Open 326: Pick Your Poison (Ende des Speils!)

[MrTrow]

Hi.
reading
real post should be here later today.

as for the RQS things:
1. GMT +1
2. 5 completed, 1 ongoing (other site + face-to-face exp are not really comparable)
3. on time(which varies a lot) and content: with a default(trying to move away from this) of a wall every 2/3 days, a reread every 2/3 walls

[MrTrow]

i`ll read again tomorrow (haven`t slept much this week) :

on lane`s pointing out a PR-read (although the detail lane himself pointing this out deminishes it) i do consider it clumsy-town over scum.

on maruchan`s 'deliberate absence': not buying it:
someone who spends way more time than others here yet doesn`t keep track of own outstanding questions expects info out of activity-checks by others. unlikely
i agree with the town-points for hoppster by it though (scum has very little motivation to look for something like that)
giving scumpoints for not commenting on said action in a 'hi replacing in, just started reading post' also isn`t helping

NS inactivity: well, considering tomorrow's reread will very likely produce no additional information here: VOTE: Nobody Special

Saulres attempt to capture the entire team from a newbie who`s wagon just desolved, greatly putting his name to the potential lynch, seems unnecessary risky for scum, for now a town read.

more tomorrow

[MrTrow]

Mr. Trow, what do you think of everyone who has votes on them? A short 3 sentence response to each, and whether you think the votes are justified and/or are right would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry, catching up turned out to be harder than expected (currently working on it(skimmed all full read in progress)).
In the skim i encountered very little to not hammer any of the current top 3 wagons over a deadline-no-lynch.
(consider this post a 'don`t replace me yet': i`m on it)

[MrTrow]

Sorry it took so long for me to respond:
(got some work to do, i i want to be welcomed next time like i was here)

1) Amrun
- usefull content, decent(or better) hunting,
- calls out both the lack of any pro-town input (usually there) as well as the 'normal personality' on glowball(contributes to both sides of discussion(looks like no hidden agenda))
: Town

2) Auckmid
- didn`t find much relevant: other than placing the vote based purely on the information the flip would provide (the vote was a prob-last post before a v/la till deadline = good, but washes off all responsibility for the actual flip)
: null-scum

5) lane0168 *
- confident in own reads (way more than when we were buddies, some checkup on this is currently on my todo list)
- #342 'scum would have cracked by now'
: null-town

6) Maruchan
- lurking to see who points it out - bs (especially while in another game with the one that caught you, even if he replaced in later)
- loves yet prevents RQS as discussion starter based on a joke, which lasted from p2 to p8 (on page 4 it was clear, this wasn`t going to get resolved any time soon)
- wifom-lover (at least as scum) who uses 'doc' as base for setup-discussions -> knows the setup?
- few weak 'trying to look town' points (#101 calling thunder town based on the weakest part of his #89, hey i`m also a clumsy-town @#526 )
: Scum
- last line of #634: were you afraid of a total moron(yeah right, it requires more intelligence to write the unvote post than to realise this is a bad idea) going for a no-lynch or glowball`s somewhat clumsy buddy(which would be a second scum identified for the price of a no-lynch)?

7) Hoppster, rep. NihilisticNinja
- pursueing details, not afraid to pick sides
: leaning town

8) mothrax, rep. Nobody Special
- put more effort in meta-ing replacement than in combined information of any kind over both slot-owners combined (#485: busy researching NS-town-games, #499 not fully caught up yet)
: scum

9) RoboThor (Robocopter87/Thor665), rep. petroleumjelly
- very little to comment on, what there is, is ok(or better)
- mainly what i see is: the spontanious reaction of a 2-headed creature and the tone of the bearded man.
: null(+)

10) saulres
- somewhat of a slow starter, but a decent player, nothing questionable found yet.
null-town

11) Supreme Overlord
- uhm, no deadline is closer (#429) and unofficial votecount (#462): 2 accounts of making sure an accidental no-lynch didn`t happen
- informing about me getting replaced (+ pressure-vote in case of a no (detecting there was not pressure behind this vote, requires me to read the game=goal)): wanting more (fresh) opinions in the game is a town-tell in my book
- lane case is bad though (especially the remark on #550)
: leaning town

12) thunderwielder:
- playing a good towngame
- his prod on me 3 days till deadline with no (reasonable) chance to get me lynched: even stronger version of the 'fresh opinion-request'
: town

VOTE: MaruChan

[MrTrow]

I will unvote when you learn how to read.
1. "Based on a joke". based on a joke? -.- did you not fuckign read? I TRIED TO PREVENT IT BASED ON ROBOTHOR'S HATING IT. And RoboTHor kindly vouched for this when he finally showed up. Ask him if you don't believe me.

Like he said,

it was mostly me just picking fun at him

in revenge for getting lynched by him.

2. "Uses doc as a base for setup-discussions" ??? Link to where I used doc as a base for setup discussions, as the only place I remember mentioning the word doc, is: BE WARY OF SCUM FAKECLIMING IT. hadurdadur?

When I am a doc I PR hunt

Also don't ever forget the favorite tool of scum, WIFOM. If any doc claims today with a save, I highly doubt they are being legit. More likely scum claiming to save, so as to A: Make town think they have a doc when they don't, B: Out the real doc, C: Clear one of their own.

last but clearly not least

-fakescenario-
-me Saulres are scumbuddies-
IM CLAIMING DOCTOR!!!!!
I WAS ON SAULRES LAST NIGHT!!!!!
no ccs?
WE'RE BOTH CLEAR
-/fake scenario-

3. "glowball's somewhat clumsy buddy" -.- Seriously? Just. Really? Get out. What did glowball flip gudsir?

I hammered to make sure that some idiot wouldn't unvote and force a no lynch.

Not only did glowball not flip yet at that time. (nullifying your point)
Said unvote would most likely have been made by someone we would like to catch (if a single No Lynch would have that result: great)(the point i was actually making)
Your remark i just quoted is either clumsy/incorrect or simply a lie

Hoppster: congrats, but it seems you`ll have to go without my mothrax vote for a little longer

[MrTrow]

Spoiler: @Maru, 'not reading debate'

to poke fun at:
- to tease
- to ridicule in a mischievous manner
- to make a joke at the expense of

As for the doctor-thing: i am not saying your stance is that we must have a doctor, my point is you are taking a stance.
Doc claims are a scum move can easily be translated to 'there is no doc'
(whether or not your remarks completely deny the possibility of a doc is irrelevant/you did admit to 2 cases of stating there will not be a doc-claim from town)
especially after you flip scum.
Considering you have admitted to be a wifom-lover this is what i would expect scum-maru to do.

If you want (me) to look at the the individual remarks:
"if i was a doc "(i would be doing exactly what this player just did): trying to be the next 'clumsy town'? (you even quoted a clumsy-town rather than scum for this)
"I WILL NOT BELIEVE DOC CLAIMS": did you want to talk about doctors? or were you intentionally preventing players from committing scum-tells?(actively hindering scumhunting?)
"fake scenario"(possibilities due to specific mechanic): would only work if there is no roleblocker (which in that scenario does exist) and would immediately draw the cop`s attention, while such a fake scenario with a cop would work as long as the cop isn`t roleblocked (which is detectable) .

"CALLING ME GLOWBALL'S BUDDY": i didn`t call you glowballs buddy, i called the 'unvoting idiot' glowballs buddy, as such your claimed motivation for that hammer would be (best case) town-you preventing a scum-tell in the 'unvoting idiot', result: i don`t buy your claimed motivation

MrTrow, can you comment on lane's case on Maruchan (post 550)?

Spoiler: My problems with your remark

You attack lane for not switching votes for 23 pages (nothing wrong with this if it remains the best case)
And call the glowball and NS wagons as motivation why the 23-page-long vote was not on the best case.
Lane had a townread on glowball and believed more pressure would not result in more info: one does not vote a townread, more info was indeed not coming
as for NS: What was there to add to the case/what information would come from the flip?

If it wasn`t for the deadline the vote/case(/pressure) were all where they needed to be, come deadline the vote was switched accordingly.
I do admit seeing a (weak but) possible connection lane-mothrax here, but i still have lane as town

Spoiler: My opinion on the case

- Maruchan`s careless response to a few votes indeed do not match calling glowball`s "You should lynch me"-card a scumtell
- The 'glowball has pulled this distancing/bussing scheme before' argument (a decent argument imo) is simply being ridiculed (although it matches the 'careless attitude' i don`t like it)
- I`m not as sold on the 'trying to look helpfull'-argument
- the 'lurking to see who picks it up' was indeed terrible (at best), excuse(/lie) more likely

all in all an ok case (decent continuation of one) with which i can agree with on over half of the points

@Hoppster: i assume this is a sufficient alternative for tl;dr

[MrTrow]

@Amrun:
The reasons stated at the time the vote was made, were indeed terrible
it was also the first vote to state a non RVS reason other than the roleplaying newbie: a player who lane did look at(afaict).

I know you have a slightly different view on 'puposely-scummy actions' but
the case that grew over time i do consider a relatively good case.

I believe i also defended against (voting it over) suggested alternative cases.
Could you please restate/rephrase your issue with my remark or tell me (or better yet lane) which case at which moment should have resulted in a vote-switch?


Ninja-edit:
Lane i`m looking forward to see what you actually meant (and your results of the reread you promised as a result of that quote)

[MrTrow]

So far i have a townread on Tragedy.

The iso all users to catchup makes sense.
Scum would have taken a better look at names by that point (qt?).
The Auckmid-read (however useless for obvious reasons) looks like an honest mistake that scum would not make.

as for Maru when i get back from work i`ll do a meta-read on the guy, but for now:

- as for the 'fun' in 'poking fun'-discussion: it is not relevant whether or not the one poking / the one being poked / anyone looking to consider the situation 'funny'/worthy of the title 'joke'
fact remains maru did prevent a conversation starter (RQS) for reasons that were not relevant to this game, was informed of the fact this wasn`t going to get cleared up anytime soon (as the robothor account wasn`t activated) still decided to encourage those who were willing to wait for it.

- as for the 'doc-fakeclaim is easy'-counter: false, cop-fakeclaim is the (obvious) easiest (which leaves the 'mentioning doc at irrelevant times only serves your setup-wifom'-point intact)

- NEW ADDITION: my favorite: 'lane was pr-hunting', was a mayor part of the case, maru pointed out this could be a doc-tell as well. YET he didn`t CARE about HAMMERING someone he had just explained to be a POSSIBLE DOC.

VOTE: maruchan

[MrTrow]

Sorry for the long wait ('general apathy'), so i`m not denying the lazy-accusation.

Spoiler: as for 'my read regarding maru'

(@thunder: i`m not going to omit things just because you said them too at some point)

Maru: given the word 'imply' doesn`t seem to be in your vocabulary, what is your stance on 'multiple scumreads?'
- you seem to have a problem with people 'awarding scumpoints' to multiple players without a decent theory on how they are buddies even if both 'awards' have been properly motivated.
-you seem to considerteam-predictions 'stupid'

Here he not only shows why his '(RQS)-warning' isn`t nearly as usefull as 'the letting us wait for 6 pages' made it seem (even when he knew people were actually waiting on it and it was known waiting would take a while longer) he also shows an excuse for 'not going against any read by thor'
in addition to refusing to vote until tragedy does all of the heavy lifting for him
I don`t like how he avoids (responsibility for) reads this way.

His call against doc claims with only the doc having posted that day after a no-kill night (a post b.t.w. in which the possibility of a doc is listed first, and explained in a less-hypotetical tone than the other options) has resulted in no information from the now deceased doc. I`m not sure this was his intention, but it sure did work.

As for the 'doc-claim-thing':
He provided an argument how lane could be doc in a discussion about whether or not lane is scummy because of this very reason. (i don`t see how he claims the 2 aren`t related is relevant in any way other than maybe a defensive lie)
Despite this he DIDN`T CARE about hammering this very person(by his own logic possible doc).
The fact thst he didn`t hammer lane, or that lane self-hammered after this is by no means relevant.

Thunder`s defence of this last point (doc-lane wouldn`t self-vote) simply isn`t true, barring briliant plans(or delusions of such) the only reason to ever self-vote is one for scum (true, he wouldn`t have self-hammered, but that happened later)

@Thunder: about the meta-thing: none of this is based on meta, i intend to meta-read him (indeed i still haven`t) to see if it clears him.

@Maru: If your defence could include more than a 'i never said that (only implied it), nice try' that would be nice.

As for my other reads:

Spoiler: @Tragedy: (catchup of me)

The 'decent towngame' in my thunder read in catchup, was about this game. I have (yes still do) both of them as prob-town, even if they are scum they will not be the first scum to be caught.
As for the 'prod'-argument: indeed no-one would want to lynch me at that point, but scum also wouldn`t want my (or any other) fresh perspective so close to deadline (unless it was to save a buddy, considering mothrax and glowball being the top wagons at that point, with the glowball wagon being the one that was growing faster and glowball now being confirmed town i consider this reason quite unlikely)

As for my 'scum wouldn`t be looking for that'-towntell on hoppster: It was about avoiding this game - while being active in others. A pretty strong tell in my book.
Although you are completely correct in stating scum tries to look town (and this particular example could even help getting someone lynched).
I consider it such a reliable tell, that scum wouldn`t look for them as the know they don`t exist (unless we`re talking about hoppster trying to buss maru, followed by maru buddying hoppster for it (i don`t think so)).
I will admit that the detail that hoppster and maruchan being in another game at that moment gives hoppster an 'unfair advantage' making the 'town-points' invalid , making maru`s awarding of these points making his 'absence-ploy' less credible

This post has caught my eye somewhat as it came shortly after amrun abandoned the lane-wagon due to it being stalling for the mothrax wagon, restoring the lane-wagon to activity leading op to a lane-lynch.
The 'minor detail' the post didn`t come from the hydra-account, but from a single head, makes the timing seem even more rushed (i know there is a 2-hour-headsup from the hydra but still)
The fact that the following post serves as 'other-head-confirmation' on the lane-case seems off(read ruch-suspicion-fuel) given how we were to assume such to begin with

this 'excuse to vote' isn`t helping either

Which leaves my current reads at:

Maru-scum (reasons should be clear).
mothrax- prob-scum active-lurker (will probably receive my vote if i`m content with maru`s response)
RoboThor- null-(hard to read regular lurker) or scum with mothrax.
SO/hoppster - null+
Amrun/thunder - probtown (at least until reread, probably caused by scumflip)
Tragedy - (although fakeable) believe to have townslipped with auckmid-read

@Thunder: about #775:
- entire thing has a somewhat defensive tone (for obvious reasons)
- point about mothrax is absolutely true (it subcontiously may have contributed to me picking up the potential RT-moth link)
- explanation about PR-read: i like: seems to me like an attempt to save his own skin as well as diminishing the actual pr-read on saulres (not sure the latter was intentional and it clearly didn`t work)
- most points about amrun are technically true but feel to much toned like emotion driven counter-attack to immediately go after amrun (might speed up my reread for it)

[MrTrow]

Tragedy started to iso everybody before checking who was who.
This is a mistake that someone who has read the scum-qt (given the 'detail' those contain the names of all partners(which would include auckmid))would not make.
Given the 'detail' pick-your-poison tragedy-scum would have given up(at least delay, for about a week?) both the knowledge of which powerrole to look for as well as who to protect in the read to make that mistake as scum.

Which makes it a mistake only town would make. (due to the detail that it can be faked, it will not result into infinite town-credit, if i would have left out the 'fakeable'-part, i would have called it a tell rather than a slip as well)

[MrTrow]

@Thunder: i hear. (reread will come before day`s end(D3 not sept19(i`ll try the latter, but no promises)))
here`s a connection thing.
This is the second time this game robothor became active when the leading wagon was losing to the mothrax wagon.

@Maru:
that`s sneaking on

L-1

I have seen sneaked L-1 around a replacement before (refering to SO being replaced, not moth being an NS-replacement), iirc it was part of how thor won my first newbie

[MrTrow]

Ending that sentence with a question mark probably doesn`t make sense to anyone.
Care to be more specific?

If it is about my last post:
You (minor detail, the current #2 wagon) put someone at L-1 WITHOUT pointing this out (while we are about to have a replacement coming in)
I see no problem with you not wanting to be lynched, i do see one with setting up an accidental quickhammer.
Intentional or not i want that to be clear:

Mothrax is currently at L-1

[MrTrow]

sorry, busy (yes just a prodvoid) i promise i`ll do better somewhere in the next 24-hours (now i just need some sleep)

[MrTrow]

aaaaannnnddd... We have another

UNANOUNCED L-1 (Tragedy this time)

not shifting my vote based on this directly as this vote did not have 'just read the votecount' as motivation.

[MrTrow]

This is the second time this game robothor became active when the leading wagon was losing to the mothrax wagon.

So...what? You're saying we shouldn't lynch Maru and should lynch Mothrax?

I also think Mothrax's flip will probably give us more information in terms of relationships. If Mothrax is scum, I hardly see Hoppster as scum, since he's been pushing Mothrax all game.

This is, in its sum totality, the best offer of info gained you provided for Mothrax over Maru.

No one sees these 2 as linkable?
I consider a mothrax (now deltaware)-flip as info on robothor because of these 2 instances of 'need to step in to save'.

Why Mothrax first? Looking at his last handful of posts in iso it doesn't look like he's totally derping and I support some of his conclusions.

Which are?

Ow and to answer your question: No i have not taken a definite stance between my top 2 scumreads yet (but Yes the link with you is an argument on 1 of them)

@Maru: is it 'later' yet and where is your 'second choice' coming from (as in, is there more than the 'missed prod')?

[MrTrow]

just in case maru, isn`t gone yet:
'the stuff after and': your claim that tragedy is your second choice for a lynch is based on 'what?' (taking the 'good catch' @ requesting a prod, while the prod was already out , cant possibly be all)
As for the 'another stupid case', there is support for it (from a player who considered older versions suspicious sheeping) so it is clearly 'not as idiotic' as before

as for hammer-intend: mine @ mothrax isn`t gone: so delta, your reads (and probably your claim) please.
going for tragedy as a 'compensation lynch' at this moment is well.... a bad idea

About the

'going after replacements ourselves'

: don`t we have a backup-mod for that kind of stuff? (as in we have a backup-mod, just not sure this is what they are for., pm-ing imag now)

[MrTrow]

[

Tragedy - (although fakeable) believe to have townslipped with auckmid-read

This makes zero sense. Obviously he just didn’t know who he was replacing.

uhmm....
That was my point.
After reading the scum-qt she probably would have known that.
That combined with the time it seems to take her to read-up, knowing 'which power to hunt for' is available in that qt, makes it unlikely she`s going for a 'townie perspective-read' before checking in with the team.

- wifom-lover (at least as scum) who uses 'doc' as base for setup-discussions -> knows the setup?

Awful point. In his example doc was the only power role that it made sense to use. I don’t like the tone either, it sounds like scum throwing something out just to see if it sticks.

2 problems with this:
- 1 no: the doc example was not the only thing that would make sense: in fact the entire -fakescenario- is bad
- 2 if i posted that to see if it would stick, why did i continue after it wouldn`t


I do like the post though (, well most of it)
I agree that it doesn`t have to be RoboThor to be the buddy who saved mothrax twice for the case to hold (he will still be a serious suspect on a delta-scum-flip)

which would ultimately please the scum quite a bit because we

will

have two townies dying tonight (me from lynch, one from NK).

Someone is assuming RB-will fail: why, do you know we don`t have one?
(yes a very weak addition i know)
VOTE: DeltaWave
back to L-1 with you

@quilford: the game is too long? (didn`t you update an overview stating this game was at least 90% of it`s current size prior to replacing in?)

[MrTrow]

(weekend at parents` for birthdays, more on monday(hopefully))

@Quilford: no counter from me.

With Thor flipping town, I think Mr. Trow and Tragedy almost have to be scum.

How?

RoboThor because he's alive (yes, being deadly serious here).

RoboThor was obvtown, though.

Was he?

Mr. Trow's "scumslip" is really not a scumslip at all - rather, HE is pointing out DELTAWAVE'S scumslip.

true. (point was actually IN THE SAME LINE)

Mr. Trow, since he isn't the roleblocker, could have made a slip yesterday.

How are you still keeping this up?
How do you know i`m not the roleblocker unless you`ve noticed the point (i attacked delta for 'assuming/knowing there was no roleblocker', if not this what gave you the 'he isn`t the roleblocker')

[MrTrow]

@Thunder: one translation of my last post coming right up:

How are you still keeping this up?

The case of 'my slip' is as follows:
- i point out delta assumes the roleblock will fail, conclude this may mean he knows there is no roleblocker
- then Quilford comes in and quotes the 'roleblock will fail' portion and concludes i`m talking about: the roleblocker will block the wrong person (how would i know there is a roleblocker)
- your #1013 notes this point and shelfs it due to the larger delta-case
- hoppster shows up and clears up quilford`s misread.
- after delta is lynched, you take this slip back from the shelf (even though the point is resolved)
in other words: why do you consider 'my slip' a valid point AFTER hoppster has already shattered the point

How do you know i`m not the roleblocker unless you`ve noticed the point?

There was (as far as i recall) only one point at which i said anything that would lead to the logical conclusion that i`m not a roleblocker prior to

Mr. Trow, since he isn't the roleblocker, could have made a slip yesterday.

Which was my conclusion that Delta 'knew' we didn`t have a roleblocker.

So either you have deduced i`m not the roleblocker by other means (if so please show me, using things prior to 1027 of course)
or you have read my motivation for the delta-slip argument and thus know the base for 'my slip' is incorrect. (in which case, why are you using it?)


@Cephrir:
Your 'bias' is indeed understandable.
The (too) easily forgotten point, maru came up with reasoning against the lane-case (claiming these to be unrelated),
yet being willing to hammer someone who according to the same logic could have been the doc (same lane) is not.

To answer your question regarding Tragedy: Yes, the auckmid read + catchup-speed still hint to no scum-qt or no scum-intent, i will go into my (after dinner) reread with tragedy as more likely to be town

tl;dr;

- thunder`s continuation of 'my scumslip'-argument makes no sense
- maru`s willingness to hammer someone who according to his own logic could be the doc got forgotten way too easy
- i still believe tragedy to be likely town (due to her auckmid read)
- i`ll reread tonight

[MrTrow]

sorry just had kind of a bad day (reread not yet finished, working on that)

But for sake of keeping things going:
@Thunderwielder, i thought i saw your 'answer',but seriously beginning to doubt it (by skimming last 2 pages)

Apearantly

@Quilford: no counter from me.

this wasn`t explicit enough.
So more explicitly: VT here.

[MrTrow]

Lets see if i got this right.

- thunder knew i was not the roleblocker in #1027 (where he acknoledges the possibility of a counterclaim), while i hadn`t posted yet since the claim (had no chance to counterclaim yet)
- i am to be considered to have scumslipped by pointing to what i considered to be a possible slip, which other townies (right?) have also considered a possible slip just because it turned out to be wrong.
to be more direct on this matter:

Someone is assuming RB-will fail: why, do you know we don`t have one?

Please read the entire line and tell me, where is the slip?

Quilford seemed to have only read half of it (which can be defended):
- replace-list-mod sees need to replace in due to high number of replacements needed (not sure how many are normally required but at that time 22 i believe) while not really that interested in playing
- roleblocker being drawn a lot more to remarks regarding roleblocker.

If i had to vote now: probably cephrir but wouldn`t be surprised if post reread it would be thunder (most of my notes on him were written when i had him as town)

[sincerity]PS Sorry for your bad day, I hope it gets better[/sincerity]

Thanks, i have a day off tomorrow, everything(including the reread) should be alright around then

[MrTrow]

Ok done rereading.
Keeping my suspicion (and hypothetical vote) on Cephrir
Hoppster pretty clear town
Thunder quite likely scum (+ can be linked to cephrir)

Tragedy / Amrun not clear yet (haven`t read their links, mainly have minor things on both)


Lets see what we have:

Spoiler: OMGUS @ Cephrir, yeah right

Since when am I one of your suspects, Trow?

uhm lets see what someone you do listen to has to say about this

Post 867 MR TROW: This is the first time he deviates from Maruchan. ISO #21. Just thought I'd note it.

Who did you replace again?

Need me to restate the maru-cases?
While i`m at it should i add the detail(yes i do consider this a relatively minor thing) saul`s amrun/maru/glowball- prediction could only be completely shattered by a glow-town-slip and maru hammered glowball

[spoiler='the slip', what slip]

Someone is assuming RB-will fail: why, do you know we don`t have one?

Please read the entire line and tell me, where is the slip?

Still no one has found an actual answer to this yet.
In case i need to rephrase to avoid bogus 'yes i did'-responses:
What in that question (DO NOT DISREGARD THE QUESTION) indicates i my slot to have picked-the-poison?
Can ANYONE give a good reason why delta`s flip is in any way relevant to the question above?

Or to be 'more hands on':

"Someone is assuming RB will fail". This implies that he knows there IS one.

This is absolute BS, there is no way i can imply that i know that

THERE IS A ROLEBLOCKER

, while accusing someone of

KNOWING THERE ISN`T A ROLEBLOCKER

.[/spoiler]

Spoiler: @Amrun

Was he?

Yes, he freaking was, from day 1, and that never changed.

The only thing i could find was that you and him(them) were likeminded therefore of prob-same allignment.
Although by itsself just fine, it is no reason to call

INTERESTING.

RoboThor was obvtown, though.

On a roleblock on now dead RoboThor claim (which was why i was looking for other reasons)

Spoiler: thunder/cephrir(mainly maru) link

thunder calls for out of the box thinking when mothrax and maru are the 2 likely lynches for the day
yet doesn`t to let them off the hook when mothrax is at L-1

thunderwielder defends maru from the accusation he only attacks out of self-preservation by linking to one of his 'lack of care'-bursts
Jumping in to save someone with a totally irrelevant point, the accusation wasn`t 'he always defends himself' it was 'he doesn`t actually scumhunts, unless it`s to discredit his attacker'

-sigh- Wait to blacklist him until post-game please? People play to win, and sometimes that means attacking the integrity of other players.

Here maru jumps in and calls 'discrediting other players' a possible (and acceptable) reason for his posts.
I cannot read this any other way than 'he`s not a bad guy, he`s just being good-scum'

Spoiler: thunder

Lets see if i got this right.

- thunder knew i was not the roleblocker in #1027 (where he acknoledges the possibility of a counterclaim), while i hadn`t posted yet since the claim (had no chance to counterclaim yet)
- i am to be considered to have scumslipped by pointing to what i considered to be a possible slip, which other townies (right?) have also considered a possible slip just because it turned out to be wrong.

1) I knew that there was no reason for a scum to claim roleblocker, certainly not off the top. Unless they were to No Kill and then pre-emptively claim roleblocker in order to force a quick lynch before the real roleblocker could state the case--but that's the only situation where it seems like it could be beneficial. (Really, what's the scenario here? Does a Quilford scum really need to make a false claim, only to draw a counter claim from the real roleblocker and out himself? I don't think so.)
IE, yes, me calling for someone to counter claim was me hoping that there was a scum out there silly enough to do so, so we could catch one easily.
2) I am only now considering the comment as a slip, since the other slip turned out to be wrong and

Ok look above to see why this is bogus (obviously last 3 explanations didn`t work), also the below is in no way relevant to this point.

more importantly

there's a 50% chance that you are scum (just based upon night actions alone), so I'm following up every lead I can and trying to see if there's scum motivation. I am not completely disregarding the fact that we were wrong about the other slip, but looking in to see if there's any value to the other side of the story. The defensiveness that is starting to present itself is making me think that there is value to the other side of the story.

Self-preservation in lylo is a scumtell?

If i had to vote now: probably cephrir but wouldn`t be surprised if post reread it would be thunder (most of my notes on him were written when i had him as town)

Oh my goodness, I don't know how much more OMGUS I can handle.
I've now started attacking you and trying to trap you, and now I'm magically on your suspicions list. For what reasons, pray? Hopefully for reasons other than I am your largest attacker right now... yeah, I can't see any other reasons either.

And what do we have here?
Ow yeah:
- a player with (quite) some town-cred build up
- building a case mainly based on a point which he must know to be completely bogus
- in lylo

Yes, you betting your build-up towncred to get you past that last mislynch using a case you can`t possibly believe yourself was indeed sufficient ground to deem you likely-scum.
Also what trap were you talking about?

me calling for someone to counter claim was me hoping that there was a scum out there silly enough to do so, so we could catch one easily.

Who is supposed to buy this?
You suspected Tragedy and myself and explicity asked us to consider counterclaiming
Yet you explicitly want to prevent anyone but me (timing was Tragedy specific) from falling for this trap

It`s 3am now, got work in the morning, i`ll see how admitting 'the slip' being totally bogus has been avoided tomorrow

[MrTrow]

Quick responses from work:

@Amrun: That you considered RoboThor obv-town because the 2 of you seem to think alike is fine.
your 'INTERESTING' @ RB-claim, read like you considered it a reason to doubt the RB-claim is not
as the fact that the 2 of you seem to think alike doesn`t make everyone else consider him obv-town.
(this was intended as clarification for my question, the rest of the point is mute now, with RT- confirmed and Quilford 'not-countered' by all)

@Cephrir:
Did delta make a statement that could reasonably be read as: he assumed the roleblock would fail (as in there will not be a succesful one)?
Is it logically possible he 'assumed' this because he 'knew' there was no-one who could even try?
Did he actually know this?

And now 'the big one': Does a 'no' on question 3 have any impact on answering question 1 with a truthful 'yes'

@Thunder:
True the N1-RB does make me the logical most likely scum for all non-scumhunters
Also true:
Your statement about 'counterclaims' was to trap is total BS, as your 'since we know he`s not the roleblocker' is just 1 counter-example:
You want scum to counter-claim: but you don`t want me to claim RB or anyone else (At the moment amrun askes tragedy 'are you counterclaiming (come on)') to counter-claim at all

You used the RB-numbers as an answer to 'explain the slip' hiding the detail you can`t explain the slip: BECAUSE there is no slip

As for the connection case:
You steer town in a different direction the moment maru had a (near) 50% likeliness of being the next lynch.
However when that chance has severely dropped you want us to 'not forget the original heading'
Did this combination save Maru`s life: it probably did.

It was 'discredit the witness is a decent tactic':
'discredit the witness' is a scum defence.
'discredit the evidence' is a town one.
a sincere 'please calm down, he`s not an evil person' is not a response one would give to lying scum.

[MrTrow]

rephrase of Nr 2: could one without additional knowledge about 'which powers are in play' conclude a possible scumslip based on 'the statement' in line 1?

[MrTrow]

Can anyone tell me how these 2:

do you know we don`t have one?

This implies that he knows there IS one.

are even remotely compatible?

The latter suggests the existence of a roleblocker, and when he said it yesterday, it could also have been a roleblocker-slip, which is sort of what thunder is saying- but now we know he isn't, so it's suspicious.

Thunder could you clear this up please?
Did you indeed consider 'my slip' a scum or roleblock one?

(just noticed the first clue to the 2 of you not being linked so i would like an answer)

Spoiler: p-edit: Now this is a workable conversation, i like:

1. Still not buying it:
You claim to be after my fakeclaim, while our conversation pretty much started with you stating you won`t believe it.
Or did you really believe that:

Mr. Trow, since he isn't the roleblocker, could have made a slip yesterday. That, combined with Quilford's slot finding him suspicious enough to roleblock him twice,

So Trow and Tragedy... make your cases. OR counter claim Quilford.

these wouldn`t make me notice the claim?

Or were you refering to this?

Mr. Trow, I'd like to ask you a flat out question (since you seem not be reading the thread): are you the roleblocker? Or are you the cop? Are you one of these two roles, or are you vanilla townie? Because if you're one of the two roles, then all suspicion will fall from you and we can get along catching the scum, right?

Which was a result of a discussion about one of the posts above. (which means i have read that one, the question remains)

2: that was my point:

Lets see if i got this right.
- i am to be considered to have scumslipped by pointing to what i considered to be a possible slip, which other townies (right?) have also considered a possible slip just because it turned out to be wrong.

2) I am only now considering the comment as a slip, since the other slip turned out to be wrong and

more importantly

there's a 50% chance that you are scum (just based upon night actions alone), so I'm following up every lead I can and trying to see if there's scum motivation. I am not completely disregarding the fact that we were wrong about the other slip, but looking in to see if there's any value to the other side of the story. The defensiveness that is starting to present itself is making me think that there is value to the other side of the story.

You didn`t really explain 'the slip' and filed the 50% roleblock chance as an answer, which i read as an attempt to hide the fact you didn`t answer the question.

3:
I see 2 possible counters in this part (they can co-exist so i`ll just address both right now)
I called your push to both sides of your -out of the box thinking- request to be probably maru-saving = possibly intended as maru-saving.

a) connection-case, thus useless without a corresponding flip +
c1) links you to mothrax as much as to maru

i disagree with the useless (less usefull: true, completely useless when there aren`t that many townies left, not so much)
the location of this point:
After i called (and showed) cephrir`s case to be false (prob scum-driven), i checked connections with him
Yes you were a logical choice to check, you are driving the case as well, you however were not the center of my connection checks

b) read the votecount/complete situation @ start of 'the out of the box ploy' maru wasn`t in that much danger.
Well you`ve got a bit of a point here.
Tragedy however had her vote on Amrun and had called Amrun/mothrax/maruchan the likely team, so her vote could go either way.
SO was being replaced (thus could go either way).
You also managed to make the 2 wagons not eachother`s backup-option.
So i am willing to give you the 'it was less than 50%'(although there were only 2 candidates) and i admit the somewhat impass (which means there indeed exists a possible town-motivation for that action)

c2) links at least as much to mothrax: simply not true: the moment you shifted emphasis back to 'not letting them off the hook', mothrax was way more likely to be the lynch than maruchan was.

d) not really an argument, more of a conclusion. The point that is actually in there is the 'compare my actions to amrun`s'.
I`m not sure you really want me to do that, if you do, here goes:
- i cannot say the above about amrun.
- maru needed to be saved from cephrir= different light? (really, a non-maru light makes the slot look skummier?).
- there was no need to fake that hammer.

4/5)
Yes i am talking about glowball`s blacklist.
Maru called your (alleged) personal attacks toward glowball to hurt her play (and the rest of the thread) a reasonable play in a game of mafia.
(As long as he appologises post-game, it should be fine)
Thing about this is: It is a (dirty but) reasonable play, as scum: his argument only makes sense if you are scum.
And if he believes you to be scum, why isn`t he voting you?

And if he believed Glowball to be the 'lying scum' in this situation, his actions make even less sense.

[MrTrow]

tl;dr
1: not buying the counter-claim-trap
2: convenient formatting error (hiding the lack of an answer to 'the slip' debate)
3: town motivation for starting 'out of the box' is plausible, timing of ending it shatters potential mothrax-thunder- link the same action could be intended for though
4: maru called it a reasonable (scum) tactic, without calling scum.
5: why comfort a faked rage from lying scum?

[MrTrow]

Thunder, would your answers to the questions you missed (those above the spoiler) be the one that logically follow from the responses you did make, or can i expect an explicit answer in the near future?

Back to the discussion:
Lets see if i got it:

1: The counterclaim call was never really serious except for that 1 time you took my problems with yout 1027 attempt as 'not reading at all'.
2: Your slip-argument is not that much better as i make it out to be, but it was the best you had to try the above.
3: useless/moot, i think we shouldn`t get into a definition-debate like the 'is there fun in 'poking fun' '-thing but about the actual point:
- yes part of the case on you is by connection: with cephrir as, the first i want to lynch and lylo, it makes sense to take him as confirmed scum for the rest of the analysis
- and yes the rest of the case is indeed your attack on me: NOT the fact that you are attacking me, but the fact you are attacking someone, based on a case i didn`t think you could possibly have that much fate in.
Pushing such a case might work, but at the expence of some serious town-credit.
Considering that, if it works you have no need for town-cred, it is a very reasonable move, if you are scum.

4: i understand the frustration at that point (i avoided voting glowball after the initial skim to not feed the flame until i finished the reread to make sure it was warranted), my maru-link point was the following

Wait to blacklist him until post-game please? People play to win, and sometimes that means

attacking the integrity of other players

. Its a part of the game. Don't take it personal, unless he fails to apologize post-game.

Town attacks the integrity of cases.
Scum attacks the integrity of players.
There is no town-motivation in doing anything that warrants a post-game appology (it was D1 so the exception of 'PR-(prob) guilty on a very town-looking player' also couldn`t apply)

My vote is still on Cephrir.
I`m still not completely sold on your story (there probably are things in the above you don`t agree with, if not there still are some issues)
but the last few post have earned you a more-town status (you`re still my nr2 scum, but closer to 3 than to 1).

p-edit @ Cephrir:

My point:

do you know we don`t have one?

he knows there IS one.

Are mutually exclusive
therefore there is no way

Someone is assuming RB-will fail: why, do you know we don`t have one?

This implies that he knows there IS one.

these are compatible.

Does the above version (falsely implying absolute certainty from your end) look better?
Can you now be bothered to disprove that statement, or actually present a case?

[MrTrow]

it's a pretty small part of the reason I want to lynch MrTrow.

Very well: present your case.

@Thunder:
4: Actually the answer is NO on both accounts:
No i do not (nor did i ever) believe you were attacking Glowball`s integrity
No that is also not the point that matters: The point is Maru did and didn`t attack you for it.

2 / 3 )

I was more reactionfishing than anything
.. And that's why I'm still suspecting you ....
I still can't shake the defensive quality to your first response to my pressure

Care to explain what was wrong with it?

Mainly the initial response you`re talking about.

Cause at the moment i see the following:
- You attacked me with a case i didn`t think you could possibly believe yourself
- I counter the case (initially in 3 lines, written out upon request)
- You keep up the 'slip case' (with a lot of support from cephrir)
- I attack you for pushing a case 'you can`t possibly believe yourself' (while having some spare town-cred and in lylo)
- Your counter: OMGUS
- Cephrir keeps up the 'slip-case' and the OMGUS (with the statement i never called his slot scummy since he replaced in (false b.t.w.) )
- We actually talk about it resulting in you admitting you indeed didn`t buy your own case to begin with.(was mainly reaction fishing)
- Cephrir drops 'ths slip case' (without considering to have 'lost it')

Which leads me to:

- Thunder did push a case he didn`t believe in, as a player with town-cred in lylo. defended by 'i was reaction fishing'
- Cephrir pushed the same case as 'an actual believer' but drops it the moment he`s on his own.

So yeah, i`m still not completely sold on thunder (he flat out admitted to my case (short of the motivation)).
It`s somewhat consistent both ways

Cephrir however is opportunistic with his case and yet has to present the 'new one'

hypo-vote stays
would like cases by cephrir and amrun
content of any kind by tragedy
hoppster = prob-town (laying low a bit longer would probably have gotten me lynched)

[MrTrow]

AMRUN IF YOU SEE THIS AND ARE TOWN: UNVOTE and read

putting your vote back up if you don`t like is fine.(well sort of but you get the point)


guess here comes another addition to the 'reactive' argument against me:

You also have focused primarily on the "slip", and used that as a case for me to be scum--which is just transparent OMGUS. We've already established that creating a case against someone does not make them scummy--or Hoppster would be scummy for his Mothrax tunnelling. You haven't responded in it in a way that's - hey, you're actually mistaken, but that's come out as "hey, you shouldn't be making this case, it's stupid, you must be scum!" Which are hardly the same thing.

- Did hoppster come with arguments, he didn`t believe in? (i don`t think so)
Yes my argument was 'OMGUS':
I believed you didn`t buy your own case. Pushing a case YOU don`t even believe is scummy.
The best part of this: You flat out admitted this.

Mr. Trow, since he isn't the roleblocker, could have made a slip yesterday. That, combined with Quilford's slot finding him suspicious enough to roleblock him twice, and with the other reads I have on everyone, makes me think he's one of the three. PLUS, we DID have a no Kill night one.

1: The counterclaim call was never really serious except for that 1 time you took my problems with yout 1027 attempt as 'not reading at all'.

1) yup

There wasn`t really anything else in there that could be addressed.
But if some shots on those are required (yes reactive i know)
A lot of emphasis on well...... the very reason doc+rb is the popular choice (i wasn`t actively around D1 + it`s some lack of suspicion that is required to be the rb-target here)

Also

I'm getting bored with this game too.

Cool cool cool. I'm happy for conversation. I'm happy that you're not just tunnelling, but you're listening. That's nice for a change (not with you, but with the general population of the town--those that have been lynched, anyway)

bored of the game within 30 hours of a good conversation for a change, yeah right


Now for the mainly defensive ones:

@Trow, looking forward to your Maruchan read, and maybe some views of your own, rather making up ones that don't seem to make sense and jumping on my vote (I'm really sick of people sheeping me without good reason). You said you'll meta him. Is your whole case based upon meta? How much is? Percentage will do again.

Me sheeping you?

Wasn`t my vote on maru for most of day 2?
wasn`t your 'day 2 maru case' mainly present in mine (true the 'lurk to reaction-test' was brought up before)

You don't offer your opinions unless pressured, and when you did offer your opinions, they were very singular and on larger suspects.

True maru was a main target (the biggest wagon) when i finished my reread, but no new stuff and ONLY on larger suspects?

Who pointed out maru was willing to hammer the one who according to his own logic could be the doc?
Who pointed out that robocopter became active TWICE when this was required to save mothrax?

B.T.W thunder: how are you so sure both my partners still have to bus me?

[MrTrow]

Me sheeping you?

Yup, because I voted, and then you jumped on it. Ta da.
Before that, your entire "contribution" to a Maruchan case was for quite weak, if not already stated, reasons. Only after the quote you quoted did you start to actually try and provide something. So, yeah, you were sheeping me.

Spoiler: Your near end of D2 maru-case:

- RQS stuff – holds no water.
- Same with the repeating of Glowball’s phrasing
- The caring vs no-caring debate also has no impact on his alignment (I’m addressing these things, because I think they were used as scum points against Maruchan, and if someone can explain to me WHY, I would appreciate it, because I can’t see anything from them)

as stated empty points

- Post 63 – Takes credit for the discussion that’s happening. Also says the word “town” A LOT in that post. Although, I suppose this could just be a playstyle post, but it does seem a little off.
- I buy his reaction to the two votes on him. I don’t think that’s a scum reaction. It was early in the game, and nobody needed to worry. However, I always want to take the time to quell people’s fears rather than just accept them, because then they’re not wasting their time on me, but can devote it to finding the scum, so I don’t know how I feel about that point either. It DOES seem a little cavalier.
- Now up to post 212… I can’t find too much content in the posts that are happening thus far.
- Oh Maruchan replies to Glowball’s case here. I still don’t see her case. The only point that I feel holds any water could be her last one. Not about not answering questions, but about Maruchan defending more than he is scum hunting.
- I guess it could be understandable that he was defending more than scumhunting, because he was the lead wagon, but I would have liked to see more reaching out, rather than just “back off” behaviour.

as stated, prob playstyle-stuff

- big point (I’m bolding because this list is getting long, and I think this is the most relevant information thus far. Post 329. The “Good you caught me subverting the game=town points for you” thing. I don’t know if I buy it. Especially because that’s when the heat was slowly falling away from him. It’s convenient that he only decided to do this “gambit” when there was distraction leading away from his leading wagon. I don’t quite buy it. This is probably my biggest piece of evidence for Maruchan.

Ok i`ll give you this one

- Nothing to note until post 526. This is an odd post. Maruchan, what did you mean by this post? It has the same feeling as Lane’s PR comment. So that kind of weirds me out.

"if i was a doc "

(i would be doing exactly what this player just did):

trying to be the next 'clumsy town'?

(you even quoted a clumsy-town rather than scum for this)

- few weak 'trying to look town' points (#101 calling thunder town based on the weakest part of his #89,

hey i`m also a clumsy-town @#526

)

- But 527 is a good post against Mothrax.

- And actually, reviewing, his jump to Glowball was something he had already stated the day (real time) before.

pro-maru arguments

- I haven’t even touched his wall of case on Trow. Well, okay, I’ve looked at it, but there’s too much anger in it for me to digest. Actually, okay, no. I agree with Mr. Trow’s fourth point in his list in the first quote under Maruchan’s spoiler. (wow, that’s confusing). And the fifth point, I’m not sure I’m satisfied with Maruchan’s response.

can`t exactly (or even remotely) follow this sentence(as in i can`t track down the locations) but i see you agreeing to my point in a maru case and concluding something from maru`s response to my case

I see exactly 1 argument against maru that didn`t come from me (or at least was noted before) .
So i`m sheeping you, just because you happened to show up before i did the next day? (and still stuck to my read?)

[MrTrow]

Nice game.
Too bad about my first lynch though

@maru: you still believe my cases to be bad: do you mean you actually consider your 'when i`m a doc i pr hunt' to be completely unrelated (for example)

@thunder:I should have been on you sooner (the instant you called me sheeping you), think is i post well 'hard to read' a lot, i had you as town before that point and thus believed you actually missed what i was saying iirc the only thing that changed during your entire attack on 'my bad/sheeping case' was 'the willingness to hammer a potential doc' the rest was mainly rephrasing the same case over and over.
I was actually pretty close to stating "if you are scum, you`re definately a player i would join a game for" during the D4 debate.Stating it now: hopefully see you next game.

@cephrir: i thought you had pinned the RB before i read through the qt: didn`t your catch-up-wall contain a wtf on so`s vote on me? (exactly the 'd2-shift' you didn`t find in the qt) (yes i know this involves 20-20 hindsight)

@quilford: if you didn`t believe it was the block that resulted in the N1-NK and you had such a strong scumread on 2 of the top 3 players who were after me, why didn`t you speak up?

@hoppster: wait-what: you were actually trying to get (at least) quilford to become lazy? man you`re good (i still believe that your call to halt my lynch until you had the chance to attack the main debateable part of the case on me has kept me from getting lynched for a while )

@Xalxe: I agree with saul about how the 'not ending the night till replacement' could draw in night actions (couldn`t think of a single role as which i wouldn`t target that slot because of it (until wifom @ other roles came to mind)) and i wonder: was it one of his 'diary entries' that inspired your 'no Mist wasn`t killed who gave you that idea?'
Other than that: i`m considering seconding your nomination. (do miss my lynch picture though (then again, how do you hang someone with an arrow in his forehead))