In answer to Whilst's question about who I would like to see lynched; at the moment IAI and then whilst.

All right, I would also like your reason to see my lynch through. Since you put IAI before me, it would also be paramount to discuss why he should be lynched -- but after he responds.

[whilst]

Now, having said THAT, if whilst flips town, I'll be looking again at most everyone; cavjj will be high on my list simply due to the D1 hammer. If whilst and IAI BOTH flip town, we're in trouble. I'm not going to start lining up lynches, but I do know who my top two are if whilst & IAI are both town.

What was your reasoning behind the lynch on me?

The bulk of my case on you is here; it's less of your direct actions and more of IAI's interactions (and lack thereof) with you (if that makes sense).

All right, I've responded to those points already here in case you missed them. That said, I'd like to put this in another light for you: If IAI doesn't defend the criticisms against me (those of which are tied to him), then there must be a reason why not. You think him scummy, so I don't see why his behavior shouldn't include watching you and whomever else chopping away at my remaining lynch votes.

[whilst]

I think cavjj's actions on D1 and D2 speak for themselves.

I do not think so. We can wait, both IAI and I have asked him to post why he considers us (individually asked, mind you) on his scum list, well-- on his list of people he'd like to see lynched. Waiting for IAI paid off, so I am extremely grateful for not being hammered (thank you dicknose). We can wait again until cavjj presents his case. I believe NS also has some loose ends he needs to answer, right? Now onto the most recent discussion:

---

---

I Am Innocent

Point 2 "He sticks to what's easy" Yeah, I am one of the few people putting you under the microscope. How many posts do you have, 200 yet?

Before you bring up the 200 post count, make sure you compare quality and quantity. The number means nothing, however in Abel's case he's also posted a plethora of decent posts with (and you should agree) viable points for arguing. Dicknose's posts are much shorter than everyone elses, but he also (I think he said this) is not on the computer for his forum access. Still, his points are succinct and to the point. I continue:

As Nobody Special will tell you, the amount of posting in this game is ridiculously on the high side. For myself personally, I am on the higher end for my average as well...just trying to keep up. I have never replaced out in a game before, and do not plan to. I will usually respond to a case within 2-3 days of it happening. If that is considered "mostly absent and disengaged" than guilty as charged I guess.

The posting may be high, compared to other noob games, but consider that the caliber of the players in this game may also be high. I have thoroughly enjoyed myself in this game, and I'm sure everyone else has too -- mostly because of the discussion. Another point: A decent sized portion of the posts from this game are not just from Abel's arguments with other players. I have a similar stretch of posts with DarkClaymore.

Abel

Thank you, IAI, I have little else to add. I think my case and your responses will speak for themselves and give good grounds for others to make a decision about you one way or the other.

Having said something similar to Dark Claymore in the past, the reasoning is sound. I have read over both sides of the argument, and I personally think that IAI's rebuttal is sufficient enough to clear airs of suspicion on Abel's end. If he feels differently, well, Abel hasn't 'slowed' down in terms of pointing things out, I doubt he'll stop now.

Stuff for IAI & Abel to look at and probably not respond to, unless they want to.

Did anyone else

have anything on IAI

besides

Abel

to begin with? Abel did post his arguments after I asked him to,

IAI

, and I think you've made some good responses. There's no reason to get further worked up about the inquiries into your posts. If you still think the quantity of the posts in this game is too high, then you may or may not pursue Abel as a possible scum option -- I think it will only lead to another three pages (three is just a number, it could be 2 or 4 or 1 or 5 etc.) of sidetracked arguing. You can, of course do whatever you want-- I won't stop you, but it's just my opinion. I'm not gonna tell you to 100% "move on" like I did with DarkClaymore, because there is a small part of me that's wondering if Abel could slip up in those hypothetical three pages.

---

---

Oh man, what is that, an echo? No way. I can sense it, from the future.

I do not want

anyone bringing up that I am playing a people pleaser. I am deliberately trying to point out the faults in both of their reasonings and then offering a solution to their argument if they have any second thoughts. To come full circle in my efforts, some of you may also want to say that

I'm pleasing both of them, even though I'm saying I'm not and simply not trying to do anything else (i.e. be aggressive, scumhunt, who knows)

. Here: I know some of you may be wondering where my case was on cavjj (as I said I would re-open the case based on IAI's response), but we are still waiting on his return.

[whilst]

My initial thinking was that I expected more from IAI than from whilst in the way of defense.

Could you explain this in more detail?

Yes, but I'm pretty sure of both my reads.

Two town flips means game over. One town flip puts us in trouble.

So instead of admitting your mistake, you counter with "I'm pretty sure of both my reads"?

The part that I'm sure I said, somewhere, is that I would like a whilst flip and then will go from there. I am certainly not locked into a whilst/IAI team --

especially

if one of you flips town (which, at this point, I doubt).

All right, let's assume in a 'random' hypothetical situation, where I am killed today or tonight -- either lynched for some reason or night killed by the mafia -- and i 'flip' town. Do you assume you wouldn't be considered scum by the other players? Also, who do you chase next?

I don't see this outcome as an impossibility--all you'd need to do is persuade Abel and (perhaps) dicknose of my scumminess.

Yes, but I'm pretty sure of both my reads.

Two town flips means game over. One town flip puts us in trouble.

So instead of admitting your mistake, you counter with "I'm pretty sure of both my reads"?

Yep, there's something wrong about that. Doesn't sound like he meant flip via nightkill, either. I think it's highly unlikely whilst or IAI would be nightkilled, obviously. It's not a scumslip, though, is it?

I address this above; if you need more clarification, I'll be happy to discuss further.

Go ahead, clarify.

[whilst]

Spoiler: Mod Edit

ABEL- Part 1

Stop quoting the wiki

Says the person who first brought a wiki article. I hoped at least something from the wiki will get through you, but sadly it seems like it doesn't. So I'll just conclude that nothing will.

First of all, you're not proving anything about yourself by quoting something you didn't write.

What...? Why am I supposed to prove something about myself when I'm trying to point out something about YOU?

Second, any goddamn idiot could have written that, it's a wiki. And if the person who wrote it isn't an idiot, I reserve the right to disagree anyway

Okay, then the second link here:

Game Theory (See also: Theory in the wiki).

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED READING!

This is taken from the "Newbie Game Queue" thread. As you can see, people HIGHLY RECOMMEND to read this. And you are't going to say the ones who created the thread are also idiots, right?

This clears part one. As for part two - sure, you have the right to disagree. If you are going to ignore the advice of the more experienced folks and just play however you want - I wish you good luck. I believe you'll need it.

You should have condensed your argument into "Abel says not to use outside help, but before he said we should, here are some highlights". To be fair, I haven't read a majority of the "newbie guide" or any other 'self-help' articles. The only time I've consulted the wiki was for acronyms and for special roles in other games.

Third, anything put on a wiki about strategy in this game is immediately null and void because it becomes public knowledge and everybody knows the tricks

This wasn't "strategy" but "advice". There's a big difference between the two as the latter should always be helpful. And just a note: none of what I cited were "tricks" to catch scum, but rather things you shouldn't do as town because it's either pointless or harms the town.

Also, here you said, and I quote, "There are

clear

and

definite

ways to help the town in this game". Isn't this also part of the "public strategy" that automatically becomes null? You are confusing me. I don't understand whatever you do or don't believe in what you said there and whatever you believe in well defined known strategies or not.

Fourth, I haven't made any decisions in this game based solely on potential scumbuddies

I just said you are pushing it a lot. Like when I asked why suddenly me and Whilst are the scumteam in your eyes, you said you see "more connection". If this isn't an obvious attempt to conclude something from connections between players then I don't know what it is.

don't outguess me that I'd write you off as an idiot and ignore your opinion, you don't know that.

I just added that so you won't ask me why I didn't put any effort into explaining what is written there.
Though, based on this:

it's going to lead to is just going to provide you another outlet to propagate your

nonsense

.

I believe my "outguess" was correct anyway.

Also, DC, why are you so faithful to your beloved wiki when you're all about using the "weird" strategy?

This thread, along with others there, aren't recommended for teh lulz. I read it and I think it's legit.
True, I came up with a strategy that goes against some of the things written there. But it's a "strategy". I wasn't just playing the "normal way", if that's how you'd like to see it, and relying on normal reads. I made something different, which I initially didn't really want to try in this specific game, and tried to see whatever it's better than the "normal" playstyle which, tbh, I find boring at times because everyone do it.

When I'm playing normally then I following what's written there and in other articles as much as I can or see fit. It's not like I have OVER 9000 unusual strategies.[/area]

ABEL- Part 2

I'm not letting someone think for themselves? Show me where I've turned down a good case or good pressure on someone. Show me any evidence at all that I'm making the town follow one person. You can't say such things without examples, especially when they're so obviously lies

You strongly attacked not only my lynchbait strategy, but also IAI's scumhunting. Only because you don't like it doesn't mean you have to attack and insult. You just make yourself appear like some kind of "ALL CAPS RAGE" guy that no one want to mess around with. This automatically blocks many opinions that could have brought forth by players.

Some people will just avoid messing with you and will refrain from stating their opinions.

I'm not unaccepting of new ideas and strategies. I'll listen to anything, evaluate it, and tell you whether it's shit or not, honestly

You have no right to call my strategy "shit" when you yourself doing many things against what town should do. Yes, I'm talking about that article from wiki. If my lynchbait doesn't fit the "defined way to help town" then neither many of your own actions.

I did ask you to cite your sources first and foremost, if I recall correctly. After a while without citing, I started calling your stories nonsense.

True, you asked: #289
I did give you the links, as pointless as I thought it is: #298
Then you attack me and call what I say "nonsense" because I didn't cite: 343

There was no need to attack. You could just ask me to cite again like you did the first time. You saw that I gave you the links back then, but you still chose to attack me the second time. And I still gave you the more specific links anyway: #345

And this is all with putting aside I was referring to the same game the first and second time anyway. But you couldn't have possibly known that.

Appearing confident is an important part of adding pressure. A statement so self-assured and intuitive like "lol, looks like we have our scumteam" is going to dismantle a scumteam more than "Well, here are all the reasons my previous case doesn't work anymore. I admit its shortcomings could apply to any case I make in the future. That said, my next suspicion is that these two gentlemen are a scumteam."

I think neither put any pressure more than votes or pointing out new things. Just going around and singing how you found the scumteam puts pressure on no one. As townie I know you are wrong and if I were scum I'd know you are just guessing. You are just wasting our time by making us read pointless material.

Otherwise, what am I supposed to do? Keep talking to IAI all day and let DC just sit there silent at his computer? Nah.

What I didn't like is how you never gave a solid reason as to why me and whilst as scumteam is the winner in your eyes even though you were pretty sure it's IAI a short while ago. You just said there's more "connection" which is weak reasoning as you should know that most likely you won't find any obvious connection between the scum before you lynch one of them.

but I'm not concerned about whether or not I make you look scummy by not leaving anything for you to say

Then I could say back to you that I don't give a damn that my lynchbait play made reading players harder to YOU. Because I found it much better and I always do, even when the specific lynchbait isn't me in other situations.

Your reply just shows how much you think of mafia as a game you play as a team. You don't care about this at all. You are playing for yourself. And for someone who relies on the classic reads, what you are doing is obviously anti-town. As I said, you don't allow players to contribute and just let many good reads slip away. If you have never considered this disadvantage of this playstyle, then perhaps you should.

You're concerned about whether or not you look scummy, which is scummy

1) I'm concerned with the fact I can't contribute anything and not helping to the town
2) So basically you are telling me that as town I'm free to make myself look scummy? Tell me, who insulted my lynchbait play because it makes me suspicious and draws attention away from scum? Pretty much everyone.

Please go back through each of the seven points you made about me and explain why a townie wouldn't do those things and why scum would

I believe it's all explained in

bold

. I can restate that if you want.

Leader

- True, you can do that as town and as scum. Problem is, YOU know this can easily mislead the town and that many noobs are easy followers. You said how you witnessed this happening before and the fact you are doing something similar right now can be seen as only this: anti-town and scummy.

One Ideology

- While this depends a lot on one's personality - it doesn't change the fact this approach is anti-town. Insulting players who bring up some innovative ideas is not a protown approach. If you don't like it - so be it. But no reason to start attacking, saying you'll put me on the black list and such. The only times I saw a player getting angry is when a townie was right in what he was saying and the angry scum couldn't shake him off despite how his reasons were, supposedly, baseless.

Ignoring your own previous deductions

- The only reason I see this as a more likely anti-town behavior is because town want to find scum. What you did there accusing me and Whilst as scumteam looked like an attempt to lynch those who are in the spotlight. Of course, this approach is always easier. However, it doesn't help in lynching scum.

Playing extremely protown and jumping on every little thing

- I could put aside what I cited from the wiki and how it's said there that this can be used as scum strategy - but I won't because that's exactly what I think. True, a noob townie could still play like this. I don't see you as one. Thus letting good reads slip away while not allowing others to contribute + posting a lot which can easily scare noobs, cause them to be inactive and easy lynch targets = anti-town play = more likely scum play than town play.

Doing what is wrong and make it appear protown

- As town I would have expected you to read that wiki article once I pointed out that there are well known flaws in the way you play. You didn't do that. It seems like you have no intention of improving how you play, even if you think that article won't help you much, and that's no what a townie should do. You also keep pushing these all these "wrong" things in order to appear protown no matter what. Maybe you are fooling others but not me. You are just wasting out time with that. Sounds more scummy than protown, don't you agree?

Publicly saying someone is town

- This I agree can be done by both town and scum. However, at the time there was nothing the town would gain from you saying this. Only scum would - town points once dicknose dies and flips town. Also, as a person who said "I'll reveal what I think when I'm at L-1" I'd expect you to keep such insights to yourself unless there is a REAL need to point them out. There wasn't such thing in this case.

[/quote]

So, I'm honestly not really sure what I was being asked to edit, but since I'm not sure what he did or did not write, and I can't just edit out something someone wrote "for funsies" (not saying that's what you're doing, I'm just confused), I just put the whole thing in spoiler tags because it looks like all it is, is some sort of mistake so this is to get rid of the huge wall without compromising the content. Hope this helps!
~singer

[whilst]

Ugh, I totally messed that up. Why did I push "shift+enter"? ugh. Hold on, I'm going to ask the mod to delete the above post.

[whilst]

ABEL- Part 1

Stop quoting the wiki

Says the person who first brought a wiki article. I hoped at least something from the wiki will get through you, but sadly it seems like it doesn't. So I'll just conclude that nothing will.

First of all, you're not proving anything about yourself by quoting something you didn't write.

What...? Why am I supposed to prove something about myself when I'm trying to point out something about YOU?

Second, any goddamn idiot could have written that, it's a wiki. And if the person who wrote it isn't an idiot, I reserve the right to disagree anyway

Okay, then the second link here:

Game Theory (See also: Theory in the wiki).

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED READING!

This is taken from the "Newbie Game Queue" thread. As you can see, people HIGHLY RECOMMEND to read this. And you are't going to say the ones who created the thread are also idiots, right?

You should have condensed your argument into "Abel says not to use outside help, but before he said we should, here are some highlights". To be fair, I haven't read a majority of the "newbie guide" or any other 'self-help' articles. The only time I've consulted the wiki was for acronyms and for special roles in other games. That being said, this is a strong point that I wish to highlight:

Fourth, I haven't made any decisions in this game based solely on potential scumbuddies

I just said you are pushing it a lot. Like when I asked why suddenly me and Whilst are the scumteam in your eyes, you said you see "more connection". If this isn't an obvious attempt to conclude something from connections between players then I don't know what it is.

Really, don't associate me with DarkClaymore.[/area]

This is what I wanted to say in #580, but I ended up hitting enter or tab or some combination of buttons too early, so it posted prematurely. If the mod deletes that post, this is what it was.

[whilst]

IAI

The "vote first and give reasons later" attitude seems useless.

If you say so. But on page 4 with 6 newbies in the game, it can be very beneficial/telling.

I read that as” with 6 newbies in the game, I can get away with having to explain my votes and not get called out on it.”
---------------------------------
Post #215 (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3307492) I said that you hadn’t given your reasons for me being top of your scumpile. When there is DC who at the time is acting like a complete tool, Abel who is going massively aggressively pro town with the Inspector Clouseau approach along with a few others who are just coasting through the day, the best argument you can come up with for me is that I joined 2 bandwagons and the hammer. Yet you made no comment whatsoever of my hammer discussion, were you just happy to go along with it, knowing so someone had got rid of a VT and helped your cause as scum or did you just find it beneath you?

He did quote a post about the hammer, from 117.

--------------------------------
Post 477 http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &start=475
So in an effort to incriminate me, he lists his argument against BBmolla. 20 pages after he’s been lynched? To tag it up at the end:
“It may surprise Honest Abel and others, but D1 outside of his initial comment, I found him very townie and did not like the wagon on him. I was absent for much of that, hence I never got the chance to move my RVS vote. As soon as I saw what happened, I called the BBmolla/cavjj scumteam (Post 85).

Because you're summarizing your points against IAI, I'll let you slide on the re-print of a point that Abel made (the BBmolla argument).

IAI has gone all the game being seriously defensive and somehow getting away with it. He goes long periods of time without posting, defends himself and levels his post out with a very small acknowledgement of suspicion. There are very few cognitive projective arguments from IAI. Usually only small comments finished with “noted.” . He’s lurking, not saying enough and he’s scum.

You have not been reading the thread. He has stated why he cannot always come back to the game in his response to Abel. In terms of "long periods of time without posting" -- you are also guilty of the same act. Again, you had your own personal outside reason. You expect people to honor your reason (and naturally, we will) then you should really be open to honoring IAI's reasons.

------------------------------

VOTE: I Am Innocent

I am off for lunch, I will post my whilst stuff later today

I've devalued your top two points on IAI. Regardless, I really don't care that you've voted for him, it's just one vote. My only fear is that you will take the same approach to me and throw me to L-1. Abel is ready to see me killed, so if this is the case, I only have one request:

Before anyone is lynched by a majority vote, all voters must post "why" they are following through with their lynch target. If they want, they can "quote" previous posts. Please link to those posts, however.

-- Fair enough? I'd hope so. If not, please express why.

Actually (heh, sorry),

cavjj

, just one more thing: could we get your thoughts on DarkClaymore at this point in the game?

[whilst]

Before anyone is lynched by a majority vote, all voters must post "why" they are following through with their lynch target. If they want, they can "quote" previous posts. Please link to those posts, however.

-- Fair enough? I'd hope so. If not, please express why.

My main reason is the lynchbait play analysis. However, tbh, the longer this day goes on - the more doubts I have about it...

Putting aside the reason no one here likes. There is the stuff you do which I already mentioned: pleasing, outguessing, suspecting without giving solid reasons and not putting pressure on the ones you suspect. True, all can be something caused by your personality or simply some townie mistakes. HOWEVER. Three things:

1) You protect yourself as if nothing wrong with any of these points - which is far from being true.
2) You insist on doing it despite how people say it looks scummy.
3) I don't think there is any reason for the town, or at least for anyone who suspects you, to keep living in paranoia that you might be scum this time around despite how, apparently, you usually play like this.

Ah, I should've clarified when to post your reasons against the target. I meant if whoever was at L-3, and someone said they would go through and seal the lynch on that person, then everyone should cite their reasons. Those reasons will be the subject of debate during D3/4/5 etc.

[whilst]

The other thought I had (I woke up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat thinking these things, lol) is that the "sloppy" mafia play, as IAI calls it, could be due to the fact that a newbscum was lacking his more experienced counterpart. E.g., Wickedestjr was missing during the night phase and DC was able to call all the shots. Something like that.

Eh, I don't know. If you're mafia, you're going to want to participate during the night phase -- you get to kill someone.

[whilst]

My initial thinking was that I expected more from IAI than from whilst in the way of defense.

Could you explain this in more detail?

Because of your previous activity and tendency to not so much actually explain yourself but seemingly tell people what they wanted to hear, I figured I'd get more benefit from whatever IAI had to say (if anything) than from what you might say.

Where have I just told people what they wanted to hear? If you're referring to the accusations made by DarkClaymore and Abel of me "pleasing everyone", I have already answered them. I suggest you go back and read our argument if you still have any doubts.

[whilst]

Yes. If one of {IAI|whilst} flips town, then DC (who looks inno-newb-town to me now) will have to be looked at much more closely than I'm looking now. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being Evilest Scum, IAI is about 7.5, whilst is a solid 9, DC is about a 5.75.

I'm willing to admit that I'm starting to tunnel on the whilst/IAI thing.

I should probably give this thread a rest for the rest of today.

P-Edit: dicknose, why'd you have to go and do that?

I guess it's just hard for me to hold myself back, because I know I'm a townie -- but, if you're gunning for this strategy, it's going to get you nowhere. I also can't see your argument against me, so I'm going to ask you again: What are your reasons for my suspicion?

Also, what would you gain out of a cavjj flip?

[whilst]

I suspect you almost entirely based on IAIs actions. Go ahead, ask me a third time. I'll tell you the same damned thing.

I would gain the same from a cavjj flip as I would from any other flip: information. Said information would be used to reassess interactions, voting patterns, etc. IOW, taking the info and reanalyzing everyone.

Ha all right, I will. Point out (or you can link me to a post) IAI's posts that make me so scummy.

I'm sorry my cavjj flip question spat out such a generic response. Let me re-ask that too: What do you gain from my flip over a cavjj flip?

I know it may seem like I'm wasting your time, but I'm really not. I just want to make sure people look at this during D3 and wonder what you really meant.

[whilst]

A snippet from my post here:

Here he [IAI] buddies up to whilst. While distancing. Simultaneously. Marvelous.

Here, IAI's top two are cavjj & DC -- perhaps clearing DC and yet he

just

said he was concerned about whilst. (A few posts later, he adds in HA for a Top Three.)

Looking through whilst's iso, there's very little interaction with IAI.

One sees what one wants to see, and I'm kinda-sorta wanting to see a IAI-whilst team right now. DC, this doesn't mean you're entirely off the hook; but for the moment, I'd rather lynch someone else.

Ok, I've read this over. Am I correct in saying that you think me more scummy than everyone else just because of two of IAI's posts? I'm not trying to misconstrue your words, I would just like a yes or no, if possible. Naturally if the answer is 'no', do explain.

[whilst]

Also, I think this might be a decent time to end the day.

As much as I want to say "no, we should use as much time as possible", there's been a decent amount of talk of "flips" helping out everyone's thinking. I'm sorting out who's flip will help me most in my own mind, but I'd like to keep that to myself. I'm going to go back and revisit the IAI case myself, and see what his flip might do for me. Right, so, I guess I'm somewhat in agreement with you, but I still think we can give D2 until this weekend. Anyway, for the record: I do not believe IAI is as scummy as DarkClaymore, so I will not be participating in his lynch (at the moment). Things can change after he responds to defend himself, but again, it'd take a decent argument to persuade me from the other players that he is scummy. I guess adding in why his flip would be the most beneficial would help the argument -- but that

should not

be the main reason why we should lynch IAI.

You can repeal your vote if you want to 'guarantee' IAI's opportunity to explain himself, but yeah-- I also think that if anyone hammers w/o a reason, they'll look very suspicious. It'd pretty much guarantee a death sentence during D3.

Actually, I'd like to add a corollary to your "pre-hammer notification request". Indeed I have stated this before, regardless: All those who do vote for the to-be-lynched suspect, please post (or link to posts) arguments and reasons against the player. It doesn't have to be a massive wall of text (unless you think it's necessary to get your point across), but state your general suspicions why. It'll make clear the reasons why IAI was lynched if he turns up townie -- something that'll aid D3 discussion.

[whilst]

I really don't think you need a claim out of him to clear him of a D2 lynch. If he claims cop, then we lose him either way. The mafia will just kill him. The only way we don't is if the doctor protects him -- but who knows if he exists. Who knows if the cop exists?

It's all weird.

[whilst]

If not, I will wait on whilst and NS.

Waiting on me for...?

[whilst]

Also, it's noteworthy that whilst has been silent and is steering clear of this whole situation. Classic aversion.

If you think so, sure. I already stated I wasn't going to lynch IAI -- I don't think he's more scummy than DarkClaymore. I've been lurking the entire time. If there was something that deserved my input (as opinionated as that may be...), I would've given it.

Assuming NS comes back and votes for IAI, will you be repealing your cavjj vote and returning to IAI?

I just don't get it. If Abel was mafia and IAI was innocent, he would've just kept his vote on IAI and waited for the final lynch vote. If IAI and Abel are scum partners, then there is no way Abel would've let his partner get to L-1

and

stay there for such a long time. Thoughts on my reasoning?

[whilst]

Like, are you trying to say... that I'm not mafia?

Good thing cavjj or dicknose didn't respond to this.

But yeah, you're right -- I am more or less convinced you are a townie. Before, it could've gone both ways....My paranoia told me you were just investigating people to clog up the days. Then, you'd eventually have reasons on every player, allowing you to lynch basically anyone with the popular vote.

[whilst]

Cavjj, would you like to lynch DarkClaymore or me today?

[whilst]

I can tell you guys right now that I'm having a problem. I want to hammer cavjj, because I would be accepting of his lynch. But cavjj, don't claim. I am not ready to vote. Not to mention not everyone is awake right now, I want them to read the turn of events and comment. All this, and I still think DarkClaymore is scummier.

All this and NS's change of vote is also bothering me. Didn't he just say I was the scummiest on his list, and that IAI was second? NS, post your reasons why you think cavjj should be lynched over IAI.

[whilst]

Also, here's something interesting: when DC was nearing or in danger of a lynch, whilst said that he wouldn't vote for DC because he found cavjj more suspicious. When cavjj is at L-1, whilst says that he won't vote for cavjj because he finds DC more suspicious. It's a scummy tactic, but he can't be partners with both of them. If whilst is scum, I would be willing to bet that his partner isn't DC or cavjj.

I guess you do have me there, but I'm just hesitant. To counter your point about DC, I said cavjj was scummier because of his hammer. When DC decided to argue with me, I changed my mind. Also, at that time, cavjj was not posting enough for me to make any reads.

All this and NS's change of vote is also bothering me. Didn't he just say I was the scummiest on his list, and that IAI was second? NS, post your reasons why you think cavjj should be lynched over IAI.

NS

, could you answer this for me? Your change of vote is still bothering me.

Also, I "slept" on it (actually, I went to class). That, coupled with the fact that everyone has gotten a chance to respond (right?) to the majority vote change allows me to say this: I am 100% comfortable with ending D2 tonight (I am GMT -5. Let's say, sunset? 8pm-ish, I think).

Take this as my intent to hammer

, unless NS responds with something really scummy -- then I reserve the right (obviously) to not hammer. Another way that my 'hand' would be stayed, is if someone wanted to extend D2 discussions. I am all for it.

I realize DarkClaymore can bring the hammer if he wants, but if he does -- assume that I was also on the cavjj lynch bandwagon. You can hold me to it during D3 discussions, even if I am not alive (killed during N2).

[whilst]

Great.

I just noticed dicknose hasn't responded yet. I'll be waiting on him

and

NS then. Dicknose for his reactions/thoughts/comments and NS for the answer to my question.

[whilst]

By intent to hammer, I meant: I will lynch him. While you wait for cavjj's response, I will wait for dicknose's response. I guess NS justified himself, I can't prove anything the other way.

[whilst]

I was waiting for your comments at cavjj being at L-1 and if you didn't think we should lynch him. Also, if you wanted to have more days of discussion, I wouldn't vote for cavjj.

Abel has since repealed his vote (putting cavjj at L-2), but he might put it back.

[whilst]

Well, I suppose the onus is on Abel now. He can wait for more from dicknose if he wants. If Abel does decide to hammer, I give everyone permission to think that it was I that cast the final vote, and not Abel. I'm going to stick by my words; cavjj gets my vote:
UNVOTE: DarkClaymore
VOTE: cavjj

Oh yeah, if Abel says he will hammer -- I'd like a claim from cavjj. As much as it's going to play with my head, I want to see what cavjj says. I hope we get this right, if we don't it might be 3 vs. 2 during D3, and those odds aren't too great (though the odds of picking scum are higher).

There is nothing in cavjj's posts that make me want to forgive him for his D1 hammer. His reactions to the D1 inquiries do look like he's been coached. I still would take a DarkClaymore lynch over a cavjj lynch, but I don't think I have enough support there. I've thought about this cavjj thing enough, I'm going forward with this.

[whilst]

No you won't. You will wait until Abel responds to cavjj's responses. I want Abel to acknowledge this is happening and hear his thoughts on it.

[whilst]

I don't see why we can't wait.

[whilst]

I have a very real problem with a cop hammering as you did on Day One.

Yeah, I have the same exact thought.

Who did you investigate?

Do not tell us this.

[whilst]

UNVOTE: cavjj

This claim thing is bothering me now. I don't want cavjj dead yet. If we come to an agreement that the claim is bullshit, I'll be more than happy to lynch him.

[whilst]

cavjj, you'll have to answer why you hammered if you're the cop. It's probably the most unsettling thing right now, besides your claim itself.

Assuming you're innocent, shouldn't we be able to reason out who the mafia team is based on L-1 bandwagons?

[whilst]

"The Moderator will inform you as to that person’s guilt or innocence."

lol, I'm guessing two newbie scum here.

Wow, the way we played the cop role (in the other forum Abel and I played on) was that he knows the role of anyone he investigates.

Well, since we know cavjj is mafia -- let's just keep him alive and find the other one.

cavjj, repeal your lynch.

[whilst]

Fair enough cavjj, then

someone else, please repeal your vote?

Let me put it this way: you kill off cavjj now then you earned yourself a lot of suspicion for D3.

If we come to a "no lynch" on everyone else, then yeah let's just kill cavjj. But if we can figure out who the other mafia is then let's just kill cavjj during D3.

[whilst]

No, not a shot in the dark. I think we can reason it out. Let's look at the L-1 votes, perhaps we can start there.

This has never happened before in any mafia game I've played, and I'd like to play this to our full advantage. Let's just give it time. If we can't come to a solid conclusion, then yeah -- let's just kill cavjj and see who else was innocent (by result of the N2 kill). I am confident we can win in D3 at the latest.

[whilst]

Wow.



NS that was clutch.

[whilst]

Um, dicknose -- why did you vote for cavjj?

[whilst]

Abel, while you're at it, can you repeal your vote? I don't want DarkClaymore to hammer.

Now I'm gonna work out townies vs scum by looking at L-1 votes (please correct me if my logic is wrong):

Basically, I'm calling DarkClaymore as the second scum. IAI, Nobody Special, and Abel all kept cavjj at L-1 -- something I doubt they'd do if they were his partner. Obviously, I'm going to rule myself out, I know i'm town. I'm also going to say dicknose is town as he got cavjj to pseudo-claim (claim, and lie). So that leaves DarkClaymore. I think that all fits. Let me reinforce some people's townie-ness:

I am going to further clear IAI of suspicion because of his act of pointing out that cavjj was lying. If he is cavjj's scum partner, then he totally just threw him under the bus. But let's not get too paranoid. Additionally, I will clear Abel (again) of suspicion because of his repeal vote on IAI. He could've easily left it there.

DC could've hammered IAI, but then he would've gotten lynched during D3. Possibility?

There is one other approach, but only the best case scenario helps us win now, in D2. It's the role-claim approach. I won't bring it up because there is a smaller chance of us having a best case scenario (because of the 'two of the following' clause in this C9 setup). I can discuss it anyway, if someone can't figure it out for themselves.

Please point out the holes in my thought process. I know judging people as town is difficult, but I just want to see what we can workout.

[whilst]

Yeah, I didn't really think of it that way, but sure, let's keep Abel around.

And yeah, you're right, we have to go through the night anyway. Let's just play it out though, let's see what everyone has to say about cavjj's admittance. My point is just that, if we can be 100% sure of another person to be scum, then we can rest in peace that the game will end in D3. We can lynch the scumpartner today, and cavjj during D3. Best case scenario, right?

[whilst]

Anyone else hesitating about lynching dicknose, just talk to me, I'll convince ya.

Go ahead, convince me. He said he was going to hammer cavjj. Why force his mafia partner to lie?

[whilst]

Also, two notes:
1)

Whilst asked Cav to NOT reveal who he investigated. While may appear protown, it could also mean he is scum who doesn't want others to know who is the jailer

. The point of asking for a cop claim was, for the most part, to give information to the town in case the lynched player really flips cop.
2)

Whilst was pushing Cav's lynch the whole day and then hesitated hammering him. Could be a distraction.

To devalue these points:
1. If we revealed who he investigated, and he revealed a power role (so I thought cops could investigate and receive notification, that's how we played on the other forum -- Abel will agree), that power role would die that night, and cavjj the next. Also, what if we all called BS on cavjj, lynched him, and then the mafia killed the power role during N2? It'd be pretty horrible for the town. That was my thinking then.
2. Not the

whole

day. Heh. But I still said I was going to do it and I ended up casting my lynch for him too. I also ended up repealing it from the lynch, yeah, but that also turned out to be a good thing -- cavjj couldn't hammer himself.

[whilst]

What do you guys think, should we ask a potential jailkeeper to tell us who he jailed?

Not really. There's also the possibility that it was the doc who came through. The jailer could've jailed the victim too.

[whilst]

Also, I highly doubt the mafia purposely refrained from killing anyone. It just wouldn't work in their favor:
1. They still have to deal with 5 townies, not 4.
2. They have to get a majority of 4, not 3 to bandwagon lynch.

[whilst]

Ha.

[whilst]

Before you post anything else, NS, explain why you jailed Abel.

[whilst]

I'm having some trouble believing NS.

Because you've already revealed yourself, who did you jail during N1?

[whilst]

so who didn't want a shorter night?

I give up, who do you think? And why?

Isn't it just the people with night actions who control how long the night is?

[whilst]

Oh well, my bad.

I'm still waiting on NS's case against Abel. I'm trying to work out NS's claim in my head, if there's a way to disprove it. The only thing I can think of (at the moment) is a counter-claim, or two power role claims. In the latter case we'd have even a bigger problem.

[whilst]

A single mislynch at this point means a D4 in which you and whilst are both alive, meaning it will be a 50/50 shot that mafia wins. Even if you are town, you should be able to see that leaving one of you alive severely lessens the chance of a town win. One of you is town and just playing poorly. One of you needs to admit that and lynch the other or die for the cause.

Does this mean that you've cleared the rest of the town of suspicion? You wanted to lynch both of us "pretty badly" during D2 and I feel that your current behavior is an extension of that. I'm going to assume you'll come around and help us frame the next scum, just like you did with cavjj.

We'll just have to wait for NS's responses.

[whilst]

Here's a way to win (

assuming NS is really the jailkeeper

and

assuming IAI is townie

):

D3.

Lynch me, NS jails Abel (5 players remaining)

D4.

Lynch DC, NS jails Abel (4 players remaining)

D5.

Lynch dicknose, NS jails Abel (3 players remaining)

If the mafia is

not

Abel, he will have killed someone on N5, to win the game. That would only include: NS and IAI. IAI pointed out cavjj's mistake -- I really don't think he's mafia. Remember, I'm assuming NS is the JK, so he is also town.

If the mafia is me, DC, or dicknose -- well, the town wins.

The only way this plan fails is if NS is mafia, or if the pattern is broken. For example, if Abel is jailed during N3, but NS also dies during N3 -- then Abel is cleared of suspicion, as well as NS. You are then down to 4 players, with Abel and IAI there to root out that last scum. In that scenario, I am confident they can pull it off. This assumes the mafia kill NS (because he's the JK) during N3 and not anyone else.

By the way, I don't mind being lynched first (D3), and for the win, I don't think dicknose or DC will care either in what order they are lynched in (for D4 and D5). You can rearrange those lynches in any way you want. If there are any holes in the reasoning, point them out. I read it over a few times (it might take 2 or 3 reads to understand), and I'm all for pursuing this strategy or a better one if someone proposes it.

Abel

, you'd like to lynch me and/or DC, correct? You get both your wishes from this scenario. Of course, I'd still like your case against me (based off of cavjj's ISO, or whatever else you want to use).

[whilst]

Your scenario assumes that we get three lynches and that there will be a D5, which I don't understand. What's stopping mafia from killing IAI, you, dicknose, or DC on N3 or N4?

D3 = today. 1 lynch. D4 = tomorrow. 1 lynch. D5 = the day after tomorrow. 1 lynch. 6 players - 1 - 1 - 1 = 3 players.

I think I have that right...

I already said, it doesn't work if the pattern is broken -- even in that case, you're innocent. Remember, this assumes NS is jailing you, preventing you from making any night actions (i.e. mafia kill). I'm saying, no one will be killed at night, because you are most likely mafia if NS is JK.

whilst, I do not like the phrase "If I am mafia." cavjj said the same thing. You should not be saying this about yourself, it makes no sense.

ok? I'm just adding weight to my proposition. I know I'm not mafia -- but it'd look really terrible of me, if I made myself outlast everyone else: there would be no reason to try my strategy. Also, I already said you could rearrange me, dicknose, and DC.

I'm open to other strategies, and just abandoning the idea completely. It's just something that would work and end in a town win, if the 'assumptions' are correct.

[whilst]

DC two things:

1. I don't get why you believe NS so easily and not IAI (like me). IAI ousted cavjj by pointing out the flaw in cavjj's claim. If IAI were cavjj's partner, he would've kept his mouth shut at all costs.
   
   
2. In my scenario, do you care if you are lynched on D3, D4, or D5?

[whilst]

Rather than jailing Abel continually until the end of the game, why don't we .... oh, I DON'T KNOW .... lynch him today

My method gives the benefit of the doubt to Abel (cycling through me, DC, and dicknose).

Let's say we lynch Abel, and he's innocent. Who do you jail next? Assuming there is no N3 kill, then yeah -- we've found our scum. Otherwise, you'll be held in high suspicion during D4, even though (i'll continue explaining after this quote, just realized DC's point)...

whilst, dude, the mafia gets to kill people at night. How are you forgetting this? They most likely tried to kill me last night and were blocked. There was no reason for the mafia to not kill anyone unless NS is mafia and did it to claim JK, which I doubt. There's no reason to think they will allow three successive lynches by not killing at night.

(continued) I doubt NS is mafia, he was under no serious suspicion during N2 (and N1, i guess), why claim JK for no reason? Hard mafia strategy, especially since IAI and I both went to L-1 during D2. Because of that, I'm more willing to believe you are mafia and that NS got lucky with this jail.

Ok, wow, so now I see DC's point on trusting NS. I like my idea even more.

[whilst]

I don't think much has changed in my reads. I tried reading the thread with my top suspects as either Abel or Nobody, but there's a few logical problems with seeing them as scum based only on NS's claim. The most I can say is that Abel looks a lot scummier for leading a wagon on Cav and then leading the wagon away once cav neared a lynch.

You're forgetting that he did the same thing with IAI -- which is why my 'idea/plan' gives him the benefit of the doubt.

NS

, I still need a response from you. Who will you be jailing tonight, if we lynch Abel today?

[whilst]

Dicknose

, in my plan, does it matter to you what order you, me, or DC end up getting lynched in?

[whilst]

I haven't reached where switches wagons in my reread. Circumstances may have been different.

I'd like Darky to go first.

Um, all right. What if I go first, and you go second? Does it matter if DC goes third?

Rest of the town:

Also, we'll have to consider something else: If we ask a claim from Abel (if we put him at L-1), and he claims doc/cop, then we might want to consider asking someone else to come forth with their own claim (if the power role exists). In that scenario, we'd have three power role claims, and obviously one scum in the mix (Abel, NS, third claim).

[whilst]

I'm tired of wrapping my mind around your various ineffectual plans. whilst, you quoted my question about how you're missing the fact that mafia still get to kill at night and how it makes your plan useless, but you started talking about something completely unrelated. Just give it up.

You missed the point. If NS blocks you, then there is no mafia night kill.

[whilst]

I haven't reached where switches wagons in my reread. Circumstances may have been different.

I'd like Darky to go first.

Um, all right. What if I go first, and you go second? Does it matter if DC goes third?

Rest of the town:

Also, we'll have to consider something else: If we ask a claim from Abel (if we put him at L-1), and he claims doc/cop, then we might want to consider asking someone else to come forth with their own claim (if the power role exists). In that scenario, we'd have three power role claims, and obviously one scum in the mix (Abel, NS, third claim).

You seem to be assuming that Abel is town. Why?

Because of his D2 "discussion" creating actions, and his repealed vote on IAI. I feel as if IAI would have eventually been lynched.

Now, can you tell me who you'll be jailing tonight?

Everybody, who would you have nightkilled last night?

Basing it off of the "flips" conversation, I would've picked one of the targets that NS and Abel highlighted. Abel has been 'leading' discussions, so I would assume that he'd do the same thing during D3 and lynch the wrong person. For an example (reference), I would've lynched IAI. Then NS and Abel would've probably gone after DC. A successful night kill would've brought the population to 5, making 3 the majority vote. NS + Abel, would've made it L-1 on DC -- in time, he'd be lynched.

[whilst]

I could detail my thoughts on the cavjj/DC connection as well, but I'm pooped for tonight. If anyone wants to hear more, let me know.

Yeah, do that when you get the chance.

[whilst]

How was I supposed to know if cavjj was the cop or not? If he was the cop, (and we were playing by the other rules we played with on the other forum) and the person he investigated turned out to be a doctor/jailkeeper -- that'd put them in danger during that night. Yeah, in hindsight I wish he had told us who he investigated, because it might've helped us out determine who was scum, and who wasn't -- my bad.

If you guys want to lynch me, go ahead. It takes 4; I assume Abel and NS make 2. I'll throw on a 3rd vote if you really need the help; then you just need to persuade someone else that I'm scummier than whoever is second-most-scummy. From there, just go through with my plan. NS, just make sure you block Abel during the night. I guess lynching myself (and knowing I'm innocent), doesn't really help the town find the scum directly (i.e. me, lynching the possible scum), but it does help clear some "flips" some of you may have in your mind. It's quite a bit to think about. I'm still trying to think of another strategy that guarantees us a victory by default.

It'd be interesting to see if someone else claims a power role -- but I guess that'd be something you wouldn't want to reveal like NS did, during D3. If NS is mafia, then he'll just kill the power role. If there was another (real) JK, then he would've said something by now. If there is a doctor claim

AND

a cop claim though (i've said this before), then someone is in trouble. I don't think DC has a pro-town power role (90% certain), and I'm 65% (estimate) sure dicknose doesn't either. IAI, might, but that's just 'feel'.

Speaking of IAI, I'd like to hear his strategy for moving forward.

[whilst]

Special request: whilst, if you are town, please do not vote for yourself. Let's save seats on the wagon for scum, shall we?

Sure, I'll

maybe

add the fourth then if the game isn't moving. I'm still debating in my head if we should give D3 as much time as possible. It worked for D2, so maybe it'll work again. Anyway, my + another person's flip (if the mafia get a night kill, but they shouldn't if NS is right) should clarify things. I think a lot of us here were banking on a night kill during N2 to help us out, so naturally the same thing applies to N3.

HE DIDN'T INVESTIGATE ANYONE. ARE YOU EVEN READING THIS GAME?

unvote

Vote: whilst

I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic. If not: Obviously I know cavjj didn't investigate anyone -- he wasn't the cop. We just lynched him for being mafia. Also, don't accuse me (even if it's sarcastic) of not "reading this game".

In response to this claiming business:

If someone claims cop, if there is a doctor ALSO CLAIM. Then we know for sure one of the scum is in that group of three people. (The thread just freshed) I was thinking of the implications of doing a mass claim and I just erased a few sentences of what I typed. Maybe we shouldn't discuss "N3" possibilities (i.e.

what if NS does this, and doesn't do this

;

if there is a doctor what should he do

) -- it could help the scum reason out who to kill.

[whilst]

3) A doctor should 100% not come forward unless a cop has also claimed, thus confirming 3 town and putting the last scum in {NS, cop claim, doc claim}. I would also hope the doctor would protect NS tonight if no cop claim happens.

IAI just said this. I guess I didn't add anything then, in my above post.

So the claim order would be (incomplete, of course, because I'm not accounting for everyone's votes):

3 DC
4 whilst
6 IAI
7 dicknose
9 HA

Does that seem like something we might like to do to make a definitive list?

Claim order should only matter to the scum, it helps their strategy of 'what to claim or not claim' when the time comes. If we base it off of everyone's scum list, sure. If we base it off of your aggregated list (the one I quoted), then no -- I have a problem with you going last. I don't have a problem going first or second, however.

[whilst]

In trying to think of another "win" strategy, something else crossed my mind (though it's unlikely that it could be true). This is a potential scenario where his JK claim could be bullshit:

Cavjj was the mafia goon, which means his partner was the rolecop. The rolecop has had two opportunities to take action: N1 and N2. If NS had two successful PR investigations (by luck), he would then know if there was a cop and if there was a doctor. Assuming he got both of those spot on, he would then know that there's no chance of being a JK, thus his claim allows him to move freely as psuedo-JK.

It's quite possible then (in this scenario), that the doctor saved the right person during N2. Heh, it also means that our cop knows two innocent townies. It also means, that NS could've found out who the cop was on N1 and tried to have him lynched on D2 (something to look into?). Finally, it also means that the doctor protected the cop during N2, because NS would've nightkilled the cop.

I don't know, its a bit heavy to think about. It implies that NS lynched his own scumpartner -- which is really what derails this scenario.

lot's of "it also means"...

[whilst]

I'm actually going to
UNVOTE: whilst
because I want to interrogate him about some of the things he said during the cavjj claim before I commit to a lynch. It bothers me that he hasn't really said anything in defense of himself about that episode and I want to force him to talk.

I will be asking questions by the end of the day today. whilst, feel free to start explaining yourself in the meantime if you want.

What am I explaining? When you bring up an argument against me, I'll be sure to counter. You didn't have to unvote me, I doubt anyone is going to hammer -- they'll look like crap tomorrow.

If I do get lynched (after deliberation), I have two requests before I am officially lynched:

1.

Everyone explains why they are lynching me.

2.

I get to say what I would do if I were still alive during D4.

Obviously I would have to do this at L-1 + a guarantee of the 4th lynch. Also, once I'm gone, you guys should follow my plan.

[whilst]

Man, I was really hoping someone cooler than DC was going to hammer me. I get no respect. I'll respond to his "reasons" against me in a sec.

Don't hammer me yet, allow the other players to come up with their own reasons for lynching me.

[whilst]

What else, oh yeah:

Abel

, I still expect your massive wall of text that links me to cavjj. I really wanted the interview.

NS

, you really don't have any reasons against me, do you? The only things I can remember are what IAI posted. He's pretty much town -- I'm not sure what light you're reading those posts in now.

dicknose

, I'm not sure where you stand, but be sure to throw in your reasons too.

None of you have any reason to jump the gun on this. We have all the time in the world, so honor my requests. You don't have to unlynch me -- but if you're really OK with finishing today off, sure. My flip will help you guys, and if someone dies tonight (somehow) -- then that flip will help too. Hmm, in that case --

all of you

: Also include what your next goal will be after I am declared innocent in my grave.

[whilst]

Thanks for honoring me! Allow me to respond.

I'd say your overall playstyle is quite scummy in my eyes. It might be just that you are indecisive or too careful, but the problem is that I have no way to know for sure - unless you flip. You seem to avoid taking stances a lot and I think the only thing you have ever appeared rather "sure" about is Cav's wagon which you pushed the whole D2. But even this you dropped when he was at L-1 and said you're no longer sure and think I'm scummier.

Your first two sentences here -- I could say the same about you; you're not making a solid argument there. Your argument about me dropping out at L-1 has already been addressed: I wanted to hear him out. Also, (if you don't remember, go back and read) I wanted to root out the other scum partner and not risk a townie death during N2. I still don't know why you hammered that night.

There's also your passive reaction to my lynchbait play and your outguessing. Again, it can all be your personality and own way of playing, but I can't possibly know that before you flip. And I'm not going to check your meta as you should aim to play the same as scum and it'll teach me nothing.

Ok...and? What makes my reaction passive? If this is a reason, then you need to rethink why you're lynching me.

True, I could also point out some things in your favor as well. Like in the end forcing Cav to claim by putting him at L-1. Abel on the other hand clearly didn't want him to claim.

In the end it all comes down to this: You're one of my two suspects. Since apparently Abel's lynch won't work today, you're all that's left for me atm.

I guess the "top two" thing is a fair argument, but: We do have more time to play out the day -- but maybe Abel was right. Perhaps the scum purposely didn't lynch anyone to make us all impatient. So it would seem...

K, next? I'll be awaiting your responses

dicknose

,

NS

, and

Abel

.

Also, the claim that DC wants -- I'll do it after I get the rest of the responses in.

[whilst]

No, post your reasons against me first. Then allow me to respond.

If you don't have anything against me, at least say so.

[whilst]

I'll take that as a "no". I was really looking forward to the questions. Your points that you previously posted have no substance at all (which is why they've been ignored by everyone). They aren't incriminating in the slightest.

I'll claim once I get a response from dicknose and NS. I'm not delaying anything, have some patience, Honest Abel.

[whilst]

Go ahead and show us all why my points have no substance. It's on you to defend yourself.

Sure thing. First things first, I'm not responsible for how another player reacts to me. I'm sorry he was mean to you and nice to me. Let's see how poor this argument really is:

Here's what makes me think whilst is scum based on cavjj's iso:

Case on whilst via cavjj

cavjj treats everyone aggressively except whilst.

"Aggressively" is a strong word, but it encompasses a couple other things: suspicion, ridicule. cavjj treated most people in the game this way except for whilst. For example:

• #135, #275, and #392 in which he ridicules DarkClaymore (actually, he treats DC this way the whole game, kind of peculiar)
  
• #145, in which he's aggressive toward dicknose
  
• #196 and #578, in which he defends himself by throwing suspicion at IAI
• #386, in which he throws suspicion on NS for being too protown
• #709, in which he throws suspicion on me and dicknose for wanting to lynch IAI quickly

Let's do this by bullets. First bullet, DarkClaymore -- he's aggressive towards him, and? So am I and so are you. Second bullet, did you even read dicknose's comment? He's being a bit of an ass and so is cavjj. Again, so I didn't show any overt emotion to cavjj, what's the point? I've shown some towards you, I don't see much of a pattern here. Third bullet, you pulled #587 out of your ass -- yeah, cavjj's vote was pretty horrible, and IAI counters it in 626. 4th and 5th bullets, ok? what's your point here? So he's trying to blend in as town.

In the end your point is that he's played a poor townie in reaction to other people's posts, but not mine, correct?

Compare this to how he treats whilst throughout the game. He momentarily says he's suspicious of whilst but not once does he say why and not once is whilst at the top of his list. The rest of his interaction with whilst is cordial and cooperative. For example:

• #109, in which he responds to whilst's very friendly, understanding #102 and #103, offering an apology and a calm response/discussion with him
• #181, in which he volunteers a cordial response/explanation
• #374, in which he cordially defends himself and is "more than happy to oblige" whilst's questions

This is also a joke, right? You're not really considering these points -- you're trying to get a reaction, I hope? I don't know how you see #374 as cordial, but I didn't. Again, he was just nicer to me. If you really think this is something to lynch me on, then you have a problem thinking straight.

cavjj suspects whilst, but doesn't ever want to lynch him.

He brings up a suspicion of whilst out of nowhere with no reason, and never lists him as his #1 suspect. This is that old "my buddy's scummy, but this guy is scummier" scumtell.

• #386, in which he suddenly brings up that his top two suspects are DC and whilst without giving any reason or words at all as to why whilst is scummy
• #424, in which he again references a suspicion of whilst but sets aside DC and puts IAI as his #1, again with no reason for suspecting whilst
• #537 and #584, in which he says he wants to lynch IAI before whilst, and even says that he "will not be voting for [whilst] D2." He "is more concerned with IAI."
• #574, in which, after a long wall on IAI, he says he will post his "whilst stuff later today," but of course it never happens

[/area]

Didn't he put suspicion on NS, you, and dicknose? When did he rank the lot of you at number 1? Your argument is extremely flat, and is nothing but a handful of coincidences -- at best. Next (#574), so he was a poor scum, and didn't do his HW on me -- what of it?

So all that, combined with the fact that whilst's big, unending suspicion on cavjj with no excuse other than "his reasoning was a little off" strikes me as quite a strange relationship, especially when you consider that whilst is the only one who actually detailed cavjj's reasoning and sympathized with it in #103.

Hardly any sympathy, I just wanted his response to be clarified, so I posted how I interpreted it. Weren't you the one who initially wrote off cavjj's hammer as a noob mistake? No sympathy there, I'm sure.

All that said, I get a lot of strange resonance between cavjj and DC as well. Such as the fact that cavjj spent all of his interaction with DC simply ridiculing him (he doesn't really ridicule anyone else like he does DC, and he doesn't really cast suspicion on DC, either, when he does it), and then DC just suddenly disappears off of his radar when IAI takes his place in the #1 slot.

All that said, and it turned out to be a mouth full of horseshit.

DC requested a claim. If you don't do it, the fault lies with you if we end up lynching a doctor or cop. Once you claim, the liability is returned to us. DC would be mostly justified in hammering at any time now that you've declined a claim.

Calm down,

bro

. DC is a nice guy and isn't going to hammer me before everyone posts their reactions. He wants to win, doesn't he? By allowing NS and dicknose to post proper arguments against me, he'll allow for more useful information to sort through in the next days. I haven't denied the request. I will claim when everyone posts their reason for lynching me, don't worry. You don't think it's fair or

pro-town

(perhaps?) to have reasons to lynch someone? Also, if you're so worried about his hammer, then take off your vote -- no more worries then.

[whilst]

Oh yeah, you also didn't say what you would do once I flipped town. I'd like to know what your strategy is. I want to help.

[whilst]

NS, I'm using this post of yours for reference. I feel as if your argument implies that IAI and I are both a scum team together -- but that's impossible. Your reasoning doesn't make sense to me.

All right, well most of you have responded. I'll wait on dicknose's reasons (or lack thereof) and claim. Unfortunately, DC and NS, I don't think I could lynch Abel today, his previous day actions (as i've stated before) and the fact that we don't now if NS is truly town don't allow me to make him number 1...but he is certainly my number 2. If NS blocks him tonight, there should not be a kill. In any case, the mafia would be retarded not to lynch someone else (i.e. NS) if it's not Abel.

Anyway, I'm gonna throw this together for my own understand. My flip helps: NS, on IAI. Abel, on DC. DC, on (I don't know). Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

So my

number one

at this point is DarkClaymore. Even him, however, I'm unsure about. It sucks, I have reasons for and against everyone, so I feel kinda terrible about being unable to make a decisive action atm. I have nothing else to add at this point, so I'll just be waiting for dicknose.

[whilst]

Did NS ever respond to my arguments against? Or to Abel's questions?

I am for the

Copclaim

-- because then, if we have a doctor, he can step in and say "now we have three power roles" and we've successfully narrowed the scum list to three.

[whilst]

But there are cons to this: If NS isn't the JK, then he's going to kill the cop either way. He'll just say "I thought Abel was mafia, so I blocked him". If NS is the jailkeeper, and Abel is innocent (as they both claim), then the cop will die anyway at night -- if NS jails Abel. If NS jails the cop, then NS might die, and then the cop gets no night action.

[whilst]

And what more reason do we have to trust the cop than we do NS? I'm second guessing myself; I'm against.

No copclaim.

[whilst]

Tell him to make a second account and then contact singer.

[whilst]

Well, we have plenty of time. We can wait until he or his replacement form a case against me, or, admit he has no reason.

Also, NS never responded to anything I said against his reasoning against me nor to the questions you asked. I'm waiting for that response too.

[whilst]

(is dicknose still playing, or is xeras?)

I think his refusal to claim is at best anti-town; at worst, scummy. I'm rather blinded by my OMGSCUM view of you, sorry; I'm tunneling and I'm finally realizing it.

Let's go for whilst. He's had every opportunity to claim, and he just won't.

Maybe he's newbscum who can't think up an adequate fakeclaim.

Vote: whilst

That's probably L-1 again.

@Mod: Votecount, please?

Hi, I'm NS and I don't read the thread. You have yet to post your reasons against me, whether I'm at L-1 or not.

Ever since you guys shot down (mostly Abel) my strategy, it's great to see everyone else discussing "potential" night actions with abandon. If you stand back and look at this day, NS's claim has only made things more complicated. ANYWAY, I reaffirm asking a cop/doctor to claim is going to play with our heads even more. But yeah, I'll claim once I'm L-1 and people post their reasons against me.

On the other hand, clearing, say, DC would be monumental, if he is indeed town, because I think more people would be able to see the game in a completely new light. I would be almost dumbfounded if whilst and DC both turned out to be town and would put all of my energy into one of the remaining three.

Let's say we lynch me today. What does it do for you? Actually let's open this up:

Lynch me, I die; I flip town. NS is jailkeeper, he jails Abel. Night -- If no one dies, then tomorrow lynch DC. Again, NS jails Abel.

I would say lynch dicknose here, but don't. It'd be 3 v 1 at that point, and I'd be curious about NS's true alignment. In that case here's the bigger question, assuming DC and I both flip town, what does it mean?

[whilst]

DC, NS called cavjj "pretty town" twice, #363 and #538, and defended cavjj in #607 and #609, first by saying that we'd gain the same thing from a cavjj flip as anyone else's flip, and then saying that a cavjj flip would lead nowhere. I would lynch NS if not for his jailkeeper claim. Which is sad, because he's made himself unlynchable by claiming since there's no way to prove him wrong, unless he happens to jail a cop who still gets his result.

Makes sense, but who suspected NS going into N2? He didn't need to claim jailkeeper unless he had a specific point to prove.

[whilst]

I've gone over it plenty of times in my head, there's no reason why the mafia wouldn't kill someone at night during N2. No reasonable player would NOT kill, given that his partner just got killed. Either Abel is innocent or he's mafia. Let's bank on Abel being innocent, shall we?

I think the best thing to do, is to go no lynch

AND

for NS

not

to jailkeep Abel. If we want to keep the maximum number of townies alive, that's the best approach. If you don't want to (majority tomorrow is 3 no matter what), then let's just scumhunt some more and see what we get to help. Anyway,

Here's all the shit we could talk about, but will end up being pointless:

stuff

We don't know if NS is really the JK, so:

1.

If Abel dies
-a. NS is mafia ~ NS killed Abel
-b. NS is JK ~ the mafia killed Abel

2.

If no one dies
-a. NS is mafia ~ refused to night kill
-b. NS Jailkept the right person, he reveals who he jailed (why wouldn't he?)
-c. NS jailkept the right victim, he reveals who.
-c. we have a doctor ~ doctor saves the right person (in this case, should the doctor claim and tell us who he saved?)

3.

If NS dies
-a. Abel is mafia ~ Abel kills NS
-b. Abel is not mafia ~ Abel had nothing to do with it.

4.

If someone else dies, we have one confirmed townie.
-a. NS is mafia ~ NS killed the townie
-b. Abel is mafia ~ Abel killed the townie
-c. We have another mafia person ~ yeah.

My point is, a lot is still in the air, even tomorrow. We need to combine the results with a lot of back-catalog reading. We could give it a try, the worst thing that comes out of it is that we lose NS or a doctor (by mafia luck). The best case scenario is that everyone is still alive (assuming the game doesn't magically end) and the cop (if he exists) has found the scum. In any case, if NS is alive tomorrow, he should tell us who he jailkept -- that much is certain. In fact, that information is extremely valuable if NS really is the JK and not mafia -- so valuable that it's another reason for the mafia to kill him at night.

And one more thing.

It's been two nights. The mafia rolecop has had

two chances

to investigate a townie and see what role they are. There are five townies here. He didn't investigate scumhunter, bbmolla, nor cavjj, obviously (town lynch, N1 kill, partner). This part has it's own implications -- but it also means the rolecop gets another investigation tonight. That's 3 investigations into a group of 5. The chances of hitting at least 1 PR are: N1, 20%; N2, 25%; N3; 33.33333%.

[the following is hypothetical]

It is possible Abel was role-cop investigated during N1, and N2 attempt killed during N2. That would mean NS's jailkeep on Abel was luck. If this were true, then the mafia might've also been gunning for Abel's head during D2 -- was anyone?

To summarize my main points:

1. I wouldn't mind no lynching.
2. NS, tell us who you jailkeep during N3, on D4.
3. The scum gets another rolecop investigation tonight.

[whilst]

Well I'm going to assume NS isn't going to backup his reasons, and I'll assume dicknose won't give reasons for my lynch either.

Here's my amazing claim: vanilla townie.

No DC, I wasn't stealing your idea. The concept of "no lynch" has always existed. There are plenty of times when someone has reposted a point of what I said. We're working as a town team anyway, I don't see why it matters. Besides, aren't you happy I support your idea?

Well, lynch me if you want. If my flip helps you, great. Good luck, I hope we win.

[whilst]

NS, do you mind telling us why I should be lynched? You've failed to answer the question almost five times now.

[whilst]

To summarize my main points:[/u]
1. I wouldn't mind no lynching.
2. NS, tell us who you jailkeep during N3, on D4.
3. The scum gets another rolecop investigation tonight.

... I really don't see how this is protown....

You don't? And, why not?

Maybe you misunderstood why I summarized. I typed a lot, so I didn't want my message to be distorted.

[whilst]

Iai, just because he isn't all that active.

This is a really shitty reason. He has already posted why he isn't as active as the next player. He also pointed out cavjj's mistake and confirmed him for mafia. Your top two suck.

[whilst]

Is it only me or Whilst always "comes up" with what I said/suggested ages ago?
I already suggested No Lynch around the beginning of this day (shortly after NS's claim IIRC).

Is it only me or Abel always "comes up" with what I said/suggested ages ago? I already said shitty.

shitty

shitty

Man, Abel must not be reading the thread.

[whilst]

Judging from the initial reactions (if you can even call them that), my claim meant nothing to anyone. Glad you guys cared so much. If anyone benefited from my claim, it was only the mafia -- now they won't kill me tonight.

Whilst, NS, and IAI.

What are your opinions on Honest Abel?

I think he's town. As I've said about three or four times now: 1. He moved the focus from IAI to cavjj during D2, which ended up causing cavjj to misclaim and make a mistake. Also, IAI was at L-1 for a while, he could've just let him die. 2. He's started more discussions than everyone else here combined. 3. He could have easily been targeted during N2, and NS simply saved his life.

Xeras, respond to IAI's post.

[whilst]

What were you expecting?

A few more "scenarios" to be worked out, where I wasn't going to be considered scum.

NS

, why is it that you don't answer any questions? Why am I even asking this, you're not going to acknowledge it.

I am pretty solidly convinced he's our last scum. He's very active, he's picking at everything, and -- it's really just a gut thing, but I just think it's him.

I'm would really like to lynch him. Can we make that happen? I was at one point unsure that we could do it. I'd like to make it so.

Just jail him tonight.

[whilst]

What the fuck.

[whilst]

NS why the hell did you just do that?

You don't respond to anything anyone asks of you, what the fuck is your problem? You claim JK, then you hammer Abel for no reason other than

"yeah, seems scummy - I'm worthless"

, after ignoring everyone's questions. By the same reasoning you gave against Abel, you should also be modkilled.

[whilst]

Xeras, Abel claimed town, why didn't you unvote him? You ruled me out as scum because I claimed town.

Am I special? Or is

nobody special

...

[whilst]

There's also this:

If Xeras is scum, and he kills NS (who flips JK) -- then Xeras knows that he's in trouble. Everyone else is ruled out:

Xeras can't suspect me, he already said I was townie. He won't suspect IAI, because no one is going to vote for IAI. He can't suspect DC, DC was being jailed.

It'll be interesting to see who gets night killed.

[whilst]

My name is Napoleon Bonaparte.

[whilst]

Hey guys, I've been on vacation -- it was lovely.

I came home today to a flooded basement -- it wasn't lovely. I'm all settled down now, so I'll read over the current day's progress in a sec.

[whilst]

Vanilla Townie. Nothing special. I am not going to go out of my way to fake claim in an open game. >>

I didn't protect anyone during night 3. Otherwise it would mess with the results concerning you and your being cleared. Before that. I have no idea. There was no real reason for singersigner to tell me the previous actions.

Does saying "vanilla townie" also mean there could be more to your role? I thought "vanilla townie" meant,

I am a normal town person

. And then, you claim doctor.

Xeras, why were you playing so scummy during the end of D3 if you're the doctor, or innocent? And if you're the doctor (DC is cop), then IAI is the scum. I could make a case against you because of your late D3 actions, but now I need to consider making a case against IAI. I can start by responding to this:

Not much time elapsed before cavjj hammered, but whilst never did get a vote in that day,

and when dicknose finally voted in Post 88, surprise, surprise, it was for cavjj

(afraid to get on any townie's bad side that early in the game?)

I actually saw that too.
He never really gave a reason for his vote as well IIRC. And this type of distraction is quite popular. I really start wondering whatever my PR reads from him were due to rolecop...

Him switching out twisted the game quite a lot.

In dicknose/Xeras' defense, dicknose drew almost no attention to himself during the previous days -- why would Xeras mess that up with his playstyle?. Hmm...IAI pointed out that cavjj's claim was pure BS after NS stated that a cop hammering is unlikely (and therefore scummy). Perhaps IAI saw that his scumpartner was doomed and decided to help by killing him off. Besides, how long was it before someone else pointed out cavjj's mistake?

Okay so I'm the last one...

I'm a cop. I investigated Cav on N1 and got "Innocent" and then Abel on N2 and got "Guilty".
In other words: I'm VT

You're a cop, but you got the wrong read on cavjj, and the wrong read on Abel. So you're insane? Who did you investigate on N3?
----

I could be really confused by the above but: if NS was JK and DC was cop...then we can't have a doctor?

DC

, are you a townie or a cop? If you're a cop, then Xeras has to be scum, right?

[whilst]

And if you're the doctor (DC is cop), then IAI is the scum. I could make a case against you because of your late D3 actions, but now I need to consider making a case against IAI. I can start by responding to this:

Not really an edit, but -- Yeah, I'm confused. I just read the D4 pages twice. Clear up the claims for me.

[whilst]

Um, all right. I guess it was "funny"....not.

Xeras, I still have no way of trusting you of being doctor. We could have NS as our only PR. You still have to answer for your scummy D3 actions.

---

Looking at cavjj's posts, this one in particular did make me wonder why cavjj would take this 'stance'. So I looked for his reasoning and I quote (source):

IAI has gone all the game being seriously defensive and somehow getting away with it. He goes long periods of time without posting, defends himself and levels his post out with a very small acknowledgement of suspicion. There are very few cognitive projective arguments from IAI. Usually only small comments finished with “noted.” . He’s lurking, not saying enough and he’s scum.
Let’s take a look at IAI’s analytic nature. When he does actually post, they are full of analysis, while at the same time giving very little away. Most of his analysis only goes along with what we already actually know. That we should suspect player x or player y. Then when something comes up that actually needs analysing, he comes up with this gem:

N1, have no idea scumhunter was the choice. He came off as very null D1, so not sure what scum was thinking.

How can you be so dismissive?

------------------------------

VOTE: I Am Innocent

I am off for lunch, I will post my whilst stuff later today

Reading that again, I can't even understand that point cavjj was trying to make against IAI...it's not incriminating at all. Now either cavjj is trying to distance himself because he is IAI's scum partner, or cavjj was scum and only wanted IAI to be lynched. The latter is the part that doesn't make sense.

We know that NS's JK-actions saved Abel from the mafia kill. Abel did start the bandwagon to kill cavjj, and he also did bring IAI to L-1 -- if cavjj and IAI are the duo, it is easy to see why IAI targeted Abel. IAI could have been afraid that Abel would bring the attention back to IAI during the following day. Just speculation, but worthy to note.

By my own logic, particularly the point of cavjj's 'stance' against IAI, I can bring myself to doubt IAI's status as townie. I will wait for Xeras' day 3 defense, and IAI's comments. I would place a vote on IAI, but one wrong lynch and we lose (assuming DC votes to lynch IAI).

[whilst]

DC, the reason dicknose/Xeras was on your wagon is because he hated your play style and/or was annoyed with you. With Abel being innocent, your bickering with him sidetracked everyone.

Post 125 doesn't mean anything, at all. Nor does the "funny slip" -- I think it was an honest mistake.

[whilst]

@whilst, did you say on the other site that cop investigations sometimes give you a power role reveal? And does dicknose also play on that site?

Yeah, but we won't be playing that way ever again. No dicknose does not play on that site.

@whilst, who do you suspect right now and why?

I'm split on you and Xeras.

IAI and DC, do you believe that Xeras is the doctor?

[whilst]

IAI pointed out that cavjj's claim was pure BS after NS stated that a cop hammering is unlikely (and therefore scummy). Perhaps IAI saw that his scumpartner was doomed and decided to help by killing him off. Besides, how long was it before someone else pointed out cavjj's mistake?

Why help by "killing him off"? We now know there is no cop/doctor and only 1 power role, so back on D2 at most scum would have known that there is a JK. So why would scum IAI not lay low and see if some player counter claims cop or doctor. I basically killed any chance at a power role outting themself by calling out cavjj's lies. Is that something you would think I would do if I was cavjj's teammate?

Allow me to clarify: I meant "and decided to help himself by killing [cavjj] off". So, yeah, you got what I meant. Hmm...Didn't Xeras just say he was doctor? Yeah, your defense does have some weight.

[whilst]

Xeras, don't ignore my question. Why was your behavior scummy during the end of D3?

[whilst]

If Xeras is the doctor, he should be able to tell us who dicknose protected on N2. Assuming he is the doctor:

What if Abel was jailed, but not targeted? Then, dicknose had picked the right target to save.

Right?

[whilst]

Well that's great, both DC and Xeras played lynchbait in this game -- apparently. The only person I don't "get" at this point is 'Xeras':

1. D3, he plays incredibly scummy, after dicknose's mostly townie (I think we can agree. Dicknose accrued less than 5 votes the whole game, I think) playstyle
2. D4, he claims townie, claims doctor, claims fakeclaim and still is townie

Both actions are so incredibly scummy in their own way, that I feel that he might be doing it on purpose. DC, if Xeras played lynchbait, he did a more convincing job than you. Perhaps now it is more crucial than ever.

I had a feeling dicknose/Xeras was innocent before. This was my reasoning that I hinted at during D3:

DC two things:

1. I don't get why you believe NS so easily and not IAI (like me). IAI ousted cavjj by pointing out the flaw in cavjj's claim. If IAI were cavjj's partner, he would've kept his mouth shut at all costs.
   
   
2. In my scenario, do you care if you are lynched on D3, D4, or D5?

1) Because the moment Cav claimed he investigated and found the Jailer, the first thing that to pop in my mind was "if mafia really investigated and found the Jailer, it must have been the IC". If you don't kill the IC due to fear of him being protected - then at least investigate him. That's my way of thinking and the reason I'm willing trust his claim to an extend. I expected him to be the Jailer before he even claimed.

As for IAI. True, what he did was quite protown. I would have liked him to keep quiet for a while and try extract more info, but I admit I most likely wouldn't have thought about doing this as well in his place. Thing is, it still could be intended bussing or/and an attempt to shut his partner up so that others can't extract information. While I agree that IAI is more likely town, I don't really want a plan which bets on this.

2) I don't really think it matters.

But as I said, I'm not willing to be part of it unless the second assumption is a townie cleared by actions which are nearly 100% town. Like claim, cop investigation (btw, if scum claims cop then anyway whoever he says is cleared - is definitely cleared) or being Jailed when NK occurs.

The boldface is what matters. From this I figured DC was innocent and didn't have a power role. I pressed dicknose/Xeras for the same answer:

It matters to me in that I'd like who I find scummiest to go first.

I don't know that I support your plan, however.

Regardless of the fact that both of them didn't support my plan, neither of them objected to being lynched within the next three days. The only reason why anyone would've objected would have been because they were a PR or were scum.

So:

So Whilst, I think it's all up to you. IAI and me both think it's Xeras (based on Dicknose's play). Please decide what is your stance.

I will vote for IAI.
VOTE: I Am Innocent

And my vote would also be on Xeras at the moment if there wasn't part of me that still worries that the whilst might be the last scum.

Really? And you find me scummy, because? I think the above post/quote is your definitive

scumslip

. Someone who has found me repeatedly town the entire game (yes, the entire game -- shall I quote your posts for you, or should I just direct you to IAI's ISO? Just ctrl+f "whilst" down the page. The entire game you think I'm townie, but now you have the fear that I'm going to hammer Xeras. Well, well, well.

DC, I'll let you think about that. IAI, offer a rebuttal. I think it's IAI, not Xeras.

[whilst]

DC, your feelings on my arguments against IAI are similar to the ones I have on your arguments against Xeras. I'll try to find more reasons. Just real quick, I'll go back to this one you brought up earlier. Actually this has been posted about a billion times now:

D1 L-1 wagons:

Honest Abel (4):

I Am Innocent

,

Dark Claymore

,

BBmolla

,

cavjj

BBmolla (5):

Scumhunter

,

Honest Abel

,

I Am Innocent

,

Dark Claymore

,

cavjj

Does this help convince you to any effect? For both wagons, the safe "defense" is

"it was D1, and we were at RVS"

. But we're not at D1 anymore. We know cavjj was scum, and we know what his true intentions were. I think the same can be said for IAI.

[whilst]

VOTE: I Am Innocent

hahahah you're such a dick. I was reading the posts one by one, and when I saw this my heart jumped. "Fuck, Xeras was mafia?!"

but then he wasn't!

gg. Awards?

MVP: Honest Abel

[whilst]

Abel, you're not a noob. Never join a noob game ever again unless you come in as IC or SE.

[whilst]

I don't think I'm playing another mafia game until winter break. This was soooooo time consuming. I'll make a full post later.

[whilst]

K, full post:

Overall, I had an amazing time playing this game. It completely sucked up a lot of free time I had, and it used up a lot of brain time too. I would be sitting in class, drawing something stupid, when I would just think about the game. The game was also 10^1000x better than the games I played with Abel on the townhall -- probably because people here care about playing. The one thing I didn't like is how much of the game people relied on other players' playstyles from other mafia games. To me, it makes no sense. You can play a completely different game, with a completely different personality. Also, using outside information from someone's history is really unfair, imo. I think if I were moderator, I'd ban such discussion -- for real. Whatevs, this game was a mindfuck and a half sometimes, which is great.

The final day wasn't as frustrating as the earlier ones. Having two confirmed townies, in my mind (me and DC), was a lot easier than "holy shit all these people are potentially mafia omgomgomgomgomg". IAI, you responses in the end were "examples of where I could've been scummier, but I wasn't -- so I'm not scum". I think if you had defended my arguments differently, you would've had more time alive. I also didn't expect DC to come over to my (and Xeras') viewpoint so quickly. But he took the plunge, and it paid off. I'm still amazed that both DC and Xeras thought I was pure town in the end; I said enough to DC in the past days that could've really gone both ways.

I'm still thinking about people saying "you don't take a stance" blah blah and "pleasing both sides", but I'm hoping singer can add more input on that subject.

singersigner

- thanks for moderating! I wanted to be mafia, but oh well.

Wickedestjr

- man, you left early. Hope to play with you sometime in the future.

BBmolla

- we now know why you got lynched, but gg? I wonder how the game would've turned out if Abel was town lynched, and not you.

scumhunter

- you died an early death too. Um. Hope to play with you again eventually. You and BBmolla both.

cavjj

- survived the riots, did you? You played a good game, but that hammer bothered me (and everyone else) from the get-go. Besides that, you had some really good responses to inquiries. Um...don't know what else to say other than you probably shouldn't hammer like that in the future.

Honest Abel

- in the beginning, I thought you were scum. You posted way too much and I thought you were just drilling everyone just so that someone could be lynched, regardless of the reason. After NS jailed you, and there was such a massive movement to get your lynch...it didn't make any sense. That and the fact that you changed from IAI to cavjj (both scum, heh) during the previous day. But with 529 posts, I guess you had to be town the entire time. Hmm...Oh yeah. Don't kill yourself in the game, it didn't help at all besides knowing your status. But yeah, I agree with everyone else. You're a fucking machine. Ha, one more thing. When you suggested I had a "code" with cavjj -- that was sooo ridiculous, that I want to try that in a future game.

Nobody Special

- Man, you gotta answer questions when people ask you them. It's really frustrating sometimes to see you ignore the same question 3 pages in a row. Because wickedestjr jailed DC during N1, you should've jailed him again during N2 -- perhaps? Eh, maybe not. Whatever. I still don't see why you jailed Abel in the first place, but it ended up being a good thing. I also

still

don't see you reasons for finding me scummy, especially after we knew cavjj was mafia.

DarkClaymore

- Ha. I don't even know what to make of yours and Abel's 50 page long arguments. Good game. Next time, I think you should be a little less concerned about proving yourself as town. I still don't see your lynchbait strategy (but I do see Xeras'). Oh well, glad it's over. Some of your responses to me, I didn't quite get...but I think that was because of my wording.

dicknose

- gg, you shouldn't have switched out. Although Xeras got the job done with his lynchbait thing, I would've had less trouble believing you were townie than Xeras. Come play at the townhall forum sometime.

I Am Innocent

- good game. You had me going for sooo long. I did think it was weird when everyone pointed out that you were defending me, or whatever, but I really didn't think anything of it. I just assumed you understood my viewpoint. That was such a great move of you to point out cavjj's full mistake after NS pointed out why it was unreasonable. But in the end, things can go both ways. You were definitely the second best player (Abel being the first).

whilst

- you had some really horrible strategies, but we're the best. We'll win next time too. Also, you definitely gained mad exp. points from playing. A+

yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

I don't know who these other people are, that posted, but I would probably never follow another mafia game.

[whilst]

Oh,

singer

, who did you think was gonna win?

[whilst]

be honesttttttttttttttttttt

[whilst]

who did you think was mafia?