C9++ Discussion

[yabbaguy]

That's why I'm calling in farside. I think we're agreed on most things except the Miller stuff.

[Hoopla]

I'm bumping this again now. Yabba/Magua, can either of you post the entire setup with all the proposed changes?

[Magua]

I'll defer to yabbaguy, unless he doesn't pick this up in a week or so.

[Hoopla]

Removing the Spy for mafia and slightly restructuring their list of options seems like a pretty good way to enable Mafia role flips, without trapping scum upon one of them dying.

I'm in favour of a day-start too. There is too much variance in possible setups going into D1 with a night start. 1-shot/Odd-Night type modifiers seems like a good way to stagger power for cops - I'm not sure miller use is necessary. If it is, I don't like unaware millers.

[yabbaguy]

What we had settled on previously: as-is, BUT:

* Game Day Starts instead of Night Starts
* An Insane Cop investigating a Godfather gets a Guilty (GF shows inno, Insane gets opposite. Same with SK). This is just a matter of making a rule consistent.
* SK does not get notified if Spy targets them - how they appear with Spy Immunity is an active action they take each Night.
* Innocent Children are confirmed D1. Again, a consistency issue.

We're a hung jury on how to deal with one C and/or millers at present. Thoughts?

[Hoopla]

12p nightstart is the functional equivalent of an 11p daystart - would it be worthwhile changing to an 11 or 13p base? I agree with D1 confirmation for IC's.

For the C's, how about something like this;

C = 1-Shot Cop
CC = Sane Cop
CCC = Sane Cop, 1-shot Cop
CCCC = 2 Sane Cops
CCCCC = 2 Sane Cops, 1-Shot Cop
CCCCCC = 3 Sane Cops

~~

For the scum power, if we were to drop the Spy, we could probably end up allowing reveals. Maybe something like this;

TTTTTTT = Goon + Roleblocker
TTTTTT = Goon + Godfather, Serial Killer
TTTTT = 2 Goons + Godfather
TTTT = 2 Goons + Godfather, Serial Killer (1-Shot BP)
TTT = 2 Goons + Roleblocker
TT = 2 Goons + Roleblocker, Serial Killer (1-Shot BP OR Investigation Immune - SK's choice pregame)
T = Goon + Roleblocker + Godfather
0 Ts = Goon + Roleblocker + Godfather, Serial Killer (1-Shot BP, Investigation Immune)

This disguises the setup enough regardless of whatever the flip is. For the SK, they just flip SK without their powers, but there's little damage done if a player flips Godfather or Roleblocker. The SK doesn't need 5 individual powers, regardless of how strong the town is. Having investigation immunity and/or 1-shot BP is plenty.

What do you think about this?

[Katsuki]

SK dealing with a possible 2 vig + mafia setup with only a one-shot BP is quite the uphill battle imo.

And that's not considering a 3 vig setup (which is incredibly unlikely)

[Hoopla]

SK dealing with a possible 2 vig + mafia setup with only a one-shot BP is quite the uphill battle imo.

And that's not considering a 3 vig setup (which is incredibly unlikely)

There are plenty of combinations that will give lower odds than usual. In a 13p mini, Serial Killers are often 1-Shot BP (or have no powers), and usually go up against a 3p mafia team and a 2-3 town PR's. There's an outside chance of a setup with 2 vigs being apart of those 3 powers - though I wouldn't say it'd be an inherent disadvantage, as it speeds the game up to endgame quicker.

I'm more worried about the TTTTT section - three mafia (with a GF) against a possible 1 or 2 town PR's is almost always going to be unbalanced, especially in a 3:9 game.

[Hoopla]

Actually, looking again, VV only equals a Vig and a 1-shot Vig. I see nothing wrong with that.

[Katsuki]

I suppose it's for the sake of the reveal giving as little information about the setup as possible, but in a (TT) and (0 T) game, kinda bad.

[Hoopla]

I think the SK is fine - 1-Shot BP and a NK is plenty powerful, not to mention it has perfect information of what setup it's playing it. We'll see what others think.

I'm more concerned about the TTTTT situation - it could very well be a Sane Cop up against 3 mafia. Or an IC/Roleblocker. I don't know how I feel about that.

[Kcdaspot]

hoopla has too much cake.

o wait it's your b-day.

[Johhog]

What we had settled on previously: as-is, BUT:

* Game Day Starts instead of Night Starts
* An Insane Cop investigating a Godfather gets a Guilty (GF shows inno, Insane gets opposite. Same with SK). This is just a matter of making a rule consistent.
* SK does not get notified if Spy targets them - how they appear with Spy Immunity is an active action they take each Night.
* Innocent Children are confirmed D1. Again, a consistency issue.

We're a hung jury on how to deal with one C and/or millers at present. Thoughts?

Sorry for the bump, but how usable is these changes today, without further tweaking? The reason I'm asking is because I'm running an off-site C9++ in a couple of weeks, so I wonder if I can use these changes without changing something else and still get it balanced. If not, is there something else I have to change?

[Magua]

Just decide how you'll handle the miller and you're good to go. The only major change in that list is Day start instead of Night start, and I think that's a good one -- the others are just consistency things.

[Johhog]

So is it still balanced with 12 players and Day Start then?

I guess I'll go with aware millers, not really a fan of naive millers.

[Magua]

Yes. Let us know how it goes.

[Johhog]

Will do. Thanks!

[ender241]

Would people mind if i did one of these games as a mini-theme? I know it's done alot as a mini-theme was just wondering if it was only done by one person or not and whether you guys would mind?

[Magua]

It's usually run as an Open, and is structured so that mass claim is of limited benefit. I guess you could run it as a Theme, but I just see little point in doing so compared to figuring out which roles you want in the Theme yourself.

[ender241]

Oh right, nvm then i just thought i saw it on mini theme once.

[Hoopla]

Rebumping this because I want to get it approved and back into circulation. I'm worried about several of the 3-scum setups, especially if town doesn't get awarded a Vigilante. It takes us back to the dark 3:9 days of old, with the horrible 70% winrates in setups without vigs. I'm strongly in favour of making this setup a 13-player game with a Daystart.

I think the setup will also be improved if we drop the Mafia Spy, as it now enables us to allow full role-reveals without trapping the scum and confirming town players. Here's how I see the layout for the scum roles;

TTTTTTT = Goon, Godfather, Serial Killer (Inv-Immune) (2:1:10 Mountainous)
TTTTTT = Goon, Godfather (2:11 with 1 PR)
TTTTT = Goon, Roleblocker, Serial Killer (1-Shot BP) (2:1:10 with 1-2 PR's)
TTTT = 2 Goons, 1 Godfather (3:10 with 2-3 PR's)
TTT = 2 Goons, 1 Roleblocker, 1 Serial Killer (1-Shot BP OR Inv-Immune) (3:1:9 with 2-4 PR's)
TT = 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker, 1 Godfather (3:10 with 3-5 PR's)
T = 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker, 1 Godfather, 1 Serial Killer (1-Shot BP OR Inv-Immune) (3:1:9 with ~5 PR's)
0 T's = 2 Roleblockers, 1 Goon (3:10 with ~5 PR's)

This creates a much more stable incline in power which stays relatively balanced throughout. Again, the removal of the Mafia Spy and giving the SK choice of it's power pregame enables full scum flips which is an obvious improvement to the setup. Another point of contention was the C's, so my suggestion;

C = 1-Shot Cop
CC = Cop
CCC = Cop, 1-Shot Cop
CCCC = 2 Cops
CCCCC = 2 Cops, 1-Shot Cop
CCCCCC = 3 Cops

Using 1-shot as the staple variation makes more sense across the board, not only for the Cops section but for the Vig, Doc and Roleblocker section too. It gives a more uniform variation for each category which makes the slight increase in power easier to stagger. So for the other sections;

D = Doctor
DD = Doctor, 1-Shot Doc
DDD = 2 Doctors
DDDD = 2 Doctors, 1-Shot Doc
DDDDD = 3 Doctors

V = 1-Shot Vig
VV = Vig
VVV = Vig, 1-Shot Vig
VVVV = 2 Vigs
VVVVV = 2 Vigs, 1-Shot Vig

B = Roleblocker
BB = Roleblocker, 1-Shot Roleblocker
BBB = 2 Roleblockers
BBBB = 2 Roleblockers, 1-Shot Roleblocker

The Mason section is fine as it is, with the Innocent Child being locked into the variant of being announced Day 1.

~~

So yep, this is what I'd like to do. 13p Daystart with full role reveal. Serial Killer gets choice of BP or Inv-Immune pregame, which is roughly on par with most powers SK's get in Mini Normals with 3-4 town PR's and 3 scum. We avoid the fuss of random amounts of Millers, sanity mixups with GF's and should create a much more even scale of power.

[izakthegoomba]

Looks good to me, especially the C part.

Potential stupid question: is the godfather still investigation immune?

Also, I know it's unlikely, but what happens if you get 7 Cs? Or 6 Ds or Vs? Or 5 Bs? Do you re-randomise it?

[Hoopla]

Looks good to me, especially the C part.

Potential stupid question: is the godfather still investigation immune?

Also, I know it's unlikely, but what happens if you get 7 Cs? Or 6 Ds or Vs? Or 5 Bs? Do you re-randomise it?

Yeah, Godfather is immune to Cops.

I assume the reason the letters stopped where they did was due to that being the maximum amount of power a sector gives - so 7 gives out the same as 6. Maybe 6 C+ or 4 B+ would be a better way to describe the sections.

[izakthegoomba]

Right. So if you got BBBBBBB, the town would still only get 2 RBs and a 1-shot RB?

Oops, just realised the chances of that happening are about 1 in 1.2 Billion.

Doing a few more probability tests, the chances of it ever making any difference are negligible.

[Magua]

I approve of every single one of these changes.